Can enough cable be left so, the owner can lift and add batteries when budget allows? Also the high power ev part is that just put in when budget allows? Can this be controlled restricted by the app? And used possibly by card payments by public on my driveway?
how does a 25kw inverter supply a house capable of drawing ~70kw without overloading - surely you need to separate critical loads from the non essential heavy loads (such as heating and car charging)
Thanks for being honest and mentioning the "missed wall brackets" and redoing the stack. This is what can happen when installing a new system for the 1st time, even with clear instructions! Cheers.
I've had a great experience with Sigenergy so far. We've installed 10+ residential systems with them and the post install support has been better than any other inverter supplier I've worked with. The product works and the feature list goes on an on, heating and cooling plates, GPT4 diagnostics, Ai analysis of usage and a really solid app. We even had a rep fly from North Africa to come and sort out one of the installs we couldn't diagnose. I didn't even mention DC car charging modules coming out later this year, 50kW car charging anyone?. Not a Sigenergy sales rep, just a Midlands based solar sales rep.
Re: DC car charging modules - I'm actually more excited about the fact that they have a roadmap to V2X that is to be enabled via software update that uses the current hardware SigenStor hardware. Granted it's 25 kW, not 50 kW, but given the size of EV batteries, that should open up a lot of battery storage for use when needed that we already have. Lots of people don't really need much battery backup when they aren't home, so may as well use the batteries they normally use rather than stationary storage that they might not need to use as much. Of course people using it for load shifting and energy independence will still need stationary storage, but for people aiming for stability of supply during outages, they can at least downsize the stationary storage installation.
Just wait till Xi pulls the plug or starts to demand more spyware. Sigenergy is from Shanghai. I’m not joking here. There is plenty of evidence. We need more Western battery and inverter producers
@@tomblewomble3369 cue tense music when their 3rd load of builders have walked off the site and they’re running out of money - only to be saved by a kind relative who loaned them a couple of million 😂
I did some UPS projects years ago, the only way you got “0 ms”changeover was to run them in on-line mode, this meant all power was passing through the rectifier and inverter. It comes with an efficiency cost that would not make sense for a domestic install. If this system does switch out with a gateway I don’t see how it’s possible to do it in “0ms” .
I was a little skeptical too, so I looked it up. They run the inverters in parallel with utility and when the gateway detects a utility fault it opens the utility contactor. So depending on how fast they can detect the grid is going down and how fast that contactor can open you can theoretically not have any large voltage swing. How well it works in practice? No idea, but protection relays are fast enough to detect events like that.
Simple answer - it doesn't! I questioned this in a comment on the previous vid that Jordan did on this install, querying the 0mS claim and backing up my assertion with some knowledge of G99 (the required standard for these devices in the UK). Never heard back from him (obviously he's under no obligation to respond) so when he started the 0mS hype again in this vid, I checked the inverter's G99 Type Test Verification Report on the ENA's Connect Direct website. Surprise, surprise; loss-of-mains protection device operating times ranged from 138.5mS to 279.5mS. The device complies with G99 and has the necessary certificates to prove it but it needs a finite time to detect a grid disconnection and (assuming the install is correctly specified and built) switch into island mode. Just like other gateway-type devices with BESS and islanding capabilities, the change from being grid interconnected to island mode takes a finite amount of time. Some domestic and commercial appliances and devices might respond unfavourably to the transition, most probably won't 'notice' it. The manufacturer still claims "0mS load side interruption" on their website so I've emailed them asking how is this achieved. They caveat the claim on the website by stating it can only be achieved using their inverter, their controller etc in combination (no surprise there). It will be interesting to see what they come back with - I'm happy to be proved wrong or convinced of their claims. But you are absolutely correct, Ed, 0mS changeover can only truly be achieved by using a UPS in on-line mode, interposed between the supply and the loads. The system in the video is not a UPS.
@@protectiongeek You don't need a pass through UPS to achieve close to 0ms delay when paralleled. Utility relays can detect rate of change in a 1/4 cycle and an off the shelf contactor opens from 7 to 25ms, or just over a cycle. The tech and is there, now whether this system is that fast? Super easy to find out. Jordan needs to make a video with a power quality meter installed, turn off the utility breaker and post the results from the PQ. Now if a utility will allow a back up system to not have a set delay on power loss, that I don't know. I only work with electric utility level power generation and I am sure the regs vary by region.
@@inothome detecting rate of change (of frequency usually) in a quarter cycle would be asking for lots of spurious operations of the protection. Standard for this type of system in the U.K. (ENA Engineering Recommendation G99) requires loss of mains trip in less than 500mS although some systems may be allowed to extend to 1 second. The device has a G99 type test result document and its LoM protection response is compliant with fairly typical trip times for a Rate of Change of Frequency (RoCoF) device, although the manufacturer does not state exactly what their LoM protection is based on (it’s usually RoCoF). The test you describe will demonstrate the installation response but for what criteria? At what loading? Power factor? Compliance for a type test certificate is a bit more complicated, requiring testing to BS EN 62116. The inverter passed its tests; that’s not up for debate. But how do you reconcile LoM protection operating times of almost 300mS with a claim to have “0mS load side interruption”? That’s what I’m trying to ascertain.
@@inothome Surely if the electricity supply is going through their gateway, before going back to the distribution board, they could have some fairly small circuitry equivalent to an online UPS without a lot of battery backup in the gateway just to provide cover while it switched over to the inverter. Obviously not having to actually power the house for even a second, just long enough until the inverter kicked on, means you could go so far as to run it off capacitors rather than batteries.
I was designing my own fully bespoke "whole-house" UPS system and now I'm starting to question whether or not I need to bother. As much as I love the bespokeness and the opportunity to build such a system and learn from it, off the shelf hardware being available is tempting.
The hardware has been available for awhile. My 1998 motorhome had a close to UPS system. Today it is getting better and cheaper all the time. I finally got rid of my lead acid batteries and went LiPo4. They are getting cheap with the slow down in EV sales.
So there I was watching this video on UA-cam on my TV. Came to the switch over test where you go 1,2,3... and UA-cam decided that was the exact point to switch to an advert, going via several seconds of black 😂
Great video @artisanelectrics I'm the Managing Director for Sigenergy in Australia, although i'm originally from Yorkshire so it's great to see our product gaining popularity in the motherland!
