this will be because of gay men being stereotyped in sexual predatory ways, while gay (usually fem) women are stereotyped as just really good friends or confused
I think I’ve heard why that is is because sapphic/wlw relationships are considered more “acceptable” or “marketable”. Which, don’t get me wrong, is such a wrong point of view to have. MLM relationships/characters deserve to be on screen, but apparently the reason we don’t see many is because they’re apparently hated on more. Which sucks. Not only is it homophobic, it’s also pretty misogynistic when you consider that lesbians(or girlxgirl) are also so over-sexualizado by men.
Agreed I would love the show anyway but him and troys relationship being a fairly prominent plot line is amazing and the fact that troys dad isn't homophobic is great too. I just love how it doesn't make a huge deal out of that theyre gay but just acts like its any other straight relationship.
Yes, I love Benson and realizing he is one of the only black gay characters in cartoons I know about made it bittersweet in both seeing that and realizing that. My blackness, queerness, don't intersect much in these media especially as a man. It's sad but with more representation coming every day I hope to be able to have several more examples than Benson in a few years.
The owl house rep is super explicit, and a lot more recently. There's an f/f couple, and f/nb couple (and the nb character isn't a lizard or smth) and one character has two dads
Also Ed mentioned he had a date in Through the looking Glass Ruins, who he used they/them pronouns for And in Understanding Willow Boscha said something like “Is there a ghost in photos class? Are *they* cute?” And on the fridge in Yesterday’s Lie had a Bisexual flag on it (Cute little detail that Luz is out to Camilla and she accepts her! :3) Dana mentioned she wanted a show where the conflicts weren’t at about sexuality and accepting yourself for who you are, and she did an amazing job with that! Okay I’m done with my rant
I think Lumity on The Owl House is a special milestone because it does something that's pretty rare even with het romances *SPOILERS* We don't wait til the very end to have the characters declare their love for each other. They do that halfway through the second season, so now we can see their relationship have its ups and downs rather than leave it to the imagination with a simple "Happily Ever After."
It's kinda wild that Disney, with their history of lackluster representation, now have a video clip of Luz and Amity asking each other out on UA-cam with the couple's ship name (Lumity) as the title. Now I'm looking forward to the day when two queer characters can just be together in a kids' show's first episode instead of having to ease people into the idea. Also, as much as I like that recent inclusions of gay dads in these cartoons has been relatively uncontroversial (She-Ra, DuckTales, The Owl House), more young characters like Benson (from Kipo) that kids can actually relate to need to happen. Anyhow, my *eyeballs* and earballs enjoyed this video, and my brain picked up some interesting things I didn't know about. Thanks!
Their live action shows have a lot of queer representation but they’re more for teens than kids. For example, Andi Mack has the character of Jonah, who is surprisingly good representation. And Marvel has a lot of queer characters, notably Karolina and Nico from the Runaways. We definitely need more representation in kids media, but we’re definitely advancing.
@@azsazazsa You've got examples like Owl House which went against what Disney really wanted, and then you've got examples like Runaways and some of those other teen media, but it should also be recognized that even and especially in Marvel as well as Disney as a whole the MAINSTREAM movies and shows are extremely lackluster in representation, anything for kids or adults that they shove advertising in your face for doesn't seem to have any representation whatsoever, unless you count some of the movies and remakes with implicitly gay coded characters that the writers push (offscreen of course) to be considered gay characters. Great that they've got some, but it can't be forgotten that those are not the big titles shoved in your face. Either everyone (or I'm just really alone in this) saw Carol and Maria as romantic, but of course even though Brie Larson herself hinted at that being her canon it was never really said in the movie.
@@elizabethcabbage9817 I guess I never realized the advertising thing. Besides the owl house, I've never just stumbled upon a show from Disney that happened to have queer rep, because they don't advertise them nearly as much as their other shows. And even then, I found out about TOH not from a Disney ad, but a fan article. And I think i have only ever gotten one ad from Disney about it. This is after being in the fandom for almost a year, and finding the article a couple months before that.
Honestly glad that Lumity became canon mid-season, not just in its finale. Truly a big milestone for children's media. Now we just need trans specific stories to educate and represent children.
Also more male gay rep in cartoons! All the big LGBT+ cartoons (SU, Sheera, Owl house, etc) have lesbian and nonbinary rep, but they're lacking in male gay and binary trans representation
thank you for making this! I have been talking about specifically Legend of Korra's importance in LGBTQ+ in cartoons specifically since it came on Netflix because people immediately criticized it for the "poor" set up of Korrasami and I've heard multiple times that it is queerbaiting which really bothers me because of the significance it had for LGBTQ+ representation in cartoons (especially if you consider the fact that the finale aired in December 2014 and gay marriage was not legalized in all 50 states until June 2015) I remember watching the finale when it came out and having the most amazing feeling when they made Korrasami cannon, people dont realize how big a deal this was at the time, there were so many reaction videos, people legitimately crying because of how big it was to see this sliver of representation and people now
Thank you for watching! It's amazing to think about how much things have changed since then! It's only been seven years, but I think people forget that 2014 was a VERY different time when it came to mainstream queer representation on screen. I used to be a little disappointed with how Korrasami was set up because it had to be confirmed over Tumblr and through the comics, but when I learned about what limitations Nickelodeon imposed on the showrunners (and just what a rarity it was), I'm shocked it happened at all. Watching it without remembering all that can make people forget that it really was a leap forward.
'phobes when the Korra finale aired: "This is forced and came out of nowhere." Me: "I was literally posting screenshots of them awkwardly flirting just a few weeks ago, but okay."
Personally, I felt Korrasami had *just enough* setup where them being a couple and them being friends felt like equally valid outcomes. At least it cracked open the floodgates for things like Steven Universe and She-Ra.
I always say, Without Legend of Korra you don't get Steven Universe Rupphire wedding. Without Steven Universe, you don't get Catra & Adora in She-Ra and Benson & Troy in Kipo (THEY ACTUALLY SAID THE WORD!!!) And without all of these shows, You don't get The Owl House & Lumity!!!
The protagonist on Nickelodeon's The Astronauts has two moms and it's treated as completely normal. Other than that, it's the best live action Nick show in years and I can't recommend it enough!
Although it doesn’t come up in the show itself, I heard that Kipo herself is Bi, but isn’t mentioned because they had the mega Jaguar storyline, which could be seen as a “accepting yourself for who you are” message.
I really wish OK KO had gotten big because it had some of my absolute favorite queer rep in it. Three queer couples, if I remember correctly and two were main characters! I hope that the next frontier for queerness in animation is MLM, because aside from OK KO & Kipo... It seems like it's still considered too taboo. Probably relating to how you talked about how the 80's after-school specials were gendered. Men being more sexualized, women being sanitized. Still need to work on trans, NB & other queer rep tho, but I'm looking forward to Deadendia when it premieres on Netflix. The protag is trans masc and MLM! Anyway, a very cool video on a subject I love. Thank you
We haven't seen OK KO, but it's definitely on the watchlist now! We hope that we'll see more representation for queer men in animation soon - in hindsight, it would've been good to touch on it. About Deadendia: it's exciting to see graphic novels/webcomics getting on the mainstage, especially since they tend to feature more queer rep and diverse narratives than other media.
YESS YESSS YESSS!!! im really late to this video but i was gonna drop into the comments to spread the OK KO agenda because i think it's such a delight of a show and an underrated gem, im so glad to see someone beat me to it by two years lol
can someone plz explain the eyeball thing to me? I just finished the vid and I thought there would be something abt it in there but there isn’t (at least I didn’t see it)
You left out Nickelodeon actively censoring Korra. The ending was supposed to have Korra and Asami kiss, and their relationship in the prior seasons was originally written to actually be there. Then you incorrectly attributed the risk to Nickelodeon, who did everything in its power to prevent KorrAsami short of canceling the show and burning the cels.
I saw a post on Twitter that linked to a Tumblr post where the creators of the show mentioned that Nick gave them their blessing to do it, and the relationship was something that came up later for them in the series, though I dont know how true that is.
@@SmartSmears Originally the storyboard wasn't what happened. It was less obvious. But the creator's decided to change the scene to make it more romantic, and Nick was ok but wouldn't allow an explicit kiss.
It's slightly coded rather than "direct", but Season 2 of Infinity Train is notable for having the most blatant portrayal of the nonbinary journey I've seen on screen, animated or otherwise.
There's so little mlm representation in cartoons that I can't even name a single one on top of my head, especially compared to wlw representation. I've always wondered why this was.
