Thank you for this present. Must admit I enjoyed it far more than I'd anticipated. I appreciate how thoughtfully you explored and analyzed this topic without necessarily feeling a need to solve it. Queer misery satisfies you because it does, and that admission is much more meaningful than the reasons why. As a soon to be a 58 year-old gay man, it still surprises me how vastly different life is for young people today, than it was for me.35-40 years ago. Because it truly doesn't feel that long ago. Films such as The Normal Heart, Philadelphia, Longtime Companion, and Angels in America accurately depicted the Queer misery of my youth (sorry Ms. Schulman, but not all of us were as brave or as helpful as we could've been.) These stories are also extremely valuable because they were written with no foreseeable endings. Imagine filming stories about the Holocaust at the same time it's actually taking place. These plays and films were just as much for us as they were for straight audiences. But for as much Queer misery that these pieces contain, there is also incredible beauty and even joy in them. Because writing them, acting in them, and funding them required enormous bravery, risk, and commitment. .And yes, while they may seem 'depressing' in retrospect, back then these works gave us validation and visibility. To see our own lives portrayed with such compassion and honesty was something we hadn't experienced before or had even thought possible. But as you'd mentioned, there was a flipside during that devastating time. In the throes of such inconceivable misery, physical intimacy was never more pleasurable or exhilarating. Friendship, music, dancing, drinking, gay bars, societal rebelliousness, body contact, and defiantly pursuing the forbidden made our bodies pulsate all over. Masculinity was necessary to our survival and self-preservation, and therefore we were always prepared to fight. And even though none of us expected to live past 30, recklessness was never an option. Queer misery was everywhere- rampant and unavoidable, and so we embraced fun and happiness for as long as we could.
@@JoseMariaLuna Thank YOU, Jose, for your kind words. I hope you continue creating content that expresses your unique perspectives on queerness and gay identity. I've never seen anyone discussing the topic of 'Queer misery' with regard to films and TV before. My interpretation of your essay is that it has as much to say about your own inability to personally relate to those oversimplified representations of queer-culture , as it does your deeper attraction to gay stories with more substance, grit, and human complexity. As you can see, your views resonate with a lot of the queer population, both young and old. That someone who's around half my age can create content which I not only relate to, but can use to shape my own understandings of gay-identity is an incredible thing! I also thought your inserting a potential Grindr encounter throughout the essay was a brilliant idea. Because in this age, what illustrates instant gratification' better than a sex app? With the touch of a button, we can order a sexual conquest from our phones as conveniently as a movie or a pizza. However, the young man in the video seems more burdened and distressed by the ritual of ordering an online sex partner. And perhaps it's because he already knows this random hook-up can only offer him temporary stimulation and distraction- much like those homogenously problematic queer films and programs he rallies against- and that any chances of forming a deeper, more meaningful connection are futile at best. True intimacy- the thing we all crave most- isn't achieved by sharing our bodies, but by sharing our most honest and private thoughts, feelings, and ideas. While sex can certainly be a lot of fun, we can also use it to conceal from others the most imperfect, vulnerable, complex, and messy parts of ourselves. All the stuff about ourselves that we'd never dare write about on a hook-up app, because there's nothing sexy about being genuinely human. A Grindr profile, after all, isn't supposed to describe us as someone worth getting to know, but instead highlight our most useful attributes while flaunting or exaggerating whichever surface qualities can generate the highest appraisal value. So we advertise ourselves like products stocked for mass-distribution, substituting cleverness and detachment for an actual personality until our entire identity is crushed down into a powdered concoction of easily digestible fiction. Because this is what gay men have been taught to want from each other. Self-gratification is crucial to our sense of importance and a reliable antidote for emotional isolation and social disconnect. Being desired protects us from the rejection of being understood. Whereas the young man I see in the video wants to be understood. He has an incredibly intuitive mind filled with a wondrous collection of ideas and thoughts. He is a thoughtful observer who creatively shares his viewpoints with others. He questions the world and his place in it, and he won't settle for simple answers. I really hope you continue using your unique and distinctively perceptive mind to address other topics. You have the talent and wisdom to make meaningful connections far beyond the scope of a hook-up app. Best of luck to you in your endeavors.
This was really so vivid and beautiful to read. I salute you. I cannot fathom being gay during those times- you must have seen so many awful things and I'm so sorry for that. No one deserves that. I'm 23, and so incredibly blessed to have never struggled with coming out. I worked in a gay club for two years at uni and it was truly the most fun I'd ever had. Every friday and saturday night I was surrounded by exuberant, messy, funny, wild and creative queer people and it opened my eyes to the community. I come from a small village so it was a new thing. I need to move back to Manchester and have those queer friends around me again! Anyway sorry for oversharing on your post, I just found your words so evocative and felt the need to respond. All the best
I think, for some people, stories that describe miserable situations (or misery in general) help us realise that we are not alone in our misery. Misery in all its forms forces us to obsess over our own pain, and that sometimes makes it difficult to realise that we are not the only ones who suffer. Unfortunately, many of us learn that most people don’t want to hear any “negativity”, and factor in the stigma of that misery being connected to our homosexuality, means that many of us aren’t able to share at all. Even though we realise the movie is not “real”, we understand that we are not alone, and that eases the burden, if only for a little bit and a little while. Your essay was beautiful, thank you. ☺️
I saw a critique of Edward Scissorhands one time that claimed it was "ableist" because it ended badly for Edward but that's what I'd *liked*. I thought, wow, finally a movie where the outcast isn't unrealistically accepted and bigotry is solved in 90 minutes. A movie that acknowledges the tragedy of being different. I thought it was damn refreshing. People have the strangest allergy to misery, as if because that remains the status quo, the story is somehow in favor? Like, no, by no means?
Drama has existed since the first stories and plays and the main reason behind their existence it's to make people feel "damn what a poor person...I'm SO glad I'm not them"
Thank you! Then when cliché, happy, borderline unrealistic queer stories starts coming out people started complaining, hating and being critical saying it's unrealistic. Yeah that's the point unrealistic straight stories had been told billions of times already since the beginning of cinema and now we have it in queer form that further normalise the presence of queer stories in media. My further beef with misery stories is the viewers, where alot of them only want misery stories to be shown for some reason and are just straight up hating on the happy stories
@@StewNWT There are gay movies with happy endings that came out way before 1996. Outrageous from 1977, My Beautiful Laundrette and Desert Hearts from 1985, Maurice from 1987, and the twin films The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert from 1994 and Too Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything Julie Newmar from 1995 all come to mind. There was also a lot of positive rep pre-Hays Code, but a lot of those shorts don't have plot. Out of those, I like Pierrette's Escapades from 1900!!
@@StewNWT No problem! There's way more, especially in the documentary genre. Happy queer stories have been told for as long as there's been queer people behind the camera.
I gotta add the fact that queer misery is still relevant so much in most of the world as a young middle easteren queer person I find myself isolated a lot I feel so depressed most days so stories like heartstopper to me feel so out of touch and more like a fantasy, I usually find comfort in "sad" movies too, one of my favourite of all time being the perks of being a wallflower it's just wonderful.
Same I love miserable queer movies cuz I’m a middle eastern miserable queer person lol (Kinda off topic but it’s beautiful how us queer middle easterners are almost always pro Palestinian liberation, but western and Israeli (queers and cishets alike) tries to pretend we don’t exist cuz they wanna use our oppression to further oppress Palestinians)
On the other side of it as a queer person who also loves in the middle east but in Israel being gay never came as a big struggle for me its just a normal film so when I watch gay media I cant relate to the struggle characters often go through and what lacks in gay representations for me is it being normalised i haven't found a single gay cute romcom or just any character who is gay and has another conflict outside of being gay and needing to come out
Omg, yes I, give me the misery anytime. Yes, these should not be the only stories told, but for many of us they keep us company, they provide some comfort in not feeling alone, it helps us process and experience our feelings, we grieve for those characters and sometimes for ourselves
I just hate the lack of creativity whether it’s a sad or happy gay movie/show. Where’s the sci fi, fantasy, action, (etc) gay shit? Why do we only get stories set in “real life”?
Like for real, all of those sad/happy gay shows always tend to have those "politically correct" type of gays. The inoffensive ones that tend to appeal to teenage girls. The fujoshis, the shippers, the terminally only tumblr/Twitter user. Nah give me a gay character with full blown toxic masculinity with the testesterone rivaling that of Wolverine and has the sex drive to fuck every attractive guy he sees, not those "uwu softboi I'm so very in touch with my feewing I am very accomodating and nice to everyone I meet, I'm only gonna have sex with you when we've been dating for a year and obviously we're going to be using condoms because HIV is very bad hun" ugh I want macho BS and I want it now. If straight guys can have those kinds of "toxic" straight characters then I want gay ones too.
Honestly, yes, I love queer drama, queer misery, queer mess. There is NOTHING like seeing your own cringe, your own obsessive, embarrassing, desperate moments and behaviors committed to narrative. That's how we come to terms with how universal and real our experiences are, and queer people still need that affirmation; people act ugly most of the time and we need more space to see that.
"...It was also frustrating that so much of it [the conversation] was moralising instead of seriously engaging with the text" yeah that's the internet media discourse in a nut shell
This has become my number 1 internet pet peeve lately - moralizing that is not only divorced from genuine criticism but from cultural and historic context and that doesn't allow for messiness or imperfection. Exhausting.
as someone who devours sad gay media, i also think that we need more gay joy stories. but it's a fine line for me. i need joy that feels earned. season 1 of heartstoppers was that for me because as unrealistic as i think the story is, there is an incredible lack of stories where we get to see gay people just be happy. recently it's been like what, bros and red white and royal blue that have been the two big releases for gay romcoms. we deserve some fluff too. the world is sad enough as it is.
I died laughing at the perspective fade between the 'bottom?' and the douche in the background. Gay misery is a real frustration. I grew up in the Northwest Territories in Canada and was the first out gay guy in my hometown. But I was also a big jock and loved competitive sports and was a high achiever (ended up becoming a family doctor, where I now practice in Richmond, BC). And I was so sure that when I went off to university I would meet someone I had things in common with, or could identify with. Find a boyfriend, maybe get married and have kids (I graduated high school in 2000). But FUCK has it not turned out that way at all - I found I had nothing in common with most gay men, was treated cattily and shittily by guys I tried to talk to, no one wanted to date, and I didn't have my first boyfriend til I was 30-fucking-5. And by then you become lonely, develop disconnect between physical and emotional intimacy, and everything just feels disappointing. I don't even really care for sex anymore. It has so little to do with intimacy. I still can't find people I have things in common with
I like your video. I’m a straight black man who suffers from a ton of forced isolation. I sometimes think about ending my life because I can’t relate to my “culture” and suffer from trauma and bitterness from my adolescence. I can’t relate to other people in my community, and yet the people outside of my community, mainly whites, want to kill me or do me harm in some way. So a lot of the time, I feel like I have nowhere to go or no one to turn to. Everyone’s speaking a foreign language to me, and I guess I’m too mired in my own misery or bitterness to engage in the toxic positivity that permeates everyday life. Of course, I’ve got these patriarchal standards that the world wants to impose on me and would get ostracized and mocked for not abiding by them. I get bothered when I see sex scenes because it reminds of what I don’t have and the eternal loneliness I’m sitting in. I have no culture because it was stolen from me and commodified, repackaged for the world to consume. I’m invisible as fuck.
You name drop Heartstopper, but for me Heartstopper is a show about gay misery. I watched it with my partner and the two of us cried through it the whole time. It showed how little it would have taken to turn the hell I went through as a teenager into something bearable. The first episode opens with Charlie in an abusive relationship with a closeted older boy and ends with him being sexually assaulted. The rest of the season is him making friends, being supported by teachers, shown care and compassion. I kept waiting for the terrible thing to happen. For the characters to get injured, or sick. For the love to betrayed. When it didn’t happen it made me realise how awful a world I had come to expect. How little room there was for an idea of joyful gay love. And how little it would have taken for my experience of cruelty born of homophobia to be helped and healed. Heartstopper is devastating because it imagines a world where there is enough love to heal pain. A world we do not live in, but could.
I must disagree with you, I do agree its a fantasy of an accepting world in my opinion it is really without content its about every character being gay and thats it and maybe for you thats a fantasy you desire but for me as a yo8nger person who got to live in a more accepting world the fact that every media for gays is aboit coming out and being accepted is boring because the characters dont have any depth they're gay and want to be accepted and thats it and in my opinion the potrail of gay people should obviously sometimes show the struggles that comes with it but is ready to mainly show normal people who heppen to be gay and have actual conflicts
@@galikafry8494 True, there are sooooo many gay stories that are about coming out. Practically all of them. I think just in the past few years we’re starting to get toast that. However! I do think Heartstopper provided a valuable new take on the coming out trope, since it’s about a bi and gay boy rather than just a gay boy.
