IMPROVED Could Okinawa Be Defended From A Full Chinese Air Attack? (WarGames 68B) | DCS
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
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Original Vid: • Could The USAF At Okin...
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0:00 Overview & Research
3:39 US & Japanese Units
7:00 Chinese Units
12:53 Rules & Tactics
14:03 Battle!
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#GRWarGames #WarGames #USAF #USMC #US #China #Okinawa #GR #DCSWorld #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military - Ігри
I’m still low key waiting for a 6 h carrier battle from 1000 km away
YES, same, would be amazing
Yes!
Why?
In for watching it
I know cap says 1-1.5hr videos, due to scheduling, but man, a multiple hour mission/episode would be amazing and would definitely watch!
Imagine the INSANE search and rescue operation that would need to take place after this.
I wonder if the chinese would do like russians basically abandonning their pilots to die
@@lolmao500 does sound like something the CCP will do
@Chen Ma no lock them down, by welding them into their houses for months on end so the just commit suicide or starve to death, or they force people to go to unsanitary quarantine facilities where their babies die of neglect. Ask Shanghai how the lockdowns in China went? Unlike in China they counted every death during covid as a likely covid death in the west while China covered up and denied most covid deaths.
Also let’s not forget where it started. The CCP banned flights from wuhan to other parts of China during the initial outbreak in wuhan meanwhile they tried to fly people from wuhan all over the world and when the flights from China were blocked in the west when the west realized the CCP had lied and it was transmitted person to person, the CCP claimed “racism”! Also the CCP are still blaming foreigners for current outbreaks in China even though no foreigners are being allowed into China for the last two years. I mean I know you wouldn’t know these things because you watch CGTN and the Global Times and they don’t allow Chinese people to use open internet or view western media. Good try Wumao
We don't need to send out a rescue party they are just AI pilots. They are just AI pilots right? right...
@@Sightbain. Ender's Game moment
BTW, to extend the range of fully loaded aircraft, they often take off with just enough fuel to get airborne with the load and then aerial refuel shortly after. If this strategy is used, the range would be extended with a heavier load and the refuelers would not need to enter into hostile airspace. This may only mean one or two extra armaments, but maybe it would help. Setting up such a complex strategy may not be practical with the available software.
I wouldn't have thought that would be practical with such a large attacking force because of the amount of time it would take to refuel every aircraft, although I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone else knows better.
@Chen Ma Yeah, only 3 Cluster munitions would've made it threw. If that's the case it still wouldn't have taken out the runway. It also would be interesting to see the reverse.
@Chen Ma Your saying like China has the Capability to send multiple waves in a single day. Which they do not if I might add.
Your also trying to say that china has MGM-31 Pershing's which China doesn't own that's the United States. China owns the DF26 yes. Although Radar will see it since its designed to go up into the stratosphere and basically nose dive down on a target. It's used as a Precision Missile than anything else. Patriot II's are still designed to shoot at things 90,000-100,000 Feet up. Let's also step this up a notch. the DF-26 (Land based) is also a Nuclear Warhead. It Stands to reason that if they used Nukes on an Air base. the Americans would use their own MRBMS and ICBMS. your acting like the U.S. doesn't have the capability or similar weapons. If your going down the MRBMs/ICBMs route the United States have more Nukes and Cluster munitions than any country right now. As well you are hitting Okinawa, Japan. You aren't fighting the United States Alone you are also fighting Japan with their collection of MRBMs/ICBMs.
It's not the fight you think it is nor is it the fight you think it'll turn out to be since everyone will be glassed. very stupid scenario as well because if your trying to take a place you want it for its resources etc. All in all Patriot II's will get most of them if china expends all its MRBMs then before they can replace them and fire again china itself would be facing a retaliatory strike of MRBMs and ICBMs. like u said why waste pilot life when u can waste more life
@Chen Ma I mean the weapons in this video was Hypersonic. so its kinda stupid to say it didn't work. Secondly the only planes that China has that is stealth is the J20. Which is not made to be a dogfighter.
It is kind of weird for you to assume that they wouldn't escort their bombers like this because I mean once detected with Zero fighter escort they will be shot down.
You are comparing Ukraine with around 70 Airframes to Russia has around 600 Airframes and can produce 130 airframes a year. The math does not add up here. All this says here is that russia is incompetent because they can't win using the numbers and quality aspect. Russia has better planes than Ukraine and more planes than Ukraine. Pretty much the only reason why you haven't scene a massive force as presented in the video.
I agree that that you won't see big battles today as presented. Although the only reason we don't see big battles like this is because the balance of forces are not equal nor are they Peer to Peer. It's not like Russia attacked the United States or China attacked Okinawa.
Addressing the Hypersonic Missiles Russia and China are developing. It is not that it can't be shot down. The primary objective is that if you send 20 missiles with the low probability of being shot down it is better than sending 100 missiles with a high probability of being shot down.
Right now Aegis has trouble tracking them because it is to fast. Although that doesn't mean it can't track them just that it takes longer than a Standard missile. By the time it gets a lock it will be to late. (This is a 1 to 1 comparison.) That is the Hope anyway with Hypersonic missiles. On the flip side If you have lets say a lot of Patriot Batteries you can saturate an area. same with SA-300/400 making it difficult for anything to get through regardless of if its Hypersonic or not. There is a better chance of shooting something down coming towards you than away from you.
Another Key note to this is that with every Weapon System a Defensive counter measure will be discovered. This is true for everything. Including the Delivery system.
@Chen Ma It would be a terrible idea to launch a ICBM even if it was replaced with a conventional payload from my understanding conventional ICBMs are only used for export to non nuclear nations since an ICBM launch from a nuclear power would almost certainly trigger a nuclear response.
The very last thing that my father definitely reacted to before he passed away. A group of veterans were visiting other veterans in the hospice facility he was at, one of them a US Marine. My mom was telling them about a surgery to remove a brain tumor previously, and how he had been determined to recover quickly because he wanted to attend a reunion of Navy shipmates. He did recover in time to attend.
Marine: "I didn't know Navy guys could be that tough."
