I have had a BYD 16.6 HVM with a Goodwe 10KL-ET inverter since August this year, and have had 4 powercuts (we live rurally in NZ) and it sailed through when power went off and came back on without a blink except when it came on the very last time. Note I have power quality issues on the local distribution network too, and the BYD appears to protect itself pretty well from what I understand.
I have the gen24 byd system have you set up any systems to allow integration of ev charging to utilise ev tariff and not draw down on battery during low tariff rates?
Yes. Its pretty easy to do. You can set the maximum/minimum charge rates for the batteries during the cheap period. You would just set the maximum discharge to zero during the low price period. What we have done for a few customers is have the battery set to charge from the grid during the cheap period if its during the day as this can supplement the solar on overcast days,
Good to hear the pros and cons of the Tesla Powerwall 3 and the BYD battery and Fronius Inverter and power management systems. Australia seems more encouraging than NZ in the Solar connections to home car and grid. We use the same Electrical standards so we should be able to catch up quickly.
The whole AS/NZS thing seems to be a way of capturing us when we use similar systems to EU.But cannot access some of the innovation happening there e.g. the Battery Emulator project
Just had a 10kw system installed with a Tesla 13.5 kw battery. As a big coincidence, the second day we had a blackout, and the system performed perfectly. I didn't know until I saw the message from the Tesla App. No pause in power, just instant and works. Just fantastic. Just would have liked a bigger battery, for winter.
One more thing, what is the Fronius/BYD combo like for adapting to load changes vs the Tesla? Have seen some Fronius Gen24 (especially 3 phase) have a slow reaction time to load changes. So they tend to use more power from the grid then the battery when you hit them with a load change, ie hot plate cycling, even though the load is well within what the inverter can deliver.
That is a very good question and one that Mark and I could possibly test. I wonder if there is a simple way to do that. I doubt the difference would be significant overall but 0.1kWh here or there does add up. A small delay is normal even for my TPW2s.
In the Fronius + BYD combo, can you set up the system to export excess solar, and only solar to the grid, up to the line's companies export limit (say 5kWh), and use the battery and solar to cover the home's loads, i.e. to prevent the import of power on the higher day rate (24c). Any solar above the 5kWh export cap would charge the battery. The reason I ask is my night rate (11c) is less than the solar export rate (12c), so I would want to cover all my day power with the battery/solar, and sell as much excess power back to the grid during the day to go in credit for the night charging of the battery. For reference, I have 10kW of panels into an 8kW Fronius inverter.
Very soon hopefully, we're finalising indicative pricing and then overhauling our solar and battery webpages to merge them together now that the Tesla Powerwall 3 combines it all.
Could someone please answer my question? We're building an all-electric home in Melbourne's south-east, opted in to use three-phase power. Now I'm doubting if I truly need the 3-phase. We are installing a 10kw solar system and considering putting the Tesla P3 as a battery backup. My concern is that one phase can power all of our electrical appliances, including heat pumps and split systems [23sq single storey home].Thank you!
3-Phase has both its advantages and disadvantages. It mostly depends on your load requirements as to what is best for you. If its a large house with a ducted AC system, plans for a pool with a heat pump, EVs etc then 3-phase is the way to go as you will have a higher draw capacity if needed. That said most houses are single-phase and run just fine. Personally, I am on single-phase, use an average of 50kWh a day, have 12kW solar + 2x TPW2s, 2x EVs and am fully electric for cooking and hot water (heat pump). So it can be done on a single-phase connection. I would go 3-phase myself if I had the choice. While TPW3 is single-phase backup only now. There are some other great inverter/battery alternatives you could consider. My best advice is to find a reputable local installer and pay them to rough-in as part of the build and advise you as to the best solution for your needs. Don't get the builders sparky to pre-wire for solar. mcelectrical.com.au/blog/solar-on-a-new-build-home/
On another note, with the Fronius and BYD, can you choose different times that it will stop exporting surplus power if they bring in that rule where you will be charged for exporting during the day?
There is functionality to do just that with Fronius and Catch Control. The same Catch Control that we use as a hot water relay is also enables some of these more advanced features. I do suspect that as negative feed-in tariffs become more common, this functionality will also be native to Fronius with over-the-air updates.
Im live in Darwin with 3 phsae power into the house and currently have a 6.6kW system with a Fronius 5kW single phase inverter. I was looking at upgrading my system adding 14kW of panels and using the new Sungrow SH15T 3 phase inverter and the new SBH150 or SBH200 Sungrow battery. This theoretically would allow me to keep my existing panels to increase the input to 20kW. Have you had any experience with the new Sungrow inverter and 5kW battery modules? Also reading the specs it seems to allow you to power the whole house on all phases during a blackout compared to the previous Sungrow battery and inverter that I was told limited your blackout power to 1000W. Does this sound about right? Would you recommend to go with the biggest battery option you can afford or would this be a waste of money? Unfortunately we pay a flat 27.x cents/kWh regardless the time with a feed in rate at 8.5 cents/kWh limited to 7kWhr/day. With my current thinking right or wrong the more battery the better as long as your system can supply your daytime power requirements as well as charge your battery for night time use and not draw a kWh from ther grid? Is this a reasonable way of thinking or is it way off?
We stopped selling Sungrow products due to their support structures and constant issues and bugs with their software. From what I understand, these bugs have not lessened and still require intervention from installation companies to constantly follow up Sungrow for resolutions. Fronius offer much greater support. Still have issues and bugs, but they deal with them in a very professional manner. If you can, go the Fronius GEN24 + BYD combo, but consult a reputable solar & battery installer to work out the best size for your property's needs. SolarQuotes vets the companies they recommend, so start there: www.solarquotes.com.au/installers/cities/darwin/
Hi Mark/Yorick, does it make sense to just have a battery without solar connections? Like charging up the battery during off peak and use that for the house and the car?
Hi Jacob, It's a concept that I thought about. You would either require an electricity plan that has a guaranteed period of free power (OVO for example which is what I do personally) or use a provider that matches the wholesale electricity price like Amber and their Smart Shift. A battery system that was optimised for price/kWh of storage with a rapid rate of charge & discharge would be ideal. In theory, it could make sense financially but I think it works best at scale. You would essentially be day trading the electricity market which is how most of the utility battery systems make money.
