Westley Richards Centerfire Monkey Tail Carbine
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- Опубліковано 17 кві 2022
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The Westley Richards "Monkey Tail" was a popular capping breechloader first designed in 1858. It was finally adopted by the British cavalry in 1866, and served until 1881. It was also a popular commercial rifle, especially in remote places like Australia and South Africa. It was named for the long lever on top of the action used to open and close the breech. In 1868, Westley Richards designed a centerfire version using a self-contained paper cartridge (somewhat like a Chassepot cartridge). Only 600 of these were ever made, and only 13 are known to still exist - including this one.
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Between 1850-1900 the rate of firearms technological development was insane, as soon as you patented something it was already obsolete.
@@losonsrenoster the fork and spoon is a thing that's pretty old far older
*cough cough* gewehr 88.
@@losonsrenoster sewers
@@losonsrenoster well, the basic action of the Gatling is pretty popular today. And that era saw the invention of interrupted screw breech-loading cannons.
@@losonsrenoster For reference:
Motorcycles, Cars, Trains, Pump-Action Shotguns, Cased Bullets, Mills and Lathes, plastics, airplanes, pharmaceuticals, asphalt, sewing machines, carpets, Iron Ships, Refrigerators, music players, printing presses. Microphones, Internal Combustion engines, telegraph, light bulbs, staplers, batteries, cement, matches, lighters, calculators, revolvers, rubber, bicycles, blueprints, tires, dishwashers, fiber optics, elevators, machine guns, Mass produced locks, dynamite, traffic lights, ballpoint pens, cameras and film, contact lenses, electric motors, smokeless powder, Motion Pictures, vacuum cleaners, shoe insoles. Drinking straws all were invented in the same century.
Caseless Black-powder cavalry carbine with Whitworth rifling? Yes please.
Finally! Information on a weapon that is iconic in South Africa due to it's popularity amongst the boers in the mid to late 1800's. It has been virtually impossible to find an in-depth look at it until now. Thank you Gun Jesus!
Yes, I was looking for video on the Westley Richards breechloaders just 2 weeks ago, got nothing worth mentioning.
I do believe that he also has a whole series on the Second Anglo-Boer War, covering everything from a Lee Speed from the Jameson Raid to some of the ZAR Mausers from the official Boer government purchases once war seemed inevitable.
@@luisnunes3863 Here is an original Boer paper cartridge one being fired:
ua-cam.com/video/zzP8HALhBjI/v-deo.html
I've recently found the my hometown was the first to mass produce rifle scopes. People who are raised here have no idea of the history of Malcolm Scopes. It would be interesting to see the development of scopes on Forgotten Weapons. I know Ian has touched on a few, but there is a wealth of interesting history to touch on here.
An optics history video would be awesome, I really hope he does that. Kinda seems like we’ve hit a plateau with firearms development and all the meaningful improvement is in stuff like optics now.
Love the variety in intermediate design ideas between the older 'common' firearms that people probably know about, and the modern ones.
Monkey Tail - perfect name for it. If I was around in 1868, I think that’s a nice, practical firearm I would probably want to own.
The Westley Richards factory used t9 be a few hundred yards from my home before they relocated. Still in business today with rifles starting at only $60k or so
Basically looks like a Springfield trap door with a long lever. But with paper cartridges instead of metallic cartridges.
I was thinking it was basically a trapdoor breech with an extra out-of-battery safety.
Was thinking the same thing upon first viewing. Interesting all the engineering that went into breechloaders as they moved from paper to metallic cartridges.
There’s something beautiful about see low serial numbers under 1000 makes really think about a time when the inviter probably had his hand on every bit of that rifle
I’ve been hoping to see something from Westley Richards on the channel! I have a Westley Richards safari rifle, built on an action and with the .450 musket cartridge that might have been the Martini-Henry, if it had won the trial! It’s quite a pleasant gun.
Edit: Ian I should say, if you’d like to get a look at it, I’m always happy to spread the good word of WR rifles.
Very nice rifle.
Keep it in good condition and it will be a gem for your following generations.👍🏼
You might want to email Ian direct at his email under the description. He can't read all the comments.
