What I loved most about meeting Simon at St Michael's is that he didn't push for a cleaner solution because it's his job and he's paid to do so, but because he truly cares and can see the value as well as the power and the responsibility that a large organisation such as the Church of England has to delivering net zero. I doth my cap to the Simon's of this world.
Nice video, but you really always need to emphasise in these videos that heat pumps will always be over 3x more efficient than literally any other source of heating. While you might be heating a smaller space with infra red, it really doesn't matter that you're heating a larger space if the heat is a third of the cost with a heat pump. Lots of examples of churches with heat pumps.
Heat pumps are wonderful technology, but heating tons of uninsulated stone to any more than few degrees above outside temperature is a ridiculous amount of energy. Even if electricity wasn't overpriced, a heat pump would still have the same issue as a traditional gas or oil boiler or forced air system. The vast majority of the heat sits up in the rafters or is sucked into the stone. Having been in an uncomfortably hot loft above a cold main floor in giant space on more than one occasion, the radiant heating intuitively makes so much sense. Not every solution fits every application.
If the UK is going to push for greater ASHP rollout, it may be worth considering amending MCS regulations to only require the heat-pump to provide up to, say, 90-95% of the maximum potential heating load. A dedicated half-price socket that an infrared heater is plugged into in the main living space could provide the added 5-10% in event of another Beast from the East, or something along these lines.
This is a really good application for infrared heating. It's not right everywhere, but for a large, poorly-insulated, intermittently-occupied public space it's hard to imagine a better alternative.
@@1voluntaryist Heat pumps are better in most cases due to COPs of 3 or more (3kW heat out for every kW electricity in), giving much lower running costs than any form of direct electric heating (whether it be old fashioned resistance heaters or fancy IR). However they have lower peak output, so where you need an occasional sudden rush of heat (like in a church for a service) they may be competitive due to lower installation cost. Ideally probably is a hybrid solution where you have a small heat pump running steadily to keep the frost & damp away and heat the place comfortably in mild weather, with IR for a sudden boost in the depths of winter.
Brilliant! I love the name of the product considering that it came about thinking how to help out churches, but even more importantly it is locally sourced, made and used. I can see churches that are hundreds of years old being kitted out with these things. Huge industrial spaces, old listed building and others need to take note of this tech! Great story guys, keep them coming!
This is what is needed, straight forward, positive information about how energy efficient solutions can work, save money and look great! Thanks for highlighting this.
@@Mike__BThey are spending less on electric heating using this method than they were on gas heating previously. Given that electricity per kWh is so much more expensive than gas, this indicates that they are being vastly more energy efficient than they were. On the low carbon front, each kWh of UK electricity produces 82g of Carbon, whereas each kWh of gas produces 185g. So far fewer kWh, and far fewer carbon grams per kWh. Very much more efficient on all fronts.
@@simhedgesrex7097 It most probably is because they are using focused heat, so they don't have to heat the whole church just the seats (as they showed in the video), so I'll give them that but it's not really and apples to apples comparison on efficiency. Now on the efficiency front it could be they were using really old gravity heaters that maybe 20-30% efficient, then combined with the lack of directional heating yeah I can see why they were paying much more. Does the UK get a majority of it's power from renewable (non-burning) resources? Because I'm not so sure I buy that carbon argument, here in the US water heating devices whether a furnace or a water heater has a minimum efficiency rating of 80%, a natural gas power plant at most is half that efficiency, so there's no way gas would put out over twice the amount of carbon unless your local government is playing a number manipulation game and factoring in a bunch of inefficient devices.
@@Mike__B "Does the UK get a majority of it's power from renewable (non-burning) resources?" - yes. Over the past year, 33% of our electricity came from fossil fuels, and 5.5% from Biomass. The rest of electricity generated in the UK came from Wind, Solar, Hydro and Nuclear.
As they teach at school, heat is transferred by conduction, convection and radiation. Then you realise it's not that simple when there's dampness/humidity, and ventilation and frost protection needed. There's also building control and listed building requirements. Looks like they done a great job, but don't know if it's a cookie cutter solution, need someone who understands each building and setting?
The old (very draughty) stone-built churches in the Scottish Highlands and Islands tended to use traditional overhead radiant heaters that were switched on shortly before the service, and probably still do. Fascinating video!
I wish I'd seen this a year ago. Our church is on the brink of a renovation and we are putting in a mix of infrared heaters and a heat pump. As well as insulation etc. Our old gas heating needed to be on a full 24 hours at least before a service and you'd still keep your coat on in the winter. This looks like a great solution for churches and fits the aesthetic very well. Hopefully the cost savings work out for us too!
A TCO breakdown, complete with breakeven analysis, would be quite helpful. Like most new technology, the Herschel Halo heaters are certain to be more expensive to acquire. However, it's the total cost of ownership that matters the most to organizations.
Then there's the option of having plain square panels fixed to the walls. Or fly them if preferred. And it's possible to have images on the panels so could always hide them in plain sight. A few religious icons might be acceptable when applying for the church faculty. Send a few examples to the Bishop to choose, which might, possibly, only possibly mind you, stop the nay sayers carping away, as is not unknown. Might be an idea to have the panels coordinate with the hue of the interior stone work. The heat "shines" down from above as if a benison from the Almighty himself sitting in his Heaven. There again some Vicars are perfectly at home with tech such as radio mics bx from flown column speakers or even LED luminaires using full DMX. Anything, almost, to get posteriors on pews and knees on hassocks.
Best bit was when Simon said cost per service had come down from £75 to £15/service. Now we need to know the upfront and lifetime cost of the equipment . People need to know that as well if they are to take things up. The tech is perfect for big rooms and I have one at home. Its great.
IR heating can be great for short occupancy or extremely voluminous locations as shown here but it's far from ideal for homes. Firstly it has to be on continuously for you to feel warm, more importantly, by not heating the fabric of the building, there's a high risk of condensation and mould growth on surfaces in occupied rooms without increased ventilation. It's far from a panacea in homes.
Herschel Infrared is the company's name. These chandelier heaters cost between $5650 - $8950 each. It looks like this church bought the most expensive units, so it cost them $35,800.
@@updlate4756 Yus... but it would likely have cost a lot to buy and install any other heating system for a building that large.... not to mention the operational costs. Whilst these heaters may have been expensive to buy, the installation costs would have been far less (especially if they already had chandeliers or similar for lighting), as well as their lower operational cost (given they're no longer trying to heat the entirety of the interior, etc)
All you have to do is buy infrared bulbs. Here in the US you can buy them at any hardware store for $8 to $10 bucks. They are mostly used in bathrooms. It takes about 5minutes for one to heat up an average bathroom.
Ive worked in both a stained glass factory and done maintenence in a historic church in the US for a decade. The customization offerings are absolutely brilliant. Currently, lighting options for churches revolve around 2 options: insanely expensive bespoke designs and the same catalouge options that everyone else has... which very often will clash with the existing interior. So being able to offer something that adds touches of personalization to tie into the architecture is novel for just a lighting solution... but building in heating as well... thats a genious stroke. I hope you guys are patent protected because this is insanely good.
So refreshing to see the best of British manufacturing and Herschel's pioneering technology in action. It's success is something we can all be proud of...
Thank you so much for this video, the church I attend is wrestling with this exact challenge. Although we are already aware of and in contact with Herschel this video is so helpful in sharing with our congregation and explaining the concept and benefits for us and our planet. Bless you.
Good to see this. For several years now we have had Herschel infrared panels in our listed house (1550 stone and cob) and love them to bits. Previously we had two wood burning stoves and a couple of ancient storage heaters, but we are much happier now with the quality of heat and the fact that we have been able to move away from burning stuff to heat the house. To complete that picture our energy provider is Ecotricity who source 100% renewable electricity. Initially we ran the panels off programmable thermostats, but we have found we can run them even more economically simply by switching them on and off as needed - as soon as you flip the switch you are feeling warm literally within a couple of minutes.
Believe you can plug some of the smaller panels in directly, but ours are hard wired into the ring main. Suggest you review the other video on this channel for more info: ua-cam.com/video/zSzYSfkwrts/v-deo.htmlsi=CdDJamiUHnE3aUrl
@@peterwynnychuk5085 Yes, a standard three pin BS1363 plug in UK or cobbled into a fused, switched spur off a ring main, or a radial from a spare on the consumer unit via a conveniently placed wall/ceiling pull switch. Just make sure the cable is suitable for a possibly up to a 1kW load for the length of run required. For sparkies this ranks as an "easy" job.