Great video, is there a way to know if the Fronius/BYD system is in its full back up mode? If you weren't home and missed the few seconds where the power was off, how else would you know? Does the app tell you like the tesla system?
I think it's fair to say that this is a point to Tesla. There is currently no notification or indication on the Fronius SolarWeb app to indicate that you are in backup mode. One of our customers last week had their local transformer hit by lightning and was in backup for over 12 hours. It was a great test of the Fronius + BYD combo. All that changes in the Fronius app is that lit looks like your system is set to zero export/import mode where the solar production follows the house load. I wished there was a pop-up icon or a slash through the grid symbol to indicate a loss of grid connection.
You’d think you can report this to Fronius as a ‘failure report’ of some sort so they can add/fix this. Is this the sort of thing that Fronius are good at doing? In the way of adding or fixing things?
@@00030263 Fronius is notoriously slow in making software changes. Mostly because everything that Fronius does when it comes to cyber security must be 100%. That said I would be nice if they made it clearer than just a fault code email.
After having solar from you guys my bill at the most is $80 and that includes service charges. So $50 per month. The absolute most I can save is $6000 over 10 years.
does that assume static power prices, power prices will increase every year. My concern is I see power companies moveing thier cost into daily supply charges, so pushing up the power bill agian regardless of your local storage. At that point I would be looking at 1 - 2 10+ KW diesel generator puls battery + solar, just so I could cut the power line to the suppliers.
I wish you had talked about charging during a blackout... I have 3phase and have been told the Tesla battery will not charge from my panels during a blackout but a BYD would...seem pointless if it was a multi day power out
That was the case for PW2 which was AC-coupled only. PW2 could not keep a 3-phase inverter active. PW3 being DC-coupled to the array would charge but you would only have power on 1 of your 3 phases. So all your backup would have to be single-phase circuits only and all moved to the phase that is backed up. Still EPS backup but not full house. Sorry that this was not explained better in this video.
@@shiningone3538 Happy to help. There's rumours of a PW3 3-phase but untill its official unveiled and available in Australia ill believe it when I see it.
Tesla told me the same when they installed the battery into my 3 phase home and I so lived with solar going off line in a grid outage. Then I installed another second inverter and that installer changed the setup so the solar worked during a grid outage! It is well known in Victoria at least that Tesla have a particular interpretation of the rules.
@@mickjoebillsIn QLD you are allowed to do it with multiple single phase inverters. Energy-Queensland wants no more than a 5kW phase discrepancy. That said logically the battery would be suppressing any phase imbalance but thats not how the rules are written here in QLD. But I won't say anything if you don't. 😉
We stopped selling Sungrow products due to their support structures and constant issues and bugs with their software. From what I understand, these bugs have not lessened and still require intervention from installation companies to constantly follow up Sungrow for resolutions. Fronius offer much greater support. Still have issues and bugs, but they deal with them in a very professional manner.
Next time I get to speak with a Tesla rep I will ask that exact question. Logically distilled would definitely be better fresh which in turn would be better than salty. It's really only that temporary and low-level flooding should not instantly write off a PW3. Good question!
@ I asked because not all flood waters are completely fresh and some are a mix including salt and brine. I note Florida storms sparked many house fires.
@@twinrotors I agree its a good question. It may be stipulated in the PW3 warranty documentation or installation guidelines. Ill see if I can find out what the case is for Australia. Warranties often vary depending on the country.
@@twinrotors We took a quick look into it. The installation manual does not mention salt or proximity to the coast (panels/inverters/batteries have guidance regarding salt mist spray). But it does say not to install it in an area that floods. Sorry that I do not have a better answer for you.
I think I can confidently say that they will not make home storage redundant. Home storage and V2G/V2H will will by a symbiotic relationship. You'll almost certainly want both because it will be a better system combined.
@@BLD999 V2G/V2H can only really replace home storage if you can charge your car for free during the day. We are really just starting to transition out of the early adopters stage for batteries. I suspect that like solar batteries will become mainstream like rooftop PV. Regardless if you own an EV with V2X or not I think home storage will become more advantageous. Only time will tell.
@@Yorick_Markthe way I see it is, car arrives home with probably 80% charge at 6pm, runs the house all evening. Come 1am to 5am it full recharges on 6c electricity and it is ready to go in the morning. For me it means a home battery would have very minimal use and the payback would become huge. This is all in theory and we need to see what VTX actually looks like when it arrives.
Great info, can you do a review of Sigenergy's new battery. The first of its kind 25kw DC EV charger that connects to it is pretty epic and the inverter is encased in the same stack.
Turns out I’m in Shanghai at the moment. We had a Sigenergy tour yesterday. Got to record the whole factory tour. I’m recording our review tomorrow. And yes I’ll get one to test. Pretty interesting product
@mcelectrical awesome thank you. I hope you can get into the Gateway as well. I would like to know how or if it can supply your home with let's say 10kW of power when energex only lets you feed back into the grid a max of 5kW. That's got me stumped.
@@davidbrookes9424 Yeah a 10kW SigEnergy inverter would be able to supply 10kW. But so would a Fronius Primo 10kW or a PW3. It's just the export flow rate that is limited. If you use it directly from your solar the cap is the inverter size and how much power your panels can produce at the time and the discharge rate of the battery.
You are bang on the money. Labour is expensive and an easier install & commission helps a lot in keeping prices down. With that said there will always be a minimum level of fixed work required regardless of how easy the commissioning process is.
I purchased a 10Kw Fronius system 3 years & was told it was battery ready but only on 1 phase unless I want 3 batteries. I also installed a Tesla charger & found the dedicated solar companies to charge outrageous cost to install the charger. I find the whole industry dishonest & ripping off unsuspecting customers for what is not really a complex installation after all a Tesla Wall Connector is 5 wires
That’s a bit harsh tarring us all with the same brush. When installing a ev charger, it’s easy to cut corners. We would often put it on a 40 amp rcbo and run 10mm. This way it’s compliant and ready to charge at max capacity. That makes it more complex. I know many sparkles will just give you 16amps per phase. That probably suits many cars today and makes the job much easier and cheaper - but not really compliant.