I’m a fellow Brit who is living in India (due to my job) and I can tell you that the market potential for a product like this is absolutely huge over here. See bullet points below that I hope are helpful…. 1) There might be a few barriers to entry in India (due to bureaucracy) but that’s now easing a lot with the country digitising corporate admin. 2) There are currently no competitors at the moment, because there are no lithium based battery products available over 1 KWh. Most people have lead acid based EPS systems with a dirty sine wave output from a low quality (Indian brand) inverter. 3) No body is importing lithium based products at any scale. Whilst importing is remotely feasible, it would be tricky and no service support. 4) Every major city in India has several affluent areas where homes are afflicted by daily power outages. And even mid sized homes mostly have a 3 phase supply. These home owners have sufficient capital to purchase such a system. Punitive rates of customs duty would not deter them because the drop in / out of their AC systems disrupts their sleep, sometimes several times per night in summer or monsoon seasons. Please have a think on this. I’m not an agent and I have nothing to sell. My suggestion is for free purely because I’d like to see a system like this available in India. Find me on LinkedIn. Robert Allan / employer Nippon Koei
Can you hurry up and get CEC approval for your 3-phase inverters please 😉 Also would have been good if the 15kW inverter had either 4 MPPT's or allowed parallel strings due to the 600PV restriction in AS4777.1
Better than a Tesla Powerwall? The 48kWh Three Phase UPS Battery System from Sigenergy SigenStor is truly impressive! I can clearly see your passion for the industry, and your way of explaining the installation process is quite remarkable. Keep up the great work!
I'm only 4 minutes in and I already feel like I'm there with you, helping do the install and unbox. I'm not exactly sure how you managed to capture tangible excitement on the film, but this video has a kind of electric energy coming off it that's amazing. About the only way to make this more exciting would be to have the homeowner come on and sing in Peter Griffin's voice "My gawd this house is freakin' sweet!"
Jordan you need to work on your lifting technique, you were using your back to lift the weight and if you keep doing that you’re going to bugger a disc. Having done a back injury back in the 90s I’ve been in pain ever since. You only get one back so please look after it. Take care mate.
I feel your pain. My injury was late 80s and went L2 through to S1 so I did a proper job of it. C6/7 also comes out to play sometimes too. If only we knew then what we know now eh.
We will only ever hear from people that have injured themselves this way... Those that haven't will likely remain silent out of respect for those that have.
You all do realise that if you stretch and be a man you'll be fine 🤦♂️ Electricians lifting weight 😂 Lads ya need to stop at this stage. Yis are becoming way to soft!!
Greatest product I've ever worked with! It would have been good to mention that the batteries are unique in that they have 7 x electronic sensors, special cooling pads within the batteries and IF there was a fire , the batteries have a decompression valve, that decompresses and automatically brings on a lithium fire extinguisher within the battery! You can also run the battery down to 100% D O D. Most other lithium batteries on the market you can only fun down to +/_ 20%
If you are doing that regularly, find a company that hires out stair climbers. I used to use them for moving heavy photocopiers around. They can handle up to 500 kg.
Thankyou for your video and presenting it in plain English. I tried looking around for a site to look for the specific details on the Sigenergy products and frankly all i got was geek speak. Even Sigenergy themselves are offline this morning. Thank for a great video and happy hunting many more HUGE installations.
Recomend using KLAUKE 'EK 30 ID ML Battery-powered hydraulic crimping tool 6 - 120 mm2' instead of the hand crimp tool, for coper tube crimps. Have been using for a few years, KLAUKE crimping tool is a battery hydraulic with universal size crimping die, without having to keep swaping dies for different cable sizes.
If you get yourself a Costco trolley you can fold it in 3 ways and it will be much easier to walk it down the stairs with someone at the bottom. I used it for heat pumps and it works great. Good video, thanks for sharing
Energy storage in your battery is listed as kilowatt hours. Power output of an inverter is listed as kilowatts. Just keep it straight so that others can learn that's all. Thanks
Fantastic install, only question I have is if you have supplied the AIO with a 10mm 5 core ho7 from the gateway how have you calculated the design current if the ups is backed up for the whole house surely 10mm is undersized?
Since the price has to be a mystery. You can get an all-in-one 10kw inverter and 48kw of batteries for 13k usd , how much is this unit? When I was searching for a supplier any website that had no price or call for a quote was a total rip off, in one case 3 times the price, if they hide the price, in most cases it is because they are too embarrassed to reveal it. Is this the case with Sigenergy?
‘Embarrassment’ is literally your fantasy. When prices are not quoted for a highly specialized engineering solution, the reason is always legitimate and due to the unknown costs of implementation to a customer’s precise needs. This isn’t home depot.
LiFePO4 still catches on fire. The GenX big battery supplied by Tesla near Rockhampton Australia did so last year. Why anyone would install one of these inside a building and not in an engineered structure to manage fire is mind boggling.
My thoughts exactly. I'm planning a home that is on the small side but I still don't want the risk of living inside a building with a huge battery so my first purchase was a "telecommunications shelter" where my batteries and inverters will live and a bit of extra storage too. I like how this battery system is pretty modular and clean but it should be in a structure that is kind of designed to fail without catching other structures on fire and probably with a dedicated fire suppression system so there is a way to attempt to extinguish a battery fire rather than just waiting for it to burn down completely. That's probably not a job for water so either an ABC style chemical extinguisher system or a CO2 generator of some sort. I'll have to research that more.
Impressive system. Like the easy way of stacking the batteries, but, does it introduce a potential weakness over time? Are the physical connections between units robust enough to not cause problems after many heat cycles and stresses? That will also be a warm humid environment which, over time, won't be kind to much of the electronics as well as those connections. Just a thought.
0:45 yes you can… but as I mentioned multiple times… you just don‘t see the market… especially the threephase market and I would really recommend that you take a look at the german market… because germany is way beyond…
@@celts88-78 51 panels, you must have a huge roof. For a system that size I’d recommend a bigger battery. I was surprised how much power we use from it. 2x Fridge, 2x freezer etc use more than you think.