Tbh same. All I could remember cartoon mlm representation without searching, is from the Loud House and MLP Equestria Girls (tbf I just discovered this one recently so it's still fresh in my mind)
@sewer~rat Also the perception that mlm relationships are inherently/overtly sexual and therefore inappropriate for children to see is still kicking around; there's also hold over from the view that gay men are somehow predatory. This might also lead to hiring practices, where if you present masculinely and are queer, you might have difficulty working as a children's media creator; I don't know the extent of masculine presenting queer creators in children's media, only that the few presented here are not that.
@@perchy22 There's also the fact that most of the creators pushing the boundaries. . . . . . . . . . . .are also women. I think that does play a part because I would understand having a better understanding of your own gender than opposite genders. If more male queer creators had a place in the animated space I feel like there would be that same level of enthusiasm and pushing from their own experience. I say this because even with hetero romances, some creators (including Japanese ones if you've heard of stuff like Naruto or Sword Art Online), it's VERY obvious when a story's female love interests are written by men.
My eyeballs have come and I am watching. . . . Also as a queer male artist who primarily makes queer scifi or historical works, this video is some GOOD STUFF.
@@nightowlsduo Well, thank you! It's sad I won't be able to post most of it till the end of the next academic semester, but I'm very excited to show something that is more complete then just an illustration or too. ^^
Also, I personally dislike it when people say there's "subtextual" representation in children's media because subtext is not easy to pick up on as a child. Children more often than not don't even know what they should be looking for in the "subtext", and if they don't know what they are looking for then they can't pick up on it. I mean when I was 11 and watching the Legend Of Korra, I didn't realise Asami and Korra were queer and in a relationship, because I did not know that that could exist because I hadn't been exposed to queerness in media before and lived in a conservative household - for me, it was just the two friends finally surviving everything. This is why queer rep in children's media is vital. Young people shouldn't have to look to other forms of media such as tiktok just to find themselves represented, they should be able to see themselves in the stories they have been exposed to since the beginning.
I agree back when i was small, i remember i couldn't be able to pick up or know that the characters in Steven Universe are gay because it was pretty subtle for my baby brain, also i didnt know what queer means, me back then was confusued over what gender is Ruby to be in love with Sapphire:'). But im still glad that i was born in the day where LGBTQIA representations get more attention and that it IS important for kids. Besides, watching queer characters arent gonna make kids queer, it just make their life easier:)
Another piece to it worth making a note of when going across these various pieces of media from a range of time is the representation that has been able to get through, which is to say, primarily a lot of lesbian/wlw rep. You made a point earlier of how, in these After School Specials, there’s a notable difference in how the gay men and the gay women’s stories are portrayed. Wlw are seen as more palatable to a general audience, so when a creator fights to get any bit of what rep they want, this is the area that’s been easier to achieve in and it’s clearly related to the aforementioned attitudes
This is probably one of my favorite video essays of all time. As a kid who grew up watching shows such as Steven Universe and Adventure Time, it was a bit awkward talking about LGBTQ+. I wasn’t homophobic or anything, but it was a strange new situation for me. I barely knew anything about it and soon enough became familiar enough with it to realize, “Oh wait, thats me.” I was really happy towards the end of the video when you said it was about normalizing LGBT in the media. Sure youth have internet and social media, but when I was younger all I had was tv and an ipod. Kids still watch TV and on top of that, many kids who don’t, have netflix and disney+.
I was so sick and tired of people invalidating and terrorising my feelings as a kid back then. I remember going to a Christian school in Australia when the gay rights legislation was coming out and hearing my friends say some really terrible things about gay people. Made me feel like a sexual deviant or something.
here’s some more kids shows with explicit queer rep that weren’t mentioned, but i personally love: • kipo and the age of wonderbeasts- netflix: has a canonically gay main character (not the title character, but still a main character) who is black. he is the first character in any western children’s animation to ever say the word “gay”. he is also given a love interest (who is mexican and asian) that is explored throughout the whole series. a non-binary character is also featured as well! • the hollow- netflix: the main character is gay, and is the second western children’s animated series to ever say the word “gay”. it is hinted at in the first season, and in the second season it is revealed that he is openly gay. another main character also has two dads. unfortunately this series was canceled before any romance could be explored. • big shot- disney+: features a sapphic main character who crushes on another girl. it’s really sweet and one of the girls writes a song to express her feelings for the other and the two end up kissing (disney’s first live action kiss with a main character!) and they end up dating. • diary of a future president- disney+: the main character’s brother realizes about half way through the season that he is gay and has a crush on one of his friends. there is also tons of casual rep: a sapphic side character who struggles with coming out to her homophobic family, a coworker of the main character’s parents having a husband, a gay barber that talks about having a husband, a character with two dads, and the boss of the parents being played by a trans actress! (please check this one out the lgbtq storyline is really well done and the second season comes out tomorrow!) update: the second season of diary of a future president came out yesterday and without spoiling anything it’s very gay please go watch
Ever watched The Astronauts? That show literally starts with the protagonist and her two moms! And it's actually a pretty good show overall! Here's to better live action kids shows!
Yknow watching this I remembered Kipo and the Wonderbeasts, and the lack of people discussing it is making me question whether or not they were a kid’s show now
@@ashleybyrd2015 Ikr, they literally had a gay character introduced AND come out in season one and then gave him a male love interest in season 3. Like he wasn’t the title character sure but he’s literally one of the main trio! Maybe Wolf’s whole deal was more memorable, I guess I’d understand that...
@@nightowlsduo Oh!! I hope you enjoy it when you see it! I might have overhyped it a bit since it’s been awhile since I’ve seen it personally, but it was really cool casual rep imo!!
Lord Oculon sends its regards. Also this was fantastic and as a parent of young children I am always on the lookout for wholesome queer representation in early childhood media.
This was an awesome watch. Looking forward to following this channel. I do think there is an interesting and notable blind spot in "kids" cartoons specifically. "Kid's" cartoons tend to centralize wlw relationships but mlm relationships still largely remain delegated to the background (except for RARE cases like Kibo). Even in the cartoons like Steven Universe, She-Ra, and Owl House gay men are delegated to background characters, the gay dad tropes, or just confirmed off-screen. I'm in my mid 20s now and as a gay man still struggle to find representation in these shows lauded for their representation. They still deserve the praise, don't get me wrong, but I find it more interesting than anything that they just don't share the same gusto towards for representing mlm relationships in cartoons the same way. People shout about the representation which is true and I'm sat here still waiting. Like I am pretty confident at this point beyond the gay dads in Owl House, I'm not going to get anything meaningful in terms of representing me. It just makes me feel like gay men are still deemed too "inherently adult and sexual" even by some of these queer creators. And if I'm just not looking in the right place, by all means please let me know. I understand it's much more prevalent in live-action content but that's not what I'm looking for nor talking about.
Thanks so much for watching, we really appreciate it! As for the blindspot about queer men you mentioned, it's definitely something worth noting. You're right about broadcasters/streaming networks/etc. potentially finding it more "inherently adult or sexual" to centralize queer men's relationships. The pool of queer characters in children's animation is also too small as it is. There isn't a lot of children's media centering on queer characters, so hopefully, if there were more, we'd see more queer men as well. In animation, there's been this rising tide of queer lady showrunners having the opportunity to create and run their own stories, like Dana Terrace and The Owl House. (Rebecca Sugar is non-binary and Noelle Stevenson is bigender, but at the time that they pushed for and secured Steven Universe and She-Ra respectively, both were very public queer women figures in the industry --- even if that public label didn't actually match up with who they are). People with the experiences of queer women end up creating works that center on queer women characters, and those creators are having a rising moment in the industry right now. I also would recommend checking out this database from Insider on queer characters in cartoons. It came out while we were editing the video, so we weren't able to talk about it, but it goes over interesting trends and that gap in gender representation for queer characters: www.insider.com/lgbtq-cartoon-characters-kids-database-2021-06?page=see-the-data Basically, there's no short answer to all of this, but it's good to keep in mind. Hopefully, as more media comes out, we'll have more examples of queer male characters that are accessible for young people!
Yeah, as night owls mentioned, there's the obvious hiring problem that most of the creators pushing the boundaries. . . . . . . . . . . .are also women. I think that *does* play a part because I would understand having a better understanding of your own gender than opposite genders. If more male queer creators had a place in the animated space I feel like there would be that same level of enthusiasm and pushing from their own experience. As in, I feel like I could trust someone like Dana Terrace to write a story of characters from the female growing queer perspective, but I don't know how well any on that staff would be accustomed to a male journey without that personal influence. I say this because even with hetero romances, some creators (including Japanese ones if you've heard of stuff like Naruto, Fairy Tail or Sword Art Online), it's VERY obvious when a story's female love interests are written by men.
This is a really good video! I've always felt like cartoons were a microcosm of how queerness is done/is allowed to be done in mainstream-ish media. I've been plotting out my own (written) essay on this for a while now just for kicks, and this video was actually really informative to me as someone who's already familiar with a lot of the subject matter. I didn't even know about Postcards from Buster until now! Representation matters, not in the least because it's been thirteen months since Season 5 of She-ra and I can still feel the serotonin.