Yeh the strange thing about Powerwall is they don’t officially state the chemistry in Australia - just in case they want to swap it in the future. But it’s LFP at the moment -or so I’m told. So that’s safe.
I disagree with the notion that a Tesla battery and single phase Fronius is of limited value in a 3phase home. It is safe and possible to put essential appliances on one phase. It is far easier to control usage during an outage as you have already excluded the hungry appliances such as aircon and ovens ect. As is stated on the video sometimes a grid outage is not obvious so it is possible to put a higher drain on the battery than is desirable if you are unaware, especially if you are not at home to manually switch off equipment. In our case, all lighting and a ring main water pump and fire pumps are on one phase. A $50 portable induction cooktop serves as emergency cooking. It is early days for V2H so will be interesting to see how /if v2L will integrate!
We have many installs with Tesla Powerwalls on 3-phase. The single-phase backup was not the main issue. We usually recommend limited backup regardless of the battery system for the sole purpose of not draining the battery to0 quickly or overloading the battery. The issue with the PW3 on 3-phase at this stage is that it is a 10kW single-phase inverter but we may not have more than a 5kW discrepancy between phases (Energy Queensland regs). So either we must software limit the PW3 to a software-locked 5kW inverter (includes in backup) or we need 3 x PW3s to have 10kW per phase. While we have the Fronius SYMO GEN24 option that can do synchronised 3-phase backup its hard to recommend the PW3 on 3-phase. I'd say if you must have a PW3 and have 3-Phase, be patient as we have been told a 3-phase specific Powerwall model is on its way.
Just to be clear - the Wattpilot $AU2000 ($1700 for the EVSE and $300 for the cable on special) by the time you add in a cable and the Tesla 3 Wall charger $AU750. So Fronius not really trying to compete with EVSEs. The Wattpilot really only makes sense if you are going Fronius Symo etc.
I completely agree as well. The fact is that there are multible ways to have a charge on solar functionality. It's just a big value add having everything on the one platform.
Good question. First I assume that is their COST per kWh of a battery cell. Profit not included. Second, car batteries are not designed to cycle a full cycle per day. They are lower quality, more affordable. Also the Powerwall isn’t just a battery cell. It also needs a gateway, inverter, bms, casing, heat sink, fans, app development, marketing, warranty etc. Does all of that add up to an extra $900 per kW? Seems steep but apparently it does. I also assume the profit margin on Powerwall is pretty reasonable.
Few differences not discussed here. Or fully at least. Fore blackouts are not a problem they are so rare these days. Secondly most people’s houses are single phase so that’s moot too. Accepted rural properties are 3 phase but they usually have enough money to do whatever. I have byd and fronius but Tesla better to work with the likes of amber. Byd and fronius now supported but I have two inverters so not supported by amber.
Yeh I generally agree. Our number from memory are about 25 percent of our customers are 3 phase. Most people in South East QLD have pretty stable power, but some of our battery customers have multiple blackouts a year. Some have gone for several days without grid power. I also have 2 (3phase) Fromius inverters and want to go on amber that will come hopefully soon.
I just switched from a fronius primo to a powerwall3. The only downside to the powerwall is the lack of built in nerd tools. Fronius can send data to different systems based on a bunch of triggers. No opportunity for that from the Tesla which is a real shame.
Everyone! kW is a unit of power, kWh is a unit of energy! You can't measure the capacity of a battery in kW, although the inverter has a power limit in kW. :) While we are here the W in kW is capitalised... Thanks!
I have seen my LED downlights briefly dim when backup kicks in but I also can sometimes can see the pulsing of the ripple signal when off-peak kicks on and off (In QLD we have ripple-controlled off-peak circuits). They are dimmable LED lights which may play a factor.
Is there any non-Chinese inverters and batteries that can be compared to Tesla? I've had enough of Chinese made stuff, their quality is usually low and warranty is hard to claim.
I guess that claim needs to be qualified. What I mean a quality battery can pay itself off within the warranty period. That’s pretty hard to calculate but if you take VPP’s and the rising cost of energy into account, it seems fairly achievable when sized correctly.
We are finally reaching that tipping point in QLD where the ROI can be less than 10 years, even for there more premium battery systems. For customers where emergency backup power is a factor its a well worth it. For many people its more than just a lower power bill.
batteries are even better in your case because a smaller battery will cover most of your cost. plus charging the battery for free on a rainy day means essentially no pesky demand tarrifs. Im personally on the same plan. With an average daily consumption of ~50kWh my last bill was $3 ($43) without my referal discount
GoodWe three phase hybrid inverter plus GoodWe battery destroys both of your options by some margin. I suggest a system over 20kW if you have a fully electric house & 2x electric cars
Yeh probably on paper. But when I tested a goodwe inverter a few years ago i wasn’t impressed. It ran really hot internally (longevity concerns) and it didn’t have a gmppt so was pretty bad at handling shade. Maybe I’m wrong but from my testing, fronius outperforms everything except SMA.
I would also add that when it comes to an investment like a battery where there is an increased risk if something were to fail. Getting a high-quality and most importantly reliable product is key. It's not just a functionality/cost decision. It's a safety thing too.
@@mcelectrical GoodWe three phase hybrid inverters trailblaze both Tesla & Fronius. The latter are trying (?) to catch up. And correct me if I’m wrong but neither Tesla or Fronius do true 3 phase (back up ANY circuit on ALL 3 phases)
@@sanjaygupta666 Fronius GEN24 does true synchronised 3-phase backup. You can run 3-phase appliances/motors off the Fronius. Tesla does not (maybe soon with a 3-ph PW3???)
Guys, when you talk about the batteries and systems, you need to start including information on battery chemistries used in the units you are talking about. To me, the BYD's look like sturdy safer prismatic LiFePo4 cells big plus FTW, the Tesla, looks like [only god and elon knows what chemistry] pouch cells, could be the house burner NMC still for all we know even in latest powerwalls, either way, that size, they are clearly pouch cells, so make sure its well protected :)
Tesla doesn't officially list the TPW3 chemistry in Australia but the TPW3 is LFP chemistry at this stage. I don't know off the top of my head if it's pouch/prismatic but its an incredibly energy-dense package so I suspect that it is. The older TPW2 is NMC cylindrical cells that are water jacketed just like the Tesla BEV packs. The TPW2 thermal management system is far more complex compared to the TPW3.