I admit I'm biased. I watched Hearstopper around the time I was watching Young Royals and it always felt to me that Heartstopper lacked engaging conflict. I also find the show's writing to be really bad in some scenes.
well that's five more movies on my letterboxd watchlist. thanks for this look into "queer misery" as something positive and empowering, something to learn and grow from, something to accept and work through, and something unique and important to us that is important to be heard. it voiced a lot of my own feelings on the matter that I certainly wouldn't have been able to express so well.
I can't consume media that is happy because I am miserable and resent it, and I can't consume media that is miserable because I experience no catharsis. So I just don't. I gave-up.
As an asexual man, "Straight up" just showed me all my fears, pain and frustration. But at the same time, it helped me understand that it's okay to be me, and I'm not alone.
I feel like whether people prefer cozy optimistic media that comforts them in times of stress or upsetting media that reflects their pain and offers catharsis is a matter of personal preference. When people moralize the enjoyment of dark media it has the potential to invalidate people’s struggles I’ve genuinely seen some people claim that anyone watching media about suffering is just a privileged person enjoying misery porn or just a voyeristic sadist. Not good imo
I like seeing "queer misery" cause that's all that i ever known. I'm a queer trans man who still early in his transition. It sucks trying to figure shit out when others has known for years. Don't get me wrong starting testosterone is the best thing i ever done for myself and I don't regret it, however i feel more lost than ever. I think this feeling of being lost is due to many things. It is partly due that I knew who i was supposed to be as a woman but now as a trans man, i don't know who I'm supposed to be. I'm partly having to build myself back up from scratch. It's such a isolating feeling and i feel so alone at times that it hurts. So these queer misery movies bring me a cold comfort that tells me I'm not actually alone. Heartstoppers is a sweet show but it feels fake and hollow at times.
I think you’re from a generation where you have that choice of the fluffy gay rom com content or the legacy of misery content! Some of us just had the misery for decades, so it’s nice to have the fluffy stuff occasionally! Also straight people have had 70 years of Rom Coms where no one’s had to die or be miserable, so can’t we just have a couple?! Like we’re “normal”? No? I still have to be miserable? Ok cool! 😂
I hear you. I hated seeing queer misery on film cuz that's all there was while growing up. I especially hated brokeback mountain. So i found comfort in yaoi and yuri manga/anime. As well as thai bls or gay storylines from soap operas. But as i grew older, saw more and more queer joy in mainstream stuff, i revisited Brokeback Mountain and other tragic films. It's easier to process now and i appreciate them way more. But it can still be difficult at times.
i feel like this want for "happy gay stories" is a kind of american centric view? As someone whos a trans bi man from east europe, and knows many queer people from here and other european countries, things are always complicated, its never easy and happy like people seem to want, the relationships are complex, theres the grief of being gay here and now, at a time where it is difficult to be that in some places, where you might think youre the only one in your small village or town thats like this. Its hard to relate to queer stories that dont have a "darkness" to them, that dont have this grief of living in a world that isnt for you and how no matter how much you try youll always be an outsider do your community, you wont know a "normalcy" afforded to straight people. Maybe transness also plays a part in it, ive seen people developing c-ptsd like symptoms from being trans and in the closet most their life, when you live like that, its hard to relate to happy stories where things are easy. Maybe it brings people hope, that things could be so easy and happy in the future, but to me a happy gay story would be one where people struggle, and are imperfect and hurt and their relationships are complicated but in the end they persevere because they have a community and eachother. Thats what being queer is to me
@@vivanesca i didn't say those stories don't sell well outside of America ,I said it's an america centric view to want to over correct and over police queer art to where it only shows normative, happy, positive queer experiences that assimilate into straight societal concepts, it's like a "we got rights already can't you guys just be normal so we keep them" attitude
Personally, I view the want for 'happy gay stories' as a desire for people in general that the real world doesn't apply. As someone whose in the closet and seen homophobia in my life, I can perfectly understand people desiring stories that treat them as normal and not a strange foreign or disgusting concept. After all, fiction can be an escape of reality just as it can be self expression. Doesn't mean their should only be happy queer stories cuz it misses the whole point in art as self expression however, I personally disagree with wanting happy gay stories is 'american centric' especially when you can also argue that by living in a country with severe homophobia can cause even more desire for happy gay stories due to not being relatable, but to escape reality from their homophobic countries.
A lot of it comes from a reaction to the fact that for a long time the majority of queer stories you would see were tragic ones--classics from the mid century like The Children's Hour and The City and the Pillar or the masterpiece Giovanni's Room where at least one of the central characters is murdered or dies in suicide, and then in the 80s and 90s gay men's stories were almost all AIDS related ones (for understandable reasons.) Or much more recently, there was a belief (right or wrong) that TV shows with gay characters tended to "kill their gays" and only involve them in trauma narratives. There seems to be a hangover attitude from these from people asking that we only have happy gay stories. But I say now we have our own share of happy gay stories, so let people like me enjoy our gay tragedies in peace. :P
It's stupid how USian media wants to project this image of heavenly queerness. As if queer peeps in the Deep South live the time of their lives. Also I think it's Western Europe where queer people can live the most comfortable.
This is really a really great video. I think both joy and misery have a beautiful place in media. I cried the first time I read “I Wish You All the Best”, specifically the beginning when the main character’s parents kick them out. I smiled like an idiot reading “Loveless”. Both of those books spoke to my experience as a nonbinary aroace, and not many books do. While I would love a fun sci-fi romp through space featuring queer characters, I’d also love to bawl my eyes out reading about the miseries of being disconnected from your family and yearning for a community, it just needs to be done well.
Well, thank you for articulating why one could be attracted to sad stories in a meaningful way. I´ve only been able to explain this to people as "I like stories that make me empathize with the characters", to which people tend to reply "so, does that mean you can´t empathize with happy characters", to which I have no reply and feel like shit. hehe. he. *stares at the void in desperation* Also, as a fellow broke latin queer creator.... best of luck with Fantasolab!!
"Bohemian Rhapsody" came sooooo close to greatness and then missed, ending up as boring and preachy. I actually have no issue with Rami Malek (cishet guy) being cast. They needed to cast someone who could pull off the truly iconic Mercury in looks, mannerisms, voice, and the hard to define charisma. Malek did an amazing job and really sold me on him being Freddie. It was the writing that killed it. Mercury, by all accounts, wasn't a miserable, conflicted person. Complicated, sometimes secretive, driven, occasionally lonely and pretty damned self-aware. Miserable? No. Tormented by his gayness, definitely not. The writers (apparently due to pressure from the remaining band members) really pushed the gay misery, the seeking a "normal" life narrative. Which is a shame. The movie could have been a queer masterpiece and instead felt really lifeless and moralizing.
I am exactly half an hour in. I am too tired and too drunk -- way too drunk -- to keep watching. Whatever I say here stays, no edits. As everyone does, I have a problem with attention span these days. I really. Can't fucking tell you. How absorbed I am. In what you've made here. I'm a gay trans man. Closeted, for the most part, about being trans, for now. I dunno what you even think of trans people, but at the moment I don't care. I just. I watched I Saw the TV Glow tonight and I just. Feel like I'm part of it. Part of the line of men who love other men. In the way I didn't feel like I was allowed to. I really did get here by accident after. I'm so. Engaged. I took my first shot of T today. I wish people could understand. I wish they could understand, man. I feel like I can just be now. Just watch shit like this without endlessly wondering where I fit into it all. Like I know. I just love this video, okay? I'll watch the rest tomorrow. I'm gonna drink a little more and pass out, yeah? Thanks for this.
Congrats on starting t, dude! This comment hit really hard btw, I'm not sure what else to say. Its hard to be surrounded by so many who don't really understand, even if they try.
I am also down for films about queer characters be sad and messy, but I think what I look for there is the same as what I look for in stories about queer joy - where their sexuality is not the main drama of the narrative. It is startlingly rare to find queer leads in a non-romance, in joy or sorrow, but I think the potential for stories like that to be relatable is so, so high.
YES, so well said. Queerness doesn't rely on currently having a partner or prioritizing romantic love - maybe right now a queer character's focus is family drama, or fighting crime, or going on a quest!
i think a big issue is that people pretend we should only have queer misery _or_ queer joy stories, instead of having both. but i think both are needed because they serve different purposes, and at the end of the day, if they touch someone in whatever way that means, i think they did what they needed. queer joy allows me to step into a world without the pain of our own, and queer misery allows me to think about our own worlds problems and my own lifes problems without having to deal with those things for real. ive found myself in both, personally. great essay! plus it doubles as a good recommendation list lol
I think my favourite queer misery story is Hiroshi Ando's Blue. it's an adaptation of a manga about two girls who fall in love in the last year of highschool and are forced to deal with their separation. probably my favourite movie ever
I love that lately there have been more happy and fun queer stories, and sometimes I do find a lot of comfort in them, but few things can support me in time of need as much as queer misery stories. and I think that the reason for my special love for such stories lies not in the tragedy itself, but in the moments of happiness and light that the characters manage to find in seemingly dire conditions. As a queer person who has seen things consistently get worse and more dangerous in my country for people like me over the past couple of years, as laws have been passed making our existence outside of closets virtually impossible, I, oddly enough, sometimes find it hard to enjoy sweet and happy modern-day queer stories. I understand their importance and I still love them, don't get me wrong, but it's like watching a couple walking together when you come back from your loved one's funeral. you're still happy for them, sure, but you are unable to see past the fact that you are now robbed from what they have. What consoles me the most are stories of happiness in dark times, hope in hopeless situations, which I see as a very queer concept by itself. A hope that even if I and those close to me don’t get their happy endings, future generations will. I think that people who cannot be themselves openly, who have to fight every day for the opportunity to simply be, need stories about pain and living with this pain to the same extent as stories about happiness. We can't always be miserable, but we can't always be joyous either. we look for escapism in media, yes, but escapism that is just enough like life to be believable. thank you for this video.
I'm pushing 60 and I just love the 'in a perfect world' stories of Heartstopper, Love Victor, etc. in the same way that I love Disneyland and watching loving, happy gay vloggers travel (mostly to Disneyland) or live idyllic lives in some remote country. Although my favorite queer film will always be the original The Boys In The Band, well, the first 3/4 of it. (I don't need to see myself in Michael's breakdown every time.) Even though I work in a faux-liberal city with liberal people, mostly college-age, so much is a facade and I will never fit in. It's just more comforting to dream and live in these visions of a utopian society than the nightmare of reality. I'm not sure how much of this has to do with the video but it's the thoughts and feelings that it brought up in me.
Fab list and film project! Beat me to gay melancholy, so I'll call it my catharsis picks;o) Gallows humour I guess. Films I still always cry watching: Torchsong Trilogy (damn cup), Stonewall '95 (damn horses) and It's my party and I die if I want to (damn horses again). Misc: Now & Later, Don't ever wipe tears without gloves, Aimee & Jaguar, Relax... It's just sex, Hit & Miss, The Bubble '03, Hugo & Theo T(w)een drama I enjoyed: Middle of the World, Ete 85 (Dance on my grave was my first gay novel, figures), Now Apocalypse (Gregg Araki), I am not okay with this and the best queer show of '24 Wreck S02, allegedly;o) And regarding Disney portrayal, villains, Hays Code, recommed Queer for Fear, but that's a whole new rabbit hole. Cheers
Everyone else is being their nicest selves in here the comment section, so in the spirit of the themes treated in the video essay, imma be a lil miserable and poke fun at something i didn't like: The title is bad, José. What is it that you're defending the "Queer Misery" genre from? Why are other forms of queer media perceived as an attack? Are you afraid that the genre will get watered down; that, in the name of appealing to wider audiences, queer experiences will be "gentrified", losing what makes them special? If that's so, what is it that causes you to have so little faith in queer artists? Do you really think that queer people will simply lose their drive to tell the stories that resonate with them? The best way to steelman the defense you're trying to mount is probably something like, "Queer stories deserve to be told as they are to the widest audience, and it is a shame that such unflinching depictions of the human condition are relegated to the sidelines, when i'm convinced that those authentic portrayals of reality are what the audience at large really wants, deep down". ...but that's just false and you know it. People have voted with their wallets, time and time again. People like their "slop". I'm not even trying to be nihilist or anything, i'm just saying, instead of fighting against the current, i think creators should look for alternatives; the key to a healthy media landscape is diversity, that is, if you have all kinds of media, if you give people choice, then you can connect people through many paths. Which brings me to the part that actually irks me on the framing espoused by the essay's title; within the "queer media" space, queer misery *is already the norm* ! You don't have to defend it! I get that your essay came to you as a response to the conversations you were having with your friends, but, like, do you get that shows like Heartstopper *did not exist* until incredibly recently? What you were witnessing with your friends wasn't an attack on "queer misery"; it was people discovering that there even *are* other ways to deliver queer experiences. To end things on a positive note: I liked the essay! For realsies! Again, i'm just poking fun at the one aspect i did not like, so don't take this comment all too seriously. Cheers, and thanks for reading all the way through!
