Really nice interpretations! How was the defence against javlines in the two-handed grip? Our last sparring with 2-handed spears: ua-cam.com/video/vHM94jJgwVE/v-deo.html
Well, Manciolino doesn't write about it, but you could certainly employ the point down parry on both sides. The circular parry to your right works nicely as well though :)
Like the way of strapping the rotella to the arm in the second play. 1+1>2 (in terms of weapons and upper limbs) with defending and attacking merged together.
So I've spent Corona year practicing the various Bolognese Partisan and Rotella plays and I've found some weaknesses with the overhand position. I know they were deriving that from the Greek art, but I have some other words on that, but I believe the overhand position to be far inferior to the underhand position. Of course as I haven't gotten a chance to play these with anyone, I may be wrong but in my solo drilling, I have been able to do every play (or something similar enough) from the under hand. I love seeing more people practicing partisan, try the plays from the underhand and let me know what you think.
Well, Marozzo's section on Rotella & Partisan is pretty similar to Manciolino and he specifically mentions a switch to an underhand position (should be his 7th part), which he finds quite useful as well, but mostly for a two-handed grip. So I think the sources are quite clear on what they prefer. Personally I play with spear and shield since a couple of years now (technique- and freeplay) and I can certainly confirm that an underhand position feels way more comfortable at first. It's super close to thrusting with a sword. With time, I think overhand is actually superior since the Punta Riversa is such a quick and valuable option as well as the powerful throw. It's pretty rare that I find myself in an one-handed underhand position in sparring these days.
@@SchildwachePotsdam I feel like I lose range in the overhand and that I'm very exposed. To be fair I don't like most high guards for the same reason. Another question, what spear heads are you using?
@@tommyss4l over Hand is especialy good in Formation. More powerfull, and if the enemy closes in you can still use it. This way you also dont open up your armpit. Try to flex the spearpoint forward when thrusting, this allow3s you to hold it further at the end. Dont use it as a static lance, or Pike.
Ooh, very good. Though I’m curious, why Manciolino over Marozzo? Not that I’m complaining, it’s the first Bolognese source I read. Also, glad to see these finally done with a partner! (Also also, to anyone who wants to try polearm sparring but doesn’t want/can’t afford buying a dedicated spear or head, you can buy any wooden dowel of sufficient hardness (hickory, ash, or oak) and place a cut-down pool noodle at the end, making sure there is enough excess it can still flex. But of course, please exercise extreme caution.)
Manciolino was the first Bolognese source I worked through as well, but the main reason was it's shortness. I knew I could record everything within one session, which are still hard to organize over here. But well, we take, what we can get :) Good tip on the pool noodle as well, just be careful like you said with thrusts to the head. Energy transfer can be quite high...
This is awesome stuff! I always asked myself how a hoplite in the antiquity would have fought but other than vases, there is very little to be found. Do you think applying this to a hoplon & spear would be reasonable?
I would guess the renaissance authors tried to mimic these fighting styles as well. The only difference between them and us being, that they actually knew how "real" fighting would look like as these arms were still in use. So yeah, probably not a bad data point for us nowadays :)
@@ajithsidhu7183 Do you wanted to say: "Wouldn't an overhand grip be better?" Here's what Ive heard from dagger experts and to which I can agree; The overhand/point up grip gives more reach and easier cutting, which is why it is generally taught today, but back then, the context was quite different: people wore a lot of layers of linen and wool, which isn't as easy to cut than modern synthetic or cotton clothing, so thrusting was generally preferred. Furtermore, some daggers were designed for anti-armour combat and were basically thick steel rods with no cutting edge, to have power against the mail armour between the plates. Additionnally, while today people might get scared away rather easily after a deep enough cut, it might have been much harsher in the late medieval/Renaissance period; you wanted to kill your opponent, not just cut him, and thrusting, giving internal wounds has always been more lethal than cuts. A thing I'd add is that today, we are so obsesssed with reach, because in sportive contexts,this gives a lot of advantage to "snipe" a point. Back then, they wold immediately try to rush in and take control of the enemy dagger hand to protect themselves. And as most people knew at least some wrestling, fighting with daggers would quickly evolve to a more dangerous form of close quarter combat, compared to what you see today which looks a bit more like a sort of "swordfighting.with-a-knife".
@@Maciliachris there are actually tons of dpictions of fighters holding the spear further back in a 3 finger (throwing) grip, the trick is to not use a static ice pick grip.
@@SchildwachePotsdam We will have to wait till the end of the Pandemic I believe. We don't have enough spears and shields so usually we exchange them during the training, which is forbidden atm :(
Isn’t the advantage of fighting with a spear that it has more reach than a sword? If you’re holding it in the middle it seems to negate that and also add a cumbersome weight behind you. It seems like it would be easier to use a long sword if you’ve also got one hand gripping a shield. I must be wrong but I’d love to know why?
