HERSCHEL Infrared Heating - The Smart Route to Net Zero Heating
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- Опубліковано 19 кві 2022
- Robert speaks to Herschel Infrared CEO, Paul Morey, plus Domestic Sales Manager, Jane Lanceley, who share how their infrared heating solutions offer an attractive, affordable and readily available heating solution for those looking to decarbonise their heating.
Herschel Infrared provides a practical alternative to heat pumps - using radiant technology to optimise comfort levels and deliver an efficient heating solution. We discuss the results of their recent independent testing in a university chamber analysing the efficiency and comfort levels of Herschel Infrared alongside a heat pump and electric convector heater. The total costs of ownership of heating including servicing, purchase and installations costs are also considered to showcase how Herschel Infrared heating offers a very compelling electric heating solution.
For more information, visit: www.herschel-infrared.co.uk
More details on Herschel’s recent independent testing can be seen here.
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#herschelinfrared #infraredheating #electric #heating #netzero #climateaction - Наука та технологія
I totally agree with what they say here. I have a four bedroom detached house with an oil boiler. 18 months ago my boiler was coming to the end of its life. I wanted a backup system, so I put far infrared panels in every room in the house. At the same time I also purchased a heat pump. I still haven't connected the heat pump yet as the panels work amazingly well. You can heat each room as you require rather than the full house and you can set each room at the temperature you require to prevent condensation etc. The heat has got to be experienced to be understood. It is just like being in sunshine. Some mornings when we wake and go into the kitchen the panels may actually have switched off but you can tell that they have been on earlier because you feel the heat radiating off all the units, worktops etc. The kitchen is 14 feet by 24 feet and with three panels in there the room is warm within minutes, even when there is frost outside. When we purchased the panels there were not so many on the market and we had to get panels then separate thermostats and controllers for each. It is worth paying a little more to get the combined system as it is less hassle and cheaper in the long run. One word of warning. The heat is like sunshine on a summers day so once you are in a room with the panels on you find yourself falling asleep and not doing anything else as it is so relaxing - hence the reason the heat pump is still not connnected yet! At least that's what I tell my wife.!
Would also appreciate the feedback on this.
Difficult question as it depends how you will use them. If you plan to continue to heat every room in your house I am guessing it will be more expensive than gas or oil. If you set the panels to mainly heat the rooms you are using and just keep the chill off the rooms that you don't use then it would be probably a little cheaper than gas or oil. My mother lives alone in a 3 bed house, has panels and heats only the rooms she is using. She reckons her gas bill is now 40% less and her electric bill has only increased a little. In our house the situation is more complicated as we have solar panels and batteries, so can charge up cheaply at night and then use this in the day. Also when it is sunny our heating is either cheap or free. The key really is the efficient management and timing of use. Some panels can have sensors so they come on when the temperature drops below a certain level or if you walk into the room. This would be the cheapest way of managing cost.
Heat pump uses electricity at night when running and is drawing Heat from cold outside air. Just a comment.
We think of the efficiency of the heat pump but it needs to transport the heated fluid to where it is needed.
Sometimes something is 25% of the costs per unit and we use 5 units!!!
The financing costs are invisible too many. The maintenance costs are in the future.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 To maintain the temperature they most likely need to be run all the time at least when it is cold as, running at a lower temperature than oil or gas they only heat up a house slowly.
@@grahamstevenson1740 Zoned hydronic heating is great and works really well with Gas central heating - we've reduced our gas usage by 30% using Tado TRVs to zone each room. My understand is it doesn't suit heat pumps particularly, in part due to the lower circulating temperature though I'm no expert.
I've just installed recently in a kitchen for an elderly person and he was so happy about it. He sits standstill for a long period of time and enjoys this radiant heat. His chair and surroundings are warm and no cold discomfort.
I think this is the future.
It's extremely cost effective to install, to run, to control and replace. I recommend the ceiling mount version to spread the heat around the room effectively.
I don't know much about infrared heating or heat pumps......but I do know that a form of heating which doesn't require ugly pumps, pipes, boilers, controls and associated gubbins, not to mention ongoing servicing - seems very attractive!
Technologies like this show how inviting a HVAC contractor over to discuss heating needs will only involve solutions that they sell. Rarely is insulation suggested or other Technologies that don't make them $$$.
Clearly didn’t watch or listen. Ho hum. There’s always one.
I don't recall a single program i've watched regarding heat pumps that hasn't stressed the importance in fully insulating your home BEFORE even contemplating looking at having a heat pump installed.
Looked at this technology for a sunroom here in Minnesota USA. Decided in the end on a mini-split air source heat pump. I hope we don't get hung up on heat pumps vs. infrared. Focus on getting people off of burning stuff in their homes and give them options. Pick what works for you.
@@grahamstevenson1740 that depends where you are & how your government behaves.
In the UK the Blair/Brown Government put in thermal standards but made the regulations effective some time later so builders could work out how to do it, then the Cameron/Clegg Government took over & repealed the regulations before they came into effect. A few builders carried on with Labour's plans but very few.
The other issue is: Heat pumps can also do A/C
I don't see a problem with comparing things, you get the good and bad of each one in the end.
How's your mini-split driven? The problem is these things don't work well with off grid scenarios, you really have to go with fossil fuel to some degree at this point. I think you're saving some energy, I'm not sure these 400% COPs are realistic though, they are basically from highly controlled lab environments, certainly not in a Minn. winter. That's why in the article they only got ~175% efficiency, I'd say that's realistic real world. So now you put in a mini-split or whatever and the grid drives it, what's the grid sourced from? Coal? Gas?
Mini-splits are basically air conditioners run backwards. What happens in hot climates when everyone runs air conditioning? You get brownouts!
