Something I think could be cool is if we could get a moxfield list or something of cards you guys talk about in the podcasts so people can follow along and use as a reference
Guys! Stifle can counter a lot more than Dockside Extortionist and ThOracle's ETB and when it does it's soooooo rewarding. Namely: The Pact of Negation trigger, Flusterstorm or Brain Freeze's storm, Final Fortune's delayed trigger, Ranger-Captain's silence effect, many more ETBs like Imperial Recruiter's, Spellseeker's, Dualcaster Mage's. Heck, I have even countered a Sensei's Divining Top activation (the draw a card effect). It also stops the Underworld Breach sacrifice trigger (not that it matters though). TL;DR: I just LOVE Stifle in cEDH.
I think their point still stands. Half of the things you listed there aren't usually worth countering (eg. you would never waste a card on a sensei's activation), and even if they were, the total number of use cases is too few.
So good to see Tyler in the conversation. The combo of your guys personality and senses of humor, made me watch a video I probably would have skipped just because I knew it would be so much fun!! Loving the extra content!!
I have a bunch of Rebuff the Wicked when I used to play Modern and now my friends are like "What the hell is that spell!?" lol love that response everytime
Budget cEDH maybe. Trickbind = dead draw way too often. Render Silent = time walk yourself to counter another player, catapulting the other two players at the table a full turn ahead. Nix = only good for counter wars and a few very niche situations - doesn't counter most enemy game winners. Bolt Bend = good if your commander is has 4+ power and is only 1-2 colours (ie. can be cast t1-2 off fast mana)
Perfect timing with the podcast dropping while im at work. Also i picked a perfect time to get into Cedh. This podcast and Dominaria Remastered have been very helpful. Now i just need a dual lands reprint that isnt from a $999 proxy box *cough wizards cough*
54:01 There's also the 2 mana counter for enchantments/artifacts, Illumination. Also some minor ones that counters something that target you or your creatures. Not to forget some creatures that can activate to counter spells.
I say it every week but this was another killer episode guys. Also, in response to Dylan's comment at 5:17 I 100% agree and was having a conversation just three days ago with my best friend about how there's a lot of color identity leak amongst 4 of the 5 colors, and while some of Blue's ID has been given to the other colors by and large they're the only color with real access to counter magic and that's pretty fucked.
This is why I run lifeforce and douse in my Cedh rograhk and thrasios list. It’s not just a one time use counterspell or something I have to recur to use again. It’s a repeatable engine that can’t be countered by most counterspells. That’s the biggest benefit in my opinion, the fact that if I use douse on your dockside the number of cards that answer my douse activation are incredibly low. And even if you have it, I can just pay 2 more mana after you burn it. It helps that black and red are pretty much the most played colors. Force of will does nothing against a boarded douse or lifeforce. Also you can use douse and lifeforce as many times as you want in a turn under a rule of law. Also just saying painters servant is legal.
Great chat at the end theorycrafting counterspells in other colours! To throw my 2 cents in.. For white(if it isn't a mana-leak type of effect), it would probably be something along the lines of Arcane Denial. Counter target spell, it's controller draws a card. For red, I can see it being sacrificing an artifact or creature as an additional cost to counter the spell, and with green I think it would be something along the lines of Boseju or Assasin's Trophy. Counter the spell, it's controller searches for a land and puts it into play(I think it would be like that mainly because if WoTC starts printing these kind of colour pie breaking cards without taking into consideration other formats, they might as well just cancel any and all non-EDH support)
Avoid fate was one I threw in my first magic deck lol since no one thought green had counters. It is very situational but i mean its just fun to see peoples faces after countering something in golgari.
As someone who's dipping their toes into cedh, (mainly not fully getting into it cause of money) I love every bit of yalls conversations here, and explaining the reasonings for your personal opinions on these cards. I would also like to say that as a higher level casual player, my favorite counter is by far render silent. (In my pods, nobody has ANY kind of response to that other than instant sadness because they were about to win)
Not a counterspell, but a fantastic piece in a counter war: what would you say about Vexing Shusher? (obviously in non-blue lists) Since you can use it to force an opponent's spell through the counter war if it's stopping something that you need stopped.
One counterspell that I am trying to make work is Drown in the Loch, 2 mana in 2 colors is a lot, and the graveyard requirements suck. But being able to destroy creatures or counter spells is very good.