That was actually a question we asked ourselves at the beginning. Why are so many sources (both in text and images) focused on the overhand grip? Our current answer is throwing completely changes the game in the first place 😉 you can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/HrlboQTHWWo/v-deo.html
I've been doing Giacomo di Grassi style partisan fencing and di Grassi (lots of early and later text say much the same thing) puts a lot of focus on holding the partisan or spear around the middle. the length out the back helps you in being able to move the partisan/spear around and parry or defend your self with it. If you hold it to far back it's really easy for people to parry it or just take it off you (as it's a huge lever for them) or such has been my experience of people holding it not around the middle (same with the sort of snooker pocky thing that people seem to think is grate with a spear). I find it really interesting personally.
@@SchildwachePotsdam not trying to argue, just a reflection. Historically you dont always fought with people equipped with the same weaponry and same style, I can see booth advantages and disadvantages of this grip, i personalle find the second style more efficient in using the whole length of the partesan as you can launch into very long trusts from that position and still be able to cover your body with the shield.
Excellent demonstration as usual! I really adore the vibrant colors on all the shields, too!
Thank you!
"Also, wear a cup. PLEASE."
I speak from experience when I say that I agree :S
Yup, with spears you actually need very little safety equipment, but a cup is definitely mandatory!
Really nice interpretations! How was the defence against javlines in the two-handed grip?
Our last sparring with 2-handed spears: ua-cam.com/video/vHM94jJgwVE/v-deo.html
Well, Manciolino doesn't write about it, but you could certainly employ the point down parry on both sides. The circular parry to your right works nicely as well though :)
I have never tried spear before it dose look appealing you make it easy to follow, Thank you.
You're welcome :) We are glad, that it's useful!
Very nice educative video. :)
Thank you! :)
beautiful and well demonstrated
Thank you 😊
Like the way of strapping the rotella to the arm in the second play.
1+1>2 (in terms of weapons and upper limbs) with defending and attacking merged together.
Great stuff! I'm just getting started with Bolognese and I do love me some partisan!
Great video thanks for showing this ancient fighting technique
You are very welcome!
Great video!
If it is allowed again, we will do some rotella work too, but we will do it with rapier and shield first.
Nice, if we are allowed to get a bit closer again, we'll take a shot at sword and rotella (& imbracciatura) as well :)
@@SchildwachePotsdam and some day east and west aka Potsdam and Aachen will meet for some fun with it 👍
@@OliverJanseps sounds like a plan!
Thank yoy very much indeed. There's a lot to learn from your interpretation.
Thank you for the warm words :)
So I've spent Corona year practicing the various Bolognese Partisan and Rotella plays and I've found some weaknesses with the overhand position. I know they were deriving that from the Greek art, but I have some other words on that, but I believe the overhand position to be far inferior to the underhand position. Of course as I haven't gotten a chance to play these with anyone, I may be wrong but in my solo drilling, I have been able to do every play (or something similar enough) from the under hand.
I love seeing more people practicing partisan, try the plays from the underhand and let me know what you think.
Well, Marozzo's section on Rotella & Partisan is pretty similar to Manciolino and he specifically mentions a switch to an underhand position (should be his 7th part), which he finds quite useful as well, but mostly for a two-handed grip. So I think the sources are quite clear on what they prefer.
Personally I play with spear and shield since a couple of years now (technique- and freeplay) and I can certainly confirm that an underhand position feels way more comfortable at first. It's super close to thrusting with a sword.
With time, I think overhand is actually superior since the Punta Riversa is such a quick and valuable option as well as the powerful throw. It's pretty rare that I find myself in an one-handed underhand position in sparring these days.
@@SchildwachePotsdam I feel like I lose range in the overhand and that I'm very exposed. To be fair I don't like most high guards for the same reason.
Another question, what spear heads are you using?
@@tommyss4l Our trainers are from Cold Steel. :)
@@SchildwachePotsdam I thought so, that's what I'm using now too.
@@tommyss4l over Hand is especialy good in Formation. More powerfull, and if the enemy closes in you can still use it. This way you also dont open up your armpit. Try to flex the spearpoint forward when thrusting, this allow3s you to hold it further at the end. Dont use it as a static lance, or Pike.
Ooh, very good. Though I’m curious, why Manciolino over Marozzo? Not that I’m complaining, it’s the first Bolognese source I read.
Also, glad to see these finally done with a partner!
(Also also, to anyone who wants to try polearm sparring but doesn’t want/can’t afford buying a dedicated spear or head, you can buy any wooden dowel of sufficient hardness (hickory, ash, or oak) and place a cut-down pool noodle at the end, making sure there is enough excess it can still flex. But of course, please exercise extreme caution.)