Everything fronius looks bad, but that wattpilot is terrible. It’s expensive but looks like a toy. Software is good with fronius but fronius price themselves out of the market.
The maths does vary heavily based on personal circumstances, your local power rates for both feed-in and export as well as what value you place on features like EPS backup or greater self-sufficiency. Batteries are not the right fit for everyone,Tesla or otherwise but the maths is starting to tip in the direction to where for a lot of consumers it is a matter of when not if.
@@pokemongoprofessoroak7792 That's a tough position to be in but a relatable one for many people I talk to. There are some pretty fantastic non-tesla EVs out there. I have test-driven quite a few now.
But do you still buy from Amazon, with Bezos treatment of staff, or petrol and energy from fossil companies, or vehicles from likes of Toyota that have CEOs that hide and actively promote and profit from climate denial?
None of the power walls are cost effective for me, and likely never will be with how often I turn over homes, and what’s left of my life, power is cheap off the grid with some basic panels.
Dont stress. No one is forcing anyone to buy a battery. I am also very excited about the future of V2G/V2L. But, I do believe more and more that home battery + EV V2G/H will be a symbiotic pairing and most likely people will have both as prices continue to fall. Only time will tell.
You make a good point, we were just at the SigEnergy factory and seems V2G is only a few years away. Do you think there will be no use case for home storage when V2G and V2H arrives?
I’m only new to this topic but I can imagine the scenario of free charging the home storage battery during the day while the vehicle is out and about then mostly using the home battery for peak power times in the evening and yet knowing that you have additional capacity with your EV v2x if needed eg a blackout or extended overcast/ no sunshine; and then even discharging what’s left stored in your home battery into the car (all free) then charging the Home battery up again with next days sunshine. Is all that plausible or am I missing something?🤔 14:16
@@petedawborn I think you hit the nail on the head. The V2X should allow for the car to supplement the home battery. I could even imagine that your car could be used as a power transfer system where you may charge in a location with power to your home that could be in an extended blackout due to a natural disaster.
@@dallasdrew2390 Neither absolute position is correct here. Musk has developed some amazing products, that arguably are an improvement, especially StarLink. That he is has some quite unpleasant views and that X is a cesspool is also true.
But do you still buy from Amazon, with Bezos treatment of staff, or petrol and energy from fossil companies, or vehicles from likes of Toyota that have CEOs that hide and actively promote and profit from climate denial?
I have had a BYD 16.6 HVM with a Goodwe 10KL-ET inverter since August this year, and have had 4 powercuts (we live rurally in NZ) and it sailed through when power went off and came back on without a blink except when it came on the very last time. Note I have power quality issues on the local distribution network too, and the BYD appears to protect itself pretty well from what I understand.
Nice, BYD / Goodwe is pretty rare in Australia from what I know.
I have the gen24 byd system have you set up any systems to allow integration of ev charging to utilise ev tariff and not draw down on battery during low tariff rates?
Yes. Its pretty easy to do. You can set the maximum/minimum charge rates for the batteries during the cheap period. You would just set the maximum discharge to zero during the low price period. What we have done for a few customers is have the battery set to charge from the grid during the cheap period if its during the day as this can supplement the solar on overcast days,
Good to hear the pros and cons of the Tesla Powerwall 3 and the BYD battery and Fronius Inverter and power management systems. Australia seems more encouraging than NZ in the Solar connections to home car and grid. We use the same Electrical standards so we should be able to catch up quickly.
The whole AS/NZS thing seems to be a way of capturing us when we use similar systems to EU.But cannot access some of the innovation happening there e.g. the Battery Emulator project
Just had a 10kw system installed with a Tesla 13.5 kw battery. As a big coincidence, the second day we had a blackout, and the system performed perfectly. I didn't know until I saw the message from the Tesla App. No pause in power, just instant and works. Just fantastic. Just would have liked a bigger battery, for winter.
Yeh the changeover is sweet. You’ll be able to get an expansion pack next year!
What a great test of the Tesla EPS backup system the day after your system was installed. It really shows the value of quality battery installs.
GoodWe is better, more powerful & cheaper. And instantaneous changeover also.
@@sanjaygupta666 Wait to you hear about SigEnergy
One more thing, what is the Fronius/BYD combo like for adapting to load changes vs the Tesla? Have seen some Fronius Gen24 (especially 3 phase) have a slow reaction time to load changes. So they tend to use more power from the grid then the battery when you hit them with a load change, ie hot plate cycling, even though the load is well within what the inverter can deliver.
That is a very good question and one that Mark and I could possibly test. I wonder if there is a simple way to do that. I doubt the difference would be significant overall but 0.1kWh here or there does add up. A small delay is normal even for my TPW2s.
In the Fronius + BYD combo, can you set up the system to export excess solar, and only solar to the grid, up to the line's companies export limit (say 5kWh), and use the battery and solar to cover the home's loads, i.e. to prevent the import of power on the higher day rate (24c). Any solar above the 5kWh export cap would charge the battery.
The reason I ask is my night rate (11c) is less than the solar export rate (12c), so I would want to cover all my day power with the battery/solar, and sell as much excess power back to the grid during the day to go in credit for the night charging of the battery.
For reference, I have 10kW of panels into an 8kW Fronius inverter.
Short answer is yes! But you need to add a catch power relay, and that does the work.
Great work guys. Just wondering when you'll update your website to reflect the Powerwall 3 prices and latest package options & prices?
Very soon hopefully, we're finalising indicative pricing and then overhauling our solar and battery webpages to merge them together now that the Tesla Powerwall 3 combines it all.
Can the Fronius Symo Gen 24 power just 2 phases in a home with a 2 phase connection?
It can not.
Could someone please answer my question? We're building an all-electric home in Melbourne's south-east, opted in to use three-phase power. Now I'm doubting if I truly need the 3-phase. We are installing a 10kw solar system and considering putting the Tesla P3 as a battery backup. My concern is that one phase can power all of our electrical appliances, including heat pumps and split systems [23sq single storey home].Thank you!