Heating is the big hurdle for renewables, especially autonomous systems, whether it's hot water or home heating. I can make tankless hot water work off grid but I can't do it so well with a HP water heater. I'm wondering if I can set up these IR heaters to work in my favor off grid like I did with my tankless.
@@xXYourShadowDaniXx how effective are heat pumps in the 6 months of horrible weather in UK tho? from what i understand they rely on it being at least slightly warm outside. its cold 6 months of the year here
@@kanedNunable I believe they work usually to -10 F, the average mean temp of the UK seems to be 30-50 F so I think it works fine there, if you lived at a higher latitude I'd be more concerned but it can be supplemented with a smaller infrared system so you get the best of both in that case imo
If renovating or restoring a listed building, this option makes the most sense for most buildings as it's the least invasive and disruptive.
Great informative video and feel Hershel did outline the true facts of the comparison on the home heating test they did. At the end of the day, everybody feels and perceives many things differently and how each of us feel heat or colder temps in any environment including a house has to be based on many things. The outside temp before you step into the house, what your wearing, how active the house is, how many occupants, fabric of the building, orientation, heating sources stoves, open fires, oil/gas boilers, insulation etc. In order to feel comfortable we each need to tweek our current heating systems in each of the rooms we use based on how long and time of day we use them. Our hot water needs are the same.
I have invested in Solar PV with battery storage three months ago here in the west of Ireland and still adjusting to how we use these renewable Kw's efficiently. So I will invest in one or more of these infrared heating radiators as the move away from oil and diesel for motoring has begun for us. The built in thermostat and timers are the way to go and let them work with how and when we use each room in our homes in tandem with whatever heating system each of us have. If lucky enough to be able to invest in solar pv, then each of our electricity costs will reduce. Takes a while to reach payback but that day will come. Let the tweeking begin!
So we've got air-sourced heat pumps coupled with solar and batteries in a heating climate. I've been considering switching space heaters in the office to IR panels, just so we can keep the air temp in the rest of the house lower.
It seems counter-intuitive, but heating less space with less efficient means, can save energy. Coincidentally, we've had an IR sauna for a few years, and it gets a chamber to 155 F on only about 1.5kw.
Thanks for the video guys!
To be truthful they are not that less efficient. They heat the room not the air and these give off the heat for a period of time. Also you need them on a thermostat or the room gets too warm, do you are not heating constantly. Hiding your comment about a sauna as my wife keeps suggesting one!
Also in chilly sunny mornings your electric is free with solar.
It is, we have even gotten to point where we use heated blankets in the winter so we can lower the overall temperature of the house and still be comfortable on the couch and bed. I would like one of these panels in the bathroom and have it kick on a bit before I wake up and before my evening shower.
They are lovely when you get out of the shower, like standing in sunshine.
That's the thing about IR and tankless water heaters. When I compare my tankless with a HP system I come out ahead. It sounds wrong but it's not. First, I can time my hot water and showers during the day when my PV is producing enough to cover the tankless. With a HP you can't do that, they recover over three hours mostly at night when the sun is down. Then there's the Standby heat losses and line losses running hotter water to fixtures. Then the thing no one talks about - bacteria. It grows even in 120F tanks, that's why institutions are mandated to have 140F water with even more standby and line losses.
I set my tankless to 105F, the temp I'm comfortable with then I turn my water to the hot side completely so there's no cold mixing losses. I'll bet we use less than most HP homes and because there's no water sitting in a tank there's no bacteria growing, every time I turn on the hot water it evacuates all the water in the tubes. It's half the price of a HP too without the complexity.
These seem like a good idea for anywhere that you sit in front of the heater for long periods (home office, living room, bedroom) as a targeted heat solution. Heatpumps seem far more efficient for general space heating and also provide cooling, so a combination of the two would be ideal.
This is what I've been thinking. Perhaps the optimal solution is to heat buildings to around 18ºc. And then make more use of localised heaters, and heated furniture. This might actually be more comfortable as well as more efficient.
I just got an infrared sauna and I have to say it warms you up nicely.
The Herschel man argues that infrared heating being better than a heat pump. That could be true in the UK where air conditioning is less needed. I'm located in Phoenix, AZ where air conditioning is essential during the summers, so I think the heat pump would soundly beat infrared here simply because the heat pump can do both.
I love these informative series.
I jut wish they would not be so fully UK-centric but I completely understand why they are.
I particularly like the explanation of how infrared heaters work and the use of the phrase 'thermal mass'. Great video. Very informative. Thank you. 😃
They are not Banning gas boilers, only Newbuilds just for Context, great video as always
Interesting video and product. Wasn't massively impressed with their extremely biased worst case scenario of a heat pump. I know of multiple installations which have been very effective in terms of heating and payback. Always makes me slightly suspicious when people feel it necessary to try and rubbish other technologies.
Indeed. My ASHP has achieved COP of 3 this winter. Sounds like the test installation was bad.
Comparison is asked for by everyone.
You need to know.
If what they say is unbelievable to you at least you have the strongest argument to think about.
They may be doing you a service.
Same, just over 3 this winter.
Agreed, however, I found the comments to be largely fair in that gas boiler will be heapest to run as well as heat pumps. The only better test will be to run dummy room through a simulated 12 month cycle inclusive of methods of heating hot water at typical usage rates as many people forget IR is only space heating
@@NetZeroHow excess solar electric energy can heat stored hot water.
Financial can be a big hidden factor.
Say for example a home build $/m2 , the mortgage payments will x2 or x3 the amount borrowed.
Now the last $ earned is taxed at the marginal rate and so extra income required x2 plus the costs of earning income.
All of this adds up. Say x4 to x6 initial install cost.
Running costs have to be added on top and maintenance costs.
People say a Tesla is so expensive you will never save enough for it to make sense.
The Rolls Royce car solution is never much of a personal transport economically.