Manciolino was the first Bolognese source I worked through as well, but the main reason was it's shortness. I knew I could record everything within one session, which are still hard to organize over here. But well, we take, what we can get :)
Good tip on the pool noodle as well, just be careful like you said with thrusts to the head. Energy transfer can be quite high...
Gut gemacht 👍
Dankeschön!
This is awesome stuff! I always asked myself how a hoplite in the antiquity would have fought but other than vases, there is very little to be found. Do you think applying this to a hoplon & spear would be reasonable?
I would guess the renaissance authors tried to mimic these fighting styles as well. The only difference between them and us being, that they actually knew how "real" fighting would look like as these arms were still in use. So yeah, probably not a bad data point for us nowadays :)
@@SchildwachePotsdam why in europe the grip is alot underhand like this rather than over hand even for daggers?
@@SchildwachePotsdam wouldn't a underhand grip be better
@@ajithsidhu7183 Do you wanted to say: "Wouldn't an overhand grip be better?"
Here's what Ive heard from dagger experts and to which I can agree;
The overhand/point up grip gives more reach and easier cutting, which is why it is generally taught today, but back then, the context was quite different: people wore a lot of layers of linen and wool, which isn't as easy to cut than modern synthetic or cotton clothing, so thrusting was generally preferred. Furtermore, some daggers were designed for anti-armour combat and were basically thick steel rods with no cutting edge, to have power against the mail armour between the plates.
Additionnally, while today people might get scared away rather easily after a deep enough cut, it might have been much harsher in the late medieval/Renaissance period; you wanted to kill your opponent, not just cut him, and thrusting, giving internal wounds has always been more lethal than cuts.
A thing I'd add is that today, we are so obsesssed with reach, because in sportive contexts,this gives a lot of advantage to "snipe" a point. Back then, they wold immediately try to rush in and take control of the enemy dagger hand to protect themselves. And as most people knew at least some wrestling, fighting with daggers would quickly evolve to a more dangerous form of close quarter combat, compared to what you see today which looks a bit more like a sort of "swordfighting.with-a-knife".
@@Maciliachris there are actually tons of dpictions of fighters holding the spear further back in a 3 finger (throwing) grip, the trick is to not use a static ice pick grip.
Interesting! I'm looking forward to being able to test it :)
Nice, let me know whar you think!
@@SchildwachePotsdam We will have to wait till the end of the Pandemic I believe. We don't have enough spears and shields so usually we exchange them during the training, which is forbidden atm :(
Great interpretation! Though, now I'm jealous of those rotelle!
Thanks! There will be a video on how to make/get a rotella coming up in the next weeks =)
This is quite an array of shields in the background.
Has Stephan built them all?
Yup :) There will be an upcoming video on different options for Rotella in the future
@@SchildwachePotsdam looking forward to it
Isn’t the advantage of fighting with a spear that it has more reach than a sword? If you’re holding it in the middle it seems to negate that and also add a cumbersome weight behind you. It seems like it would be easier to use a long sword if you’ve also got one hand gripping a shield. I must be wrong but I’d love to know why?
That was actually a question we asked ourselves at the beginning. Why are so many sources (both in text and images) focused on the overhand grip? Our current answer is throwing completely changes the game in the first place 😉 you can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/HrlboQTHWWo/v-deo.html
I've been doing Giacomo di Grassi style partisan fencing and di Grassi (lots of early and later text say much the same thing) puts a lot of focus on holding the partisan or spear around the middle. the length out the back helps you in being able to move the partisan/spear around and parry or defend your self with it. If you hold it to far back it's really easy for people to parry it or just take it off you (as it's a huge lever for them) or such has been my experience of people holding it not around the middle (same with the sort of snooker pocky thing that people seem to think is grate with a spear). I find it really interesting personally.
why weren't they holding the spears point upwards?
Our spear fighting playlist:
ua-cam.com/play/PLRDL6wPnRyPjo37msTX7hvP6DWpr49nBT.html
Ich brauche so einen Schild!
It seems a bit clumsy, isn't better to drop the shield and fight with two hands on the spear without the shield weight?
That depends on the context. In a duel you might very well opt to do so 😉
the advantage of a long weapon such as this is halved with this reversed grip :/
Pretty much all historical sources say differently 😉
@@SchildwachePotsdam not trying to argue, just a reflection. Historically you dont always fought with people equipped with the same weaponry and same style, I can see booth advantages and disadvantages of this grip, i personalle find the second style more efficient in using the whole length of the partesan as you can launch into very long trusts from that position and still be able to cover your body with the shield.
HahA 재미있다!
감사합니다!