What’s Really Going On in Russia?
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- Last weekend, in the course of about 36 hours, Vladimir Putin faced - and then survived - one of the most serious challenges to his rule in over 20 years. An armed rebellion led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of a Russian mercenary group, took control of a southern military town, and then advanced toward Moscow, coming within about 125 miles of the city. Then, as suddenly as the rebellion began, it was over: Prigozhin was quickly exiled to Belarus without facing criminal charges - an outcome that shocked many Russia watchers.
Why did Prigozhin stage this rebellion in the first palace? Why did Putin respond the way he did? What are the implications for the future of Putin’s rule - and the broader war in Ukraine?
There are few people who understand the Putin regime as deeply as Stephen Kotkin, a pre-eminent scholar of Russian history at Stanford. We discuss Prigozhin’s complex motivations, why Putin didn’t shut down Prigozhin’s critiques before they escalated to the point of armed rebellion, how to interpret reports that members of Putin’s inner circle were aware of the rebellion plot, how Prigozhin’s march created an “unwitting referendum” that could threaten the stability of Putin’s regime, the bizarre cease-fire arranged by Belarusian president Aleksandr Lukashenko, why Putin didn’t kill or jail Prigozhin, how this series of events could impact the outcome of the war in Ukraine and more.
(Note: This episode was recorded on Wednesday, June 28. It does not reflect any news developments that have emerged since.)
Book Recommendations:
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You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-....
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Engineering by Jeff Geld and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
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You need to put Stephen Kotkin's name in the title of this video. He is in top demand these days. Nobody does it better.
Agree, but this UA-cam Channel has no SEO - no keywords, and as you way, no idea on how to keyword the title. They are missing out on building their subscribers.
His name certainly should be in the title. UA-cam recommended it me without that, presumably because I watch every Kotkin video I see.
Yes, I search for anything on UA-cam that is Kotkin regularly. He makes me feel smarter whenever I am finished listening to his sage words.
Your mum did it better last week 😂😂😂
It is the new york times……….
I find Professor Kotkin endlessly enlightening and he makes me see the world differently. There’s only a handful of people, who just from interviews, that can pull that off. This was a really good piece.
Kotkin is fine as long as he sticks to Russia. Then every now and then he feels the need to turn into an infantile Trumpoid and make some silly, disjointed and unconnected, attack on President Biden or Democrats in general. This is truly weird behavior on his part, some sort of throw-back, perhaps, to when he may have felt the -- quite superfluous -- need to establish his reputation by making friends on the right.
He has every right to feel secure in his reputation. There's no need for him to play the partisan half-wit, as he so often, so sadly, does.
Read his books, they will forge the way you look at the world
@@arsalanziazie9812 I just got through Professor Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands which was part of his Yale online course called The Making of Ukriaine. I am still recovering from the psychic horror of that journey. I have to cleanse my pallet with some campy sci-fi before i can deal with the cruelty of man again.
I promise to give it a go. Any recommendations?
I find Kolkin to be a person living in an Ivory Tower.
I could like to ask him about his thought about the sabotage of Nоrd Stream 2.
And Russia is weak; Well Take a good look at America infrastructure and inner cities and the poverty. And the health insurance crisis.... I'd like Koltkin to look at the mirror and look at America ....
By the way, I am an American citizen - traveling in Russia at this moment. I see beautiful people and places...
@@jacklam9843 What’s with the pity trip brother? Do you enjoy playing the victim? You probably don’t see it that way but it truly comes across that way.
Definitely, not the attitude of an entrepreneur building a new world.
Amazing interview - totally agree, however, with a previous comment - it would have been far more respectful to mention professor Stephen Kotkin's name in the video title!
Stephen Kotkin is incredible. I'm surprised he's not listed in the title of this video. He offers a brilliant perspective on what's happening and though he keeps his cards close to his chest, he seems to lean right as he defends the cold war, the free economy, and the idea of Western Civilization describing it as rule of law, separation of powers, limited govt, private property, and defense of liberty. He states that Western Civilization is extremely powerful, it has the financial system, the institutions, and we just needs to remember that. Another brilliant historian is Timothy Snyder, who leans left and has said that the West needs to do more to address it's major problems to prevent a slide into authoritarianism. I'd love to hear Kotkin debate Timothy Snyder on the question of how much economic inequality plays a role in the rise of authoritarianism, how much our reliance on oil and gas puts us at risk of authoritarianism, whether should we recognize the greatness of the West so that we don't take it for granted, or should we put our attention on the wrongs of the past committed by the West? Do we prevent authoritarianism with a tradition of limited govt, or should the focus be on policy and actions govt should take to address problems?