@@andrewrharker The maximum I could fit on my roof (and this is with no panels facing South) is 68 panels. I live in Perth Australia so houses over here are far larger than in the UK, and that's me with a one storey house. The issue we have is only allowed up to 600V per string, but there's a revision coming to our Standard AS4777.1 that everyone hopes will go up to 1000V, and at the same time will allow the use of V2H / V2G for batteries. Also the maximum inverter allowed in WA is only 15kW for 3-phase (only 5kW for 1-phase) and these generally only come with 3 MPPT's so this limits the amounts of panels that can be installed. I realise 8kWh is small for a battery, but at present putting the money into the maximum panels and can install additional battery later (we get government subsidies for panels installed). Benefit with Sigenergy is their batteries run in parallel so if older battery efficiency has dropped, e.g. 90% the new battery can still run at 100% whereas if in series battery (the vast majority of batteries) then even the new battery will be dragged down to 90%. Also with Sigenergy having V2H / V2G it would mean can use power from EV to power house during peak period and recharge EV during off-peak period which will save on that.
Congressman from Kentucky, Thomas Massie is running his whole off grid house, AC, 3 freezers and two refrigerators all lighting, everything off of a battery he got out of a wrecked model 3 for 15K.
2:56 I would like to see the spec sheet that claims a Switch time of ZERO Milliseconds. There is no switch fast enough to do it at that speed. I know this is probably just some embellishment for the video but a bit misleading even if it is "near instant" switch.
Fantastic video and you just proved that the electrification is for the rich elite, anyone working and living on a living wage will never be able to afford this nor have the room.. But if they have to the owner will increase the rent...
In an effort to be encouraging, I would point out that in terms of grid stabilization and load shifting that benefits everyone, you really want a bunch of the people paying for it to be the rich people. Batteries and solar PV that I don't need to pay for, in someone else's home, decreasing the load on the grid at peak times, benefits me because the grid distribution utility doesn't need to spend as much money on increasing capacity or paying to build and maintain storage at rate-payers expense. They may pay a smaller fee to use some of that capacity in emergencies, but that's a heck of a lot cheaper than the capital expenditure needed to build it themselves. As far as electrification being for the rich elite - How do you define electrification? Like, if you mean using electricity to power things instead of combustion, then that's not the case. Electric cooking, clothes drying, yardwork (prices vary significantly among options - li-ion battery ones can be expensive, but inexpensive corded electric lawnmowers like the one I grew up using have been around for decades.) - All of those exist at a variety of price points that are roughly comparable, and come with health benefits too. Electric water heating and space conditioning (including heating) price competitiveness varies significantly depending on local conditions, but in many cases are pretty comparable if you're already getting air conditioning (though obviously there are climates where that's not the case). If you aren't in an area with natural gas supply, like you use heating oil or coal, that may swing it towards electric more often depending on the utility. In my household's case we costed it at about par over the life of the appliances (after the government grant), if gas and electricity prices maintained their relative levels. Obviously that could change, but it's by no means certain which direction they'll go. If you mean backup power, then yes, this is a lot more expensive than a whole home methane or propane generator system, though it also provides a lot of functionality that they don't, so you'd expect that. But also, most people don't buy whole home electrical backup, period, even rich people. That said, the existence of expensive systems doesn't disprove the existence of cheaper ones. There are significantly less expensive DIY battery systems out there. Though really, grid unreliability in many places isn't the sort of thing that the general public should normally be hedging themselves for individually in a well functioning system. If everyone around has backup generators, that may mean that something else has gone wrong in the regulatory and utility environment. Places with particularly frequent weather disasters or that sort of thing are exceptions, because there's only so much that a utility can do and only so far that society will go to devote resources to preparing for, as well as partly because many people tend not to want to live in places with frequent bad weather. And if you mean electrification of generation, well, depending on where in the world you are, if you're already buying electricity, there are places where you can put money into buying from carbon neutral generation that can save you money. Not everywhere, but there are definitely community funded and subscribed solar and/or wind projects around that give their subscribers rates that are equal or better than those of the incumbent fossil powered utilities in their area. Take heart. Progress is being made, though it is unevenly distributed. Lots of people are working on making life better in equitable ways. Hopefully their example brings more people on board to support those efforts.
I am impressed by this system and your nice install, i did't see your checking the 3 fase order. If you swop the 2 of the fase the pool pump in reverse 🤔 and who knows what the CT clamps are measuring. greetings from The Netherlands
@5:22 "step1:Unflod" ... good to see they're spell checking all their materials. This is the second or third time I've seen these exact looking modules, but under different brand names.
1) What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different battery systems that you presented (Sigenergy, Tesla, MyEnergi, others ?) ? If there are significant differences - of course. And in which cases should one be chosen over the other ? 2) How to determine battery capacity ? On what basis ? Is there a program to calculate it ?
We Need these In Toronto Canada And the US :) ... come in handle with the Power outta All Utility Compony's should be Investing and you're Fiber Internet Cable subcribers
To answer your question of 3ph configuration - wye and delta. Delta is common on industrial motor loads. Most common is wye. I am from Canada and Americas may have differences from EU/UK but theories are similar.
3:03 to be 0, the inverter is always on and in phase with the mains, there's downsides to everything and this would also have one, most likely more power usage when it's not even being "used"
So the whole installation was on a 100 amp 3 phase supply, it is now on a C?50 triple pole MCB 10KA feeding an MCCB DB with, in your own words much larger than normal MCCB’s, from past experience what you are saying is that the sub mains or plant requires protective devices higher than a standard DB at 63 amps. So how does the new supply meet those requirements ?
I have a 3 phase house with a Powerwall. I need to find a solution because I have 3 phase solar that won't charge the Powerwall if the grid is out, which is sorta dumb. I wanted to be off grid as much as possible, but I find that is not possible with my current setup.
Looks a nice unit but I cant find mention of them meeting the new cyber security regulations. Warrenty looks just under what I have from Victron. The only advantage I can seen is that its all one module when I would need three inverters to match that. 0ms transfer is standard for my kit, i didnt know a lot of these gateways had such a transfer time. Thanks for the interesting video 👍
I could be wrong but it looks like once its all together if you need to replace a battery in the middle you would have to take the entire thing apart to get to it, unstack the ones on top, unscrew from the wall and remove those clamps on the side. This looks very inconvenient compare to the server rack mounted batteries I've seen out there that can be slid out to preform maintenance and replacement
@@artisanelectrics 20 years of experience. Selectivity wouldn’t be achieved between mcbs . A busbar chamber and switch fuses is wasted space and labour . Plenty of room in a 3 phase mcb board with spreader box . Terminals rated up to 50sq mm for size .
