@@Deltanium2080 Not really? What stage has come back as much as Green Hill and has been complained about in every iteration. Frontiers isn't even out yet, and the fact green hill is there in any way is concerning to many.
@@AizakkuAnalysis It gets to a point where the new fans would welcome it as a ‘New’ thing more than the old fans hating it. It’s like the New Super Mario Bros. Issue in a way where fatigue is felt, but it’s still a solid game for its own merits. Sonic no longer has that luxury. And it’s not like IIzuka can say no. It’s either do what he’s told from corporate or he can walk out. From what we’ve seen from devs walking out from Sega over the years, I feel their reasons are justified.
Ah Green Hill Zone, the place that taught me how to spin, roll and run around with its amazing music and level design, now reduced to a cheap nostalgia bait as an inclusion, to pander to nostalgia.
And the nostalgia effect is getting weaker and weaker Like bruh you cant be nostalgic if it's always present. Aquatic ruins zone feels more nostalgic to me than green hill
I remember when stages like Sunset Hill came out, they felt like cute little callbacks to the classic Green Hill Zone while also having their own unique look to them. Nowadays, almost every new game is just them using the exact same Green Hill will minor changes like replacing the water with sand or this one has a glitchy effect in the background.
It's the funniest thing in the world to me that by the time we've reached Frontiers Green Hill's iconography has been so far removed from the initial context that made it significant that now it just exists in a literal vacuum.
What I hated about Forces' GHZ is what's stopping Sonic from running along the sand dunes? I want to explore those instead of walking in a straight line! At least in Sonic 1, SA2 and partly in Generations, the water in the zone is stopping Sonic from leaving the normal area you travel on. You can also tell that the part of the island GHZ is at has high cliffs all over the place, forcing Sonic into one direction. What Forces did was make the background scenery look so good, I want to explore that instead!
Seaside Hill was a *lot* more tolerable due to how much its aesthetic was varied. You had the beach area, the turtle platforms, the temple, the ocean ruins. People didn't notice because so much happens in that level that none of it ever feels repetitive. Green Hill is always just Green Hill.
To be able to use GHZ to the same degree as SHZ would require cramming in the 2 other related Sonic 1 zones of Marble and Labrynth (marble has the green and purple rocks, labrunth was designed to come right after GHZ and is watery)
Y'know what's funny? I vividly remember being really excited back in 2012 after Generations came out. I remember thinking "Aw man, Generations was so good! I can't wait to see what they come up with next! Maybe for the 40th, we'll have a Generations 2 with a bunch of levels that came out in the 20 years since the First." It's been 10 years, and the only stage we've gotten that I'd argue wasn't a rehash was fucking Dessert Ruins from Lost World, and that was a floating pink void with pancakes in the background. It's been 10 years and we haven't had a proper original stage idea since Colours.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios the fact that Forces had only like 4 unique locations and the rest was nostalgia bait speaks volumes for the state of this franchise.
It's a kinda cool reminder that despite everything, Whispy adapts to the main game gimmick. My favorite cases being the Robot version of Whispy in planet robobot, the twin woods in Kirby Super star being a fun way to destroy him with your ally and when the adventure is outside the regular pop star they throw variations like Tropical woods and King Golem. I feel like Green Hill shouldn't be only the mandatory first level but also a cool way to represent what makes the game unique with a familiar face, but as far as I know, green hill will be probably only in the cyberspace, I doubt they can do something cool instead of repeating generations level with less assets Darn even Dk tropical freeze made something cooler (no pun intended) making the last world being a repeat the last game worlds but with a glacier aesthetic working as a great way to show the damage caused by the main villain
I also like how some of these variations are tied to the plot of the game (King Golem being a mirror dimension version of Whispy in Amazing Mirror, Flowery Woods being turned from a regular blooming flower to a version of Whispy thanks to Taranza in Triple Deluxe, Clanky Woods being basically robotized Whispy in Planet Robobot, while technically not Whispy, Yggy Woods serves a similar purpose but as a harder version in Star Allies and Tropical Woods in Forgotten Lands).
@@CrashCubeZeroOne yeah that was a cool showcase of how this game played a ton with that type of movement I recall a lot of times in that game where they do this type of gimmicl
I do like you're comparison to Whispy here. Whereas Green Hill as a stage slowly faded away with it's spirit inspiring other stages before they just kept bringing it back, Whispy was brought back as early as the second game. I feel like that should tell you he's supposed to be a reoccurring character. It's not even like they've done nothing with him. Modern Kirby has done a lot of interesting things with him as a first boss with stuff like Flowery, Clanky and as of recently Tropic Woods. I know I've slowly strayed further from the topic of the video, but I just kinda wanted to talk about my favourite tree since he was brought up.
What also doesn't help is SEGA are so obsessed with saying "HEY LOOK! THIS! YOU REMEMBER THIS! NOSTALGIA!!!" While Kirby games are way more chill and it doesn't come across as super obnoxious.
@@YujiUedaFan What makes Kirby consistent is Shinya Kumazaki, he been with the Kirby series since the Nightmare in Dream Land. He took over when making Kirby games, after Masahiro Sakurai stoped. The problem Sonic is that Yuji Naka left Sega after 06, to make matters worse Sega even lost the team that made Sonic Unleashed. So without Yuji Naka, Naoto Ohshima, or Yoshihisa Hashimoto, Sonic Team has a really hard time figuring out how to evolve Sonic.
@@orangeslash1667 Iizuka also has a weird take on things. He's trying to chase trends, without realising that it doesn't matter how fast you run, if you're just going to slam into a wall and make a fool of yourself anyway.
He literally explains the difference in this video. Wispy Woods is a tradition. It's expected. Sonic USED to be known for trying to have original levels in nearly every game. Or levels INSPIRED by Green Hill zone rather than literally reusing it over and over
It also helps that Whispy and other returning bosses get spiced up with meaningful changes or lore while Green Hill has literally just been an aesthetic whether you boost through it or not. It is so bad that Windy Hill barely has an identity even with a new song and mechanics. The Smash version is saved by a unique layout and curving stage but is still more similar than it needs to be. Generations and SA2 did some stuff to make GHZ stick out more besides Mania being creative in general, but that's three games which are a decade apart each.
Sonic fights Eggman in almost every Sonic game. What's your point? A recurring boss and reusing Green Hill in every game are not even close to the same thing.
Wispy Woods is different in every game. Are you capable of having original thoughts? Because I've seen this same non-argument comment repeated 14 times and I'm tired of responding to it.
@@thelastgogeta Agreed! A good example of how unique Whispy Woods fights can be is in Dream Land 3, where he starts to chase you when he's got half of his health left. The one with his Planet Robobot counterpart starts the same, but after the chase, you fight him back in a 2.5 enviroment. In Kirby 64, you have to attack his children first, then you throw his apples at his roots to defeat him! Even giving him a different look or having to fight him alongside a copy goes a long way from making his fights distinct from eachother. If Kirby games were like Sonic's, all of them would just be: Tree throws apples. Eat and throw them back at it 'till it dies.
It’s crazy. Green Hill Zone has gone from being a well known, iconic location in the Sonic series to being nostalgia bait, to now being “status quo corporate” zone nowadays.
Yeah he tries to use Seaside Hill as an argument, and then he lists a bunch of games I never fucking played (except for the racing games those rule) lmao.
An interesting thing about people criticizing Whispy is that you never see people in the Kirby community really do so, he's only criticized as a response to Sonic reusing Green Hill. The reason is that everyone loves Whispy because Whispy almost always changes, literally the only time you could make an argument that Whispy was the same outside of remakes (Spring Breeze in Super Star/Ultra and Nightmare in Dream Land) would be in the second ever Kirby game Adventure. The boss fight in Adventure is basically identical to the one in Dream Land 1 with very minimal changes, the only other Whispy battles you could argue are too similar are maybe some of the ones in spin off games like for example Whispy in the Kirby Clash games is mostly a rehash of Flowery Woods from Triple Deluxe. But I don't really mind there because the boss still feels very different and Kirby Clash reuses plenty of bosses anyway, so why criticize Whispy there specifically when Whispy changes more than other bosses like Pyribbit? I think a better argument to compare Green Hill Zone to would be Green Greens in Kirby. It's the face of the series and it's theme is present in almost all the games, but the actual level isn't really reused for the most part. In Adventure and it's remake Nightmare in Dream Land, it's reused in the final level of the game...but that is the most praised level in the entire game. It's a level that uses GameBoy sprites all over, taking you through a trunkated version of the first game. It was a great way to establish that Kirby would always be about remembering it's history while also always doing something completely new with it. Aside from the remake of Dream Land 1 in the two Super Star games, you'll be hardpressed to find a level similar to Dream Land 1 until Star Allies in 2018. That level being the final extra level of the game and using the GameBoy aesthetic once again, it even has a unique ending. Plus Star Allies is all about Kirby's history, so not including Green Greens would make no sense. If we look at every first level in Kirby games, even counting spin offs than we can see that they all have their own identities.