You are? Must be different to the ones I have. They take about half an hour to warm even a small room up by a degree. Not impressed with mine and I've got 6 of them. 😢
@@rogerphelps9939I think you’ve misunderstood how IR heaters work - that’s the point you are not losing heat hand over fist because you are not trying to heat the whole air mass.
Air has a low thermal capacity. Easy to heat. It is fixed structures that take the energy. Who says a person is easier to heatthan a fixed structure.? Please learn some physics.@@GrahamRead101
@@rogerphelps9939 yes air does have low thermal capacity, but it’s also a lot larger volume than directly heating the humans and air also moves and thus rises - so in a large space you at losing all that heat up into the high ceilings and out any frequently open doors etc in places with high foot fall like warehouses and churches etc. So, as I say, IR heating is a completely different proposition. For places like homes where you want long term constant heating things that warm the thermal mass like walls etc are better; but for areas like churches, community halls etc which need to be heated quickly but not all the time, such heating is wasteful.
Great episode Imogen. A perfect application of existing energy upgrades meeting a specific need and being cost affordable while doing so without looking industrial and out of place. I get what you meant about wonderful radiant heat. As a Canadian I can remember many a frigid winter morning sitting in a cold arena to watch my son playing hockey. Some of the buildings used a system where a hanging pipe suspended over the seating area funnelled the heated exhaust of the ice cooling plant to the outside. The heat that they threw off was reflected by curved attached metal "fins" and the effect was like sitting near an old fashioned wood stove. That and a nice coffee and life was good.
I came here fully expecting to be completely lost at the logic of using infrared heating (which is something I have seen the UK do here and there but basically never elsewhere), but for a church it really does feel like it would make perfect sense. Cool!
Great video. This is the kind of practical, available now, information we need - and communicated in a way that the presenter has clearly thought about the topic and asks intelligent questions.
Love this episode. We have an old church building that needs a new heating system and I'd love to do something like this... it simply is a brilliant idea and so elegantly executed!
THANKS 🤗 IMOGEN …FOR SHARING THIS BRILLIANT AND BEAUTIFUL 🤩 SOLUTION… back in the 70s. I worked in the shop that had gas powered infrared heating and it worked beautifully in a 20 foot high ceiling building.🤗 GREAT TO SEE THERE IS A MODERN ELECTRIC ⚡️ EQUIVALENT 💚💚💚
A fantastic combination of existing heating technology with beautiful craftsmanship, and reducing carbon emissions to boot, what’s not to like! 😀👏🏻 Wonderfully presented by Imogen as always ☺️👍🏻
I always feel like the dirty secret in this videos is that it's cheaper. "It looks nice, it fits the aesthetic... it's low carbon, it's efficient.... oh yeah it's *whispers*... cheaper..."
You can buy infrared bulbs for $8 to $10 bucks. The thing that was expensive in this clip was the architect designed chandeliers. Because architect... But all you need is the $10 bulbs.
@@Metal0sopher Yes but you neglect to consider the aesthetic. People in UK aren't going to be praying away under just light bulbs ... they want something a bit more trendy than that. Heaven has to put in a bit more effort than that if it wants posteriors on pews and an overflowing collection plate. In my local village church I installed LED uplighters aimed at the barrel roof. I selected the purple output, and, if you squinted really hard you could see the angels shining through. It couldn't be called magical because Christians don't believe in magic so we called it miraculous ... which goes to prove the old saying that if you put on a good light show they will worship. True story that.
@@t1n4444 Wasn't criticizing the church. Just making the point that the cost was in the design, not the technology. Anyone can have those bulbs at home for cheap. The way it was presented in this video gave the impression that you have to hire this company to get the heat lamps. Nope.
One thing I'm surprised wasn't brought up in the video is the benefit of not having circulating air. Pretty much every method of heating a room involves/requires air flow to work, whether that be convection currents or a blower motor. To make convection currents work, you need to expend a _lot_ of energy in order for the air to move on its own. And of course, this means the heat transfer is very slow, and a lot of it will typically just rise rather than reach the target. With forced air, that's more noise, moving parts, ugly hardware, maintenance, and wasted energy to put the heat where you want it. Forcing air also means the air currents will hit targets that you might not want heated, such as uninsulated exterior surfaces. If the target can be heated directly through radiation, not only do you expend less energy getting the heat to the target, but you lose a lot less heat to the environment.
I've got a small standalone 560W IR panel heater. I rather like it to give extra spot heating with a low background heat from the gas central heating. At the moment I've lent it to our new climate hub in the town so folk can try it out in the offices and meeting rooms there.
Another great video with Imogen (are the rest of the team enjoying a holiday before London show?! Has someone kidnapped them?). The bespoke infrared heaters in the church look great, seem to perform perfectly and match so well with the church existing design and feel. What a beautiful church (and this from an atheist). I've visited the Herschel Infrared showroom in Bristol and the team there are really welcoming and I'd recommend a visit to anyone interested. We have a couple of the Herschel heaters in the house and they are easy and efficient to use. A great British company. Another low carbon solution to add to the mix. I love the idea that the congregation will feel that the sun is shining on them from above...🙂
I was surprised to see pictures of All Saints' Martock Parish Church in South Somerset at the beginning of this video as it was filmed in Bristol. I grew up only 100yds down the road from this church, which is one of the largest in the county and known for its magnificent carved roof to the nave.
Thanks @ImogenBhogal (& EES team) for bringing us another of these epispdes. In order to meet the government's proposed (cough! "ever changing") targets, this is exactly the type of efficient & clean solution which large industrial organisations should be implementing. The energy wastage I've witnessed at some facilities is utterly ridiculous & scary!
There are plenty of residential and small business uses too. An outdoor patio heater for example. And a small unit to heat your dog's kennel. Even one over your own bed to conserve energy instead of heating the entire room.
Also, you can have retroreflectors in the ceiling and on the walls to reflect the heat back again. Might need a lot more work to get the IR back, and not the visible, to fit in. Guilded corner reflectors should work. Who doesn't like a gold leaf ceiling?
I could see this halo heater being of use in any large living room, warming the furniture and occupants while allowing the thermostat for central heating to be dropped by 1-2 degrees.
Oddly, in the last 10 days I've bought two freestanding infrared panel heaters for home. The first was a 540W panel for the north facing kitchen that only has a very small radiator and the gas CH can't get warm enough. It's 600mm x 900mm and sits neatly under a breakfast bar where there was already a plug socket. I thought it would probably also work well in the conservatory so I tried it in both rooms and it worked brilliantly. But it's a bit big for the conservatory (looks wise) so when I spotted a 425W (600mm x 600mm) one at The Range for just £30 I snapped one up. I can't believe how good they are, as the video says they don't directly heat the air, they heat the furnishings and people. Both can be controlled by a phone app and the larger one is even Alexa compatible.
I've also heard of heating people instead of spaces. Like, instead of just insulating with thicker/more layers, get people fitted with little wearable heat sources. Not practical for everyone though, so this is probably the most workable solution for a large number of spaces.
I bought some infrared heaters for my shop. I found that the top of my head got hot, and the rest of me was cold. Maybe it's better further away. (Mine are about 4 feet away from me).
A great video Imogen, food for thought in my plan to get rid of gas central heating in my Victorian terrace house. Wonder how if I could replace some of the coving with a similar system to minimise recabling?.
As always - A big fan of new tech harmonizing with the environment. Be it outdoors or indoors. Visually? All the better. Knowing you fit in, making a living by making new, beneficial, interesting things that fit in. As opposed to just taking away, subtracting, for a quick buck. That's a good life, isn't it? A path with legs, so to speak, into the future. Worth a little aspiration, thought and effort I think. Rewards can take many forms.
Really Great Presentation! Thank you. This Available in america? For homes & Apartments? (If so, what the Approximate cost for a 4 Bedroom 3 bath 2500 square feet home?🤔😎)
Another reason radiant heating feels more comfortable is the air is cooler. Cool air feels fresh and enjoyable. I won't be putting a halo heater in a house, but radiant-heated floors or walls using water heated by a heat pump.
Infrared/direct heating is great for applications like a church or a garage but im not sure I"d use it for a house. Its fine if you sit in front or under the heater but if you want to heat a whole house the electricity is one of the most expensive methods. In the UK ekectricity has typically cost three times mains gas.