The panels lower long term financial component maybe critical.
You could buy the panels as you need them.
So a big upfront cost and a longer work life?
We need the numbers to make sense
With EV cars plugged in to the grid and free solar energy heat pumps may not be needed.
We have Infrared heating on the celling of our living room. It is a rented apartment so we had not the option of a heat pump. Really nice. Biggest advantage: You can use the existing cabling for the lights. I split the lines to use the electricity both for heating and lights (LED). I split the line and use smart switches to turn lights and heating separately. They now do the base load of heating in our apartment.
Some Infrared panel sales guys tell you that you can not have LEDs in your IR panel. The reason they say this is that there are patents on at least the layout that I bought. I have 4 LEDs on a 900.W panel.
I don’t think they should claim that heat pumps can not be cost effective or paid by the savings. Many studies have shown that they can and do
We've got whole house infra red heating and it's fantastic, so much better than our old gas system. It's running off a mix of solar/batteries/grid and it's costing about the same as the gas used to.
That's my future dream home heating solution 👍
Good to see more about IR heating; didn't feel like a balanced comparison though between technologies. The link to the "independent" research isn't a link in the show notes - the caveats and missing details screamed of bias. I might be wrong!
I was thinking the same. Each technology will have an ideal use case and I guess they're just pushing their product but it still didn't seem a great comparison.
You're not.
I have an Infrared panel in our ensuite ceiling fitting which works very well. I would like to fit them throughout our house to replace our outdated storage heating. Upstairs (or for those living in bungalows) the wiring can be discreetly taken straight up through the ceiling to a socket in the loft space. Having some wiring into the loft will enable us to take the heater down sufficiently to clean & decorate.
My question is how can these panels be fitted in downstairs rooms, the installation manual shows a wall fitting & stresses that the wire should not travel behind the heater. I would prefer to fit the heaters to the ceiling downstairs and without the benefit of a loft can the plug/fused socket sit out of sight behind the heater? Can they be fitted to enable them to be taken down or at least be held in place so the wire is not stretched for decorating or is it a matter of care & masking tape? None of the advertising images show any wires so it must be possible to wire these safely onto ceilings with the wires behind. Information that I can pass to the electrician carrying out the wiring would be very helpful for me & I suspect many more who are interested in this form of heating. Thank you
IR ceilingmounted heating became popular in Sweden in 1970th. In the winter it got wery cold under the tables.
If I may ask, why are you under the table? 😊
When you sit at the table where are your legs Andrew?
To be truthful I have a terrible habit of putting my legs in the table, so I wouldn't have noticed. Also my panels are walk mounted so most likely heat under the table also.
@@andrewhartley3 leg slots in the table, there's fancy.
We moved into our mid-terrace 1950's house 20 years ago. It never had central heating fitted and when we moved it we were bookended by two little old ladies who kept us warm with their heating! We've survived for 20 years on a gas fire in the living room and a balanced flue gas heater on the upstairs landing and on those rare Winters when it gets *really* cold we've had a couple of small fan heaters.
Now looking at weaning ourselves off of gas as our tariff ended and it's gone up 249% as well as the fact we get cheap overnight electricity. Was definitely interested in IR panels, especially ceiling mounted. Our house is on three stories and regular heating options tend to end up heating the very well insulated loft rooms to the point where they open the windows because it's too hot. IR looks like a good localised option, and it also suits my fresh air loving Wife by not heating the air directly.
I have ha infra red panels for 7 years, love them
Really like this idea. Hope it works well I’m looking forward to seeing some real world reviews with factual running costs.
I just discovered you all
Great informative channel
I will now follow you and look back at your old shows
I think we first saw kryton on episode 3 of Red Dwarf.
This sound too good to be true, but it is true. I installed 2 panels last autumn and used no gas for heating last winter. The house was much more comfortable has the heat remains most in the rooms with the panels. The control over how central heating works is so much better. The only downside for most people is that you need a well insulated home first but that's the same with any heating system. You not get the benefits with infrared if there are drafts as the air never gets warms. In summary, if you insulate and draft proof, they work very well.
But do not close off your ventilation!
I find IR heating only good if you can 'waste time' propped up in front of a radiator - however if you are moving about, doing things, far less useful, as you have to periodically stop to get a 'heat recharge' from a radiator.
They tend to be very poor at heating a building, so as soon as you move on, you soon feel the real cold of the environments air.
Looks like a great product, I definitely will be investigating this option for heating 😀
Agree with all you've said, behaviour change is the issue this video helps people understand, I do recommend IR when practical. Great video thanks for setting it up...
Interesting video, and glad the wattage/COP/efficiency was talked about as I felt it was something missing in the home series, which felt a bit like an advert, to be honest. This not as much, but with these, and other heating things you have done, I s there a chance of something approaching a review, good and bad, etc. I realize reviewing heating (or cooling) gear is difficult, as you can't normally install a heating system for a few weeks and the rip it out again but having good, infirmed channels we can trust talking about the good and bad of heat pumps (different brands/types), infra-red, solar thermal, that huge stone thing I remember from the home program, is good.
Also (I'm in the USA so not sure) for air-water heat pump do you really need to oversize the radiators? (I note there was no push back on the heat pump bashing, but suspect you disagree a bit with some of what he said)
ALSO, Are hybrid water heaters like Rheem make in the USA a thing in the UK?
And how about having Ricky Roy do some US based home heating content. You have a big US following but what we call a heat pump and what you do are very different things.
Heat pumps also work for cooling the house.... But you can definitely combine this into hard to ducted areas
This sounds like a good solution for us as we can heat rooms as required and I don’t have a noisy fan unit in the garden
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
I have these panels in my one bedroom flat. They're excellent, I've ceiling mounted them, which saves space too.