Ahhh thank you so much for the praise! We hope your essay goes well! Children's TV is definitely a sort of barometer for judging what society's feeling OK about. And yeah, that Postcards from Buster thing is wild --- fun fact: when the U.S. education secretary condemned the episode, it was only a couple of days after George W. Bush's 2nd inauguration. It was literally her first week on the job.
The owl house really sticks out to me, just because the relationships are realistic, it took more than a season for the main character to develop feeling for another character, and the blushing, the jumpiness, the awkardness of the relationship between the two main girls is quite realistic, and easy to relate to. It's also so cool to see these two girls, with one of them being the main character, openly kissing, hugging, blushing, holding hands, and calling eachother girlfriends on childrens television. It makes me so happy to see this open representation in any media, especially kids.
This is a greatly done essay. I can just suggest you recording your takes when you talk on camera be filmed with better face-front illumination, in a place with less flatness that creates reverberating resonance, or with a mike that catches less of it, and more your voice directly. And wish you best luck with your promising channel.
Thank you for the feedback! This is really helpful to know, we're definitely hoping to improve how we film these in the future. (also, thank you for watching!)
This is a great video! Super informative and well put together! I'm definitely going to check out more of your videos after watching this! I found it particularly interesting how so much of the representation in children's media is queer women, and how queer men are still seen as predatory, and how we can see the roots of that as far back as after school specials. I'm hopeful that that's changing. High School Musical: The Musical: The Series which just finished its second season on Disney+ and has had a canon romance between two boy characters, Seb and Carlos, since halfway through the first season. The series creator and showrunner, Tim Federle is openly gay and has been fighting a similar fight as Dana Terrace has with the Owl House, and in the fifth episode of season two we got a kiss! I think it's pretty amazing to see this representation in HSMTMTS in particular, not only because the HSM franchise is so widely beloved, but also because I still remember when Kenny Ortega wanted to make Ryan gay in the HSM movies and Disney wouldn't let him, and even forced him to put Ryan and Kelsey together in the 3rd movie to counteract how queer coded Ryan was.
I completely get where you're from! Love HSMTMTS and Kenny Ortega's recent show Julie and the Phantoms! Had to cut it out of the script for time, but give me fun queer rep and a great soundtrack any day of the week.
Please people watch Kipo, it has everything: -black rep -mlm rep -great music -the FUNKYEST visuals -great concepts and world building -great storyline overall And it's super underrated So please, go watch Kipo
Night owls can be spotted by the glow of their eyeballs. That was a good video, and I thank you for highlighting some of the male characters as well. They often get overlooked in the discourse.
Only a little ways in and this is a great video! I remember when the Postcards from Buster episode blew up. It continues to frustrate me that loving queer representation is so controversial to this day. Obligatory eyeball reference
I feel like lgbt representation in animation is bad. not because it's poorly written, but due to limitations and boundaries queer writers face in front of executive and corporate interests. usually gay characters are incorporated in stories in either a nuanced or an extreme out of nowhere reveal that builded up from nothing. honestly, its hard to deny that lgbt representation is just seen as "woke" politics to gain "woke" points. however queer writers and those in pre production teams, producers. fight everyday to get at least a tiny bit of representation out there. and they do so with the limited resources they can. what you get at the end of the day when these shows and movies are released is a: gay media representation that doesn't make our straight, conservative, and religious audiences uncomfortable. Idk but we should probably give queer writers a break since they are doing the best they can to push for representation.
It's not just representation for kids who know that their identity isn't cis, straight, and 'normal,' it's the indication that there are *other options* to kids who don't know. I think that I had heard of being gay before, but I had never seen any bisexual people in any media before I was in high school, and I felt a lot of internal pressure to always be crushing on some boy my whole life. It wasn't until a girl expressed interest in me that it even occurred to me that it was an option to like girls, and without anyone telling me, it would have taken several more years than it already did to figure out that I didn't just like boys. When I look back to high school, there were at least 4 girls I was crushing on.... And I thought I was just jealous of their appearance/personality//other traits I liked. I graduated high school in 2016.
Anyone notice the lack of gay male characters and protagonists in children’s animation. The most popular shows are focused mostly on lesbian relationships. I’m curious to know why that’s the case. Are lesbians less threatening to the status quo than gay men/boys.
I want to mention Craig of the Creek as well. It has multiple on screen sapphic relationships, as well as a bunch of other canon gay characters. There are also multiple non-binary characters and an agender character. Also, just recently, a canon sapphic relationship began with a main character. Pls watch if you havent, the show has excellent representation and is also just really cute
Actually the Korra finale did air on cable TV. Korra got pulled off air in the middle of season 3 and ran online only through the season 3 finale and halfway into season 4. However by mid season 4 it was available on both cable and online viewing. Nickelodeon majorly screwed over the show through its constant last minute changes, but I do at least feel obligated to give credit where it is due.
But the reason that was the finale was because nickelodeon didn't allow that so they didn't want to go by Nick's rules and made that the finale throwing a little jab at nick and continued the legend of korra story in comics where they could write it more like they wanted
@@kyleslayer0217 In Bryan Konietzko's famous korrasami post he literally says, "We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced." So, essentially the network told them that they could make the final korrasami scene as romantic as possible, so long as they didn't actually show them kiss.
I remember exactly when this happened, they said the views were down or something so it would be online and the first episode online was when the Earth Queen was asphyxiated on screen and I was thinking holy moly ok it wasn't because of views it was because they killed someone right on screen which had never fully happened in Avatar before. (usually there's some spirit magic or something involved, you never see death like that in the previous series)
This is why I enjoy LGBT media so much. My parents were ones who made us stop watching Buster’s Postcards. I am so hopeful that some kids will be able to see they can have queer love too.
Ugh I remember watching those after school specials awfully intently in my youth 😅 great essay! It was real interesting to see the whole history laid out. So glad you've landed in the eyeballs clutches 👁💖
I remember growing up and there being no shows that represented people like me, i thought we simply didn't exist. That was less than 15 years ago, today feels like a different world. One I wish I grew up in tbh
Since this was posted the owl house has had A TON of great queer rep. Lesbian, whatever eda is, nonbinary, bi, etc and it really makes a difference. But it isn’t all good because Disney is canceling it after the really short season 3 no matter how hard dana fights. - someone whose been in the toh fandom since season one was airing.
I got your video recommended today and it got me thinking.... has there been any LGBTQ+ Rep during my childhood? (I am from Germany). And I remembered the movies "wilde Hühner", it is about a clique of girls whom grow up and deal with puperty, love, and try to safe their pet-chickens (Hühner=chickens). In the movies was a girl who is a lesbian and she has her own arc of coming out and losing and winning friends and there are also on screen kisses between the two girls and, to my knowledge, it was never an issue. No censorship, no parents who were like "OMG y child is not allowed to see something like that" or angry Facebook posts... just.. acceptence i guess. So it is kind of weird to see how is was and kind of still is in other parts of the world or back in the day. Thank you for talking about the topic and showing the development over the years :)
"Looking at the last two seasons you may find you were looking through it from a heterosexual lens" I mean I know this was directed at the heterosexual audience but my mother could tell you I was ranting about every day when I saw more episodes about how I shipped Korrasami until the very end when it was sorta confirmed in the show.
I appreciate the fact that you talk out how TLoK was a big step for queer rep in children's media. Lately it feels like people dismiss it for "just having them hold hands", when like, it was nearly cancelled, it wasn't even aired on tv, you had to go to a website to watch the final episodes back when the only ones really doing online stuff was Netflix.
So the man of honor at my wedding has been one of my best friends since high school and I’m not even kidding, me and a couple of my friends accidentally found out that he was gay because we stumbled upon porn in his room. He didn’t come out until after we graduated high school a couple years later so we never told him about it until way afterwards because we didn’t want to out him lol.
MLP had some lesbian reresentation near the end of the show with Lyra and Bon Bon. I was super excited and I'm aromantic. Also Scootaloo's aunts as well.
yes and im pretty sure applejack and rainbow were canon in fim and in mlpeg, the people who work on the show said they enjoy rarity and aj's moments and thought they fought like a couple in rollercoaster of friendship :0
Thanks Thoughtslime and good job Night Owls. I definitely felt this whole thing growing up as someone born in '83 and didn't feel/understand that coming out was an option because of this type of media.
Thank you for watching! We really appreciate hearing from people slightly older than us because we purposely tried to find older examples of queer representation and how it affected people, even though we didn't watch those during our childhood.
the movie Inside Out could (possibly) reflect gender identity. Just a quick note if you haven't watched Inside Out this is gonna sound kinda weird. some people noticed that the emotions in Riley's brain are both male and female, even though both her mother and father have their emotions only as their gender assigned at birth. Riley might be confused about her gender, even if it's pretty indirect I think it might be possible.