I think that is the whole point @ColinWatters. IR is used to heat people and articles in just a small area as opposed to the whole structure and components within it. Paired with a heat pump system, which is much more efficient that just about any fossil fuelled burning system, and electricity is bound to be more economical. And of course you could opt to generate some of your own electricity if you wanted to.
I was keen on getting a heat pump, but more and more I think we want infrared with occupancy sensors. I love this, I'd spot it because that's me, but I think very few others would.
IR heaters are excellent for fast, localised, short duration heating, and beautifully illustrated here in that precise application . But dwelling houses are used long duration occupancy. Furthermore because houses are long occupancy, you also need to control condensation. Aside from ventilation, condensation is also controlled by heating the building up, not just the people in it. You can use IR heaters in this situation, but heat pumps are the more efficient solution for long occupancy times.
It may be worth considering both... heat-pump to maintain a comfortable base temperature... and a portable IR heater for those days when you feel cold (instead of turning up the temps of the heat-pump, and paying to warm the entire house when you're just sat in the lounge, etc)
These are really neat. IR heating for spaces like this really make so much sense when they are so sparsely occupied. Just thinking outloud here, I wonder if there is still a requirement for some baseload (if you will) of some convection heating (heat pump ideally) . I wonder about the moisture risk longterm if the fabric of certain buildings is never warmed in the same way. Probably fine as it is a massive vapour open duranle ancient building. But certainly for other use cases I think the condensation risk of sole IR heating might need those calcs and assessment maybe. Simon seems like a really interesting chap. Also, were churches heated historically? I imagine some have open fireplaces.
Herschel Infrared is the company's name. These chandelier heaters cost between $5650 - $8950 each. It looks like this church bought the most expensive units, so it cost them $35,800 for the 4 units. Probably excluding installation. So long as they remain maintenance free for many years, then sure, these could save the church money over a furnace / boiler system, but wowzers are they expensive up front. If it weren't for the needed aesthetics, then the church could have gone with a much cheaper solution and saw the savings sooner. Have to imagine that the church also installed infrared heating solutions in the other rooms / offices given the replacement of the furnace, so this price is just for the nave.
Heaters can last, especially if they're well specified, and checked. I have a Glen 2kW convection heater for occasional use, 35 years old. The problem is a burning dust smell when it hasn't been on for months. Might need to dust them every October.
Churches are BIG, so church heating systems are big and costly. This installation was around the same cost as a conventional boiler replacement and a fraction of the cost of a heat pump installation.
Yes but.. how much would alternative heating plus chandeliers cost? Most of the price is in the ascetics and service. Not electrical heating elements I'm sure.
Interesting - They look nicely medieval in style and I like that ambient glow factor, probably feeling godly. You WILL need some background heating though or I expect damp will be a factor though.
I find portable IR heaters great. I work at home and don’t want to heat the whole house all day, having a 500W IR heater that just warms me is great, and it generally is using less power than my PV panels are generating.
Really elegant solution. I'm curious where the crossover is, based on the type of space you're trying to heat and the use case, where a heat pump vs zonal IR heaters will be better and vice versa. It's interesting that they expected electric to simply cost more than the gas heater, so I wonder how the economics would have worked out with a heat pump vs a zonal floor heater instead if they could have ignored the planning and heritage requirements.
iirc presuming a COP of ~3+, heat-pumps work out roughly even with Gas, at current electricity prices... so if this radiant heater is cheaper than a gas heater, it likely would have been cheaper than a heat-pump too. Basic meth would support this hypothesis too - a heat-pump would nominally use only 1/3 of the energy to produce the same heat - but if the radiant heater is able to heat less than 1/3 of the building interior, then it will use less energy overall than a heat-pump (because a heat-pump cannot effectively heat only part of a room)
Good episode, Imogen. Thank you . (For Robert) I think it sys something in the electronic bible that, "The Iron shall lay down with the Lamp" err... some such thing.
@@JC-jv5xw You are right. For some reason I was just thinking it was like getting heat from the sun. But of course it's not. It is more like getting heat from a fire. There will probably be no emission in the UV spectrum at all. It looks like there are some differences in wave length. I might look up one day how they actually work, cause as of right now it looks like they work by just heating a material that can withstand the heat 100 C or above. It also looks like the wave length have some effect on how the heat is absorbed by the skin.
@@Petch85 Just into the 'far IR' part of the IR spectrum - similar to the IR component of winter sun and not far off the IR that humans emit. Like the winter sun the heaters warm up the surfaces below them and they then contribute to what you feel - all round comfortable warmth. Older versions of radiant tend to be near or mid IR (which glow red when on) - harsher and prone to 'hot head/cold feet' effects.
This is really just the reinvention of the old fashioned electric radiator heater, just here used in a more intelligent way. I remember the one standing in our GP's waiting room in the 1950s and 60s. It left me freezing cold at the back and roasting at the front. From the top is definitely a far better way to do it.
I think infrared works best in large spaces where you don't want to heat the whole space. I don't think it works all that well in domestic settings; other technologies like heat pumps are usually much more efficient.
They do you know. A 350W unit can keep a five cubic metre space, not especially well insulated, quite cosy provided the outside ambient doesn't fall too far below 0C.
It's more a question of the level of insulation, if most of your central heat is leaking away, it make sense to heat what matters. This is the extreme case, where there is no question it easier to heat a few bodies in the center than tons of stone, and air up in the rafters. Yes, heat pumps a 3X more efficient, but if that heat is just leaking away through the walls, in rooms no one is in, better to turn on a radiant source where you are.
@@BooBaddyBig Heat pumps require you to have a wet central heating system i.e. radiators hence the cost of fitting not only the pump itself but also all the piping, radiators, labour etc. can make retrofitting it a really expensive solution. If you have an older 70's property with storage heaters you can half your bill by putting in panels room by room as and when you can afford it. All thermostatically controlled with different times and zones. Heat pumps are great but don't fit every house.
@@eldridgep2 And judging by the lack of enthusiasm in adopting this tech by UK households heat pumps don't fit every wallet either. Rishi has been obliged to up the grant from £5k to £7.5k but as yet no-one can be sure if this "bribe" will work. It should be mentioned too that fitting a heat pump is rather more involved than is stated. Given the o/p temperature of said heat pumps then to get the heat transfer to a living space relies on bigger radiators and possibly increasing the o.d. of the pipework to all 22mm simply to get the heat around the system. Some authorities claim heat pumps work "better" with wet underfloor heating systems as the temperature "match" is closer to the o/p of a heat pump. On top of that is the added faff of increasing the home's insulation. Insulation is probably the most cost effective way to retain heat but not all houses lend themselves to an easy upgrade to the insulation. Heat leaks from "everywhere" and that includes the front and back of terrace houses. Terrace housing generally implies older housing stock and sash windows. Sealing a sash window is certainly doable but not cheap. The old method of packing the gaps with wet newspaper (to more easily get the packing done) works but the natural ventilation is much reduced. Coupled with the 70s/80s trend to rip out old fireplaces and block off the natural ventilation in a room was not ideal as very few people fitted a vent to the chimney breast. The Edwardian house builders knew very well the only way to avoid damp (some older terraces didn't have a damp proof course or relied on slate which cracks over time) was to have air bricks as low as possible and chimneys which would act as both passive and active ventilation depending if the fire was lit or not. Fitting a gas fire in the old fireplace, without ventilation around the fire merely allowed the water vapour produced by the gas burning to rise up and then condense in the upper parts of the flue. Which merely allowed damp to penetrate the brick work causing the plaster in the bedrooms to fall off in time. All the above available via Google if arsed.
Could more information be provided on how Herschel heat their manufacturing facility? Like countless others, my shop is a 10,000 ft² steel building with a 20' roof at the ridge. We absolutely blow through copious amounts of fossil gas attempting to heat the building during the cold months. The existing lighting are metal halide bulbs. They're slow to light and are tremendously wasteful; rated at 400W, but actually consuming just north of 450W of electricity. With 13 fixtures, the energy just to light the warehouse/shop area comes to about 1.2kWh per month! The replacement LED fixtures I'm about to fit will cut the lighting component of the energy bill almost in half. They'll also be brighter, light instantly and produce no heat (which only serves to increase the temperature in the warehouse/shop during the warm months). It seems that infrared heating, combined with LED lighting, would be a natural fit for a quite large target addressable market.
For most spaces the cost effective solution is insulation, just spray foam the roof and walls. Where radiant makes sense in big space is a shop where the doors are constantly open in cold weather. And even then one of those see-through flap doors between receiving and the shop floor might make the biggest difference?