Mom: "What do you think he is? A jarhead?"
Dad: _very obviously smiles_
Though he couldn't speak at that point, I know he was thinking "That's my girl."
That's a beautiful insight into your family's relationship. Thanks for sharing.
Beautiful ❤
I really think the overload of the battle did not do the F-15 right. They waited till what seems to be the last second to even truely react to closed contacts
Yea they would do more BVR
@@SupaMan2122 Is it possible that the huge amount of targets and radar jamming interfered with their targeting systems?
@@georgegalkin2078f15e radar can cut thru remember it only a game and no professional pilots fly for real.
My stomping grounds. My brother is on the Izumo. It was recently refurbished to accommodate the F-35B.
I lived in Okinawa City for 3 years and worked on Kadena, building missiles and bombs for the navy and marine corps air wings
Respect to your brother and your family for supporting him 🤙
The amount of work you put on these videos is awesome, thanks for the good show!
That's for DARNED sure! 👍👍🙌
Imagine the war crimes China would commit...
Dang, y'all got eight volunteers to pilot, and a bunch of research... Great job
I lived on Okinawa for a couple years and visited Taiwan twice. I certainly have no anger toward the average Chinese citizen and want peace above all. Good trade and fun vacations
They allow their evil gov to do what it does brainwashed or not they should be resisting the psychotic behavior of whinnie the Pooh at all costs
I love how you could run the same simulation a bunch of times and get a different result every time
The closer the match between forces, the more the results are non-deterministic.
@@staubsauger2305exactly! The more probabilistic/stochastic they would be in that case
SAR pilots will be busy for a long time.
PLA pilots will be POWs, USA pilots will be getting replacement airframes inside of 48 hours
Wrong, US pilots will be POW's and Chinese pilots and missiles will have destroyed Okinawa. Mainly the hypersonic missiles that the USA has zero defence against. Another USA defeat against China just like 1950-53
This is about the outcome I was expecting from the first video. This one feels more of what would likely happen. Minus not having an US Navy or JMSDF to use sm2's or Cwiz to shoot down enemy missiles and aircraft...and though you stated that the Chinese would wait for the US Navy not to be there however, the JMSDF Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force will always be there. Great show, thank you for doing what you do. Cheers.
If china showed signs of gathering resources for an attack there would likely be a constant naval precense by the us.
@@MrEshah 100% agree
I can tell you, this is not possible. If the fight will breakout, China would strike all US airbase around China. If you search up DF-17, DF-5, DF-21, DF 31, DF26 and DF 41. In real life, China would definitly not stupid to a point to start a air combat with US when there is so much more option, for example missile strike in the first place.
@@sonaldosui8154 are you a part of a think tank?
@@djthechef8975 It might be a little out, but I have 600 hours on DCS. If he place the J20 a little to the central and in-front of all other planes, it would be a different result. If you see carefully, the F35 had shoot off lot of J10s in the start of the battle, if this could be avoided, the result would be so much different.
Cap! This was a great video and I appreciate the opportunity to help you research this mission. I thank you for posting the link to my little UA-cam channel. It already gained me 5 subscribers as of this posting. It has been fun to watch this and I was so happy to have had a role in how this was planned.
@@Fuzzybunny-ki1cw if you mean me, I am the researcher and a former Intel Analyst.
@@CombatIneffective woooops sorry. I read that wrong :(
Thank you for making a second version, it looks like a lot of work! I typed out a lot of stuff below, so I hope you're willing to give it a read and perhaps entertain the concept. I know I'd love to see how it plays out (using two different strategies for the same attack).
Here are my thoughts on the overall defensive plan when given a large number of aircraft to defend an island. I wish I knew more about modern defensive air battle tactics, but I assume they would do something like I'm attempting to explain below. I'm really not sure, but now that we've seen it play out when one defender scrambles as fast as possible and essentially enters the intercept area one aircraft at a time, I think it would be really cool to see this play out when the defenders sacrifice time-to-intercept for greater survivability and lethality by forming into defensive waves (or at least one initial wave).
I know complete destruction of runways would make the recovery of allied jets virtually impossible and that's what drove the concept to scramble and intercept ASAP. However, it must be highlighted that complete defeat is only accomplished if China were able to take out every runway on the island. If there's a surviving runway and surviving jets running on fumes, they would be forced to use risky landing patterns and formation landings, but they would get down onto the runway ASAP and just one runway without craters would do it. Assuming one runway survives within range of the jets on low fuel, then the primary defensive objective for this entire battle isn't truly stopping the cruise missiles or the attack aircraft launching the cruise missiles, it's simply taking down as many enemy aircraft as possible while also having as many friendly aircraft as possible surviving the battle to fight during the next potential attack. With that in mind, along with the limitations of DCS, I may have a better plan that would create a more accurate war game/simulation for this particular battle. It won't look proper, but that's due to the limitations of DCS, the mission editor, and AI.
With the first two videos created in Okinawa, we have some valuable information. First, we know from both simulated attempts that the US/Japanese jets have had zero chance of taking out the enemy attack aircraft launching the cruise missiles. In both attempts, they've rushed in, almost single file, and have gotten slaughtered as a result of the Chinese jets attacking in pretty effective waves of fighter aircraft in a roughly line-abreast formation. Second, analysis of this video and just letting the US/Japanese aircraft scramble and form up (perhaps by running the sim again privately on your end, but removing the enemy forces and then just timing how fast they can scramble and form up) would give you the approximate intercept point/bullseye point for the overall battle.
Using that intercept point, you can trick DCS and the limitations of the mission editor and AI to manually set up your own defensive plan. For example, let's just say the intercept/bullseye is ultimately 100 nm off the western coast of the island, as determined by the amount of time it takes 16x F-15 to scramble and form up in a basic battle formation/spread/line-abreast formation. This would be defensive wave one of aircraft (you could also mix in the F-35 jets, keep them as separate formations, perhaps even have them form a pincer), and based on the relevant intercept speeds, let's just say they would start in the air in a rough formation of 16 aircraft at about 50 nm east of the island and heading directly towards the Chinese jets, using that predicted intercept point/bullseye of 100 nm west of the island. Basically, it's the same concept as a time-on-attack scenario, but using the different jet models and their intercept speeds to meet at a realistic point off of the island using the amount of time it would otherwise take to scramble and form up.