Just a tad skeptical on the 0msec claim. 5-8 msec would be normal. There has to be a time interval to sense a difference between the grid and what we expect the grid to be doing. Would love to see an actual waveform on the home side during a switchover.
At 16.26 you strip the sheath of a 10 core cable with a Stanley knife potentially cutting in to the core insulation. Not unusual to so experienced pros do that because you guys know just how deep to cut, but is it not against recommended practice to do that risky cut than use measured strippers?
Hi Jordan, Im interested in installing a Sigenergy battery system at my property but am curious with Sigenergy being such a new edition to the UK market, what the support was like for them? And if there have been any teething issues with the systems that have been installed as they are so new and not widespread yet?
Hi Ben! It’s a fantastic system and no issues at all so far with any of the systems we have installed. Support is excellent - I have lots of technical questions which they answer promptly and they are constantly improving their documentation etc.
@@windsorchap Speaking from experience in the IT sector, your equipment should be tested and working before you turn up. It's not good when you turn up on site, install the equipment, perform an update, and the unit gets bricked.
@@QuentinStephens yes, you already said that. Think that's old school now. The point is that isn't practical in this scenario and now we have to assume they test this for us centrally and we don't need to..
Great video. I've ordered a Sigenergy system for my single phase home, 16x (2x8) 455w solar, 6kW inverter and a 5kWh+8kWh batteries. Waiting on G99 DNO approval. Would love to see more in depth app workings with the AI and TOU tariffs etc.
I wonder how much commissioning issues is due to slow wireless far away from the router with obstructions and neighboring Channel conflicts and overlaps. Anything that's gotta be wired in really should just be ethernet anyway. I know that's an extra step for the installation process but I'm sure it simplifies a ton of stuff in the long run. no need to reconfigure wireless networks by resetting the entire thing etc. just to change the wireless network. The number of times I've come back to straighten things out after the wireless network was reset and then all the neighboring devices need to be reconnected to the now different name.
I am nearly persuaded to go with this rather than 2 powerwalls on three phase . Would like to see a vid just on the app and info that can be accessed and extracted for monitoring purposes .
I think in the intro you basically said that that the system was aimed at large houses or small businesses. Here in the Netherlands, 3 phase is not limited to large houses and my mid terrace house (3 floors and a supply of 3x25A) has three phase. I'm curious if this great looking system is really overkill for such a house. We only have a daily usage in the rough region of 10kWh and we have 16 panels that delivers a max of around 3kW. I like the UPS feature but that's not entirely essential as we have not had a power outage in 20 years. Great video.
As a result of your promo video here I jumped from a pwerwall2 to this system as a choice . However since the 3 has launched and this obviously made me think again , but if I understand correctly the 3 is still using an older gateway that won’t allow whole house back up as this Sigen does . Is that correct ?
Thanks for reply , I think if our installer can satisfy himself Sigen support is up to scratch it’s a buy,, he has good experience with Tesla support , so am hoping Sigen are ok .
Check out the Sigenergy website to find out more about this incredible battery system - bit.ly/Sigenergy
Can enough cable be left so, the owner can lift and add batteries when budget allows?
Also the high power ev part is that just put in when budget allows? Can this be controlled restricted by the app? And used possibly by card payments by public on my driveway?
how does a 25kw inverter supply a house capable of drawing ~70kw without overloading - surely you need to separate critical loads from the non essential heavy loads (such as heating and car charging)
@@eliotmansfieldbingo. 25kw is fuck all for this scale, you need three in parallel if they have that functionality
This video just gave me a .... (Suprised to see you still using DC Isolators?)
When will you sell in the USA?
Thanks for being honest and mentioning the "missed wall brackets" and redoing the stack. This is what can happen when installing a new system for the 1st time, even with clear instructions! Cheers.
I've had a great experience with Sigenergy so far. We've installed 10+ residential systems with them and the post install support has been better than any other inverter supplier I've worked with. The product works and the feature list goes on an on, heating and cooling plates, GPT4 diagnostics, Ai analysis of usage and a really solid app. We even had a rep fly from North Africa to come and sort out one of the installs we couldn't diagnose.
I didn't even mention DC car charging modules coming out later this year, 50kW car charging anyone?. Not a Sigenergy sales rep, just a Midlands based solar sales rep.
It really does seem that Sigenergy will eventually become a big name in the battery market here in the UK.
The nearest rep is North Africa?
Re: DC car charging modules - I'm actually more excited about the fact that they have a roadmap to V2X that is to be enabled via software update that uses the current hardware SigenStor hardware. Granted it's 25 kW, not 50 kW, but given the size of EV batteries, that should open up a lot of battery storage for use when needed that we already have. Lots of people don't really need much battery backup when they aren't home, so may as well use the batteries they normally use rather than stationary storage that they might not need to use as much. Of course people using it for load shifting and energy independence will still need stationary storage, but for people aiming for stability of supply during outages, they can at least downsize the stationary storage installation.
Just wait till Xi pulls the plug or starts to demand more spyware. Sigenergy is from Shanghai. I’m not joking here. There is plenty of evidence. We need more Western battery and inverter producers
Always good to see people living in a house the size of a secondary school doing their bit for the environment 😂
Waiting for the scarf from Grand Designs to pop his head up and tell me how brave they are.
@@tomblewomble3369 cue tense music when their 3rd load of builders have walked off the site and they’re running out of money - only to be saved by a kind relative who loaned them a couple of million 😂
💀
Get them Chinese made solar panels installed
@@1jakedizzlechina is the go to place for batteries and advancements in solar. Not sure you know what you’re talking about.
I did some UPS projects years ago, the only way you got “0 ms”changeover was to run them in on-line mode, this meant all power was passing through the rectifier and inverter. It comes with an efficiency cost that would not make sense for a domestic install. If this system does switch out with a gateway I don’t see how it’s possible to do it in “0ms” .
I was a little skeptical too, so I looked it up. They run the inverters in parallel with utility and when the gateway detects a utility fault it opens the utility contactor. So depending on how fast they can detect the grid is going down and how fast that contactor can open you can theoretically not have any large voltage swing. How well it works in practice? No idea, but protection relays are fast enough to detect events like that.