I'll mirror the majority of recent comments. 1) Thank you for the examination of queer representation in children's media 2) For the algorithm. 3) For the eyeballs.
Great video. Really interesting and informative. Thank you. We can only hope that The Owl House becomes the norm. Lumity being explicitly canon girlfriends, before the last episode of the series, is a big step forward.
Lord Occulon sends its greetings but is sad that you did not mention Benson from Kipo and the age of Wonderbeasts. It is an unfortunate fact that female queer representation is right now prefert because it seems less threatening.
What a lovely video. Great explanation of the topic, organized in a way that the progress of representation was both understandable and entertaining. Plus it reminded me I need to check out the Owl House! I love Dana's tweets too, what a legend. Outlast your enemies, bring your queer vision to the eyes of your audience!
More recently she decided to really give it to Disney funding Republicans and their "Don't Say Gay" bill by raising over $75,000 during a charity stream.
At a young age my mom kept me away from things that didn’t seem feminine in her eyes because, at a very young age I found a interest in females as I was about 6 years old as a 6 year old I didn’t know what gay meant or was so I had told my mother about the way I felt at 6 I liked comic books action figures and male clothing, about a week after I told her about it I remember her throwing away my comic books and action figures and getting me new clothing and now that I am older I know and understand why she did it know either way after that she did other stuff to make me act more Female as making me have more female friends and taking me out of football, even though it never changed my sexuality, as she complains about same gender romances on children television to me and saying “that’s what is making children gay” as about a month ago I told her as I still had feelings for female she kept on asking how do I know and why as the reasons why were private I just told her that that’s how I felt for a while as she still doesn’t believe that I am my sexuality and still try’s to things to make me like males as she is trying to make me invite males in my grade or a grade above me to come over and hang out, which kind of makes me fell uncomfortable do to the point she tried to make me do multiple times as I refuse to do still,and as she said to me is it because of what she let me watch on tv which is just not the case.I’m sorry about making a whole life story about this all I’m trying to say is that don’t force other sexualities on you’re kids
Been needing this. It's seemed as though there isnt a lot of discussion about queer representation outside of explicitly queer or leftist spaces, so hearing this makes me feel a little less crazy.
I know it's not explicit in the shows but Perfuma in She-Ra is canonically trans, and Luz from the owl house is literally wearing the non-binary flag colors (I don't thing her gender has been confirmed but the fact that she looks like the flag and was created by queer person makes me believe Luz has to be non-binary)
This was a really nicely executed overview. I loved that you went back to the early, tentative steps. Also, I'd never heard of Danger & Eggs, so definitely keen to give that a look. Having a quick glance over the comments, I can see there might be room for a follow-up, which I'd be interested in seeing. Well produced, well-delivered and informed video essay. Keep up the good work!
eyeballs, but i also had it recommended on the side surprisingly. i really loved this! i wish i was more interested in kids shows bc the queer rep tends to be so much more happy and accepting and not focused on the negatives of navigating the world as a queer person. ofc ik life as a queer person isnt easy, but im tired of the low-level trauma p*rn the gets broadcast in non-childrens shows and movies, ESPECIALLY when it comes to trans and enby folx. i feel starved of transmasc rep that doesnt focus on transition and abuse from family, ik they are basically making it for cishets (and gotta make sure they get that profit off of palatable queer folx stories) to help with acceptance/etc, but its still a very binary and specific story thats always told. absolutely sick and tired of it.
I’m here to point out and shout out Cyrus Goodman, one of the first characters in children’s media to use the modern definition of gay to come out. Andi Mack is a gem within the Disney Channel, I’ll miss it dearly. It also had a queer endgame that wasn’t just his first crush. Sure, it was just a handhold, but it was a hella emotion romantic hand holding.
Here from the eyeball zone too, I Love the style of your work, and I'm gonna go watch all your stuff while I work now. One thing this is missing here though, the lack of representation and the negative representation being good enough if no one gets hurt too badly, didn't happen in a vacuum. There used to be media laws requiring horrific ends to characters who weren't straight and cis. You've shown the process of coming out of that period very well, but without referencing that context. I dunno of you had a good reason, but it feels off to me not to mention it. Cheers, keep being awesome!
There’s also the Love God and Sheriff Blubs and Deputy Durly in Gravity Falls. Even if Alex had to be censored on his work so much I died laughing when Blubs and Durly shot that cannon so at the very least I’m glad we got that
So my university, UCSB, has a really cool program where guests who worked to develop different shows and video games, and one of the guests was one of the head writers for Arthur, Postcards from Buster, Octonaughts, and Hilda. She brought up the reaction to the Postcards from Buster episode and being so mad about it, and I mentioned that I was queer and wanted to make my own show where most of the main characters were queer, she loved the idea and basically begged me to do it.
It shouldn't escape anyone's notice that the overwhelming majority of queer relationships depicted in children's media are between two women.
Or at best femme coded characters.
Thank you, I have notice that a lot.
yes!! it needs to be said! as a sapphic, it's great to see myself on screen, but mlm representation is just as important!!
this will be because of gay men being stereotyped in sexual predatory ways, while gay (usually fem) women are stereotyped as just really good friends or confused
I think I’ve heard why that is is because sapphic/wlw relationships are considered more “acceptable” or “marketable”. Which, don’t get me wrong, is such a wrong point of view to have. MLM relationships/characters deserve to be on screen, but apparently the reason we don’t see many is because they’re apparently hated on more. Which sucks. Not only is it homophobic, it’s also pretty misogynistic when you consider that lesbians(or girlxgirl) are also so over-sexualizado by men.
Dana: "the old leadership fought us but the new leadership is on board"
I think Dana killed some Disney executives. good for her.
YESS GO DANA #girlboss
GO DANA
GO DANA
F(quack)ck YASS🌈💖💙💛✨✨
I mean... Would it not be a bad thing if she did though 😂🤣
Since queer male characters don't get the same representation, I want to point out Bensen, the male lead in Kipo and the age of the wonderbeasts.
Agreed I would love the show anyway but him and troys relationship being a fairly prominent plot line is amazing and the fact that troys dad isn't homophobic is great too. I just love how it doesn't make a huge deal out of that theyre gay but just acts like its any other straight relationship.
Kipo is generally so good and so underrated, please watch it
and bow's dads from she-ra!
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Yes, I love Benson and realizing he is one of the only black gay characters in cartoons I know about made it bittersweet in both seeing that and realizing that. My blackness, queerness, don't intersect much in these media especially as a man. It's sad but with more representation coming every day I hope to be able to have several more examples than Benson in a few years.
The owl house rep is super explicit, and a lot more recently. There's an f/f couple, and f/nb couple (and the nb character isn't a lizard or smth) and one character has two dads
this ^^^ like no shade to she-ra but it is a little,,,meh that the one non binary character just happens to be a shapeshifter
@@morgandy3162 im nonbinary and, lemme tell ya, i wish i could shapeshift
raeda
Also Ed mentioned he had a date in Through the looking Glass Ruins, who he used they/them pronouns for
And in Understanding Willow Boscha said something like “Is there a ghost in photos class? Are *they* cute?”
And on the fridge in Yesterday’s Lie had a Bisexual flag on it (Cute little detail that Luz is out to Camilla and she accepts her! :3)
Dana mentioned she wanted a show where the conflicts weren’t at about sexuality and accepting yourself for who you are, and she did an amazing job with that!
Okay I’m done with my rant
@@safir2241 same
Disney: you can have little a representation. As a treat.
Can't wait for Disney's ninth "first" gay character! 🤞🏾
Not if your a gay dude, though. You get background dads at best.
The Owl House: You never said how big that treat can be...
@@nightowlsduo lmaoo
@@aidanklobuchar1798 lol
I think Lumity on The Owl House is a special milestone because it does something that's pretty rare even with het romances
*SPOILERS*
We don't wait til the very end to have the characters declare their love for each other. They do that halfway through the second season, so now we can see their relationship have its ups and downs rather than leave it to the imagination with a simple "Happily Ever After."
It really does! We always love being able to watch a relationship grow as opposed to just getting a finale kiss and then BOOM end screen
The owl house also has a character that use they/them Pronouns
@@lunarthesrimp9662 wait? Really?! Who?? I need to know!!!
@@caramelwinged2536 raine whispers is their name. i love them sm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's kinda wild that Disney, with their history of lackluster representation, now have a video clip of Luz and Amity asking each other out on UA-cam with the couple's ship name (Lumity) as the title. Now I'm looking forward to the day when two queer characters can just be together in a kids' show's first episode instead of having to ease people into the idea.