Great comment! For me Snyder and Kotkin are some of the most interesting intellectuals of the last decade.
It's interesting how people say Jews don't run things yet they make up less than 2 percent of the US population and the host is Jewish and so is his expert.
I suppose I am somehow racist because I think all types of people should be heard.
@stephenbruner: What a thoughtful comment. Thank you. Yes please let's have both of these edifying scholars discuss those great questions, but please please, can we leave the politicising and polarising aside?
@bunjijumper...yes it does seem that is a rather racist comment. Notice that you have just yourself made your own voice heard too - these days on the web, anyone who wants to, can say almost anything, so nobody is stopping you from being a serious history scholar or an earnest podcast host. Just check first if you have something good to say. These gentlemen are not talking about being Jewish, they on a journey to understand the state of the world and the human condition. There is so much to learn here. A proverb: A man's spirit is a deep well. A wise one draws it out.
This podcast is edifying. Let's just enjoy the conversation between these two honourable people.
@@elsacooper1769 I am just wondering how other people can be successful if one religion has a stranglehold on things, like why no Muslim experts? Are they just stupid ?
My favorite thing about Kotkin is his ability to be extremely rigorous and comprehensive, while also keeping a light and accessible atmosphere. He also never answers just your question, but ten others on the same topic that you never thought to ask. No short answers to be found here. And that's just fine with me.
Or lying without a red face."Russia blew up her own dam"....LMAO!!!
Excellent update from our friend Stephen Kotkin. I like it when Kotkin says he got something wrong and now with more information he sees something in a new light. I can never get enough of this very special man.
Quite right, and something that should be normal on the left and the right. But, sadly, its pretty rare. Trump has taken not admitting mistakes to new heights of absurdity and its doing a lot of damage.
Thank you VERY much for bringing Kotkin on. He is one of my absolute favorites to listen to with respect to anything specifically on Russian area studies, as well as any host of topics that he weaves into them. A brilliant mind with a knack for keeping it real and accessible to the listening public. Well done, Ezra.
More Steven Kotkin, please! Thanks. ✅
Found your channel today. Thank you Professor Kotkin for a riveting and thoughtful observation of Russia's situation.
Professor Kotkin is an American treasure
Stunning insights from Kotkin, absolute beauty!
Stephen Kotkin, super clarity, impressive. It is amazing how clearly he explains what we know, what we don't know, how we should think about what is going on.
We should think about how to get a peace deal.
@@eddievangundy4510 😂
Kotkin is the best public academic at the moment
Kotkin has astonishing and openminded insight. Always worth not just hearing but worth considering.
I wouldn't call him open-minded. He certainly has a point of view.
Alexey Navalny never explicitly said that Crimea belongs to Russia. He did say that Crimea is a complicated question some years ago. What's more important is that after the 2022 invasion Navalny, who is in prison, was able to publish a manifesto in which he explicitly calls Crimea Ukrainian and calls for transfer of Crimea back to Ukraine
Then he can forever forget about any political aspirations he might have had, not to mention that according to Russian constitution the President cannot be a formal convict. He is now just a convicted revolutionary, but since no one else in Russia does his job he will not have any ways out of this, and no one will support him for his position on Ukraine. If you support the West you are against Russia, if you are against Russia your place is in prison or under ground, 90% are sharing this view.
Navalny is bought by the west. Do you really put your faith in a man who creates a 6200 name long get ridoflist. THAT is very Stalin.
It's interesting to me if A.Navalny recognizes the state of Israel?
My ancestors have been living in Crimea since 1892, in 1959 Nikita Khrushchev handed over Crimea to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, when the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia did not demand this territory back...
I don't want to talk about Navalny, I know that Western sponsors supported him
@@user-hv9vn4fi4w Of course he recognizes the state of Israel, why wouldn't he? Frankly, I have a hard time understanding the point of your comment. And no, most of Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundantion funding came from donations from within Russia, although I'm sure there were ones from abroad as well.