Can I plug them into a solar battery? As plugging it in to my electric socket isnt really renewable for me, I'm looking at self suffiency using the sun! I bought a jackery battery and its working perfectly, so if I could plug in an infra red panel.
Well, I didn't expect such a greenwashing effort from Robert... There's no way you can put heat-pumps and infrared heating in the same ballpark: Heat-pumps are at least 4 times as efficient. That's a numbers fact. But I guess a Man has to do, what a Man has to do...
A few more comments on the video:
1. Infrared heating also requires extra infrastructure in a home, since the electrical circuits are not suit for the constant power requirements of an infrared heating solution. It's not as simple as installing the panels, you also need to route new wires to them, which usually means wall and floor/ceiling digging.
2. The low-efficiency (1.8x) heat-pump in their test was obviously a high-temperature heat-pump; they indeed have lower efficiency.
3. Best heat-pump heating application is through floor heating. You'll use a low-temp heat-pump system for a floor heating installation.
4. Heat-pumps are not as expensive as stated in this video.
5. IR heating has to run in real-time; you can't "store" heat, as in a heat-pump installation. That said, you won't be able to utilize smart grids' variable rates, which is already available in the UK and is coming worldwide, just as the energy economy moves over to 100% renewables.
There is high temperature heat pumps?😮 That's kinda cool maybe i can make a sauna with it? 🤔
@@nebulous962 high temperature heat pumps can be used as a direct retro-fit for petrol or gas boiler radiator systems. They actually incorporate two (or more) heat pumps in series, hence the lower efficiency.
@@ThanosSustainable makes sense.🙂
Bad take, heat pumps have a place for sure but the UK housing stock is very drafty and badly insulated on average. These drafts actually help with damp issues so when people get cavity wall insulation they often get mould issues. Hopefully heat pump technology will continue to improve to the point where it makes sense for the UK housing stock until then its going to be another mis-selling scandal.
@@2k10clarky what do improvements in heat-pump technology has to do with poor insulation of UK housing stock? Afaik, when you start thinking about upgrading to a heat-pump system, you've already taken care of the insulation and multi-glazed windows.
I lived for several years in Oregon, USA in a place with electric radiant ceiling heat and it was the most uncomfortable heat I've ever experienced. Because the warmth was above and because warm air rises, our heads were too warn while our feet and legs were cold. I would imagine that wall mounting would work much better, especially where they could be mounted low on the wall. When I was building a home in Oregon, I had tubing running throughout the floor where warm water would heat from the bottom which I read was the most comfortable and cost-effective, at least at the time. Alas, divorce ended the project so I never got to experience it.
That’s what I’m thinking. Bald head surely his head is burning if they were mounted on ceiling 😂
Good question. This form of radiant heat is longer wave and less intense so you won’t notice your head being warmer.
Awful experience indeed. You can also feel the radiation and it is very unpleasant, like pierces. And if you are out of the beam, you are frozen. Wall mounting is not good either.
This is not your old school ir heater mate, I think it's similar to RedSnake from Poland which uses Korean graphite foils... Planning to do one room to test , if ok then entire House
I have heat pump hydronic floor heating in my house. Absolutely the most comfortable heating I've ever had. Also much more (4x) efficient than electric infrared or resistance heating.
The air temperature in our living room is set around 17 degrees (modern condensing boiler + radiators) but because of our carefully placed IR panel (not from Herschell) it feels a lot warmer. One of the major benefits is the speed at which they start operating effectively. We only switch the panel on when we're actually in the room
Our gas usage has reduced by 30%
I have had a Herschel IR heater panel in my bathroom for a couple of years and it's exactly like the feeling of sunshine and the heat travels.
The controller and software could be better but in general I'm impressed.
Our house is form 1835. We have insulated our house, installed solar panels (2018), have EV and are decarbonizing our house (induction cook top 2021, air source heat pump clothes dryer 2023). Last items to go are our gas boiler and on demand gas water heater. We placed a panel in our downstairs bathroom (2022) and love it. My elderly parents love the bathroom now that it is cozy for them when they stay. Of note we are in the CT, USA. We had to work a bit to get the correct system for our US electric.
Fascinating Bobby. I never knew this tech existed. Sign me up.
I disagree. IR is light and if you step outside the light, you won't get any warmth.
A heat pump is an air conditioner with efficiencies no one can touch. We are talking about 300% to 500% efficiency.
It can not only heat, but cool air as well.
IR panels are great to get instant heat, and being solid-state, they can last the longest.
Exactly, infrared heating is basically just electric heating. Near 100% efficient, while heat pumps multiply your power input, because they do not generate it, they move it.
This video has a garbage clickbait title. Unless they suggest we keep our houses at 15c and only heat where we are sitting, which sounds pretty miserable.
300% max under ideal temperature conditions
You cannot step outside the light. All matter emits heat. In the system they are heating the mass rather than heating the air directly
Heat Pump installation cost a fortune without the Gov. Grant. And need maintenance.
Checked out the website, it all looks very slick. Like many companies, they make a marketing mistake. They tell you what they want to say not what the customer wants to hear. Our underfloor electric heating has gone kaput. The element has gone open circuit, we dont want to rip up all the floor tiles to replace it. So lets start.
We found a lot of confusion in the control of the ceiling panels. Whats up there? Is the Alexa up there along with the WiFi control? Could you run the panel without a separate controller?
What happens if you lose your WiFi (we were without Internet recently for three days, - no TV, no phones, no heat?). Is there an override to turn the heat on?
But I like the thermostat/controller, its what we are used too. No dimensions given. How big is it? What size and depth of back-box is required? If I choose the battery version, how long can I expect the battery to last, is it rechargeable, does it use standard AAA batteries?
These ceiling panels weigh quite a bit. Can one man put them up? What electrical connection is recommended, - a local fused isolator? - behind the panel?