The way I see it at least, the main problem is that the vast majority of media about queer joy is just boring, plain and simple. There seems to be a misconception that queer joy has to be wholesome, fluffy and ultimately sanitised. Maybe it's just the fact that I never got to have the neat and tidy little cis gay experiences that are portrayed in stuff like heartstopper, but I personally will always find way more queer joy in something like the Rocky Horror Show, because even though only two out of its 5-ish explicitly queer characters survive, at least they get to be interesting and have conflict beyond "Oh no, what if people are mean to us for being gay?"
(Hasn't watched the video yet) I'm so excited for my miserable queers. I've described my favorite literary genre as being "bad things happening to gay people" so this will be right up my alley :)
sick of queer teenage dreams, please give me more queer coming-of-middle-age. I feel alienated by stories of happy queer teens when I couldn't experience it. There was an odd double standard in my community where you were accepted as such if you were already considered popular or likable. I was odd, queer and autistic (and the last to find out.) I wasn't worth respecting, let alone Accepting. I love that quote about sacred pain. it feels sacred sometimes, especially if you belong to other minorities, your sucky situation is part of a long line of sufferers. you have to avenge an army of ghosts. you have to avenge yourself. you have to blaze a path for the next generations, you know this. and you're allowed to grumble and kvetch your way through it. because they deserve it. you deserved it too, and it's a g-ddamn shame you didn't get it. time travel only works as a forward motion. no matter how hard you cry you won't get a redo of childhood. …did you know it's still possible? you can still have a happy childhood. no, it isn't the same as going back. you are still you, that sad child is still there. they are you. so you comfort them. treat them with the kindness you didn't get the first time around. the salve to your pain is in yourself, and it really really really sucks that it isn't in other people suddenly changing their ways. they'll see you. you will fuse into yourself and you'll feel whole again. feel, because you already were whole to begin with.
as a straight cis women (who grew up in a small town) and now studying cinema, videos about queer topics/cinema always teach me so much about an experience I will most likely not live trough myself. Your essays are a joy to watch! Creative format, clear arguments and, very important, great movies to add to my Letterboxd watchlist :)
For weirdly similar reasons i much, much prefer The Handmaiden to Portrait of a Lady on Fire, despite the Discourse(tm) regularly bashing one over the other. To a lot of people, the Handmaiden could not be Good Representation because it was made by a man and heavily featured erotica, despite the original novel being written by a gay woman. While Portrait was stunningly gorgeous and i cried, it was still so goddamn tragic. Portrait made me sad, but it was pretty so i gave it a pass. But the Handmaiden made me _yearn_. It gave me sex and vengeance and a happy goddamn ending, for once, and i wanted to drink the frames themselves from the screen. That, to me, was pure and distilled queer joy: manic, burn it all down, power fantasying joy of what happens when love does triumph. No straights were spared by the narrative, no grubby men survived unscathed. I wanted so much more of it. I’m so tired of sad lesbians.
fully accepting this is pedantic: might be more accurate to say Joel Kim Booster’s ‘Fire Island’ directed by Andrew Ahn, which is important because the film pretty explicitly about gay anti-asian racism and not just toxic gay culture on fire island - which the film does not fully explore since it’s creator, writer, director, and stars had something very specific to highlight. They deserve to be credited as such.
3:05 Wasn't Freddy Mercury bisexual? There was a whole scene where he told his wife he was bi, and she refused to consider him as anything but gay...which says a lot about how desperate people were for out queer icons that "bisexual" was simplified to "gay". It reminds me of the "one drop" rule: if an American has a drop of indigenous or African blood, they were labeled as part of that group by white society.
I like gay misery movies, all of us strangers is now top 5 favorite queer films ever, brokeback mountain changed my life. But there was a time when if you wanted to watch a queer movie it was always a terrible drama, sometines I just need to watch Beautiful thing, The way he looks or But I'm a cheerleader, to remind me: oh yeah, we’re not all gonna die horribly
god this is so..... fantastic video. during a particularly bad period of my life when i was dealing with being raped through endless grindr hookups with faceless men i watched baby reindeer. this show isn't queer not really, and many of the queer elements could be seen as problematic, but god the lonely feeling of dealing with what happened through violent and anonymous sex seems to be a uniquely lonely queer experience. i had never felt more seen and more self aware of my own behaviour than watching that show and of the loop contuining. films like all of us strangers, arakis work, terrence davises work, all seem to hone in on how lonely it is to be queer and it always speaks so much deeper to my soul than any attempt of "queer happiness" like heartstopper and love victor like you have mentioned, as it doesn't feel real. even something like love simon which you explictly spoke about felt more real. great video. glad this exists.
I think that…. There needs to be e a balance…. Queer misery doesn’t have to revolve around queerness. At least not entirely… Other People and Skeleton Twins had to do with generational trauma but it was not solely focused on queer trauma but a queer look at trauma. Queering trauma.
When misery was the ONLY “entertainment” available- yes it was caca. But art and artists can’t and should NOT look the other way to make queer theorists happy. The whole AIDS “community” thing is a bit mythical. It only really occurred in gay enclaves. Talk about gay community in the mid 80s to someone in the Midwest or the South. Also- the best art has to have consequential conflict. When we create this perfect narratives that satisfy queer theory- we risk forgetting our history and leave future generations of LGBTQ people utterly and completely unprepared for the inevitable backlashes that fuck us
One of my big beefs with a lot of stories that deal with trauma in general - including and perhaps especially queer stories dealing with trauma - is that it feels just so one-note. I'll forgive you for giving me a sucker-punch of an ending if you give me some moments to genuinely hope the characters might find a way to make it out okay by the end. Because then we have a tragedy on our hands that says "it didn't have to end this way. It NEVER has to end this way." But when it's all just one-note trauma and tragedy without those sections of light to give the characters humanity, to me it loses the whole thing that makes the bad ending a tragedy. It just becomes an exercise in wallowing in pity, and sorry, but I've experienced too much trauma in my life to put up with that. I'm sorry, but I've lived in hell on earth, and I refuse to go back to that nihilistic self-pity I used to feel. Give me an ending that is tragic, yes, but has something in there that makes me stop and appreciate how beautiful the story itself is, and reminds us that constant suffering and misery does not have to be the only path.
I just recently watched All of Us Strangers and (spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it, and be aware it features some heavy topics) and I love how it seems bittersweet but it's not, really. The mc (i can't remember his name) is alone in the start and ending of the film. Seeing his parents and believing that they really have come back to life, he wants to tell them about his life and how he's changed as a person and he wants them to accept him, which is something he never got from them because he was so young when they died (and because of the time). It wasn't his love interest's death that made me cry, it was when I heard the jingle of keys in the other room of an empty apartment. It was seeing the man who had just killed himself standing in front of the mc, like some sort of apparition. The film ends with some semblance of closure or a feeling of content, after giving the audience the knowledge that things did not end so well, and that the mc is still alone. The only people I can even remeber in the film are the mc, his love interest, his parents, and the people in the gay bars they saw when they went out. They're the only ones that live in their appartment building. It's a story told with a lack of people, and at first it made things appear more intimate but a certain point it was just isolation, but it's an isolation I'm sure many of us here are intimately familiar with. Sorry to go off on a tangent I just haven't gotten much of an opportunity to talk about this film :,)
Queer misery is also important because it reminds us and straight people in progressive areas that most queer people don’t experience a societal send of neutrality or positivity around their identity. I grew up in a place where being queer was fairly acceptable, and had friends identifying as queer as early as the sixth grade. There was still a portion (probably 30-35%) pf the population who openly disliked queer people and quite a bit of more passive aggressive bigotry, but the general sense was that it was ok, and that being queer was normal. This has led to a lot of my straight friends saying or doing things that indicated they did not understand that homophobia and transphobia are still massive issues in other regions of the world, outside of our isolated Pacific Northwest communities. Regularly I open TikTok and see queer people from other parts of the US, Latin America, MENA, East Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe, and they are often very sad because they feel alone and are missing out on the chance to experience queer love prior to becoming an adult. I feel terrible for the people trapped in situations like this, and the last thing I would want to do is forget them in favor of some fantasy of complete acceptance and support for queer identity on a screen. I want queer joy, but I think queer sorrow is equally important to showcase.
Ngl Heartstopper makes me feel kinda lonely and envious as my time in school was just not like that while a more miserable queer show like The Bisexual made me feel more okay with myself, but Idk if that reveals something kinda mean about myself lol
I do believe gay and queer experience is extremely different and the gap between them widens. It is because gay men for instance just like to have have sex with other men, whereas queer people question all the fundaments of human biology. This conditions the whole perception of the world, which has lots to do with feeling of misery. Gay men are mostly driven by best sexual fulfilment in partner, whereas queer people are not very sexual. Queer people focus on abstract concepts and ideas more, reaching the depths of abstraction gay people normally do not venture into. Because gayness is biological and queerness is cultural. I am gay and I am by no means queer, I would not have problem with being queer if I was, I am a man and I am very aware and connected to my body.
i hadn't watched one of your vids before and i think when i saw this i was expecting to be irritated but begrudgingly agree, i'm unfortunately someone who has a kneejerk reaction to the idea of artsy nerds critiquing media that isn't edifying enough (despite aspiring to be that) and really wasn't expecting going into this that the bar is literally just "has flawed queer characters" bc i somehow forgot that alleged fans of queer media can't even handle something like steven universe without devolving into inane discourse. this was a very good and insightful vid and i'll definitely look into anhell69 and the other stuff mentioned
As a trans and gay Colombian, I'm so happy that you included the discussion around Angel69 in this video-essay. There's this terrible idea that queerness and queer persecution is a Western thing when, in reality, queernes and queer art are universal.
I watched the whole thing. I definitely agree with your take and love to see diverse storylines about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to LGBTQ+ film. I saved this video.
I know. Calling Boy Erased "basic" or "boring" when it's a true story to me feels very dismissive and insensitive. Like, how do you call a depiction of someone's real-life trauma explicitly connected to their queerness "basic" and "boring"? Idk, I felt like that misses the mark. Just don't mention it, or say you didn't care for it.
@@reginalibonoito hopefully I was clear that I was highlighting reason why the two films are so different. I think it’d be silly to do a 1-1 comparison of films with such different premises
Man, you can't imagine how much I value this video. It was so cool to find out about Anhell 69 (love the name, BTW). Everybody complains about Colombian cinema, but the thing is that the talent is not supported. It's always like that in "La Tierra del Sagrado Corazón".
Lady Gaga is both a gay icon AND bisexual (she has made songs about fucking women, like Venus and SXXX dreams in 2013) so she winning an Oscar would have been pretty cool too. Anyway great vid! I love stories about miserable (and horny!) gays as well. my fave queer misery stories are Utena (1997), Mulholland Drive, Death in Venice, Exquisite Corpse, Happy Together, Work in Progress and Stone Butch Blues
I believe the problem arises when the only stories being told are about misery. As a teenager, I struggled to find anything that didn't have a sad ending. I remember coming across lists of happy queer movies and reading comments from people expressing their disappointment and frustration at how difficult it was to find stories with happy endings. Some people seem to have an issue with cheerful, happy stories about teenagers holding hands. I always found it strange-why does a story need to be sad just because it features gay characters? I enjoy drama and sad stories, but I believe it's wrong to deprive an entire demographic of happy endings. Straight people grow up with stories of romance, adventure, and fantasy. I would have given anything to have a show like Heartstopper when I was young, even though it's not my favorite. The Owl House is a cartoon about a girl who goes to a magical world, starts learning magic, and falls in love with another girl. The protagonist is bisexual, and there's even a scene where she comes out to her mother. This kind of representation would have made a significant impact on me when I was younger because the story isn't about her sexuality-it's about adventure, fantasy, and magic. When stories feature main characters who aren't straight, they often focus on their sexuality and the associated struggles. While these stories are important, we also need narratives where the characters' sexuality isn't the central issue, just like the stories straight people have enjoyed for years. There's a reason shows like I Love Victor and Heartstopper resonate with audiences-the only stories many LGBTQ+ people had were about misery. There needs to be a balance. How many people do you know who watch and read drama every day?