Then this would repeat until you have several more lines of x number of defending aircraft headed towards the Chinese formation. The 16 number isn't supported by anything in particular, but it appears to be a decent number balancing the amount of time it takes to scramble and get in formation, while still being effective enough to intercept the large formation of Chinese jets, and finally, still balancing the fact they don't have all day to take off and assemble. Perhaps a better defensive option is for 8/12/20 jets to assemble before meeting the Chinese, and then they would survive just long enough to create a defensive screen of the island itself and the remaining US/Japanese jets can then enter the battle one at a time, to simulate an initial organized defensive force followed by sending as many reinforcements into the defense as possible.
Whether it's a defensive wave and then a trickle of one jet at-a-time or multiple waves of x number of jets in battle formation, I believe that would be a more effective defense as defined by keeping the Chinese aircraft off the coast of the island, while also ensuring as many allied aircraft as possible survive to the end of the battle, and finally, giving the IAD network enough time and resources to focus on taking down as many cruise missiles as possible in order to ensure at least one airstrip survives the attack. Since we know we can't reach the attack aircraft in time and prevent the cruise missiles from launching, I believe the whole simulation turns into an effort to maximize the surviving aircraft and defend the island from aircraft being directly overhead. There's no guarantee the defending force would be able to recognize this, but if you have dozens of senior lifetime officers in command of the island's defense, and they're given the alert of incoming forces, I believe they would be able to recognize whether or not they could prevent the attack/bomber aircraft from launching their attack based on the estimated size of the attacking force, their current position, and their current speed, all combined with the number of defending assets available and the time it would take to scramble and intercept. They should know the speeds of the bombers for example, so if they can't get a realistic number of jets to intercept them (within missile range) by the time the attackers are in the range of cruise missile launch parameters, then I believe the focus would be to ultimately take out as many enemy jets as possible while maintaining the best defensive formation possible in order to maximize both survivability and lethality of their forces. In other words, if it's too late to take down the cruise missile threat, it's probably best to weaken the enemy as much as possible. This could also include splitting your defensive force into jets sent to take down attacking aircraft, and x number of remaining defenders to try and shoot down cruise missiles.
Anyway, everything I typed is really begging for one more simulation to be run, but it's a lot to ask. Sincerely though, I'm simply trying to help out by providing my general thoughts, and perhaps this will be helpful in creating more glorious content, as I love watching all of these war games/simulation videos!
Thank you as always! 👍
I wrote my comment above in the early stages of the battle. Perhaps I should stop doing that, but if I comment on a video, I usually reply just as I witness something in order to provide neutral observations. For example, I'm replying to my own comment after seeing the Chinese jets wiped out. I wasn't able to tell from the video itself due to all of the action, but the J-20s either fired all of their missiles and then went into this weird low-altitude sneaky mode, ran out of fuel, and decided the best tactic was to go low at 330 knots (huh?), or they are simply bugged at the moment because "mods."
In addition to the funky J-20s, I think the conclusion on why the US/Japanese forces won handily is ironically due to my original comment as to why this "trickle-attack" method would be unrealistic in the real world. I believe the US jets going in one-by-one essentially "tricked" the relatively dumb "group AI" of the attacking jets. We've seen the individual AI in both BVR and BFM drastically improve in recent updates, but I think that's limited to smaller battles, perhaps 10 vs. 10 at the most. Or, the AI could potentially be programmed to fight as a group based purely on what targets are within range at the given moment of engagement, rather than what they can see on their radar. The final likely possibility may simply be the AI isn't programmed to communicate properly during large-scale engagements. For example, two human pilots may have an enemy flight of two jets within range at 40 nm, and then four more enemy jets further out at 120 nm away. If they have a combined missile count of eight AIM-120Ds, they're not going to fire all eight of their missiles at the two jets within range.
It appears this is exactly what the AI jets are doing. This would explain why the Chinese jets arrived in large numbers at the intercept point and encountered a relatively large amount of US/Japanese jets which were taken out in large numbers, followed by one or two US/Japanese jets entering enemy range at a given time. Once the defenders started making more progress due to attacking jets running out of missiles and defenders being able to fire more of their missiles at multiple red targets in range at the same time, the battle turned quickly to a blue advantage.
To help explain further, if you look at 36:04 the remaining Chinese jets are just firing a ton of missiles at one target (it appears to be 10x PL-15 at the lone AWACS) as if they have absolutely none of their AI brains looking at the larger picture. If this is the issue, it would have to be accepted as a limitation of DCS at the moment. The only possible fix I can even think of (which may help, but wouldn't solve this issue) would result in a massive furball where all of the jets collide at one time (potentially bringing down the server), or the opposite approach, where the battle is extremely structured and equal waves of attacking and defending meet at set intervals. Either way, it would be artificial and unrealistic. As always, I'm just throwing my thoughts out there in an effort to try and help. I want more videos like this, so of course, I want to help. 💋💦
Great video! 2 things I want to point out: J-20 can only carry 4xPL-15 in its weapons bay, not 6; the Chinese should also deploy J-16D EW planes for SEAD
Also the j20 radar cross section is more like a couple of meters I think....
@@diclo383 I actually don’t doubt the RCS of J-20, seeing that China might be the only nation besides the US to work out the single piece canopy technology that truly enables a stealthy design.
@@thomaszhang3101 India has reported it’s not stealthy the US would know if it is or not it’s likely semi stealth but not to the level of the F-35 or 22 but between SU-57 and the US
@@Mystical922 the J-20 was probably detected by the Indians when it deployed luneburg lenses to hide its actual RCS. I cannot recall any stealth fighter deployed close to the border without deploying luneburg lenses.
@@thomaszhang3101 USAF sometimes allegedly does but they also run them with lenses most times I know that they will sometimes do it but very rarely
I’m stationed out in Hawaii for the USAF, but RIMPAC was cool !