Well said! Even then, Adventure was originally supposed to be an NES port of Dream Land, so it makes sense that his, Kracko's (mostly the pattern), and Poppy Bros. Sr.'s fights would be really similar.
Crazy to think that SA2 actively kept Green Hill Zone as a reward after getting all of the emblems considering how much it's used as the first stage nowadays.
Ok I’ll admit I was expecting a worn out video on nostalgia pandering but it became a defense of Green Hill and a sign of forgiveness to Izuka, also Sega probably wants to stop paying Nakamura royalties by now
My problem with Green Hill returning in every fucking game since Generations, is that Sonic was never known to be fond of Green Hill all that much, and hell he's not even from Green Hill. It was the first stage of his first game, but it takes place in South Island, who Sonic was visiting because he heard the Chaos Emeralds were there and saw Eggman going there to find them. So it's not like Sonic is coming back to visit his childhood home or anything, because again he wasn't from South Island but Christmas Island. Ever since Sonic 2 and specially Adventure, Sonic kept moving forward and exploring new ideas. Like you said Emerald Hill and others took what worked in Green Hill and went further beyond with it, and kept moving the franchise forward no matter what. But ever since Generations, Green Hill is just....back, and for no real reason. Windy Hill being an exact copy of Green Hill in the fucking sky makes no sense and brings nothing to the narrative of Lost World nor its setting the Lost Hex. Green Hill being the size of a continent in Forces makes even less sense and shouldn't even be in the game in the first place, but it has to be because "it is Sonic's first stage" even though from 1992 to 2010 it was never, EVER brought back other than a secret bonus level in Adventure 2 (Sunset Hill being a homage to it, but not a direct moment in Sonic's history where Green Hill was brought back.) It is also very lazy of Sega and Sonic Team to give excuses to keep bringing it back, such as Frontiers' "Well Cyberspace is made of Sonic's memories so OF COURSE it would be all rehashed, old levels!". It's really annoying. Don't ever get me started on Chemical Plant and Sky Sanctuary either.
In SA2 it gave kinda sense. South Island is a Island that moves in the Ocean, which means it was close to city escape and i guess Sonic checks the place out in a short time
@@themissingbits6375 And even then, Green Hill played no role in SA2's story, it was a neat reward and callback for 100%ing the game, and because it was the 10th anniversary of the series. Also how did South Island's green hill morph into a continent in Forces wtf, it even breaks the whole "South Island moves in the ocean" thing because now part of it is part of the main terrain of the Earth.
We've seen Green Hill Zone countless times, Sonic doesn't live there. He lives on Christmas Island. Station City Square deserves more credit, Not Green Hill Zone.
What pisses me off the most, is that it doesn't even look like a hill in Frontiers. On Generations, and to some extent on Forces too, it looks like a place - a fantasy place, but it seems "real", you can see rock formations, lots of grass and trees, caves, waterfalls... In Frontiers, the stage's looking like those orange hot wheels tracks, but instead of orange it's bright green and dark green. Everything that "wow'd" you in Generations doesn't exist anymore. It's just a floating track that reminds us of Green Hill.
Tbh, forces green hill felt like that in some places but I'll give it a pass since it's supposed to be destroyed. I believe the cyberspace levels feel lifeless because of story reasons but I'd rather they just didn't exist at this point. Either that or make appropriate new landscapes instead of rehashing the same tired tropes.
I think my favourite green hill type zone is palmtree panic because the music and the zone feels like such a good welcome to sonic CD with the yay sound effect in the Ben and the sick loop at the beginning of the first act and this feel Carries on to the past and good future (the bad future just sounds sick and futuristic) I also forgot to mention that there are so many paths you can take and explore!
Unfortunately, if Sega stopped including GHZ, some fans would be like 'where's green hill zone?' So they're kind of stuck in between the nostalgia that's now the norm
I doubt that. I can't imagine that people are excited to go through Green Hill Zone for the 40th time. It's just a filler episode before we get to the new stages.
Of course people will ask after they included it in every single game. But I assure you, as long as the game is good, no one will care if it is left out. You could remove it entirely from frontiers and no one would care.
its crazy that colors was the only mainline game in the 2010s where the game is entirely original stages looking forward to frontiers i do like what iv'e seen so far hope its good
I really think Green Hill In Adventure 2 was the best call back, because it wasn’t a mandatory stage and just a (hard as dicks to unlock,) bonus stage, and it stays true to the source material, down to even having the same layout as the original, and as mark- i mean mark’s friend, said, a bonus for Sonic’s 10th anniversary. Also I so badly wish we got a better second Sonic stage than Windy Hill in the Smash Bros franchise, there’s so many cool set pieces in the Sonic series to choose from and we get a worse green hill
Personally, it’s never made sense to me for sonic to be back in green hill zone because unlike Mario and Kirby who live in the locale of their first levels, sonic doesn’t live on South Island. He has no reason to return there. He has a plane in he first game so he probably just flew there to stop Robotnik.
Hi! Editor here! I never wanna see Green Hill Zone in my life Thank you to Ma- I MEAN SplashDash! For offering this amazing opportunity. And you might see more of me on this channel soon! :D
Some of the games that didn't start with or have GHZ: - Colors - Adventure 1 - Sonic 3 and knuckles - 06 - black knight - secret rings - riders and zero gravity that aside, love generation's version of GHZ the most among the 3d games
Green Hill Zone is something I wouldn't mind seeing in merchandise and pop culture, because those are really places where it should belong curently. Seeing it being spewn in multiple mainline games in a row as obvious first level gets so repetive it eventually becomes comical. The franchise should be able to move forward with original level themes while at least attempt being consistant with current modern Sonic aesthetic. That didn't stopped games like Unleashed or Colors for having different level ideas so why not continue that?
@@Marc-rw3dd I think they should do a Mania 2 with all new zones, BUT bring back Scrap Brain as the final level. Kinda like an inversion of the first Mania.
In Mario Odyssey they actually do remake 1-1 in a theater in New Donk City but it’s just a small tribute to Mario’s legacy along side the many other references to games like Mario 64 and it’s also just small side mission to get 2 moons in a game with a bunch of new stuff while green hill zone, like you said it’s just aesthetics and doesn’t pay and respects to what made the level so good with Generations and Mania being sorta the exceptions to this but still.
I feel like the best comparison to the green hill debacle would be the koopalings from mario. A sudden return that fans loved at first but got tired as the next 2 2d mario games and all the spinoffs became inundated with having the koopalings with the worst offender being mario kart 8's inclusion of them but lack of fan favorites like bowser jr and diddy kong.
@@cameronstone4495 I’d argue the Mario one is worse and definitely worth talking about, imagine playing 3 different games with the same 14 boss fights per game with the only different boss being whatever happens in world 8.
@@gamercentral2417 nah bruh the open worlds looks messy and contrasting as ever and they look really bland, the need to polish it up or delay unless they are done but not showing it yet, which isn’t the case because of the demo, they are showcasing all the cinematic s and cutscenes for a reason, to hype up moments that are just cutscenes and making gameplay shots very fast so you don’t notice how bad the map design is. This game is not worth $60
So uh… what was the point he was trying to make? Because it sounded like he just said “It’s okay with Mario and Kirby because those stuff were meant to be traditional, while Grenn Hill was not”…. like, how do you know that?
