Thanks for the comment. Yes quite hard to get a transom hung lifting rudder to work with windvane steering linkage! Not perfect but works reasonable well. Cheers Mark
Thanks for the comment. Trouble with all the measurements is that every boat is that little bit different. The system in the video was changed and modified numerous times in the last few months to improve its performance. You might notice the awful looking welds that have been ground and rewelded many times. I suspect I will continue to tweak it some more although I am pretty happy with it now. The main points I make in the video about vane rake, vane to trim tab movement ratio, width of the trim tab and most importantly the feed back on the control lever are the things that make any vane system really work. Cheers Mark
I have a Privateer 20 a cutter rigged trailer sailer. This is the best video I have seen on this subject, full of very informative technical and practical info thank you!! My boat is under full restoration at the moment so I am a long way from adding a wind vane system but I will certainly store this for future reference. My rudder is quite flimsy and some owners have redesigned the shape to get better balance so will need to work I guess but many thanks for taking the time to post this on Utube well done.
Hi Peter. Glad you found it informative. This is my second trim tab style wind vane. The principles behind wind vane steering are simple in theory, low friction, balancing rudders and building in feedback that stops over steering. People have often asked for construction detail but each boat is different and it can be a bit of an art to get it gelling with a particular boat but very rewarding when you get it right. I am toying around with a tiller mounted servo pendulum style system at the moment which will give more steering power on my boat that is harder to balance than my previous boats. Thanks for the comments. Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES OK Mark, I have never sailer my boat! I bought it 18 months ago and I have been restoring it ever since inside and out. Although I have owned boats of and on for 40 years large and small I never quite realised how much time and effort is needed to get a boat back into condition after it has been let go, The hull is sound but all the fittings were in need of refixing and replacing. Until I sail it I won't know how it handles and how much weather helm there is etc and it can be balanced with sails setting etc.
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES Yes Mark, what is good about boat work is that it keeps my brain ticking over looking to practical neat solutions to problems that crop up. I find it it quite satisfying. My wife thinks other wise of course!!
well done Mark!....... sheer genius...........once again. When you owned Halcyon, you had an excellent web page on everything. Modifications and equipment etc. have you thought of doing the the same for Neringa cheers Tony W .....i'm very impressed. I will buy you a beer one day!
Hi Tony. Thanks for the comments, not sure if they are entirely deserved. As you might have guessed I love tinkering on my boat. The website I built has been modified and is still on the web with all the Halcyon Days stuff still on it. It took a lot of programming on my part and needs a lot of work if I am to continue using it. Google has changed the rules on using their maps so I would have to teach myself a whole lot of new coding to fix that. My picture upload code has also stopped working and I haven't been able to work out why, suspect its actually something the hosting company has changed but not sure. Long story short it would probably take me a month of full time work to fix it. You can still browse it ok except the maps now have water marks all over them. If you are interested the address is www.sharemyadventure.net. It was changed to be multi adventure site and you will see a tab "Halycon Days" for the old adventure pages for Halcyon. If I ever get around to fixing it I may start an adventure page for Neringa. The beer sound great! Cheers Mark
This is a really very informative video, thank you so much for sharing your experiments. As some other commenter, I also would have like some kind of drawing, to better figure out the system as a whole. I understand, the « one size fits all » rules don’t apply here, and measurments are very specific to each boat. But a global view of the system, or if it could be less time consuming for you, some still pictures of each parts shared somewhere on the internet would be awesome. Thanks again !