We shall probably buy these. They look good and expect the price over that of the competition to reflect the better quality.
I supplement my home heating with IR panels in occupied areas. Doing this allows me to keep the house heating at a lower temperature with improved comfort and lower total power usage. IR heaters can be difficult for some people to grasp intuitively. Trust me that feeling the warm radiance of an IR heater is a far more comfortable sensation than the hot dry output of the forced air heaters we use here in the US.
There is nothing difficult to grasp. The question is calling this a route to net zero. I doubt there's any change in energy consumption with radiant heating and hopefully people are not throwing everything outside.
That is the way these should be used honestly.
Especially in the evening when people sit on the sofa watching a movie for a few hours or when working in the office during the day 1 of these can replace the normal central heating system in the house while providing more comfort then running central heating.
Using these as the only jeating system for an entire property seems counter intuative.
Does it instantly feel cold the moment you switch it off ? Does this mean you have to have them on more or less all the time ? With gas or HP the house holds heat for hours at night when heating is off.
As far as I am concerned, you can't get anything more visually appealing and warming than a wood burning stove. I love mine and would recommend one to anybody. They are great ! If you have a source of free wood like me, it is a no brainer, free heat, lovely.
I'm in central Ontario where it can get to -30 C and often -20 C. Would it be reasonable to expect infrared panels to be a main source of heating in a reasonably air tight house (900 sq ft)?
Well well well... Nice to see an attempt at a direct comparison between heat pumps and IR. We have had Jigsaw IR installed for the last 12 months and can attest to the comfort and space saving. It is true that IR costs more to operate, however, the more home insulation the less energy you use therefore heating efficiency means far less. Quite simply if you need to use a lot of electricity to heat your home then you should invest in the most efficient system you can afford to keep operational costs low. Imagine a passive solar passivhaus with practially no heating requirements, what need is there for a 300% efficient system over 100%?
IR wins hands down in many cases due to initial capital outlay and minimal disruption. IR also does particularly well in vaulted rooms as convection heating raises hot air above the occupied living spaces. Also worthy of note is that with IR you will need a system to also heat hot water e.g. a hot water cylinder (Mixergy recommended). Alternatively, and counter intuitively, there are cylinders with in built heat pumps on the market which do a good job and with the added benefit of cooling the room they are in to create cold stores for food/drinks.
The world of eco home renovation is confusing but an understanding of building science will help you make the right decision for your home. My suggestion is that you take the time to learn about your home and the options available else you have to go on trust, in which case... chose a reputable contractor. Good luck my friends.
Everyone seems to be missing the obvious: If you ask a good engineer, a real one, chartered variety, you will get good impartial advice on heating systems. The same is true of architects with the right kind of experience, except they will give advice on insulation, mass, windows and the like. It's not very expensive to do this and it can save years of procrasination and researching down rabbit holes. It can also save very expensive cockups. Installers, suppliers and contractors are usually the wrong people to ask because they tend to go for the most profitable option. Even users/owners often tell porkies about their own systems to make their own choices look better or spare their own blushes. It's quite easy to build housing without any conventional heating system anywhere in the British isles except Northern Scotland, with the right advice.
So if we get rid of wet heating & use this infra red dry heat, how is water heated for taps & showers etc ?
Ive already got an air source heat pump, had it 7 yrs now, works great. Why go backwards? I had to change 4 out of 14 radiators and still running all radiators with 10mm microbore.
Where can we find the details of that test, so we can put it under some scrutiny. Air source or ground source heat pump?
UK based viewer here had all the insulation in my house upgraded for free as a govt scheme. Including underfloor insulation and interior insulation in upstairs rooms by Green Home Systems.
Swapped out my old storage heaters 9.3 Kw for new infrared panels 2.6 Kw and reduced my heating bills by half. All rooms now linked to app on phone all rooms can have different times/temperatures. Unlike storage if it's a warm day all heating cuts off and if a room is not used can turn down its settings.
No rewiring needed at all, dont mind the scaremongers. Didn't use Herschel but seriously considered it used Warm4Less as they had some great deals on and would recommend to anyone.
It is true heat pumps are not great for retrofitting we'd have had to tear up all the floors/skirting get oversized radiators etc. Just not practical. With the IR panels you can do it one room at a time and spread the cost nicely. Any local sparky or good DIY'er can install/fit these things.
Next step get solar on the roof and job done.
Problem is people have wildly different expectations and ideas of what "comfortable" is. In your scenario we don't know if you wouldn't of saved even more money if you kept the storage heaters alongside the improved insulation.
@@edc1569 Yes I do and no I wouldn't there was a gap between the two dates wise. Storage heaters need constant attention turning them up and down etc. The simple fact the house is now thermostatically controlled is huge. We have a large picture window in front room that acts like a greenhouse, in the morning it was always too cold and in the afternoon too hot on sunny days. Now I know the house will be a steady 20 degrees or more during the daytime and at night it will drop to 13 degrees and I won't be heating a house that doesn't need it. Storage heaters are massively inefficient and fiddly if you have a house with storage heaters change them end of story. The only other house I had with them was draughty and that just kills them as well. Don't understand the hate for IR panels at all.
@@eldridgep2 Horses for courses. You benefitted from the insulation and obviously got a good enough job done that freed you from having a big bill no matter what you installed. I think the "hate" is really more about the hard sell in the video than the radiant panels themselves because the panels have uses but the comparison and "tests" were skewed. You ended up with a system that you like, at a good price and with small bills so you're a good example of how to do it right.
@@mikekelly5869 Agreed on the paid advert not good enough.
Thank you, another informed and useful contribution. It's fascinating how the debate changes over the years, e.g. your storage heaters were a huge thing in the 1970s/80s, but now hardly anyone uses them. Perhaps it'll be the same for ASHPs as home insulation improves.