Simple answer - it doesn't! I questioned this in a comment on the previous vid that Jordan did on this install, querying the 0mS claim and backing up my assertion with some knowledge of G99 (the required standard for these devices in the UK). Never heard back from him (obviously he's under no obligation to respond) so when he started the 0mS hype again in this vid, I checked the inverter's G99 Type Test Verification Report on the ENA's Connect Direct website. Surprise, surprise; loss-of-mains protection device operating times ranged from 138.5mS to 279.5mS. The device complies with G99 and has the necessary certificates to prove it but it needs a finite time to detect a grid disconnection and (assuming the install is correctly specified and built) switch into island mode. Just like other gateway-type devices with BESS and islanding capabilities, the change from being grid interconnected to island mode takes a finite amount of time. Some domestic and commercial appliances and devices might respond unfavourably to the transition, most probably won't 'notice' it.
The manufacturer still claims "0mS load side interruption" on their website so I've emailed them asking how is this achieved. They caveat the claim on the website by stating it can only be achieved using their inverter, their controller etc in combination (no surprise there). It will be interesting to see what they come back with - I'm happy to be proved wrong or convinced of their claims.
But you are absolutely correct, Ed, 0mS changeover can only truly be achieved by using a UPS in on-line mode, interposed between the supply and the loads. The system in the video is not a UPS.
@@protectiongeek You don't need a pass through UPS to achieve close to 0ms delay when paralleled. Utility relays can detect rate of change in a 1/4 cycle and an off the shelf contactor opens from 7 to 25ms, or just over a cycle. The tech and is there, now whether this system is that fast? Super easy to find out. Jordan needs to make a video with a power quality meter installed, turn off the utility breaker and post the results from the PQ.
Now if a utility will allow a back up system to not have a set delay on power loss, that I don't know. I only work with electric utility level power generation and I am sure the regs vary by region.
@@inothome detecting rate of change (of frequency usually) in a quarter cycle would be asking for lots of spurious operations of the protection. Standard for this type of system in the U.K. (ENA Engineering Recommendation G99) requires loss of mains trip in less than 500mS although some systems may be allowed to extend to 1 second. The device has a G99 type test result document and its LoM protection response is compliant with fairly typical trip times for a Rate of Change of Frequency (RoCoF) device, although the manufacturer does not state exactly what their LoM protection is based on (it’s usually RoCoF).
The test you describe will demonstrate the installation response but for what criteria? At what loading? Power factor? Compliance for a type test certificate is a bit more complicated, requiring testing to BS EN 62116. The inverter passed its tests; that’s not up for debate. But how do you reconcile LoM protection operating times of almost 300mS with a claim to have “0mS load side interruption”? That’s what I’m trying to ascertain.
@@inothome Surely if the electricity supply is going through their gateway, before going back to the distribution board, they could have some fairly small circuitry equivalent to an online UPS without a lot of battery backup in the gateway just to provide cover while it switched over to the inverter.
Obviously not having to actually power the house for even a second, just long enough until the inverter kicked on, means you could go so far as to run it off capacitors rather than batteries.
When the fuse board was being switched, I was reminded of that scene from Jurassic park 😂
I was designing my own fully bespoke "whole-house" UPS system and now I'm starting to question whether or not I need to bother. As much as I love the bespokeness and the opportunity to build such a system and learn from it, off the shelf hardware being available is tempting.
I must admit - have 3 phase at our house in Thailand, and if they had a distributor there...
The hardware has been available for awhile. My 1998 motorhome had a close to UPS system. Today it is getting better and cheaper all the time. I finally got rid of my lead acid batteries and went LiPo4. They are getting cheap with the slow down in EV sales.
So there I was watching this video on UA-cam on my TV. Came to the switch over test where you go 1,2,3... and UA-cam decided that was the exact point to switch to an advert, going via several seconds of black 😂
Exactly as me lol
Great video @artisanelectrics I'm the Managing Director for Sigenergy in Australia, although i'm originally from Yorkshire so it's great to see our product gaining popularity in the motherland!
I’m a fellow Brit who is living in India (due to my job) and I can tell you that the market potential for a product like this is absolutely huge over here. See bullet points below that I hope are helpful….
1) There might be a few barriers to entry in India (due to bureaucracy) but that’s now easing a lot with the country digitising corporate admin.
2) There are currently no competitors at the moment, because there are no lithium based battery products available over 1 KWh. Most people have lead acid based EPS systems with a dirty sine wave output from a low quality (Indian brand) inverter.
3) No body is importing lithium based products at any scale. Whilst importing is remotely feasible, it would be tricky and no service support.
4) Every major city in India has several affluent areas where homes are afflicted by daily power outages. And even mid sized homes mostly have a 3 phase supply. These home owners have sufficient capital to purchase such a system. Punitive rates of customs duty would not deter them because the drop in / out of their AC systems disrupts their sleep, sometimes several times per night in summer or monsoon seasons.
Please have a think on this. I’m not an agent and I have nothing to sell. My suggestion is for free purely because I’d like to see a system like this available in India. Find me on LinkedIn. Robert Allan / employer Nippon Koei
Can you hurry up and get CEC approval for your 3-phase inverters please 😉
Also would have been good if the 15kW inverter had either 4 MPPT's or allowed parallel strings due to the 600PV restriction in AS4777.1
Better than a Tesla Powerwall? The 48kWh Three Phase UPS Battery System from Sigenergy SigenStor is truly impressive! I can clearly see your passion for the industry, and your way of explaining the installation process is quite remarkable. Keep up the great work!
Well it was sponsored by Sigenergy, so you know gotta say nice things I guess? :)
I'm only 4 minutes in and I already feel like I'm there with you, helping do the install and unbox. I'm not exactly sure how you managed to capture tangible excitement on the film, but this video has a kind of electric energy coming off it that's amazing. About the only way to make this more exciting would be to have the homeowner come on and sing in Peter Griffin's voice "My gawd this house is freakin' sweet!"
Amazing. All new builds should have a "lite" version of this and solar as standard.
Stackable Batteries! I Love it!
Jordan you need to work on your lifting technique, you were using your back to lift the weight and if you keep doing that you’re going to bugger a disc. Having done a back injury back in the 90s I’ve been in pain ever since. You only get one back so please look after it. Take care mate.
I feel your pain. My injury was late 80s and went L2 through to S1 so I did a proper job of it. C6/7 also comes out to play sometimes too. If only we knew then what we know now eh.
Yeah grim stuff, mine popped and kinked my spinal cord, had to have surgery, fun times.
We will only ever hear from people that have injured themselves this way...
Those that haven't will likely remain silent out of respect for those that have.