@@briankuhl9314 Not true. My shop is fully insulated. The problem is conduction. Heat energy migrates from hot (interior) to cold (exterior). This heat loss is further compounded due to the volume to be conditioned. The vast majority of the volume doesn't need to be conditioned as it's entirely void of either people or material. Infrared heating works by heating people, not objects. Therefore it'd be superior to forced hot air. Especially where the electricity was sourced from renewables. Lastly, spray foam insulation in buildings such as steel warehouses is economically infeasible.
This is just another version of what restaurants already put outside to on the patio/outside eating area. There's nothing new here, although iGuess using outdoor heating for inside might be novel, lol
Herschel should send this product across the pond. We don't have much in terms of old buildings, but plenty of cold winters and need for efficient heat.
Lovely and beautiful history. Imitating God's heat of the Sun (electric radiant heat) in churches with such a degree of aesthetics and love is amazing. The funny thing is that British protestants will save Italian Catholic churches from cold.
I imagine we'll have smart heaters with cameras that detect the people in the room and direct the heat to only heat the people (& a small bubble around them) instead of heating entire rooms
Easy to answer - it feels uniform. The feeling is not just from the heaters but the warm surfaces below re-emitting warmth - so feels like a gentle, even bubble of all round heat.
So the installation cost offsets the limited heating "time"' - buildings in the UK don't need central heating to prevent frost heave - vs heatpumps $$$.. in mainland Europe or the US/ Interior Asia - central heating is a structural issue - for architecture.. In Australia - patially occuped spaces have nbeen heated with Radiant heating "for ever" - ie very few spaces (outside the ACT - Canberra) have gas to air or other, central heating.
Bear in mind many of these old churches were built at a time when big buildings typically weren't heated... so they're built to withstand being left at ambient temperature year-round, etc.
This is a nice simple solution if you don’t need air-conditioning. If you need AC, a heat pump becomes the most straightforward and efficient solution.
My only concern would be that churches, particularly in the UK because of the way they’re built, can probably become damp in areas where heat is not present. So radiant heat like proposed here is great for costs, but you’d also probably need a bit of warm air circulation here and there anyway?
This is an intriguing solution but the reporting completely fails to explain how radiant heat works and its drawbacks. You want to combat misinformation and then fail to acknowledge the issues. Radiant heat works just like light: it heats what it can illuminate but then what is in 'shadow' remains cold. This goes for the congregation and the pews on which they sit. The church might be able to compensate by turning the heaters on several hours before a service, but the report doesn't say how long that might be or how effective it would be. If the church is cold and the radiant heaters are turned on, the congregation will have an extremely unpleasant sensation just like standing next to a patio heater on a cold night (one side of them will be warm and the other side cold). How are these issues being resolved?
I love the fact that they don't "glow" with any visible light. You can feel the warmth but there is no visual indicator. Any visible light coming from the heating elements is essentially just wasted energy.
People generate between 500 - 1000 BTUs of heat when not active. With 300 people in a church that adds up to significant heat. Inferred heat has been promoted for over 50 years with mostly poor results. People want warm air. There are inferred heaters now a days that focus in on the stronger heating wave lengths.
@logitech4873 After watching the video, I found that, actually, it might work out cheaper in the long run. Getting your house ready for a heatpump and the cost of the heatpump itself and installation is around 15k. (Call it 10k) with the government grant. A 700w ceiling panel infrared heater costs around £125 (smart enabled device too), and unlike heat pumps, you can be self installed if you're comfortable doing DIY electrical work in your home. Let's say you need 10 to cover all the rooms effectively within your house, that's only £1250. Call it £1500 to include additional stuff to create spurs from your rings. A heatpump will, on average, operate at 175% efficiency during the colder months (when you need it), whereas infrared heaters are only 100% efficient. The interesting thing is, you are not aiming to heat the entire house, you are wanting to make the areas you are in at a comfortable temperature. A heatpump will take a long time to get the house up to temperature, whereas the infrared panels are instantly working from turning them on. You also have the benefit of individual room heating. Coupled with the "smart" side of them, you could use presence sensors to automatically turn them on and off as you move from one room to another. The fact that it takes longer for the heat pump to heat up has to run longer to keep the house at an acceptable temperature and costs around 10 times more to install, I actually think these Infrared heaters are a much better option. Especially if you are able to install them yourself.
How much electricity doe these use? And could they be fully powered by solar pv on a south facing church in the middle of winter? I would guess they so very easily could. That really would be a game changer with huge potential.
If it would be a game changer, regular people would already use this in their homes. This is not new technology nor ground breaking. To answer your question…Solar output is way worse in winter, when you actually need the heat. Usually by a factor of 10 worse. In practical terms this means that they couldn’t get enough PV panels on the roof for heating in the winter months.
@@AttilaTheHun333333 given the roof-space for panels, even in winter I recon that church could generate ~7kW / hour, or more (based on my 8x panels generating 200-500w / hour in winter, and appearing to have space for 4x30 panels, compared to my 2x4). Might not be enough to fully cover the needs of the heaters - but it would certainly cover a chunk... especially if paired with a storage battery.
@@logicalChimp - yup. The modelling for that church shows that in winter sun the roof would generate enough to run the heaters at a lower setting. And yes, for a lot of churches with infrequent use, a battery makes sense - charge up off the solar and use that for the times you need heat.
Of course heating just when and where you want the heat, when that reduce the amount of heating required to a small fraction of heating up the entire building can save a lot of energy. In most cases you want to keep a reasonable temperature, constantly, or at least for prolonged periods of time. While very a cost efficient way to provide thermal comfort temporarily and locally, with little energy, infrared heating with resistive heaters shouldn't be mistaken for a generally energy efficient way to provide heat, it is just not that. A lot of advantages in that specific type of scenario, and similar situations. Instant heat radiation, localized, and also cheap, robust and compact equipment, without moving parts, are readily available. The "COP" being 1 isn't a huge drawback when you just need to achieve thermal comfort in a part of a huge stone building for fully clothed people a few hours a week, and only part of the year.
What I loved most about meeting Simon at St Michael's is that he didn't push for a cleaner solution because it's his job and he's paid to do so, but because he truly cares and can see the value as well as the power and the responsibility that a large organisation such as the Church of England has to delivering net zero. I doth my cap to the Simon's of this world.
*doff?
Nice video, but you really always need to emphasise in these videos that heat pumps will always be over 3x more efficient than literally any other source of heating. While you might be heating a smaller space with infra red, it really doesn't matter that you're heating a larger space if the heat is a third of the cost with a heat pump. Lots of examples of churches with heat pumps.
Heat pumps are wonderful technology, but heating tons of uninsulated stone to any more than few degrees above outside temperature is a ridiculous amount of energy. Even if electricity wasn't overpriced, a heat pump would still have the same issue as a traditional gas or oil boiler or forced air system. The vast majority of the heat sits up in the rafters or is sucked into the stone. Having been in an uncomfortably hot loft above a cold main floor in giant space on more than one occasion, the radiant heating intuitively makes so much sense. Not every solution fits every application.
@@benjaminchristianhay i have learnt something new today!! Thank you!! Do Take Off -> Doff.
If the UK is going to push for greater ASHP rollout, it may be worth considering amending MCS regulations to only require the heat-pump to provide up to, say, 90-95% of the maximum potential heating load. A dedicated half-price socket that an infrared heater is plugged into in the main living space could provide the added 5-10% in event of another Beast from the East, or something along these lines.
This is a really good application for infrared heating. It's not right everywhere, but for a large, poorly-insulated, intermittently-occupied public space it's hard to imagine a better alternative.
There are also gas powered infrared heaters I believe
Where would they be inappropriate?
@@1voluntaryist Heat pumps are better in most cases due to COPs of 3 or more (3kW heat out for every kW electricity in), giving much lower running costs than any form of direct electric heating (whether it be old fashioned resistance heaters or fancy IR).
However they have lower peak output, so where you need an occasional sudden rush of heat (like in a church for a service) they may be competitive due to lower installation cost.
Ideally probably is a hybrid solution where you have a small heat pump running steadily to keep the frost & damp away and heat the place comfortably in mild weather, with IR for a sudden boost in the depths of winter.
Brilliant! I love the name of the product considering that it came about thinking how to help out churches, but even more importantly it is locally sourced, made and used. I can see churches that are hundreds of years old being kitted out with these things. Huge industrial spaces, old listed building and others need to take note of this tech! Great story guys, keep them coming!
Thank you!
