One of the first selling points I remember hearing was, besides it's primary coastal role, was to free up destroyers for smaller interdiction missions and humanitarian relief. Then in the event of war they would be used mainly as anti-sub platforms, it was known engaging larger enemy surface ships was not recommended and evasion using their speed advantage was the plan.
@@Sam-le6sp Missiles and projectiles don't work on a torpedo under water. And yes they do run the attack speed that fast by creating a pocket of gas or steam in front of the torpedo.
How they going to track a submarine? Last I checked they had no towed array and going active (if they have a sonar?) will just get them killed. Spent 24 yrs in the Navy doing towed array ops (SQR-15 and 19) and the name of the game is quiet!
Not really controversial, everyone who knows about that program knows it failed HARD and will only (hopefully) act as proof of concept and test platform. The LCS is controversial because contractors/PMs/politicians try to pretend a program which has realized few of its goals and failed at nearly all its innovative facets is a success.
@@mrchocolatebean8878 The gun failed the ships are amazing. If they get the modified Virginia payload module upgrade the Zumwalt may still prove to be the way forward. The LCS is just hot garbage. Both are a failure of strategy and tactics. They are weapon systems customized to deal with a low level opponent not a near peer threat. We don't need new billion dollar systems to deal with pirates and 3rd world dictators.
Defense contractors should be on the bill for any problems that arise. We should not be paying for their mistakes. Lockheeds modification to fix the problem with their design should come from the profits they make off of it. Stop paying for contractors to mess up
That partially already exists, as often payment is often fixed at the beginning and the designers have to figure it out. This can actually, as private companies will only take big risks if you offer them more money up front. Of course, we all know you'd always argue in favor of what costs you less tax dollars.
Lockheed didn’t design the combining gear box (the part that breaks), they outsourced that to a company they believed had more experience in that type of design.
@@fatnlazychinc Lockheed already does that. Everything they touch goes through numerous rounds of upgrades and fixes and repairs because they are just loaded top to bottom with problems that take decades to iron out…..Which conveniently gives Lockheed billions of dollars in maintenance contracts.
LCS was meant to be a cost-saving ship... it was supposed to be a "modular ship", that by swapping Anti-Air, Anti-Sub, Anti-Mine "Modules", LCS can do various jobs (and the navy can save by cutting "single purpose ship" like the Mine-hunting Ospreys and sub-hunting Perrys). The problem is... this idea never worked, its too costly to swap modules, but all the negativity that comes with the "modular design" got added into to cost and system complexity anyway. Even the littoral hull design, is considered less valuable now after the war on terror ended. From an engineering perspective (both trained electrical engineer and project manager), I only feel sad for the outcome, and I don't think it is much a project-managing issue. The technical complexity was underestimated, and we simply didn't have the technical maturity needed for the "swapping modules" technology..... In Hindsight, the moment the higher-ups decided to go with the modular design, its Game-Over for the engineering and project-managing team... its basically asking using 90s technology to design a Tesla Electric Car in the 2010s.... (its not entirely "impossible", but don't do it!). No engineering/project management team can save you from that, and this decision was made very early in the program phase.
The US Coast Guard does not normally operate off the Coasts of Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, Australia and the Starights of Hormuz - THAT is why the USNavy needs Littoral Class Ships .. the US Coast Guard has their own that operate in US Coastal Waters ..
@@bradhartliep879 Why in the hell is US navy operating in other countries' littoral water anyway. If you want to dominate the world, don't expect you can do it cheaply.
@@bradhartliep879 LCS would get instant fcked up if it tried to operate say near Chinese or Iranian coast. Their stealth is a myth. Airborne early warning radar could easily spot them from 100 miles away, then a few subsonic anti ship missile would finish those LCS which lacks any self defense capabilities. LCS is a junk because it could not perform the task it was designed for. Plain and simple.
The LCS mission has NOTHING to do with the Coast Guard. They're about as far apart as conceivable. I don't remember the Coast Guard being tasked to fight in off coastlines. Maybe look at what the Coast Guard actually does?
@@erikanybody4298 Lately, sure. In ww2 coasties often manned various craft, especially landing craft in the islands assaults. That being said, I do not know of any heavily armed coast guard ships protecting convoys against surface raiders, subs or enemy aircraft then. But, the coast guard did man nearly 400 skips then and almost 80 of them were LST's and etc. These days, not so much. Those WHEC mini cruisers pack a punch, so they are serious business when going about their LEO ops.
Have they looked into selling them to smaller nations? They would be ideal for small nations that have no need for a blue water navy. Another option would be moving them to the Coast Guard.
That's actually what they're trying to do! They lost bid with Greece just a few weeks ago, it's basically competing with corvettes from other countries
@@matthewhuszarik4173 No. LCS are meant to function along coats but the US also had a need for them to be ocean going and super fast. No other country needs those requirements and they present extra costs. Coastal nations just want bog standard corvettes.
The ships are still modular... but we don't change the modules. Sounds like "Modularity was a stupid idea; it would be better to build the ship the way you want it in the first place".
And the modules that exist don't work. But other than that it's perfect. So we undercrew forward deployed DDGs to man these unarmed, short ranged missile sponges.
As a former USN sailor, the ship has NEVER been capable of the missions it was supposed to be capable of. The boondoogle of the railgun system was scrapped, the subsurface warfare was limited to its helo missions, and the plug and play functions that were a MASSIVE selling point are an epic failure. It was supposed to be swappable within 3 days. Well that turned out to be 10-22 days according to navy statements. It is limited to very few vls missiles and its gun. A gun that when examined as an anti ship weapon was found to be lacking. It has minimal defense capabilities from shore based systems, which again is a MAJOR issue when these are meant to be close to shore ships by design. The 30mm is not capable of seriously damaging any hard target and is mainly used as anti aircraft/anti tank/vehicle use. As far as I know there is only ONE asw module built and was set to be installed in 2017. AND it is an ACTIVE sonar system. If you put these against even ww2 class destroyers they are dead. Completely ignoring the real threat of missile attack. I would not want my loved ones on one of these ships in the fleet. So it is understandable for the Navy to want to get rid of a system that does not work, is expensive to maintain, and of minimal use in the very missions it was designed to complete. Sell them to the Coast Guard for interdiction missions and let them deal with it. Since they are pretty much useless in a fight unless against boghammers. To be fair when every tinpot dictator has access to Chinese and Russian missiles these ships are at a serious risk.
I think they built them specifically to be blown up while the good ships survive, and that's why the crew complements were designed to be very low. And they have a helipad so important politicians visiting or officers can get off at the last second before a dangerous mission, and if that fails they can order the ship to run away even if it endangers the fleet its with. Thats just the cynical movie/tv show writer in me dreaming of a villainous intent behind something the government did.... totally not what it was really designed for I'm sure.
sounds like some Navy Procurement officers had too much pull with the Congressional Armed Services Committee....I figured how that worked years ago when Murtha was the Chairman. Bad idea to let a lifelong corrupt "pick-pocket" in charge of money things in our government. (looking at you too Brandon!!) PS : Ukraine will need some littoral ships to "attempt" to keep it's shipping protected once Putin and his Orcs are all dead. Donate to them...at least a future NATO country will be able to make use of them sailing along NATO coastlines of the Black Sea. (Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkish straits to the Mediterranean Sea will be the only viable shipping lane unless Crimea is counter-offense and re-captured from the Drunken Mongrel Horde). And relinquishing them to the Coast Guard is another really good idea with its helicopter support capabilities and reduced mission lengths. That ship seems right up the CG alley.
@@josephcernansky1794 seems interesting for an idea, id rather they figure out a weapons or mission platform that the ships could excell at though. Perhaps some sort of baking ship to make food for the fleet :) Fine fine maybe it would be a GOOD coast guard ship for america and the black sea
I retired a few years ago. I worked at the Pentagon in the office of the CNO. Even top Admirals referred to it as "Little Crappy Ship" early in it's life. It's a ship with no mission. It was simply built to satisfy politicians in Wisconsin and Alabama...where the two are built. The Freedom class has had fewer issues as the quality coming out of Marinette Wi has been much higher. The Independence class built in Mobile is plagued with ongoing QC problems due to the inferior workforce.
100% this. Name another bid where both contestants were awarded contracts and the Navy bought (or ordered) dozens of each hull. From the outset it was clear to me that this was shady AF and meant to grease palms. The Perry design was built in multiple yards, the Burkes are built in multiple yards, but they are built under license from the "winning" bid.
Almost every detailed account of problems with “the LCS program” references problems with the Freedom class. Independence gets guilt by association, with very few detailed accounts of specific problems. This video continues the trend of media unable to distinguish the performance of the two classes. The Navy was always skeptical of the trimaran design, and has adjusted its perception of reality to fit it’s desired narrative.
The Independence is a pile of junk as well that wears itself out after a simple transit of the Pacific requiring weeks of post trip maintenance. And being aluminum it’s ridiculously unsurvivable. They’re both garbage and need to be abandoned. Buy more real ships and move on.
That is to be expected. Alabama is known to have one of the absolute worst school/education systems in the U.S. They're proud of their ignorance down there as evidenced by their % of MAGA to non-Kool Aide drinkers, LOL (not really funny at all considering that this effects our National Defense).
This was a very incoherent report and I’m not sure I learned anything from it. America’s most pressing adversary for the foreseeable future is the Chinese Navy and Air Force in the South and East China Seas, the Indian Ocean and the Straits of Malacca. Large numbers of small, agile ships are necessary because China has developed weapons technology that is capable of accurately and reliability sinking large combat ships (i.e. aircraft carriers). Such ships have to be “blue water” capable. The primary mission of a US Navy ship is to defend US interests abroad on the high seas, not for doing humanitarian missions. Humanitarian missions should not be a major design priority. Modern Naval warfare is conducted via aircraft (manned and/or unmanned) and long range missiles, not by ships duking it out with guns on the high seas. None of these important concepts were mentioned. For that reason, I am extremely unimpressed with this report.
The humanitarian ability of the Navy is massively important to America's global influence. Should humanitarian missions be prioritized over its combat capability? No. But it should still definitely be an important consideration.
@John Hackney America definitely has adversaries. China is a threat. Don't care if you ignorant of reality but having nuclear weapons does not protect you from anything other than nuclear first strike.
The contractor, whoever it may be, Lockheed Martin in this case, needs to be held responsible for whatever defects and for the repairs required due to material defects and/ or workmanship. And a suspension period of future contracts. ,👍
I think they engineer problems into their equipment in order to keep that gov't MIC $$$ rolling in. They use a subscription-based business model. Like Microsoft does now.
I love that line "I don't think the service has ever like these ships. They're not blue water assets and can shoot a missile 1,000 miles away." Just like the Cyclone Class PCs
The Navy happily operates minesweeps and patrol craft, hovercraft (LCAC), and a plethora of small boats for security operations around the world. The phrase "brown water Navy" refers to riverine squadrons, which have been operated in tactical environments since Viet Nam. The LCS was a dupe from day 1 when they awarded orders for both competing bids (two hull designs). No other ship class has been purchased that way as far as I can recall.