You all do realise that if you stretch and be a man you'll be fine 🤦♂️ Electricians lifting weight 😂
Lads ya need to stop at this stage. Yis are becoming way to soft!!
Greatest product I've ever worked with! It would have been good to mention that the batteries are unique in that they have 7 x electronic sensors, special cooling pads within the batteries and IF there was a fire , the batteries have a decompression valve, that decompresses and automatically brings on a lithium fire extinguisher within the battery! You can also run the battery down to 100% D O D. Most other lithium batteries on the market you can only fun down to +/_ 20%
this will go into my house next year. thanks for showing it.
I was really impressed with Sigenergy. Got a few installs booked using the system now. Neat solution
If you are doing that regularly, find a company that hires out stair climbers. I used to use them for moving heavy photocopiers around. They can handle up to 500 kg.
Older people always told me growing up you get for what you pay for.
Thankyou for your video and presenting it in plain English. I tried looking around for a site to look for the specific details on the Sigenergy products and frankly all i got was geek speak. Even Sigenergy themselves are offline this morning.
Thank for a great video and happy hunting many more HUGE installations.
Good to see technology marching forward. Great video.
Recomend using KLAUKE 'EK 30 ID ML Battery-powered hydraulic crimping tool 6 - 120 mm2' instead of the hand crimp tool, for coper tube crimps. Have been using for a few years, KLAUKE crimping tool is a battery hydraulic with universal size crimping die, without having to keep swaping dies for different cable sizes.
Thanks for the recommendation
If you get yourself a Costco trolley you can fold it in 3 ways and it will be much easier to walk it down the stairs with someone at the bottom. I used it for heat pumps and it works great. Good video, thanks for sharing
Thanks for the video, I wish you were in States, definitely a competent installer company.
Just released in Australia. Once OpenSolar gets sorted, I'll be desiging this rig for sure. Great educational video btw
My GoodWe runs on 3 phase. And is a UPS. I have 13kw cells, and 16kw batt.
Like this system the batteries just stack together.
Energy storage in your battery is listed as kilowatt hours. Power output of an inverter is listed as kilowatts. Just keep it straight so that others can learn that's all. Thanks
Always good to watch you guys. I was wondering if you install in Nigeria and or if you have any representative out there. Thank you
Thanks for the impressive installation and demonstration of this product. Awesome.
This battery is going to unflod a world of opportunity.
Awesome couple of videos but I shudder to think how much that commission was from start to finish. Gotta be well into six figures!!
Artisan Electrics, This made me so happy! I liked and subscribed!
Awesome! Thank you!
Fantastic install, only question I have is if you have supplied the AIO with a 10mm 5 core ho7 from the gateway how have you calculated the design current if the ups is backed up for the whole house surely 10mm is undersized?
Since the price has to be a mystery. You can get an all-in-one 10kw inverter and 48kw of batteries for 13k usd , how much is this unit?
When I was searching for a supplier any website that had no price or call for a quote was a total rip off, in one case 3 times the price, if they hide the price, in most cases it is because they are too embarrassed to reveal it. Is this the case with Sigenergy?
‘Embarrassment’ is literally your fantasy. When prices are not quoted for a highly specialized engineering solution, the reason is always legitimate and due to the unknown costs of implementation to a customer’s precise needs. This isn’t home depot.
@@artysanmobile try using lead carbon,no bms,no heater,no equalizer needed,-30c charge,non spillable,97% recyclable, 48kw costs 9600 usd
It would be very interesting to see the pay-back time of a system like this, with solar and intelligent grid selling/buying.
I would strongly recommend using long ark flash gloves when your turning 3 phase on for first time after reconfiguration
LiFePO4 still catches on fire. The GenX big battery supplied by Tesla near Rockhampton Australia did so last year. Why anyone would install one of these inside a building and not in an engineered structure to manage fire is mind boggling.
My thoughts exactly. I'm planning a home that is on the small side but I still don't want the risk of living inside a building with a huge battery so my first purchase was a "telecommunications shelter" where my batteries and inverters will live and a bit of extra storage too.
I like how this battery system is pretty modular and clean but it should be in a structure that is kind of designed to fail without catching other structures on fire and probably with a dedicated fire suppression system so there is a way to attempt to extinguish a battery fire rather than just waiting for it to burn down completely. That's probably not a job for water so either an ABC style chemical extinguisher system or a CO2 generator of some sort. I'll have to research that more.
Impressive system. Like the easy way of stacking the batteries, but, does it introduce a potential weakness over time? Are the physical connections between units robust enough to not cause problems after many heat cycles and stresses? That will also be a warm humid environment which, over time, won't be kind to much of the electronics as well as those connections. Just a thought.
Did you notice the top inverter marking holes on the template were back to front?
We’ve fitted 5 of these systems now and swear by them 👌
Great system it is!
An awesome setup and an awesome video. A credit to the team. Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it
And a awesome comment
9:21 unflodding is a thing you know 😂
😂😂😂
Great video guys. Thanks!
0:45 yes you can… but as I mentioned multiple times… you just don‘t see the market… especially the threephase market and I would really recommend that you take a look at the german market… because germany is way beyond…
3 phase is great for solar. I am one of the lucky ones. 20 panels and a 10KW inverter.
@@andrewrharker I'm going 51 x 440W panels with their 15kW 3-phase hybrid and 8kWh battery.
@@celts88-78 51 panels, you must have a huge roof. For a system that size I’d recommend a bigger battery. I was surprised how much power we use from it. 2x Fridge, 2x freezer etc use more than you think.
@@andrewrharker The maximum I could fit on my roof (and this is with no panels facing South) is 68 panels. I live in Perth Australia so houses over here are far larger than in the UK, and that's me with a one storey house.
The issue we have is only allowed up to 600V per string, but there's a revision coming to our Standard AS4777.1 that everyone hopes will go up to 1000V, and at the same time will allow the use of V2H / V2G for batteries. Also the maximum inverter allowed in WA is only 15kW for 3-phase (only 5kW for 1-phase) and these generally only come with 3 MPPT's so this limits the amounts of panels that can be installed.
I realise 8kWh is small for a battery, but at present putting the money into the maximum panels and can install additional battery later (we get government subsidies for panels installed). Benefit with Sigenergy is their batteries run in parallel so if older battery efficiency has dropped, e.g. 90% the new battery can still run at 100% whereas if in series battery (the vast majority of batteries) then even the new battery will be dragged down to 90%. Also with Sigenergy having V2H / V2G it would mean can use power from EV to power house during peak period and recharge EV during off-peak period which will save on that.