3-Phase has both its advantages and disadvantages. It mostly depends on your load requirements as to what is best for you. If its a large house with a ducted AC system, plans for a pool with a heat pump, EVs etc then 3-phase is the way to go as you will have a higher draw capacity if needed. That said most houses are single-phase and run just fine. Personally, I am on single-phase, use an average of 50kWh a day, have 12kW solar + 2x TPW2s, 2x EVs and am fully electric for cooking and hot water (heat pump). So it can be done on a single-phase connection. I would go 3-phase myself if I had the choice. While TPW3 is single-phase backup only now. There are some other great inverter/battery alternatives you could consider. My best advice is to find a reputable local installer and pay them to rough-in as part of the build and advise you as to the best solution for your needs. Don't get the builders sparky to pre-wire for solar. mcelectrical.com.au/blog/solar-on-a-new-build-home/
@@Yorick_Mark Thanks for the reply ..much appreciated!
@dan23haslin25 Happy to help.
On another note, with the Fronius and BYD, can you choose different times that it will stop exporting surplus power if they bring in that rule where you will be charged for exporting during the day?
There is functionality to do just that with Fronius and Catch Control. The same Catch Control that we use as a hot water relay is also enables some of these more advanced features. I do suspect that as negative feed-in tariffs become more common, this functionality will also be native to Fronius with over-the-air updates.
Im live in Darwin with 3 phsae power into the house and currently have a 6.6kW system with a Fronius 5kW single phase inverter. I was looking at upgrading my system adding 14kW of panels and using the new Sungrow SH15T 3 phase inverter and the new SBH150 or SBH200 Sungrow battery. This theoretically would allow me to keep my existing panels to increase the input to 20kW. Have you had any experience with the new Sungrow inverter and 5kW battery modules? Also reading the specs it seems to allow you to power the whole house on all phases during a blackout compared to the previous Sungrow battery and inverter that I was told limited your blackout power to 1000W. Does this sound about right? Would you recommend to go with the biggest battery option you can afford or would this be a waste of money? Unfortunately we pay a flat 27.x cents/kWh regardless the time with a feed in rate at 8.5 cents/kWh limited to 7kWhr/day. With my current thinking right or wrong the more battery the better as long as your system can supply your daytime power requirements as well as charge your battery for night time use and not draw a kWh from ther grid? Is this a reasonable way of thinking or is it way off?
We stopped selling Sungrow products due to their support structures and constant issues and bugs with their software. From what I understand, these bugs have not lessened and still require intervention from installation companies to constantly follow up Sungrow for resolutions.
Fronius offer much greater support. Still have issues and bugs, but they deal with them in a very professional manner. If you can, go the Fronius GEN24 + BYD combo, but consult a reputable solar & battery installer to work out the best size for your property's needs.
SolarQuotes vets the companies they recommend, so start there: www.solarquotes.com.au/installers/cities/darwin/
Hi Mark/Yorick, does it make sense to just have a battery without solar connections? Like charging up the battery during off peak and use that for the house and the car?
Hi Jacob, It's a concept that I thought about. You would either require an electricity plan that has a guaranteed period of free power (OVO for example which is what I do personally) or use a provider that matches the wholesale electricity price like Amber and their Smart Shift. A battery system that was optimised for price/kWh of storage with a rapid rate of charge & discharge would be ideal. In theory, it could make sense financially but I think it works best at scale. You would essentially be day trading the electricity market which is how most of the utility battery systems make money.
Great video, is there a way to know if the Fronius/BYD system is in its full back up mode? If you weren't home and missed the few seconds where the power was off, how else would you know? Does the app tell you like the tesla system?
I think it's fair to say that this is a point to Tesla. There is currently no notification or indication on the Fronius SolarWeb app to indicate that you are in backup mode. One of our customers last week had their local transformer hit by lightning and was in backup for over 12 hours. It was a great test of the Fronius + BYD combo. All that changes in the Fronius app is that lit looks like your system is set to zero export/import mode where the solar production follows the house load. I wished there was a pop-up icon or a slash through the grid symbol to indicate a loss of grid connection.
It will show up in the events email the system sends you.
@@itinerantAlien That's good to know. Thanks 🙂
You’d think you can report this to Fronius as a ‘failure report’ of some sort so they can add/fix this. Is this the sort of thing that Fronius are good at doing? In the way of adding or fixing things?
@@00030263 Fronius is notoriously slow in making software changes. Mostly because everything that Fronius does when it comes to cyber security must be 100%. That said I would be nice if they made it clearer than just a fault code email.
Have you reviewed the sigenergy unit?
Not yet but soon.
Mark and Yorick grilled them at the Signergy factory tour last week, vlog coming soon: facebook.com/share/p/19UfhvEXcp/
If you already have a GEN24 inverter installed, would you recommend a BYD stack? Of is still a matter of "it depends"?
Yes we would recommend retrofitting a BYD stack and unlocking the GEN24, rather than removing your GEN24 to install a Tesla Powerwall 3.
Thank you for this very informative video. Cheers!
Glad you found it useful!
Great video guys!
Glad you enjoyed it!
After having solar from you guys my bill at the most is $80 and that includes service charges. So $50 per month. The absolute most I can save is $6000 over 10 years.
I am glad that your solar is working well for you. We always love to hear from happy customers. 😄
does that assume static power prices, power prices will increase every year. My concern is I see power companies moveing thier cost into daily supply charges, so pushing up the power bill agian regardless of your local storage. At that point I would be looking at 1 - 2 10+ KW diesel generator puls battery + solar, just so I could cut the power line to the suppliers.
I wish you had talked about charging during a blackout... I have 3phase and have been told the Tesla battery will not charge from my panels during a blackout but a BYD would...seem pointless if it was a multi day power out
That was the case for PW2 which was AC-coupled only. PW2 could not keep a 3-phase inverter active. PW3 being DC-coupled to the array would charge but you would only have power on 1 of your 3 phases. So all your backup would have to be single-phase circuits only and all moved to the phase that is backed up. Still EPS backup but not full house. Sorry that this was not explained better in this video.