I will see what I can do, it might be a while as I am really busy with preparations for 3 months cruising in the Kimberley. The basic design can be seen in the video including a couple of vane head measurements that would help. I will get some measurements of the control lever and bell crank and levers on the trim tab. The tube I use is 32mm and that would be the minimum to allow movement of the push rod. How this tube is held in position is highly dependent on the set up of your boat. The push rod is 5mm stainless, needs to be the lightest it can be without bending in use. The counterweight on this one is 3KG as there was not enough space on my boat to make it longer. As mentioned in the video it would work better if this was lighter and the arm its attached to is longer as it reduces friction on the pivots in the head. It need to be just heavy enough to return the vane to vertical in no wind. Friction needs to be kept as minimal as possible for best results. All my pivot bolts are 6mm to create metal on metal bearings and I use nylon washers on any flat surfaces that may rub. The pintle rod of the trim tab is 10mm stainless rod as it has to provide for sideways stress of the trim tab that is only held at the top. The extra flat you see on the video was added to provide extra sideways strength and may not have been needed but I wanted to be sure for rougher conditions. Unfortunately the rest is super dependent on the specific boat, rudder box design and specific dimensions. Even the downward bend in the control lever and trim tab levers will depend entirely on the shape and measurements of the tiller handle and rudder box. The really critical elements mentioned in the video are the things that make it work. I call it the 20% rule. Trim tab width is 20% or the average rudder width. Trim tab is balanced by having it vertical rotation 20% from the front edge. The control lever attachment to bell crank on the tiller handle is 20% of the average width of the rear edge of the rudder to the pintles either forward or rearward of the pintles. In my last windvane it was behind and on top of the rudder.(swing rudder) Depending on if you put it forward or rearward of the pintles you then have to make sure the lever on the head is on the correct side. This takes a bit of logic as you want the movement of the head to cause the rudder to steer back towards the wind. If you get this wrong it will turn away from the wind and broach the boat. This one it is forward of the pintles to allow the dagger board rudder to be lifted. The rearward rake of the vane head is nice to have but it can also be eliminated to make the design simpler. On most boats it would still work well, the RL28 is hard to balance and the rake helps a bit. As you can see there are a lot of 20% measurements that are 20% of a specific boat measurement. Always happy to problem solve with peoples own projects as they go along. Cheers Mark
If you rebuild this system to make the axis of the wind vane blade at the top of the vane blade you eliminate the need for a counterweight and improve responsiveness in gusty conditions.
In principle that sounds like a great idea, I am not sure how you would get the linkages down past the swinging vane is the only problem I would see. The idea of reducing the weight of the system is a good one though. Cheers Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES I did it by using small lines run down through the central tube that holds the wind vane blade. Could send you a picture or short video if you want.
Just found your Channel I have a trailer sailboat 26 foot and I am searching for information for a wind vane for it. Do you have other videos concerning your construction of your vane. I would appreciate it very much so thank you in advance Jerry
Hi Jerry, This is my only windvane video although I did make another windvane years ago the details were on my own adventure website which I have since discontinued. The main questions to ask would be: 1) is your rudder transom hung? 2) is your rudder a swing rudder or lift type? My current design was specifically for transom hung lift rudder which is difficult to design a windvane for. My previous design was for a swing rudder in which the trim tab was attached to the rudder blade itself like the flaps on an airplane wing. Either way the points made in this video are critical for a wind vane to work. As each boat is different unless it was for an RL28 giving measurements other than what was in the video already wouldn't be much help. The important things you must include are: 1) the lever controlling the trim tab must be 20% of the average rudder width(measured from the pintles to the rear edge) in front or behind the pintles to provide steering feedback. 2) 45 degrees of vane movement should translate into around 20 degrees of trim tab movement(a bit under half) 3) the trim tab should have a width no more than 20% of the rudder blade 4) Metal on metal bearings give least friction(friction in the system kills any wind vane efficiency. 5) 10 degree rearward rake in the vane is desirable but not essential, reduces over steering. 6) counter weight should be just heavy enough to return vane to vertical with no wind, lighter weights and longer balance arms work best. 7) If replicating the design in this video balancing the trim tab reduces steering pressures. This means the trim tab or steering rudder should rotate for steering around a line 10% of its width from the front edge. 8) Sail balance must be good for any windvane to work well. Hope this helps. Every boat is different but the above principles stay the same. Fitting to any boat is a fiddly process of trial an error as its not like the commercial units that bolt onto the back of your boat as a big self contained framework and just have ropes to the tiller to steer it. Trouble is most of the commercial ones wont work with a transom hung rudder. It is also important to remember that windvanes have limitations. They work best in winds 10 to 25 knots and can struggle in following seas and strong winds. I always carry an electric tiller pilot but use the windvane when every it is suitable... magical watching it do its work. Cheers Mark
Thanks for the quick reply Mark. My boat is a 1993 MacGregor 26s with swing keel and transom hung swing rudder it is around 3000 lbs to 3500 lbs in the water. Not sure if one would work on my boat. Sure could use some help when solo sailing. Hopefully I don't have to go with electronic unit and all it would intell. More electricity. What are your thoughts if one might work on my boat. I live ln Florida and want to do some costal sailing solo. So thanks again in advance. Jerry
No worries Jerry. the 26s is the one with the single transom hung rudder it should be workable. It would have to be along the lines of the trim tab vane I made for my first boat which I have sold a few years ago now. I do have rough plans and pictures of that system if I can get an email to send it to. Don't post emails in the comments here though. If you go to my channel and click on "about" apparently you should be able to send a private message. I will send you what I have to give you at least some idea of that system. Again how it is held on the boat will depend on what railing, push pits etc you have to work with. It will also depend on how the top of the rudder is constructed. Cheers Mark
I haven't got an email yet. I cant attach plans on the youtube email. When I get the email I will send you the plans but they are scans of my rough drawn plans. Cheers Mark
Hi. My qestion is will it work on catamarans, do you have the plans and drawings along with the measerments?. Wind vanes are very expnsive. not sutable for a catamaran. Gerard.