@@Lawrence330 I spent 3 years on a PC, so I know some people look down on those small ships and craft because they're not big, fancy, and multi-mission, but those small ships and craft get the job done every time, and the crew has the hearts and guts to get it done
I can understand build 2 different types to test concepts. But once you have a design stick to it. Having 2 different designs for LCS is an unnecessary cost. Also why is it necessary to have that much speed? this adds a huge cost and space requirement for what? We also know about what happens to Aluminum when hit by a missile. This is why you never build a warship with Aluminum. The LCS is needlessly complex and expensive.
Speed is really needed element in littoral areas, where pretty much anything is near coast on land, air or sea whit goal to hit you. As such, speed is first line of defense against those threats.
The aluminum thing is a red herring, that isn't the reason. The superstructure on most combatants is already aluminum. Aluminum is lightweight, even in greater thicknesses, and is more corrosion resistant than steel in many aspects. The speed is necessary for pursuits of pirate craft or drug-running vessels. I'm surprised the Navy disclosed it, honestly. Most ships are stated as "30+ knots" regardless of their actual performance. Also, knots is kn or kt. No ship can "outrun" a missile, but speed is important for torpedo evasion.
@@Lawrence330 - Scenario: an aluminum ship gets hit by a missile and damages a non-critical part of the ship, but a fire starts. Aluminum melts at 660.3°C. 'Benign' accommodation spaces (no petroleum products) have an average fire temperature ranging from 700 to 900°C. A ship goes to DC condition Zulu Alpha, but oxygen still fuels the fire. The ship melts. Have you never heard of the fire on HMS Sheffield or HMCS Kootenay? Those lessons are why warships are made of steel. Even the ladders within ships are steel. I don't consider it a red herring, but a valid reason. Especially with small boats being armed with missiles as in the Iranian Navy. Swarms can be made effective, especially if different weapon systems and vectors are employed. www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-e82667ce0042d744921596fda52a1bc2/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-e82667ce0042d744921596fda52a1bc2.pdf www.quora.com/Why-did-the-US-Navy-abandon-aluminum-superstructures-for-its-destroyers-after-the-Oliver-Hazard-Perry-class-frigates-and-return-to-totally-steel-ships-for-the-Arleigh-Burke-class-destroyers
You aren't looking at it as a politician. Two classes built in two places means twice the jobs for Congressman Bigwig's district and twice the campaign donations from contractors. From that perspective one might say this program has greatly exceeded expectations.
@Kenneth Tham that was one of the original purposes of the LCS. it's original surface warfare module had a lightweight mid-range missile. But that missile was eventually canceled.
@Kenneth Tham they should retire the ones that are too expensive to fix. The remainder need to be permanently converted to anti-submarine or anti-mine. But remember correctly the sub hunting module is the only one that works out of the three of them.
@@frankpinmtl Just looked it up, No idea why they are retiring 2 other freedom class ships. Could be the propulsion issue that got fixed in latter ships
A cost saving ship that ended up being a money pit that had too many issues. They learned from their lessons and it's time to move forward. It's a wise decision of cutting your losses.
As I recall, these LCS ships were forced on the Navy by Congress who wanted to create jobs in their home districts. The Navy didn't want them, and one Admiral famously testified that they would be floating coffins. Gee, guess what, it turns out that the Navy was right. I mean have we forgotten that the Freedom class was based on an Australia ferryboat.
Read this many times elsewhere and in many of these comments. A key problem with LCS is they are very expensive to operate and maintain. In peacetime, the US Coast Guard is funded by the Department of Homeland Security which tends to have a smaller budget than the Department of Defense. As a result, the Coast Guard generally chooses lower-cost, lower capability ships than the US Navy. If the Coast Guard accepted expensive LCS's, they would likely siphon funds away from more financially viable cutters like the Hamiltons. This would reduce Coast Guard sea coverage and especially the long range patrols to the Western Pacific. The Coast Guard also operates unique vehicles like the Dolphin helicopters that might require expensive reconfiguration for use on the LCS's or the use of the expensive Seahawk (Blackhawk) helicopters to maintain LCS compatibility. After WW2, the Navy passed many vessels on to the Coast Guard, but the ships were less costly and less specialized in those days.
"The Constellation class is based on an existing class of ships" except the US Navy's specifications for it have completely altered every aspect of them (they're longer, wider, with a different set of engines, a completely different sensor suite and twice the the missile armament).
@@wavavoom Agreed. The Navy first started moving to missile heavy instead of gun heavy platforms decades ago with the Ticonderoga Class Cruisers and Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers. So a Heavy Cruiser of Battlecruiser scale ship built around the same philosophy does seem a logical next step. And yes, the first ships will be "screwed up" and have a ton of problems that will eventually get ironed out and the ships will become the norm for the fleet.
""The Constellation class is based on an existing class of ships" except the US Navy's specifications for it have completely altered every aspect of them" Exactly!! They should have gone for the Type 26, like the other 5 eyes.
@@kevinshort3943 They went for a more multi-purpose capable design. 26s are more ASW oriented, besides Type 26s are yet unproved, Anyway: the logical choice would have been Navantia's F-100. AEGIS frigates for an AEGIS navy. Politics tipped the ballance in favour of the Italians.
@@ernstschloss8794 "They went for a more multi-purpose capable design. 26s are more ASW oriented" They are, but the Canadian and Australian variants aren't. "Type 26s are yet unproved," And a design that has been altered in every way is? "the logical choice would have been Navantia's F-100. AEGIS frigates for an AEGIS navy." The Australian Type 26 is being fitted with AEGIS - it's only electronics. "Politics tipped the ballance in favour of the Italians." Yes, or they would have gone for the more modern and capable type 26 - admittedly it is more expensive, but economies of scale and all that.
One use I could see for the LCS ships is to supplement the Cyclone-class patrol ships, stationed in the Persian Gulf, deterring / defending against small boat attacks preferred by Iran.
I can see those ships supplement a small fleet, but the main purpose of a frigate-sized ship is to support larger ship types and fleets. It so happens Frigates are good coastal vessels. Dumb Navy is trying to build a ship for the wrong reasons.
@@hypothalapotamus5293 unfortunately we are stuck with them at a time when we need MORE warships, and it is going to take a few years to acquire better replacements. Best we can do in the interim is make the best chicken salad we can out of these piles of chicken 💩.
@@dundonrl , Are you sure. In 2019, pre-pandemic, health services was only 5% of federal discretionary spending. Defense was 61% and veterans benefits at 7%. Also, don’t confuse health benefits that employees and employers have already paid for out of their paycheck. The same goes for Social Security. Those are non-discretionary.
@@2adamast Yeah, those Bradleys. They spent way more money on them than they'd originally planned making it a do-everything vehicle. The Bradley luckily ended up a good vehicle, thanks in part to the failures of their target vehicles. The LCS is also a good ship, but not for what the Navy wants to use them for. They should have been Coast Guard ships.
The Bradley ended up being an excellent vehicle and STILL is. It's only now that we're in the absolute beginner stages of making prototypes to replace them DECADES later. The same seems to be happening with the Freedom class today.
A telescope has few moving parts, but a complex RADAR is more useful most of the time. A tomahawk missile is probably more technologically complex than most of the ships that carry it, and it's meant to be destroyed when used!
Realize the LCS was originally conceived as a throw away, one hit and dead. The idea was to build a butt load of them to swarm the opponent. STUPID, and they finally came to their senses and tried to beef up the LSC to be more than a target but that was to late Mark Fay US MMC Jr. Engineer QMED AS-E
U.S can't be like that, they need big hold your ground ships because U.S navel warfare revolves around their carriers sending out 20 aircraft with at least two anti ship missiles each.
@Cheese Um, so we aren’t taken over and possibly killed? It’s happened to just about every nation throughout history and it’s bound to happen to us at some point
Sure. I also remember Mr. Gorbachev tearing that wall down because the Soviets couldn't keep up. It was money well spend to rid the world of the dangerous evil of Soviet Communism.
@Cheese As it existed in the Soviet Union, absolutely. It's just about tied with Nazism as the worst, most murderous ideology and system of government in human history. Of course, you can't make an omelette without murdering a few million people, at least if you're Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot.
except in many way that it isn't. the cost to build and run is way too high for normal coastguard use. Majority of the weapon and electronic systems and technologies has to be stripped and replaced because the coast guard has no use for them or too much technical skills and upkeep is required (cutting edge stealth system and cruise missiles, defences and electronic warfare systems). It's cheaper to build the coastguard a new ship than make them use this one, it's designed and built for a very specific role. like handing a F35 to the police to replace some helicopters.
Better hang on and up funding across the board and kick the ass of these defense contractors who need competition and urgency we have a War coming Damn soon! Better such it up boys or we'll all be cannon foder for Chinese invasions!
What about retiring the ship to restart a public transportation service on the great lakes between USA and Canada? The new companies would simply have to fix the non functioning engines and build amenities on board to provide for passenger comfort...
The trimaran is an adaption of an Australian fast car ferry. Two Australian companies (Incat and Austal) dominate the fast (35 to 50 knots) car ferry sector and sell a lot of ships to Asia and Europe. BUT the USA has never accepted them. Two examples. A service in the Bay of Fundy failed because people preferred to drive around the bay, even though it took 4 hours longer and in Hawaii the airlines lobbied to close down a fast inter island ferry because by claiming that it was bad for the environment. So they could be used as fast car ferries elsewhere, but not in North America.
Without the US Military to protect and defend our Constitutional and Civil Rights there will be NO quality of life, healthcare and education - the minute our Military is gone, we will get invaded by Russia and China and all Human Rights will END .. and if the American People had elected #Eisenhower #REPUBLICAN #BradHartliep in 2020, 2016 and 2012, instead of LIARS and CONARTISTS and Elitist sellouts Obama, Biden, Hillary, Sanders and Trump, the American People would have a GREAT National Healthcare System - one that Brad Hartliep has been actively supporting since 1990, one that would cover ALL Healthcare issues from Birth to death, and one that would put "obamacare for the rich elite" [ which the Poorest American Citizens can't afford and have been forced out of - by Obama] and all the healthcare plans in Canada, UK, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark to shame, and our children would be receiving the GREATEST STEM Education in the world, and our Infrastructure would have already been rebuilt, and our communities would be bicycle and walking traffic friendly, and America would not be the disaster it has become under Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush and Clinton .. REAL Progressive Growth in America - REAL Civil Rights in America - REAL Equality for Minorities and Women in America - did not come about because of the Democratic Party [ who supported and promoted Racism and opposed Civil Rights for more than 200 years] - they exist, and were invented by, and were promoted by, and were passed into law by, the #Eisenhower #TeddyRoosevelt, #Lincoln, #JohnAdams #REPUBLICAN Party .. And that's the Leadership America needs in 2024 ~ #BradHartliep 2024 President, #LaunchAmericaForward ..
Ah yes... The LCS.. it's technically not a success since there's no job for it but it's technically not a failure either since there's no job for it to do it badly
Dude the door broke during a training exercise with the media. With its past reliability issues idk how else to say it..... looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its a failure.
