Imagine if the USAF chose the F-22 and the navy chose the F-23. It would be similar to the F-15 and F-14 situation - each service having one of the best aircraft in the world optimised for their specific needs.
@@colten1825 Nobody was talking about YF-23 for carrier operations. The next-gen Super Tomcat would have covered that role and would be an operational game-changer if operating today . Whereas, the would-be F-23 assembly line today if it was the more prudent model selected back then would probably be producing at least a couple different evolved model specific types still today. case closed ✌
@@donkoh5738 F-14 had impressive capability for the time but it is a giant hunk of junk. Expensive, heavy swing wing mechanisms, compressor stall issues, lack of AMRAAM support, and more; the tomcat was a hangar queen, with extremely complicated maintenance. Plus, it was fucking HUGE for the boat. roughly 65x65 feet when fully opened.
the YF-23 is my favorite warplane of all time (even if it did not serve in any wars), everything about it is beautiful! I believe that the lessons learned from the YF-23 will inspire designs of future aircraft of America and it's allies, perhaps even a modernized YF-23 will come into service one day as a 6th generation fighter!
I think Northrop learned their lessons with the B-2. That's why the B-21 is on schedule. I feel pretty certain that the F-23 would have been on time and on budget (or at least pretty close) just because of the lessons that Northrop had already learned. But that's hindsight 20/20, and the Raptor is a kick butt machine of death. Honestly, America won in that contest.
With regards to the B2, there was no lesson for Northrup/Hughes/Motorola to learn....the program was cut to just a fraction of what was initially ordered and therefor, per the contract (like all DoD contracts), if you reduce the number of aircraft ordered, the price per aircraft goes up..... plus, the B2 was also an integrated R&D program with every revision (tech wise) requested and approved by the USAF..... The B2 (pieces) were actually built in Pico Rivera (assembled in Palmdale) and Hughes Aircraft had a R&D facility at that site as they developed/transitioned new/existing tech onto the planes as they were being built........ I could go on more about why the B21 is being funded but you would cringe!!!!!!!
Some of the things lobbed at Northrop at the time, could be said about LM now; however, factoring in both companies missteps, and bungles, at the end of the day they do manage to meet the required metrics. Not gonna get into things that keep dogging the F-35, but its capabilities keep expanding and improving. Basically, I am a YF-23 fan, rooted for it when I learned of the program originally. At the end of the day though, the F-22 doesn't disappoint and has served the Air Force well. So this is just an emotional decision . . . YF-23 hell yeah!!!
Not to mention the thing is amazingly beautiful! There goes the old adage, if it looks right…it doesn’t get the contract! YF-22 watered the Air Farce’s eyes with high AOA maneuvers & genuine thrust vectoring. The Navy was very unhappy with Northrip because of their failed stealth attack jet. I really feel it would have been a superior fighter. Ah well.
I preferred the YF-23 over the F-22 in the ATF competition, but honestly I preferred the X-35 over the X-32 in the JSF program. Fair disclosure: I'm somewhat biased by income source to prefer the 23 and the 32.
There's an interesting video on Mover's channel talking with the ATF program head, he mentioned how he took pains to ensure that whichever plane was chosen, all the basics that the Air Force wanted would be fulfilled, regardless of Pentagon politicking. So really, any benefits of one platform over the other were just bonus points on top of the critical requirements, and the YF-23 would probably have performed admirably as well. Don't sell your opinion short!
I'd actually like to see a larger version of the YF-23 that could take over the role of the F-111. That mid range tactical strike hasn't been replaced, well only about 80% replaced with the F-15E.
I kind of doubt anyone here has seen it, but the anime "Macross Plus" was inspired by this competition. The amazing thing is that the 23 was so good if they started producing it now (not a bad idea considering China), it would still be at the top of the food chain along with the 22. I remember hearing some speculation a while back that Japan had been considering buying the rights to build the 23, obviously nothing came of that. I honestly think given the world climate in 2021, bringing back the 23 as a production fighter would be a very good tactical choice.