Better than PW2 & PW3! Thanks for the video mate. I share this amongst our Installer's in Australia!
Congressman from Kentucky, Thomas Massie is running his whole off grid house, AC, 3 freezers and two refrigerators all lighting, everything off of a battery he got out of a wrecked model 3 for 15K.
Battery prices have plummeted in the last 65 days and will continue to fall for about 6 months, battery systems should fall in price.
2:56 I would like to see the spec sheet that claims a Switch time of ZERO Milliseconds. There is no switch fast enough to do it at that speed. I know this is probably just some embellishment for the video but a bit misleading even if it is "near instant" switch.
Fantastic video and you just proved that the electrification is for the rich elite, anyone working and living on a living wage will never be able to afford this nor have the room.. But if they have to the owner will increase the rent...
In an effort to be encouraging, I would point out that in terms of grid stabilization and load shifting that benefits everyone, you really want a bunch of the people paying for it to be the rich people. Batteries and solar PV that I don't need to pay for, in someone else's home, decreasing the load on the grid at peak times, benefits me because the grid distribution utility doesn't need to spend as much money on increasing capacity or paying to build and maintain storage at rate-payers expense. They may pay a smaller fee to use some of that capacity in emergencies, but that's a heck of a lot cheaper than the capital expenditure needed to build it themselves.
As far as electrification being for the rich elite - How do you define electrification? Like, if you mean using electricity to power things instead of combustion, then that's not the case. Electric cooking, clothes drying, yardwork (prices vary significantly among options - li-ion battery ones can be expensive, but inexpensive corded electric lawnmowers like the one I grew up using have been around for decades.) - All of those exist at a variety of price points that are roughly comparable, and come with health benefits too. Electric water heating and space conditioning (including heating) price competitiveness varies significantly depending on local conditions, but in many cases are pretty comparable if you're already getting air conditioning (though obviously there are climates where that's not the case). If you aren't in an area with natural gas supply, like you use heating oil or coal, that may swing it towards electric more often depending on the utility. In my household's case we costed it at about par over the life of the appliances (after the government grant), if gas and electricity prices maintained their relative levels. Obviously that could change, but it's by no means certain which direction they'll go.
If you mean backup power, then yes, this is a lot more expensive than a whole home methane or propane generator system, though it also provides a lot of functionality that they don't, so you'd expect that. But also, most people don't buy whole home electrical backup, period, even rich people. That said, the existence of expensive systems doesn't disprove the existence of cheaper ones. There are significantly less expensive DIY battery systems out there. Though really, grid unreliability in many places isn't the sort of thing that the general public should normally be hedging themselves for individually in a well functioning system. If everyone around has backup generators, that may mean that something else has gone wrong in the regulatory and utility environment. Places with particularly frequent weather disasters or that sort of thing are exceptions, because there's only so much that a utility can do and only so far that society will go to devote resources to preparing for, as well as partly because many people tend not to want to live in places with frequent bad weather.
And if you mean electrification of generation, well, depending on where in the world you are, if you're already buying electricity, there are places where you can put money into buying from carbon neutral generation that can save you money. Not everywhere, but there are definitely community funded and subscribed solar and/or wind projects around that give their subscribers rates that are equal or better than those of the incumbent fossil powered utilities in their area.
Take heart. Progress is being made, though it is unevenly distributed. Lots of people are working on making life better in equitable ways. Hopefully their example brings more people on board to support those efforts.
I am impressed by this system and your nice install, i did't see your checking the 3 fase order. If you swop the 2 of the fase the pool pump in reverse 🤔 and who knows what the CT clamps are measuring. greetings from The Netherlands
@5:22 "step1:Unflod" ... good to see they're spell checking all their materials. This is the second or third time I've seen these exact looking modules, but under different brand names.
How much for that setup? Would love to know current monthly bill. then how much now after installation. That's the whole point of doing it.
Can the gateway be used with other equipment? I have 2 x 5.4 KWh pylontech batteries & a turbo hybrid inverter but want a whole house backup.
had mine installed for over two months..brillant system so far. really impressed especially with the AI system
Nice thanks for sharing!
1) What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different battery systems that you presented (Sigenergy, Tesla, MyEnergi, others ?) ? If there are significant differences - of course. And in which cases should one be chosen over the other ?
2) How to determine battery capacity ? On what basis ? Is there a program to calculate it ?
Thanks for the excellent vid. Is there a reason you cant share an approximate price range for it?
We Need these In Toronto Canada And the US :) ... come in handle with the Power outta All Utility Compony's should be Investing and you're Fiber Internet Cable subcribers
check PointGuard systems
Battery and swimming pool😮What could go wrong🤣🤣💥
This system is very similar to what I'm installing for a triplex on Maui to be completely off-grid. That's a lot of power for one family lol.
The size of the hinges on that "security" door behind Jordan at the end of the video!
When the pooo hits the fan, we all know where to go. Good move telling everyone.
At some point I'd like to install a battery and honestly, ~50kwh is the minimum I'd consider...nice to see something of this size working so well.
To answer your question of 3ph configuration - wye and delta. Delta is common on industrial motor loads. Most common is wye. I am from Canada and Americas may have differences from EU/UK but theories are similar.
Great video 🔝 well done!
3:03 to be 0, the inverter is always on and in phase with the mains, there's downsides to everything and this would also have one, most likely more power usage when it's not even being "used"
Amazing! Thank you for sharing this video, Greetings from Madang, Papua New Guinea!
Seen Cory's solar edge battery issue video, competition is a must and government level consumer protection also
So the whole installation was on a 100 amp 3 phase supply, it is now on a C?50 triple pole MCB 10KA feeding an MCCB DB with, in your own words much larger than normal MCCB’s, from past experience what you are saying is that the sub mains or plant requires protective devices higher than a standard DB at 63 amps. So how does the new supply meet those requirements ?
I have a 3 phase house with a Powerwall. I need to find a solution because I have 3 phase solar that won't charge the Powerwall if the grid is out, which is sorta dumb. I wanted to be off grid as much as possible, but I find that is not possible with my current setup.