That was a mighty fine episode. Thanks GR Team and Cap.
In real life, the Chinese probably sent in their hypersonics first to cut the runways or take out the Patriots. 🤔
Possible 🤔
hypersonic missiles with no air cover are target practice for f-15's
@@bradleynugent4991 Did you confuse hypersonics with something else?
@@903IDFOLEY don’t believe everything you read online, hypersonic missiles can be and have been shot down with supersonic missiles
@@bradleynugent4991 Riiiight… But I should listen to the random nobody in the YT comment section who says hypersonics are trash while every decent military on the planet are rushing to build them…
can't wait till this scenario becomes a series in itself lol. Looking at all the "but what about..." comments on this video there is potential for a third iteration, which will then enable a fourth and so on
I spent two wonderful years of my childhood as an Army brat on Okinawa. That was in 1953-54. My father was an Army Engineer sent there to upgrade the runway for B52s. The island was completely different in those days. It was a playground for us kids. We used to imagine a battle like the one in this scenario. We assumed the Chinese would hit us with an A-bomb, but with no follow-up. In 1966, on the way to my first tour in Vietnam, our transport plane landed at Kadena and we passengers were let off to get some walking-around time, fresh air, and shop in a little PX the Air Force had set up. I did not recognize any thing but the hills on the horizon and the little knoll the PX was on. I was stunned to realize the knoll was the site of the grandstand where we used to watch the air shows the AF used to put on with live ammo including napalm ( I kid you not). The shock and nostalgia was so poignant I felt like bursting into tears. But of course I was a 2LT and had to maintain my officerly dignity. Next stop was Pleiku, then An Khe, then some LZ in the boonies. I'd like to say I grew up fast, but the truth is I'm 81 years old today and I still have my childish attitude. That's why I watch Grim Reapers.
Curious: Is it possible to filter out the downed pilots? Would make it a tad simpler to follow the action.
I think the AI J-20s doing basically nothing, flying straight and getting shot down like sitting ducks screwed the simulation a bit. Also the fact that there are so few of them.
They ran out of fuel.
Irl there’s only 50+ J-20s in service as opposed to 800+ F-35s in service so the numbers make sense. AI could be better tho
@@joelmachado459 50 is a very old number. Production has ramped up. They are past 150, probably close to F22 numbers.
I think they shot all their big missiles, and then ran out of fuel getting to the merge. Shame there is no way to keep them from going nuts the second they see a radar return, then there'd be fuel for ACM and a better ToT effect.
@@joelmachado459 800 across the world, whereas every single J20 is in China.
The interesting thing about the E-2D is that its radar is likely anti-stealth capable. Its a UHF radar , which normally are able to see stealth fighters much better than X/S band radars however they suffer from not being as accurate. Appearently Lockheed/Northrop say they've been able to mitigate that.
If you have multiple of those radars working together, data processing can narrow down the margin or error significantly. It still won't be super accurate, but perhaps enough that an AMRAAM D-7 guided in on data link going Pitbull may be able to detect the stealth form short range
You would think the British got the best state of the art radars...as it was the British that invented radar after all....just saying.
@@jamielye2246 that doesnt mean anything. lol
To see stealth stuff on a radar has never been a problem. The point is to be able to TARGET it.
even if they are, theyd be no good for targeting the stealths, only spotting them
Hey Cap. Just wanna mention how much I appreciate your vids! Hope you're doing well. 💪
Came for US/Japan vs China. Stayed for a reenactment of mission 11 in Project Wingman.
Could you possibly try a Japanese invasion of the Kunushir and Iturup islands just northeast of Hokkaido Japan? They are currently occupied by Russia and Japan also lays claims to them.
If you'd like you can also do two parts where the first is the Japanese first strike and the second is a counter-attack by Russia when more equipment and vehicles arrive.
I appreciate the well thought out videos and I assume everyone else does too, thanks!
I don't think Russia can counter attack due to current events in Ukraine
@@stellarsub-orbital9922 exactly, perfect time to strike. Japan has been drastically increasing its defense budget recently so it would be interesting to see what might happen.
@@stellarsub-orbital9922 I think it's still possible. They have LOTS of equipment (in uh... various states of repair) and a Japanese invasion would make it legal for them to deploy conscripts openly per their own laws. The morale would also likely be there.
I'm sure that Ukraine would sieze an opportunity to accept a cease-fire, which would allow them to rearm and refit. This would allow Russia to shuffle forces so better equipment and combat vets would be available for the counterattack. Any Japanese forces would be VERY green too, so I think the Russians would still be formidable.
Would make for a good video!
@@joshuafelder2701 honestly I think it depends on what the Russians see more value in, a large land mass great for farming in Europe or some little islands, I honestly think Japan could take the whole of the Kuril Islands while Russia is focused on Ukraine and they wouldn’t bat and eye.
@@morganlambley8655 that conflicts with Putin's "New Russian Empire" plan though. But... NOBODY saw Ukraine going the way it is so, who knows?
Watching the first part of the actual fight and seeing the Chinese fighters go to burner gave me an idea: have the Lightnings take off first and go to burner, then engage at maximum range. Only then allow the F15s to take off. That way the Chinese would be dealt major damage before they even had any situational awareness, and the F15s could then close in to finish things off. Would it not work better as a defensive tactic? Just a thought.
the problem with that is time, the chinese would be seen at around 250 - 300 miles, going 700 mph, ud have around 25 minutes till the chinese got to a point where they could simply shoot down any aircraft taking off from okinawa. thats not enough time to risk not scrambling all your aircraft at once.
@Kirk Wolfe what is a statean?
@Kirk Wolfe Well, I was only speaking about an alternative way of setting up this mission, which is an online simulator published here by Grim Reapers for our entertainment. It isn't really the real world.