My favorite White Counterspell is Deafening Silence, it’s only 1 mana and it counters all their other spells in hand off the stack before they can even play them. And that is why I play stax 😂
I know it's a 5 mana counter (and some people don't run those I guess?), but Wandering Archaic is pretty useful vs decks that run counter magic. "We really want to be on 1 and 0 mana counters" pretty much means 'I scoop to you casting any significant Hatebear, since nobody runs removal in cEDH' for some decks, you really need counters vs creatures in some match ups. I run some sub-par counters specifically because I need to hit Oppo and Dranith, though I do pack removal to deal with them. I would *TOTALLY* play U to Delay with only Suspend 1, lots of cards will work differently/not at all if suspended, like counters. Also it'd be boss to protect your win con, better Dispel woo! I actually find Force of Will can be an awkward card in decks that aren't as heavy on Blue, or don't run disposable Blue spells like cantrips. Silence can be played in response to some lunatic that casts Fevered Suspicion... it's not perfect, but it does effectively counter stuff that requires subsequent casts. Mizzix's Mastery is probably a better (but still truly irrelevant afaik) example I guess, or Yawgmoth's Will for one that still doesn't see much play but might matter more? OH! SILENCE POOPS HARD ON UNDERWORLD BREACH! Ha! I got there! Hey, what about Stubborn Denial in any deck that expects to have a strong Commander, Kraum or Ishai maybe? U for that is pretty sick? Am I wrong? It's like 'Kinda Mean Guardianship'!
Been loving the podcasts, especially when it’s the 3 musketeers! Also I know it was question from a couple of weeks ago but Dylan looking nice being the headphones guy part of the pod 😉
One important functionality about counter spells vs direct removal is that the opponent never gets any value out of the card (barring specific cast triggers). The scenario I always bring up to newer players on why countering a spell (permanent) is more powerful than removing it after it hits the board is if your opponent casts and resolves Tatyova, they are able to maintain priority to perform another action, such as playing a land, which will give their card value before you have a chance to get rid of it. This is why counter spells are the second-best removal. Obviously, the best removal is player removal; why removal one permanent with a card when you can remove their entire hand, field, and library?
I mean you can argue anything is good or bad by listing things on one side of the coin and ignoring the other. I could just as easily argue that Blue Blast is awful and list a bunch of win conditions that it doesn't hit which is probably a larger list than win conditions that it hits. The main issue Blue Blast is that it's redundant, whereas the red versions are not.
Very interesting you guys didn't talk about Vexing Shusher. I still run it in my Turbo Ad Naus Korvold list and the card is just cracked when I get a dockside off. Gives me a very protected win-attempt.
So here’s my argument why if you can fit in stifle effects you should 1) you spoke about not having enough cheap creature counters, well here you go. You won’t counter the creature but you’ll stop the creatures purpose, no dockside etb, no gilded drake etb, no ranger captain etb, no thassa etb, no ranger activation which wins games. The reason would counter these is for those effects so why wouldn’t you want a one drop that stops game winning etbs. 2) trickbind is essentially a uncounterable stifle that makes a thassa player lose the game immediately for trying to go for it. 2) hydroblast and blue elemental are absolutely not garbage in low color decks. When is countering dockside, underworld breach, kraum, winota, blood moon, Reb, pyroblast, birgi, dualcaster, Kiki jiki, gamble, jeska’s will, wheels, deflecting swat, final fortune etc etc for 1 mana a bad thing? In most turbo ad naus pods or winota pods this card does work! 3) spell snare is another amazing 1 drop lol. It hits every relevant card that essentially wins games or gives a huge advantage. It’s one thing to be ehh about it but garbage? I’ve always used spell snare to great effect for the most part when it’s in my hand. Granted. It works mostly in midrange/ control decks
I love mindbreak trap for a couple reasons. Thoracle combo goes off, if anyone has a counterspell that puts you to 3 unless they just sent it without their own counter. It also exiles spells so it smacks breach decks. And you can exile everything but your opponents pact of negation and screw them by leaving then with nothing and having to pay.
52:56 On a similar note I think it would be cool if you guys did a video about mana dorks and then had a section talking about what a mana dork would look like in each color combo like Deathrite Shaman. Like they could all look like Avacyn's Pilgrim but that is just a filter dork.
What i do like about the stifle, it allow you to be in the position to be in the last spot to respond and avoid to be forced by others players during the passing priority.
Illumination!!! It's 2 white mana for an instant that says " counter target artifact or enchantment spell. If that spell is countered that spells controller gains life equal to the spells mana cost."