Let’s have some discussion on how houses built in the 1860s or there abouts can be insulated safely and cost effectively.
I think the "Home" series Fully Charged did covered a bit of that.
It’s just direct electric heating. At 30p/kWh it’s a very expensive form of heating. Heat pumps are at least 3 times more efficient. These might have a use for rooms not linked to central heating but not for an alternative to gas central heating.
Are these the same a ‘heat panels’? As marketed in NZ?
1 K/Wh of heat = 1K/Wh of heat. No matter how fancy your heater is, you can never beat the laws of thermodynamics!
Yes, that is correct but it's what you do with the 1kWh. Using it to heat a volume of air which rises to the ceiling (and heats the celling) is different to using that 1kW as direct transfer of that heat energy. This has a very different impact on perception of comfort. Air temperature is only one factor in our sense of comfort - the mean radiant temperature of the room itself has a major impact. As a result we can feel as comfortable with radiant heat at lower air temperatures.
Good balance in report although with rocketing electricity prices very remiss ot to cover ru ning costs. Cheap to install and maintain that's why they are fast oured by landlords but very expensive to run as your using peak electricity tariff.
We have a 1200w panel mounted on the ceilings in each the bedrooms in our house and we have double glazed the windows, We have been fairly happy with the performance of them for the last several years The only proviso I would have is that they’re good for keeping the room warm so long as the outside temperature is not too low. Generally we will heat our room with reverse cycle first thing in the morning and once the outside temperature reaches 4°C then switch over to the Infrared panel heaters which are controlled by a thermostat so it will cycle on an off to keep the room at a constant 19°C, which is quite comfortable. The difference that we notice is that compare to reverse cycle. The heat is nice and even throughout the room. It’s quite different to a reverse cycle where the heat is always blowing from the direction of the heater whenever with the infrared, it’s very even throughout the whole room, irrespective of where you’re sitting.
Seems like a really cool idea and to think, I've never heard of this.
Great video. Great info about CoP figures. As a SAP assessor I have been telling clients about this kind of technology, and I will now share this video with them as it explains it so well. Love the ability to have white panels, mirrors and even pictures.
This is brilliant. How much and when can I get them? The future has an abundance of electricity so may this system be rolled out as quickly as possible.
A great video, and this has come at the right time for us because we have been looking at IR heating. The issue we have here is there are no Herschel showrooms here in New Zealand so we can't physically see the panels and feel the heat. We were also told by Herschel that we need to leave the heating on all of the time at a minimum of 16'c even in rooms we don't regularly use because it isn't instant heat and takes a long time to heat the room. The panels plus install cost are much higher than a ducted heatpump system. So I'm still not convinced :-(
If you size your panels it shouldn't take a long time to heat the room. Also your panels do not need to be on all the time when on a thermostat.
Buy a panel put in one room and try.
Hi Paul, unless you have a showroom to go to then it will be a leap of faith. If you want to ask me specific questions about my experience with IR panels to build that confidence then please do. However, I will say that IR is not the optimum solution for everyone, but it is a good one. IR is also relatively cheap to try, easy to remove and sell on for residual value and ultimately easily recyclable at end of life which we should consider with every purchase we make. Good luck making the decision, either way you will be making the right choice to go electric :)
There are 3 situations that maximize the comfort benefits of a radiant system...
First, if your house is poorly-insulated and drafty. In a tight well-insulated home, an air heating system heats the air which in turn heats the surfaces it contacts, while a radiant system heats the surfaces first which then heat the passing air. As long as your home's heat loss is reasonably low, the air temperature and surface temperatures will be more or less equal. But if your home loses heat quickly, the surfaces of the exterior walls will be cooler than the air in the room. That leaves people feeling uncomfortable, so they end up cranking up the thermostat. In that case, you could also consider air sealing and additional insulation, or upgrading the windows or adding storm windows. Better insulated walls and better windows will have higher surface temperatures, giving a lot of the comfort benefits of a radiant system.
The second situation is if you have a room with a large window. In cold weather, the window will be quite a bit cooler than the insulated walls, even if it is triple pane. You could feel chilled on the side facing the glass while simultaneously being too warm on your other side. The closer you sit to the window, the worse the effect. Radiant panels installed around the window can offset the body heat being lost through the glass. If you don't have a great view, any window covering also helps a lot, as the surface temperature of a curtain will be a lot higher than that of the glass behind it.
And the third situation is kind of obvious, but in a bathroom where you are naked and wet, you probably won't be comfortable with an air temperature that is fine otherwise.
I'm in the same boat as you, living in Christchurch. I've been toying with the idea to try one in the lounge first as Andrew's comment suggested. I've just seen that radiant heaters are very cheap to buy in the shops. I know it's a different technology, but it would give a sense of how infrared might feel.
Can't find any link to the "university comparison" mentioned, neither here nor on Herschel's website. Like to check the details...
I've got a dry system heat source air pump with vents in the ceiling. Because you can't heat individual rooms it's really inefficient and takes an age to get the house up to anywhere near the temperature. About 5 months ago I had seven Herschel panels fitted with 3 mains thermostats and one battery one for the en suite. Without a doubt the heat and efficiency were spot on, so much so we turned off the air pump and are now looking to get it dismantled and removed from the property. However, I have had nothing but grief from the Herschel system. Two panels that were damaged had to be replaced and so far I've had two of the three mains thermostats replaced. I thought I'd finally cracked it the other week after a visit from the Herschel tech guy, however now one of the panels won't switch off when on the schedule and one of the thermostats decided to go back to factory settings and was kicking out heat for two hours when it should have been off.