"Kiev" -- Russian spelling. I'd say you were a bot but the passion in your reply has to come from a riled up human. Hey, chillax man. You'll have plenty to get riled up about here in a few months when the bottom falls out of Putin's plan. Believe me. In the meantime, relax and enjoy these mission scenarios for what they are, just a way to have fun. Cap is a riot to hear. He chatters and it's hilarious, and these guys work hard to entertain us. That's all it is -- entertainment. Have a shot of the good stuff and smile. :)
@@user-dn6oi6dt7k that's a fair point, and Cap did allude to the "surprise" nature of this scenario. However, we all know that especially right now (and I'm thinking always) Okinawa would have had AWACS aloft 24/7, and even if they hadn't there is every reason to believe that Taiwanese platforms would have seen the Chinese take off almost immediately and would have alerted Okinawa. That's just how things work. So if we took that to be the scenario, my idea might just work. Good call though, and now that you've pointed it out I do think that if Okinawa and Taiwan were both asleep at the wheel (as they were in this scenario) then your objection is perfectly valid. But they don't snooze at the wheel. Ever.
@@billisaacs702 To be fair I saw Kiev spelled that way before I saw the western version, which I have forgotten.
I truly appreciate your work on these, and they are fantastic.
awesome that hour flew by, thank you one and all
That was really fun video. I thought the chinese would do a little better but it went pretty much as I thought it would. Nice video.
There's no way the blues would take 30+ minutes to scramble in this situation, perhaps start some of them airborne a little behind the airfield in future to simulate a real "oh shit" scramble situation where they'd just be yeeting into the air ASAP?
Both versions lots o fun to watch! Thanks for all your efforts producing it twice
Thanks guys you made me check. The fixwing aircraft at Futenma airbase have been moved to kadena. In real life
40:16 That AI F-15 shot down Four J-20's! Lmao he deserves a Medal!😆😂👍👍
Not possible
@@k.k.c8670 well idk what to tell you bc it happened! Just watch for yourself... Lol I understand it's just a simulation so I guess keep that in mind ;)
Lmao I think GR got Tom Cruise to fly an F-15 for them and that's what happened 😂🤣
Wouldn't the Chinese send in their J-20 ahead of everyone else being in detection range, and take out the AWAC's first?
Yup.. Most likely the j20s would go in first. And many more of them than this simulation assumes
Maybe. They'll likely be shot down though.
So the J-20 has the same radar cross section as an f22. Lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@@Netgazum Both have cross sections similar to bofa.
@@mr_beezlebub3985 there is only 1 5th gen fighter on this planet and it's the f22. There are no others.
Great show Cap. Keep doing what you do.
These are such fun to watch! Thanks GR!
Question: Wouldn’t one or two E-2/E-3 with some fighters been in the air already doing patrols?
Then the Chinese wouldn’t be able to conduct a surprise attack
My theory is that there are satellites watching airfields in China. They saw them, alerted Okinawa and that's why it's not a total "surprise".
Love the vid and how much effort you put into the videos. One thing is the f-35s. Both 121 and 242 are on mainland japan. They do go to Okinawa quite often to practice carrier landings. So they can and most likely will be in Okinawa if an attack happens. But if it was a surprise attack, they wouldn’t be there to help defend.
There would never be a surprise attack though
This is really amazing... great work cap, and others..
Fun mission cap! Well put together!
Love waking up to a new GR wargames video!
Great stuff. D'you know what I'd really like to see? A post op summary of just how much the total dollar cost in losses is for each side. I mean, can anyone actually afford this sort of war anymore?
Once. Twice, if you're America. That's what makes America win! (Until we deliberately lose, because we're actually afraid of success).
Just the two AWACs the Chinese lost is a like a billion dollars right off the bat. These kinds of loss rates would definitely be unsustainable in anything but the short term. Easier for a very rich country like the US to absorb the cost than most.
The other thing to consider though is that this was mostly 4th Gen vs 4th Gen. The US and Japan came out a bit ahead, and wouldn't be able to sustain those sorts of losses for very long. The problem for China is, an attack like this would likely prompt the US and its allies to deploy a lot more of their considerable inventory of 5th generation fighters. They could easily do that since China failed to destroy the air bases. That would change the whole paradigm, since China would suffer the same loss rates in any further attacks, while US and allied losses would drop to near zero. China could deploy more J-20s, but even if the J-20 was the equal of US 5th Gen fighters, (which it isn't) they still don't have enough of them to compete on a level playing field. A massive surprise first strike was pretty much China's only shot at winning this fight.
I think it's cool you were quick to make an updated version of this. I know there's always limits and unaccounted variables, but this is still the closest the general public gets to a real simulation and it's cool to see.
Just discovered this channel. Wow this is fun and you guys are great. I’m an American and I think “cheeky” is exactly what I would describe you guys as. Subbed
I'm pretty sure, there should be a squadron of F-22's at Kadena. From what I can surmise, the 525th fighter squadron deployed to Kadena in 2018, went to Guam in 2021 for Pacific Iron 21, and then returned the same year. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
It’s kinda intermittent. They do deploy, but it’s not a 1.0 presence like B-1B’s in Guam or a carrier in the Persian gulf. I think it because of the amount of aircraft we have, the maintenance requirements and all that jazz
i lived in okinawa and worked on kadena at the airfield for 3 years, the only time i ever saw raptors there was for air shows, but if you had intel that a Chinese attack was imminent im sure they would be there
F22 will never see air-to-air combat. It's American "flagship" and as you can see, whenever there is conflict, the F22s have always avoided it. Maybe to defend carrier groups or their border, but not a single F22 gonna die to defend a foreign nation, not even NATO. That's why whenever F22 land in Europe, it's giant news. Lol.
@@bradleynugent4991 actually it will be the opposition, if US know there is an attack coming, the F22 won't be there. you want to reserve your best fighter, not risk them in the opening when it is unclear what the situation is.
Hey Grim reaper, the j20 mod doesn’t work without the Su35 mod which was taken down, could you post the files for the mods you use on your website in the future?
Great video Cap!
Wow man your channel has exploded congratulations 👏🏼
You should upload the mission file so we can try our own hand at this. Awesome video btw, I love the wargames.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the initial wave of F35's to try and hook around the death-blob of J-10's and try and take out the Chinese AWACS first?