In my Niv-mizzet Parun mid range storm list I have countless times used an offer you can't refuse on my own LED then used the two treasures to play Breach - 60% of the time, it works every time
Random thoughts I had along the lines: Mindbreak Trap has turned around a lot of games for me recently than any other spell. It's often not that great at protecting your own win, but it is really good at breaking opponent's backs. I think whether Daze is better than Mindbreak Trap depends on what the deck is you're talking about.
I very much prefer delay over mana drain in my dawnwaker build. I always assumed I'd simply be able to dump that main phase mana into an activation, but more often I lost access to blue for my 2nd or 3rd piece of interaction.
In cEDH, there is a mechanic that reinforces proactive play: time limits. In most tournaments, there is a finite amount of time per round. If you do not win within 90 minutes, you lose. This is not a perfect mechanism, but it does certainly encourage proactive play.
About that ad nauss discussion, usually players focus on stopping ad nauss rather then what comes after, so technically you don't need to find that many responses with ad nauss if attempts to counter ad nauss have already been made and you managed to defend .
One thing to keep in mind with the free counterspells if when you are casting them from the grave with Underworld Breach. In this case the only "Free" one is Pact of Negation, as the others the escape is an alternative cost so you can not use the alternative cost that makes them free as part of the escape. I.E. if you have Force of Will in your graveyard you can not escape it and pay 1 life and exile a blue card, instead you have to pay 5 and exile 3 cards.
The problem with WOTC printing white counterspells is that it could easily fuck up legacy/vintage too much. They would either have to be bad or directly tied to the commander format somehow like fierce guardianship
hydroblast is single target removal for breach, kraum, dockside with a phimage on the stack, slicer (other red commanders that aren't kraum) even when it isnt a counter spell, so i dont know if i agree. mainly if you already passed priority on red cards and can destroy while it is on the board.
Withering boon is another counter in black, but only counters creatures, Dash hopes can set off a combo of life loss for example exquisite blood on the battlefield, attempt to cast vito, they counter vito, you use dash hopes if they pay 5 life use imps mischief and your combo resolves
I really like running Repudiate// Replicate in my Silas/Kodama deck but that's because it both helps to further my gameplan and incidentally stop a game winning play.
Don’t forget when discussing the power of counter spell Our format has lied and tricked itself thanks to faster and faster grixis decks Our format runs a lot of creatures… There are few creature counter spells. Don’t get trolled into cutting counterspell… you need more answers for creatures these days. Anyways, I got this idea form Ryan at playing with power. He talked about it on their commander tier list video I think. Anyways cheers Podcast is getting more professional
i also think that white should have "unless his controller pays X" counterspells, they are not too powerful and it would be a great fit/compromise in the color pie
For the argument of Spell Pierce vs Miscast, in a vacuum I think Miscast is better. When considering that Flusterstorm exists and is usually included before both of them, I like playing Spell Pierce if I want more of this effect because it hits what Flusterstorm can't.
thank you all for such rad work always :-) i'm trying to put together Kinnan rn, and am learning a bunch from Tyler's lists; i'm finding myself removing "tier 2ish" counterspells (dispel, spell pierce, miscast, etc) and moving more toward creatures who can provide stack interaction (Glen-Elendra Archmange, new Jin-Gitaxias) (helps w/ having more dependable Kinnan activations) / i'm wondering how well Perplexing Chimera has worked as a kind of counterspell/commandeer? it seems like such a strong choice especially with homeward path :o
white inst : one , counter target spell unless opponent makes you draw 3 cards (maybe put 3 plains from deck on battlefield, or put a permanent card from graveyard into battlefield)
I think for as long as Thassa will be dominating format in alt. win condition - Trickbind should be considered as an ability counterspell. At least in my pod the split seconds like Angel's grace and Trickbind heavily impact thassa players
Stifle/trickbind is really underestimated. They can stop a lot of creature winning effects and stop storm effects like brain freeze or Flusterstorm. Also can stop your pact triggers
What's your guys' opinion Krosan Grip? I think the idea to end the stack right there and and the chance to blow up someone's mana rock is a good 2 for 1.
Don't think I heard you guys mention Foil. Do you guys think Foil is worth running in a mono-blue or two-color-blue list or do other counters still beat it out?