I think there is a different dimension to some of these arguments about how successful these ships are and it should also be considered that a number or % of these projects will fail but they never fail entirely in so much as a great deal is learned in these projects and many of the technologies developed for these platforms evolve and mature into systems that will be latterly used in combat. There is a cost to being number one and developing new technologies that other countries will eventually try to replicate and I say this as someone who isn’t American.
This was a colossal failure... When you have to have civilians come on board just for general housekeeping? It's sad. The captain and executive officer had cleaning stations. Nothing more embarrassing than seeing the Captain of a ship high dusting and waxing the deck... I was discussed!!!
Sometimes you strike out when trying new things, new methods, new technologies. Sometimes you hit a metaphorical home run, like with trying new recipes or restaurants, other times they are abject failures. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I will say this, though. Any Congress person who called for defense contractors eating the cost of delivering garbage quality hardware, like Lockheed Martin engines that constantly break down, would die under mysterious circumstances.
I agree with the others commenting that they should be transfered to the Coast Guard or National Guard Naval Militia. As a Dual Canadian/American, I think Canada would be smart to buy them for Artic Patrol.
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron. ― Dwight D. Eisenhower
You called them ‘conex boxes’ instead of ‘shipping containers’! I haven’t heard many people outside of rural Alaska call them that! Then again I live in rural Alaska so I don’t see or hear many people.
21 LCS Ships at 900 million each would have bought us about 10 Arleigh Burke Flight III Destroyers at 1.83 Billion per ship, and in ANY fight I'd take the 10 Destroyers over the LCS. We could have had 19 more for the cost of the R&D for Zumwalt plus the procurement cost of 3 ships, a total cost of 34.4 BILLION dollars. That's 30 top of the line Destroyers, proven warships, in their latest configuration, Flight III.
I used to think the aluminum hull design was crazy, until I read up on what the logic behind it actually is. First of all, it's lighter and cheaper. Second, there is actually very little difference between an aluminum ship and a steel ship in terms of the damage it takes from modern naval weapons (for that type of ship, it's going to be catastrophic damage no matter what you do). But most importantly, the Navy has different categories of ship survivability that are based on the utility of the ship. A carrier is in the first category, and that means they will attempt to save a stricken carrier no matter what. A category two ship is one which the Navy will attempt to save up to a certain level of damage, and then will abandon. A category three ship is one which the Navy won't bother trying to save if it takes significant damage. So if any anti-ship missile is enough to knock out such a vessel regardless of what it's made of, and if you don't plan on trying to put too much effort into saving it, the differences between aluminum and steel are very little. That gives aluminum the advantage as it is corrosion-resistant on top of being light weight.
Hmmm. I wonder how they saved ships like the Franklin during WW2? And a whole lot of other battle damaged ships that today would be given up on. How easy would it be to repair aluminium, can you do it at sea? Steel hull and aluminum upper decks and fixtures?
Obviously you’ve never heard of the USS Belknap… or the Falklands War. Aluminum is a terrible idea in warships.. and the US had learned that lesson which is why the Spruance, Perry, Arleigh Burke etc were all steel.
2:08 calling them variants is misleading. They are 2 completely different ships in the same class. I mean we don't call the yf32 a variant of the f35. Or the yf23 a variant of the f22.
Imagine if you filled that rear deck with VLS cells. All of a sudden, you'd have a small ship with a hell of a lot of firepower that could be outfitted any number of ways. You'd probably have to remove that CIWS from the roof and launch smaller helocopters from there but that would be a worthwhile tradeoff IMO.
A helicopter is far more valuable than a VLS. They made that mistake on the Flight I Arleigh Burkes even though the Spruances, Kidds, and Ticonderogas had them. The Royal Navy also made that mistake on the Type 82. Never again.
There’s also Zumwalt successor and Ticonderoga successor programs currently in the concept phase. But that’s the issue. We need ship replacements in those areas and they aren’t coming along fast enough
I remember, Discovery Channel made a documentary both of these two ships and bragged so much about it. Decades later the Navy declared that the two ships was a flop.
I have years working on the open ocean . This particular tri-hull design is a steel anchor . This ship is not a blue water vessel . It would need to outrun any big weather or be pounded beneath the waves !
I think that is unfair, it is not an issue of a tri hull- it is under armed and incapable, which would be fine if it didn't cost the same as a warship. The tri hull doesn't make it that weather unsuitable, but it is light aluminium for as low draft as possible and it is tiny.
That was memory holed 54 years ago. LBJ ordered all the radio intercepts destroyed and ordered the navy to say they had never existed, even though multiple sailors testified before Congress that they existed and the sailors had heard them.
I realize that many people, including the Congress, the president and the Supreme Court don’t care about the laws our republic was founded on, however I hesitate to point out the obvious. Namely that the US Constitution does not allow for public healthcare. Since it isn’t mentioned, then it is a power that is reserved to the states or to the people. On the other hand, defense of the Republic is a responsibility of the Federal government specified and mandated in the Constitution.
If you're taking up the cost and role of being the west's protector you afford it or you let the little guys do that all their own. That's why most nations whose populations of 5 million to 80 million do not have have huge standing armies, navies, air forces and space forces 🤣
@@phillipsmith4814 So let me see now? How many times has the inviolable US Constitution been amended? And how many times have amendments been deleted? Its a thin argument to blame your Constitution for operating a Health Care Industry rather than a Health Care Service. If your argument stood up there would never have been the 2nd Amendment and hundreds of thousands of Americans wouldn't have died unnecessarily. But then 26,000 Americans die each year for lack of health insurance and thousands are bankrupted. Still got to keep those profits going to the party donors right?
Hi NZ here, we'll have them! Honestly with the missions the RNZN carries out we could use them here. I am sure a deal could be struck and these vessels modernised and refitted to NZ specifics. They are capable War Ships, i think the deficits they have could be rectified.
There was nothing wrong with Navy's early decision, because USA had to prepare for fighting against terrorist groups or small nations all over the globe, light, fast ships with relatively small numbers of not so advanced weapons were enough; however now there is the "great power competition" which would involve heavy warships with numerous long range, high speed missiles, so Navy will need a lot of money to develop that kind of capability, it's reasonable!!
the thing with the LCS is the design is incredibly brilliant in that if you want to bring in a ship with a certain package, such as ASW, put that package in the LCS and send it in. The problem is that does not quite work that way. instead of playing games with LCS system, they could have a DDG type class that is a bit better, overall, and have that instead of a class that is plagued with problems.
Just from viewing a large number of You Tube videos on the LCS concept and on missile boats and corvettes; the ship has some problems that could be worked around. Very few missile boats achieve a speed over 40 knots. The drive systems of the LCS vessels break down frequently. Could it be that 46 knots is trying to go a faster than one should go? The LCS is built in modules but missile boats or corvettes are sometimes built as well rounded combat systems with perminent weapon systems that include anti-aircraft missiles, ship to ship missiles, ship to shore capabilities even if its a rapid fireing Oto Melara or Bofors gun, torpedoes, and anti-sub search systems, and at times mid-range cruise missiles. They often employ stealth technologies. They can't carry large quanties of any one of these weapons and therefore can't sustain a long drawen out fight unless they are reconfigured to just a few tasks. They can take more damage than a ship built with modules. They require surveillance and targeting often from aircraft or drones often from the shore but if made bigger, which often defeats their laterial mission, they can carry a drone or helicopter with them, and they rely on larger number of similar vessels for sustaining a longer duration fight. The use of modules which are bolted in place, instead of welded in place may not achieve the versitilty or ruggedness that today's combat demands. As others mentioned, they may be better suited for the Coast Guard to protect our own shores where Coast Guard aircraft are covering them. Lattoral ships will still be needed for overseas deployment and the Cyclone boats or a beefed up and larger Cyclone boat may be more suitable. ( they are already in the USN's arsenal) Also, a look at other nations missile boat and corvette fleets would provide better answers to the USN's needs. Nations such as Israel, Turkey, Sweden, Finland, and Norway seem to have excellent fleets of smaller boats for Lattoral waters. They are not making them like we are trying to and they would be off the shelf, proven technology.
When was the last major sea battle undertaken by any modern navy? When was the last time a naval ship intercepted drug runners, human traffickers, refugees in distress, hurricane disaster relief, gun-boat diplomacy, or any number of other low-key naval duties? The USN LCS class is far more useful than the exotic destroyers, but I guess if your priority is to have a blue-water fleet that may never see any combat rather than carrying out other less glorious but far more worthwhile operations then yeah, go for it.
“Far more worthwhile operations” the USN keeps global shipping lanes open and allows the flow of trade. The last time the US wasn’t doing this resulted in the oil crisis in the 1970’s.
Number one: google PLA(N) assets.....Bluewater is mega...but... These ships to a great degree were designed with the South China Sea/Caribe/Med/ Hormuz in mind. Good concept...wrong material, ask the Royal Navy in the Falklands 82'....carbon laminate, ala Formula one is the way to go...
I'm thinking the Navy should make some very small, very stealthy, unmanned, submersible, targeting boats. You launch them from a larger ship near the enemy coast. These boats would obtain and retain a radar lock on multiple enemy targets. It would be hard for enemy radar to get a lock on them, but if any do, they could turn off their radar systems and pop under water. If you have 12 of them deployed, you might have 2 under water at any given time. They would be effective if only 4 are active. These boats would relay tracking data back to the main fleet so the capital ships could launch missiles without generating their own radar signature. The boats would be "attritable" but not expendable. That means we could afford to lose a few now and then but we try not to lose them. These boats would be made on the cheap. You're putting many unmanned stealth boats in harm's way to lower the risk for larger expensive capital ships with hundreds of sailors on board. And unlike Aegis destroyers which take years to build, you can crank these boats out in a matter of weeks. Let's add to the fun. It uses stealthy (low sonar) underwater pontoons. The top observable portion is stealthy to radar and turns like a 360 turret. This way, no matter what direction the boat is heading, a maximum stealth surface is always facing the enemy. The underwater pontoons can link, making it possible to send out one boat to retrieve another that was damaged or ran out of fuel. Then bring it back to the deployment ship for repair.
The Navy shouldn't be allowed to ignore the LCS disaster by sinking it. Those ships are still viable in this country's defense system and with modification can remain so for at least two more decades.
These ships were never able to defend themselves, they were undermanned, and the mission packages have still not come into service. There are major problems with the engineering plant and it is time to cut our losses. We are better off moving on to the new frigate which is a proven design already being built. There has been numerous deployment failures.
So if we pass on paying for a new class of frigates, what happens? Are our current frigates obsolete? Is more missiles, in cells, worth spending this money. And as far as the LCS being outgunned by Chinese and Iranian ships...what happened to all the others ships the Navy has? Those wouldnt be involved in the fight? The 30 LCS ships would be the only ones fighting? These big defense expenditures need to be challenged. There are more important priorities in this nation.
All the other ships in the navy will be busy fighting Chinese warships. They don't have time to babysit these ferry boats disguised as navy ships. The navy wasted billions on these aluminum cans while a lack of real war-fighting frigates became a crisis. China is building a lot more warships than we are. We wasted years and billions on the LCS.