Hi Gerard. My system would probably not work on a catamaran unless you only use one rudder. I don't have plans as it took a lot of experimenting and changing to get it working. The things I talk about on the video are important. On a catamaran a servo pendulum design would work better controlling the twin tillers with lines but these are much more complicated to build. Every boat is different so plans don't often help as they have to be modified to the boat. Sorry cant be much more help than that. Cheers Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES Thanks for the reply. i ve been advised that boat i was looking at may have been on an older ad so it no longer avl. I just keep looking around. thanks again.
If it is a cruising cat, with balanced sails very little input is required. A simple air vane should suffice. Pete Hill on Oryx did so and sailed around the world
Hi Bruno, quite a few reasons. Unlike other commercial wind vanes which simply bolt onto an unobstructed transom, my design has to fit into the structures and attachments on the transom of most trailer sailers and so needs to be custom built to each type of TS. Even though physics of wind vanes are easy enough to understand, matching them to the sailing characteristics of each boat is a bit of an art, more so with trim tab designs. Things like sail balance, keel placement and hull design all complicate the process. And all of the above gives the main reason I wouldn't make them is the time involved. What people would be prepared to pay verses the time taken to build them would see me working for $1/hour. I love the challenge of building a wind vane that works but that would be as far as it goes. Cheers Mark
very good design and construction!
Thanks for the comment. Yes quite hard to get a transom hung lifting rudder to work with windvane steering linkage! Not perfect but works reasonable well. Cheers Mark
Best wind vane video on UA-cam by a long shot.
I dream of a complete set of stills with measurements.
Thank you for more great inspiration.
Thanks for the comment. Trouble with all the measurements is that every boat is that little bit different. The system in the video was changed and modified numerous times in the last few months to improve its performance. You might notice the awful looking welds that have been ground and rewelded many times. I suspect I will continue to tweak it some more although I am pretty happy with it now. The main points I make in the video about vane rake, vane to trim tab movement ratio, width of the trim tab and most importantly the feed back on the control lever are the things that make any vane system really work. Cheers Mark
I have a Privateer 20 a cutter rigged trailer sailer. This is the best video I have seen on this subject, full of very informative technical and practical info thank you!! My boat is under full restoration at the moment so I am a long way from adding a wind vane system but I will certainly store this for future reference. My rudder is quite flimsy and some owners have redesigned the shape to get better balance so will need to work I guess but many thanks for taking the time to post this on Utube well done.
Hi Peter. Glad you found it informative. This is my second trim tab style wind vane. The principles behind wind vane steering are simple in theory, low friction, balancing rudders and building in feedback that stops over steering. People have often asked for construction detail but each boat is different and it can be a bit of an art to get it gelling with a particular boat but very rewarding when you get it right. I am toying around with a tiller mounted servo pendulum style system at the moment which will give more steering power on my boat that is harder to balance than my previous boats. Thanks for the comments. Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES OK Mark, I have never sailer my boat! I bought it 18 months ago and I have been restoring it ever since inside and out. Although I have owned boats of and on for 40 years large and small I never quite realised how much time and effort is needed to get a boat back into condition after it has been let go, The hull is sound but all the fittings were in need of refixing and replacing. Until I sail it I won't know how it handles and how much weather helm there is etc and it can be balanced with sails setting etc.
@@peterhull100 I have always said half the joy of owning a boat is the tinkering. Sounds like you have a lot of that ahead of you... enjoy!
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES Yes Mark, what is good about boat work is that it keeps my brain ticking over looking to practical neat solutions to problems that crop up. I find it it quite satisfying. My wife thinks other wise of course!!
Great work.
You're a clever guy.👍👍👍
well done Mark!....... sheer genius...........once again. When you owned Halcyon, you had an excellent web page on everything. Modifications and equipment etc.
have you thought of doing the the same for Neringa cheers Tony W .....i'm very impressed. I will buy you a beer one day!