It's hilarious that throughout this video, the video stream only stops when Tyler is trying to say something, otherwise the video is fine, only for Tyler!🤣
I didn't see it mentioned, but how do you guys feel about Arcane Denial? Although you give your opponent draws, you're not down a card. Is that extra card draw devastating in cEDH?
After putting in my free Counters, we go to one mana, pyroblast/red blast are first on the list. A Dispel that removes the two best draw engines in the game mystic+rhystic is so important. If its a control deck and we dip into the two mana Counters, Dovin's veto is first.
Abjure sees play in Yuriko. It honestly could be a staple in that deck Trickbind having split second not only wins the stack but sometimes can KILL ppl. The upside is too high to IGNORE.
These normally dont make the cut, but, what do you think about drowned in the loch (as a removal/counter)that can counter anything, also stiffle and tales end are pretty bad but what about trickbind? It makes a thasas player lose, stops dockside, It can even counter storm as a trigger. Also some nonblue counters that i think are worth taking about are, Illumination in white, Withering Boonin mono black , and bolt bent depending on your commander. PDT : I value spell pierce way higher than misscast, and the reason is that you can ruin someones game if they keep a hand that depends on an early rhystic, remora , sol ring or crypt, ive seen people keeping really bad hands because they can rhystic turn 1 or because they have few lands but a sol ring.
it might be more of a high power card but what are your thoughts on arcane denial. 1generic 1blue it counters any spell but in return you give the person 2 cards and you get one card on the next upkeep. Is the card draw that make the card unplayable or is it just the 2 mana?
White counters could also be exile spells and give the opponent something like treasures, a tapped land, a creature. A deal you can't refuse and swan song should have been white counters also.
Something I think could be cool is if we could get a moxfield list or something of cards you guys talk about in the podcasts so people can follow along and use as a reference
Here's the link, just updated the description. Thank you!
www.moxfield.com/decks/khX6x-1u0UiFrxl3QFTGyw
This was an amazing conversation on how Kinnan is the only deck in the format. Also some counterspells.
Cam: "This week Tyler's back again"
Tyler: "Oh, shit."
😂
Drown in the Loch is also an interesting one since you have the flexibility of having it be a kill spell in need be (similar to pyroblast)
Your production quality is absolutely fantastic on top of good commentary and a good amount of humor! S-tier content!
Guys! Stifle can counter a lot more than Dockside Extortionist and ThOracle's ETB and when it does it's soooooo rewarding.
Namely: The Pact of Negation trigger, Flusterstorm or Brain Freeze's storm, Final Fortune's delayed trigger, Ranger-Captain's silence effect, many more ETBs like Imperial Recruiter's, Spellseeker's, Dualcaster Mage's. Heck, I have even countered a Sensei's Divining Top activation (the draw a card effect). It also stops the Underworld Breach sacrifice trigger (not that it matters though).
TL;DR: I just LOVE Stifle in cEDH.
Run trickbind and make sure they cant loop any activated hability or respond at all
@@rojo101290 wow i’ve never seen trickbind before that’s a really cool card
I think their point still stands. Half of the things you listed there aren't usually worth countering (eg. you would never waste a card on a sensei's activation), and even if they were, the total number of use cases is too few.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I could listen to you 3 talk about Magic all day! Please keep these kinds of episodes coming!
So good to see Tyler in the conversation. The combo of your guys personality and senses of humor, made me watch a video I probably would have skipped just because I knew it would be so much fun!!
Loving the extra content!!
You guys and playing with Power uploaded almost at the same time. I choose you everytime
Ok but we love them too
Don’t forget Ertai’s meddling. Can also target uncounterable spells, and can feed mana into it for more time counters.
Muddle is definitely the most underrated card on this list. Its flexibility is great.
Abjure still sees play in Yuriko since she loves going back to the command zone, but not much else IIRC.
I have a bunch of Rebuff the Wicked when I used to play Modern and now my friends are like "What the hell is that spell!?" lol love that response everytime
Trickbind personally is underrated along with: Render Silent, Nix, and Bolt Bend (cheap version of deflecting swat).
Nix is 💯 slept on in cEDH.
@@peteryankowsky Indeed
Budget cEDH maybe.
Trickbind = dead draw way too often.
Render Silent = time walk yourself to counter another player, catapulting the other two players at the table a full turn ahead.
Nix = only good for counter wars and a few very niche situations - doesn't counter most enemy game winners.