Obviously you have never served in the USN. You're voicing political opinions about missions that we've completed, both wartime, humanitarian and peacekeeping. Retired Navy Chief.
Why build schools or hospitals, when we already have schools and hospitals? Can't the kids or sick people just go to those? Your comment is very silly.
Yea and the us government was pushing the hellenic government to buy these ships in extrordinary price for the navy, supporting that this choice was the best for Greece's requirments for the Aegean sea .Hadnt the AUKUS alliance been taken into progress , the hellenic navy would have spent 5 billions for 4 ships that were useless for the today's combat requirments . Thank God we chose the Bellhara frigates and we are capapble to defend effectively our sea
It is crazy that they are still building these when there is an urgent need for the new frigates. All the work on these ships should stop now and additional frigate construction should start now.
@@erichoppe8228 You should go sit down in a quiet room and ponder your lack of understanding. The multiple people who clicked 👍apparently understood my humorous intent.
An Argentine plane tagged an all-Aluminum British ship with an Exocet off the Falklands and it went up like a Roman candle. The military budget is too high as it is, but at least they should build ships with fire-resistant Aluminum so they last a little longer. Another idea might be to get into shorter wars.
I was a welder at Marinette Marine for the first 3 freedom class ships. Also worked at the Austal facility in Mobile Alabama in 2006 on upgrading the infrastructure there for the new contract for the independence class ships.
The original concept of the LCS is a sound one. They were conceived as ships performing specialized missions that don't put them in high intensity surface fights. Missions like interdiction, counter piracy, minesweeping, and ASW could be handled by these ships while at the same time freeing larger surface combatants to perform their primary missions. LCS's were never meant to be ships of the line in the same vein as a cruiser or destroyer. Aside from the problems with the ships (every new class of ships goes through problems), the major problem is the lack of working mission packages. The only one in operation is the surface warfare package. The Mine warfare and ASW packages are still in development and are years behind schedule and over budget.
In the communities where shipbuilding pays the bills, this is very much a "jobs" program. The Navy doesn't "get" the money, they make what are known in economics as transfer payments- tax money is redirected to civilian workers for engineering, construction, maintenance, and training activities. The sailors get paid, too. That was always nice.
Small ships our ww2 fleet consisted of ships that were restricted by the naval treaties. So the fletchers that were around 2500 tons doesnt even tip the scales as much as the LCS does and it is a destroyer.
More controversial than the Ford-class carriers? Looking back into the Navy's past, you can find any number of examples of classes of ships that ended up being used for missions very different from the original intent. The 10 fast battleships that the U.S. built just before and during WWII weren't originally intended to escort aircraft carriers and conduct surface bombardments of enemy territory. Our 'fleet boat' submarines built before and during WWII likewise were intended to serve as scouts for the battle line and attack enemy fleet units as part of a larger battle, not throttling the enemy by destroying his merchant marine. Our patrol boats, hydrofoil (PBH) of the 1960s-1980s were envisioned for lots of missions other than what they ended their careers doing, protecting Key West and escorting the training carrier Lexington (AVT-16) during flight ops in the Key West oparea. Ballistic missile submarines had their missions changed, and underwent reconstruction to adapt to new uses. A couple dozen WWII fleet boats had faulty diesel engines and had to have them completely replaced before they were finally able to complete their assigned missions. These LCS platforms are hardly the first propulsion system scandal to hit the Navy, and who among us believes they will be the last, or that an ever-changing world dynamic will never again require the Navy to adapt and overcome, like the Marines?
@@Gentleman...Driver their only a fail if they never get a superior offense/defense system to function on them. Sooooooooooo... any day NASA you wana install those doom lasers and death rays on the Zumwalt ;D
Maybe install some form of liquid metal shield barrier if they can develop that somehow. See a incoming missile launch, deploy the liquid metal shield... I wonder if the force of the missile would push the boat far enough into the water that it would start to sink though even if it survived the explosion/impact of it... maybe the shield could be designed to keep the missile from exploding somehow... like fry the electronics without detonating the explosives... probably not... i mean if you could slam something into the nose of the missile it might smash the detonator and keep it from activating though... but maybe its designed to detonate if something starts to smash it :/
The LCS was doomed when the Navy cancelled the Zumwalt destroyers. The Zumwalt were meant as command, control, defensive, and offensive capabilities, for numerous LCS’s simultaneously, sailing just off littoral areas, patrolled by the LCSs, with Zumwalt relying on its stealth, sensors, radars, and massive technologies for the defense of the LCSs and themselves. They were all created as a cohesive unit. THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED CONSTRUCTION and CANCELLED THE LCSs the minute they chose to stop building Zumwalts. Then for every pair of the two types of LCSs that were already built, the should have built and finished one Zumwalt. Then they would have had something really useful, just as they did with what F22s that they finished when they cancelled the order for 700. The original vision for the Zumwalt and LCSs must have disappeared with the exit of key personnel from the Navy. I get it, the dream of the Zumwalt proved too costly, but they should have stopped the construction of the LCSs, and then completed a Zumwalt for every pair of them that had already began construction.
I wouldn’t try to cut down a tree with it, but the little keychain Swiss Army knife serves its purpose. They seem like great assets in the right application. The overall costs decrease with every one built.
"you may get a better product but you'll never pay more" Lockheed Martin mission statement.
One of the first selling points I remember hearing was, besides it's primary coastal role, was to free up destroyers for smaller interdiction missions and humanitarian relief. Then in the event of war they would be used mainly as anti-sub platforms, it was known engaging larger enemy surface ships was not recommended and evasion using their speed advantage was the plan.
@@Sam-le6sp Missiles and projectiles don't work on a torpedo under water. And yes they do run the attack speed that fast by creating a pocket of gas or steam in front of the torpedo.
How they going to track a submarine? Last I checked they had no towed array and going active (if they have a sonar?) will just get them killed. Spent 24 yrs in the Navy doing towed array ops (SQR-15 and 19) and the name of the game is quiet!
@@Sam-le6sp Sorry my bad, was having Russian Poseidon torpedo comment replies at same time for another channel.
@@patrickmccrann991 They said they had a towed array sonar module they can install plus the helicopters.
@@bryandepaepe5984 If the module actually works. That part of the ship plan has been a total failure. Last I heard it was being abandoned.
TBH the coastguard is in need of more modern ships, they'd probably love some of these
I could use one.
It's hilarious that littoral means "close to shore" but was built to be completely incompatible with the Coast Guard. Smh
Many thanks!
No they wouldn't. Maintenance costs are too high.
Coast Guard has the Legend class cutters, which are a lot better ships than the Freedom class LCS.
Surely those Zumwalt ships are more controversial. A ship designed around a gun that it now won't have.
The military-industrial complex won't feed itself you know.
Not really controversial, everyone who knows about that program knows it failed HARD and will only (hopefully) act as proof of concept and test platform. The LCS is controversial because contractors/PMs/politicians try to pretend a program which has realized few of its goals and failed at nearly all its innovative facets is a success.
I'm glad someone mentioned the Zum gun... At least there is ammo for the LCS weapon systems.
the zumwalt isnt controversial because almost everyone agrees it failed.
@@mrchocolatebean8878 The gun failed the ships are amazing. If they get the modified Virginia payload module upgrade the Zumwalt may still prove to be the way forward. The LCS is just hot garbage. Both are a failure of strategy and tactics. They are weapon systems customized to deal with a low level opponent not a near peer threat. We don't need new billion dollar systems to deal with pirates and 3rd world dictators.
Defense contractors should be on the bill for any problems that arise. We should not be paying for their mistakes. Lockheeds modification to fix the problem with their design should come from the profits they make off of it. Stop paying for contractors to mess up
well then they will just give you a much higher quote when they initially design the ship.
@@fatnlazychinc that will help us understand the real development cost
That partially already exists, as often payment is often fixed at the beginning and the designers have to figure it out. This can actually, as private companies will only take big risks if you offer them more money up front.
Of course, we all know you'd always argue in favor of what costs you less tax dollars.
Lockheed didn’t design the combining gear box (the part that breaks), they outsourced that to a company they believed had more experience in that type of design.
@@fatnlazychinc Lockheed already does that. Everything they touch goes through numerous rounds of upgrades and fixes and repairs because they are just loaded top to bottom with problems that take decades to iron out…..Which conveniently gives Lockheed billions of dollars in maintenance contracts.
LCS was meant to be a cost-saving ship... it was supposed to be a "modular ship", that by swapping Anti-Air, Anti-Sub, Anti-Mine "Modules", LCS can do various jobs (and the navy can save by cutting "single purpose ship" like the Mine-hunting Ospreys and sub-hunting Perrys).
The problem is... this idea never worked, its too costly to swap modules, but all the negativity that comes with the "modular design" got added into to cost and system complexity anyway. Even the littoral hull design, is considered less valuable now after the war on terror ended.
From an engineering perspective (both trained electrical engineer and project manager), I only feel sad for the outcome, and I don't think it is much a project-managing issue. The technical complexity was underestimated, and we simply didn't have the technical maturity needed for the "swapping modules" technology.....
In Hindsight, the moment the higher-ups decided to go with the modular design, its Game-Over for the engineering and project-managing team... its basically asking using 90s technology to design a Tesla Electric Car in the 2010s.... (its not entirely "impossible", but don't do it!). No engineering/project management team can save you from that, and this decision was made very early in the program phase.
give those small ships to coast guard. no need for the navy to be working by the coast.
The US Coast Guard does not normally operate off the Coasts of Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, Australia and the Starights of Hormuz - THAT is why the USNavy needs Littoral Class Ships .. the US Coast Guard has their own that operate in US Coastal Waters ..
@@bradhartliep879 Why in the hell is US navy operating in other countries' littoral water anyway. If you want to dominate the world, don't expect you can do it cheaply.
@@bradhartliep879 wow you think that what you see are not nations?
That’s why your thinking is loathed around the world.
They would be the most expensive over engineered coast guard ships in the history of the world.
@@bradhartliep879 LCS would get instant fcked up if it tried to operate say near Chinese or Iranian coast. Their stealth is a myth. Airborne early warning radar could easily spot them from 100 miles away, then a few subsonic anti ship missile would finish those LCS which lacks any self defense capabilities.
LCS is a junk because it could not perform the task it was designed for. Plain and simple.
The LCS mission is basically the US Coast Guard’s mission.
Except it's bad at it
The LCS mission has NOTHING to do with the Coast Guard. They're about as far apart as conceivable.
I don't remember the Coast Guard being tasked to fight in off coastlines. Maybe look at what the Coast Guard actually does?
@@erikanybody4298 Lately, sure. In ww2 coasties often manned various craft, especially landing craft in the islands assaults. That being said, I do not know of any heavily armed coast guard ships protecting convoys against surface raiders, subs or enemy aircraft then. But, the coast guard did man nearly 400 skips then and almost 80 of them were LST's and etc. These days, not so much. Those WHEC mini cruisers pack a punch, so they are serious business when going about their LEO ops.
@@banky4943 C O P I U M
Love the avatar OP.