This is what is needed, straight forward, positive information about how energy efficient solutions can work, save money and look great!
Thanks for highlighting this.
I'm not sure I would call this "energy efficient" this is literally the same energy efficiency as any resistive heating and has been around ages.
@@Mike__BThey are spending less on electric heating using this method than they were on gas heating previously. Given that electricity per kWh is so much more expensive than gas, this indicates that they are being vastly more energy efficient than they were. On the low carbon front, each kWh of UK electricity produces 82g of Carbon, whereas each kWh of gas produces 185g. So far fewer kWh, and far fewer carbon grams per kWh. Very much more efficient on all fronts.
@@simhedgesrex7097 It most probably is because they are using focused heat, so they don't have to heat the whole church just the seats (as they showed in the video), so I'll give them that but it's not really and apples to apples comparison on efficiency. Now on the efficiency front it could be they were using really old gravity heaters that maybe 20-30% efficient, then combined with the lack of directional heating yeah I can see why they were paying much more.
Does the UK get a majority of it's power from renewable (non-burning) resources? Because I'm not so sure I buy that carbon argument, here in the US water heating devices whether a furnace or a water heater has a minimum efficiency rating of 80%, a natural gas power plant at most is half that efficiency, so there's no way gas would put out over twice the amount of carbon unless your local government is playing a number manipulation game and factoring in a bunch of inefficient devices.
@@Mike__B "Does the UK get a majority of it's power from renewable (non-burning) resources?" - yes. Over the past year, 33% of our electricity came from fossil fuels, and 5.5% from Biomass. The rest of electricity generated in the UK came from Wind, Solar, Hydro and Nuclear.
As they teach at school, heat is transferred by conduction, convection and radiation. Then you realise it's not that simple when there's dampness/humidity, and ventilation and frost protection needed. There's also building control and listed building requirements. Looks like they done a great job, but don't know if it's a cookie cutter solution, need someone who understands each building and setting?
they look great. Hiding in plain sight is very a very smart approach
What a nice story all around. Just brimming with pleasantness.
The old (very draughty) stone-built churches in the Scottish Highlands and Islands tended to use traditional overhead radiant heaters that were switched on shortly before the service, and probably still do. Fascinating video!
I wish I'd seen this a year ago. Our church is on the brink of a renovation and we are putting in a mix of infrared heaters and a heat pump. As well as insulation etc.
Our old gas heating needed to be on a full 24 hours at least before a service and you'd still keep your coat on in the winter.
This looks like a great solution for churches and fits the aesthetic very well.
Hopefully the cost savings work out for us too!
A TCO breakdown, complete with breakeven analysis, would be quite helpful. Like most new technology, the Herschel Halo heaters are certain to be more expensive to acquire. However, it's the total cost of ownership that matters the most to organizations.
Then there's the option of having plain square panels fixed to the walls.
Or fly them if preferred.
And it's possible to have images on the panels so could always hide them in plain sight.
A few religious icons might be acceptable when applying for
the church faculty.
Send a few examples to the Bishop to choose, which might, possibly, only possibly mind you, stop the nay sayers carping away,
as is not unknown.
Might be an idea to have the panels coordinate with the hue of the interior stone work.
The heat "shines" down from above as if a benison from the Almighty himself sitting in his Heaven.
There again some Vicars are perfectly at home with tech such as radio mics bx from flown column speakers or even LED luminaires using full DMX.
Anything, almost, to get posteriors on pews and knees on hassocks.
Best bit was when Simon said cost per service had come down from £75 to £15/service. Now we need to know the upfront and lifetime cost of the equipment . People need to know that as well if they are to take things up. The tech is perfect for big rooms and I have one at home. Its great.
IR heating can be great for short occupancy or extremely voluminous locations as shown here but it's far from ideal for homes. Firstly it has to be on continuously for you to feel warm, more importantly, by not heating the fabric of the building, there's a high risk of condensation and mould growth on surfaces in occupied rooms without increased ventilation. It's far from a panacea in homes.
Herschel Infrared is the company's name. These chandelier heaters cost between $5650 - $8950 each. It looks like this church bought the most expensive units, so it cost them $35,800.
@@updlate4756 Yus... but it would likely have cost a lot to buy and install any other heating system for a building that large.... not to mention the operational costs.
Whilst these heaters may have been expensive to buy, the installation costs would have been far less (especially if they already had chandeliers or similar for lighting), as well as their lower operational cost (given they're no longer trying to heat the entirety of the interior, etc)
Must add "cost per service" to my list of energy metrics.😂
All you have to do is buy infrared bulbs. Here in the US you can buy them at any hardware store for $8 to $10 bucks. They are mostly used in bathrooms. It takes about 5minutes for one to heat up an average bathroom.
Ive worked in both a stained glass factory and done maintenence in a historic church in the US for a decade. The customization offerings are absolutely brilliant. Currently, lighting options for churches revolve around 2 options: insanely expensive bespoke designs and the same catalouge options that everyone else has... which very often will clash with the existing interior. So being able to offer something that adds touches of personalization to tie into the architecture is novel for just a lighting solution... but building in heating as well... thats a genious stroke. I hope you guys are patent protected because this is insanely good.
So refreshing to see the best of British manufacturing and Herschel's pioneering technology in action. It's success is something we can all be proud of...
Thank you so much for this video, the church I attend is wrestling with this exact challenge. Although we are already aware of and in contact with Herschel this video is so helpful in sharing with our congregation and explaining the concept and benefits for us and our planet. Bless you.
Good to see this. For several years now we have had Herschel infrared panels in our listed house (1550 stone and cob) and love them to bits. Previously we had two wood burning stoves and a couple of ancient storage heaters, but we are much happier now with the quality of heat and the fact that we have been able to move away from burning stuff to heat the house. To complete that picture our energy provider is Ecotricity who source 100% renewable electricity. Initially we ran the panels off programmable thermostats, but we have found we can run them even more economically simply by switching them on and off as needed - as soon as you flip the switch you are feeling warm literally within a couple of minutes.
Are these like the Electric Heaters plugged into the Wall Outlet? Or something different?
Believe you can plug some of the smaller panels in directly, but ours are hard wired into the ring main. Suggest you review the other video on this channel for more info: ua-cam.com/video/zSzYSfkwrts/v-deo.htmlsi=CdDJamiUHnE3aUrl
@@peterwynnychuk5085
Yes, a standard three pin BS1363 plug in UK or cobbled into a fused, switched spur off a ring main, or a radial from a spare on the consumer unit via a conveniently placed wall/ceiling pull switch.
Just make sure the cable is suitable for a possibly up to a 1kW load for the length of run required.
For sparkies this ranks as an "easy" job.
You are? Must be different to the ones I have. They take about half an hour to warm even a small room up by a degree. Not impressed with mine and I've got 6 of them. 😢
That chandelier is an elegant solution I'm surprised noone thought about before.
I really appreciate the reports that show how we can use new technology in older existing parts of society.
Now this is where infra red finds it's niche. Really great application of the technology, with an elegant design. Awesome.
IR heaters are great for large poorly insulated buildings such as these, we have been using IR heaters for over 20 years in our hangers.
Losing heat hand over fist.
@@rogerphelps9939I think you’ve misunderstood how IR heaters work - that’s the point you are not losing heat hand over fist because you are not
trying to heat the whole air mass.
Air has a low thermal capacity. Easy to heat. It is fixed structures that take the energy. Who says a person is easier to heatthan a fixed structure.? Please learn some physics.@@GrahamRead101
@@rogerphelps9939 yes air does have low thermal capacity, but it’s also a lot larger volume than directly heating the humans and air also moves and thus rises - so in a large space you at losing all that heat up into the high ceilings and out any frequently open doors etc in places with high foot fall like warehouses and churches etc. So, as I say, IR heating is a completely different proposition. For places like homes where you want long term constant heating things that warm the thermal mass like walls etc are better; but for areas like churches, community halls etc which need to be heated quickly but not all the time, such heating is wasteful.
Great episode Imogen. A perfect application of existing energy upgrades meeting a specific need and being cost affordable while doing so without looking industrial and out of place.
I get what you meant about wonderful radiant heat. As a Canadian I can remember many a frigid winter morning sitting in a cold arena to watch my son playing hockey. Some of the buildings used a system where a hanging pipe suspended over the seating area funnelled the heated exhaust of the ice cooling plant to the outside. The heat that they threw off was reflected by curved attached metal "fins" and the effect was like sitting near an old fashioned wood stove. That and a nice coffee and life was good.