Hi Tony. Thanks for the comments, not sure if they are entirely deserved. As you might have guessed I love tinkering on my boat. The website I built has been modified and is still on the web with all the Halcyon Days stuff still on it. It took a lot of programming on my part and needs a lot of work if I am to continue using it. Google has changed the rules on using their maps so I would have to teach myself a whole lot of new coding to fix that. My picture upload code has also stopped working and I haven't been able to work out why, suspect its actually something the hosting company has changed but not sure. Long story short it would probably take me a month of full time work to fix it. You can still browse it ok except the maps now have water marks all over them. If you are interested the address is www.sharemyadventure.net. It was changed to be multi adventure site and you will see a tab "Halycon Days" for the old adventure pages for Halcyon. If I ever get around to fixing it I may start an adventure page for Neringa. The beer sound great! Cheers Mark
Amazing, love your work!
Great work!
This is a really very informative video, thank you so much for sharing your experiments. As some other commenter, I also would have like some kind of drawing, to better figure out the system as a whole. I understand, the « one size fits all » rules don’t apply here, and measurments are very specific to each boat. But a global view of the system, or if it could be less time consuming for you, some still pictures of each parts shared somewhere on the internet would be awesome. Thanks again !
I will see what I can do, it might be a while as I am really busy with preparations for 3 months cruising in the Kimberley.
The basic design can be seen in the video including a couple of vane head measurements that would help. I will get some measurements of the control lever and bell crank and levers on the trim tab. The tube I use is 32mm and that would be the minimum to allow movement of the push rod. How this tube is held in position is highly dependent on the set up of your boat. The push rod is 5mm stainless, needs to be the lightest it can be without bending in use. The counterweight on this one is 3KG as there was not enough space on my boat to make it longer. As mentioned in the video it would work better if this was lighter and the arm its attached to is longer as it reduces friction on the pivots in the head. It need to be just heavy enough to return the vane to vertical in no wind. Friction needs to be kept as minimal as possible for best results. All my pivot bolts are 6mm to create metal on metal bearings and I use nylon washers on any flat surfaces that may rub. The pintle rod of the trim tab is 10mm stainless rod as it has to provide for sideways stress of the trim tab that is only held at the top. The extra flat you see on the video was added to provide extra sideways strength and may not have been needed but I wanted to be sure for rougher conditions.
Unfortunately the rest is super dependent on the specific boat, rudder box design and specific dimensions. Even the downward bend in the control lever and trim tab levers will depend entirely on the shape and measurements of the tiller handle and rudder box.
The really critical elements mentioned in the video are the things that make it work. I call it the 20% rule. Trim tab width is 20% or the average rudder width. Trim tab is balanced by having it vertical rotation 20% from the front edge. The control lever attachment to bell crank on the tiller handle is 20% of the average width of the rear edge of the rudder to the pintles either forward or rearward of the pintles. In my last windvane it was behind and on top of the rudder.(swing rudder) Depending on if you put it forward or rearward of the pintles you then have to make sure the lever on the head is on the correct side. This takes a bit of logic as you want the movement of the head to cause the rudder to steer back towards the wind. If you get this wrong it will turn away from the wind and broach the boat. This one it is forward of the pintles to allow the dagger board rudder to be lifted. The rearward rake of the vane head is nice to have but it can also be eliminated to make the design simpler. On most boats it would still work well, the RL28 is hard to balance and the rake helps a bit. As you can see there are a lot of 20% measurements that are 20% of a specific boat measurement. Always happy to problem solve with peoples own projects as they go along. Cheers Mark
If you rebuild this system to make the axis of the wind vane blade at the top of the vane blade you eliminate the need for a counterweight and improve responsiveness in gusty conditions.
In principle that sounds like a great idea, I am not sure how you would get the linkages down past the swinging vane is the only problem I would see. The idea of reducing the weight of the system is a good one though. Cheers Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES I did it by using small lines run down through the central tube that holds the wind vane blade. Could send you a picture or short video if you want.
Mark you have out done your self.
Just found your Channel I have a trailer sailboat 26 foot and I am searching for information for a wind vane for it. Do you have other videos concerning your construction of your vane. I would appreciate it very much so thank you in advance Jerry
Hi Jerry, This is my only windvane video although I did make another windvane years ago the details were on my own adventure website which I have since discontinued. The main questions to ask would be: 1) is your rudder transom hung? 2) is your rudder a swing rudder or lift type? My current design was specifically for transom hung lift rudder which is difficult to design a windvane for. My previous design was for a swing rudder in which the trim tab was attached to the rudder blade itself like the flaps on an airplane wing.