While the modern stuff is nice enough, this is what keeps me coming back!
The cartridge is normal paper (‘Yellow Fine’) and not nitrated. The pressure forces the wad into the breech as the seal whilst the paper powder case is tied to the bullet and dragged out with it, immediately being discarded somewhat charred and the same with any split bits of paper. When the next round is chambered its bullet butts up against the old wad and, when fired, pushes it up the barrel. Being soaked in grease it cleans the bore as it goes. The bullet is paper patched and the patch is also greased so the bore remains s clean for repeated fire. Given a mould the design is amenable to improvised self construction and, the older percussion capping version at least, came with a metal plug to protect the chamber when loaded at the muzzle if wanted. Initially loading a greased wad to sit as a seal on the metal plug. Handy for cheap use in civilian hands and popular with South African civilians who could use a simple patched round ball.
This channel makes me want to get a c&r license and get all the mechanically weird guns
I can grasp the concept that there probably are no longer any of the actual paper cartridges around that still exist but I feel it would have been really nice to have at least seen a drawing or patents sketch of some form!
Thank you, Ian. I have never heard of this system before. Its similarity to the Allin Conversion for Springfield muskets is amazing. Considering the date of its introduction I have to believe Erskine Allin had seen it before producing his trapdoor conversion for the military.
Thats a really nice little rifle. Would look right at home in a saddle scabbard somewhere. Cheers Ian.
Am I alone in really wanting to see what these paper cartridges with primer caps look like?
you are not alone
Probably very similar to a 1866 Chassepot round. There are several youtube vids showing how to make the Chassepot rounds.
Would love to see some of the field equipment that they would use for making some of these obscure paper cartridges!
If you check out British Muzzleloader he has some episodes on making paper cartridges.
Link to one of their playlists
ua-cam.com/play/PLkOVIw4NSWVKLj6tnVaE13GshHB8uxbK2.html
Check out the capandball channel, he often shows how he makes paper cartridges for various guns.
@@alexanderthomas2660 also Duelist 1954 has some videos on paper cartridges.
I read this title as "Centerfire Monkey TRIAL Carbine". I was VERY excited to hear Ian tell about the military testing a gun to see how well lower primates could use it!
Westley Richards did the gunsmithing for Isombard Brunei’s research into octagonal bores. Brunel let Westley Richards show it all to Whitworth before Whitworth began his work. Brunel refused to patent the concept but old man Whitworth was less scrupulous and patented the hexagonal bore, but Brunei’s was octagonal. The stamping on the MT of Whitworth patent was to keep Whitworth sweet. But both Westley Richards and Whitworth knew that any patent royalty claim would be defeated by all the evidence of Brunel and Westley Richards’ earlier work and prior correspondence and examination by Whitworth of the polygonal bore. So no patent payments were ever made.
FWIW even before Brunel’s work an experimental version of the Brunswick rifle was made by the Royal Manufactory (later to be Enfield) to a design on a Sergeant Major of the Household cavalry with a pentagonal bore. Not to mention the polygonal bore has been used since generations before any of these.
Cynically I believe that Whitworth only used the hexagonal bore rather than the superior octagonal so that he could seek his own patent. Even though the narrower corners could not be kept free of fouling in extended use.
The Boers used to call them the Wessel Trichaardt, (a common name amongst the Boers).
Some of the best riflemen of all times the Boers were.
The company are still going, UA-cam won't let me post the URL but searching his name will find it.
Bespoke builds only starting at £85000 (US$111000).
Maybe Ian should visit them and make a video next time he's in London.
I like the size of this carbine it's probably very maneuverable on horseback or in thick brush. 20 rounds per minute sustained isno slouch either. Sweet gun. Bet the auction value is through the roof. One of thirteen? Yikes, fireplace collector (we haven't seen his place in a long while) is likely to snatch this up, well maybe, he seems to like semi autos the most.
I am very suspicious of the claim of 20 rounds per minute. 20 well aimed rounds per minute is actually no mean feat for the slower magazine fed bolt actions with stripper clips, like the Mauser 98.