I wonder whether they have enough fuel for such a maneuver ...
@@nichtpeter9589 plus they'd also have to know in relative detail the number of fighters and formations in and surrounding said death blob. the whole point of this is its a time on target suprise attack with the coalition forces being mostly QRA
Wouldn't it make more sense for the J-20s to spearhead the strike group and take out American AWACS and tankers first? Actually before that, wouldn't it make more sense to neutralize all major nearby U.S. airbases with DF-17s and DF-21s before the massive air strike? But that wouldn't make it a very entertaining battle to watch.
There’s a super carrier that’s been hanging out there.
Great fun thanks Cap! 🤩
I love The F-15J's!👍
Can you please model an attack that includes the Chinese rocket forces? They are allegedly a big problem.
@52:57 lol - we had a high-30's ASVAB scorer in my Infantry training platoon. Mortar guy. Couldn't find a grid coordinate on a map and couldn't give you one for where he was. We had to tutor him. It's wild!
Looking at those google images of Kadena brings back some memories. We were stationed there 81-84. I absolutely loved it.
Great simulation. However i would assume that any Chinese attack with start with hybersonic cruise missiles - hard to intercept - to destroy the US airfields and on-ground aircraft first.
China actually has the world's largest ballistic missile force, they'd probably use those long before any attack from the air.
Hypersonics are very overrated and inaccurate
They aren’t hard to intercept if they have no cover, one F-35 plus 2 f-15 can use target link to take out 30 at once with no pressure
@@eq1373 Teach that to the US Navy
@Thomas Gardenhire If this were for real (god forbid), China would have neutralized all major nearby U.S. airbases with DF-17s and DF-21s before any air strike takes place. The J-20s would then go in first, taking out American AWACS and tankers. But that won't make it a very entertaining battle to watch.
Love the show but hate that UA-cam puts traitor Roger Stone’s political ad.
I hate that shit… Former Military here, that POS needs a firing squad.
Was stationed in Okinawa. Love seeing this.
RE: about the ASVAB. ALL BRANCHES in the US military only require a combined score of 36, each job within the respective branch has a different requirement. Some roles require 75 combined in addition to 80 for electronics, for example.
another tidbit- the scoring isn't absolute, ASVAB scoring is percentile in competition to everyone else. If you were in the top 20% of testers- you get a 75. if you are in the top 50% you get a 50. They do this because they don't want to completely overhaul the test every couple years, they just immediately disqualify the bottom 1/3 of all testers, and their high skill jobs are always taking the top 10 or 20% or so.
Hey Cap, Guys - is there any way to make blufor planes form up, instead of feeding them into the fight one at a time as they take off? That bit doesn't seem too realistic?? Enjoyed the vid though, as ever!
The AI in dcs is very difficult to do what you want, the only way to get something like that is if they all spawned in the air and we're in formation already.
As a Japanese American living in Tokyo, I was very curious about this set up, and I am so excited yet nervous at the same time. Hopefully this will remain fiction rather than reality for the time being.
Why are you nervous? When did China invade you? It's you and the USA who invaded China. You both failed. The USA failed in 1950's after we destroyed their army which attempted to invade China.
Me to I have a boy station in Okinawa and I'm on pins and needles but it I'm rooting for Taiwan that China will just back of but that is unlikely.
@Andrew Yoshiaki Ito You should not be nervous, because every single battle from this channel will have the American and Allies come out as the victor. And yes I agree hopefully this will remain as all fiction.
@@tiffanygrever8092 Taiwan will surrender. they have no will to fight, if they did, they would have 2 year conscription like South Korea. the fact that the government found it hard to convince the people to serve in peacetime, mean expecting the people to fight in wartime is unrealistic. US like to bark on Taiwan, but US knows Taiwan is a lost cause, US won't get involved because it will be afghanistan all over again. if the local has the will to fight, it is still possible, but if the local doesn't, american are not going to die for another country that expect other to die for them instead...
@@lagrangewei in a way I agree but it does seem like they have some will the thing is from what I hear there elites are in bed with the CCP so they are sitting ducks but if they get Taiwan then they will keep moving on okanowa.japan.the Philippines they won't stop.i really wish we would stop sending so much ad to Ukraine talk about a loss cause and it's weekend us.
congratulation for a successful battle
Awesome video gents - very entertaining!
Like most people I very much enjoy these fights and it’s good you’re revisiting them but I still see an issue for realism. You said it yourself Cap with the Chinese forces. It would take a long time to get these asset’s together & sorted. But what you’re missing is the US forces doing the same. The US & Japanese would’ve been watching the build up of Chinese assets for weeks & would’ve done exactly the same. Carrier’s & Japanese forces would’ve been ramped up & staged round the area with huge amounts of weapons & aircraft available as well as navy assets. I really can’t see the US & Japan being caught off guard so much that they have to rely on just what’s based on Okinawa. Having said that could DCS handle it all?
if this were real life, chinese airplanes would be wiped from the map. its def just a sim/game. nothing to do with realism.
There is a reason the US said they would keep their carrier groups away from Chinese medium-range anti-ship ballistic missiles during a conflict, however, they still have to deal with the long-range missiles because those ranges can reach Guam and Australia.
@@roostersideburns3440 In real life planes like J-10s would be destroyed from beyond their engagement range, it would be a repeat of the F-14s vs Saddams old MiGs where the Iraqis literally thought they were losing planes to mechanical failures. American missiles in DCS are less reliable and shorter range than the real life counterparts were literally 45 years ago
@@override367 J10 are not dated fighters, they are more advanced than F16. the scenario is unrealistic anyway, China has 3000 missiles that can hit the island from the mainland, those will disabled the base first before the air war even start. there is a reason why US is moving air asset away from Okinawa, they are just sitting duck there. it not like the planes are always ready for takeoff, at anyone time 1/3 of the fleet will be in service, that is 1/3 of the asset wipe out on opening. its not worth it to start a war with china without strategic depth.
Finally a correct outcome. I know it's VERY difficult in the simulator to get exact or correct results but well done.