I honestly would have been fine with green hill zone if they didn’t just blatantly throw in the same level theme over and over again to cut costs, and instead reused it in clever ways. Like look at Kirby. Wispy woods is a staple, but it isn’t always the same thing. One game, you’re fighting a flowery version of him, shooting flower blades and Gordos from the background, and the next, he’s literally a killer robot chasing you through levels. Same goes for meta knight, king dedede, and kracko. All these fights gets remixed in ways that not only works for the story, but also is just really fun and creative on it’s own. Green hill zone doesn’t have that. What if in forces greenhill zone was being bombed, with forest fires and explosions all over the background? Or in sonic 4 green hill zone could be partially mechanized, showing eggman’s impact on the environment, honoring the original “nature vs industrialism” theme. Forces green hill had a small amount of elements that helped drive its dried up theme forward, like the faded flowers rotating pathetically compared to the healthy ones, but it wasn’t enough, and the gameplay wasn’t any better. Frontiers is kinda getting there, but at this point it’s far too late. We just want something new.
I think Green Hill as the concept of the first stage is what we should differentiate when it comes down to talking about Green Hill itself. A lot of poeple tend to forget other Green Hill like stages like Sonic Advance 2's Leaf Forest, Sonic Rush's first stage, Emerald Coast in SA1, and Seaside Hill from Heroes. Those are great Green Hill like stages and they work well for that intention. I kust wish SEGA understood that more often instead of just giving us Green Hill for the third (fourth if you count Mania) time in the Modern Era
leaf forest and emerald coast look completely different from green hill, having a grassland aesthetic doesn't immediately make it a "green hill stage", emerald coast also had a more beach aesthetic.
I don't get how Mario can have adventures in the mushroom kingdom with the same level dynamics (e.g grassland, desert, ice place), but the minute green hill zone comes along everybody goes crazy.
Because Mario levels (in 2D at least) were ALWAYS tropey. Grass world. Desert World. Water World. Etc. Sonic levels had way more personality than that (like having names), and nowadays, Green Hill has become just as bland and tropey as Mario Grass levels. There was a clear degradation of Green Hill. Mario's Grass World just stayed roughly the same. No real drop in quality. The most that's been done with Green Hill in terms of not being bland is flooding it with sand... but that level was like a minute long and really didn't do anything with the sand half of the level.
I honestly do not mind Green Hill so much. It makes a good tutorial stage with it's simplicity. The only time I do not like where it makes no sense at all. Forces was acceptable, it made sense with Generations, and here in Frontiers it makes sense. I certainly would like it more if they changed stuff up with the appearance, like they tried to do with Forces and how it appeared in that.
@sonic 1995 Forces: Globe trotting adventure and tries to add a new element to it. Frontiers: Cyberspace are based on Sonic's memories, so works in the same vain as Generations. As well as that, stages have that alternate, cyber look to it.
@sonic 1995 Naw, stupid arguments do not deserve a good response. I do not see how I am damage controlling when I could not care one way or the other if Green Hill is used or not.
I don't mind reused level ideas. This is normally not the problem. Normally it's wholesale. There's the problem. Like great example of this that you referenced, whispy woods, he always has something new in every new game, there's never one where he doesn't use at least 1 new attack. And his appearance changes, and hell, he's a species of bosses at this point, it's like seeing the egg robo and it's millions of other models, like the egg pawn. Sure, it's the same enemy, but there's enough variety to warrent it's inclusion. But that's not what's being done with green hill zone. And when it is, it's for the worse, like forces making it only one pathway, and automating most of it.
I'm genuinely curious if any Sonic fan will actually go "Yo! They brought Green Hill back? Holy shit I remember that from the original" when they see it again in Frontiers
Green Hill Zone means nothing to me beacause I started with Sonic 2. Emerald Hill Zone is where it's at, bruh! #fiteme For real tho, the green scenery contrasts beautifully with Sonic's blue color, which is an aspect of what makes it great I don't think people talk about enough
i personally don’t mind it if it’s utilized well. Sonic Adventure 2? great bonus! Sonic Generations? makes sense Sonic Mania? pushing it, but whatever Sonic Forces? i’d be able to excuse it if it was just a level or two. and also. like. done well. Sonic Frontiers? okay they’re definitely pushing it but if the cyberspace levels are _really_ his memories, whatever. but hey. they’re all fun levels (except in Forces) so, not the biggest deal to me
Green Hill Zone is overused. I miss when the first stage was a VARIATION of Green Hill instead of a copy. Emerald Hill, Angel Island, and Neo Green Hill are perfect examples of this idea. They're similar, but distinct in their design.
I had a lot of fun working on green hill zone - I definitely struggled with maintaining depth though, as it's one of few stages in the game with a variable parallax layering. Great video btw, you have to have one of the most subtle irish accents i've ever heard - almost American sounding!
Great video and good points, but the audio mixing of this video has a lot to be desired. Overall it is very quiet so that i had to bump up my volume a lot. But then 7:10 was obnoxiously loud which didn't make this a pleasent experience unfortunately. Edit: and what's up with all those random jumpscares? If they hurt my ears, they are not funny.
It's strange to me that people defend Green Hill's overuse with "B-but Kirby reuses Whispy Woods!" This is a false comparison not only because they're comparing a single character, who has many variations, to an entire level location that's barely changed; it's also because Sonic and Kirby have different goals. Kirby was made to be accessible, cozy, and beginner-friendly, so having some familiar ideas makes sense. On the flipside, Sonic was made to always be on the move, looking for a new adventure, and never settling for the status quo. Having him retread the same ground for the past 10 years directly contradicts that.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WINDY HILL AND GREEN HILL ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT...Windy Hill has Oak Trees, Green Hill has Palm Trees. Ffs you Sonic fans are all the same, completely unpleasable. I for one am happy to play the same thing repeatedly for new price tags and with new titles. It's not a cop out in the slightest...I swear.
I get what you're saying, but I must say, after watching a playthrough of the level in frontiers, it sounds like it's a fresh new take on GHZ with a darker and more mysterious vibe. I feel like it's gonna set the tone for the whole game
I disagree. Every single Green Hill level featured so far is a literal copy-pasted-cut down version of other levels (Unleashed's opening stage, and both of Generations' Green Hill levels) so no, it's only a fresh take in the sense that everything is now floating in a vacuum, but there's nothing actually being done to make something creative out of it. The reliance on older content has never been more blatant than with these cyberspace levels, where they spent more time trying to make the stage "feel" different rather than *actually* be different.
We really need a stage like City Escape. It's basically a stage made for Sonic and establishes his personality without putting it into words! Screw off with Green Hill Zone, let's have more City Escape!
@@aTristicionAXA I was joking. But at the same time, I think it would be a good idea for Sonic Team to look at the Adventure games stages for future 3D games instead of the classics.
Only iteration of GHZ that feels unique enough to be its own thing is seaside hill because it’s essentially a more tropical version of it but it never deals like a rehash despite having a lot of the same designs like the mountains and checkered dirt/rocks
I think it's interesting how Mania used Green Hill to celebrate _All_ the starting green levels in its design and background details, really make it feel special y'know? Forces just goes "look, Green Hill!" While having nothing really special about the level either as modern or classic Sonic, but especially as modern Sonic since it becomes a half-shot desert level for no reason.
Nostalgia as a selling point only works if you use it in small controlled doses. Spam nostalgia over and over it not only loses its charm it becomes a tiresome crutch devoid of any originality.
"Whispy is meant to be a tradition, Green Hill Zone never was" THANK YOU, I'm stealing this whenever someone tries to justify the GHZ rehashing with Whispy Woods
What ARE you saying? You've got the derpiest English speaking voice I've ever heard. I lost it at 7:48 "But Seaside Hill Zone was fcking everywhuuyre, like a decyeahd" < WHAT??
Come to think of it, people complained about the reused Mario level tropes that were in NSMB and the spin-offs so Green Hill isn't unique in that regard. And that's not really a problem anymore because of stuff like Odyssey.
Tbf Mario didn’t really re use level tropes, they re used the same game 4 times 😅 I love the NSMB series but I know that’s because it’s basically like playing 1 big 400 level game rather than like 4 actual unique games
Best way to answer the question at the beginning is that they actually did something different with Wispy in a fair amount of his inclusions. GHZ is almost always the same, with very few notable changes outside of slightly different palette or slightly different world.
In Frontiers I don't think it's nostalgia pandering, they've not been doing that in marketing... It's just laziness they can just re-use assets of a pre-existing stage from a pre-existing game!!!!