I understand where you're coming from in that queer stories need nuance and queer misery is needed as much as queer joy. Personally, though, queer misery did more harm than good to my teenage self. I was lonely, scared, undergoing severe trauma from other circumstances of my life and stuck in a town infested with homophobes. Those movies only brought out more of my anxieties about the future and a deep sense of depression about being powerless to change that. They made me feel like misery was all that there was to the queer experience and that the best I could hope for were fleeting moments of inmediate pleasure in the midst of running away from a world that hates me. One comparison that I really like to make is that queer misery is like a cold shower. It's an unpleasant moment to wake you up and make you more alert. It just doesn't work too well if you're already in winter and having to deal with the cold all the time
I love love love this. And I was just saying this to a friend. I'm tired of gay people complaining about how they only want to watch or read happy gay stories. It's true that for decades the few gay love stories to get mainstream release ended tragically--and we needed diversity. But, you know, I like sad and miserable stories in general, and that includes my gay ones. I am SOO glad queer teens now have Heartstoppers to enjoy. Truly I am. But you know, when I was in high school, it would have driven me crazy to read or watch a story about other gay teens who already have found perfect boyfriends, encounter only the most minor homophobia, etc. Teens love misery and drama, don't they? I know I did (and still do,) and that was NOT what I would have wanted from the gay fiction I was seeking out and found.
I will add that, while it was only briefly touched on, I got anxious when I saw Company come up on this list again, expecting the same old "Well Bobby must be gay" argument that I've heard ever since I discovered the musical as a lonely teen 30 years ago. But I think you, and Kyle, put it perfectly--Bobby being gay or not is not the point (and if that was his "problem" would miss what I see the point of the musical being--about his inability to connect.) And yes, I do still find it a pretty "queer" musical despite only having one maybe bisexual character (Peter in the 1990s revised script shown here.) In fact I think it might be Sondheim's queerest show next to Passion and Anyone Can Whistle (I'm serious...) So thanks for that ;) And the shoutout to Howard Ashman. (And because I can't shut up, I'll say that I think we are in agreement on Angels in America. I can see people criticizing it on historical grounds--although I think Schulman's argument that it shows straight people coming to the help of gay people only really addresses one of myriad storylines that is hardly the main focus--but Kushner wasn't concerned by that, and when I watch it, neither am I. And a great quick take on Kramer's F****** a book that I kinda hate read, again as a teen in the 90s and was amazed it came out the same year as Dancer from the Dance, a book that was very important to me, but I've come to see there is a truth in Kramer's book too and it wasn't all mean satire and finger wagging.)
What I will say about Happiest Season is that the way they treated the autistic coded sister disgusted me. As an autistic lesbian, I found myself more closely identifying with her. I hated the way she was treated by the narrative.
The saddest part of this whole video is at 11:05 when we discover he’s not a bottom 😢😢😢 I hate these labels tho. So adorable and intelligent, sexy and deep… You made me feel something wow
My memory of Angels in America isn't perfect, but i recall Prior's friends & queer community members being a core part of his recovery and survival? What straight man are they even talking about??
absolutely loved the video, so glad to have gotten it in my recommended feed! i think both sides (the queer misery and the bubblegum sweet type of stuff) are important - like, when i was living in a country were being openly queer meant putting urself in a lot of danger; i was using the sugary stuff as a form of escapism, but now that i'm in a safer place and at peace with my identity, i gravitate towards "heavier" stories. and what's even more important imo is having all of that and more available, not framing the many queer lives and experiences as just this one thing that neatly fits into a box - that (once again imo) would reflect and fit the many queer ways of life and experiences, and i feel like we're getting more range as of the last 20 yrs :)
What people don't seem to get about things like this (Damsels in distress as a trope is another example) is that it's never bad in and of itself, but the lack of counterexamples IS. When that's corrected, why *shouldn't* the traditional thing to depict take place? I mean if you want a genre full of straights suffering, look no further than film noir. So it's not as if straights are always happy and gays always aren't, even. But I'm not gay, so take that with a pinch of salt.
i HATE the idea that queer media shouldn't ever show homophobia or transphobia. seeing the only rep be "cute queer utopia where homophobia and transphobia has never existed" is boring and isolating. i like stories that deal with our hardships and make us feel less alone. i wish there was more trans rep that actually dealt with dysphoria and transphobia and didn't just sweep it under the rug because it's "too depressing" it's like they think acknowledging that bigotry and dysphoria exist is somehow toxic or not woke.
Everyone who actually studies of Cinema and Queer history/sociology gets to this same position: embracing our mistakes, our differences and everything that make us miserable is a much more effective way to show how interesting and different we are. We wouldn't be so queer if we haven't suffered so much for being different. And that's what makes our subjectivity so complex and rich.
I love this video about our community’s rich culture. Also, I think that this is how I want intellectual material delivered to me from now on: by a cute guy in a tank-top. :)
UPDATE! We met our $900 goal! Oh my God, thank you all so much! This is crazy! With that amount, not only did we pay for the Fantasolab Screenwriting Lab, but we also have additional funds to start covering research and concept art commissions! However, if you're still interested in sending in a tip for the video, I won't say no and would appreciate it immensely, but that's up to you! Links in the description ☺
this is a great video, I’ve made videos on my own channel about the same subject. What I think is interesting here, though, is that most of the examples you give for diverse and interesting representation come from comedies. I don’t think this is a subject of misery versus joy. I think this is a subject of quality storytelling versus heteronormative placeholders.
I'm writing a book and a lot of the themes are about the relationships I had with other women growing up. How queer girls often have abusive relationships with eachother before they have the words to understand that what they're experiencing is a relationship. I've had so many friendships with girls where it was so close to being romantic, the jealousy that you didn't have any right to feel because you're just friends, they're allowed other friends. The frustration that you didn't feel seen but you couldn't say how. I wanted to be the most special person to them. I didn't even know what a lesbian was until I was 12, I knew I was different and that everyone around me knew I was different. When I found out it was because I was being bullied for being a lesbian. I had a conversation with my old therapist about my relationship to horror as a genre and my interest in the macarbe. How it comforts me because I'm so used to being in hell I decided to make a home there so it didn't seem that bad. I enjoy queer joy but queer misery is cathartic, I don't want to dream I want to be seen.
Gay men with AIDS were often abandoned by the gay world. This happened particularly as gay men became exhausted by the epidemic. Let's not romanticise what happened. I was there, I had AIDS and when my health status became obvious, I was abandoned by one and many. The people who tended to stand by me were straight friends who were not exhausted and a few lesbian friends from a support group I had been a member of prior to my own health crisis. This was my story but was clearly the story of many. Don't be seduced by images of thousands on the streets of Melbourne, my home town, holding candles on !st December, or by what might occur in films like "Holding The Man". Homophobia does not stop with straight people, gay men and women are human too.
I would like to clarify that although Queen Ann is certainly rumoured to be (and likely was) queer, The Favourite is in no way an accurate depiction of her life, reign or (and I cannot stress this last one enough) her character!!!!!
Wow this was an amazing video! I agree, "good representation" is so often so boring. I love the angst and weirdness in so much queer media because that's real. Living as a queer person is often weird and messy.
Man, I don't really care all that much about whether it's comically tragic or saccharine, I just want more art with aspec protagonists😭 Really great video.
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I turned off after the wiping out of Larry Kramer's title for his novel. I also have a slight nausea about films that are supposedly ' supportive ' of same sex relationships aimed at straights. You named many. Independent cinema and theatre is for me far more interesting. Very often made by US and not them. Films lost to most people but treasured and brought out detached from straight ' approval. ' French cinema divorced from mainstream concerns has made many. One example of REAL gay misery is ' Stand ' in Russian made outside of Russia for obvious reasons.
Saw a movie called Between love and goodbye when I was a closeted teen, barely had access to any gay friendly content back in the 00' in fact ; well, talking about misery, this movie was excrutiating
There's nothing wrong with showing queer misery, but there's a big problem when all we get is this, like in the past when we only had this kind of representation, and by the way, this representation was more like a cautionary tale like "look, if you're gay, you're going to die, whether from AIDS or alone" and that's my problem with movies and shows that only portray queer suffering (specially gay). they weren't trying to show real life, they were trying to scare us and I was afraid of dying of AIDS (at that time) or being alone and unhappy for most of my life. we deserve fluffy and innocent stories too.
I'm not a fan of "queer misery" or really any misery in the media I consume (unless I'm in the mood for a good horror), but you did bring up points that I had milling around in my head that I couldn't quite put forth. And yeah, I agree, what I love about these kind of films is the introspection, to see that our misery is a shared experienced and that we aren't alone. So thank you for this! Also congrats on raising the money! I'm so excited to see what comes of that film! I would also love if you're able to, look at the list of media/books you're researching. I've been trying to incorporate more Latinx/culture/heritage in both fantasy and sci-fi (the genres I mainly work in) in the TTRPG world, but my Spanish literacy is mainly aural than reading, it makes it hard for me. I understand if you're keeping it all under the belt too~
You’ve put a lot of work into this video and it shows. There were moments where what you were saying hit me in gay places I hadn’t felt before. I really enjoyed this. Felt like watching a seasoned video essayist. Hope you blow up cause it’d be well deserved.
26:18 ayyyy my brother was in my hometown’s adaption of Fun Home when he was 11. I’m glad he had that representation at that age. He’s still only 14 now, so we don’t know yet if he needed it, but I’m glad he had it.
Thank you for this present. Must admit I enjoyed it far more than I'd anticipated. I appreciate how thoughtfully you explored and analyzed this topic without necessarily feeling a need to solve it. Queer misery satisfies you because it does, and that admission is much more meaningful than the reasons why. As a soon to be a 58 year-old gay man, it still surprises me how vastly different life is for young people today, than it was for me.35-40 years ago. Because it truly doesn't feel that long ago. Films such as The Normal Heart, Philadelphia, Longtime Companion, and Angels in America accurately depicted the Queer misery of my youth (sorry Ms. Schulman, but not all of us were as brave or as helpful as we could've been.) These stories are also extremely valuable because they were written with no foreseeable endings. Imagine filming stories about the Holocaust at the same time it's actually taking place. These plays and films were just as much for us as they were for straight audiences.
But for as much Queer misery that these pieces contain, there is also incredible beauty and even joy in them. Because writing them, acting in them, and funding them required enormous bravery, risk, and commitment. .And yes, while they may seem 'depressing' in retrospect, back then these works gave us validation and visibility. To see our own lives portrayed with such compassion and honesty was something we hadn't experienced before or had even thought possible. But as you'd mentioned, there was a flipside during that devastating time. In the throes of such inconceivable misery, physical intimacy was never more pleasurable or exhilarating. Friendship, music, dancing, drinking, gay bars, societal rebelliousness, body contact, and defiantly pursuing the forbidden made our bodies pulsate all over. Masculinity was necessary to our survival and self-preservation, and therefore we were always prepared to fight. And even though none of us expected to live past 30, recklessness was never an option. Queer misery was everywhere- rampant and unavoidable, and so we embraced fun and happiness for as long as we could.
This was so beautiful to read, thank you so much for sharing this
@@JoseMariaLuna Thank YOU, Jose, for your kind words. I hope you continue creating content that expresses your unique perspectives on queerness and gay identity. I've never seen anyone discussing the topic of 'Queer misery' with regard to films and TV before. My interpretation of your essay is that it has as much to say about your own inability to personally relate to those oversimplified representations of queer-culture , as it does your deeper attraction to gay stories with more substance, grit, and human complexity. As you can see, your views resonate with a lot of the queer population, both young and old. That someone who's around half my age can create content which I not only relate to, but can use to shape my own understandings of gay-identity is an incredible thing!