Have they looked into selling them to smaller nations? They would be ideal for small nations that have no need for a blue water navy. Another option would be moving them to the Coast Guard.
That's actually what they're trying to do! They lost bid with Greece just a few weeks ago, it's basically competing with corvettes from other countries
They have a hard time competing with modern corvettes which have similar armament for a much cheaper price.
@@notliquid1448 If the alternative is decommissioning and scraping you can sell them pretty cheap and still come out ahead.
@@matthewhuszarik4173 Oh they actually proposed newly built Freedom class ships
@@matthewhuszarik4173 No. LCS are meant to function along coats but the US also had a need for them to be ocean going and super fast. No other country needs those requirements and they present extra costs. Coastal nations just want bog standard corvettes.
The ships are still modular... but we don't change the modules. Sounds like "Modularity was a stupid idea; it would be better to build the ship the way you want it in the first place".
And the modules that exist don't work. But other than that it's perfect. So we undercrew forward deployed DDGs to man these unarmed, short ranged missile sponges.
Fantastic! And please do more of your very good reporting on more defence programs!!!!!
It's worrisome when the US is okay exposing their fleet to the world and her adversaries!
ua-cam.com/video/GrN7eW2OSWw/v-deo.html
As a former USN sailor, the ship has NEVER been capable of the missions it was supposed to be capable of. The boondoogle of the railgun system was scrapped, the subsurface warfare was limited to its helo missions, and the plug and play functions that were a MASSIVE selling point are an epic failure. It was supposed to be swappable within 3 days. Well that turned out to be 10-22 days according to navy statements. It is limited to very few vls missiles and its gun. A gun that when examined as an anti ship weapon was found to be lacking. It has minimal defense capabilities from shore based systems, which again is a MAJOR issue when these are meant to be close to shore ships by design. The 30mm is not capable of seriously damaging any hard target and is mainly used as anti aircraft/anti tank/vehicle use. As far as I know there is only ONE asw module built and was set to be installed in 2017. AND it is an ACTIVE sonar system. If you put these against even ww2 class destroyers they are dead. Completely ignoring the real threat of missile attack. I would not want my loved ones on one of these ships in the fleet.
So it is understandable for the Navy to want to get rid of a system that does not work, is expensive to maintain, and of minimal use in the very missions it was designed to complete. Sell them to the Coast Guard for interdiction missions and let them deal with it. Since they are pretty much useless in a fight unless against boghammers. To be fair when every tinpot dictator has access to Chinese and Russian missiles these ships are at a serious risk.
I think they built them specifically to be blown up while the good ships survive, and that's why the crew complements were designed to be very low. And they have a helipad so important politicians visiting or officers can get off at the last second before a dangerous mission, and if that fails they can order the ship to run away even if it endangers the fleet its with. Thats just the cynical movie/tv show writer in me dreaming of a villainous intent behind something the government did.... totally not what it was really designed for I'm sure.
sounds like some Navy Procurement officers had too much pull with the Congressional Armed Services Committee....I figured how that worked years ago when Murtha was the Chairman. Bad idea to let a lifelong corrupt "pick-pocket" in charge of money things in our government. (looking at you too Brandon!!)
PS : Ukraine will need some littoral ships to "attempt" to keep it's shipping protected once Putin and his Orcs are all dead. Donate to them...at least a future NATO country will be able to make use of them sailing along NATO coastlines of the Black Sea. (Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkish straits to the Mediterranean Sea will be the only viable shipping lane unless Crimea is counter-offense and re-captured from the Drunken Mongrel Horde).
And relinquishing them to the Coast Guard is another really good idea with its helicopter support capabilities and reduced mission lengths. That ship seems right up the CG alley.
@@josephcernansky1794 seems interesting for an idea, id rather they figure out a weapons or mission platform that the ships could excell at though. Perhaps some sort of baking ship to make food for the fleet :) Fine fine maybe it would be a GOOD coast guard ship for america and the black sea
Yes the same thing that happened to zummwalt, and possibly many more projects that are on the way too
The railgun was never meant for these LCS ships. You are thinking of the zumwalts.
I retired a few years ago. I worked at the Pentagon in the office of the CNO. Even top Admirals referred to it as "Little Crappy Ship" early in it's life. It's a ship with no mission. It was simply built to satisfy politicians in Wisconsin and Alabama...where the two are built. The Freedom class has had fewer issues as the quality coming out of Marinette Wi has been much higher. The Independence class built in Mobile is plagued with ongoing QC problems due to the inferior workforce.
100% this. Name another bid where both contestants were awarded contracts and the Navy bought (or ordered) dozens of each hull. From the outset it was clear to me that this was shady AF and meant to grease palms. The Perry design was built in multiple yards, the Burkes are built in multiple yards, but they are built under license from the "winning" bid.
This is freaking BS. Our tax money being throw away while people are homeless.
Almost every detailed account of problems with “the LCS program” references problems with the Freedom class. Independence gets guilt by association, with very few detailed accounts of specific problems. This video continues the trend of media unable to distinguish the performance of the two classes. The Navy was always skeptical of the trimaran design, and has adjusted its perception of reality to fit it’s desired narrative.
The Independence is a pile of junk as well that wears itself out after a simple transit of the Pacific requiring weeks of post trip maintenance. And being aluminum it’s ridiculously unsurvivable. They’re both garbage and need to be abandoned. Buy more real ships and move on.
That is to be expected. Alabama is known to have one of the absolute worst school/education systems in the U.S. They're proud of their ignorance down there as evidenced by their % of MAGA to non-Kool Aide drinkers, LOL (not really funny at all considering that this effects our National Defense).
This was a very incoherent report and I’m not sure I learned anything from it. America’s most pressing adversary for the foreseeable future is the Chinese Navy and Air Force in the South and East China Seas, the Indian Ocean and the Straits of Malacca. Large numbers of small, agile ships are necessary because China has developed weapons technology that is capable of accurately and reliability sinking large combat ships (i.e. aircraft carriers). Such ships have to be “blue water” capable.
The primary mission of a US Navy ship is to defend US interests abroad on the high seas, not for doing humanitarian missions. Humanitarian missions should not be a major design priority.
Modern Naval warfare is conducted via aircraft (manned and/or unmanned) and long range missiles, not by ships duking it out with guns on the high seas.
None of these important concepts were mentioned. For that reason, I am extremely unimpressed with this report.
The humanitarian ability of the Navy is massively important to America's global influence. Should humanitarian missions be prioritized over its combat capability? No. But it should still definitely be an important consideration.
Had the same feeling. They were so enthused in presenting a 'neutral' view to the point where they lost the plot.
@John Hackney America definitely has adversaries. China is a threat. Don't care if you ignorant of reality but having nuclear weapons does not protect you from anything other than nuclear first strike.
The contractor, whoever it may be, Lockheed Martin in this case, needs to be held responsible for whatever defects and for the repairs required due to material defects and/ or workmanship. And a suspension period of future contracts. ,👍
...Are you giving yourself a thumbs up?
I think they engineer problems into their equipment in order to keep that gov't MIC
$$$ rolling in. They use a subscription-based business model. Like Microsoft does now.
@@fucker1714 considering that Lockheed is footing the bill for the modifications and repairs that seems unlikely.
It is just a jobs program.
@@nunya-d2t Who's paying for the F35?
I love that line "I don't think the service has ever like these ships. They're not blue water assets and can shoot a missile 1,000 miles away." Just like the Cyclone Class PCs
The Navy happily operates minesweeps and patrol craft, hovercraft (LCAC), and a plethora of small boats for security operations around the world. The phrase "brown water Navy" refers to riverine squadrons, which have been operated in tactical environments since Viet Nam. The LCS was a dupe from day 1 when they awarded orders for both competing bids (two hull designs). No other ship class has been purchased that way as far as I can recall.
@@Lawrence330 I spent 3 years on a PC, so I know some people look down on those small ships and craft because they're not big, fancy, and multi-mission, but those small ships and craft get the job done every time, and the crew has the hearts and guts to get it done
The real surface-level war ships were the friends we made along the way.
I can understand build 2 different types to test concepts. But once you have a design stick to it. Having 2 different designs for LCS is an unnecessary cost. Also why is it necessary to have that much speed? this adds a huge cost and space requirement for what? We also know about what happens to Aluminum when hit by a missile. This is why you never build a warship with Aluminum. The LCS is needlessly complex and expensive.
Speed is really needed element in littoral areas, where pretty much anything is near coast on land, air or sea whit goal to hit you. As such, speed is first line of defense against those threats.
The aluminum thing is a red herring, that isn't the reason. The superstructure on most combatants is already aluminum. Aluminum is lightweight, even in greater thicknesses, and is more corrosion resistant than steel in many aspects. The speed is necessary for pursuits of pirate craft or drug-running vessels. I'm surprised the Navy disclosed it, honestly. Most ships are stated as "30+ knots" regardless of their actual performance.
Also, knots is kn or kt. No ship can "outrun" a missile, but speed is important for torpedo evasion.
@@Lawrence330 - Scenario: an aluminum ship gets hit by a missile and damages a non-critical part of the ship, but a fire starts. Aluminum melts at 660.3°C. 'Benign' accommodation spaces (no petroleum products) have an average fire temperature ranging from 700 to 900°C.
A ship goes to DC condition Zulu Alpha, but oxygen still fuels the fire.
The ship melts. Have you never heard of the fire on HMS Sheffield or HMCS Kootenay? Those lessons are why warships are made of steel. Even the ladders within ships are steel.
I don't consider it a red herring, but a valid reason. Especially with small boats being armed with missiles as in the Iranian Navy. Swarms can be made effective, especially if different weapon systems and vectors are employed.
www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-e82667ce0042d744921596fda52a1bc2/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-e82667ce0042d744921596fda52a1bc2.pdf
www.quora.com/Why-did-the-US-Navy-abandon-aluminum-superstructures-for-its-destroyers-after-the-Oliver-Hazard-Perry-class-frigates-and-return-to-totally-steel-ships-for-the-Arleigh-Burke-class-destroyers
bribed politicians
You aren't looking at it as a politician. Two classes built in two places means twice the jobs for Congressman Bigwig's district and twice the campaign donations from contractors. From that perspective one might say this program has greatly exceeded expectations.
The first four LCS's are being retired due to the cost of repairs. As far as I know all the remaining LCS's will be repaired or upgraded.
The first four were also used as capability platforms for the other ships.
wiki has 6 being retired
@Kenneth Tham that was one of the original purposes of the LCS. it's original surface warfare module had a lightweight mid-range missile. But that missile was eventually canceled.
@Kenneth Tham they should retire the ones that are too expensive to fix. The remainder need to be permanently converted to anti-submarine or anti-mine. But remember correctly the sub hunting module is the only one that works out of the three of them.
@@frankpinmtl Just looked it up, No idea why they are retiring 2 other freedom class ships. Could be the propulsion issue that got fixed in latter ships
A cost saving ship that ended up being a money pit that had too many issues. They learned from their lessons and it's time to move forward. It's a wise decision of cutting your losses.