Either way the points made in this video are critical for a wind vane to work. As each boat is different unless it was for an RL28 giving measurements other than what was in the video already wouldn't be much help. The important things you must include are: 1) the lever controlling the trim tab must be 20% of the average rudder width(measured from the pintles to the rear edge) in front or behind the pintles to provide steering feedback. 2) 45 degrees of vane movement should translate into around 20 degrees of trim tab movement(a bit under half) 3) the trim tab should have a width no more than 20% of the rudder blade 4) Metal on metal bearings give least friction(friction in the system kills any wind vane efficiency. 5) 10 degree rearward rake in the vane is desirable but not essential, reduces over steering. 6) counter weight should be just heavy enough to return vane to vertical with no wind, lighter weights and longer balance arms work best. 7) If replicating the design in this video balancing the trim tab reduces steering pressures. This means the trim tab or steering rudder should rotate for steering around a line 10% of its width from the front edge. 8) Sail balance must be good for any windvane to work well.
Hope this helps. Every boat is different but the above principles stay the same. Fitting to any boat is a fiddly process of trial an error as its not like the commercial units that bolt onto the back of your boat as a big self contained framework and just have ropes to the tiller to steer it. Trouble is most of the commercial ones wont work with a transom hung rudder. It is also important to remember that windvanes have limitations. They work best in winds 10 to 25 knots and can struggle in following seas and strong winds. I always carry an electric tiller pilot but use the windvane when every it is suitable... magical watching it do its work.
Cheers Mark
Thanks for the quick reply Mark. My boat is a 1993 MacGregor 26s with swing keel and transom hung swing rudder it is around 3000 lbs to 3500 lbs in the water. Not sure if one would work on my boat. Sure could use some help when solo sailing. Hopefully I don't have to go with electronic unit and all it would intell. More electricity. What are your thoughts if one might work on my boat. I live ln Florida and want to do some costal sailing solo. So thanks again in advance. Jerry
No worries Jerry. the 26s is the one with the single transom hung rudder it should be workable. It would have to be along the lines of the trim tab vane I made for my first boat which I have sold a few years ago now. I do have rough plans and pictures of that system if I can get an email to send it to. Don't post emails in the comments here though. If you go to my channel and click on "about" apparently you should be able to send a private message. I will send you what I have to give you at least some idea of that system. Again how it is held on the boat will depend on what railing, push pits etc you have to work with. It will also depend on how the top of the rudder is constructed. Cheers Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES I'll also send a message with my email if you wouldn't mind sending the plans.
I haven't got an email yet. I cant attach plans on the youtube email. When I get the email I will send you the plans but they are scans of my rough drawn plans. Cheers Mark
mdedman100 I didn’t see any place to send a private message.
If you go to the channel page and click on "about" I have now added an email link to use, I didn't realize it wasn't there automatically.
Hi. My qestion is will it work on catamarans, do you have the plans and drawings along with the measerments?. Wind vanes are very expnsive. not sutable for a catamaran.
Gerard.
Hi Gerard. My system would probably not work on a catamaran unless you only use one rudder. I don't have plans as it took a lot of experimenting and changing to get it working. The things I talk about on the video are important. On a catamaran a servo pendulum design would work better controlling the twin tillers with lines but these are much more complicated to build. Every boat is different so plans don't often help as they have to be modified to the boat. Sorry cant be much more help than that.
Cheers Mark
@@TRAILERYACHTADVENTURES
Thanks for the reply. i ve been advised that boat i was looking at may have been on an older ad so it no longer avl.
I just keep looking around.
thanks again.
If it is a cruising cat, with balanced sails very little input is required. A simple air vane should suffice. Pete Hill on Oryx did so and sailed around the world
Tasmanianoak is actually Eucalyptus regnens
Yes it is mountain ash but Bunnings sells it as Tasmanian Oak in Victoria. Cheers Mark.
Why don't you just build these for people?
Hi Bruno, quite a few reasons. Unlike other commercial wind vanes which simply bolt onto an unobstructed transom, my design has to fit into the structures and attachments on the transom of most trailer sailers and so needs to be custom built to each type of TS. Even though physics of wind vanes are easy enough to understand, matching them to the sailing characteristics of each boat is a bit of an art, more so with trim tab designs. Things like sail balance, keel placement and hull design all complicate the process. And all of the above gives the main reason I wouldn't make them is the time involved. What people would be prepared to pay verses the time taken to build them would see me working for $1/hour.
I love the challenge of building a wind vane that works but that would be as far as it goes.
Cheers Mark