I served in the USMC from 2005 - 2010, I had a near-perfect ASVAB of 95 and my GT was 130. Not all Marines are at 32, those are grunts/03-11 (infantry rifleman). Most MOSs have a larger requirement. There are plenty of smart grunts as well though those usually get promoted through the units. Simper Fi!
I scored perfect on the ASVAB and got 67 out of 70 on the Navy nuclear test - don't know what happened on three of those questions. I really didn't want to go in on the enlisted side - it's just that a recruiter kept pressuring me.
I love the little airborne cadence "tie em in a bow"
J20 at equivalent stealth as F35 is more than generous.
Yeah, it’s not realistic at all. But if you can beat that, you’re set
Chinese are not crazy enough to attack Okinawa while being outnumbered, they would attack with much greater numbers to be sure of the result of the attack, same thing for attacking a US carrier, they would attack with an overwellming advantage to be "sure" to destroy it.
Great work with designing these war games.
DCS is not yet fully updated, China now have FC-31 entries in service in late November 2022
The way I see it: one group taking their time to scramble makes sense because not everyone will be sitting in their jets ready to run.
Forces would be on alert as Chinese preparations would be detected days ahead of any actual strike. It is unlikely that the Chinese would achieve strategic surprise, although tactical surprise may be possible.
OK ------- Great Battle!!! Only the Airforce's last Red Flag drills have the F-35s and F-22s taking off first with Drop tanks that are dropped as soon as they are empty or just before reaching enemy dirty detection Range and going full Stealth... With the F-15s all taking off as Missile Trucks carrying 16+ missiles each with their Powerful radars Blaring for all to see for the initial launch locks. The F-22s Drop Tanks again before detection range and then go Super Cruise to quickly weave past the enemy fighters to take out the Enemy Awaaks and Bombers... With the F-15 Missile Trucks launching their Missiles in Mass, then turning around going After burner to Outrun the Masses of Chines Missiles Launched at them. While the F-35s take control of the F-15s missiles to Target the enemy In mass.. With each F-35 able to track and target over 30 aircraft at the same time after taking control to update the F-15s missiles to counter whatever the Chines Fighters do until the Missiles are locked onto their targets... No F-35s are ever seen to be even shot at while most of the F-15s are able to outrun the Masses of Chinese Missiles that had been launched toward them at maximum range, get home to refuel and rearm for the next attack.. While the F-22s fall on the Chinese Awaaks and Bombers before they can even get in range to launch their Missiles...
Sounds fine as long as you assume the PLAAF can't use the same strategy.
Fat Amy vs mighty dragons. I think we draw the short straw for the naming 🤔
The F-35 Aesa radar doesn't alert enemy aircraft of incoming missiles or radar because of its variable frequency made to trick sensors, it also has the ability to jam and spoof plane locations to trick enemy aircraft, and finally, it can take control of any aircraft's missiles as long as they're connected to the data link, thus providing basically the equivalent of a mesh wifi system. It allows the F-35 to fire from F-15s loaded to the gills with missiles
Just started watching. Exciting. Let's go USA / Japan! Question:If your defending this in real life, would you use the Marine upgraded Cobra gunships Ah1z? They can be armed with a few sidewinders. I mean I know they wouldn't do much, but would they still get deployed in such a scenario? My guess is no, they would save them.
In real life, this situation wouldn´t happen, because China would most likely strike all US airbases around china.
If there were more missiles and the base command didn't believe current assets could prevent the impacts, I believe the cobras would be deployed. If not for trying to throw a kitchen sink at the missiles, then just so that they don't explode on a pad.
@@LoisoPondohva Location of Okinawa is in the range of most Chinese missiles like DF-15, DF-17 and DF-21. If you do some research, you’re know that DF-17 is a Hypersonic Missile, currently the US do not have widely equipped and it’s impossible to be defeated by missile defense system.
@@sonaldosui8154 not sure what that has to do with what I said.
An assault on that base would require 100’s of aircraft were talking 1/3 of the Chinese Air Force plus we’d know and a carrier would be present additional support ships and potentially QRA pre scrambling to defend Okinawa and if we knew we might add more AD
This. China wouldn't declare war on both the US and Japan in the same day and only attack with fewer aircraft than the local garrison. It would be hundreds of planes, the US would see it coming and move a CSG to the island, which would inevitably lead China to do the same.
US is close to laser defenses, and has access to Iron Dome too.
@@92HazelMocha we’d send another CSG Japan would send their fleet. Chinese CSG’s have never been tested we have more and we would reorient the Atlantic fleet to the pacific as well and the defender has the advantage and China would lose
@@Mystical922 China probably wouldn't even bother tbh. Okinawa isn't really a prime target, especially if the US has a CSG there.
Good stuff. It went about how I thought too.
Pitbulls: They gonna bite you instead for doing that. You use a bite stick (wodden screwdriver thing) to break a pitbulls bite.
Army veteran here, got 87 on the ASVAB, the Army joke always was "I was going to join the marines but I scored too high on the asvab" haha
I heard it's also required to like the taste of crayons
@@92HazelMocha Red is their favorite flavor.
Marines use F35Bs
They did in this
They probably have trouble with f-35b mod so they ran F-35A for stability
I scored in the top 98% on the ASVAB test. The Recruiter said I could probably get in anywhere any branch.
Hey Cap, love the Sim videos mate.
Can I just ask for one change with the way you set up defences. There are never all aircraft at combat readiness at the same time. Out of 12 f-35 you'd likely have about 60% availability giving only 7/8 aircraft to defend. Doesn't really change the offensive size as they'd plan around all aircraft being available with probably even a few not making it all the way to the attack.
You can easily google aircraft availability rates for different types, the older aircraft are often below 50% available.
Keep up the good work mate.