I agree. The majority of the research and development is already finished. Sure, they could refine a few things here and there and modify and upgrade anything else that could further improve its capabilities. It was designed WAY back in ‘92 after all.. basically, considering it’s highly capable design, most of the work has already been done, they should seriously consider looking into what an updated overall cost per unit would be today if they produced, say, 300 units vs what it would cost to start a whole new fighter program from scratch that would need to fulfill the same requirements of what the f-23 is capable of already doing according to its ‘92 prototype. I would imagine, even if you added in the costs of modifying the original design to incorporate various modifications to improve on the original, it would still end up being an overall bargain when compared with the typical disgustingly bloated costs associated with military projects. I would honestly love to see a comparison of the original ‘92 capabilities vs a modernized F-23 that has had various improvements afforded by the advancement of technology over the last nearly 30 years!! However, despite how awesome this aircraft was, it’s completely outclassed by what they created less than 10 years ago, but chances are those “won’t exist” for at least another 20 years or so.
Weird how Macross predicted how the ATF program would play out. Just like the F-22 in real life, while the YF-19 won the competition for the UN Spacy's new mainstay variable fighter, the Excalibur would only be procured in limited numbers. And just like the Eagle which the Raptor was supposed to replace, production of the old VF-17 Nightmare (as the VF-171). would outlive that of the VF-19
@@kidwajagstang you're right it would be a bargain to build it now since they know what the airframe can do. Give it the same computer system as the F-35 and it should fit right in.
Another thing that didn't help the yf23 was the fact that the Air Force was still royally pissed at Northrop for the snowballing cost of the b-2 spirit and felt they couldn't trust them to deliver the YF 23 on budget even though the costs of the F-22 snowballed out of control to the I watering 182 million per plane cost of the raptor
To be fair, the blame for that lays at the feet of congress. They cut procurement numbers, which increased unit price, which was used as an excuse to further cut procurement numbers, which further increased unit price, which was used as a rationale to further cut procurement numbers... ad infinitum, until a $500 million dollar bomber became a specialty item with only 20 built, each one having to contain more and more of the full program cost, at 2.5 billion apiece. This has happened to other military hardware programs, but the B-2 is a textbook example of the problem. For the USAF to be pissed at Northrup over it is dumb. This is why it was a really big deal when the previous administration negotiated & placed a bulk order for nearly 500 F-35's, cash up front. Notice the price per unit dropped about 20% overnight? Instead of rising every year? If congress had any financial sense, at all, there wouldn't be much national debt. Of course at this point the debt kinda fuels itself, like an upside down retirement account.
As the US cuts the numbers of planes they want (after the proposal is determined) then the costs skyrocket as it is no longer spread out over a larger production.
@@TheZoePath Lol I just thought of an edit that would be better "... built in secret and deployed 6 months after the F-22, but they're so stealthy and lethal no one outside USAF pilots has ever seen one on radar or in visible range" I guess we'll never know
From what I remember, the f-22 was actually outfitted with the yf-23’s avionics after Lockheed won the bid. At some point around the 7:00-7:30 mark you said the YF-22 had superior avionics when I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the case..
@@piotrd.4850 That's the weirdest part of the competition IMO. YF-23 was more-or-less ready to fly as it was designed. YF-22 was NOTHING like the f-22. The design had so many issues that by the time they were done working them out, they'd basically designed an entirely new airframe.
@@mrbigberd "YF-23 was more-or-less ready to fly as it was designed" Apparently this was not the case. If it were NG would have done a more thorough demonstration of the -23's capabilities. The eventual Raptor was a marginally better aircraft, but LM did a way better job of selling their product than NG did with theirs.
I was hoping the YF-23 would win the ATF at the time. So sad that the US can create the 2 best fighter planes in the world, and then only build one of them-- I wish they could build both, like if maybe the Navy could pick it up! Seems like such a sad waste of technology :(
Back then , the name of the Game was close combat, (dog fighting) and the F22 suit that particular mission to a T. And China wasn't much of a threat 30 years ago.