@Yorick_Mark thank you...I Can live with that.. The 3phase is only used for a pump
@@shiningone3538 Happy to help. There's rumours of a PW3 3-phase but untill its official unveiled and available in Australia ill believe it when I see it.
Tesla told me the same when they installed the battery into my 3 phase home and I so lived with solar going off line in a grid outage. Then I installed another second inverter and that installer changed the setup so the solar worked during a grid outage! It is well known in Victoria at least that Tesla have a particular interpretation of the rules.
@@mickjoebillsIn QLD you are allowed to do it with multiple single phase inverters. Energy-Queensland wants no more than a 5kW phase discrepancy. That said logically the battery would be suppressing any phase imbalance but thats not how the rules are written here in QLD. But I won't say anything if you don't. 😉
Why would you leave out Sungrow?
We stopped selling Sungrow products due to their support structures and constant issues and bugs with their software. From what I understand, these bugs have not lessened and still require intervention from installation companies to constantly follow up Sungrow for resolutions. Fronius offer much greater support. Still have issues and bugs, but they deal with them in a very professional manner.
@mcelectrical can Tesla be in salt water? Or fresh water only?
Next time I get to speak with a Tesla rep I will ask that exact question. Logically distilled would definitely be better fresh which in turn would be better than salty. It's really only that temporary and low-level flooding should not instantly write off a PW3. Good question!
@ I asked because not all flood waters are completely fresh and some are a mix including salt and brine. I note Florida storms sparked many house fires.
@@twinrotors I agree its a good question. It may be stipulated in the PW3 warranty documentation or installation guidelines. Ill see if I can find out what the case is for Australia. Warranties often vary depending on the country.
@@twinrotors We took a quick look into it. The installation manual does not mention salt or proximity to the coast (panels/inverters/batteries have guidance regarding salt mist spray). But it does say not to install it in an area that floods. Sorry that I do not have a better answer for you.
where is your company based in.
Brisbane, Australia
I’m in a bit of a holding pattern, waiting to see if VTG makes home batteries redundant or if they should still be used as a complete solution.
I think I can confidently say that they will not make home storage redundant. Home storage and V2G/V2H will will by a symbiotic relationship. You'll almost certainly want both because it will be a better system combined.
@@Yorick_Markit would definitely be better but how much better at what expense is the question.
@@BLD999 V2G/V2H can only really replace home storage if you can charge your car for free during the day. We are really just starting to transition out of the early adopters stage for batteries. I suspect that like solar batteries will become mainstream like rooftop PV. Regardless if you own an EV with V2X or not I think home storage will become more advantageous. Only time will tell.
@@Yorick_Markthe way I see it is, car arrives home with probably 80% charge at 6pm, runs the house all evening. Come 1am to 5am it full recharges on 6c electricity and it is ready to go in the morning. For me it means a home battery would have very minimal use and the payback would become huge. This is all in theory and we need to see what VTX actually looks like when it arrives.
@BLD999 its exciting times
Great info, can you do a review of Sigenergy's new battery. The first of its kind 25kw DC EV charger that connects to it is pretty epic and the inverter is encased in the same stack.
Yes we can. We just went the Sigenergy factory in Shanghai last week and recorded a review. Should be out in December.
Really great video chaps, if and when I am “forced” into some kind of EV, I will opt for a hybrid
Thanks Graham. Is that because you drive long distances? Or because you don’t like the thought of an EV?
Can you guys get your hands on some sigenergy battery systems and do some videos on them? They look insane!
Turns out I’m in Shanghai at the moment. We had a Sigenergy tour yesterday. Got to record the whole factory tour. I’m recording our review tomorrow. And yes I’ll get one to test. Pretty interesting product
you may or may not see a familiar face
@mcelectrical awesome thank you. I hope you can get into the Gateway as well. I would like to know how or if it can supply your home with let's say 10kW of power when energex only lets you feed back into the grid a max of 5kW. That's got me stumped.
@@davidbrookes9424 Yeah a 10kW SigEnergy inverter would be able to supply 10kW. But so would a Fronius Primo 10kW or a PW3. It's just the export flow rate that is limited. If you use it directly from your solar the cap is the inverter size and how much power your panels can produce at the time and the discharge rate of the battery.
Hi MC,
Please state the battery chemistry of each system - that is a major deficiency of this info video.
Both batteries are LFP Chemistry. Note taken for future, Thanks
I suspect installers are going to like one solution being easier to install and commission (in one day rather than two) could be a factor in pricing.
You are bang on the money. Labour is expensive and an easier install & commission helps a lot in keeping prices down. With that said there will always be a minimum level of fixed work required regardless of how easy the commissioning process is.
How about comparing Enphase Battery backup
Yeh; we’ve got a few to do. Yorick and I have just boarded a plane to Shanghai to check out SigEnergy and IStore. We’ll add enphase to the list .
Have you taken a look at how that system works internally ?
I purchased a 10Kw Fronius system 3 years & was told it was battery ready but only on 1 phase unless I want 3 batteries. I also installed a Tesla charger & found the dedicated solar companies to charge outrageous cost to install the charger. I find the whole industry dishonest & ripping off unsuspecting customers for what is not really a complex installation after all a Tesla Wall Connector is 5 wires
That’s a bit harsh tarring us all with the same brush.
When installing a ev charger, it’s easy to cut corners. We would often put it on a 40 amp rcbo and run 10mm. This way it’s compliant and ready to charge at max capacity. That makes it more complex.
I know many sparkles will just give you 16amps per phase. That probably suits many cars today and makes the job much easier and cheaper - but not really compliant.
Thanks for the video. I would also have been interrested in firesafety! The blade battery is quite safe. How about the Tesla?
The Powerwall 3 has an LFP battery so would be fine also.
@@lavectech Thank you very much!
Yeh the strange thing about Powerwall is they don’t officially state the chemistry in Australia - just in case they want to swap it in the future. But it’s LFP at the moment -or so I’m told. So that’s safe.
Hi Mark . Could you please compare the modular stackable battery systems from Sigenstor and Sungrow?
Yeh we’re actually just on our way to SigEnergy in Shanghai at the moment. That video coming soon.
@mcelectrical enjoy the trip. Going along with Will?