Absolutely amazing. The engineering skills to make a product work a look good. You could use the same principle for the domestic market. Can’t wait.
Brilliant interview. Learnt so much more about the company and the products their sell.
Innovative solutions to real problems. Fantastic!
I came here fully expecting to be completely lost at the logic of using infrared heating (which is something I have seen the UK do here and there but basically never elsewhere), but for a church it really does feel like it would make perfect sense. Cool!
What a great episode well done to all involved👏😃
Great video. This is the kind of practical, available now, information we need - and communicated in a way that the presenter has clearly thought about the topic and asks intelligent questions.
Love this episode. We have an old church building that needs a new heating system and I'd love to do something like this... it simply is a brilliant idea and so elegantly executed!
Are you the only one working Imogen? Tell the boys to get off their butts!😂
It's the Fully Imogen Show now. 🙂
THANKS 🤗 IMOGEN …FOR SHARING THIS BRILLIANT AND BEAUTIFUL 🤩 SOLUTION… back in the 70s. I worked in the shop that had gas powered infrared heating and it worked beautifully in a 20 foot high ceiling building.🤗 GREAT TO SEE THERE IS A MODERN ELECTRIC ⚡️ EQUIVALENT 💚💚💚
No complaints here 🙂
A fantastic combination of existing heating technology with beautiful craftsmanship, and reducing carbon emissions to boot, what’s not to like! 😀👏🏻 Wonderfully presented by Imogen as always ☺️👍🏻
The heaters fit right in!
I always feel like the dirty secret in this videos is that it's cheaper. "It looks nice, it fits the aesthetic... it's low carbon, it's efficient.... oh yeah it's *whispers*... cheaper..."
You can buy infrared bulbs for $8 to $10 bucks. The thing that was expensive in this clip was the architect designed chandeliers. Because architect... But all you need is the $10 bulbs.
@@Metal0sopher
Yes but you neglect to consider the aesthetic.
People in UK aren't going to be praying away under just light bulbs ... they want something a bit more trendy than that.
Heaven has to put in a bit more effort than that if it wants posteriors on pews and an overflowing collection plate.
In my local village church I installed LED uplighters aimed at the barrel roof.
I selected the purple output, and, if you squinted really hard you could see the angels shining through.
It couldn't be called magical because Christians don't believe in magic so we called it miraculous ... which goes to prove the old saying that if you put on a good light show they will worship.
True story that.
@@t1n4444 Wasn't criticizing the church. Just making the point that the cost was in the design, not the technology. Anyone can have those bulbs at home for cheap. The way it was presented in this video gave the impression that you have to hire this company to get the heat lamps. Nope.
@@Metal0sopher
😂😂😂😂😂
You have misunderstood the thrust of the video.
Plus you appear not recognised satire.
What a great solution to a problem I didn't even consider existed. Sounds like wins all round.
One thing I'm surprised wasn't brought up in the video is the benefit of not having circulating air. Pretty much every method of heating a room involves/requires air flow to work, whether that be convection currents or a blower motor. To make convection currents work, you need to expend a _lot_ of energy in order for the air to move on its own. And of course, this means the heat transfer is very slow, and a lot of it will typically just rise rather than reach the target. With forced air, that's more noise, moving parts, ugly hardware, maintenance, and wasted energy to put the heat where you want it. Forcing air also means the air currents will hit targets that you might not want heated, such as uninsulated exterior surfaces.
If the target can be heated directly through radiation, not only do you expend less energy getting the heat to the target, but you lose a lot less heat to the environment.
I haven't been a fan of direct usage of electricity for heating, but this is actually brilliant. Really impressive, well done!
awesome solutions and beautifully built units, got to congratulate the team out there !
Nice idea and application. I would have liked to have seen some information on the IR heaters. Please do a video on them.
I've got a small standalone 560W IR panel heater. I rather like it to give extra spot heating with a low background heat from the gas central heating. At the moment I've lent it to our new climate hub in the town so folk can try it out in the offices and meeting rooms there.
Bravo, love this. Absolutely amazing and so simple.
Another great video with Imogen (are the rest of the team enjoying a holiday before London show?! Has someone kidnapped them?). The bespoke infrared heaters in the church look great, seem to perform perfectly and match so well with the church existing design and feel. What a beautiful church (and this from an atheist). I've visited the Herschel Infrared showroom in Bristol and the team there are really welcoming and I'd recommend a visit to anyone interested. We have a couple of the Herschel heaters in the house and they are easy and efficient to use. A great British company. Another low carbon solution to add to the mix. I love the idea that the congregation will feel that the sun is shining on them from above...🙂
Long ago I would put heat lamps in my light sockets. It did wonders for a drafty apartment in the winter.
Excellent idea. Already sent link to church members
I was surprised to see pictures of All Saints' Martock Parish Church in South Somerset at the beginning of this video as it was filmed in Bristol. I grew up only 100yds down the road from this church, which is one of the largest in the county and known for its magnificent carved roof to the nave.
Thanks @ImogenBhogal (& EES team) for bringing us another of these epispdes. In order to meet the government's proposed (cough! "ever changing") targets, this is exactly the type of efficient & clean solution which large industrial organisations should be implementing. The energy wastage I've witnessed at some facilities is utterly ridiculous & scary!
TBF that is actually an elegant solution.
Great idea. (“Big lofty rafters where heat rises.” Heat doesn’t rise. Heated air rises. Heat goes to where there's less of it.)
There are plenty of residential and small business uses too. An outdoor patio heater for example. And a small unit to heat your dog's kennel. Even one over your own bed to conserve energy instead of heating the entire room.
Also, you can have retroreflectors in the ceiling and on the walls to reflect the heat back again. Might need a lot more work to get the IR back, and not the visible, to fit in. Guilded corner reflectors should work. Who doesn't like a gold leaf ceiling?
I could see this halo heater being of use in any large living room, warming the furniture and occupants while allowing the thermostat for central heating to be dropped by 1-2 degrees.
Oddly, in the last 10 days I've bought two freestanding infrared panel heaters for home. The first was a 540W panel for the north facing kitchen that only has a very small radiator and the gas CH can't get warm enough. It's 600mm x 900mm and sits neatly under a breakfast bar where there was already a plug socket. I thought it would probably also work well in the conservatory so I tried it in both rooms and it worked brilliantly. But it's a bit big for the conservatory (looks wise) so when I spotted a 425W (600mm x 600mm) one at The Range for just £30 I snapped one up. I can't believe how good they are, as the video says they don't directly heat the air, they heat the furnishings and people. Both can be controlled by a phone app and the larger one is even Alexa compatible.
Outstanding. I love an ingenious and appropriate solution.
I've also heard of heating people instead of spaces. Like, instead of just insulating with thicker/more layers, get people fitted with little wearable heat sources. Not practical for everyone though, so this is probably the most workable solution for a large number of spaces.
nice to see a video linked to the podcast 👍
I bought some infrared heaters for my shop. I found that the top of my head got hot, and the rest of me was cold. Maybe it's better further away. (Mine are about 4 feet away from me).
A great video Imogen, food for thought in my plan to get rid of gas central heating in my Victorian terrace house. Wonder how if I could replace some of the coving with a similar system to minimise recabling?.
As always - A big fan of new tech harmonizing with the environment. Be it outdoors or indoors. Visually? All the better. Knowing you fit in, making a living by making new, beneficial, interesting things that fit in. As opposed to just taking away, subtracting, for a quick buck. That's a good life, isn't it? A path with legs, so to speak, into the future. Worth a little aspiration, thought and effort I think. Rewards can take many forms.
Really Great Presentation!
Thank you.
This Available in america? For homes & Apartments?
(If so, what the Approximate cost for a 4 Bedroom 3 bath 2500 square feet home?🤔😎)
Another reason radiant heating feels more comfortable is the air is cooler. Cool air feels fresh and enjoyable. I won't be putting a halo heater in a house, but radiant-heated floors or walls using water heated by a heat pump.
Really interesting project on bringing old building's to the 21st century. And new green tech is enabled it
Infrared/direct heating is great for applications like a church or a garage but im not sure I"d use it for a house. Its fine if you sit in front or under the heater but if you want to heat a whole house the electricity is one of the most expensive methods. In the UK ekectricity has typically cost three times mains gas.
I think that is the whole point @ColinWatters. IR is used to heat people and articles in just a small area as opposed to the whole structure and components within it. Paired with a heat pump system, which is much more efficient that just about any fossil fuelled burning system, and electricity is bound to be more economical. And of course you could opt to generate some of your own electricity if you wanted to.