I see it less as laziness and more as a way to try and get the game done and polished for once. They're trying something they've never done before with Sonic in Frontiers, so it makes sense to cut corners where possible. I imagine that after Frontiers, they'll have more time to work on newer assets, since they'll have a template for how an open world Sonic should be. Also, Green Hill is such a minor part of Frontiers as a whole, unlike Forces where it took up almost a fifth of the games levels.
I am not sure if this example really works (as I never tried the full game yet), but _Freedom Planet 2_ managed to perfectly recycle a stage, that being Dragon Valley. GalaxyTrail really went out of the way to avert the Green Hill Zone problem, most notably adding a continuity nod throughout the entire stage. While I won't get too into detail about that continuity nod because that's a spoiler for the first _Freedom Planet_ game, the stage still feels like it grew alongside our protagonists. The one _Sonic_ stage that I feel captures this effect closely was Rooftop Run in _Sonic Generations._ Notice the whole festival vibe throughout Rooftop Run/Spagonia? Now, it may not be confirmed by the developers and it's more of a fan theory, but it's implied that the whole world was celebrating the restoration of the continents at the end of _Sonic Unleashed_ and this stage takes place after that game. The thing I don't mind with reusing stages is change things up to reflect significant story events.
"Green Hill Zone, AGAIN? Come on guys- L-look I get it, first iconic level and everything, but for f*cks sake do I have to go through this zone EVERYTIME YOU GUYS WANNA MAKE MONEY?"
Personally, I not only get where Fans where are coming from, but I also get where SEGA's coming from. Edit: Forgot to tell ya that Green Hill's been appearing in spin off games throughout the 90s to later being used in crossover games as long as 2008 with SSBB. It was also used in Sonic 4, even though that was called Splash Hill, and I'm surprised you didn't made a joke at how unoriginal it is like with Windy Hill. So yeah, it's been used since 1991. Great video though, coming from someone who actually watched the whole video... though I got jumpscared when that FNAF scene popped up.
At least Seaside Hill had the association with the highly-unique-but-still-traditional-ish Sonic Heroes, Ocean Palace and the car part to keep it interesting, plus it was only ever reused in side games outside of Generations. All Green Hill's reuse is for is to be at the center of Sonic's "proper" identity for the people that want the series to be no-frills. Which they obviously don't have to do anymore because of Origins.
I like how most of your videos start out pretty lightheaded and take a heavy emotional turn out of nowhere without feeling unnatural, just like the good sonic games we're trying to bring back
I feel the only way for this issue to end is for SegaSammy Japan to actually change management and perspective for the better. You see it for the past 20 years that the fans and especially Paramount helped risen Sonic again, but not enough to change the corporate greed Sega still has. I doubt it will ever change especially since they’ll latch onto anything to keep them afloat until they eventually crash. Green Hill still returning and rushed development is proof of a ‘Magic’ they’ll continue to abuse regardless of Sonic’s integrity. It’s legitimately sad to see. I WANT Sonic to improve because he deserves to be the best he can be, not because corporate ‘promises’ their investors the consumers will love it.
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The reason why the Seaside Zone took over was because they were rapidly discovering that it was easier to make levels in a floating void than to create natural boundaries. A beach-side level makes sense because it can preserve the bright, sun-shiney aesthetic of a first level while having a context as to why falling off a narrow platform means instant death.
I remember hearing from the ftcr that another reason is that they need to license the green hill zone music every time they use it while they own seaside hill theme
What do you think of the oversaturation of Green Hill 🤔
It’s a great representation of Sega’s insecurities with the series, having to repeat stuff because they’re not confident in the new ideas
Indifferent
I find it kinda disappointing when there are so many other classic zones Sega could use but they use green hill
Give it a rest, its getting tiring.
You said what is green hill, but never asked HOW is green hill...
It's genuinely insane how Green Hill has gone from a pleasant surprise to the most hated sonic stage.
@Sonic. mid and I wouldn't call it the most hated either
Most hated id say is a bit of a stretch but more so...people are just getting sick of it
@@Deltanium2080 yee though I don't mind green hill coming back on and on
@@Deltanium2080 Not really? What stage has come back as much as Green Hill and has been complained about in every iteration. Frontiers isn't even out yet, and the fact green hill is there in any way is concerning to many.
@@AizakkuAnalysis It gets to a point where the new fans would welcome it as a ‘New’ thing more than the old fans hating it. It’s like the New Super Mario Bros. Issue in a way where fatigue is felt, but it’s still a solid game for its own merits. Sonic no longer has that luxury. And it’s not like IIzuka can say no. It’s either do what he’s told from corporate or he can walk out. From what we’ve seen from devs walking out from Sega over the years, I feel their reasons are justified.
Ah Green Hill Zone, the place that taught me how to spin, roll and run around with its amazing music and level design, now reduced to a cheap nostalgia bait as an inclusion, to pander to nostalgia.
And the nostalgia effect is getting weaker and weaker
Like bruh you cant be nostalgic if it's always present. Aquatic ruins zone feels more nostalgic to me than green hill
You couldnt spin dash in the OG sonic 1
@@pyroflare7774 you could spin
@@stza16 no you could not spin DASH
@@stza16 and no, the ports of Sonic 1 DO NOT count
There's three certainties in life. Death, taxes, and Green Hill Zone.
I remember when stages like Sunset Hill came out, they felt like cute little callbacks to the classic Green Hill Zone while also having their own unique look to them. Nowadays, almost every new game is just them using the exact same Green Hill will minor changes like replacing the water with sand or this one has a glitchy effect in the background.
I KNOW!!! Forces should have made the stages look like sonic CD bad future but all they did was reuse generation assets with “twists”
@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778 the worst part is that that’s exactly what the concept art was and it was amazing
@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778 Didn't expect to see you here 🗿🗿
@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778 "Twists" being sand... and that's it
@@unknownwill4th549 yooo will nice to see you
It's the funniest thing in the world to me that by the time we've reached Frontiers Green Hill's iconography has been so far removed from the initial context that made it significant that now it just exists in a literal vacuum.
Right into Sega’s greedy corporate pockets.
What I hated about Forces' GHZ is what's stopping Sonic from running along the sand dunes? I want to explore those instead of walking in a straight line! At least in Sonic 1, SA2 and partly in Generations, the water in the zone is stopping Sonic from leaving the normal area you travel on. You can also tell that the part of the island GHZ is at has high cliffs all over the place, forcing Sonic into one direction. What Forces did was make the background scenery look so good, I want to explore that instead!
@@YujiUedaFan wait frontiers ghz had sand dunes?
@@retromixel I think Yuuji meant Forces.
@@retromixel Yes it did. That's why Sonic called it "SAND HILL!" The giant snake that's just there for spectacle came from the sand dunes.
Seaside Hill was a *lot* more tolerable due to how much its aesthetic was varied. You had the beach area, the turtle platforms, the temple, the ocean ruins. People didn't notice because so much happens in that level that none of it ever feels repetitive.
Green Hill is always just Green Hill.
To be able to use GHZ to the same degree as SHZ would require cramming in the 2 other related Sonic 1 zones of Marble and Labrynth (marble has the green and purple rocks, labrunth was designed to come right after GHZ and is watery)
Green hill does sometimes have cavern areas but they are usually very short, if they are even included at all
Tbh, the spinoffs and racing games have made Seaside Hill just as overexposed as Green Hill and Chemical Plant imo. It's lost a lot of its magic
@@englishgiraffe2124yeah Spinoffs, while Green hill is prominent in mainline games where it matters more :l
People love to talk about Green Hill, but I'm still waiting for Sonic to go through Silent Hill.
lmao
"Silent Hill's lookin' alot more like Fog Hill right now"
_ahh......very clever_
I've seen a pic of pyramid head r@(p)ing sonic and he's crying, I don't think he enjoyed his time in silent hill very much
@@BBWahoo W H A T
T H E
F U C K?
Context? And can you elaborate?
I loved watching this, but I had to stop at 8:15 because I just can't bear the risk of being hit by a second jump scare.
The way he lowered the volume during the segment to make you raise it too 😩
There isn't another, I kept watching while looking away from the screen lol
@@Starpotion That wasn't even on purpose 😂
I literally jumped out of my chair damn it--
same, had to stop, this thing got infantile pretty fast
Y'know what's funny? I vividly remember being really excited back in 2012 after Generations came out. I remember thinking "Aw man, Generations was so good! I can't wait to see what they come up with next! Maybe for the 40th, we'll have a Generations 2 with a bunch of levels that came out in the 20 years since the First."