I disagree with the notion that a Tesla battery and single phase Fronius is of limited value in a 3phase home.
It is safe and possible to put essential appliances on one phase.
It is far easier to control usage during an outage as you have already excluded the hungry appliances such as aircon and ovens ect.
As is stated on the video sometimes a grid outage is not obvious so it is possible to put a higher drain on the battery than is desirable if you are unaware, especially if you are not at home to manually switch off equipment.
In our case, all lighting and a ring main water pump and fire pumps are on one phase. A $50 portable induction cooktop serves as emergency cooking.
It is early days for V2H so will be interesting to see how /if v2L will integrate!
This is absolutely correct. It is MUCH easier to control backup load on one phase with a 3 phase system.
We have many installs with Tesla Powerwalls on 3-phase. The single-phase backup was not the main issue. We usually recommend limited backup regardless of the battery system for the sole purpose of not draining the battery to0 quickly or overloading the battery. The issue with the PW3 on 3-phase at this stage is that it is a 10kW single-phase inverter but we may not have more than a 5kW discrepancy between phases (Energy Queensland regs). So either we must software limit the PW3 to a software-locked 5kW inverter (includes in backup) or we need 3 x PW3s to have 10kW per phase. While we have the Fronius SYMO GEN24 option that can do synchronised 3-phase backup its hard to recommend the PW3 on 3-phase. I'd say if you must have a PW3 and have 3-Phase, be patient as we have been told a 3-phase specific Powerwall model is on its way.
@@krossbolt4100 That is true. But a lot of my customers do want full house 3-phase backup if it is an option.
Just to be clear - the Wattpilot $AU2000 ($1700 for the EVSE and $300 for the cable on special) by the time you add in a cable and the Tesla 3 Wall charger $AU750. So Fronius not really trying to compete with EVSEs. The Wattpilot really only makes sense if you are going Fronius Symo etc.
Yeh, agreeed. it’s not a cheap charger, and really only worth it if you have a Fromius inverter.
I completely agree as well. The fact is that there are multible ways to have a charge on solar functionality. It's just a big value add having everything on the one platform.
Car companies say batteries are in the $100 / kW range. Why is a powerwall still $1000 per kW?
Good question. First I assume that is their COST per kWh of a battery cell. Profit not included.
Second, car batteries are not designed to cycle a full cycle per day. They are lower quality, more affordable.
Also the Powerwall isn’t just a battery cell. It also needs a gateway, inverter, bms, casing, heat sink, fans, app development, marketing, warranty etc.
Does all of that add up to an extra $900 per kW? Seems steep but apparently it does. I also assume the profit margin on Powerwall is pretty reasonable.
@@mcelectricalAccording to Google their profit margin is 30% on the energy storage
this is why we ne V2G
Few differences not discussed here. Or fully at least. Fore blackouts are not a problem they are so rare these days. Secondly most people’s houses are single phase so that’s moot too. Accepted rural properties are 3 phase but they usually have enough money to do whatever. I have byd and fronius but Tesla better to work with the likes of amber. Byd and fronius now supported but I have two inverters so not supported by amber.
Yeh I generally agree. Our number from memory are about 25 percent of our customers are 3 phase. Most people in South East QLD have pretty stable power, but some of our battery customers have multiple blackouts a year. Some have gone for several days without grid power.
I also have 2 (3phase) Fromius inverters and want to go on amber that will come hopefully soon.
Excellent
I just switched from a fronius primo to a powerwall3.
The only downside to the powerwall is the lack of built in nerd tools.
Fronius can send data to different systems based on a bunch of triggers. No opportunity for that from the Tesla which is a real shame.
Have you tried the NetZero app. It might have what you are after.
Yeh and the customer doesn’t get dc string level monitoring. More need tools.
Everyone! kW is a unit of power, kWh is a unit of energy! You can't measure the capacity of a battery in kW, although the inverter has a power limit in kW. :) While we are here the W in kW is capitalised... Thanks!
Thanks Hugh! Mark explains the difference in this Short: ua-cam.com/users/shortsKQy761fuaMg?feature=share
Was it Mark or I that slipped up? Both of us should know better.
I'd have the BYD, thanks.
Thats fair. BYD make a good battery
The Tesla set up is great . BYD is like the very early days of android for people like to tinker with it .
It does have a real Android vs IOS feel to it for sure. I wonder where SigEnergy fits into the mix.
Sig compares to nothing else.
Tesla backup is instant, my modem and computers continue running, lights don't even flicker at all...
Yeh nice. They don’t guarantee that computers won’t crash but I have heard that they sometimes don’t.
I have seen my LED downlights briefly dim when backup kicks in but I also can sometimes can see the pulsing of the ripple signal when off-peak kicks on and off (In QLD we have ripple-controlled off-peak circuits). They are dimmable LED lights which may play a factor.
Sma vs Fronius
Waiting for the new SMA range so I can test it. That one will be a fight as big as Tyson and Paul.
@@mcelectrical Hopefully that turns out to be a more exciting fight. Will there actually be a clear winner?
Is there any non-Chinese inverters and batteries that can be compared to Tesla? I've had enough of Chinese made stuff, their quality is usually low and warranty is hard to claim.
Yeh, there will soon be a Fronius battery.
Batteries make sense financially 😂😂😂
I guess that claim needs to be qualified. What I mean a quality battery can pay itself off within the warranty period. That’s pretty hard to calculate but if you take VPP’s and the rising cost of energy into account, it seems fairly achievable when sized correctly.
We are finally reaching that tipping point in QLD where the ROI can be less than 10 years, even for there more premium battery systems. For customers where emergency backup power is a factor its a well worth it. For many people its more than just a lower power bill.
Even solar is a hard sell right now.
My power in qld is down to 8c/kw between 12-6am and completely free between 11am and 2pm.
batteries are even better in your case because a smaller battery will cover most of your cost. plus charging the battery for free on a rainy day means essentially no pesky demand tarrifs. Im personally on the same plan. With an average daily consumption of ~50kWh my last bill was $3 ($43) without my referal discount
GoodWe three phase hybrid inverter plus GoodWe battery destroys both of your options by some margin. I suggest a system over 20kW if you have a fully electric house & 2x electric cars
Yeh probably on paper. But when I tested a goodwe inverter a few years ago i wasn’t impressed. It ran really hot internally (longevity concerns) and it didn’t have a gmppt so was pretty bad at handling shade. Maybe I’m wrong but from my testing, fronius outperforms everything except SMA.