Tesla Powerwall ❤❤
What a phenomenal system 😁👌👌👌👌❤️❤️
this is amazing .. we busy with a 50KW system 22 batteries and 102 550w panels
Looks a nice unit but I cant find mention of them meeting the new cyber security regulations. Warrenty looks just under what I have from Victron. The only advantage I can seen is that its all one module when I would need three inverters to match that. 0ms transfer is standard for my kit, i didnt know a lot of these gateways had such a transfer time. Thanks for the interesting video 👍
@17:05 Late shift and day 5! What the hell have you done all week! 😂
Other electrical jobs on site? One thing they didn't do is replace the damaged breaker they identified when shutting down the main panel.
Installing 74 solar panels, pulling in DC cables, Lots of work!
@@artisanelectrics Oh I thought you had done that on a previous visit. I'll let you off then! 😁
I could be wrong but it looks like once its all together if you need to replace a battery in the middle you would have to take the entire thing apart to get to it, unstack the ones on top, unscrew from the wall and remove those clamps on the side. This looks very inconvenient compare to the server rack mounted batteries I've seen out there that can be slid out to preform maintenance and replacement
Damn you, now I have serious inverter envy.
Have you looked at their single phase equipment? What’s the maximum power output and how does it compare with Givenergy and Tesla?
Their single phase inverters go up to 12kW so higher output than even the Powerwall 3.
Jordan . They have used an Mccb panel board to achieve selectivity between protective devices and that is the only reason .
What makes you say that?
@@artisanelectrics 20 years of experience.
Selectivity wouldn’t be achieved between mcbs . A busbar chamber and switch fuses is wasted space and labour .
Plenty of room in a 3 phase mcb board with spreader box . Terminals rated up to 50sq mm for size .
Just a tad skeptical on the 0msec claim. 5-8 msec would be normal. There has to be a time interval to sense a difference between the grid and what we expect the grid to be doing. Would love to see an actual waveform on the home side during a switchover.
Technically its 0.01msec
@@artisanelectrics that’s fast!!! And it’s a very clean setup! Very cool!
The packaging is not designed to do what you are doing how about a hand truck or dolly!
It's a huge battery stack.please also checked our batteries.
At 16.26 you strip the sheath of a 10 core cable with a Stanley knife potentially cutting in to the core insulation. Not unusual to so experienced pros do that because you guys know just how deep to cut, but is it not against recommended practice to do that risky cut than use measured strippers?
Good tips thanks!
As an alternative Sunsynk inverters can also provide 3 phase UPS they go up to a 75kWh inverter
You guys ever heard of a trolley? 😂😂
Out of interest, what was the cost for this system?
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
Hi Jordan, Im interested in installing a Sigenergy battery system at my property but am curious with Sigenergy being such a new edition to the UK market, what the support was like for them? And if there have been any teething issues with the systems that have been installed as they are so new and not widespread yet?
Hi Ben! It’s a fantastic system and no issues at all so far with any of the systems we have installed. Support is excellent - I have lots of technical questions which they answer promptly and they are constantly improving their documentation etc.
You boys and your modern kit gone are the days when I was an apprentice using a row plug tool 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Two tips from a retired IT guy: use proper lifting techniques and do - and test - all firmware updates before arriving on site.
haha. theory based advice. how exactly would they "test all firmware" on a unique device like that? Have a spare in he lock up? Impractical. 🤡
@@windsorchap Speaking from experience in the IT sector, your equipment should be tested and working before you turn up. It's not good when you turn up on site, install the equipment, perform an update, and the unit gets bricked.
@@QuentinStephens yes, you already said that. Think that's old school now. The point is that isn't practical in this scenario and now we have to assume they test this for us centrally and we don't need to..
48kwh is about half the capacity of an ev car. In the USA we only have single phase in office and residential units. 3 phase is for manufactoring.
Everyone wants to know but no one dares to ask. So I will. How much?
Great video. I've ordered a Sigenergy system for my single phase home, 16x (2x8) 455w solar, 6kW inverter and a 5kWh+8kWh batteries. Waiting on G99 DNO approval.
Would love to see more in depth app workings with the AI and TOU tariffs etc.
Doesn't matter if it's the most powerful or better, Tesla's famous and has a lock on the market (like apple) that it will not lose.
Que coisa mais linda! Muy hermoso! Amazing and incredible...I loved it! Congrats bro!
This is great !!!
I wonder how much commissioning issues is due to slow wireless far away from the router with obstructions and neighboring Channel conflicts and overlaps.
Anything that's gotta be wired in really should just be ethernet anyway. I know that's an extra step for the installation process but I'm sure it simplifies a ton of stuff in the long run. no need to reconfigure wireless networks by resetting the entire thing etc. just to change the wireless network. The number of times I've come back to straighten things out after the wireless network was reset and then all the neighboring devices need to be reconnected to the now different name.
Ethernet over power, TP Link AV600 if I can't wire straight from router. Great bit of kit
I am nearly persuaded to go with this rather than 2 powerwalls on three phase .
Would like to see a vid just on the app and info that can be accessed and extracted for monitoring purposes .
Victron systems can do this and have been able to for a while haven't they ? That said Victron is very modular and requires a fair bit of wireing.
I think in the intro you basically said that that the system was aimed at large houses or small businesses. Here in the Netherlands, 3 phase is not limited to large houses and my mid terrace house (3 floors and a supply of 3x25A) has three phase. I'm curious if this great looking system is really overkill for such a house. We only have a daily usage in the rough region of 10kWh and we have 16 panels that delivers a max of around 3kW.
I like the UPS feature but that's not entirely essential as we have not had a power outage in 20 years. Great video.
you can just use a smaller version of the one artisan installs in the video
Skipping half a sine wave is normal in powergids and electronic devices should be designed to handle that.
What a beast.
I know right ☺️
As a result of your promo video here I jumped from a pwerwall2 to this system as a choice .
However since the 3 has launched and this obviously made me think again , but if I understand correctly the 3 is still using an older gateway that won’t allow whole house back up as this Sigen does .
Is that correct ?
PW3 doesn’t allow whole house backup for three phase installs - also it is EPS whereas Sigen Gateway is UPS
Thanks for reply , I think if our installer can satisfy himself Sigen support is up to scratch it’s a buy,, he has good experience with Tesla support , so am hoping Sigen are ok .
That is a hefty amount of energy, sadly the max amount allowed un a single cabinet in the USA is 20kwh. Not sure if there are exceptions to that rule