Bolt Bend = good if your commander is has 4+ power and is only 1-2 colours (ie. can be cast t1-2 off fast mana)
It's nice to be able to watch this on my break right now 👍🏽
Niceee
It's been a ride watching the cmc of counters go from 2 being a decent cost to being a lot of mana
Very cool of you guys to touch on how to sequence counters when you have a few options in hand
I like seeing and hearing Tyler!
Love y'all's content. You guys have been doing great work on these podcasts. Especially love seeing the collabs with other content creators.
Perfect timing with the podcast dropping while im at work. Also i picked a perfect time to get into Cedh. This podcast and Dominaria Remastered have been very helpful. Now i just need a dual lands reprint that isnt from a $999 proxy box *cough wizards cough*
Proxy the duals
Please Tyler stay on!!! Your input is my favorite
54:01 There's also the 2 mana counter for enchantments/artifacts, Illumination. Also some minor ones that counters something that target you or your creatures. Not to forget some creatures that can activate to counter spells.
I say it every week but this was another killer episode guys.
Also, in response to Dylan's comment at 5:17 I 100% agree and was having a conversation just three days ago with my best friend about how there's a lot of color identity leak amongst 4 of the 5 colors, and while some of Blue's ID has been given to the other colors by and large they're the only color with real access to counter magic and that's pretty fucked.
No idea why freeze framing on Tyler is so funny, but I chuckle every time it happens
This is why I run lifeforce and douse in my Cedh rograhk and thrasios list. It’s not just a one time use counterspell or something I have to recur to use again. It’s a repeatable engine that can’t be countered by most counterspells. That’s the biggest benefit in my opinion, the fact that if I use douse on your dockside the number of cards that answer my douse activation are incredibly low. And even if you have it, I can just pay 2 more mana after you burn it. It helps that black and red are pretty much the most played colors. Force of will does nothing against a boarded douse or lifeforce. Also you can use douse and lifeforce as many times as you want in a turn under a rule of law. Also just saying painters servant is legal.
Great chat at the end theorycrafting counterspells in other colours!
To throw my 2 cents in.. For white(if it isn't a mana-leak type of effect), it would probably be something along the lines of Arcane Denial. Counter target spell, it's controller draws a card. For red, I can see it being sacrificing an artifact or creature as an additional cost to counter the spell, and with green I think it would be something along the lines of Boseju or Assasin's Trophy. Counter the spell, it's controller searches for a land and puts it into play(I think it would be like that mainly because if WoTC starts printing these kind of colour pie breaking cards without taking into consideration other formats, they might as well just cancel any and all non-EDH support)
I love these sparatic podcasts in between weekly videos, love the content, keep it rolling!
Avoid fate was one I threw in my first magic deck lol since no one thought green had counters. It is very situational but i mean its just fun to see peoples faces after countering something in golgari.
Great cast boys! I’ll be sharing this with my group! 🙌
As someone who's dipping their toes into cedh, (mainly not fully getting into it cause of money) I love every bit of yalls conversations here, and explaining the reasonings for your personal opinions on these cards. I would also like to say that as a higher level casual player, my favorite counter is by far render silent. (In my pods, nobody has ANY kind of response to that other than instant sadness because they were about to win)
Proxy
Not a counterspell, but a fantastic piece in a counter war: what would you say about Vexing Shusher? (obviously in non-blue lists) Since you can use it to force an opponent's spell through the counter war if it's stopping something that you need stopped.
One counterspell that I am trying to make work is Drown in the Loch, 2 mana in 2 colors is a lot, and the graveyard requirements suck. But being able to destroy creatures or counter spells is very good.
My favorite White Counterspell is Deafening Silence, it’s only 1 mana and it counters all their other spells in hand off the stack before they can even play them. And that is why I play stax 😂
I know it's a 5 mana counter (and some people don't run those I guess?), but Wandering Archaic is pretty useful vs decks that run counter magic.
"We really want to be on 1 and 0 mana counters" pretty much means 'I scoop to you casting any significant Hatebear, since nobody runs removal in cEDH' for some decks, you really need counters vs creatures in some match ups. I run some sub-par counters specifically because I need to hit Oppo and Dranith, though I do pack removal to deal with them.
I would *TOTALLY* play U to Delay with only Suspend 1, lots of cards will work differently/not at all if suspended, like counters. Also it'd be boss to protect your win con, better Dispel woo!
I actually find Force of Will can be an awkward card in decks that aren't as heavy on Blue, or don't run disposable Blue spells like cantrips.