I also thought your inserting a potential Grindr encounter throughout the essay was a brilliant idea. Because in this age, what illustrates instant gratification' better than a sex app? With the touch of a button, we can order a sexual conquest from our phones as conveniently as a movie or a pizza. However, the young man in the video seems more burdened and distressed by the ritual of ordering an online sex partner. And perhaps it's because he already knows this random hook-up can only offer him temporary stimulation and distraction- much like those homogenously problematic queer films and programs he rallies against- and that any chances of forming a deeper, more meaningful connection are futile at best. True intimacy- the thing we all crave most- isn't achieved by sharing our bodies, but by sharing our most honest and private thoughts, feelings, and ideas. While sex can certainly be a lot of fun, we can also use it to conceal from others the most imperfect, vulnerable, complex, and messy parts of ourselves. All the stuff about ourselves that we'd never dare write about on a hook-up app, because there's nothing sexy about being genuinely human. A Grindr profile, after all, isn't supposed to describe us as someone worth getting to know, but instead highlight our most useful attributes while flaunting or exaggerating whichever surface qualities can generate the highest appraisal value. So we advertise ourselves like products stocked for mass-distribution, substituting cleverness and detachment for an actual personality until our entire identity is crushed down into a powdered concoction of easily digestible fiction. Because this is what gay men have been taught to want from each other. Self-gratification is crucial to our sense of importance and a reliable antidote for emotional isolation and social disconnect. Being desired protects us from the rejection of being understood.
Whereas the young man I see in the video wants to be understood. He has an incredibly intuitive mind filled with a wondrous collection of ideas and thoughts. He is a thoughtful observer who creatively shares his viewpoints with others. He questions the world and his place in it, and he won't settle for simple answers. I really hope you continue using your unique and distinctively perceptive mind to address other topics. You have the talent and wisdom to make meaningful connections far beyond the scope of a hook-up app. Best of luck to you in your endeavors.
@@trao1938 thank you infinitely for this, truly means the world 💛
@@JoseMariaLunareally I feel so bad but proud of older queer people that were even more courageous then us
This was really so vivid and beautiful to read. I salute you. I cannot fathom being gay during those times- you must have seen so many awful things and I'm so sorry for that. No one deserves that.
I'm 23, and so incredibly blessed to have never struggled with coming out. I worked in a gay club for two years at uni and it was truly the most fun I'd ever had. Every friday and saturday night I was surrounded by exuberant, messy, funny, wild and creative queer people and it opened my eyes to the community. I come from a small village so it was a new thing.
I need to move back to Manchester and have those queer friends around me again!
Anyway sorry for oversharing on your post, I just found your words so evocative and felt the need to respond. All the best
I think, for some people, stories that describe miserable situations (or misery in general) help us realise that we are not alone in our misery. Misery in all its forms forces us to obsess over our own pain, and that sometimes makes it difficult to realise that we are not the only ones who suffer. Unfortunately, many of us learn that most people don’t want to hear any “negativity”, and factor in the stigma of that misery being connected to our homosexuality, means that many of us aren’t able to share at all. Even though we realise the movie is not “real”, we understand that we are not alone, and that eases the burden, if only for a little bit and a little while.
Your essay was beautiful, thank you. ☺️
I saw a critique of Edward Scissorhands one time that claimed it was "ableist" because it ended badly for Edward but that's what I'd *liked*. I thought, wow, finally a movie where the outcast isn't unrealistically accepted and bigotry is solved in 90 minutes. A movie that acknowledges the tragedy of being different. I thought it was damn refreshing. People have the strangest allergy to misery, as if because that remains the status quo, the story is somehow in favor? Like, no, by no means?
Drama has existed since the first stories and plays and the main reason behind their existence it's to make people feel "damn what a poor person...I'm SO glad I'm not them"
misery loves company
Sickos (me & my girlfriend) seeing you post this essay: YES... HA HA HA... YES!
The way this is THE greatest honor
I love this. For me the key is always sincerity, sincere joy or sincere misery
Yes! Exactly!
oh i love this take!
This video has resonated with me on a spiritual level as a closeted 17 year old Indian.
The beef I had with gay misery stories were for the longest time they were the only stories available.
Thank you! Then when cliché, happy, borderline unrealistic queer stories starts coming out people started complaining, hating and being critical saying it's unrealistic. Yeah that's the point unrealistic straight stories had been told billions of times already since the beginning of cinema and now we have it in queer form that further normalise the presence of queer stories in media. My further beef with misery stories is the viewers, where alot of them only want misery stories to be shown for some reason and are just straight up hating on the happy stories
exactly. Beautiful Thing from 1996 was the first gay movie with a happy ending.
@@StewNWT There are gay movies with happy endings that came out way before 1996. Outrageous from 1977, My Beautiful Laundrette and Desert Hearts from 1985, Maurice from 1987, and the twin films The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert from 1994 and Too Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything Julie Newmar from 1995 all come to mind. There was also a lot of positive rep pre-Hays Code, but a lot of those shorts don't have plot. Out of those, I like Pierrette's Escapades from 1900!!
@@ThatMackieGirl good corrections, thanks for the list of those titles
@@StewNWT No problem! There's way more, especially in the documentary genre. Happy queer stories have been told for as long as there's been queer people behind the camera.
I gotta add the fact that queer misery is still relevant so much in most of the world as a young middle easteren queer person I find myself isolated a lot I feel so depressed most days so stories like heartstopper to me feel so out of touch and more like a fantasy, I usually find comfort in "sad" movies too, one of my favourite of all time being the perks of being a wallflower it's just wonderful.
Lmao why am I crying while watching
SO TRUE AND REAL!
Like my God, even in most western countries were they are "accepting", queers still struggle.
I’m from the US and find heartstopper unrelatable. Unfortunately the most relatable to me is moonlight
Same I love miserable queer movies cuz I’m a middle eastern miserable queer person lol
(Kinda off topic but it’s beautiful how us queer middle easterners are almost always pro Palestinian liberation, but western and Israeli (queers and cishets alike) tries to pretend we don’t exist cuz they wanna use our oppression to further oppress Palestinians)
On the other side of it as a queer person who also loves in the middle east but in Israel being gay never came as a big struggle for me its just a normal film so when I watch gay media I cant relate to the struggle characters often go through and what lacks in gay representations for me is it being normalised i haven't found a single gay cute romcom or just any character who is gay and has another conflict outside of being gay and needing to come out
Omg, yes I, give me the misery anytime. Yes, these should not be the only stories told, but for many of us they keep us company, they provide some comfort in not feeling alone, it helps us process and experience our feelings, we grieve for those characters and sometimes for ourselves
I just hate the lack of creativity whether it’s a sad or happy gay movie/show. Where’s the sci fi, fantasy, action, (etc) gay shit? Why do we only get stories set in “real life”?
If you're not watching Interview with the Vampire then you need to!
Like for real, all of those sad/happy gay shows always tend to have those "politically correct" type of gays. The inoffensive ones that tend to appeal to teenage girls. The fujoshis, the shippers, the terminally only tumblr/Twitter user.
Nah give me a gay character with full blown toxic masculinity with the testesterone rivaling that of Wolverine and has the sex drive to fuck every attractive guy he sees, not those "uwu softboi I'm so very in touch with my feewing I am very accomodating and nice to everyone I meet, I'm only gonna have sex with you when we've been dating for a year and obviously we're going to be using condoms because HIV is very bad hun" ugh
I want macho BS and I want it now. If straight guys can have those kinds of "toxic" straight characters then I want gay ones too.
@@saltoftheegg or Good Omens, and Our Flag Means Death!
Honestly, yes, I love queer drama, queer misery, queer mess. There is NOTHING like seeing your own cringe, your own obsessive, embarrassing, desperate moments and behaviors committed to narrative. That's how we come to terms with how universal and real our experiences are, and queer people still need that affirmation; people act ugly most of the time and we need more space to see that.
perfectly said. thank you
"...It was also frustrating that so much of it [the conversation] was moralising instead of seriously engaging with the text" yeah that's the internet media discourse in a nut shell
This has become my number 1 internet pet peeve lately - moralizing that is not only divorced from genuine criticism but from cultural and historic context and that doesn't allow for messiness or imperfection. Exhausting.
@@sarahpowell6617moralizing, its just such a petty borgeoise thing to begin with it seeps into everything.
Adding this to my endless watchlist of queer video essays 🤣
Fr! I have over 20 as of now 💀
And i never get to finish the one i want to finish @AlLeftyPenguino
Get a job
@@macaronisex yea, I’d be careful about saying that with that username 👀
@@macaronisexu first
as someone who devours sad gay media, i also think that we need more gay joy stories. but it's a fine line for me. i need joy that feels earned. season 1 of heartstoppers was that for me because as unrealistic as i think the story is, there is an incredible lack of stories where we get to see gay people just be happy. recently it's been like what, bros and red white and royal blue that have been the two big releases for gay romcoms. we deserve some fluff too. the world is sad enough as it is.
I died laughing at the perspective fade between the 'bottom?' and the douche in the background.
Gay misery is a real frustration. I grew up in the Northwest Territories in Canada and was the first out gay guy in my hometown. But I was also a big jock and loved competitive sports and was a high achiever (ended up becoming a family doctor, where I now practice in Richmond, BC). And I was so sure that when I went off to university I would meet someone I had things in common with, or could identify with. Find a boyfriend, maybe get married and have kids (I graduated high school in 2000). But FUCK has it not turned out that way at all - I found I had nothing in common with most gay men, was treated cattily and shittily by guys I tried to talk to, no one wanted to date, and I didn't have my first boyfriend til I was 30-fucking-5. And by then you become lonely, develop disconnect between physical and emotional intimacy, and everything just feels disappointing.
I don't even really care for sex anymore. It has so little to do with intimacy. I still can't find people I have things in common with
Thanks for sharing your experience. I can definitely relate.
I like your video. I’m a straight black man who suffers from a ton of forced isolation. I sometimes think about ending my life because I can’t relate to my “culture” and suffer from trauma and bitterness from my adolescence. I can’t relate to other people in my community, and yet the people outside of my community, mainly whites, want to kill me or do me harm in some way. So a lot of the time, I feel like I have nowhere to go or no one to turn to. Everyone’s speaking a foreign language to me, and I guess I’m too mired in my own misery or bitterness to engage in the toxic positivity that permeates everyday life. Of course, I’ve got these patriarchal standards that the world wants to impose on me and would get ostracized and mocked for not abiding by them. I get bothered when I see sex scenes because it reminds of what I don’t have and the eternal loneliness I’m sitting in. I have no culture because it was stolen from me and commodified, repackaged for the world to consume. I’m invisible as fuck.
I feel you….. isolation has changed my brain… forever.
my fate is much the same, tho from completely different circumstances....... invisible indeed.
The fact that the root of your isolation and suffering is inherently different than mine but the feelings we share are exactly the same.
You're not invisible! You'll find the people who see you and remember you got to see yourself too. You got this ♥
@@FluentlyFletch thank you
You name drop Heartstopper, but for me Heartstopper is a show about gay misery.
I watched it with my partner and the two of us cried through it the whole time. It showed how little it would have taken to turn the hell I went through as a teenager into something bearable. The first episode opens with Charlie in an abusive relationship with a closeted older boy and ends with him being sexually assaulted.
The rest of the season is him making friends, being supported by teachers, shown care and compassion. I kept waiting for the terrible thing to happen. For the characters to get injured, or sick. For the love to betrayed. When it didn’t happen it made me realise how awful a world I had come to expect. How little room there was for an idea of joyful gay love. And how little it would have taken for my experience of cruelty born of homophobia to be helped and healed.
Heartstopper is devastating because it imagines a world where there is enough love to heal pain. A world we do not live in, but could.
I must disagree with you, I do agree its a fantasy of an accepting world in my opinion it is really without content its about every character being gay and thats it and maybe for you thats a fantasy you desire but for me as a yo8nger person who got to live in a more accepting world the fact that every media for gays is aboit coming out and being accepted is boring because the characters dont have any depth they're gay and want to be accepted and thats it and in my opinion the potrail of gay people should obviously sometimes show the struggles that comes with it but is ready to mainly show normal people who heppen to be gay and have actual conflicts
@@galikafry8494 True, there are sooooo many gay stories that are about coming out. Practically all of them. I think just in the past few years we’re starting to get toast that. However! I do think Heartstopper provided a valuable new take on the coming out trope, since it’s about a bi and gay boy rather than just a gay boy.
I admit I'm biased. I watched Hearstopper around the time I was watching Young Royals and it always felt to me that Heartstopper lacked engaging conflict. I also find the show's writing to be really bad in some scenes.
‘Our parents can guide us through life, but they can’t guide us through this.’ This hits home.
well that's five more movies on my letterboxd watchlist. thanks for this look into "queer misery" as something positive and empowering, something to learn and grow from, something to accept and work through, and something unique and important to us that is important to be heard. it voiced a lot of my own feelings on the matter that I certainly wouldn't have been able to express so well.
What are rhe five movies I am going to watch this essay later
@@giselle6605 There's a lot more than five mentioned in the video, but if you scroll along the video bar, the titles are all labeled.