It's also a wise decision to spent your money multiple times on the "wrong ships" so they can afford bigger yachts to impress chicks in the summer.
yep.. near $1bil per pop is so easy to say.... like money grows on trees or printed....... oops... they're just printed for free
As I recall, these LCS ships were forced on the Navy by Congress who wanted to create jobs in their home districts. The Navy didn't want them, and one Admiral famously testified that they would be floating coffins. Gee, guess what, it turns out that the Navy was right. I mean have we forgotten that the Freedom class was based on an Australia ferryboat.
It might make more sense to reconfigure the LCS for the Coast Guard.
Read this many times elsewhere and in many of these comments. A key problem with LCS is they are very expensive to operate and maintain. In peacetime, the US Coast Guard is funded by the Department of Homeland Security which tends to have a smaller budget than the Department of Defense. As a result, the Coast Guard generally chooses lower-cost, lower capability ships than the US Navy. If the Coast Guard accepted expensive LCS's, they would likely siphon funds away from more financially viable cutters like the Hamiltons. This would reduce Coast Guard sea coverage and especially the long range patrols to the Western Pacific. The Coast Guard also operates unique vehicles like the Dolphin helicopters that might require expensive reconfiguration for use on the LCS's or the use of the expensive Seahawk (Blackhawk) helicopters to maintain LCS compatibility. After WW2, the Navy passed many vessels on to the Coast Guard, but the ships were less costly and less specialized in those days.
"The Constellation class is based on an existing class of ships" except the US Navy's specifications for it have completely altered every aspect of them (they're longer, wider, with a different set of engines, a completely different sensor suite and twice the the missile armament).
I agree. But is that a refinement or a revolution. I'd argue it's a refinement but don't worry military have a way of screwing it up
@@wavavoom Agreed. The Navy first started moving to missile heavy instead of gun heavy platforms decades ago with the Ticonderoga Class Cruisers and Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers. So a Heavy Cruiser of Battlecruiser scale ship built around the same philosophy does seem a logical next step. And yes, the first ships will be "screwed up" and have a ton of problems that will eventually get ironed out and the ships will become the norm for the fleet.
""The Constellation class is based on an existing class of ships" except the US Navy's specifications for it have completely altered every aspect of them"
Exactly!!
They should have gone for the Type 26, like the other 5 eyes.
@@kevinshort3943 They went for a more multi-purpose capable design. 26s are more ASW oriented, besides Type 26s are yet unproved, Anyway: the logical choice would have been Navantia's F-100. AEGIS frigates for an AEGIS navy. Politics tipped the ballance in favour of the Italians.
@@ernstschloss8794
"They went for a more multi-purpose capable design. 26s are more ASW oriented"
They are, but the Canadian and Australian variants aren't.
"Type 26s are yet unproved,"
And a design that has been altered in every way is?
"the logical choice would have been Navantia's F-100. AEGIS frigates for an AEGIS navy."
The Australian Type 26 is being fitted with AEGIS - it's only electronics.
"Politics tipped the ballance in favour of the Italians."
Yes, or they would have gone for the more modern and capable type 26 - admittedly it is more expensive, but economies of scale and all that.
One use I could see for the LCS ships is to supplement the Cyclone-class patrol ships, stationed in the Persian Gulf, deterring / defending against small boat attacks preferred by Iran.
I can see those ships supplement a small fleet, but the main purpose of a frigate-sized ship is to support larger ship types and fleets. It so happens Frigates are good coastal vessels. Dumb Navy is trying to build a ship for the wrong reasons.
It would only be a larger, less maneuverable target.
Anti mine and submarine to support large attack groups especially in the South China Sea
I don't see a use for a frigate ship that's armed like a corvette and has the upkeep cost of a destroyer.
@@hypothalapotamus5293 unfortunately we are stuck with them at a time when we need MORE warships, and it is going to take a few years to acquire better replacements. Best we can do in the interim is make the best chicken salad we can out of these piles of chicken 💩.
"The sea was angry that day my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."
they are so great because one can look out the bridge wing to see traffic. what matter is that they look cool, that's the most important thing.
They certainly look cool
Military spending is the largest segment of federal discretionary spending.
It's also the main way that the United States subsidizes industry (while claiming that they don't)
Yes you're right, but it's not the largest part of the federal budget, that would be health services!
@@dundonrl Really? Definitely not getting your money's worth out of that.
The US is behind almost everybody in the fight against the virus.
Yes. And yet it seems so modest now compared with all the Covid expenses.
@@dundonrl , Are you sure. In 2019, pre-pandemic, health services was only 5% of federal discretionary spending. Defense was 61% and veterans benefits at 7%.
Also, don’t confuse health benefits that employees and employers have already paid for out of their paycheck. The same goes for Social Security. Those are non-discretionary.
America
free college: nah
cool boat: yah
I remember when I was kid my friends would rip their shoes so their parents would buy them new ones
I would have been wearing ripped shoes for a while.
This whole thing sounds like the Navy's version of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Pentagon Wars Mk 2.
Pretty much.
Those same Bradley's that did in Iraq a better job than the Abrams M1 against heavy tanks?
@@2adamast Yeah, those Bradleys. They spent way more money on them than they'd originally planned making it a do-everything vehicle. The Bradley luckily ended up a good vehicle, thanks in part to the failures of their target vehicles. The LCS is also a good ship, but not for what the Navy wants to use them for. They should have been Coast Guard ships.
The Bradley ended up being an excellent vehicle and STILL is. It's only now that we're in the absolute beginner stages of making prototypes to replace them DECADES later. The same seems to be happening with the Freedom class today.
I was taught that the more complicated a thing is made, the more problems it will have. This has always proven to be true, in my experience.
A telescope has few moving parts, but a complex RADAR is more useful most of the time. A tomahawk missile is probably more technologically complex than most of the ships that carry it, and it's meant to be destroyed when used!
If it were not for the failed Zumwalt and LCS program the US navy would by now already have over 300 ships.
Realize the LCS was originally conceived as a throw away, one hit and dead. The idea was to build a butt load of them to swarm the opponent. STUPID, and they finally came to their senses and tried to beef up the LSC to be more than a target but that was to late
Mark Fay US MMC Jr. Engineer QMED AS-E
U.S can't be like that, they need big hold your ground ships because U.S navel warfare revolves around their carriers sending out 20 aircraft with at least two anti ship missiles each.
lol they claim is has a low crew count then proceed to compare it to a ship 3x larger with slightly more than 3x the crew members
@The Paradox Destroyer nah the ships are expensive trash that would be taken out by 1-2 anti ship missiles or a zerg of 50 jihad bomb boats.
It's an bit a ridiculous that the door jammed when the reporter try to leave the boat...
Thats military grade hardware!
ua-cam.com/video/GrN7eW2OSWw/v-deo.html
Didn’t show his Covid-19 passport yet :)
Anyone remember when the goal was 500 ships at any cost? Regardless of the costs or additions to the deficit?
@Cheese Um, so we aren’t taken over and possibly killed? It’s happened to just about every nation throughout history and it’s bound to happen to us at some point
Sure. I also remember Mr. Gorbachev tearing that wall down because the Soviets couldn't keep up. It was money well spend to rid the world of the dangerous evil of Soviet Communism.
@Cheese Not the slightest little bit.
@Cheese As it existed in the Soviet Union, absolutely. It's just about tied with Nazism as the worst, most murderous ideology and system of government in human history. Of course, you can't make an omelette without murdering a few million people, at least if you're Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot.
@Cheese You're hilarious. And so wrong it hurts.
With such small crew numbers, it should be an efficient design as long as it doesn't have to do any fighting.
any fighting or any maintenance
sell those ships to the Phillipines
That's the thing; you can't even fight a fire for any length of time because of lack of bodies. It becomes an abandon ship scenario quickly.
At nearly a billion dollars each? I'd rather have a new Arliegh Burke and even those are getting a little long in the teeth.
@@davidburroughs2244 around 4 million each.
The LCS class ships would be good for the Coast Guard.
Yes
except in many way that it isn't. the cost to build and run is way too high for normal coastguard use. Majority of the weapon and electronic systems and technologies has to be stripped and replaced because the coast guard has no use for them or too much technical skills and upkeep is required (cutting edge stealth system and cruise missiles, defences and electronic warfare systems). It's cheaper to build the coastguard a new ship than make them use this one, it's designed and built for a very specific role. like handing a F35 to the police to replace some helicopters.
Better hang on and up funding across the board and kick the ass of these defense contractors who need competition and urgency we have a War coming Damn soon! Better such it up boys or we'll all be cannon foder for Chinese invasions!
No. A doesn’t have the range, costs too much to operate, and inferior in every way to the ships the Coast Guard has.
What about retiring the ship to restart a public transportation service on the great lakes between USA and Canada? The new companies would simply have to fix the non functioning engines and build amenities on board to provide for passenger comfort...
The trimaran is an adaption of an Australian fast car ferry. Two Australian companies (Incat and Austal) dominate the fast (35 to 50 knots) car ferry sector and sell a lot of ships to Asia and Europe. BUT the USA has never accepted them. Two examples. A service in the Bay of Fundy failed because people preferred to drive around the bay, even though it took 4 hours longer and in Hawaii the airlines lobbied to close down a fast inter island ferry because by claiming that it was bad for the environment. So they could be used as fast car ferries elsewhere, but not in North America.
I just recently noticed that USS Freedom LCS-1, was just decommissioned, I was surprised, since it is pretty young.
Take care, and all the best.
I wish the strength of a nation is determined by the quality of life, health care and education... rather than military spending
Books don’t go “shroof!”
If only.
Without the US Military to protect and defend our Constitutional and Civil Rights there will be NO quality of life, healthcare and education - the minute our Military is gone, we will get invaded by Russia and China and all Human Rights will END .. and if the American People had elected #Eisenhower #REPUBLICAN #BradHartliep in 2020, 2016 and 2012, instead of LIARS and CONARTISTS and Elitist sellouts Obama, Biden, Hillary, Sanders and Trump, the American People would have a GREAT National Healthcare System - one that Brad Hartliep has been actively supporting since 1990, one that would cover ALL Healthcare issues from Birth to death, and one that would put "obamacare for the rich elite" [ which the Poorest American Citizens can't afford and have been forced out of - by Obama] and all the healthcare plans in Canada, UK, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark to shame, and our children would be receiving the GREATEST STEM Education in the world, and our Infrastructure would have already been rebuilt, and our communities would be bicycle and walking traffic friendly, and America would not be the disaster it has become under Biden, Trump, Obama, Bush and Clinton .. REAL Progressive Growth in America - REAL Civil Rights in America - REAL Equality for Minorities and Women in America - did not come about because of the Democratic Party [ who supported and promoted Racism and opposed Civil Rights for more than 200 years] - they exist, and were invented by, and were promoted by, and were passed into law by, the #Eisenhower #TeddyRoosevelt, #Lincoln, #JohnAdams #REPUBLICAN Party .. And that's the Leadership America needs in 2024 ~ #BradHartliep 2024 President, #LaunchAmericaForward ..