Heat pumps are most efficient when you’re not trying to heat/cool a building to the desired temp but maintain it at the set temperature.
i switched to electric heating 5 years ago(infrared-panel and floor) and am realy happy and comfortable with it. i live in a small flat and the money i saved without the yearly gasboiler-inspections pretty much made up the difference in yearly running-cost. im not making back the 2500€ investment for the change, but im completely co2 free baby! ;) (i dont have a car, i ride my bike everywhere in my city)
You must be Norway to have truly co2 free electricity.
@@edc1569 it doesnt matter what your national grid mix is, it matters where your money goes. i only by hydro-power into the grid. i can not control what other people buy.
a really great sales pitch. gonna get a small one to test it out in one room with CH switched off at night
Most of the comments relate to the relative performance of different systems and everyone seems to have their own preference. From my own experiences: We recently fitted an underfloor heating system in a church using ASHP. Advantages are that there is a large thermal mass (concrete floor) to radiate the heat smoothly and the running costs are reduced (notwithstanding we haven't had to have the ASHP serviced yet. Disadvantages: It has to have a gas boiler to supplement AS, installation costs were (very) high, it's a complex system, and in a very busy building (we run a foodbank, community cafe, play area and shop) people leave the door open, oh and the ASHP can't run after certain hours due to noise affecting adjacent residential properties. I considered a conversion at home on a 1910 building which is brick built ant therefore good mass but small cavities that are not designed for insulation can result in problems... costs were prohibitive too. The suggestion here is that the radiant heat warms obstacles (objects, walls, people) which therefore seems like a viable alternative and fewer moving parts feels like the right direction to go in alongside progress with low/zero carbon generation.
One challenge, to the presentation excluding the gas boiler from the test might be a mistake if hydrogen becomes a viable alternative over the same gas network.
Thanks
What a good idea. The panels are probably very reliable too with zero moving parts. I'll explore further. Thanks all.
It would be interesting to know how the heat pump was set up. Most installs I know of have a scop of 4 and above.
Off the back of this video plus some other research, I've just ordered some Herschel IR panels as we're doing up some rooms in the house (including adding more insulation), so it seems a good opportunity to do so.
How did they work out?
Interesting details.IR heating is also instant , so you don't have wait to warm the air up to feel the benefit. Did you test a split system air conditioning system ( air to air ) ? Split systems are very efficient as they don't have to pump hot water through radiators around a house which consumes a lot of energy. It's just an outdoor unit and a wall mounted fan. (Daikin have wall mounted that look more like a radiator to pump out warm air at floor level). The modern split systems work efficiently well below freezing too. The additional benefit is they can cool on a hot day.
PS I have a whole house ducted air to air heat pump. Maintenance cost over 15 years is zero. Except a little time to clean the air intake filters and replace them every few years.
As this heats everything in the house, does anyone know if infrared heating affects books in any way? I’ve noticed that sometimes reading in the sun can warp pages a little, especially graphic novels.
I recently saw the MedCram UA-cam channel talking about near infrared and how healthy it is for you so this is pretty good to see a product that gives back the part of the spectrum that we lose by working indoors. Though I wouldn't want to use it at night as you can have too much of a good thing, the NIR stimulates melatonin and needs to stop production by about 9pm. I'd use a dual heating system for the best of both worlds. Hopefully there'll be lots of uptake for this product and costs will come down too.
Hi Jon, Our indoor heating panels are far infrared (not Near IR). So no impact on melatonin.
I was wondering the same thing re this as an infrared source!
Enjoyed the side-by-side comparison Herschel ran but would liked to have seen a graph or two. One big advantage air source heat pumps have over infrared heaters is they are air conditioners as well as heaters, which is critical for most people in the world. I'd like to get a couple of Herschel heaters and try them out, along with my heat pump system.
Nope, there is no air conditioning possible with most of the air to water heat pumps, or that are allowed to be subsidized, in the UK... But they produces hot water instead, which most air to air heat pumps do not.... So I'm kinda jealous...
FWIW, I use IR for spot heating with an air to air heat pump.... But the Herschel IR heaters would have been far too costly...
@@nc3826 you also have the capital cost of adding in specialised cooling circuits and units for non under floor rooms to manage the condensation. Taking subsidy out of it (I can't see how the £5k grant can block running an ASHP in cooling mode), it does make them a good dual use tech though.
@@EdBonds You're just repeating, what I stated... What was your point?
@@EdBonds I stated what was relevant in my reply. Such as AC (ie cooling) is not (normally) possible and it is not subsidized. Which resulted in the same conclusions.
You just regurgitated it back with more irrelevant trivia. So thx for confirming your point.
I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees. My pedantic, friend.
Exactly as they say. Insulate/draught proof first; then plug in an infrared heater (you only need the electrician if you want to hide plugs/cables) and off you go. Heat pumps might be a good solution for new build detached houses; I live in a 19th 2nd floor flat. Infrared has been great. Point it at my sofa and I feel warm, fast.
Why not insulate and keep your gas boiler then.
Aren't gas boilers more expensive? Also relying 100% on a fossil fuel.
Interesting video. IR is not new but attractive IR heaters is - and they are. I have an air to water underfloor heat pump solution. Not needed a service after 16/17 years and still just as efficient in Norway! But when there is a lot of fluctuation in temperature this is hard to balance with slow acting underfloor heating and I see IR heaters as an extra solution - although that is a lot more money. I did do the maths and underfloor with heat pump is still considerably cheaper. But in bedrooms a boost with IR and skip the underfloor is another way of looking at it. And if you have solar panels / batteries it would be a no brainer for retrofit.
What I like with Fully Charged is you get to see options. When I built 20 years ago there were very few options one could find - luckily in Norway underfloor heating with heat pumps was normal then already.