Everybody in Crimea speaks Russian is happy to be part of Russia. Geeze you people.
Kotkin's insight of the situation in Russia is astounding, really. Most folks from so-called think tanks don't really comprehend what's going on here, yet Stephen does. Brilliant mind.
Kotkin Nation!
I am back in Moscow for the first time since March 2022. The city has an unbelievable amount of development, it is going super high tech, and people are generally in good spirits.
Are you homosexual?
Love Stephen Kotkin - put him in the title and your views will sky rocket.
So true. Just saw him on TV rain which averages 3k-4k a video and he had 90k.
Nobody has Stephen Kotkins ability to ‘connect the dots’. Thank you very much for a fabulous interview.
Would have been nice to name Mr. Kotkin in the title, but thank you very much for the conversation and the upload!
You are somewhat behind the curve. He stopped being Mr Kotkin when he earned his PhD; he became Dr Kotkin. He stopped being Dr Kotkin when he became Professor Kotkin.
Great show, deeply thought-providing and insightful. Thank you Ezra and Prof. Kotkin.
Superior knowledge, intellect and insights. Stephen Kotkin is also an incredibly gifted presenter and storyteller. An absolute pleasure to listen to and learn from. I dream of meeting him in person.
Outstanding, incredible interesting potcast! Thank you very much!
Oh great. Finally someone who knows what's really going on.
Great presentation! Kotkin knows so much more than any of us citizens and he shares it adroitly. Thanks for interviewing him so well.
Thank you, Professor Kotkin
Very complex viewpoint that seems more insightful than I’ve heard anywhere else
Agree with other commenters. I seek out Kotkin interviews and only accidentally came across your show. You’re a great host, too!
Excellent talk! Very informative. Brings light to the inside of the war .
Satisfying intelligent and thoughtful format.
Kotkin is one of the most insightful and Enlightening public intellectuals these days. He's a conservative this leftist looks up to as a role model. His intellect and stoicism are truly inspiring.
Learned a lot from this show. Thank you.
Wow Kotkin reads about 120 books a year. Geez no wonder his interviews are so fascinating.
Really informative. Thank you!
Lol, like I’d trust the NYT to give me true analysis
Klein is an intellectual midget, a woke warrior but Kotkin is a next level genius. He is the best analyst of Russia/USSR out there.
D.A., J.D., NYC
I hear you loud and clear.
This is so amazing! Thank you!
How about live streaming the video as well?
Before Wagner coupe Prigozin was almost as popular in Russia as Putin. After coupe Prigozin's rating crashed, Putin's rating skyrocketed
Great show on Russia and it’s current malaise with Ukraine. Now I know Professor Kotkins secret, he reads so many books, it certainly inspires me to read much more!
Amazing interview. Let's hear more from him.
Lies are simple, good looking and easy. Truth is complex, homely and arduous. Thank you Prof. Kotkin for doing the heavy lifting and breaking it down for us.
Ya know, not for anything, but why aren't erudite and savvy people like Mr. Kotkin not tapped for some high-up government position where their expertise can really be used to serve the rest of us?? What an amazing insight this man has on the current situation.
Because being a sycophant is more important than being savvy and erudite in those circles
I'm sure he's widely read in the State Department and DoD and the government funds a lot of research.
@@marshalltito Russian Troll? The sycophants are way more numerous in Putin’s regime. And, there were too many to count in Trump’s White House!
@@marshalltito *sycophant
He bloody well already IS, are you illiterate and without fingers.
Saturday morning, coffee, toast, Kotkin. Success.
This reminds me of the Showa restoration in Japan. The emperor was challenged by people claiming to be helping him or obeying his orders.Opponents were murdered, the secret police had a lot of power. There was even a rebellion when the emperor ordered surrender...
Kotkin's Number One, without equal, Thank You,
Corruption and incompetence in Russia are real. However, incompetence and corruption aren't all consuming. Countries which have both of these can still be quite effective . In America we have a tendency to overestimate the abilities of democracies and underestimate those of undemocratic places. The USSR and Russia of today are very different places; however, our foreign policy and public attitudes here don't seem to reflect that.