It's been 10 years, and the only stage we've gotten that I'd argue wasn't a rehash was fucking Dessert Ruins from Lost World, and that was a floating pink void with pancakes in the background. It's been 10 years and we haven't had a proper original stage idea since Colours.
Mania has titanic monarch, mirage saloon, studiopoils and press garden
Forces had Sunset Heights, that Casino Jungle level, and the Boom games has original levels.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios the fact that Forces had only like 4 unique locations and the rest was nostalgia bait speaks volumes for the state of this franchise.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios I think casino jungle falls into rehash territory, although to a lesser extent.
There were Mania's four original zones.
It's a kinda cool reminder that despite everything, Whispy adapts to the main game gimmick. My favorite cases being the Robot version of Whispy in planet robobot, the twin woods in Kirby Super star being a fun way to destroy him with your ally and when the adventure is outside the regular pop star they throw variations like Tropical woods and King Golem. I feel like Green Hill shouldn't be only the mandatory first level but also a cool way to represent what makes the game unique with a familiar face, but as far as I know, green hill will be probably only in the cyberspace, I doubt they can do something cool instead of repeating generations level with less assets
Darn even Dk tropical freeze made something cooler (no pun intended) making the last world being a repeat the last game worlds but with a glacier aesthetic working as a great way to show the damage caused by the main villain
I also like how some of these variations are tied to the plot of the game (King Golem being a mirror dimension version of Whispy in Amazing Mirror, Flowery Woods being turned from a regular blooming flower to a version of Whispy thanks to Taranza in Triple Deluxe, Clanky Woods being basically robotized Whispy in Planet Robobot, while technically not Whispy, Yggy Woods serves a similar purpose but as a harder version in Star Allies and Tropical Woods in Forgotten Lands).
In Crystal Shards he just misplaces himself along the Z axis, so that Kirby csn't touch him directly.
@@CrashCubeZeroOne yeah that was a cool showcase of how this game played a ton with that type of movement I recall a lot of times in that game where they do this type of gimmicl
I never realized about that from Whispy Woods! It makes all of his appearances way more cooler!
@@CrashCubeZeroOne He's becoming a fucking sun in solar system.
I do like you're comparison to Whispy here. Whereas Green Hill as a stage slowly faded away with it's spirit inspiring other stages before they just kept bringing it back, Whispy was brought back as early as the second game. I feel like that should tell you he's supposed to be a reoccurring character. It's not even like they've done nothing with him. Modern Kirby has done a lot of interesting things with him as a first boss with stuff like Flowery, Clanky and as of recently Tropic Woods. I know I've slowly strayed further from the topic of the video, but I just kinda wanted to talk about my favourite tree since he was brought up.
What also doesn't help is SEGA are so obsessed with saying "HEY LOOK! THIS! YOU REMEMBER THIS! NOSTALGIA!!!" While Kirby games are way more chill and it doesn't come across as super obnoxious.
Yes Sonic Fans trying to compare themselves to Kirby or Mario is pathetic tbh lol
@@maude7420 No, what I find is pathetic is Sonic GAMES trying to compare themselves to Mario or Kirby.
@@YujiUedaFan What makes Kirby consistent is Shinya Kumazaki, he been with the Kirby series since the Nightmare in Dream Land. He took over when making Kirby games, after Masahiro Sakurai stoped. The problem Sonic is that Yuji Naka left Sega after 06, to make matters worse Sega even lost the team that made Sonic Unleashed.
So without Yuji Naka, Naoto Ohshima, or Yoshihisa Hashimoto, Sonic Team has a really hard time figuring out how to evolve Sonic.
@@orangeslash1667 Iizuka also has a weird take on things. He's trying to chase trends, without realising that it doesn't matter how fast you run, if you're just going to slam into a wall and make a fool of yourself anyway.
It’s kinda funny how Sonic fans hate having to play the same stage 6 times in a row, yet Kirby fans are fine fighting the same boss for 30 years
He literally explains the difference in this video. Wispy Woods is a tradition. It's expected. Sonic USED to be known for trying to have original levels in nearly every game. Or levels INSPIRED by Green Hill zone rather than literally reusing it over and over
It also helps that Whispy and other returning bosses get spiced up with meaningful changes or lore while Green Hill has literally just been an aesthetic whether you boost through it or not.
It is so bad that Windy Hill barely has an identity even with a new song and mechanics. The Smash version is saved by a unique layout and curving stage but is still more similar than it needs to be.
Generations and SA2 did some stuff to make GHZ stick out more besides Mania being creative in general, but that's three games which are a decade apart each.
Sonic fights Eggman in almost every Sonic game. What's your point?
A recurring boss and reusing Green Hill in every game are not even close to the same thing.
Wispy Woods is different in every game. Are you capable of having original thoughts? Because I've seen this same non-argument comment repeated 14 times and I'm tired of responding to it.
@@thelastgogeta Agreed! A good example of how unique Whispy Woods fights can be is in Dream Land 3, where he starts to chase you when he's got half of his health left. The one with his Planet Robobot counterpart starts the same, but after the chase, you fight him back in a 2.5 enviroment. In Kirby 64, you have to attack his children first, then you throw his apples at his roots to defeat him! Even giving him a different look or having to fight him alongside a copy goes a long way from making his fights distinct from eachother. If Kirby games were like Sonic's, all of them would just be: Tree throws apples. Eat and throw them back at it 'till it dies.
It’s crazy. Green Hill Zone has gone from being a well known, iconic location in the Sonic series to being nostalgia bait, to now being “status quo corporate” zone nowadays.
For future reference, it's "Status Quo", not "Quote"
@@JossCard42 sorry, auto correct was to blame.
I disagree, I’m perfectly okay with it being the biggest iconography of the series
Do you mind my opinion here?
"WOAH ITS GREEN HILL ZONE!"
"WOAH Its green hill zone!"
"Woah its green hill zone"
"Oh no its green hill zone"
My thing about Seaside Hill is that it was mostly used in spin offs or side projects, Green Hill Zone is quite literally in every mainline game.
Yeah he tries to use Seaside Hill as an argument, and then he lists a bunch of games I never fucking played (except for the racing games those rule) lmao.
An interesting thing about people criticizing Whispy is that you never see people in the Kirby community really do so, he's only criticized as a response to Sonic reusing Green Hill.
The reason is that everyone loves Whispy because Whispy almost always changes, literally the only time you could make an argument that Whispy was the same outside of remakes (Spring Breeze in Super Star/Ultra and Nightmare in Dream Land) would be in the second ever Kirby game Adventure.
The boss fight in Adventure is basically identical to the one in Dream Land 1 with very minimal changes, the only other Whispy battles you could argue are too similar are maybe some of the ones in spin off games like for example Whispy in the Kirby Clash games is mostly a rehash of Flowery Woods from Triple Deluxe.
But I don't really mind there because the boss still feels very different and Kirby Clash reuses plenty of bosses anyway, so why criticize Whispy there specifically when Whispy changes more than other bosses like Pyribbit?
I think a better argument to compare Green Hill Zone to would be Green Greens in Kirby.
It's the face of the series and it's theme is present in almost all the games, but the actual level isn't really reused for the most part.
In Adventure and it's remake Nightmare in Dream Land, it's reused in the final level of the game...but that is the most praised level in the entire game.
It's a level that uses GameBoy sprites all over, taking you through a trunkated version of the first game. It was a great way to establish that Kirby would always be about remembering it's history while also always doing something completely new with it.
Aside from the remake of Dream Land 1 in the two Super Star games, you'll be hardpressed to find a level similar to Dream Land 1 until Star Allies in 2018.
That level being the final extra level of the game and using the GameBoy aesthetic once again, it even has a unique ending. Plus Star Allies is all about Kirby's history, so not including Green Greens would make no sense.
If we look at every first level in Kirby games, even counting spin offs than we can see that they all have their own identities.
Well said! Even then, Adventure was originally supposed to be an NES port of Dream Land, so it makes sense that his, Kracko's (mostly the pattern), and Poppy Bros. Sr.'s fights would be really similar.
Crazy to think that SA2 actively kept Green Hill Zone as a reward after getting all of the emblems considering how much it's used as the first stage nowadays.
My favorite part of Green Hill Zone was when Green Hill Zone said "It's Green Hill Zoning time!" and Green Hill Zoned at Green Hill Zone.