I can't consume media that is happy because I am miserable and resent it, and I can't consume media that is miserable because I experience no catharsis. So I just don't. I gave-up.
As an asexual man, "Straight up" just showed me all my fears, pain and frustration. But at the same time, it helped me understand that it's okay to be me, and I'm not alone.
I feel like whether people prefer cozy optimistic media that comforts them in times of stress or upsetting media that reflects their pain and offers catharsis is a matter of personal preference. When people moralize the enjoyment of dark media it has the potential to invalidate people’s struggles
I’ve genuinely seen some people claim that anyone watching media about suffering is just a privileged person enjoying misery porn or just a voyeristic sadist. Not good imo
It's a growing narrative among young Americans. Not surprising, given the fact that Republicans are deliberately making their youth dumber.
I like seeing "queer misery" cause that's all that i ever known. I'm a queer trans man who still early in his transition. It sucks trying to figure shit out when others has known for years. Don't get me wrong starting testosterone is the best thing i ever done for myself and I don't regret it, however i feel more lost than ever. I think this feeling of being lost is due to many things. It is partly due that I knew who i was supposed to be as a woman but now as a trans man, i don't know who I'm supposed to be. I'm partly having to build myself back up from scratch. It's such a isolating feeling and i feel so alone at times that it hurts. So these queer misery movies bring me a cold comfort that tells me I'm not actually alone. Heartstoppers is a sweet show but it feels fake and hollow at times.
I hated how in Love Simon the blackmailer suffers no consequence. Also, how selfish were Simon's friends
I think you’re from a generation where you have that choice of the fluffy gay rom com content or the legacy of misery content! Some of us just had the misery for decades, so it’s nice to have the fluffy stuff occasionally! Also straight people have had 70 years of Rom Coms where no one’s had to die or be miserable, so can’t we just have a couple?! Like we’re “normal”? No? I still have to be miserable? Ok cool! 😂
I hear you. I hated seeing queer misery on film cuz that's all there was while growing up. I especially hated brokeback mountain. So i found comfort in yaoi and yuri manga/anime. As well as thai bls or gay storylines from soap operas.
But as i grew older, saw more and more queer joy in mainstream stuff, i revisited Brokeback Mountain and other tragic films. It's easier to process now and i appreciate them way more.
But it can still be difficult at times.
THIS. I respect queer misery. It’s a part of our story. And is still part of it. We still have lots of pain… but I want our stupid bubblegum shit too.
i feel like this want for "happy gay stories" is a kind of american centric view? As someone whos a trans bi man from east europe, and knows many queer people from here and other european countries, things are always complicated, its never easy and happy like people seem to want, the relationships are complex, theres the grief of being gay here and now, at a time where it is difficult to be that in some places, where you might think youre the only one in your small village or town thats like this. Its hard to relate to queer stories that dont have a "darkness" to them, that dont have this grief of living in a world that isnt for you and how no matter how much you try youll always be an outsider do your community, you wont know a "normalcy" afforded to straight people. Maybe transness also plays a part in it, ive seen people developing c-ptsd like symptoms from being trans and in the closet most their life, when you live like that, its hard to relate to happy stories where things are easy. Maybe it brings people hope, that things could be so easy and happy in the future, but to me a happy gay story would be one where people struggle, and are imperfect and hurt and their relationships are complicated but in the end they persevere because they have a community and eachother. Thats what being queer is to me
idk man heartstopper is a bestseller among baby queers in poland. and fujoshis ofc
@@vivanesca i didn't say those stories don't sell well outside of America ,I said it's an america centric view to want to over correct and over police queer art to where it only shows normative, happy, positive queer experiences that assimilate into straight societal concepts, it's like a "we got rights already can't you guys just be normal so we keep them" attitude
Personally, I view the want for 'happy gay stories' as a desire for people in general that the real world doesn't apply. As someone whose in the closet and seen homophobia in my life, I can perfectly understand people desiring stories that treat them as normal and not a strange foreign or disgusting concept. After all, fiction can be an escape of reality just as it can be self expression. Doesn't mean their should only be happy queer stories cuz it misses the whole point in art as self expression however, I personally disagree with wanting happy gay stories is 'american centric' especially when you can also argue that by living in a country with severe homophobia can cause even more desire for happy gay stories due to not being relatable, but to escape reality from their homophobic countries.
A lot of it comes from a reaction to the fact that for a long time the majority of queer stories you would see were tragic ones--classics from the mid century like The Children's Hour and The City and the Pillar or the masterpiece Giovanni's Room where at least one of the central characters is murdered or dies in suicide, and then in the 80s and 90s gay men's stories were almost all AIDS related ones (for understandable reasons.) Or much more recently, there was a belief (right or wrong) that TV shows with gay characters tended to "kill their gays" and only involve them in trauma narratives. There seems to be a hangover attitude from these from people asking that we only have happy gay stories.
But I say now we have our own share of happy gay stories, so let people like me enjoy our gay tragedies in peace. :P
It's stupid how USian media wants to project this image of heavenly queerness. As if queer peeps in the Deep South live the time of their lives. Also I think it's Western Europe where queer people can live the most comfortable.
This is really a really great video. I think both joy and misery have a beautiful place in media. I cried the first time I read “I Wish You All the Best”, specifically the beginning when the main character’s parents kick them out. I smiled like an idiot reading “Loveless”. Both of those books spoke to my experience as a nonbinary aroace, and not many books do. While I would love a fun sci-fi romp through space featuring queer characters, I’d also love to bawl my eyes out reading about the miseries of being disconnected from your family and yearning for a community, it just needs to be done well.
Loveless for me, was the first time I felt I wasn't confused by the aroace characters thoughts and actions. not so much of a large disconnect
Rrghhhhhh /pos we need so much more nonbinary aroace representation
Well, thank you for articulating why one could be attracted to sad stories in a meaningful way. I´ve only been able to explain this to people as "I like stories that make me empathize with the characters", to which people tend to reply "so, does that mean you can´t empathize with happy characters", to which I have no reply and feel like shit.
hehe.
he.
*stares at the void in desperation*
Also, as a fellow broke latin queer creator.... best of luck with Fantasolab!!
Thank you so much! Solidarity with the creation and the void!
just say your experience is different and normal happy portrayal just doesn’t do it for you
"Bohemian Rhapsody" came sooooo close to greatness and then missed, ending up as boring and preachy. I actually have no issue with Rami Malek (cishet guy) being cast. They needed to cast someone who could pull off the truly iconic Mercury in looks, mannerisms, voice, and the hard to define charisma. Malek did an amazing job and really sold me on him being Freddie.
It was the writing that killed it. Mercury, by all accounts, wasn't a miserable, conflicted person. Complicated, sometimes secretive, driven, occasionally lonely and pretty damned self-aware. Miserable? No. Tormented by his gayness, definitely not.
The writers (apparently due to pressure from the remaining band members) really pushed the gay misery, the seeking a "normal" life narrative. Which is a shame. The movie could have been a queer masterpiece and instead felt really lifeless and moralizing.
I am exactly half an hour in. I am too tired and too drunk -- way too drunk -- to keep watching. Whatever I say here stays, no edits.
As everyone does, I have a problem with attention span these days. I really. Can't fucking tell you. How absorbed I am. In what you've made here.
I'm a gay trans man. Closeted, for the most part, about being trans, for now. I dunno what you even think of trans people, but at the moment I don't care. I just.
I watched I Saw the TV Glow tonight and I just. Feel like I'm part of it. Part of the line of men who love other men. In the way I didn't feel like I was allowed to. I really did get here by accident after. I'm so. Engaged.
I took my first shot of T today. I wish people could understand. I wish they could understand, man.
I feel like I can just be now. Just watch shit like this without endlessly wondering where I fit into it all. Like I know.
I just love this video, okay? I'll watch the rest tomorrow. I'm gonna drink a little more and pass out, yeah?
Thanks for this.
Congratulations on starting T! Thanks for the earnest ramble 💛💛💛
Congrats on starting t, dude!
This comment hit really hard btw, I'm not sure what else to say.
Its hard to be surrounded by so many who don't really understand, even if they try.
so happy for u!!
So happy for you! Un abbraccio fortissimo!!! Much love ❤❤❤
I am also down for films about queer characters be sad and messy, but I think what I look for there is the same as what I look for in stories about queer joy - where their sexuality is not the main drama of the narrative.
It is startlingly rare to find queer leads in a non-romance, in joy or sorrow, but I think the potential for stories like that to be relatable is so, so high.
Can You Ever Forgive Me is one of my recent favorites in part because exactly that, a non-romantic approach to queer struggles
YES, so well said. Queerness doesn't rely on currently having a partner or prioritizing romantic love - maybe right now a queer character's focus is family drama, or fighting crime, or going on a quest!
i think a big issue is that people pretend we should only have queer misery _or_ queer joy stories, instead of having both. but i think both are needed because they serve different purposes, and at the end of the day, if they touch someone in whatever way that means, i think they did what they needed. queer joy allows me to step into a world without the pain of our own, and queer misery allows me to think about our own worlds problems and my own lifes problems without having to deal with those things for real. ive found myself in both, personally.
great essay! plus it doubles as a good recommendation list lol
I think my favourite queer misery story is Hiroshi Ando's Blue. it's an adaptation of a manga about two girls who fall in love in the last year of highschool and are forced to deal with their separation. probably my favourite movie ever
Gregg araki’s movies saved my life. They showed me that people like me existed and were valid.
I love that lately there have been more happy and fun queer stories, and sometimes I do find a lot of comfort in them, but few things can support me in time of need as much as queer misery stories. and I think that the reason for my special love for such stories lies not in the tragedy itself, but in the moments of happiness and light that the characters manage to find in seemingly dire conditions.
As a queer person who has seen things consistently get worse and more dangerous in my country for people like me over the past couple of years, as laws have been passed making our existence outside of closets virtually impossible, I, oddly enough, sometimes find it hard to enjoy sweet and happy modern-day queer stories. I understand their importance and I still love them, don't get me wrong, but it's like watching a couple walking together when you come back from your loved one's funeral. you're still happy for them, sure, but you are unable to see past the fact that you are now robbed from what they have.
What consoles me the most are stories of happiness in dark times, hope in hopeless situations, which I see as a very queer concept by itself. A hope that even if I and those close to me don’t get their happy endings, future generations will. I think that people who cannot be themselves openly, who have to fight every day for the opportunity to simply be, need stories about pain and living with this pain to the same extent as stories about happiness. We can't always be miserable, but we can't always be joyous either. we look for escapism in media, yes, but escapism that is just enough like life to be believable.
thank you for this video.
QUEER VIDEO ESSAY NATION WINNING TONIGHT. this is so well made god damn
I'm pushing 60 and I just love the 'in a perfect world' stories of Heartstopper, Love Victor, etc. in the same way that I love Disneyland and watching loving, happy gay vloggers travel (mostly to Disneyland) or live idyllic lives in some remote country. Although my favorite queer film will always be the original The Boys In The Band, well, the first 3/4 of it. (I don't need to see myself in Michael's breakdown every time.) Even though I work in a faux-liberal city with liberal people, mostly college-age, so much is a facade and I will never fit in. It's just more comforting to dream and live in these visions of a utopian society than the nightmare of reality. I'm not sure how much of this has to do with the video but it's the thoughts and feelings that it brought up in me.
The visuals, the script and the passion in this video are top frickin notch
second Jose video in one month?? we are being touched by gods!
Fab list and film project! Beat me to gay melancholy, so I'll call it my catharsis picks;o) Gallows humour I guess.
Films I still always cry watching: Torchsong Trilogy (damn cup), Stonewall '95 (damn horses) and It's my party and I die if I want to (damn horses again).
Misc: Now & Later, Don't ever wipe tears without gloves, Aimee & Jaguar, Relax... It's just sex, Hit & Miss, The Bubble '03, Hugo & Theo
T(w)een drama I enjoyed: Middle of the World, Ete 85 (Dance on my grave was my first gay novel, figures), Now Apocalypse (Gregg Araki), I am not okay with this and the best queer show of '24 Wreck S02, allegedly;o)
And regarding Disney portrayal, villains, Hays Code, recommed Queer for Fear, but that's a whole new rabbit hole. Cheers
Everyone else is being their nicest selves in here the comment section, so in the spirit of the themes treated in the video essay, imma be a lil miserable and poke fun at something i didn't like: The title is bad, José.