I was keen on getting a heat pump, but more and more I think we want infrared with occupancy sensors. I love this, I'd spot it because that's me, but I think very few others would.
IR heaters are excellent for fast, localised, short duration heating, and beautifully illustrated here in that precise application . But dwelling houses are used long duration occupancy. Furthermore because houses are long occupancy, you also need to control condensation. Aside from ventilation, condensation is also controlled by heating the building up, not just the people in it. You can use IR heaters in this situation, but heat pumps are the more efficient solution for long occupancy times.
An air-to-air heat pump provides air-conditioning as well as heat, which is a key factor in more and more regions these days.
It may be worth considering both... heat-pump to maintain a comfortable base temperature... and a portable IR heater for those days when you feel cold (instead of turning up the temps of the heat-pump, and paying to warm the entire house when you're just sat in the lounge, etc)
Would this be a good replacement for patio heaters too?
You said IR is just a different part of the light spectrum. Can these functions be combined for regular household lightbulbs?
Wow that's awesome! Very nicely presented!
Need to check for draughts whilst having ventilation at the same time, moving cold air will still make you cold?
These are really neat. IR heating for spaces like this really make so much sense when they are so sparsely occupied. Just thinking outloud here, I wonder if there is still a requirement for some baseload (if you will) of some convection heating (heat pump ideally) . I wonder about the moisture risk longterm if the fabric of certain buildings is never warmed in the same way. Probably fine as it is a massive vapour open duranle ancient building. But certainly for other use cases I think the condensation risk of sole IR heating might need those calcs and assessment maybe.
Simon seems like a really interesting chap.
Also, were churches heated historically? I imagine some have open fireplaces.
The Holy Ghost did all the warming necessary.
There again people hundreds of year ago probably wrapped up as best they could.
I've installed these heaters and they are great. Not everyone's taste, but if you like the heat from the sun. 👌
Herschel Infrared is the company's name. These chandelier heaters cost between $5650 - $8950 each. It looks like this church bought the most expensive units, so it cost them $35,800 for the 4 units. Probably excluding installation. So long as they remain maintenance free for many years, then sure, these could save the church money over a furnace / boiler system, but wowzers are they expensive up front. If it weren't for the needed aesthetics, then the church could have gone with a much cheaper solution and saw the savings sooner. Have to imagine that the church also installed infrared heating solutions in the other rooms / offices given the replacement of the furnace, so this price is just for the nave.
Heaters can last, especially if they're well specified, and checked. I have a Glen 2kW convection heater for occasional use, 35 years old. The problem is a burning dust smell when it hasn't been on for months. Might need to dust them every October.
Churches are BIG, so church heating systems are big and costly. This installation was around the same cost as a conventional boiler replacement and a fraction of the cost of a heat pump installation.
Yes but.. how much would alternative heating plus chandeliers cost? Most of the price is in the ascetics and service. Not electrical heating elements I'm sure.
Interesting - They look nicely medieval in style and I like that ambient glow factor, probably feeling godly.
You WILL need some background heating though or I expect damp will be a factor though.
Probably not. Many churches were entirely unheated for centuries before the Victorians started adding it, and survived pretty well.
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
Imogen is bossing it lately 👍😁
I find portable IR heaters great. I work at home and don’t want to heat the whole house all day, having a 500W IR heater that just warms me is great, and it generally is using less power than my PV panels are generating.
Really elegant solution. I'm curious where the crossover is, based on the type of space you're trying to heat and the use case, where a heat pump vs zonal IR heaters will be better and vice versa. It's interesting that they expected electric to simply cost more than the gas heater, so I wonder how the economics would have worked out with a heat pump vs a zonal floor heater instead if they could have ignored the planning and heritage requirements.
iirc presuming a COP of ~3+, heat-pumps work out roughly even with Gas, at current electricity prices... so if this radiant heater is cheaper than a gas heater, it likely would have been cheaper than a heat-pump too.
Basic meth would support this hypothesis too - a heat-pump would nominally use only 1/3 of the energy to produce the same heat - but if the radiant heater is able to heat less than 1/3 of the building interior, then it will use less energy overall than a heat-pump (because a heat-pump cannot effectively heat only part of a room)
Good episode, Imogen. Thank you . (For Robert) I think it sys something in the electronic bible that, "The Iron shall lay down with the Lamp" err... some such thing.
Should the attendens ware sunscreen?
What wave lengths are they emitting?
The title tells you Infra red, the opposite end of the visible spectrum to UV.
@@JC-jv5xw You are right. For some reason I was just thinking it was like getting heat from the sun. But of course it's not. It is more like getting heat from a fire. There will probably be no emission in the UV spectrum at all.
It looks like there are some differences in wave length. I might look up one day how they actually work, cause as of right now it looks like they work by just heating a material that can withstand the heat 100 C or above.
It also looks like the wave length have some effect on how the heat is absorbed by the skin.
@@Petch85 Just into the 'far IR' part of the IR spectrum - similar to the IR component of winter sun and not far off the IR that humans emit. Like the winter sun the heaters warm up the surfaces below them and they then contribute to what you feel - all round comfortable warmth. Older versions of radiant tend to be near or mid IR (which glow red when on) - harsher and prone to 'hot head/cold feet' effects.
Was after a tracker spotbeam IR heater for use at home, might be better for pubs outdoor? What are the universities up to?
This is really just the reinvention of the old fashioned electric radiator heater, just here used in a more intelligent way. I remember the one standing in our GP's waiting room in the 1950s and 60s. It left me freezing cold at the back and roasting at the front. From the top is definitely a far better way to do it.
Brilliant video Imogen!
I think infrared works best in large spaces where you don't want to heat the whole space. I don't think it works all that well in domestic settings; other technologies like heat pumps are usually much more efficient.
They do you know.
A 350W unit can keep a five cubic metre space, not especially well insulated, quite cosy provided the outside ambient doesn't fall too far below 0C.
@@t1n4444 There's only a slight advantage from 350 W radiant versus 350 watt fan heaters though and a heat pump would kick its ass.
It's more a question of the level of insulation, if most of your central heat is leaking away, it make sense to heat what matters. This is the extreme case, where there is no question it easier to heat a few bodies in the center than tons of stone, and air up in the rafters. Yes, heat pumps a 3X more efficient, but if that heat is just leaking away through the walls, in rooms no one is in, better to turn on a radiant source where you are.
@@BooBaddyBig Heat pumps require you to have a wet central heating system i.e. radiators hence the cost of fitting not only the pump itself but also all the piping, radiators, labour etc. can make retrofitting it a really expensive solution. If you have an older 70's property with storage heaters you can half your bill by putting in panels room by room as and when you can afford it. All thermostatically controlled with different times and zones. Heat pumps are great but don't fit every house.
@@eldridgep2
And judging by the lack of enthusiasm in adopting this tech by UK households heat pumps don't fit every wallet either.
Rishi has been obliged to up the grant from £5k to £7.5k but as yet no-one can be sure if this "bribe" will work.
It should be mentioned too that fitting a heat pump is rather more involved than is stated.
Given the o/p temperature of said heat pumps then to get the heat transfer to a living space relies on bigger radiators and possibly increasing the o.d. of the pipework to all 22mm simply to get the heat around the system.
Some authorities claim heat pumps work "better" with wet underfloor heating systems as the temperature "match" is closer to the o/p of a heat pump.
On top of that is the added faff of increasing the home's insulation.
Insulation is probably the most cost effective way to retain heat but not all houses lend themselves to an easy upgrade to the insulation.
Heat leaks from "everywhere" and that includes the front and back of terrace houses.
Terrace housing generally implies older housing stock and sash windows.
Sealing a sash window is certainly doable but not cheap. The old method of packing the gaps with wet newspaper (to more easily get the packing done) works but the natural ventilation is much reduced. Coupled with the 70s/80s trend to rip out old fireplaces and block off the natural ventilation in a room was not ideal as very few people fitted a vent to the chimney breast.
The Edwardian house builders knew very well the only way to avoid damp (some older terraces didn't have a damp proof course or relied on slate which cracks over time) was to have air bricks as low as possible and chimneys which would act as both passive and active ventilation depending if the fire was lit or not.
Fitting a gas fire in the old fireplace, without ventilation around the fire merely allowed the water vapour produced by the gas burning to rise up and then condense in the upper parts of the flue.