Maybe in the hands of a very well practiced trick shooter who doesnt really aim 20 rounds per minute is doable. For the typical infantrymen taking proper aim the Monkey Tail should have a maximum rate of fire similar to the Snider Enfield or Springfield Trapdoor, around 10 rounds per minute.
These are some of my favorite, if not favorite types of firearms you make videos about. The unknown/fairly unknown evolutionary models of firearm systems. Thank you.
I find this design to be very appealing visually. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Correction to below. To quote Westley Richards - ‘the firer is advised to place a small iron block into the chamber from the breech-end, take a small greased wad and place it between the block and plunger and then close down the lever’ The iron cylindrical block was supplied with commercial Monkey Tails.
Wow what a gorgeous piece of kit! Would be astounding with bullet mold, cleaning kit, case for caps etc.
Always pleased with your presentations.
Some of the names of these old guns are quiet eccentric and fascinating, and to some very descriptive.
Synchronicity! I just watched Rob at British Muzzleloaders with his covering of an event and he saw some Monkey Tails - I had no idea what they were so just looked it up, Finished reading that and this pops up. Thank you so much Ian.
Fascinating! Thanks Ean, for another great video!
Thank you. This rifle caught my interest in the 2000s on the Anglo-Boer wars. Hardly any information available except from at least two websites. The best breechloader rifle musket in the 1890s when drawn brass cartridges were in short supply but have plenty of powder, percussion caps, and wad around in a relatively underdeveloped remote area like southern Africa. Being a percussion rifle you can take your time to load it like a muzzleloader despite it being a caplock breechloader. One of the best rifles made for third world use against a first world military force.
"Let me show you what that entails..."
Ian got jokes!
We need to get Ian the kind of funds he needs to have ammo made for something like this. Seeing stuff like this on the range in "tomorrows episode" would be all the droooool :P
Thank you for all you do
Awesome piece thank you Ian
Love your videos bro, hope you had an amazing Easter! Thank you for always teaching me something new
Thanks for covering this interesting design , never seen the mechanism in such detail.Great work!
WR also made some very nice sporting rifles using this system. I have also seen a long range match rifle and very accurate is was too.
Thank you for this video! I was concerned that this was becoming the SMG Channel
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
Someone needs to make a belt-fed version of that weapon because why not. Belt-fed caseless ammo carbine.
After each video I always say to myself "no, thank YOU Ian"!
Have a great week
That thing is pretty slick!
I’m guessing that the remains of the fired cartridge are pushed forward by the next cartridge inserted and blown out with the next shot. I like the idea of the greased felt wad working like it does as a gas seal on one shot and a lubricant on the next to reduce fouling.
They're either fully ejected or burned up entirely. Otherwise the next cartridge will most likely explode out of battery, upon loading.
@@SlavicCelery My problem with your theory is Newtonian physics. The explosion of the charge is in front of the wad and percussion cap. As the explosion is pushing the bullet forward down the barrel, it is pushing the wad and cap back onto the breach face. There is a possibility that the wad is non-flammable, such as wool.
@@danliberty734 the wad is directly behind the bullet and ahead of the powder. The force of the explosion forces it down the muzzle. Behind the powder stops the detonation from happening.
@@danliberty734 Think wad like shotgun shells. Putting the wad between the cap and the powder makes a non-functional cartridge.
@@SlavicCelery Traditionally, yes, but my understanding of Ian’s description is the wad is a gas seal for the breach, not the bullet, and the firing pin punches through it to hit the primer.
Would loved to see this shot but as over 100 years old may be not
Could smell and taste gunpowder while watching this keep up with the excellent informative quality content Ian
Bestest from Scotland
Being a British made rifle shouldn't this arm be described as being "centrefire" rather than "centerfire"?
Really cool. Should be interesting to see what it sells for. Lot #1136 in the May 18, 2022 auction.
Superb video. I do prefer your older stuff but that's just personal preference.
Awesome information, thanks
What an interesting design! It's almost a Trapdoor Springfield. This sounds like it would be right up British Muzzleloaders' street! Would love to see one of these actually run.
A fascinating system. That is a gigantic firing pin. I kinda dig it, though.
It certainly works.