Also, as much as I like that recent inclusions of gay dads in these cartoons has been relatively uncontroversial (She-Ra, DuckTales, The Owl House), more young characters like Benson (from Kipo) that kids can actually relate to need to happen.
Anyhow, my *eyeballs* and earballs enjoyed this video, and my brain picked up some interesting things I didn't know about. Thanks!
Their live action shows have a lot of queer representation but they’re more for teens than kids. For example, Andi Mack has the character of Jonah, who is surprisingly good representation. And Marvel has a lot of queer characters, notably Karolina and Nico from the Runaways. We definitely need more representation in kids media, but we’re definitely advancing.
hun, its *luzity*
( i know its lumiyy, the point is that disney first posted it this way)
Remember luzity?
@@azsazazsa You've got examples like Owl House which went against what Disney really wanted, and then you've got examples like Runaways and some of those other teen media, but it should also be recognized that even and especially in Marvel as well as Disney as a whole the MAINSTREAM movies and shows are extremely lackluster in representation, anything for kids or adults that they shove advertising in your face for doesn't seem to have any representation whatsoever, unless you count some of the movies and remakes with implicitly gay coded characters that the writers push (offscreen of course) to be considered gay characters. Great that they've got some, but it can't be forgotten that those are not the big titles shoved in your face. Either everyone (or I'm just really alone in this) saw Carol and Maria as romantic, but of course even though Brie Larson herself hinted at that being her canon it was never really said in the movie.
@@elizabethcabbage9817 I guess I never realized the advertising thing. Besides the owl house, I've never just stumbled upon a show from Disney that happened to have queer rep, because they don't advertise them nearly as much as their other shows. And even then, I found out about TOH not from a Disney ad, but a fan article. And I think i have only ever gotten one ad from Disney about it. This is after being in the fandom for almost a year, and finding the article a couple months before that.
Honestly glad that Lumity became canon mid-season, not just in its finale. Truly a big milestone for children's media. Now we just need trans specific stories to educate and represent children.
On Webtoons, there's a (short) comic called "Shenanigans&Co" that I would recommend expressly for that purpose.
Also more male gay rep in cartoons! All the big LGBT+ cartoons (SU, Sheera, Owl house, etc) have lesbian and nonbinary rep, but they're lacking in male gay and binary trans representation
Don't be so quick to praise the mouse. Sure, Disney is trying to appear more inclusive now, but internally not much has changed.
Dead End on Netflix has a trans main character!
@@pineapplelolipop I BINGED IT LAST MONTH AND I WANT MOREEEEEEEE
thank you for making this! I have been talking about specifically Legend of Korra's importance in LGBTQ+ in cartoons specifically since it came on Netflix because people immediately criticized it for the "poor" set up of Korrasami and I've heard multiple times that it is queerbaiting which really bothers me because of the significance it had for LGBTQ+ representation in cartoons (especially if you consider the fact that the finale aired in December 2014 and gay marriage was not legalized in all 50 states until June 2015) I remember watching the finale when it came out and having the most amazing feeling when they made Korrasami cannon, people dont realize how big a deal this was at the time, there were so many reaction videos, people legitimately crying because of how big it was to see this sliver of representation and people now
Thank you for watching! It's amazing to think about how much things have changed since then! It's only been seven years, but I think people forget that 2014 was a VERY different time when it came to mainstream queer representation on screen. I used to be a little disappointed with how Korrasami was set up because it had to be confirmed over Tumblr and through the comics, but when I learned about what limitations Nickelodeon imposed on the showrunners (and just what a rarity it was), I'm shocked it happened at all. Watching it without remembering all that can make people forget that it really was a leap forward.
'phobes when the Korra finale aired:
"This is forced and came out of nowhere."
Me:
"I was literally posting screenshots of them awkwardly flirting just a few weeks ago, but okay."
Personally, I felt Korrasami had *just enough* setup where them being a couple and them being friends felt like equally valid outcomes. At least it cracked open the floodgates for things like Steven Universe and She-Ra.
I always say, Without Legend of Korra you don't get Steven Universe Rupphire wedding. Without Steven Universe, you don't get Catra & Adora in She-Ra and Benson & Troy in Kipo (THEY ACTUALLY SAID THE WORD!!!) And without all of these shows, You don't get The Owl House & Lumity!!!
The protagonist on Nickelodeon's The Astronauts has two moms and it's treated as completely normal. Other than that, it's the best live action Nick show in years and I can't recommend it enough!
And Kipo too. Kipo is also notable for having an MLM couple instead of an WLW
Although it doesn’t come up in the show itself, I heard that Kipo herself is Bi, but isn’t mentioned because they had the mega Jaguar storyline, which could be seen as a “accepting yourself for who you are” message.
I really wish OK KO had gotten big because it had some of my absolute favorite queer rep in it. Three queer couples, if I remember correctly and two were main characters! I hope that the next frontier for queerness in animation is MLM, because aside from OK KO & Kipo... It seems like it's still considered too taboo. Probably relating to how you talked about how the 80's after-school specials were gendered. Men being more sexualized, women being sanitized. Still need to work on trans, NB & other queer rep tho, but I'm looking forward to Deadendia when it premieres on Netflix. The protag is trans masc and MLM! Anyway, a very cool video on a subject I love. Thank you
We haven't seen OK KO, but it's definitely on the watchlist now! We hope that we'll see more representation for queer men in animation soon - in hindsight, it would've been good to touch on it. About Deadendia: it's exciting to see graphic novels/webcomics getting on the mainstage, especially since they tend to feature more queer rep and diverse narratives than other media.
i absolutely love ok ko its one of my favorite shows
Grell from Black Butler is supposedly trans
YESS YESSS YESSS!!! im really late to this video but i was gonna drop into the comments to spread the OK KO agenda because i think it's such a delight of a show and an underrated gem, im so glad to see someone beat me to it by two years lol
Came here from the eyeball zone, leaving a comment for Al Gore's rhythm
I reply from the eyeball zone. Blessed be the eyeball.
Very groovy baby
I haven’t finished the video, but isn’t Al Gore’s rhythm from Kimmy Schmidt?
can someone plz explain the eyeball thing to me? I just finished the vid and I thought there would be something abt it in there but there isn’t (at least I didn’t see it)
@@apricotenvy ua-cam.com/users/thoughtslime
You left out Nickelodeon actively censoring Korra. The ending was supposed to have Korra and Asami kiss, and their relationship in the prior seasons was originally written to actually be there. Then you incorrectly attributed the risk to Nickelodeon, who did everything in its power to prevent KorrAsami short of canceling the show and burning the cels.
I saw a post on Twitter that linked to a Tumblr post where the creators of the show mentioned that Nick gave them their blessing to do it, and the relationship was something that came up later for them in the series, though I dont know how true that is.
@@SmartSmears Originally the storyboard wasn't what happened. It was less obvious. But the creator's decided to change the scene to make it more romantic, and Nick was ok but wouldn't allow an explicit kiss.
They didn't blink when The Astronauts literally started with the protagonist and her two moms. So they seem to be heading in the right direction
It's slightly coded rather than "direct", but Season 2 of Infinity Train is notable for having the most blatant portrayal of the nonbinary journey I've seen on screen, animated or otherwise.
We haven't watched Infinity Train, but we'll check it out!
YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE EYES WHICH SEEKS THE LIGHT OF TRUTH!
There's so little mlm representation in cartoons that I can't even name a single one on top of my head, especially compared to wlw representation. I've always wondered why this was.
Tbh same. All I could remember cartoon mlm representation without searching, is from the Loud House and MLP Equestria Girls (tbf I just discovered this one recently so it's still fresh in my mind)
@sewer~rat Also the perception that mlm relationships are inherently/overtly sexual and therefore inappropriate for children to see is still kicking around; there's also hold over from the view that gay men are somehow predatory. This might also lead to hiring practices, where if you present masculinely and are queer, you might have difficulty working as a children's media creator; I don't know the extent of masculine presenting queer creators in children's media, only that the few presented here are not that.
@@perchy22 There's also the fact that most of the creators pushing the boundaries. . . . . . . . . . . .are also women. I think that does play a part because I would understand having a better understanding of your own gender than opposite genders. If more male queer creators had a place in the animated space I feel like there would be that same level of enthusiasm and pushing from their own experience.
I say this because even with hetero romances, some creators (including Japanese ones if you've heard of stuff like Naruto or Sword Art Online), it's VERY obvious when a story's female love interests are written by men.
My eyeballs have come and I am watching.
.
.
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Also as a queer male artist who primarily makes queer scifi or historical works, this video is some GOOD STUFF.
Thanks for watching (and for your eyeballs 👀)! Your art sounds amazing.
yo, link me to your artwork!