Because Pennywise( the evil clown) Putin wants to restore the Soviet Reunion. Sorry but it ain't gonna happen, Pennywise Putin.
what is the music that closed this show? i heard Izak Jones. what more?
Wonderful stuff, thanks
Wow very insightful. Thank you!
Stephen Kotkin is a treasure of knowledge. And he does a great Joe Pesci impression!
Always enlightening to hear from Stephen Kotkin. Brilliance, wrapped up in humility and a sense of humor.
A brilliant mind. Logical and process driven analysis of history affecting the present
* you will get a lot more views if you add Prof Kotkin to your title page.
He explains the confusing current situation that makes sense to common people.
Hell yes Mr. Kotkin!
10 thumbs up from Holland!
Excellent interview!! Wow.
why did the podcast stop syncing on apple podcast?
His perspective is always great
Professor Kotkin makes a very compelling argument about the need for Ukraine to be integrated into the Western world. Especially with a methodical and gentle but assertive presentation. I can't help but see the American/Western chauvinism element in the points he makes. Everything Russian is seen as chaotic and wrong and needs to be "taken out".
Yeah his ideas are no help at all. He would have Ukraine and NATO with troops on the Russian border. Oh yeah they're already was a large Ukrainian Army right on the Russian border that we helped establish.
Excellent!
It's not paranoia if someone's really after you.
Stephen is the best
speculation obviously, but brilliant nonetheless. superb talk and some very good questions asked.
Superb piece.
One of the favorite phrases I’ve learned in the last couple years or so is of the hand holding the tail of the scorpion as a moments defense against it sting, that it will eventually have to let go to the coming sting. And I love that phrase so much because it shows just how much the master and the slave, the upper hand to the lower share the same fate. And in most cases true, in most cases what was determined at the start of such antagonistic relationship, and so it is of Russian aggression, paranoia toward Ukraine and NATO. They entered the war of their own bluster, they thought that they could be the victor with such few exhaustion but not so, not by a mile. And through attrition not just Russia but all governments that stand with it, will give way to an ironclad defense of nations standing for their sovereign and rights which are tricked down to its people.
But now I tire as it is four o clock in the mourning. My fleeting though shall stand unfinished as I must get some sleep to wake up for a doctors appointment. Am I a space cadet like Prigozhin starting an idea which I fail to complete, while I prefer thinking of myself as someone that is in desperate need of sleep, before tomorrow.
Stephen Kotkin 👍
Nah.
Great podcast!
Excellent.❤
What’s going on with a title that doesn’t headline that Stephen Kotkin is the interviewee? 2:51
I love listening to Stephen Kotkin and this is one of my favourites.
When is Stalin V3 being released Professor Kotkin?
Incredible 👍
"It isn't until the tide goes out that we find out who has been swimming naked." I think this quote is attributed to an American financial entrepreneur ( Warren Buffet? ) but it certainly applies to the Kremlin in this Ukraine debacle.
It does? Who do you think is winning this war?
@@eddievangundy4510 The quote applies to Kremlin leadership, not the war per se. Who is winning is beside the point.
Reminds me of the SA in Germany. Regular army turning against the rouge private army. Progozhin is Putin's Ernst Rohm. Putin will have to move to a Night of the Long Knives, otherwise he looks weak in the eyes of the army.
And now, one month after your comments, two months after his daring march to Moscow, he was shot down from the sky with his entire aides. Is this a surprise for you?
@@pcechan About as surprising as the sun rising in the east.
@@JAMAICADOCK
You are so right about him equal to Ernst Röhm of the Sturm-Abteilung in dritten Reich. Nacht der langen Messer is now becoming the Flight of the vertical crash.
I think NYT is mostly total wank, but this is a very good interview and Kotkin is a kind of genius.
Are you MAGA ?
Agreed. NYT did well here. Good one, Robbie.
Why not video live stream this conversation?
Kotkin is the BEST !
You guys buried the lead by not having Stephen Kotkins name in the title.
I have enjoyed several of Prof. Kotkin's UA-cam videos. And I was impressed with the seemingly simple statement that 'we won the cold war'. I have always been of the opinion that Communism as practiced by the USSR was always more Russian than Soviet, more nationalism than internationalism. A new cold war is underway.