I dig that swept back hammer design
Well that name is certainly a mouthful lol
"Wesley Richards Combustible Self-Contained center-fire cartridge carbine"
"but its not just ANY Monkeytail..."
considering I'd never even heard of the common ones this should be a treat.
Hi, Ian. This is a BSP rifle! Before Steam Punk. It almost qualifies. Thanks for sharing! Stay Healthy!
Very much look forward to the future video of self contained brass cartrdge centerfire version. I am guessing Snider conversions were more successful than this.
First version would have been a great candidate for the Maynard tape primer.
You need to do a video of the cartridge that goed with this rifle. It would be interesting to see how it differs from the Chassepot needle rifle cartridge
"show you what that entails" good one
These remind me of the Pauly system, minus the cartridges.
"what that entails" uhuh I see what you did there
Fun facts it's also the model of 1924 Enfield capping breech-loader of the empire of new Britain in the destroyermen books
Someone should make a modern replica of this... a black powder caseless carbine with whitworth rifling. I'd snap that up without hesitation
Even if it was made with standard rifling that would be awesome.
The early version (paper cartridge & separate percussion cap) would make a great post apocalypse gun.
Kinda has a Rolling Block feel to the hammer swinging down also locking the action.
I wish you could do test firing with this, but I totally understand why you aren't going to.
If they ran out of lead was there anything they could use instead? Maybe not in rifled muskets, but smoothbore, like rocks, etc?
You made my day!!
Thank you.
Ian, any chance you could look at more recent UK handguns? Thinking of the AT88S (1990?) & the Sterling .357 DA revolver (1980s?).
Would be nice to see a drawing of the "cartridge".
i thought the Boers all had Mausers...this is a very nice and handy looking gun
I think that may have been the second time when Churchill was involved.
@@doctorverruckt5114 There are Forgotten Weapon videos on the 2nd Boer War Mausers. A lot of guns happened between 1880 and 1899...
Those were bought shortly before the Second Boer War. Ian tells the story in detail in his Boer War Mauser video.
The Boers used what ever they could get their hands on.😉
The Boers adopted this gun in the 60's and 70's before magazine fed bolt actions and smokeless powder became the norm. The mauser really came into the market in the 90's.
Nice thumbnail like usual
800 yards that would be 1 hell of a shot!
Thanks Ian! An interesting design…monkey tail???
thats a really cool design actually. beats the hell out of a muzzle loader!
Amazing.
Ian where could one find patent info on the WR monkey tail type locks and paper cartridges?
I expected this to be much more like a needle fire breech loader. I would love to see the schematic of the cartridge.
The lenght of the firing pin makes me think that it is almost a hybrid between needle fire and percussive primer fire. The primer seems to be seated fairly deep in the paper cartridge, much like in a needle fire. Just a reflection from me.
@@RiderOftheNorth1968 Guessing the primer is seated inside the cartridge past the felt obturator wad.
@@RiderOftheNorth1968 good observation, the firing pin is rather fat and long
@@g-dcomplex1609 Fat and long.... Yeah thats ONE way to put it.... lol.
@@Kaboomf Exactly!
I use one of these regularly (albeit the separate paper cartridge and percussion cap version).
I would take issue with one thing Ian said, namely that (in the percussion cap version at least) the greased wad at the rear of the cartridge does not disappear up the barrel after the bullet. Its whole purpose is to seal the breech and thus the black powder explodes in front of it, pushing it back against the brass breech face and sealing any gaps. It remains at the back of the chamber and when you open up the tail for the next shot, there it is.
What you then did was to load the next paper cartridge, pushing the old felt wad up the barrel in front of it. This not only saved you from having to hook it out, but it had been slightly flattened to the diameter of the chamber and was thus larger than the bore. That way, it scraped its way up the barrel in front of the bullet when you fired it, clearing out much of the fouling.
Yes - it seems counter-intuitive to us today to have something in front of the bullet (bore obstruction!) but that's what was done. I must admit, I don't, and an old dentist's pick comes in handy to hoik out the old wad.
The "bolt" set up (as Ian called it), with the brass plunger, is exactly the same as in the versions I shoot, except that there is no firing pin of course. The rear wad would therefore be needed to seal the breech, and it would need to have a hole in it to let the firing pin pass. (The length the pin protrudes does look about right for the thickness of wad we use when making the paper cartridges).