Truly the gamest moment of games
This is why I love City Escape. They have not gone back to that well very often so the stage still feels fresh.
Ok I’ll admit I was expecting a worn out video on nostalgia pandering but it became a defense of Green Hill and a sign of forgiveness to Izuka, also Sega probably wants to stop paying Nakamura royalties by now
hey oomfie!!!!
@@octoisgay hi octo
Cool
Are you sure, he still painted the heads of the company as bad people when clearly we are all not perfect.
He really could have countered it by seeing it through the eyes of casuals, newbies or just passerbys.
My problem with Green Hill returning in every fucking game since Generations, is that Sonic was never known to be fond of Green Hill all that much, and hell he's not even from Green Hill. It was the first stage of his first game, but it takes place in South Island, who Sonic was visiting because he heard the Chaos Emeralds were there and saw Eggman going there to find them.
So it's not like Sonic is coming back to visit his childhood home or anything, because again he wasn't from South Island but Christmas Island. Ever since Sonic 2 and specially Adventure, Sonic kept moving forward and exploring new ideas. Like you said Emerald Hill and others took what worked in Green Hill and went further beyond with it, and kept moving the franchise forward no matter what.
But ever since Generations, Green Hill is just....back, and for no real reason. Windy Hill being an exact copy of Green Hill in the fucking sky makes no sense and brings nothing to the narrative of Lost World nor its setting the Lost Hex. Green Hill being the size of a continent in Forces makes even less sense and shouldn't even be in the game in the first place, but it has to be because "it is Sonic's first stage" even though from 1992 to 2010 it was never, EVER brought back other than a secret bonus level in Adventure 2 (Sunset Hill being a homage to it, but not a direct moment in Sonic's history where Green Hill was brought back.)
It is also very lazy of Sega and Sonic Team to give excuses to keep bringing it back, such as Frontiers' "Well Cyberspace is made of Sonic's memories so OF COURSE it would be all rehashed, old levels!". It's really annoying. Don't ever get me started on Chemical Plant and Sky Sanctuary either.
In SA2 it gave kinda sense. South Island is a Island that moves in the Ocean, which means it was close to city escape and i guess Sonic checks the place out in a short time
@@themissingbits6375 And even then, Green Hill played no role in SA2's story, it was a neat reward and callback for 100%ing the game, and because it was the 10th anniversary of the series.
Also how did South Island's green hill morph into a continent in Forces wtf, it even breaks the whole "South Island moves in the ocean" thing because now part of it is part of the main terrain of the Earth.
Well the Sonic Universe is a giant mess and hear is why. The Moon
Nerd.
We've seen Green Hill Zone countless times, Sonic doesn't live there. He lives on Christmas Island. Station City Square deserves more credit, Not Green Hill Zone.
Can't wait for the sequel "The Chemical Plant Zone Problem".
Next it will be Sky Sanctuary Zone problem
Sounds like we have a problem problem
Sonic 1: first zone
Sonic 2: second zone
Sonic 3 and knuckles: fifth zone
????????
What pisses me off the most, is that it doesn't even look like a hill in Frontiers. On Generations, and to some extent on Forces too, it looks like a place - a fantasy place, but it seems "real", you can see rock formations, lots of grass and trees, caves, waterfalls... In Frontiers, the stage's looking like those orange hot wheels tracks, but instead of orange it's bright green and dark green. Everything that "wow'd" you in Generations doesn't exist anymore. It's just a floating track that reminds us of Green Hill.
Tbh, forces green hill felt like that in some places but I'll give it a pass since it's supposed to be destroyed. I believe the cyberspace levels feel lifeless because of story reasons but I'd rather they just didn't exist at this point. Either that or make appropriate new landscapes instead of rehashing the same tired tropes.
imagine in halo, the beginning of each game starts off in the pillar of autumn
that would suck
Honestly I would mind a sonic generations style halo game. Hell they could even make levels from halo wars into levels
Imagine if 1-1 was in every Mario game
I think my favourite green hill type zone is palmtree panic because the music and the zone feels like such a good welcome to sonic CD with the yay sound effect in the Ben and the sick loop at the beginning of the first act and this feel Carries on to the past and good future (the bad future just sounds sick and futuristic) I also forgot to mention that there are so many paths you can take and explore!
Unfortunately, if Sega stopped including GHZ, some fans would be like 'where's green hill zone?' So they're kind of stuck in between the nostalgia that's now the norm
I doubt that. I can't imagine that people are excited to go through Green Hill Zone for the 40th time. It's just a filler episode before we get to the new stages.
Of course people will ask after they included it in every single game. But I assure you, as long as the game is good, no one will care if it is left out. You could remove it entirely from frontiers and no one would care.
There’s just no satisfying Sonic fans, and that’s truly scary.
its crazy that colors was the only mainline game in the 2010s where the game is entirely original stages
looking forward to frontiers i do like what iv'e seen so far hope its good
I'd say lost world is almost entirely new, just too plain with mario like levels
Sonic Unleashed ?
@@mecxu761unleashed came out in the late 2000's not 2010's
Headphone warning around 7:25. Cmon man, that was unnecessary.
I really think Green Hill In Adventure 2 was the best call back, because it wasn’t a mandatory stage and just a (hard as dicks to unlock,) bonus stage, and it stays true to the source material, down to even having the same layout as the original, and as mark- i mean mark’s friend, said, a bonus for Sonic’s 10th anniversary.
Also I so badly wish we got a better second Sonic stage than Windy Hill in the Smash Bros franchise, there’s so many cool set pieces in the Sonic series to choose from and we get a worse green hill
could have had a stage like speed highway or city escape. city themed levels seem to be the most iconic sonic stages aside from green hill
I cannot hate this stage, it became the Sonic equivalent of what Mushroom Kingdom is to Mario or what N.Sanity Beach is to Crash Bandicoot
Personally, it’s never made sense to me for sonic to be back in green hill zone because unlike Mario and Kirby who live in the locale of their first levels, sonic doesn’t live on South Island. He has no reason to return there. He has a plane in he first game so he probably just flew there to stop Robotnik.
If Sonic Frontiers is good, Mark has to play the game but every time he jumps he says “I’m sorry Iizuka!”
Hi! Editor here!
I never wanna see Green Hill Zone in my life
Thank you to Ma- I MEAN SplashDash! For offering this amazing opportunity. And you might see more of me on this channel soon! :D
Your the editor?
Wow I'm a big fan
Noice
Mr editor if you could please answer this one question: Are you the editor for his other channel as well or just this one?
@@shaghilathar3588 Just this one!
@@NitPickerYT Thanks for the answer!
I'm ready for Slash Dash's Iizuka apology video
Some of the games that didn't start with or have GHZ:
- Colors
- Adventure 1
- Sonic 3 and knuckles
- 06
- black knight
- secret rings
- riders and zero gravity
that aside, love generation's version of GHZ the most among the 3d games
Green Hill Zone is something I wouldn't mind seeing in merchandise and pop culture, because those are really places where it should belong curently. Seeing it being spewn in multiple mainline games in a row as obvious first level gets so repetive it eventually becomes comical. The franchise should be able to move forward with original level themes while at least attempt being consistant with current modern Sonic aesthetic. That didn't stopped games like Unleashed or Colors for having different level ideas so why not continue that?
1:05 ah yes my favorite location, Whispy Woods.
I think we should stop using Green Hill Zone, and instead embrace our Sand Hill Zone overlords
If they’re going to keep bringing back old zones, they should bring back some of the less used ones, like Spring Yard or Hydrocity
At least hydrocity was in mania
@@Marc-rw3dd I think they should do a Mania 2 with all new zones, BUT bring back Scrap Brain as the final level. Kinda like an inversion of the first Mania.
Spring Yard was my favourite zone in the original game, and I used to want to see it make a return.
Under sega now, I no longer want it.
In Mario Odyssey they actually do remake 1-1 in a theater in New Donk City but it’s just a small tribute to Mario’s legacy along side the many other references to games like Mario 64 and it’s also just small side mission to get 2 moons in a game with a bunch of new stuff while green hill zone, like you said it’s just aesthetics and doesn’t pay and respects to what made the level so good with Generations and Mania being sorta the exceptions to this but still.
Too videos in one day absolutely insane. Twice the videos double the pay check.
A third video today?