Silence can be played in response to some lunatic that casts Fevered Suspicion... it's not perfect, but it does effectively counter stuff that requires subsequent casts. Mizzix's Mastery is probably a better (but still truly irrelevant afaik) example I guess, or Yawgmoth's Will for one that still doesn't see much play but might matter more? OH! SILENCE POOPS HARD ON UNDERWORLD BREACH! Ha! I got there!
Hey, what about Stubborn Denial in any deck that expects to have a strong Commander, Kraum or Ishai maybe? U for that is pretty sick? Am I wrong? It's like 'Kinda Mean Guardianship'!
I cannot believe, they did not mention one of the best counterspells Arcane denial. I also like exclude (counter and draw card).
Tyler's face when he says "goodbye" fucking killed me
Gotta love Tyler!
Been loving the podcasts, especially when it’s the 3 musketeers! Also I know it was question from a couple of weeks ago but Dylan looking nice being the headphones guy part of the pod 😉
How do y’all feel about Stubborn Denial? It’s a 1-mana fierce guardianship if you’re on Kraum
No it ain’t!
it's definitely not something i reach for in high color lists, but i play disrupting shoal in rashmi and have been pretty impressed
One important functionality about counter spells vs direct removal is that the opponent never gets any value out of the card (barring specific cast triggers). The scenario I always bring up to newer players on why countering a spell (permanent) is more powerful than removing it after it hits the board is if your opponent casts and resolves Tatyova, they are able to maintain priority to perform another action, such as playing a land, which will give their card value before you have a chance to get rid of it. This is why counter spells are the second-best removal. Obviously, the best removal is player removal; why removal one permanent with a card when you can remove their entire hand, field, and library?
Awesome video and really good at breaking down the nuisance of the cards
You all are sleeping on Blue Elemental Blast imo. Hits Dockside, Breach, Winota, Blood Moon, Kiki, Najeela, Dargo, Magda/Birgi, Kraum, Glinthorn, etc.
Just spent a few minutes scrolling to see if anybody brought up BEB… if not, I was gonna!
I mean you can argue anything is good or bad by listing things on one side of the coin and ignoring the other.
I could just as easily argue that Blue Blast is awful and list a bunch of win conditions that it doesn't hit which is probably a larger list than win conditions that it hits.
The main issue Blue Blast is that it's redundant, whereas the red versions are not.
@chazni I agree with that, but with red being incredibly prominent in todays meta... I'd say it is justified and very powerful atm
Very interesting you guys didn't talk about Vexing Shusher. I still run it in my Turbo Ad Naus Korvold list and the card is just cracked when I get a dockside off. Gives me a very protected win-attempt.
So here’s my argument why if you can fit in stifle effects you should 1) you spoke about not having enough cheap creature counters, well here you go. You won’t counter the creature but you’ll stop the creatures purpose, no dockside etb, no gilded drake etb, no ranger captain etb, no thassa etb, no ranger activation which wins games. The reason would counter these is for those effects so why wouldn’t you want a one drop that stops game winning etbs. 2) trickbind is essentially a uncounterable stifle that makes a thassa player lose the game immediately for trying to go for it. 2) hydroblast and blue elemental are absolutely not garbage in low color decks. When is countering dockside, underworld breach, kraum, winota, blood moon, Reb, pyroblast, birgi, dualcaster, Kiki jiki, gamble, jeska’s will, wheels, deflecting swat, final fortune etc etc for 1 mana a bad thing? In most turbo ad naus pods or winota pods this card does work! 3) spell snare is another amazing 1 drop lol. It hits every relevant card that essentially wins games or gives a huge advantage. It’s one thing to be ehh about it but garbage? I’ve always used spell snare to great effect for the most part when it’s in my hand. Granted. It works mostly in midrange/ control decks
I love mindbreak trap for a couple reasons. Thoracle combo goes off, if anyone has a counterspell that puts you to 3 unless they just sent it without their own counter. It also exiles spells so it smacks breach decks. And you can exile everything but your opponents pact of negation and screw them by leaving then with nothing and having to pay.
The same opponent has to cast 3 spells for Mindbreak Trap to be active. Its worded as "an opponenent" not "your opponents"
uh no, one of your opponents has to cast 3 or more spells that turn, it's trash
52:56 On a similar note I think it would be cool if you guys did a video about mana dorks and then had a section talking about what a mana dork would look like in each color combo like Deathrite Shaman. Like they could all look like Avacyn's Pilgrim but that is just a filter dork.