Which merely allowed damp to penetrate the brick work causing the plaster in the bedrooms to fall off in time.
All the above available via Google if arsed.
Could more information be provided on how Herschel heat their manufacturing facility? Like countless others, my shop is a 10,000 ft² steel building with a 20' roof at the ridge. We absolutely blow through copious amounts of fossil gas attempting to heat the building during the cold months. The existing lighting are metal halide bulbs. They're slow to light and are tremendously wasteful; rated at 400W, but actually consuming just north of 450W of electricity. With 13 fixtures, the energy just to light the warehouse/shop area comes to about 1.2kWh per month! The replacement LED fixtures I'm about to fit will cut the lighting component of the energy bill almost in half. They'll also be brighter, light instantly and produce no heat (which only serves to increase the temperature in the warehouse/shop during the warm months). It seems that infrared heating, combined with LED lighting, would be a natural fit for a quite large target addressable market.
For most spaces the cost effective solution is insulation, just spray foam the roof and walls. Where radiant makes sense in big space is a shop where the doors are constantly open in cold weather. And even then one of those see-through flap doors between receiving and the shop floor might make the biggest difference?
@@briankuhl9314 Not true. My shop is fully insulated. The problem is conduction. Heat energy migrates from hot (interior) to cold (exterior). This heat loss is further compounded due to the volume to be conditioned. The vast majority of the volume doesn't need to be conditioned as it's entirely void of either people or material. Infrared heating works by heating people, not objects. Therefore it'd be superior to forced hot air. Especially where the electricity was sourced from renewables.
Lastly, spray foam insulation in buildings such as steel warehouses is economically infeasible.
This is just another version of what restaurants already put outside to on the patio/outside eating area.
There's nothing new here, although iGuess using outdoor heating for inside might be novel, lol
Herschel should send this product across the pond. We don't have much in terms of old buildings, but plenty of cold winters and need for efficient heat.
Light plus radiant heat... So an incandescent bulb :)
Love my Herschel heaters
Lovely and beautiful history. Imitating God's heat of the Sun (electric radiant heat) in churches with such a degree of aesthetics and love is amazing. The funny thing is that British protestants will save Italian Catholic churches from cold.
I imagine we'll have smart heaters with cameras that detect the people in the room and direct the heat to only heat the people (& a small bubble around them) instead of heating entire rooms
What a lovely voice you have lady.
Link sent to our church wardens too. 👍
Beautiful
Yes, she is very cute!
I'd be interested in knowing how uniform the heat distribution is across the congregation
Easy to answer - it feels uniform. The feeling is not just from the heaters but the warm surfaces below re-emitting warmth - so feels like a gentle, even bubble of all round heat.
I've always wondered how these are different to the blazing red IR heaters you get in a pub garden? they've been around for ages.
It's the same technology. I *think* the same company makes those too. Check their website.
*BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, that's all I can say!!!*
That’s so nice! Shall we connect?
So the installation cost offsets the limited heating "time"' - buildings in the UK don't need central heating to prevent frost heave - vs heatpumps $$$..
in mainland Europe or the US/ Interior Asia - central heating is a structural issue - for architecture..
In Australia - patially occuped spaces have nbeen heated with Radiant heating "for ever" - ie very few spaces (outside the ACT - Canberra) have gas to air or other, central heating.
Bear in mind many of these old churches were built at a time when big buildings typically weren't heated... so they're built to withstand being left at ambient temperature year-round, etc.
This is a nice simple solution if you don’t need air-conditioning. If you need AC, a heat pump becomes the most straightforward and efficient solution.
Classic stone churches do not need AC.
My only concern would be that churches, particularly in the UK because of the way they’re built, can probably become damp in areas where heat is not present. So radiant heat like proposed here is great for costs, but you’d also probably need a bit of warm air circulation here and there anyway?
The radiant heat will circulate to the rest of the space, just not the comfortable temperatures we humans would like.
What have they been doing for the last 500 years ?
@@jsanders100 convection heating.
@@jsanders100Exactly. Churches started being heated in the Victorian era, not before (hence no fireplaces in cathedrals!).
This is an intriguing solution but the reporting completely fails to explain how radiant heat works and its drawbacks.
You want to combat misinformation and then fail to acknowledge the issues.
Radiant heat works just like light: it heats what it can illuminate but then what is in 'shadow' remains cold. This goes for the congregation and the pews on which they sit. The church might be able to compensate by turning the heaters on several hours before a service, but the report doesn't say how long that might be or how effective it would be. If the church is cold and the radiant heaters are turned on, the congregation will have an extremely unpleasant sensation just like standing next to a patio heater on a cold night (one side of them will be warm and the other side cold).
How are these issues being resolved?
I love the fact that they don't "glow" with any visible light. You can feel the warmth but there is no visual indicator. Any visible light coming from the heating elements is essentially just wasted energy.
People generate between 500 - 1000 BTUs of heat when not active. With 300 people in a church that adds up to significant heat. Inferred heat has been promoted for over 50 years with mostly poor results. People want warm air. There are inferred heaters now a days that focus in on the stronger heating wave lengths.
Wonder if this would work for a standard house. Would it be more efficient than a heat pump?
Absolutely not. Heatpumps are always better for insulated spaces.
@logitech4873 After watching the video, I found that, actually, it might work out cheaper in the long run. Getting your house ready for a heatpump and the cost of the heatpump itself and installation is around 15k. (Call it 10k) with the government grant. A 700w ceiling panel infrared heater costs around £125 (smart enabled device too), and unlike heat pumps, you can be self installed if you're comfortable doing DIY electrical work in your home.
Let's say you need 10 to cover all the rooms effectively within your house, that's only £1250. Call it £1500 to include additional stuff to create spurs from your rings.
A heatpump will, on average, operate at 175% efficiency during the colder months (when you need it), whereas infrared heaters are only 100% efficient. The interesting thing is, you are not aiming to heat the entire house, you are wanting to make the areas you are in at a comfortable temperature.
A heatpump will take a long time to get the house up to temperature, whereas the infrared panels are instantly working from turning them on. You also have the benefit of individual room heating. Coupled with the "smart" side of them, you could use presence sensors to automatically turn them on and off as you move from one room to another.
The fact that it takes longer for the heat pump to heat up has to run longer to keep the house at an acceptable temperature and costs around 10 times more to install, I actually think these Infrared heaters are a much better option. Especially if you are able to install them yourself.
@@CH11LER. 15K for a heatpump? What?
It cost me $2K for the one I have, including installation.
@@CH11LER.No they don't, they take ages to warm up rooms. I've got 6 of them and don't rate them at all.
Is there a residential version of this? I could use one in my apartment.
How much electricity doe these use? And could they be fully powered by solar pv on a south facing church in the middle of winter? I would guess they so very easily could. That really would be a game changer with huge potential.
If it would be a game changer, regular people would already use this in their homes. This is not new technology nor ground breaking. To answer your question…Solar output is way worse in winter, when you actually need the heat. Usually by a factor of 10 worse. In practical terms this means that they couldn’t get enough PV panels on the roof for heating in the winter months.
@@AttilaTheHun333333 given the roof-space for panels, even in winter I recon that church could generate ~7kW / hour, or more (based on my 8x panels generating 200-500w / hour in winter, and appearing to have space for 4x30 panels, compared to my 2x4).
Might not be enough to fully cover the needs of the heaters - but it would certainly cover a chunk... especially if paired with a storage battery.
@@logicalChimp
That’s very optimistic. My 8kw peak setup go as low as 200 Watts on winter days.
@@logicalChimp - yup. The modelling for that church shows that in winter sun the roof would generate enough to run the heaters at a lower setting. And yes, for a lot of churches with infrequent use, a battery makes sense - charge up off the solar and use that for the times you need heat.
Of course heating just when and where you want the heat, when that reduce the amount of heating required to a small fraction of heating up the entire building can save a lot of energy. In most cases you want to keep a reasonable temperature, constantly, or at least for prolonged periods of time. While very a cost efficient way to provide thermal comfort temporarily and locally, with little energy, infrared heating with resistive heaters shouldn't be mistaken for a generally energy efficient way to provide heat, it is just not that.
A lot of advantages in that specific type of scenario, and similar situations. Instant heat radiation, localized, and also cheap, robust and compact equipment, without moving parts, are readily available. The "COP" being 1 isn't a huge drawback when you just need to achieve thermal comfort in a part of a huge stone building for fully clothed people a few hours a week, and only part of the year.
Fantastic idea