Why would the chinese send so few aircrafts to Okinawa? Why would they not use more j20s? Why would they not pummel Okinawa with df series missiles, including the df17 hypersonic missiles, from land from the get go? Why would they not position their aircraft carriers for added power? Where are the j16d EW planes? Why would they send less 5th Gen j20s than the US have F35s in Japan? Hmmm
Chinese Dong-Feng series missiles fall under the category of strategic missile forces. Unfortunately, those are mostly launched from a back of a truck and we know where their bases and where their launch points are. Wikipedia has a pretty good list although for more detail check out "Mapping the PLA Rocket Force"
If those massive 10x10 and 12x12 trucks started moving, it be easily be caught by satellites and is potentially targeted by pre-emptive strike.
Also unless China is dumb, they would use their expensive Dong-Fengs for even more strategically important target like Guam.
@@miraphycs7377 H6s have been seen carrying air launched ballistic missiles, its concievable that a few of those KD20s could be swapped out for a hypersonic missile or two.
@@hughmungus2760 H6 can only carry one ALBM
@@miraphycs7377 thats more than enough cause massive headaches for defenders given how bad patriots are at stopping hypersonic targets at low altitudes.
@@hughmungus2760 and China's best SAM is the POS and even worse S-400. Those submarine launched Tomahawk pre-emptive strikes will go through as well.
DCS's model for PL15 missiles is currently heavily flawed. Those are not Chinese equivalent to meteor missiles: PL-15 have conventional propulsion and no terminal added propulsion that increase the maneuverability close to the target. Real range based on the size of the missile is estimated at 140-150 km, so barely more than meteor but less accurate.
Meteor missiles are something else the ability to selectively target cockpit/engine/etc takes a crazy level of resolution/accuracy for any sensor let alone such a small disposable seeker not to mention the agility to make those adjustments.
From what ive been told, the specs have been hyped on most of the Chinese weapons and most of their missiles fall out of the sky...
or dont track
@@Evocati-Augusti that's not what the pentagon says about the pl15
Why are the j11B's and j10s again not carrying the pl15s and why are we using the j10A as opposed to the J10C. Totally not the same planes actually. I also don't see any of the DF series missiles including the df17 hypersonic model.
That was a lot of fun to watch
GR commentary is Legendary !!!!
SUCCESS 🇯🇵🇺🇲
You need the almost released AIM 260..Has a top speed of Mach 5....very well done boyz.
Long now in its testing regime. Will be in the fleet fairly quickly.
@@warbuzzard7167 Outstanding!
What software are they using? I just discovered this channel and it's got me hooked
That was exceptionally done.
I’m not sure the PLAAF would get to violate Taiwan’s Air Space like that.
@@xlZENlx well currently they haven't flown directly over Taiwan unlike in the vid
It’s definitely something worth thinking about: Assuming a Chinese attack on Japan that the US would be involved in (both as defenders & targets) would the Taiwanese jump in to help, assuming as they would have to that it would initiate a state of open, active warfare with the mainland? Would the US ask them to help, or request that they stay out of it to limit the number of “fronts?” As it stands, the PLAN is incapable of projecting force in any manner necessary to conduct amphibious operations - not at Taiwan and *certainly* not to the Japanese home islands, so any attacks would be conducted by the PLA air & missile forces. One imagines that they’d just steer clear of Taiwan’s airspace (not including the areas they routinely probe, but speaking of directly overflying the islands, which have significant SAM defenses) to avoid the question, but then again an attack on Japan is perhaps MORE insane than an attack on Taiwan, so we have to chuck common sense out the window.
Assuming it doesn’t just immediately go nuclear, that leaves the two considerations: Would Taiwan intervene to protect Japan & by proxy, the U.S. and / or would the Americans ask for Taiwanese assistance or ask the Taiwanese to stay out of it?
I honestly can’t say. You’d have to imagine that the only reason for China to attack Japan would be to incapacitate Taiwan’s local allies in preparation for an attack on Taiwan, but at the same time, it just doesn’t make much sense to draw 3 nations into a war when your ultimate goal is only to defeat one, which is not (formally) allied with the other two - especially considering that those other two are arguably the strongest powers on the Pacific Rim. Then again, attempting to invade or incapacitate Taiwan while leaving the broader US coalition intact (especially at current PLA capabilities & considering China’s geopolitical situation Re: Economics, logistics, international relations etc) is the height of folly bordering on madness. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible, of course, history is proof enough of that. Countries do stupid shit all the time.
Yeah, I guess I’m just wondering if Taiwan would let it slide - because there are relatively good reasons for them to do so, including that the US just straight-up TOLD them to.
F-35 has come a long way! Lol in real life and in DCS👍👍
So, what experience level do you require to get in on this? Expert only or a newbie would have a chance to learn up and join in eventually?
Priceless banner between you old chaps.
Chinese will never attack without overwhelming numbers or advantage it can exploit. Otherwise fun video :) Thank you for the effort.
These scenarios are tainted by design, PC participation as well as constant intel updates from Grim pretty much assures whatever outcome you want short of the scenarios where PC's are greatly outnumbered.
That and the J-20's doing nothing at all but flying straight forward means the AI here never had a shot.
It's allso highly tainted by the fact that the F-15s and AI F-35s still alive couldn't use their remaining missiles to mop up the SAMs
Also as for grim giving intel, he didn't start giving constant intel untill they engaged the cruise missiles. The scraps of intel he gave before could very reasonably be given by AWACS, that is literally their jobs, but soemthing that can't do as well in DCS, and the same for finding the missiles. Heck the SAM sites could see the misisles so even ground radar would be able to vector in all the fighters at that point. It's not precedure to do that but when you have 80 cruise missiles with your name on them you say fuck procedure
@@d.thieud.1056 It doesn't matter, when you have a gods eye awareness of everything that is going on you'd have to be a 50 IQ chimp to lose, and the AI is at a disadvantage already just due to being AI.
The way to do a proper sim is to set both sides to AI and run it without outside interference.
Glad to see this revisited! Lag was a major problem. I wonder what you're using for server specs.
@@TeenTeenFpv Makes sense, thank you. I am getting into hosting my own server using some server hardware of my own and was curious.
@@TeenTeenFpv not yet, as I am still new to DCS as a whole. Have enjoyed the wargames playlist so far!
Great friggin fight!!! Lot of SAR Helos doing some heavy work now!