Why would the percussion cap be blown out of the gun instead of getting smashed into the breach?
Hello Ian ! I was wondering if you have any information on the Rhodesian kommando? Im struggling the nitty gritty details of the trigger group!
Does it have anything keeping it locked besides the hammer? It seems to just open right up.
Why single point sling if it also has a sling swivel on the front barrel band?
I looks like it could be slung either way. If this was for commercial sale rather than strictly for cavalry issue, it gives the owner the option with minimal extra production cost.
I wonder how well this stood against black powder fouling. While the chamber and mechanism should be pretty well protected I'm sure the rifling and the bore got fairly tight as firing went on.
Actually it doesn't! (Well, not so much as you'd think, anyway).
I use one of these regularly, albeit in the separate paper cartridge and perussion cap set up.
The one thing I would take issue with Ian on is that (in the percussion cap version at least) the greased wad at the rear of the cartridge does not disappear up the barrel after the bullet. Its whole purpose is to seal the breech and thus the black powder explodes in front of it, pushing it back against the brass breech face and sealing any gaps. It remains at the back of the chamber and when you open up the tail for the next shot, there it is.
What you then did was to load the next paper cartridge, pushing the old felt wad up the barrel in front of it. This not only saved you from having to hook it out, but it had been slightly flattened to the diameter of the chamber and was thus larger than the bore. That way, it scraped its way up the barrel in front of the bullet when you fired it, clearing out much of the fouling.
Yes - it seems counter-intuitive to us today to have something in front of the bullet (bore obstruction!) but that's what was done. I must admit, I don't, and an old dentist's pick comes in handy to hoik out the old wad.
It's not perfect and , yes, the mechanism does get fouled after a while, but this is a carbine designed for cavalry scouts and the like, and they aren't likely to be firing continuous volleys. From my experience, I'd have been happy to have had one of these back in the day. It IS accurate and I can get a 3-5" group at 100 yards, which isn't bad for a black powder, paper cartridge setup.
The greased felt wad at the rear of the cartridge remains behind on firing and is pushed up the barrel by the nose of the next round. Greasing and wiping the barrel on each shot.
What is the difference in rimfire and centrefire in a paper cartridge? Advantages and disadvantages?
Metallic cartridges are almost certainly more consistent than paper cartridges, making them more accurate. I'm not sure what all the advantages of centerfire over rimfire are but one of them is that centerfire cartridges can be reloaded.
I really wish you'd spent more time looking at the locking system. It looks VERY interesting, for it's age.
the firing pin is free-float? no spring?
Immersed in saltwater for 48 hours? That seems to be unreasonable.
You could make your own paper cartridge so what held the primer in place for the firing pin to hit? or has this one been converted to take brass cartridges. there does not seem to be any extractor for cartridges.
Friction, the combined friction from the rest of the cartridge, being the ball and powder packed pretty tight, and probably a good, hefty firing spring giving the primer a good thump.
Look up videos on making the similar cartridges for the Chassepot.
@@roadsweeper1 I would be surprised if some powder and paper would hold the primer in the correct position. this must be converted to take a brass case.
@@magamike1800 The first self contained PAPER cartridge was patented in 1808, only shortly after the percussion cap was invented. .... I think they knew what they were doing...and made the concept work just fine... That rifle has no extractor (as stated in the video), pretty convincing evidence it did NOT use a metallic cartridge...
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
God bless all here.
Brass at the breech face? "helped with the seal" ? Don't understand. Maybe easily replaceable. Black powder pressures were no big deal for brass?
The sealing was done with the greased wad that formed the base of the cartridge.
a little similar in style to the pauley action
I need one for my wall!!
'Argument--armament'...sounds about right.
For a sec there I thought you were going to say that they used actual monkey tails.
The action remains me of Samuel Pauly 👌🏼
So do any guns of the time actually work after being left in seawater for 24 hours?
I'd love to own and shoot a working replica of this
Shoot an original - I do!
(The separate paper cartridge and percission cap version, that is).