What is it that you're defending the "Queer Misery" genre from? Why are other forms of queer media perceived as an attack? Are you afraid that the genre will get watered down; that, in the name of appealing to wider audiences, queer experiences will be "gentrified", losing what makes them special? If that's so, what is it that causes you to have so little faith in queer artists? Do you really think that queer people will simply lose their drive to tell the stories that resonate with them?
The best way to steelman the defense you're trying to mount is probably something like, "Queer stories deserve to be told as they are to the widest audience, and it is a shame that such unflinching depictions of the human condition are relegated to the sidelines, when i'm convinced that those authentic portrayals of reality are what the audience at large really wants, deep down".
...but that's just false and you know it. People have voted with their wallets, time and time again. People like their "slop". I'm not even trying to be nihilist or anything, i'm just saying, instead of fighting against the current, i think creators should look for alternatives; the key to a healthy media landscape is diversity, that is, if you have all kinds of media, if you give people choice, then you can connect people through many paths.
Which brings me to the part that actually irks me on the framing espoused by the essay's title; within the "queer media" space, queer misery *is already the norm* ! You don't have to defend it! I get that your essay came to you as a response to the conversations you were having with your friends, but, like, do you get that shows like Heartstopper *did not exist* until incredibly recently? What you were witnessing with your friends wasn't an attack on "queer misery"; it was people discovering that there even *are* other ways to deliver queer experiences.
To end things on a positive note: I liked the essay! For realsies! Again, i'm just poking fun at the one aspect i did not like, so don't take this comment all too seriously. Cheers, and thanks for reading all the way through!
You're actually severely incorrect, Olivia Colman had been sweeping that year. Lady Gaga was not leading the Oscar race.
The way I see it at least, the main problem is that the vast majority of media about queer joy is just boring, plain and simple. There seems to be a misconception that queer joy has to be wholesome, fluffy and ultimately sanitised. Maybe it's just the fact that I never got to have the neat and tidy little cis gay experiences that are portrayed in stuff like heartstopper, but I personally will always find way more queer joy in something like the Rocky Horror Show, because even though only two out of its 5-ish explicitly queer characters survive, at least they get to be interesting and have conflict beyond "Oh no, what if people are mean to us for being gay?"
(Hasn't watched the video yet) I'm so excited for my miserable queers. I've described my favorite literary genre as being "bad things happening to gay people" so this will be right up my alley :)
sick of queer teenage dreams, please give me more queer coming-of-middle-age. I feel alienated by stories of happy queer teens when I couldn't experience it. There was an odd double standard in my community where you were accepted as such if you were already considered popular or likable.
I was odd, queer and autistic (and the last to find out.) I wasn't worth respecting, let alone Accepting.
I love that quote about sacred pain. it feels sacred sometimes, especially if you belong to other minorities, your sucky situation is part of a long line of sufferers. you have to avenge an army of ghosts.
you have to avenge yourself. you have to blaze a path for the next generations, you know this. and you're allowed to grumble and kvetch your way through it. because they deserve it. you deserved it too, and it's a g-ddamn shame you didn't get it.
time travel only works as a forward motion. no matter how hard you cry you won't get a redo of childhood.
…did you know it's still possible? you can still have a happy childhood. no, it isn't the same as going back. you are still you, that sad child is still there. they are you.
so you comfort them. treat them with the kindness you didn't get the first time around. the salve to your pain is in yourself, and it really really really sucks that it isn't in other people suddenly changing their ways.
they'll see you. you will fuse into yourself and you'll feel whole again.
feel, because you already were whole to begin with.
as a straight cis women (who grew up in a small town) and now studying cinema, videos about queer topics/cinema always teach me so much about an experience I will most likely not live trough myself.
Your essays are a joy to watch! Creative format, clear arguments and, very important, great movies to add to my Letterboxd watchlist :)
For weirdly similar reasons i much, much prefer The Handmaiden to Portrait of a Lady on Fire, despite the Discourse(tm) regularly bashing one over the other. To a lot of people, the Handmaiden could not be Good Representation because it was made by a man and heavily featured erotica, despite the original novel being written by a gay woman. While Portrait was stunningly gorgeous and i cried, it was still so goddamn tragic. Portrait made me sad, but it was pretty so i gave it a pass. But the Handmaiden made me _yearn_. It gave me sex and vengeance and a happy goddamn ending, for once, and i wanted to drink the frames themselves from the screen. That, to me, was pure and distilled queer joy: manic, burn it all down, power fantasying joy of what happens when love does triumph. No straights were spared by the narrative, no grubby men survived unscathed. I wanted so much more of it. I’m so tired of sad lesbians.
speak the truth girlie
fully accepting this is pedantic: might be more accurate to say Joel Kim Booster’s ‘Fire Island’ directed by Andrew Ahn, which is important because the film pretty explicitly about gay anti-asian racism and not just toxic gay culture on fire island - which the film does not fully explore since it’s creator, writer, director, and stars had something very specific to highlight. They deserve to be credited as such.
3:05 Wasn't Freddy Mercury bisexual? There was a whole scene where he told his wife he was bi, and she refused to consider him as anything but gay...which says a lot about how desperate people were for out queer icons that "bisexual" was simplified to "gay". It reminds me of the "one drop" rule: if an American has a drop of indigenous or African blood, they were labeled as part of that group by white society.
I like gay misery movies, all of us strangers is now top 5 favorite queer films ever, brokeback mountain changed my life. But there was a time when if you wanted to watch a queer movie it was always a terrible drama, sometines I just need to watch Beautiful thing, The way he looks or But I'm a cheerleader, to remind me: oh yeah, we’re not all gonna die horribly
god this is so..... fantastic video. during a particularly bad period of my life when i was dealing with being raped through endless grindr hookups with faceless men i watched baby reindeer. this show isn't queer not really, and many of the queer elements could be seen as problematic, but god the lonely feeling of dealing with what happened through violent and anonymous sex seems to be a uniquely lonely queer experience. i had never felt more seen and more self aware of my own behaviour than watching that show and of the loop contuining. films like all of us strangers, arakis work, terrence davises work, all seem to hone in on how lonely it is to be queer and it always speaks so much deeper to my soul than any attempt of "queer happiness" like heartstopper and love victor like you have mentioned, as it doesn't feel real. even something like love simon which you explictly spoke about felt more real. great video. glad this exists.
I think that…. There needs to be e a balance…. Queer misery doesn’t have to revolve around queerness. At least not entirely… Other People and Skeleton Twins had to do with generational trauma but it was not solely focused on queer trauma but a queer look at trauma. Queering trauma.
I disagree about live Simon and love Victor. I grew up Latino, Catholic, and gay so I connected DEEPLY to this show.
When misery was the ONLY “entertainment” available- yes it was caca.
But art and artists can’t and should NOT look the other way to make queer theorists happy.
The whole AIDS “community” thing is a bit mythical.
It only really occurred in gay enclaves.
Talk about gay community in the mid 80s to someone in the Midwest or the South.
Also- the best art has to have consequential conflict.
When we create this perfect narratives that satisfy queer theory- we risk forgetting our history and leave future generations of LGBTQ people utterly and completely unprepared for the inevitable backlashes that fuck us
One of my big beefs with a lot of stories that deal with trauma in general - including and perhaps especially queer stories dealing with trauma - is that it feels just so one-note. I'll forgive you for giving me a sucker-punch of an ending if you give me some moments to genuinely hope the characters might find a way to make it out okay by the end. Because then we have a tragedy on our hands that says "it didn't have to end this way. It NEVER has to end this way." But when it's all just one-note trauma and tragedy without those sections of light to give the characters humanity, to me it loses the whole thing that makes the bad ending a tragedy. It just becomes an exercise in wallowing in pity, and sorry, but I've experienced too much trauma in my life to put up with that. I'm sorry, but I've lived in hell on earth, and I refuse to go back to that nihilistic self-pity I used to feel. Give me an ending that is tragic, yes, but has something in there that makes me stop and appreciate how beautiful the story itself is, and reminds us that constant suffering and misery does not have to be the only path.
I just recently watched All of Us Strangers and (spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it, and be aware it features some heavy topics) and I love how it seems bittersweet but it's not, really. The mc (i can't remember his name) is alone in the start and ending of the film. Seeing his parents and believing that they really have come back to life, he wants to tell them about his life and how he's changed as a person and he wants them to accept him, which is something he never got from them because he was so young when they died (and because of the time). It wasn't his love interest's death that made me cry, it was when I heard the jingle of keys in the other room of an empty apartment. It was seeing the man who had just killed himself standing in front of the mc, like some sort of apparition. The film ends with some semblance of closure or a feeling of content, after giving the audience the knowledge that things did not end so well, and that the mc is still alone. The only people I can even remeber in the film are the mc, his love interest, his parents, and the people in the gay bars they saw when they went out. They're the only ones that live in their appartment building. It's a story told with a lack of people, and at first it made things appear more intimate but a certain point it was just isolation, but it's an isolation I'm sure many of us here are intimately familiar with. Sorry to go off on a tangent I just haven't gotten much of an opportunity to talk about this film :,)
Loved this film and your thoughts
@@sarahpowell6617 appreciate it. Most people probably wouldn't read it 🥲
mc name is Adam ☝🤓
I don't always like the stories of queer misery, but more often than not, they're the stories that have some substance to them.
Queer misery is also important because it reminds us and straight people in progressive areas that most queer people don’t experience a societal send of neutrality or positivity around their identity. I grew up in a place where being queer was fairly acceptable, and had friends identifying as queer as early as the sixth grade. There was still a portion (probably 30-35%) pf the population who openly disliked queer people and quite a bit of more passive aggressive bigotry, but the general sense was that it was ok, and that being queer was normal. This has led to a lot of my straight friends saying or doing things that indicated they did not understand that homophobia and transphobia are still massive issues in other regions of the world, outside of our isolated Pacific Northwest communities. Regularly I open TikTok and see queer people from other parts of the US, Latin America, MENA, East Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe, and they are often very sad because they feel alone and are missing out on the chance to experience queer love prior to becoming an adult. I feel terrible for the people trapped in situations like this, and the last thing I would want to do is forget them in favor of some fantasy of complete acceptance and support for queer identity on a screen. I want queer joy, but I think queer sorrow is equally important to showcase.
Ngl Heartstopper makes me feel kinda lonely and envious as my time in school was just not like that while a more miserable queer show like The Bisexual made me feel more okay with myself, but Idk if that reveals something kinda mean about myself lol
To have another soul talk about all of us strangers is so gratifying thank you for reminding me of that time and where and when i saw it
I do believe gay and queer experience is extremely different and the gap between them widens. It is because gay men for instance just like to have have sex with other men, whereas queer people question all the fundaments of human biology. This conditions the whole perception of the world, which has lots to do with feeling of misery. Gay men are mostly driven by best sexual fulfilment in partner, whereas queer people are not very sexual. Queer people focus on abstract concepts and ideas more, reaching the depths of abstraction gay people normally do not venture into. Because gayness is biological and queerness is cultural. I am gay and I am by no means queer, I would not have problem with being queer if I was, I am a man and I am very aware and connected to my body.
i hadn't watched one of your vids before and i think when i saw this i was expecting to be irritated but begrudgingly agree, i'm unfortunately someone who has a kneejerk reaction to the idea of artsy nerds critiquing media that isn't edifying enough (despite aspiring to be that) and really wasn't expecting going into this that the bar is literally just "has flawed queer characters" bc i somehow forgot that alleged fans of queer media can't even handle something like steven universe without devolving into inane discourse.
this was a very good and insightful vid and i'll definitely look into anhell69 and the other stuff mentioned
As a trans and gay Colombian, I'm so happy that you included the discussion around Angel69 in this video-essay. There's this terrible idea that queerness and queer persecution is a Western thing when, in reality, queernes and queer art are universal.
I watched the whole thing. I definitely agree with your take and love to see diverse storylines about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to LGBTQ+ film. I saved this video.
4:44 but boy erased was an adaptation of a autobiography versus a historical dark comedy.
Yeah, it was literally based on the author's real life. Calling it "basic" or "boring" is something I find to be very dismissive, I guess.
I know. Calling Boy Erased "basic" or "boring" when it's a true story to me feels very dismissive and insensitive. Like, how do you call a depiction of someone's real-life trauma explicitly connected to their queerness "basic" and "boring"? Idk, I felt like that misses the mark. Just don't mention it, or say you didn't care for it.
I like Boy erased .Is a super valid voice from the author.The book is good too
@@reginalibonoito hopefully I was clear that I was highlighting reason why the two films are so different. I think it’d be silly to do a 1-1 comparison of films with such different premises
Man, you can't imagine how much I value this video. It was so cool to find out about Anhell 69 (love the name, BTW). Everybody complains about Colombian cinema, but the thing is that the talent is not supported. It's always like that in "La Tierra del Sagrado Corazón".