I feel like the best comparison to the green hill debacle would be the koopalings from mario. A sudden return that fans loved at first but got tired as the next 2 2d mario games and all the spinoffs became inundated with having the koopalings with the worst offender being mario kart 8's inclusion of them but lack of fan favorites like bowser jr and diddy kong.
Yeah and both of these things are stupid and not worth getting worked up over.
@@cameronstone4495 I’d argue the Mario one is worse and definitely worth talking about, imagine playing 3 different games with the same 14 boss fights per game with the only different boss being whatever happens in world 8.
uh oh! you have an an inflection that draws out the final word of every sentence that once you hear you can never unhear!
Just like most of these UA-camrs that think their opinions merit starting a channel and imitating every other channel
@@FullForce098 Well I wanted to offer criticism, not tear him down.
I really do hope frontiers is good. It’s the first game in years where the team actually feel confidence for a sonic game.
Open world looks empty and lame and Cyberspace is directed by the same dude who made Forces
Don't expect anything amazing appart from the story
@@maude7420 I heard the land looks empty but is actually filled with lots of content and enemies.
@@maude7420 I’m surprised there’s still people like you after the demo.
@@gamercentral2417 nah bruh the open worlds looks messy and contrasting as ever and they look really bland, the need to polish it up or delay unless they are done but not showing it yet, which isn’t the case because of the demo, they are showcasing all the cinematic s and cutscenes for a reason, to hype up moments that are just cutscenes and making gameplay shots very fast so you don’t notice how bad the map design is. This game is not worth $60
@@StopDropDash that’s literally the tutorial world. Also people who played the game liked it. You didn’t play the game
So uh… what was the point he was trying to make? Because it sounded like he just said “It’s okay with Mario and Kirby because those stuff were meant to be traditional, while Grenn Hill was not”…. like, how do you know that?
I honestly would have been fine with green hill zone if they didn’t just blatantly throw in the same level theme over and over again to cut costs, and instead reused it in clever ways.
Like look at Kirby. Wispy woods is a staple, but it isn’t always the same thing. One game, you’re fighting a flowery version of him, shooting flower blades and Gordos from the background, and the next, he’s literally a killer robot chasing you through levels. Same goes for meta knight, king dedede, and kracko. All these fights gets remixed in ways that not only works for the story, but also is just really fun and creative on it’s own. Green hill zone doesn’t have that.
What if in forces greenhill zone was being bombed, with forest fires and explosions all over the background? Or in sonic 4 green hill zone could be partially mechanized, showing eggman’s impact on the environment, honoring the original “nature vs industrialism” theme. Forces green hill had a small amount of elements that helped drive its dried up theme forward, like the faded flowers rotating pathetically compared to the healthy ones, but it wasn’t enough, and the gameplay wasn’t any better. Frontiers is kinda getting there, but at this point it’s far too late. We just want something new.
Feel like Green hill's reuse is also represented in Smash Ultimate. The only Sonic stages there are Green hill and Green hill with windmills.
I think Green Hill as the concept of the first stage is what we should differentiate when it comes down to talking about Green Hill itself. A lot of poeple tend to forget other Green Hill like stages like Sonic Advance 2's Leaf Forest, Sonic Rush's first stage, Emerald Coast in SA1, and Seaside Hill from Heroes. Those are great Green Hill like stages and they work well for that intention. I kust wish SEGA understood that more often instead of just giving us Green Hill for the third (fourth if you count Mania) time in the Modern Era
leaf forest and emerald coast look completely different from green hill, having a grassland aesthetic doesn't immediately make it a "green hill stage", emerald coast also had a more beach aesthetic.
That's why I said "Green-hill LIKE" in my comment. @@Blanktester685
I don't get how Mario can have adventures in the mushroom kingdom with the same level dynamics (e.g grassland, desert, ice place), but the minute green hill zone comes along everybody goes crazy.
Yeah
Because Mario levels (in 2D at least) were ALWAYS tropey. Grass world. Desert World. Water World. Etc. Sonic levels had way more personality than that (like having names), and nowadays, Green Hill has become just as bland and tropey as Mario Grass levels. There was a clear degradation of Green Hill. Mario's Grass World just stayed roughly the same. No real drop in quality. The most that's been done with Green Hill in terms of not being bland is flooding it with sand... but that level was like a minute long and really didn't do anything with the sand half of the level.
@@espurrseyes42 It’s not always a problem for everyone. Everyone is allowed to like it.
I honestly do not mind Green Hill so much. It makes a good tutorial stage with it's simplicity. The only time I do not like where it makes no sense at all. Forces was acceptable, it made sense with Generations, and here in Frontiers it makes sense. I certainly would like it more if they changed stuff up with the appearance, like they tried to do with Forces and how it appeared in that.
Mania and Generations were the only games after Colors that did this stage right
@sonic 1995 Forces: Globe trotting adventure and tries to add a new element to it.
Frontiers: Cyberspace are based on Sonic's memories, so works in the same vain as Generations. As well as that, stages have that alternate, cyber look to it.
@sonic 1995 If you say so.
@sonic 1995 If you say so.
@sonic 1995 Naw, stupid arguments do not deserve a good response. I do not see how I am damage controlling when I could not care one way or the other if Green Hill is used or not.
I don't mind reused level ideas. This is normally not the problem. Normally it's wholesale. There's the problem. Like great example of this that you referenced, whispy woods, he always has something new in every new game, there's never one where he doesn't use at least 1 new attack. And his appearance changes, and hell, he's a species of bosses at this point, it's like seeing the egg robo and it's millions of other models, like the egg pawn. Sure, it's the same enemy, but there's enough variety to warrent it's inclusion. But that's not what's being done with green hill zone. And when it is, it's for the worse, like forces making it only one pathway, and automating most of it.
I'm genuinely curious if any Sonic fan will actually go "Yo! They brought Green Hill back? Holy shit I remember that from the original" when they see it again in Frontiers
Yo! They brought Green Hill back! 😃😃 I love Green Hill when I see Green Hill.
Exactly! How can anyone feel nostalgic over something that won't go away?
I love that the talking head sections of these videos are just the square png logo moving around the screen
Green Hill Zone means nothing to me beacause I started with Sonic 2. Emerald Hill Zone is where it's at, bruh! #fiteme
For real tho, the green scenery contrasts beautifully with Sonic's blue color, which is an aspect of what makes it great I don't think people talk about enough
Sonic holding a Green Emerald: 👍
Sonic holding a Blue Emerald: 👎
13:52 saving this line for later coming back in 1 month
i personally don’t mind it if it’s utilized well.
Sonic Adventure 2? great bonus!
Sonic Generations? makes sense
Sonic Mania? pushing it, but whatever
Sonic Forces? i’d be able to excuse it if it was just a level or two. and also. like. done well.
Sonic Frontiers? okay they’re definitely pushing it but if the cyberspace levels are _really_ his memories, whatever.
but hey. they’re all fun levels (except in Forces) so, not the biggest deal to me
Good point
golly gee another retro sonic video who woulda thunk that a mid yet iconic franchise would become a bigger content farm than major league sports
Green Hill Zone is overused. I miss when the first stage was a VARIATION of Green Hill instead of a copy. Emerald Hill, Angel Island, and Neo Green Hill are perfect examples of this idea. They're similar, but distinct in their design.
next up splash dash is going to analyze each games' different different homing attack reticles
I had a lot of fun working on green hill zone - I definitely struggled with maintaining depth though, as it's one of few stages in the game with a variable parallax layering. Great video btw, you have to have one of the most subtle irish accents i've ever heard - almost American sounding!
Honestly "Never Ending Relic" sounds like a great Zone name.
merge "never ending" to something like endless and its perfect
Great video and good points, but the audio mixing of this video has a lot to be desired. Overall it is very quiet so that i had to bump up my volume a lot. But then 7:10 was obnoxiously loud which didn't make this a pleasent experience unfortunately.
Edit: and what's up with all those random jumpscares? If they hurt my ears, they are not funny.
also the right audio sounds more louder than the left audio
0:13 sorry to be a nerd but that was windy hill not green hill
It's strange to me that people defend Green Hill's overuse with "B-but Kirby reuses Whispy Woods!" This is a false comparison not only because they're comparing a single character, who has many variations, to an entire level location that's barely changed; it's also because Sonic and Kirby have different goals. Kirby was made to be accessible, cozy, and beginner-friendly, so having some familiar ideas makes sense. On the flipside, Sonic was made to always be on the move, looking for a new adventure, and never settling for the status quo. Having him retread the same ground for the past 10 years directly contradicts that.