What i do like about the stifle, it allow you to be in the position to be in the last spot to respond and avoid to be forced by others players during the passing priority.
deflecting swatting someone’s peer into the abyss to myself has to be my favorite use for swat 😂.
Illumination!!! It's 2 white mana for an instant that says " counter target artifact or enchantment spell. If that spell is countered that spells controller gains life equal to the spells mana cost."
In my Niv-mizzet Parun mid range storm list I have countless times used an offer you can't refuse on my own LED then used the two treasures to play Breach - 60% of the time, it works every time
P.s Abjure is great as a spicy card in Yuriko. If anyone still plays that
Good video. What about Wash Away? Counter a spell that wasn't cast from hand for 1 mana or 3 mana for reg counter. 1 mana to counter a commander.
Random thoughts I had along the lines: Mindbreak Trap has turned around a lot of games for me recently than any other spell. It's often not that great at protecting your own win, but it is really good at breaking opponent's backs. I think whether Daze is better than Mindbreak Trap depends on what the deck is you're talking about.
What about Ertai’s meddling? The delay that can counter uncounterable spells
Great video as always. You could try making tier lists as the NPN, sometimes I take screenshots to share them.
I think its about time for a Slicer game on Play to win!
muddle the mixture is purely for searching up spellskite or Kinnan or dockside for Neoforming into Glint-horn the next turn in my pirates deck.
I very much prefer delay over mana drain in my dawnwaker build. I always assumed I'd simply be able to dump that main phase mana into an activation, but more often I lost access to blue for my 2nd or 3rd piece of interaction.
In cEDH, there is a mechanic that reinforces proactive play: time limits. In most tournaments, there is a finite amount of time per round. If you do not win within 90 minutes, you lose. This is not a perfect mechanism, but it does certainly encourage proactive play.
About that ad nauss discussion, usually players focus on stopping ad nauss rather then what comes after, so technically you don't need to find that many responses with ad nauss if attempts to counter ad nauss have already been made and you managed to defend .
Id love to see a white mana counter spell thats like a swords to plowshares or a path to exile
I love these kind of vids guys keep up the great content, see you at puntcity 2!
I wonder what your thoughts are on the new remand in white. (doesnt counter but returns spell to hand).
Nothing beats the feeling of using Narset's Reversal on Crop Rotation or Time Warp
One thing to keep in mind with the free counterspells if when you are casting them from the grave with Underworld Breach. In this case the only "Free" one is Pact of Negation, as the others the escape is an alternative cost so you can not use the alternative cost that makes them free as part of the escape. I.E. if you have Force of Will in your graveyard you can not escape it and pay 1 life and exile a blue card, instead you have to pay 5 and exile 3 cards.
The problem with WOTC printing white counterspells is that it could easily fuck up legacy/vintage too much. They would either have to be bad or directly tied to the commander format somehow like fierce guardianship
Don't forget Swan Song being an alternate wincon in Timetwister loops
hydroblast is single target removal for breach, kraum, dockside with a phimage on the stack, slicer (other red commanders that aren't kraum) even when it isnt a counter spell, so i dont know if i agree. mainly if you already passed priority on red cards and can destroy while it is on the board.
Withering boon is another counter in black, but only counters creatures, Dash hopes can set off a combo of life loss for example exquisite blood on the battlefield, attempt to cast vito, they counter vito, you use dash hopes if they pay 5 life use imps mischief and your combo resolves
I really like running Repudiate// Replicate in my Silas/Kodama deck but that's because it both helps to further my gameplan and incidentally stop a game winning play.
Don’t forget when discussing the power of counter spell
Our format has lied and tricked itself thanks to faster and faster grixis decks
Our format runs a lot of creatures…
There are few creature counter spells.
Don’t get trolled into cutting counterspell… you need more answers for creatures these days.
Anyways, I got this idea form Ryan at playing with power. He talked about it on their commander tier list video I think.