@@nightowlsduo Well, thank you! It's sad I won't be able to post most of it till the end of the next academic semester, but I'm very excited to show something that is more complete then just an illustration or too. ^^
@@KrazyKaiser I have no idea why YT keeps deleting my comments, but I have my other socials linked on my page here.
Same
Can we all take a moment to appreciate how much this woman looks like a real life Connie Maheswaran? It's incredible! She's so gorgeous!
awww, thank you dear :)
Also, I personally dislike it when people say there's "subtextual" representation in children's media because subtext is not easy to pick up on as a child. Children more often than not don't even know what they should be looking for in the "subtext", and if they don't know what they are looking for then they can't pick up on it. I mean when I was 11 and watching the Legend Of Korra, I didn't realise Asami and Korra were queer and in a relationship, because I did not know that that could exist because I hadn't been exposed to queerness in media before and lived in a conservative household - for me, it was just the two friends finally surviving everything. This is why queer rep in children's media is vital. Young people shouldn't have to look to other forms of media such as tiktok just to find themselves represented, they should be able to see themselves in the stories they have been exposed to since the beginning.
I agree back when i was small, i remember i couldn't be able to pick up or know that the characters in Steven Universe are gay because it was pretty subtle for my baby brain, also i didnt know what queer means, me back then was confusued over what gender is Ruby to be in love with Sapphire:'). But im still glad that i was born in the day where LGBTQIA representations get more attention and that it IS important for kids. Besides, watching queer characters arent gonna make kids queer, it just make their life easier:)
@@emily.c518 There are people out here who watched Steven Universe as BABIES??! :0 I feel so old lol
Another piece to it worth making a note of when going across these various pieces of media from a range of time is the representation that has been able to get through, which is to say, primarily a lot of lesbian/wlw rep. You made a point earlier of how, in these After School Specials, there’s a notable difference in how the gay men and the gay women’s stories are portrayed. Wlw are seen as more palatable to a general audience, so when a creator fights to get any bit of what rep they want, this is the area that’s been easier to achieve in and it’s clearly related to the aforementioned attitudes
This is probably one of my favorite video essays of all time. As a kid who grew up watching shows such as Steven Universe and Adventure Time, it was a bit awkward talking about LGBTQ+. I wasn’t homophobic or anything, but it was a strange new situation for me. I barely knew anything about it and soon enough became familiar enough with it to realize, “Oh wait, thats me.”
I was really happy towards the end of the video when you said it was about normalizing LGBT in the media. Sure youth have internet and social media, but when I was younger all I had was tv and an ipod. Kids still watch TV and on top of that, many kids who don’t, have netflix and disney+.
I was so sick and tired of people invalidating and terrorising my feelings as a kid back then. I remember going to a Christian school in Australia when the gay rights legislation was coming out and hearing my friends say some really terrible things about gay people. Made me feel like a sexual deviant or something.
here’s some more kids shows with explicit queer rep that weren’t mentioned, but i personally love:
• kipo and the age of wonderbeasts- netflix: has a canonically gay main character (not the title character, but still a main character) who is black. he is the first character in any western children’s animation to ever say the word “gay”. he is also given a love interest (who is mexican and asian) that is explored throughout the whole series. a non-binary character is also featured as well!
• the hollow- netflix: the main character is gay, and is the second western children’s animated series to ever say the word “gay”. it is hinted at in the first season, and in the second season it is revealed that he is openly gay. another main character also has two dads. unfortunately this series was canceled before any romance could be explored.
• big shot- disney+: features a sapphic main character who crushes on another girl. it’s really sweet and one of the girls writes a song to express her feelings for the other and the two end up kissing (disney’s first live action kiss with a main character!) and they end up dating.
• diary of a future president- disney+: the main character’s brother realizes about half way through the season that he is gay and has a crush on one of his friends. there is also tons of casual rep: a sapphic side character who struggles with coming out to her homophobic family, a coworker of the main character’s parents having a husband, a gay barber that talks about having a husband, a character with two dads, and the boss of the parents being played by a trans actress! (please check this one out the lgbtq storyline is really well done and the second season comes out tomorrow!)
update: the second season of diary of a future president came out yesterday and without spoiling anything it’s very gay please go watch
Ever watched The Astronauts? That show literally starts with the protagonist and her two moms! And it's actually a pretty good show overall! Here's to better live action kids shows!
Yknow watching this I remembered Kipo and the Wonderbeasts, and the lack of people discussing it is making me question whether or not they were a kid’s show now
Kipo and the Wonderbeasts is a show that more people need to talk about
@@ashleybyrd2015 Ikr, they literally had a gay character introduced AND come out in season one and then gave him a male love interest in season 3. Like he wasn’t the title character sure but he’s literally one of the main trio!
Maybe Wolf’s whole deal was more memorable, I guess I’d understand that...
We actually haven't seen Kipo yet, but it's definitely been on our list! Maybe we'll make an update soon.
@@nightowlsduo Oh!! I hope you enjoy it when you see it! I might have overhyped it a bit since it’s been awhile since I’ve seen it personally, but it was really cool casual rep imo!!
Lord Oculon sends its regards. Also this was fantastic and as a parent of young children I am always on the lookout for wholesome queer representation in early childhood media.
This was an awesome watch. Looking forward to following this channel.
I do think there is an interesting and notable blind spot in "kids" cartoons specifically. "Kid's" cartoons tend to centralize wlw relationships but mlm relationships still largely remain delegated to the background (except for RARE cases like Kibo).
Even in the cartoons like Steven Universe, She-Ra, and Owl House gay men are delegated to background characters, the gay dad tropes, or just confirmed off-screen. I'm in my mid 20s now and as a gay man still struggle to find representation in these shows lauded for their representation.
They still deserve the praise, don't get me wrong, but I find it more interesting than anything that they just don't share the same gusto towards for representing mlm relationships in cartoons the same way. People shout about the representation which is true and I'm sat here still waiting. Like I am pretty confident at this point beyond the gay dads in Owl House, I'm not going to get anything meaningful in terms of representing me. It just makes me feel like gay men are still deemed too "inherently adult and sexual" even by some of these queer creators.
And if I'm just not looking in the right place, by all means please let me know. I understand it's much more prevalent in live-action content but that's not what I'm looking for nor talking about.
Thanks so much for watching, we really appreciate it!
As for the blindspot about queer men you mentioned, it's definitely something worth noting. You're right about broadcasters/streaming networks/etc. potentially finding it more "inherently adult or sexual" to centralize queer men's relationships.
The pool of queer characters in children's animation is also too small as it is. There isn't a lot of children's media centering on queer characters, so hopefully, if there were more, we'd see more queer men as well. In animation, there's been this rising tide of queer lady showrunners having the opportunity to create and run their own stories, like Dana Terrace and The Owl House. (Rebecca Sugar is non-binary and Noelle Stevenson is bigender, but at the time that they pushed for and secured Steven Universe and She-Ra respectively, both were very public queer women figures in the industry --- even if that public label didn't actually match up with who they are). People with the experiences of queer women end up creating works that center on queer women characters, and those creators are having a rising moment in the industry right now.
I also would recommend checking out this database from Insider on queer characters in cartoons. It came out while we were editing the video, so we weren't able to talk about it, but it goes over interesting trends and that gap in gender representation for queer characters: www.insider.com/lgbtq-cartoon-characters-kids-database-2021-06?page=see-the-data
Basically, there's no short answer to all of this, but it's good to keep in mind. Hopefully, as more media comes out, we'll have more examples of queer male characters that are accessible for young people!
Yeah, as night owls mentioned, there's the obvious hiring problem that most of the creators pushing the boundaries. . . . . . . . . . . .are also women. I think that *does* play a part because I would understand having a better understanding of your own gender than opposite genders. If more male queer creators had a place in the animated space I feel like there would be that same level of enthusiasm and pushing from their own experience. As in, I feel like I could trust someone like Dana Terrace to write a story of characters from the female growing queer perspective, but I don't know how well any on that staff would be accustomed to a male journey without that personal influence.
I say this because even with hetero romances, some creators (including Japanese ones if you've heard of stuff like Naruto, Fairy Tail or Sword Art Online), it's VERY obvious when a story's female love interests are written by men.
this was such an oddly perfect balance of entertaining and informative. absolutely great video essay
thank you!! glad you enjoyed it ❤️
This is a really good video! I've always felt like cartoons were a microcosm of how queerness is done/is allowed to be done in mainstream-ish media. I've been plotting out my own (written) essay on this for a while now just for kicks, and this video was actually really informative to me as someone who's already familiar with a lot of the subject matter. I didn't even know about Postcards from Buster until now!
Representation matters, not in the least because it's been thirteen months since Season 5 of She-ra and I can still feel the serotonin.