Lady Gaga is both a gay icon AND bisexual (she has made songs about fucking women, like Venus and SXXX dreams in 2013) so she winning an Oscar would have been pretty cool too.
Anyway great vid! I love stories about miserable (and horny!) gays as well. my fave queer misery stories are Utena (1997), Mulholland Drive, Death in Venice, Exquisite Corpse, Happy Together, Work in Progress and Stone Butch Blues
I believe the problem arises when the only stories being told are about misery. As a teenager, I struggled to find anything that didn't have a sad ending. I remember coming across lists of happy queer movies and reading comments from people expressing their disappointment and frustration at how difficult it was to find stories with happy endings. Some people seem to have an issue with cheerful, happy stories about teenagers holding hands. I always found it strange-why does a story need to be sad just because it features gay characters?
I enjoy drama and sad stories, but I believe it's wrong to deprive an entire demographic of happy endings. Straight people grow up with stories of romance, adventure, and fantasy. I would have given anything to have a show like Heartstopper when I was young, even though it's not my favorite.
The Owl House is a cartoon about a girl who goes to a magical world, starts learning magic, and falls in love with another girl. The protagonist is bisexual, and there's even a scene where she comes out to her mother. This kind of representation would have made a significant impact on me when I was younger because the story isn't about her sexuality-it's about adventure, fantasy, and magic.
When stories feature main characters who aren't straight, they often focus on their sexuality and the associated struggles. While these stories are important, we also need narratives where the characters' sexuality isn't the central issue, just like the stories straight people have enjoyed for years. There's a reason shows like I Love Victor and Heartstopper resonate with audiences-the only stories many LGBTQ+ people had were about misery. There needs to be a balance. How many people do you know who watch and read drama every day?
This was my experience too. Heartstopper and Cherry Magic felt healing but left me with such a deep sadness for my childhood.
I understand where you're coming from in that queer stories need nuance and queer misery is needed as much as queer joy.
Personally, though, queer misery did more harm than good to my teenage self. I was lonely, scared, undergoing severe trauma from other circumstances of my life and stuck in a town infested with homophobes. Those movies only brought out more of my anxieties about the future and a deep sense of depression about being powerless to change that. They made me feel like misery was all that there was to the queer experience and that the best I could hope for were fleeting moments of inmediate pleasure in the midst of running away from a world that hates me.
One comparison that I really like to make is that queer misery is like a cold shower. It's an unpleasant moment to wake you up and make you more alert. It just doesn't work too well if you're already in winter and having to deal with the cold all the time
I love love love this. And I was just saying this to a friend. I'm tired of gay people complaining about how they only want to watch or read happy gay stories. It's true that for decades the few gay love stories to get mainstream release ended tragically--and we needed diversity. But, you know, I like sad and miserable stories in general, and that includes my gay ones.
I am SOO glad queer teens now have Heartstoppers to enjoy. Truly I am. But you know, when I was in high school, it would have driven me crazy to read or watch a story about other gay teens who already have found perfect boyfriends, encounter only the most minor homophobia, etc. Teens love misery and drama, don't they? I know I did (and still do,) and that was NOT what I would have wanted from the gay fiction I was seeking out and found.
I will add that, while it was only briefly touched on, I got anxious when I saw Company come up on this list again, expecting the same old "Well Bobby must be gay" argument that I've heard ever since I discovered the musical as a lonely teen 30 years ago. But I think you, and Kyle, put it perfectly--Bobby being gay or not is not the point (and if that was his "problem" would miss what I see the point of the musical being--about his inability to connect.) And yes, I do still find it a pretty "queer" musical despite only having one maybe bisexual character (Peter in the 1990s revised script shown here.) In fact I think it might be Sondheim's queerest show next to Passion and Anyone Can Whistle (I'm serious...) So thanks for that ;) And the shoutout to Howard Ashman.
(And because I can't shut up, I'll say that I think we are in agreement on Angels in America. I can see people criticizing it on historical grounds--although I think Schulman's argument that it shows straight people coming to the help of gay people only really addresses one of myriad storylines that is hardly the main focus--but Kushner wasn't concerned by that, and when I watch it, neither am I. And a great quick take on Kramer's F****** a book that I kinda hate read, again as a teen in the 90s and was amazed it came out the same year as Dancer from the Dance, a book that was very important to me, but I've come to see there is a truth in Kramer's book too and it wasn't all mean satire and finger wagging.)
What I will say about Happiest Season is that the way they treated the autistic coded sister disgusted me. As an autistic lesbian, I found myself more closely identifying with her. I hated the way she was treated by the narrative.
The saddest part of this whole video is at 11:05 when we discover he’s not a bottom 😢😢😢
I hate these labels tho.
So adorable and intelligent, sexy and deep…
You made me feel something wow
Egg whites and paper bag roller set if you want bed proof curls.
Oh my God, thank you!
@@JoseMariaLuna brilliant video! I should have said that sooner but I focused on sharing historical hair care tips.
Congratulations on your award!
My memory of Angels in America isn't perfect, but i recall Prior's friends & queer community members being a core part of his recovery and survival? What straight man are they even talking about??
The comment refers specifically to Meryl's character arc, Joe's mother, whose redemption arc gets a lot of emphasis in the second half of the play
absolutely loved the video, so glad to have gotten it in my recommended feed! i think both sides (the queer misery and the bubblegum sweet type of stuff) are important - like, when i was living in a country were being openly queer meant putting urself in a lot of danger; i was using the sugary stuff as a form of escapism, but now that i'm in a safer place and at peace with my identity, i gravitate towards "heavier" stories. and what's even more important imo is having all of that and more available, not framing the many queer lives and experiences as just this one thing that neatly fits into a box - that (once again imo) would reflect and fit the many queer ways of life and experiences, and i feel like we're getting more range as of the last 20 yrs :)
My soul jumped at the Grindr notification
What people don't seem to get about things like this (Damsels in distress as a trope is another example) is that it's never bad in and of itself, but the lack of counterexamples IS. When that's corrected, why *shouldn't* the traditional thing to depict take place? I mean if you want a genre full of straights suffering, look no further than film noir. So it's not as if straights are always happy and gays always aren't, even. But I'm not gay, so take that with a pinch of salt.
I'm sorry, José. You're a walking contradiction. If you love gay misery so much why are you such a joy in my life?
I'm going to CRY William! My star performer!
i keep crying but i cant stop watching, love this video
i HATE the idea that queer media shouldn't ever show homophobia or transphobia. seeing the only rep be "cute queer utopia where homophobia and transphobia has never existed" is boring and isolating. i like stories that deal with our hardships and make us feel less alone. i wish there was more trans rep that actually dealt with dysphoria and transphobia and didn't just sweep it under the rug because it's "too depressing"
it's like they think acknowledging that bigotry and dysphoria exist is somehow toxic or not woke.
Maybe you don't enjoy misery, but actually commiseration
Everyone who actually studies of Cinema and Queer history/sociology gets to this same position: embracing our mistakes, our differences and everything that make us miserable is a much more effective way to show how interesting and different we are. We wouldn't be so queer if we haven't suffered so much for being different. And that's what makes our subjectivity so complex and rich.
Cmbyn does have a bittersweet ending but it was SUCH A GREAT MOVIE Of an Age as well & Moonlight
I love this video about our community’s rich culture.
Also, I think that this is how I want intellectual material delivered to me from now on: by a cute guy in a tank-top. :)
UPDATE! We met our $900 goal! Oh my God, thank you all so much! This is crazy! With that amount, not only did we pay for the Fantasolab Screenwriting Lab, but we also have additional funds to start covering research and concept art commissions!
However, if you're still interested in sending in a tip for the video, I won't say no and would appreciate it immensely, but that's up to you! Links in the description ☺
this is a great video, I’ve made videos on my own channel about the same subject. What I think is interesting here, though, is that most of the examples you give for diverse and interesting representation come from comedies. I don’t think this is a subject of misery versus joy. I think this is a subject of quality storytelling versus heteronormative placeholders.
WOW I FINISHED THIS ONE HOUR ESSAY. WOW. YET I WANT MORE. WOW. WOW. WOW. Lots of insights, questions, and thoughts you brought here. Kudos!
I'm writing a book and a lot of the themes are about the relationships I had with other women growing up. How queer girls often have abusive relationships with eachother before they have the words to understand that what they're experiencing is a relationship. I've had so many friendships with girls where it was so close to being romantic, the jealousy that you didn't have any right to feel because you're just friends, they're allowed other friends. The frustration that you didn't feel seen but you couldn't say how. I wanted to be the most special person to them. I didn't even know what a lesbian was until I was 12, I knew I was different and that everyone around me knew I was different. When I found out it was because I was being bullied for being a lesbian.
I had a conversation with my old therapist about my relationship to horror as a genre and my interest in the macarbe. How it comforts me because I'm so used to being in hell I decided to make a home there so it didn't seem that bad. I enjoy queer joy but queer misery is cathartic, I don't want to dream I want to be seen.
Gay men with AIDS were often abandoned by the gay world. This happened particularly as gay men became exhausted by the epidemic. Let's not romanticise what happened. I was there, I had AIDS and when my health status became obvious, I was abandoned by one and many. The people who tended to stand by me were straight friends who were not exhausted and a few lesbian friends from a support group I had been a member of prior to my own health crisis. This was my story but was clearly the story of many. Don't be seduced by images of thousands on the streets of Melbourne, my home town, holding candles on !st December, or by what might occur in films like "Holding The Man". Homophobia does not stop with straight people, gay men and women are human too.
I would like to clarify that although Queen Ann is certainly rumoured to be (and likely was) queer, The Favourite is in no way an accurate depiction of her life, reign or (and I cannot stress this last one enough) her character!!!!!
Joyland (2022) is the movie about queer misery. Never related to anything this much. Must watch!
You should watch Fellow Travelers- it’ll definitely be up your alley!
Wow this was an amazing video! I agree, "good representation" is so often so boring.
I love the angst and weirdness in so much queer media because that's real. Living as a queer person is often weird and messy.
Man, I don't really care all that much about whether it's comically tragic or saccharine, I just want more art with aspec protagonists😭
Really great video.
I turned off after the wiping out of Larry Kramer's title for his novel. I also have a slight nausea about films that are supposedly ' supportive ' of same sex relationships aimed at straights. You named many. Independent cinema and theatre is for me far more interesting. Very often made by US and not them. Films lost to most people but treasured and brought out detached from straight ' approval. ' French cinema divorced from mainstream concerns has made many. One example of REAL gay misery is ' Stand ' in Russian made outside of Russia for obvious reasons.
Saw a movie called Between love and goodbye when I was a closeted teen, barely had access to any gay friendly content back in the 00' in fact ; well, talking about misery, this movie was excrutiating
There's nothing wrong with showing queer misery, but there's a big problem when all we get is this, like in the past when we only had this kind of representation, and by the way, this representation was more like a cautionary tale like "look, if you're gay, you're going to die, whether from AIDS or alone" and that's my problem with movies and shows that only portray queer suffering (specially gay). they weren't trying to show real life, they were trying to scare us and I was afraid of dying of AIDS (at that time) or being alone and unhappy for most of my life. we deserve fluffy and innocent stories too.
I'm not a fan of "queer misery" or really any misery in the media I consume (unless I'm in the mood for a good horror), but you did bring up points that I had milling around in my head that I couldn't quite put forth. And yeah, I agree, what I love about these kind of films is the introspection, to see that our misery is a shared experienced and that we aren't alone. So thank you for this!
Also congrats on raising the money! I'm so excited to see what comes of that film! I would also love if you're able to, look at the list of media/books you're researching. I've been trying to incorporate more Latinx/culture/heritage in both fantasy and sci-fi (the genres I mainly work in) in the TTRPG world, but my Spanish literacy is mainly aural than reading, it makes it hard for me. I understand if you're keeping it all under the belt too~
my two favorite musicals are the rocky horror show and falsettos (ft in trousers) ....you know how it is((there are two wolves)))
I kept checking my phone every time that grindr bit came around lmao.
You’ve put a lot of work into this video and it shows. There were moments where what you were saying hit me in gay places I hadn’t felt before. I really enjoyed this. Felt like watching a seasoned video essayist. Hope you blow up cause it’d be well deserved.
26:18 ayyyy my brother was in my hometown’s adaption of Fun Home when he was 11. I’m glad he had that representation at that age. He’s still only 14 now, so we don’t know yet if he needed it, but I’m glad he had it.