>"Whispy Woods"
The stage's name is GREEN GREENS.
He's literally talking about the character/boss. Not the stage.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WINDY HILL AND GREEN HILL ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT...Windy Hill has Oak Trees, Green Hill has Palm Trees. Ffs you Sonic fans are all the same, completely unpleasable. I for one am happy to play the same thing repeatedly for new price tags and with new titles. It's not a cop out in the slightest...I swear.
They made a Sonic Themed event in Fall Guys like a month ago
And guess where the event's exclusive stage takes place...
I get what you're saying, but I must say, after watching a playthrough of the level in frontiers, it sounds like it's a fresh new take on GHZ with a darker and more mysterious vibe. I feel like it's gonna set the tone for the whole game
I disagree. Every single Green Hill level featured so far is a literal copy-pasted-cut down version of other levels (Unleashed's opening stage, and both of Generations' Green Hill levels) so no, it's only a fresh take in the sense that everything is now floating in a vacuum, but there's nothing actually being done to make something creative out of it. The reliance on older content has never been more blatant than with these cyberspace levels, where they spent more time trying to make the stage "feel" different rather than *actually* be different.
One of these days I'd like to see Emerald Hill in 3D.
We really need a stage like City Escape. It's basically a stage made for Sonic and establishes his personality without putting it into words! Screw off with Green Hill Zone, let's have more City Escape!
So Sonic Team should pander to adventure fans nostalgia instead of classic sonic nostalgia 😐
No we need more original stages that have they're own style, and not just copying a past level.
@@aTristicionAXA I was joking. But at the same time, I think it would be a good idea for Sonic Team to look at the Adventure games stages for future 3D games instead of the classics.
@@piranhalettuce this
@@eslm-studios2996 I agree but there are only a handful worth bringing back for a boost style level
The editor leaving in the directions for the jokes is jarring and ruins the pacing.
:(
Only iteration of GHZ that feels unique enough to be its own thing is seaside hill because it’s essentially a more tropical version of it but it never deals like a rehash despite having a lot of the same designs like the mountains and checkered dirt/rocks
I think it's interesting how Mania used Green Hill to celebrate _All_ the starting green levels in its design and background details, really make it feel special y'know? Forces just goes "look, Green Hill!" While having nothing really special about the level either as modern or classic Sonic, but especially as modern Sonic since it becomes a half-shot desert level for no reason.
Nostalgia as a selling point only works if you use it in small controlled doses. Spam nostalgia over and over it not only loses its charm it becomes a tiresome crutch devoid of any originality.
If Green Hill was an Extra level like SA2, it wouldn't get as much hate as it does now.
Italian man cries over blue rat running on green loop de loops.
Bruh people don’t complain about the mushroom kingdom when we start there in a Mario game.
@PhantomLee It DOES have an established universe, they just change it up to fit with the different projects.
Fun Fact: Nintendo has been reusing the main theme of SMB1 in every single mainline Mario game.
BAH BAH
BAH BAH
BAH BAH
it doesnt bother me. im speeding through the stage too fast to care
"Whispy is meant to be a tradition, Green Hill Zone never was"
THANK YOU, I'm stealing this whenever someone tries to justify the GHZ rehashing with Whispy Woods
What ARE you saying? You've got the derpiest English speaking voice I've ever heard. I lost it at 7:48 "But Seaside Hill Zone was fcking everywhuuyre, like a decyeahd" < WHAT??
Come to think of it, people complained about the reused Mario level tropes that were in NSMB and the spin-offs so Green Hill isn't unique in that regard. And that's not really a problem anymore because of stuff like Odyssey.
Tbf Mario didn’t really re use level tropes, they re used the same game 4 times 😅 I love the NSMB series but I know that’s because it’s basically like playing 1 big 400 level game rather than like 4 actual unique games
I really like the trope of starting a game in a place with lots of hills and vegetation. it doesn't need to be every game, but I don't begrudge it.
Best way to answer the question at the beginning is that they actually did something different with Wispy in a fair amount of his inclusions. GHZ is almost always the same, with very few notable changes outside of slightly different palette or slightly different world.
That angry's bird joke aged like milk
In Frontiers I don't think it's nostalgia pandering, they've not been doing that in marketing...
It's just laziness they can just re-use assets of a pre-existing stage from a pre-existing game!!!!
I see it less as laziness and more as a way to try and get the game done and polished for once. They're trying something they've never done before with Sonic in Frontiers, so it makes sense to cut corners where possible. I imagine that after Frontiers, they'll have more time to work on newer assets, since they'll have a template for how an open world Sonic should be.
Also, Green Hill is such a minor part of Frontiers as a whole, unlike Forces where it took up almost a fifth of the games levels.
I can't believe this man just dissed Sunset Hill Zone's amazing theme.
I am not sure if this example really works (as I never tried the full game yet), but _Freedom Planet 2_ managed to perfectly recycle a stage, that being Dragon Valley. GalaxyTrail really went out of the way to avert the Green Hill Zone problem, most notably adding a continuity nod throughout the entire stage. While I won't get too into detail about that continuity nod because that's a spoiler for the first _Freedom Planet_ game, the stage still feels like it grew alongside our protagonists. The one _Sonic_ stage that I feel captures this effect closely was Rooftop Run in _Sonic Generations._ Notice the whole festival vibe throughout Rooftop Run/Spagonia? Now, it may not be confirmed by the developers and it's more of a fan theory, but it's implied that the whole world was celebrating the restoration of the continents at the end of _Sonic Unleashed_ and this stage takes place after that game. The thing I don't mind with reusing stages is change things up to reflect significant story events.
"Green Hill Zone, AGAIN? Come on guys- L-look I get it, first iconic level and everything, but for f*cks sake do I have to go through this zone EVERYTIME YOU GUYS WANNA MAKE MONEY?"
This video has given me major trust issues. Thanks.
Your welcome :)
Sarcasm
Personally, I not only get where Fans where are coming from, but I also get where SEGA's coming from.
Edit: Forgot to tell ya that Green Hill's been appearing in spin off games throughout the 90s to later being used in crossover games as long as 2008 with SSBB. It was also used in Sonic 4, even though that was called Splash Hill, and I'm surprised you didn't made a joke at how unoriginal it is like with Windy Hill. So yeah, it's been used since 1991. Great video though, coming from someone who actually watched the whole video... though I got jumpscared when that FNAF scene popped up.
Sorry to spook ya :D
@@NitPickerYT No worries.
At least Seaside Hill had the association with the highly-unique-but-still-traditional-ish Sonic Heroes, Ocean Palace and the car part to keep it interesting, plus it was only ever reused in side games outside of Generations. All Green Hill's reuse is for is to be at the center of Sonic's "proper" identity for the people that want the series to be no-frills. Which they obviously don't have to do anymore because of Origins.
The problem is that they used it to many times in a row.
I like how most of your videos start out pretty lightheaded and take a heavy emotional turn out of nowhere without feeling unnatural, just like the good sonic games we're trying to bring back
I feel the only way for this issue to end is for SegaSammy Japan to actually change management and perspective for the better. You see it for the past 20 years that the fans and especially Paramount helped risen Sonic again, but not enough to change the corporate greed Sega still has. I doubt it will ever change especially since they’ll latch onto anything to keep them afloat until they eventually crash.
Green Hill still returning and rushed development is proof of a ‘Magic’ they’ll continue to abuse regardless of Sonic’s integrity. It’s legitimately sad to see. I WANT Sonic to improve because he deserves to be the best he can be, not because corporate ‘promises’ their investors the consumers will love it.
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The reason why the Seaside Zone took over was because they were rapidly discovering that it was easier to make levels in a floating void than to create natural boundaries. A beach-side level makes sense because it can preserve the bright, sun-shiney aesthetic of a first level while having a context as to why falling off a narrow platform means instant death.
I remember hearing from the ftcr that another reason is that they need to license the green hill zone music every time they use it while they own seaside hill theme
This man said he never seen dragon ball.... AND YALL LET HIM LIVE!!! C'mon son!
LS Mark and his friend uploading on the same day?
Nice.
Yeah, his friend