Ahhh thank you so much for the praise! We hope your essay goes well! Children's TV is definitely a sort of barometer for judging what society's feeling OK about. And yeah, that Postcards from Buster thing is wild --- fun fact: when the U.S. education secretary condemned the episode, it was only a couple of days after George W. Bush's 2nd inauguration. It was literally her first week on the job.
The owl house really sticks out to me, just because the relationships are realistic, it took more than a season for the main character to develop feeling for another character, and the blushing, the jumpiness, the awkardness of the relationship between the two main girls is quite realistic, and easy to relate to. It's also so cool to see these two girls, with one of them being the main character, openly kissing, hugging, blushing, holding hands, and calling eachother girlfriends on childrens television. It makes me so happy to see this open representation in any media, especially kids.
This is a greatly done essay. I can just suggest you recording your takes when you talk on camera be filmed with better face-front illumination, in a place with less flatness that creates reverberating resonance, or with a mike that catches less of it, and more your voice directly. And wish you best luck with your promising channel.
Thank you for the feedback! This is really helpful to know, we're definitely hoping to improve how we film these in the future. (also, thank you for watching!)
This is a great video! Super informative and well put together! I'm definitely going to check out more of your videos after watching this!
I found it particularly interesting how so much of the representation in children's media is queer women, and how queer men are still seen as predatory, and how we can see the roots of that as far back as after school specials. I'm hopeful that that's changing. High School Musical: The Musical: The Series which just finished its second season on Disney+ and has had a canon romance between two boy characters, Seb and Carlos, since halfway through the first season. The series creator and showrunner, Tim Federle is openly gay and has been fighting a similar fight as Dana Terrace has with the Owl House, and in the fifth episode of season two we got a kiss! I think it's pretty amazing to see this representation in HSMTMTS in particular, not only because the HSM franchise is so widely beloved, but also because I still remember when Kenny Ortega wanted to make Ryan gay in the HSM movies and Disney wouldn't let him, and even forced him to put Ryan and Kelsey together in the 3rd movie to counteract how queer coded Ryan was.
I completely get where you're from! Love HSMTMTS and Kenny Ortega's recent show Julie and the Phantoms! Had to cut it out of the script for time, but give me fun queer rep and a great soundtrack any day of the week.
Lord Oculon sent me. Insightful and a great counter to Anti-SJWs arguments about queer representation "controlling the media".
ALL HAIL THE EYEBALL. WE ARE PLEASED WITH YOUR OCULAR OFFERING.
Please people watch Kipo, it has everything:
-black rep
-mlm rep
-great music
-the FUNKYEST visuals
-great concepts and world building
-great storyline overall
And it's super underrated
So please, go watch Kipo
Night owls can be spotted by the glow of their eyeballs. That was a good video, and I thank you for highlighting some of the male characters as well. They often get overlooked in the discourse.
RedLetterMedia said it well: "Disney is Passive Progressive." Here's hoping they grow a spine.
such a mood
The eyeballs are upon you. Also, glad to hear more conversation on this topic.
Only a little ways in and this is a great video! I remember when the Postcards from Buster episode blew up. It continues to frustrate me that loving queer representation is so controversial to this day.
Obligatory eyeball reference
I feel like lgbt representation in animation is bad. not because it's poorly written, but due to limitations and boundaries queer writers face in front of executive and corporate interests. usually gay characters are incorporated in stories in either a nuanced or an extreme out of nowhere reveal that builded up from nothing.
honestly, its hard to deny that lgbt representation is just seen as "woke" politics to gain "woke" points. however queer writers and those in pre production teams, producers. fight everyday to get at least a tiny bit of representation out there. and they do so with the limited resources they can. what you get at the end of the day when these shows and movies are released is a:
gay media representation that doesn't make our straight, conservative, and religious audiences uncomfortable.
Idk but we should probably give queer writers a break since they are doing the best they can to push for representation.
It's not just representation for kids who know that their identity isn't cis, straight, and 'normal,' it's the indication that there are *other options* to kids who don't know. I think that I had heard of being gay before, but I had never seen any bisexual people in any media before I was in high school, and I felt a lot of internal pressure to always be crushing on some boy my whole life. It wasn't until a girl expressed interest in me that it even occurred to me that it was an option to like girls, and without anyone telling me, it would have taken several more years than it already did to figure out that I didn't just like boys. When I look back to high school, there were at least 4 girls I was crushing on.... And I thought I was just jealous of their appearance/personality//other traits I liked. I graduated high school in 2016.
Anyone notice the lack of gay male characters and protagonists in children’s animation. The most popular shows are focused mostly on lesbian relationships. I’m curious to know why that’s the case. Are lesbians less threatening to the status quo than gay men/boys.
it's because of the over sexualization of lesbians
Straight men are into women. I think that covers it.
Men are scene as stronge and masculine which gay is not most likely the reason
Zaheer: *suffocates multiple people and tries to suffocate Korra*
Nickelodeon: That's great but we can't show Korrasami to the KIDS
I want to mention Craig of the Creek as well. It has multiple on screen sapphic relationships, as well as a bunch of other canon gay characters. There are also multiple non-binary characters and an agender character. Also, just recently, a canon sapphic relationship began with a main character. Pls watch if you havent, the show has excellent representation and is also just really cute
Great essay! I really appreciated the history of after school specials and Nick News being included.
Lumity is canon now.
Actually the Korra finale did air on cable TV.
Korra got pulled off air in the middle of season 3 and ran online only through the season 3 finale and halfway into season 4. However by mid season 4 it was available on both cable and online viewing.
Nickelodeon majorly screwed over the show through its constant last minute changes, but I do at least feel obligated to give credit where it is due.
Thanks for pointing that out! I guess we can give Nickelodeon a little more credit...
But the reason that was the finale was because nickelodeon didn't allow that so they didn't want to go by Nick's rules and made that the finale throwing a little jab at nick and continued the legend of korra story in comics where they could write it more like they wanted
@@kyleslayer0217 In Bryan Konietzko's famous korrasami post he literally says, "We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced."
So, essentially the network told them that they could make the final korrasami scene as romantic as possible, so long as they didn't actually show them kiss.
I remember exactly when this happened, they said the views were down or something so it would be online and the first episode online was when the Earth Queen was asphyxiated on screen and I was thinking holy moly ok it wasn't because of views it was because they killed someone right on screen which had never fully happened in Avatar before. (usually there's some spirit magic or something involved, you never see death like that in the previous series)
This is why I enjoy LGBT media so much. My parents were ones who made us stop watching Buster’s Postcards. I am so hopeful that some kids will be able to see they can have queer love too.
Ugh I remember watching those after school specials awfully intently in my youth 😅 great essay! It was real interesting to see the whole history laid out. So glad you've landed in the eyeballs clutches 👁💖
I remember growing up and there being no shows that represented people like me, i thought we simply didn't exist. That was less than 15 years ago, today feels like a different world. One I wish I grew up in tbh
Here from Thought Slime, great work you've done here!
Since this was posted the owl house has had A TON of great queer rep. Lesbian, whatever eda is, nonbinary, bi, etc and it really makes a difference. But it isn’t all good because Disney is canceling it after the really short season 3 no matter how hard dana fights. - someone whose been in the toh fandom since season one was airing.
Came from a Reddit post, loved it.
Thanks so much! We really appreciate it!
Same here. Came from the reddit post, stayed for the good video essay.
I came here from THE EYEBALL ZONE
I got your video recommended today and it got me thinking.... has there been any LGBTQ+ Rep during my childhood? (I am from Germany). And I remembered the movies "wilde Hühner", it is about a clique of girls whom grow up and deal with puperty, love, and try to safe their pet-chickens (Hühner=chickens). In the movies was a girl who is a lesbian and she has her own arc of coming out and losing and winning friends and there are also on screen kisses between the two girls and, to my knowledge, it was never an issue. No censorship, no parents who were like "OMG y child is not allowed to see something like that" or angry Facebook posts... just.. acceptence i guess. So it is kind of weird to see how is was and kind of still is in other parts of the world or back in the day. Thank you for talking about the topic and showing the development over the years :)
I’m always thinking about this! Thank god for Rebecca Sugar and Dana Terrace!
"Looking at the last two seasons you may find you were looking through it from a heterosexual lens" I mean I know this was directed at the heterosexual audience but my mother could tell you I was ranting about every day when I saw more episodes about how I shipped Korrasami until the very end when it was sorta confirmed in the show.
I appreciate the fact that you talk out how TLoK was a big step for queer rep in children's media. Lately it feels like people dismiss it for "just having them hold hands", when like, it was nearly cancelled, it wasn't even aired on tv, you had to go to a website to watch the final episodes back when the only ones really doing online stuff was Netflix.
Legend of Korra
So the man of honor at my wedding has been one of my best friends since high school and I’m not even kidding, me and a couple of my friends accidentally found out that he was gay because we stumbled upon porn in his room. He didn’t come out until after we graduated high school a couple years later so we never told him about it until way afterwards because we didn’t want to out him lol.