I would also add that when it comes to an investment like a battery where there is an increased risk if something were to fail. Getting a high-quality and most importantly reliable product is key. It's not just a functionality/cost decision. It's a safety thing too.
@@mcelectrical GoodWe three phase hybrid inverters trailblaze both Tesla & Fronius. The latter are trying (?) to catch up.
And correct me if I’m wrong but neither Tesla or Fronius do true 3 phase (back up ANY circuit on ALL 3 phases)
@@sanjaygupta666 Fronius GEN24 does true synchronised 3-phase backup. You can run 3-phase appliances/motors off the Fronius. Tesla does not (maybe soon with a 3-ph PW3???)
@@Yorick_Mark Fronius Gen24 Plus only does 10kW, correct? GoodWe ET does 30kW
Guys, when you talk about the batteries and systems, you need to start including information on battery chemistries used in the units you are talking about. To me, the BYD's look like sturdy safer prismatic LiFePo4 cells big plus FTW, the Tesla, looks like [only god and elon knows what chemistry] pouch cells, could be the house burner NMC still for all we know even in latest powerwalls, either way, that size, they are clearly pouch cells, so make sure its well protected :)
Tesla doesn't officially list the TPW3 chemistry in Australia but the TPW3 is LFP chemistry at this stage. I don't know off the top of my head if it's pouch/prismatic but its an incredibly energy-dense package so I suspect that it is. The older TPW2 is NMC cylindrical cells that are water jacketed just like the Tesla BEV packs. The TPW2 thermal management system is far more complex compared to the TPW3.
Everything fronius looks bad, but that wattpilot is terrible. It’s expensive but looks like a toy. Software is good with fronius but fronius price themselves out of the market.
There's a new redesign coming for the Fronius Wattpilot early 2025: facebook.com/share/v/1DPniUCb8D/
I dont have solar or a battery system just yet. But i cant see telsa being worth it.
It’s basically the best. You get what you pay for.
The maths does vary heavily based on personal circumstances, your local power rates for both feed-in and export as well as what value you place on features like EPS backup or greater self-sufficiency. Batteries are not the right fit for everyone,Tesla or otherwise but the maths is starting to tip in the direction to where for a lot of consumers it is a matter of when not if.
@@Yorick_Mark oh, mate i feel you. I just cant find a way to make tesla an option. Personal hatred for musk breaking my dream car
@@pokemongoprofessoroak7792 That's a tough position to be in but a relatable one for many people I talk to. There are some pretty fantastic non-tesla EVs out there. I have test-driven quite a few now.
Back up power... ill keep my $87 change over switch and $370 kings genny
Keep it simple. Fair call!
@mcelectrical I'm just jelly, the static switch loss less power does really sound kinda cool... but moneys haha!
Ha, yeh it is a bit of an outlay.
Put Elon Musk on a rocket to Mars and I will consider Tesla.
😂
Who cares about politics, I don't like him either but still buy his products
But do you still buy from Amazon, with Bezos treatment of staff, or petrol and energy from fossil companies, or vehicles from likes of Toyota that have CEOs that hide and actively promote and profit from climate denial?
oh, neat, you're Brisbane based
Yes we service all of South-East Queensland.
Even better, one of our expert consultants can meet you in person for a consultation.
None of the power walls are cost effective for me, and likely never will be with how often I turn over homes, and what’s left of my life, power is cheap off the grid with some basic panels.
Batteries are not always just about the money. But its a fair point.
In Ireland we're boycotting all Musk products... hopefully consumers in Australia will do the same 🙏👍
We're not
We’re hearing that more and more from customers. Obviously we’re needing options.
Not a chance. I have a Tesla and Powerwall. Elon is saving the world from intolerant woke lefties.
Why?
@@happybeerloveyou don’t speak for we
Use batteries from your EV. V2L and V2G is the future. Don’t waste your money by listening to these guys.
Dont stress. No one is forcing anyone to buy a battery. I am also very excited about the future of V2G/V2L. But, I do believe more and more that home battery + EV V2G/H will be a symbiotic pairing and most likely people will have both as prices continue to fall. Only time will tell.
You make a good point, we were just at the SigEnergy factory and seems V2G is only a few years away. Do you think there will be no use case for home storage when V2G and V2H arrives?
I’m only new to this topic but I can imagine the scenario of free charging the home storage battery during the day while the vehicle is out and about then mostly using the home battery for peak power times in the evening and yet knowing that you have additional capacity with your EV v2x if needed eg a blackout or extended overcast/ no sunshine; and then even discharging what’s left stored in your home battery into the car (all free) then charging the Home battery up again with next days sunshine. Is all that plausible or am I missing something?🤔 14:16
@@petedawborn I think you hit the nail on the head. The V2X should allow for the car to supplement the home battery. I could even imagine that your car could be used as a power transfer system where you may charge in a location with power to your home that could be in an extended blackout due to a natural disaster.
I just do not want anything to do with tesla. I don't want to put a dollar....into musks pocket. I drive a BYD Atto 3 and love it.
That's great 👍
Glad your happy to put money into the CCP pockets
Better to support a communist regime.
That's a childish immature view Musk has done nothing except improve the world for everyone including you and he will continue to do so.
@@dallasdrew2390 Neither absolute position is correct here. Musk has developed some amazing products, that arguably are an improvement, especially StarLink. That he is has some quite unpleasant views and that X is a cesspool is also true.
Sorry, would not buy Tesla under any circumstances.
Good thing we also sell BYD HVM & HVS modules.
@ aye, thanks for that, I will indeed investigate the BYD, I do enjoy the content by the way, many thanks for what you do.
@@andrewtagg3690 Always appreciate the feedback.
But do you still buy from Amazon, with Bezos treatment of staff, or petrol and energy from fossil companies, or vehicles from likes of Toyota that have CEOs that hide and actively promote and profit from climate denial?
Musk what a great guy
Just a little controversial