I agree but both would be better with less govt involvement. Just like defense
Lockmart? Ha ha
Ah yes... The LCS.. it's technically not a success since there's no job for it but it's technically not a failure either since there's no job for it to do it badly
Basically we predicted a future of terrorist response that we didn't need. It's designed for a problem that doesn't exist
Dude the door broke during a training exercise with the media. With its past reliability issues idk how else to say it..... looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its a failure.
@@gabekillian2761 'we predicted'? You are a U.S general with 7 bars on your chest? Dude you cannot even end sentences yet. Go back to school kid.
It floats quite badly as the aluminium gains stress fractures. I think they forgot aircraft are entirely replaced every few years.
@@carbon1255 Hehe sure they 'replacd' the B53's from ... the 1950s? Your funny. Bad trolling though. We all know it's not true.
It seems like just yesterday congress was debating the littoral stimulus. Conservatives though the need was a myth.
So is more tanks that the army doesn’t want. But conservatives pushed for them and now they have more tanks than they want or need.
Conservatives never prioritize clitoral stimulus.
Great report.
I think there is a different dimension to some of these arguments about how successful these ships are and it should also be considered that a number or % of these projects will fail but they never fail entirely in so much as a great deal is learned in these projects and many of the technologies developed for these platforms evolve and mature into systems that will be latterly used in combat. There is a cost to being number one and developing new technologies that other countries will eventually try to replicate and I say this as someone who isn’t American.
This was a colossal failure...
When you have to have civilians come on board just for general housekeeping? It's sad. The captain and executive officer had cleaning stations. Nothing more embarrassing than seeing the Captain of a ship high dusting and waxing the deck... I was discussed!!!
China: How you are fking up a whole gen of ships
US: I have no idea!
Sometimes you strike out when trying new things, new methods, new technologies. Sometimes you hit a metaphorical home run, like with trying new recipes or restaurants, other times they are abject failures. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I will say this, though. Any Congress person who called for defense contractors eating the cost of delivering garbage quality hardware, like Lockheed Martin engines that constantly break down, would die under mysterious circumstances.
Right. Put new technology on any scams and chances are you be making tons of money
Whoa..... !
I hear this all the time, but no one has provided any evidence ever for this. Could someone help guide me to resources that support this?
I agree with the others commenting that they should be transfered to the Coast Guard or National Guard Naval Militia.
As a Dual Canadian/American, I think Canada would be smart to buy them for Artic Patrol.
We spend billions on war but can't feed the poor...
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron. ― Dwight D. Eisenhower
Why didn't the US Navy just built a traditional Corvette or a small frigate class design for coastal waters ?
The USS John S McCain, DL3 was capable of 41.2 knots and it tested at that speed when I was aboard in 63-66. Of course it had engine problems, too
Tactical strings on the propulsion levers are just great!
@Joe Griffin Simple one. CHCl3.
Great weekly summary!
You called them ‘conex boxes’ instead of ‘shipping containers’! I haven’t heard many people outside of rural Alaska call them that!
Then again I live in rural Alaska so I don’t see or hear many people.
I live in North Carolina and we call them Conex's at work.
It's ok man! Conex boxes was their original name. I wondered what happened to the name.
21 LCS Ships at 900 million each would have bought us about 10 Arleigh Burke Flight III Destroyers at 1.83 Billion per ship, and in ANY fight I'd take the 10 Destroyers over the LCS. We could have had 19 more for the cost of the R&D for Zumwalt plus the procurement cost of 3 ships, a total cost of 34.4 BILLION dollars. That's 30 top of the line Destroyers, proven warships, in their latest configuration, Flight III.
I used to think the aluminum hull design was crazy, until I read up on what the logic behind it actually is. First of all, it's lighter and cheaper. Second, there is actually very little difference between an aluminum ship and a steel ship in terms of the damage it takes from modern naval weapons (for that type of ship, it's going to be catastrophic damage no matter what you do). But most importantly, the Navy has different categories of ship survivability that are based on the utility of the ship. A carrier is in the first category, and that means they will attempt to save a stricken carrier no matter what. A category two ship is one which the Navy will attempt to save up to a certain level of damage, and then will abandon. A category three ship is one which the Navy won't bother trying to save if it takes significant damage. So if any anti-ship missile is enough to knock out such a vessel regardless of what it's made of, and if you don't plan on trying to put too much effort into saving it, the differences between aluminum and steel are very little. That gives aluminum the advantage as it is corrosion-resistant on top of being light weight.
Hmmm. I wonder how they saved ships like the Franklin during WW2? And a whole lot of other battle damaged ships that today would be given up on. How easy would it be to repair aluminium, can you do it at sea? Steel hull and aluminum upper decks and fixtures?
Obviously you’ve never heard of the USS Belknap… or the Falklands War.
Aluminum is a terrible idea in warships.. and the US had learned that lesson which is why the Spruance, Perry, Arleigh Burke etc were all steel.
@@jackgray305 Totally agree,just ask the sailors that were at San Carlos.
Aluminium is 3x more expensive than steel.
You can take a pocket knife and put a fairly deep scratch into that aluminum, it may be thick but the softness is crazy.
The ship's guns are underpowered for sure. War simulations have shown this. Simply amazing the level of incompetency in the military.
So what I'm hearing is that you don't want to be a seamen on that ship
2:08 calling them variants is misleading.
They are 2 completely different ships in the same class.
I mean we don't call the yf32 a variant of the f35.
Or the yf23 a variant of the f22.
Those boats seem to be an Engineman"s nightmare. I shutter at the amount of PMS checks and Engineering watches they have to perform.
There more of an electricians nightmare
@@magmafoxx7747 How about a combined Snipes Nightmare then lol.
Imagine if you filled that rear deck with VLS cells. All of a sudden, you'd have a small ship with a hell of a lot of firepower that could be outfitted any number of ways. You'd probably have to remove that CIWS from the roof and launch smaller helocopters from there but that would be a worthwhile tradeoff IMO.
They should just get rid of the flight deck and mission bay and simply install a huge VLS array and turn these things into arsenal ships.
A helicopter is far more valuable than a VLS.
They made that mistake on the Flight I Arleigh Burkes even though the Spruances, Kidds, and Ticonderogas had them. The Royal Navy also made that mistake on the Type 82. Never again.
I'm curious why is one heli more valuable then a bunch missiles ready to launch?
@@Bartonovich52 Having another 80 cells for various missiles is far more important than redundant helicopters.
8:20 that humming sound in the back of the A/C going nuts literally reminded me of my own navy time:D Listening to that whining all night long
The LCS-2 looks good and has a decent performance, and I didn't know that there is a Constellation class.
There’s also Zumwalt successor and Ticonderoga successor programs currently in the concept phase. But that’s the issue. We need ship replacements in those areas and they aren’t coming along fast enough
ua-cam.com/video/GrN7eW2OSWw/v-deo.html
They aren't built yet. The Navy is modifying a FREM class vessel for the new Constellation. This won't be floating for a couple of years.
Many thanks!
@@swaghauler8334 The first two ships of the class have already been had lead funds authorized. They just laid down the keel for the first one.
I remember, Discovery Channel made a documentary both of these two ships and bragged so much about it. Decades later the Navy declared that the two ships was a flop.
The hulls of the all aluminum ships is plagued with cracking structural welds when used in rough weather, seems like a poor design.
Saying the 50mm gun is "big" is a BIG overstatement.
If the Navy wants to cut its losses with these ships, let them.
I have years working on the open ocean . This particular tri-hull design is a steel anchor .
This ship is not a blue water vessel .
It would need to outrun any big weather or be pounded beneath the waves !
I think that is unfair, it is not an issue of a tri hull- it is under armed and incapable, which would be fine if it didn't cost the same as a warship. The tri hull doesn't make it that weather unsuitable, but it is light aluminium for as low draft as possible and it is tiny.
Thank god we dodged this bullet in Greece and chose the french design which is a proper ship.
yeah... nice choice
Never Forget the USS Liberty! 💖🇺🇸
That was memory holed 54 years ago. LBJ ordered all the radio intercepts destroyed and ordered the navy to say they had never existed, even though multiple sailors testified before Congress that they existed and the sailors had heard them.
Why have public healthcare if you can just buy more ships?
There's no such thing as a "healthy" nation who's just been blown up by its enemies hypersonic missles 🤨
@@jonjeskie5234 It's worked for us and other developed nations since 1945. You lot just choose to be "different" because of "muh freedom"
I realize that many people, including the Congress, the president and the Supreme Court don’t care about the laws our republic was founded on, however I hesitate to point out the obvious. Namely that the US Constitution does not allow for public healthcare. Since it isn’t mentioned, then it is a power that is reserved to the states or to the people. On the other hand, defense of the Republic is a responsibility of the Federal government specified and mandated in the Constitution.
If you're taking up the cost and role of being the west's protector you afford it or you let the little guys do that all their own. That's why most nations whose populations of 5 million to 80 million do not have have huge standing armies, navies, air forces and space forces 🤣
@@phillipsmith4814 So let me see now? How many times has the inviolable US Constitution been amended? And how many times have amendments been deleted?
Its a thin argument to blame your Constitution for operating a Health Care Industry rather than a Health Care Service. If your argument stood up there would never have been the 2nd Amendment and hundreds of thousands of Americans wouldn't have died unnecessarily. But then 26,000 Americans die each year for lack of health insurance and thousands are bankrupted.
Still got to keep those profits going to the party donors right?
Hi NZ here, we'll have them! Honestly with the missions the RNZN carries out we could use them here. I am sure a deal could be struck and these vessels modernised and refitted to NZ specifics. They are capable War Ships, i think the deficits they have could be rectified.
There was nothing wrong with Navy's early decision, because USA had to prepare for fighting against terrorist groups or small nations all over the globe, light, fast ships with relatively small numbers of not so advanced weapons were enough; however now there is the "great power competition" which would involve heavy warships with numerous long range, high speed missiles, so Navy will need a lot of money to develop that kind of capability, it's reasonable!!
The problem is the ships don’t work.
the thing with the LCS is the design is incredibly brilliant in that if you want to bring in a ship with a certain package, such as ASW, put that package in the LCS and send it in. The problem is that does not quite work that way. instead of playing games with LCS system, they could have a DDG type class that is a bit better, overall, and have that instead of a class that is plagued with problems.
The LCS: over priced, under armed and mechanically unreliable, to boot.