I wonder whether the invasion of Ukraine would have happened if Trump had lost in 2016. Was Putin counting on a weakened NATO to enable his conquest of Ukraine?
And what about the impact of Brexit on NATO and the West in general? The UK decided that being European wasn't all that important. How did Putin read that?
Stephen is most admirably polite and cautious in his analysis. My take on what is Prigozhins' fate/future is one of timing. Putin will be quietly satisfied that while Prigozhins' time is limited, in the meantime he will be looking over his shoulder constantly. Putin takes pleasure in hurting others. It is a big part of his personality disorder. There would be unnecessary problems if Putin lashed out against Prigozhin and his supporters immediately so the timing is crucial. His moves are slow, cautious, and devastating.
Your observation aged like a fine red wine. No surprise though for anyone knowing Kremlin tactics. He's 'the murderers murderer'. Well both were.
Great thinker! Young at their best!
Instant Like for Kotkin.
There can never be too many interviews with Stephen Kotkin.
Music is too loud!
Professor Kotkin's insight is excellent. In closing, the world needs to find away to have a place for Russia in the end.
Find away place for you but not for Russia!
Thank you. Minsk 2 would have been fine, a neutral Ukraine would have been fine. Austria has been neutral for 60 years.
@@user-hv9vn4fi4wget out of here with that nonsense.
One we week after this interview, was recorded, we heard Lawrow talk for the first time about the coup. He talked about this all being a ,,Schlamassel'' using the German original word.. Now look where this word originates from :
Schlamassel: When something doesn't go as planned and the situation turns out to be quite muddled, we like to say the word mess. The expression has its origins in the Yiddish "schlimmasl", which means "misfortune". This in turn goes back to "masel", which means "luck".
Remembers when journalism was about asking questions
Now it’s just a narrative platform for the highest bidder
Excellent guest.
Crimea has a majority Russian population because the Tatars were deported, the Ukrainians left, and the Russian military and their families moved in. They can just return to Russia. I heard there are apartments free in Vorkuta.
Wow, you're so knowledgeable on Russian history. Your input is well appreciated.
And when was that, a hundred years ago?
@@eddievangundy4510 Tatars were deported by Stalin and again in 2014, Ukrainians like Denis Davydov left in 2014.
Steven Kotkin restores people's faith in the Easter bunny.
Im here for Dr Kotkin
Stephen might know what's going on but everything has a Perspective
after hours of listening to experts, pundits and all manner of speculators...some Kotin clarity. I came across it 8 days later because Kotkin's name wasn't in the title.
Premier Nikita Krushchev of the U.S.S.R. knew that the brains are in New York city; not Washington D.C. He also knew that the editorial section of the New York Times is the U.S. State Department. In order to do a hostile takeover of the U.S. State Department Premier Krushchev knew that he had to be taken seriously. That meant getting off the NYT'S funny section and on to the front page. If he was successful it would be considered quite an accomplishment in the Kremlin, but it would take some real funny business! ___ 2 years after Krushchev met Fidel Castro on the streets of New York and were photographed clowning around there was The Cuban Missile Crises.
The first two sections I found had strong arguments. But look for the roots of antipathy between Prigozhin and Shoigu in Syria. I think Mark Galeotti talked about it in In Moscow's Shadow.
The last section I found weaker. It's not right to say that Crimea is Russian without mentioning that the native population (of Crimean Tatars) has been replaced by Russia with Russians. This is what colonists always attempt and often achieve, but it's bad behaviour, and shouldn't be the unchallenged determinant of the colony's future. And in spite of centuries of demographic manipulation by Russia, Crimea voted to remain with Ukraine in the last fair referendum in 1991. True, Navalny's reaction to the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 2014 was that it was not a sandwich, but you have to add that in March this year he said it should return to Ukraine. So we can't ignore Russia? Why not? We ignored Russia for thousands of years and were not the worse for it 🙂 Who's to say its borders are inviolable? Certainly not the Kremlin. And anyway, all empires come to an end sooner or later.
The insight of professor Kotkin is incredible. It is always a pleasure to listen to his thoughts on the subject matters of his expertise. He makes complexes understandable.
Let the man talk!