Great Video thanks a log
I've spent some time around body shops which often use IR heaters to cure body work, I never thought of using IR for home heating. I can see how it would be a nice feeling heat in a home environment, but they can also get objects quite warm if close by. Missing from this video was rough panel cost, power requirements, and maintenance cost (changing bulbs, etc). Where can I find more info on this? Also are these sold in the states?
I'm building a solar system with battery storage and already have mini-split systems (which would be tough to compete with I would imagine), but I might be interested in installing a panel or two as well if they don't require too much power.
Please check our USA website www.herschel-infrared.com for details of our range.
I have an air source heat pump in my flat, it heats the whole flat and uses about 500W, its very cheap - 500W to heat my 2 bed flat. I'm going to get a panel heater next winter for the lounge as that is the area that gets less warm air.
I love idea becasue my house is so cold but I've used a different manufacturer infrared panel & it was pointless after 5 hours the room did not even move 1°c, the heat from the panel within 3 meters was warm but beyond 3 m you did not feel any warmth & the oppositewall or sofa temp did not change at all from the infrared?. Maybe different companies make them different but the one I tried at £170 was useless.
Yes had an office heated by IR panels and same experience. Ended up with a fan heater.
Expert opinion requested. Would the best option be to start heating with the IR panels for all their advantages, then switch to a heat pump for their efficiancy?
Have both.
We have 5 panels in 4 rooms, two in the living room, one on the landing, bathroom and toilet. I run the living room ones at 19C which is more than warm enough for us. The bathroom is set to 20C as we like that a bit warmer.
What are the ‘mechanics’ of running them.
Do they, or can you have thermostats in each room one is fitted or timers ?
Hi Pau, We have a range of control options but essentially each panel is controlled by thermostats on a room by room basis. Also have APP control. Please see our website www.herschel-infrared.co.uk
In a 7m x 4m room does the IR heater need to be within 1m of the sitting location to get that extra comfort feeling. Or can it be 5m away and not pointing directly at you.
If you want to feel the direct radiant heat you need to be within 2-3m of the panel, otherwise it will still heat the room but you won't directly feel it.
Good to know. Thanks
The thing to remember with radiant heat is that a point source would have the energy drop with the inverse square of the distance also known as spherical divergence. However an infinite two dimensional plane source would give you constant energy density regardless of the distance from the source plane so the intent is to mimic an infinite two dimensional plane source. Now we see this with office fluorescent lights to provide "shadowless" light so that's what you're trying to do and wall mounts accounts for the two dimensional plane ending at the walls when the ideal is for it to be infinite
Please do one of your expertly informative videos on Exergyn’s shape memory alloy heat pump technology.
Efficiency of those is not very green. It is like a simple electrical radiant heater. But an interesting and nice looking additional option to heat up certain places in the house. If the heating system tracked your movement around the house, it could focus the infrared heat on your body and only one or two panels would be active simultaneously. House would be cold but maybe it would feel comfortable. Time to quickly patent it ;)
The infra red heating system sounds good, but what about heating hot water too? as a heatpump can do water too, will i need a separate unit to heat the water is that also added to the working out? Im asking because i want a good system. Also the Heatgeek channel claims they can get upto 4 or 5 times more effecient, it sounds like they installed that heatpump oversized and did not install it properly.
I am leaning toward Heatpump currently but I would love to be convinced that this is the right way.
Do the panels just warm items directly in front of them, as light travels in straight lines?
The heat from the panels is non directional - think of how a LED light panel would illuminate a room. So the panels will heat the entire room (if correctly specified / located).
Hershel are not the only ones making IR heating panels. They just seem to be way more costly than the many other brands...
Very good adfotainment.
This is amazing
What's the solution for those who have a combi and no room for separate hit water cylinder?
I put a big hershel mirror in my fully tiled bathroom (tiled over 30mm wedi board) and it works a charm.
This is much better than just for edge cases. I have these in 3 bedrooms and they work really well. I have a 1930's Semi, and can program the radiators to come on during cheap electric times, or by temperature using Alexa or the smart life phone app. The Easy DIY versions just need power and basic DIY skills. No electrician required, and no maintenance.
I've been looking at these as our house doesn't have central heating already and the cost/disruption of installing an air source heat pump is just not justifiable. I like the granularity of control, the fast response times and the relatively low energy consumption. Our house is currently heated by a gas fire and a gas wall heater, which burn 9.9kW of gas to give out only 6.1kW of heat. With the price of gas now similar to my overnight electricity tariff and the fact we have 3.6kW of solar as well the benefits of these IR panel heaters is clear. I'm sitting here on a chilly sunny morning and our solar is kicking out 2.5kW some of which could be diverted to heating the house.
Anyone know if this would suit a garden office? Very well insulated / sealed. But timber frame not block work.
Yes we heat a lot of garden offices with excellent feedback.
I’m really intrigued and impressed by these infra-red heaters. One question. Is it not the case that such systems will really lend themselves to automatic room-by-room control - ie a sensor that keeps the system on when people are in and turns it off when they leave? I would guess that would give the economic edge over alternatives.
Yes and no. If you've just got one in a room that's not used much, but when it's used it's used for a while, yes. If you've done your whole house the idea is probably that you'd use room based climate control but just keep the temperature steady at 18c. They bring the room up to temp then tick on and off regularly for a few days for long periods until, in theory, the thermal mass of the whole house has hit the point where they only kick in once or twice a day to top that mass back up.
In theory. It's very hard to find non-sales reviews of that kind of install, and they rarely talk about the electricity usage over time or max draw and things like that.
Also, as far as I can tell noone makes panels that actually modulate in any way - they're on full power till the temp is reached, or they're not on.
Can't help feeling things would get a lot more efficient and home-battery friendly if they could maintain temperatures at a lower draw once the temperature curve shows things have warmed up fully.
excellent
Is this a product the could be used in a 5th wheel camper? What type of power connection does it require?