Cant operate more than 1 day away from a gas station. Its useless
Welcome to usa
LCS = Little Crappy Ships
Just from viewing a large number of You Tube videos on the LCS concept and on missile boats and corvettes; the ship has some problems that could be worked around. Very few missile boats achieve a speed over 40 knots. The drive systems of the LCS vessels break down frequently. Could it be that 46 knots is trying to go a faster than one should go? The LCS is built in modules but missile boats or corvettes are sometimes built as well rounded combat systems with perminent weapon systems that include anti-aircraft missiles, ship to ship missiles, ship to shore capabilities even if its a rapid fireing Oto Melara or Bofors gun, torpedoes, and anti-sub search systems, and at times mid-range cruise missiles. They often employ stealth technologies. They can't carry large quanties of any one of these weapons and therefore can't sustain a long drawen out fight unless they are reconfigured to just a few tasks. They can take more damage than a ship built with modules. They require surveillance and targeting often from aircraft or drones often from the shore but if made bigger, which often defeats their laterial mission, they can carry a drone or helicopter with them, and they rely on larger number of similar vessels for sustaining a longer duration fight. The use of modules which are bolted in place, instead of welded in place may not achieve the versitilty or ruggedness that today's combat demands. As others mentioned, they may be better suited for the Coast Guard to protect our own shores where Coast Guard aircraft are covering them. Lattoral ships will still be needed for overseas deployment and the Cyclone boats or a beefed up and larger Cyclone boat may be more suitable. ( they are already in the USN's arsenal) Also, a look at other nations missile boat and corvette fleets would provide better answers to the USN's needs. Nations such as Israel, Turkey, Sweden, Finland, and Norway seem to have excellent fleets of smaller boats for Lattoral waters. They are not making them like we are trying to and they would be off the shelf, proven technology.
When was the last major sea battle undertaken by any modern navy? When was the last time a naval ship intercepted drug runners, human traffickers, refugees in distress, hurricane disaster relief, gun-boat diplomacy, or any number of other low-key naval duties? The USN LCS class is far more useful than the exotic destroyers, but I guess if your priority is to have a blue-water fleet that may never see any combat rather than carrying out other less glorious but far more worthwhile operations then yeah, go for it.
“Far more worthwhile operations” the USN keeps global shipping lanes open and allows the flow of trade. The last time the US wasn’t doing this resulted in the oil crisis in the 1970’s.
@@IpSyCo Yeah but that is what our Blue water navy is for.
LCS is littoral....
That's what the Coast Guard is for....
We still use carrier groups all the time. Not just as a deterrent, but for strike operations when the situation requires it (Afghanistan, isis, etc).
Number one: google PLA(N) assets.....Bluewater is mega...but...
These ships to a great degree were designed with the South China Sea/Caribe/Med/ Hormuz in mind.
Good concept...wrong material, ask the Royal Navy in the Falklands 82'....carbon laminate, ala Formula one is the way to go...
There is a reason some people call the LCS "Little Crappy Ship." Too lightly armed to survive a sea fight. .
I'm thinking the Navy should make some very small, very stealthy, unmanned, submersible, targeting boats. You launch them from a larger ship near the enemy coast.
These boats would obtain and retain a radar lock on multiple enemy targets. It would be hard for enemy radar to get a lock on them, but if any do, they could turn off their radar systems and pop under water. If you have 12 of them deployed, you might have 2 under water at any given time. They would be effective if only 4 are active.
These boats would relay tracking data back to the main fleet so the capital ships could launch missiles without generating their own radar signature.
The boats would be "attritable" but not expendable. That means we could afford to lose a few now and then but we try not to lose them.
These boats would be made on the cheap. You're putting many unmanned stealth boats in harm's way to lower the risk for larger expensive capital ships with hundreds of sailors on board. And unlike Aegis destroyers which take years to build, you can crank these boats out in a matter of weeks.
Let's add to the fun. It uses stealthy (low sonar) underwater pontoons. The top observable portion is stealthy to radar and turns like a 360 turret. This way, no matter what direction the boat is heading, a maximum stealth surface is always facing the enemy.
The underwater pontoons can link, making it possible to send out one boat to retrieve another that was damaged or ran out of fuel. Then bring it back to the deployment ship for repair.
Ukraine could sell us those
The Navy shouldn't be allowed to ignore the LCS disaster by sinking it. Those ships are still viable in this country's defense system and with modification can remain so for at least two more decades.
These ships were never able to defend themselves, they were undermanned, and the mission packages have still not come into service. There are major problems with the engineering plant and it is time to cut our losses. We are better off moving on to the new frigate which is a proven design already being built. There has been numerous deployment failures.
So if we pass on paying for a new class of frigates, what happens? Are our current frigates obsolete? Is more missiles, in cells, worth spending this money. And as far as the LCS being outgunned by Chinese and Iranian ships...what happened to all the others ships the Navy has? Those wouldnt be involved in the fight? The 30 LCS ships would be the only ones fighting? These big defense expenditures need to be challenged. There are more important priorities in this nation.
Or better still.... Don't get us into any damned wars.
All the other ships in the navy will be busy fighting Chinese warships. They don't have time to babysit these ferry boats disguised as navy ships. The navy wasted billions on these aluminum cans while a lack of real war-fighting frigates became a crisis. China is building a lot more warships than we are. We wasted years and billions on the LCS.
Why spend money on ships if we have nukes...
Obviously you have never served in the USN. You're voicing political opinions about missions that we've completed, both wartime, humanitarian and peacekeeping. Retired Navy Chief.
Why build schools or hospitals, when we already have schools and hospitals? Can't the kids or sick people just go to those? Your comment is very silly.
Yea and the us government was pushing the hellenic government to buy these ships in extrordinary price for the navy, supporting that this choice was the best for Greece's requirments for the Aegean sea .Hadnt the AUKUS alliance been taken into progress , the hellenic navy would have spent 5 billions for 4 ships that were useless for the today's combat requirments . Thank God we chose the Bellhara frigates and we are capapble to defend effectively our sea
It is crazy that they are still building these when there is an urgent need for the new frigates. All the work on these ships should stop now and additional frigate construction should start now.
there is a thing called a contract and there are penalties when you leave one.... just saying it might be cheaper to continue than to stop....
I saw another movie where Austal was building a new steel ship yard. Possibly for new frigate?
@@indyrock8148 Maybe, but the US has already selected the new frigates and they won't be Austral.
@@calcrappie8507 maybe Austral will contract build some.
I understand the LDS problems were not manufacturing quality?
Canada should buy them to prepare an Arctic coastal defense squadron for when the Arctic thaws and opens up to international trade. Which is... Soon
Coast guard right now excited for those new ships lol
Oh,...."littoral ships". At first I wondered why a ship was named after a woman's nether regions.
I am somewhat confused. Are you thinking that "littoral" is the same as "clitoral"??
@@erichoppe8228
You should go sit down in a quiet room and ponder your lack of understanding. The multiple people who clicked 👍apparently understood my humorous intent.
An Argentine plane tagged an all-Aluminum British ship with an Exocet off the Falklands and it went up like a Roman candle. The military budget is too high as it is, but at least they should build ships with fire-resistant Aluminum so they last a little longer. Another idea might be to get into shorter wars.
The future belongs to smaller unmanned hunter/killer class ships and subs….
BS. No one will ever be stupid enough to go to a completely unmanned force.
@@danielhaire6677 In a few decades you will be eating your words. And a few decades after that humanity will be eaten by robots
Great idea! We can call it... Skynet.
Ditto. USCG Always Ready.
I was a welder at Marinette Marine for the first 3 freedom class ships. Also worked at the Austal facility in Mobile Alabama in 2006 on upgrading the infrastructure there for the new contract for the independence class ships.
So this is your fault?
The original concept of the LCS is a sound one. They were conceived as ships performing specialized missions that don't put them in high intensity surface fights. Missions like interdiction, counter piracy, minesweeping, and ASW could be handled by these ships while at the same time freeing larger surface combatants to perform their primary missions.
LCS's were never meant to be ships of the line in the same vein as a cruiser or destroyer.
Aside from the problems with the ships (every new class of ships goes through problems), the major problem is the lack of working mission packages. The only one in operation is the surface warfare package. The Mine warfare and ASW packages are still in development and are years behind schedule and over budget.
navy can get billions when rest of the country either in recession, pandemic, and debt
In the communities where shipbuilding pays the bills, this is very much a "jobs" program. The Navy doesn't "get" the money, they make what are known in economics as transfer payments- tax money is redirected to civilian workers for engineering, construction, maintenance, and training activities. The sailors get paid, too. That was always nice.
Small ships our ww2 fleet consisted of ships that were restricted by the naval treaties. So the fletchers that were around 2500 tons doesnt even tip the scales as much as the LCS does and it is a destroyer.
I’ve never built a warship but you give me $30,000,000,000 i guarantee I could build the best god damn ships ever built.
The LCS has been a problem since it hit the water .
More controversial than the Ford-class carriers? Looking back into the Navy's past, you can find any number of examples of classes of ships that ended up being used for missions very different from the original intent. The 10 fast battleships that the U.S. built just before and during WWII weren't originally intended to escort aircraft carriers and conduct surface bombardments of enemy territory. Our 'fleet boat' submarines built before and during WWII likewise were intended to serve as scouts for the battle line and attack enemy fleet units as part of a larger battle, not throttling the enemy by destroying his merchant marine. Our patrol boats, hydrofoil (PBH) of the 1960s-1980s were envisioned for lots of missions other than what they ended their careers doing, protecting Key West and escorting the training carrier Lexington (AVT-16) during flight ops in the Key West oparea. Ballistic missile submarines had their missions changed, and underwent reconstruction to adapt to new uses. A couple dozen WWII fleet boats had faulty diesel engines and had to have them completely replaced before they were finally able to complete their assigned missions. These LCS platforms are hardly the first propulsion system scandal to hit the Navy, and who among us believes they will be the last, or that an ever-changing world dynamic will never again require the Navy to adapt and overcome, like the Marines?
I always thought Zumwalt class destroyers were the biggest failure...
@@Gentleman...Driver their only a fail if they never get a superior offense/defense system to function on them. Sooooooooooo... any day NASA you wana install those doom lasers and death rays on the Zumwalt ;D
Maybe install some form of liquid metal shield barrier if they can develop that somehow. See a incoming missile launch, deploy the liquid metal shield... I wonder if the force of the missile would push the boat far enough into the water that it would start to sink though even if it survived the explosion/impact of it... maybe the shield could be designed to keep the missile from exploding somehow... like fry the electronics without detonating the explosives... probably not... i mean if you could slam something into the nose of the missile it might smash the detonator and keep it from activating though... but maybe its designed to detonate if something starts to smash it :/
The LCS was doomed when the Navy cancelled the Zumwalt destroyers. The Zumwalt were meant as command, control, defensive, and offensive capabilities, for numerous LCS’s simultaneously, sailing just off littoral areas, patrolled by the LCSs, with Zumwalt relying on its stealth, sensors, radars, and massive technologies for the defense of the LCSs and themselves. They were all created as a cohesive unit. THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED CONSTRUCTION and CANCELLED THE LCSs the minute they chose to stop building Zumwalts. Then for every pair of the two types of LCSs that were already built, the should have built and finished one Zumwalt. Then they would have had something really useful, just as they did with what F22s that they finished when they cancelled the order for 700.
The original vision for the Zumwalt and LCSs must have disappeared with the exit of key personnel from the Navy. I get it, the dream of the Zumwalt proved too costly, but they should have stopped the construction of the LCSs, and then completed a Zumwalt for every pair of them that had already began construction.
cLITTORAL. need to start it with stimulus package first.
I wouldn’t try to cut down a tree with it, but the little keychain Swiss Army knife serves its purpose. They seem like great assets in the right application. The overall costs decrease with every one built.
Lockheed Martin exists: Time to go way over budget with a brittle and fragile hull.