This is so funny omg. Hey, sometimes life imitates art!
Interacting for the All-Gods-Rhythm.
MLP had some lesbian reresentation near the end of the show with Lyra and Bon Bon. I was super excited and I'm aromantic.
Also Scootaloo's aunts as well.
yes and im pretty sure applejack and rainbow were canon in fim and in mlpeg, the people who work on the show said they enjoy rarity and aj's moments and thought they fought like a couple in rollercoaster of friendship :0
NO ONE ESCAPES THE EYEBALL ZONE!
(This video essay is fantastic and I'm so glad you mentioned Danger & Eggs)
Thanks Thoughtslime and good job Night Owls. I definitely felt this whole thing growing up as someone born in '83 and didn't feel/understand that coming out was an option because of this type of media.
Thank you for watching! We really appreciate hearing from people slightly older than us because we purposely tried to find older examples of queer representation and how it affected people, even though we didn't watch those during our childhood.
It's convenient that you, a person with great glasses, were featured on a zone for eyeballs. (Also, great video!)
Great content. And btw... I really love your glasses, they really accentuate your... EYEBALLS!
the movie Inside Out could (possibly) reflect gender identity. Just a quick note if you haven't watched Inside Out this is gonna sound kinda weird. some people noticed that the emotions in Riley's brain are both male and female, even though both her mother and father have their emotions only as their gender assigned at birth. Riley might be confused about her gender, even if it's pretty indirect I think it might be possible.
Nah youre reaching with that one.✋😩
@@fur8104 why that emoji?
I watched
Riley have male and female emotions
Eyeballs. Also this is great!
I've never heard of Danger and Eggs and that makes me sad.
you can't forget about the good luck charlie moms
I'll mirror the majority of recent comments. 1) Thank you for the examination of queer representation in children's media 2) For the algorithm. 3) For the eyeballs.
Great video. Really interesting and informative. Thank you. We can only hope that The Owl House becomes the norm. Lumity being explicitly canon girlfriends, before the last episode of the series, is a big step forward.
It makes me so happy just how outdated the Owl House segment already is just a month later 🥲💕
Lumity has spoken! Let's gooooo, Dana Terrace!!
Start a patreon! I’ll be proud to be one of your first patrons this is such good content
Thanks so much! You're so sweet! That might be a bit soon for us right now, but we're definitely working on new essays, so stay tuned!
Lord Occulon sends its greetings but is sad that you did not mention Benson from Kipo and the age of Wonderbeasts.
It is an unfortunate fact that female queer representation is right now prefert because it seems less threatening.
We haven't seen Kipo yet, but it's on our list! We're definitely noticing a trend here, but hopefully this will change soon.
This was so detailed! I had always thought of LoK as the "start" thanks for going into earlier media!
Why wasn't The Loud House brought up in this video?
What a lovely video. Great explanation of the topic, organized in a way that the progress of representation was both understandable and entertaining.
Plus it reminded me I need to check out the Owl House!
I love Dana's tweets too, what a legend. Outlast your enemies, bring your queer vision to the eyes of your audience!
More recently she decided to really give it to Disney funding Republicans and their "Don't Say Gay" bill by raising over $75,000 during a charity stream.
You're in luck with the Owl House! Luz and Amity are officially girlfriends!
Right
Publicly funded media is awesome! Also your work. Loved the video.
At a young age my mom kept me away from things that didn’t seem feminine in her eyes because, at a very young age I found a interest in females as I was about 6 years old as a 6 year old I didn’t know what gay meant or was so I had told my mother about the way I felt at 6 I liked comic books action figures and male clothing, about a week after I told her about it I remember her throwing away my comic books and action figures and getting me new clothing and now that I am older I know and understand why she did it know either way after that she did other stuff to make me act more Female as making me have more female friends and taking me out of football, even though it never changed my sexuality, as she complains about same gender romances on children television to me and saying “that’s what is making children gay” as about a month ago I told her as I still had feelings for female she kept on asking how do I know and why as the reasons why were private I just told her that that’s how I felt for a while as she still doesn’t believe that I am my sexuality and still try’s to things to make me like males as she is trying to make me invite males in my grade or a grade above me to come over and hang out, which kind of makes me fell uncomfortable do to the point she tried to make me do multiple times as I refuse to do still,and as she said to me is it because of what she let me watch on tv which is just not the case.I’m sorry about making a whole life story about this all I’m trying to say is that don’t force other sexualities on you’re kids
A great description and discussion! Also, so many quotable lines. "Hey! Maybe the gays deserve to NOT die!"
Great video! Learned a lot! I really enjoy Owl House. It genuinely surprised me because my kid picked it at random on Disney+
The eyeballs have come to seek you out and state unblinking and chittering as we shed the light of revelations upon you.
The Eyeball sent me here and I saw that it was good!
All hail the eyeball. The eyeball sees the truth!
Been needing this. It's seemed as though there isnt a lot of discussion about queer representation outside of explicitly queer or leftist spaces, so hearing this makes me feel a little less crazy.
Epic eyeball moment. Thank you for this amazing essay!
I know it's not explicit in the shows but Perfuma in She-Ra is canonically trans, and Luz from the owl house is literally wearing the non-binary flag colors (I don't thing her gender has been confirmed but the fact that she looks like the flag and was created by queer person makes me believe Luz has to be non-binary)
Luz is female but is said to be non-conforming. Raine, on the otherhand, is non-binary.
This was a really nicely executed overview. I loved that you went back to the early, tentative steps. Also, I'd never heard of Danger & Eggs, so definitely keen to give that a look.
Having a quick glance over the comments, I can see there might be room for a follow-up, which I'd be interested in seeing.
Well produced, well-delivered and informed video essay. Keep up the good work!
eyeballs, but i also had it recommended on the side surprisingly. i really loved this! i wish i was more interested in kids shows bc the queer rep tends to be so much more happy and accepting and not focused on the negatives of navigating the world as a queer person. ofc ik life as a queer person isnt easy, but im tired of the low-level trauma p*rn the gets broadcast in non-childrens shows and movies, ESPECIALLY when it comes to trans and enby folx. i feel starved of transmasc rep that doesnt focus on transition and abuse from family, ik they are basically making it for cishets (and gotta make sure they get that profit off of palatable queer folx stories) to help with acceptance/etc, but its still a very binary and specific story thats always told. absolutely sick and tired of it.
I’m here to point out and shout out Cyrus Goodman, one of the first characters in children’s media to use the modern definition of gay to come out. Andi Mack is a gem within the Disney Channel, I’ll miss it dearly. It also had a queer endgame that wasn’t just his first crush. Sure, it was just a handhold, but it was a hella emotion romantic hand holding.
The eyeballs are pleased with your sacrifice. Your fate is now sealed. There is no escape. Also subscribed.
Here from the eyeball zone too,
I Love the style of your work, and I'm gonna go watch all your stuff while I work now.
One thing this is missing here though, the lack of representation and the negative representation being good enough if no one gets hurt too badly, didn't happen in a vacuum. There used to be media laws requiring horrific ends to characters who weren't straight and cis. You've shown the process of coming out of that period very well, but without referencing that context. I dunno of you had a good reason, but it feels off to me not to mention it.
Cheers, keep being awesome!
There’s also the Love God and Sheriff Blubs and Deputy Durly in Gravity Falls. Even if Alex had to be censored on his work so much I died laughing when Blubs and Durly shot that cannon so at the very least I’m glad we got that
I watched Gravity falls and i Knew they are in relationship
off topic but thank you for reminding me of postcards from buster 🙏 loved that show lol
Eyeballs have brought me here
So my university, UCSB, has a really cool program where guests who worked to develop different shows and video games, and one of the guests was one of the head writers for Arthur, Postcards from Buster, Octonaughts, and Hilda. She brought up the reaction to the Postcards from Buster episode and being so mad about it, and I mentioned that I was queer and wanted to make my own show where most of the main characters were queer, she loved the idea and basically begged me to do it.
A lot of stuff still hasn't changed because they had a whole outrage when Mr Ratburn was going to married to a guy
We honestly deserve more queer representation, it ain't making your kids gay, I saw straight people my whole life and im still gay smh
10:32 I stumbled across this episode a month ago and I was so desperate for lgbtq content that I watched it in its entirety LMAO. Great video btw
For me Dragon Prince is missing on that list. It was made from the Avatar makers and they have lgbtq relationships very openly.
This deserves so many more views
Thanks so much for watching!! 🥰
The legions of the eyeball zone shall ensure increased viewership. It will not elevate it enough alone, but it will assist in getting more views.
Wow really glad thought slime sent me, this was a really really well thought out video. Loved it, definitely subbed