Anyways cheers
Podcast is getting more professional
i also think that white should have "unless his controller pays X" counterspells, they are not too powerful and it would be a great fit/compromise in the color pie
Mana Tithe is unironically in White’s color pie
@@janmelantu7490 yeah but i think it came out in time spiral which is famous for its color pie break, but it's not the norm
For the argument of Spell Pierce vs Miscast, in a vacuum I think Miscast is better. When considering that Flusterstorm exists and is usually included before both of them, I like playing Spell Pierce if I want more of this effect because it hits what Flusterstorm can't.
thank you all for such rad work always :-) i'm trying to put together Kinnan rn, and am learning a bunch from Tyler's lists; i'm finding myself removing "tier 2ish" counterspells (dispel, spell pierce, miscast, etc) and moving more toward creatures who can provide stack interaction (Glen-Elendra Archmange, new Jin-Gitaxias) (helps w/ having more dependable Kinnan activations) / i'm wondering how well Perplexing Chimera has worked as a kind of counterspell/commandeer? it seems like such a strong choice especially with homeward path :o
white inst : one , counter target spell unless opponent makes you draw 3 cards (maybe put 3 plains from deck on battlefield, or put a permanent card from graveyard into battlefield)
The one exception for trickbind's narrow nature is Split Second, it guarantees it happens.
I think for as long as Thassa will be dominating format in alt. win condition - Trickbind should be considered as an ability counterspell. At least in my pod the split seconds like Angel's grace and Trickbind heavily impact thassa players
I really hope they talk about Mana Tithe and Reprieve… my beloved
7:00 Mana leak is not a modern all-star btw, mana leak is one of those cards you hope to never register but might if you can't make UU.
Note: Veil of summer makes things uncounterable. Even if they pyroblast or red blast still uncounterable.
Stifle/trickbind is really underestimated. They can stop a lot of creature winning effects and stop storm effects like brain freeze or Flusterstorm. Also can stop your pact triggers
Also trickbind stops activated abilities for that turn, too good
What's your guys' opinion Krosan Grip? I think the idea to end the stack right there and and the chance to blow up someone's mana rock is a good 2 for 1.
1:36 Tyler's system shook the earth.
Tyler is very nice to have around
Don't think I heard you guys mention Foil. Do you guys think Foil is worth running in a mono-blue or two-color-blue list or do other counters still beat it out?
A weird one is Ertai's Meddling. 2 mana might be too high but it gets around mindbreak trap dovin's veto
Discontinuity is my favorite “counter spell” it’s so run in Urza stax/big mana
What's your guys opinion of Avoid Fate? I feel like its underrated.
It's hilarious that throughout this video, the video stream only stops when Tyler is trying to say something, otherwise the video is fine, only for Tyler!🤣
I didn't see it mentioned, but how do you guys feel about Arcane Denial? Although you give your opponent draws, you're not down a card. Is that extra card draw devastating in cEDH?
If you give an opponent extra cards you sure are down a card
After putting in my free Counters, we go to one mana, pyroblast/red blast are first on the list. A Dispel that removes the two best draw engines in the game mystic+rhystic is so important.
If its a control deck and we dip into the two mana Counters, Dovin's veto is first.
Abjure sees play in Yuriko. It honestly could be a staple in that deck
Trickbind having split second not only wins the stack but sometimes can KILL ppl. The upside is too high to IGNORE.
These normally dont make the cut, but, what do you think about drowned in the loch (as a removal/counter)that can counter anything, also stiffle and tales end are pretty bad but what about trickbind? It makes a thasas player lose, stops dockside, It can even counter storm as a trigger.
Also some nonblue counters that i think are worth taking about are, Illumination in white, Withering Boonin mono black , and bolt bent depending on your commander.
PDT : I value spell pierce way higher than misscast, and the reason is that you can ruin someones game if they keep a hand that depends on an early rhystic, remora , sol ring or crypt, ive seen people keeping really bad hands because they can rhystic turn 1 or because they have few lands but a sol ring.
Thoughts on foil free counter (kinda)???
it might be more of a high power card but what are your thoughts on arcane denial. 1generic 1blue it counters any spell but in return you give the person 2 cards and you get one card on the next upkeep. Is the card draw that make the card unplayable or is it just the 2 mana?
So happy I’m not the only one who says grand arbiter when I say grand abolisher lol. 5:47
Is Annul never good enough to make the cut? It's 1 mana that stops so many of the cedh Staples.
Where does Narset's Reversal sit? I know it's technically not a counterspell, but can also have a very high ceiling if played in the right situation.
i'm a big fan of Big Fart Noise. underplayed in the cEDH meta, imo
White counters could also be exile spells and give the opponent something like treasures, a tapped land, a creature. A deal you can't refuse and swan song should have been white counters also.
just a note about veil of summer, It says spells cant be countered period. It doesn't care about the color of the counter