Yup. They should have greenlit both for one fully finished production machine to have another flyoff. IMO the same should have been done for the X32. The proposed changes Boeing had in the pipe would have been something to see.
I’m sure the modifications needed to make them carrier capable would have been substantially expensive and offer less of a performance to make it feasible. There were attempts to look into bringing both the F15 and the F22 to The Fleet. Imagine these things being the true replacement to the Tomcat
Thank you, I was in high school during all this out at Edwards. You reported this story how I remember it and the stories you heard from those on both teams.
Northrop's YF-23 prototype prioritized survivability over super-manueverability. They did this by installing exhaust panels in the nuzzle which then significantly reduced the aircraft's Infrared signature. In turn it is less agile than the raptor due to the YF-23 not having thrust vector control. Also, the unconventional airframe of the YF-23 was expected to be harder and more expensive to maintain and operate than the YF-22; all the more reason for USAF to choose the latter.
Thanks, for the follow-up video. I still love the YF-23 Black Widow. I was such a visually stunning aircraft. The F-22's thrust vectoring is impressive I saw one (F-22) at an airshow over Lake Michigan. The YF-23 is my favorite fighter in Ace Combat. Another reason why the F-22 beat out the YF-23 it was far too unconventional looking.
Very true the YF-23 was (and is) a beautiful aircraft! I’ve seen PAV-2 at the Western Museum of Flight. One thing not often mentioned is the engine nacelles are over-large because the plane was designed with thrust reversers, which requirement was cancelled.
@@theodorethompson4536 I love the A-10 warthog. That Aircraft is the reason why I wanted the Cobra Rattler as a kid. It may be an ugly aircraft but it's a hell of a machine.. Ever since I looked down the barrel of one at an Airshow I was Is super impressed. The C-130 gunship Is mainly built as a cargo transport just shows you it shows you how Ingenuitive the United States is in our Is air power surpasses every Other military power.
@@nazz2406 no I'm a marine. We do appreciate all the things you blow up. But I digress. We love the hog and the spooky. The operators of those 2 platforms have saved the lives of my men and myself. The 10 thousand plus crowd playing video games up front qe appreciate you as well. Sir.
The 23 was not quite ready for production but given the opportunity to improve it it would have been the best interceptor fighter in the world. Remember the 23 went from clean sheet of paper to flying in 52 months.
The lessons learnt would be crucial for the longer range and increase stealth in the NGAD program. Some are already saying that the new fighter will have a design similar to the YF 23.
Listen, this is first-rate content. Every word of this presentation is well placed. Aside from the arguments in the script, the footage is simply mesmerizing. I felt like I was watching 60-Minutes for Defense Technology. Goodness. Well done. Some of those shots (like the vector nozzles moving) I thought: 'Ooh! Are we supposed to be seeing this?'
I visited NASA Dryden in 1998 and my jaw dropped when I saw the grey YF23 sad, lonely, canopy covered, brown with dust, parked out over the other side of the taxiway. The scientist I was visiting was very adamant that the YF23 was better than the YF22 in almost every way, but politics intervened and it was Lockheed's turn to get the fighter contract. This is confirmed in the video at 8:50.
Something I remember hearing from a source I knew, is that not only did the 23 have that navy-friendly fuel capacity.. she also had the strengthened gears and catapult capability to operate off a Carrier.
FWIW, Insider facts and scuttlebutt: YF-23 first flight was "wheels up". That normally doesn't happen. Usually, first test flight keeps the wheels down, just in case. However, the 22 first flight was wheels-down and actually had to make an emergency landing on the dry lake bed. YF-23, like the F-20 that competed with F-16 (Some National Guard units used a lawn dart for an F-16 desk model) was a breeze to maintain. F-22, like the F-16, not so much. Ground crews loved the YF-23 just as they had the earlier F-20 for their respective superior maintenance design. They grumbled about the difficulty servicing the F-22. YF-23, first to fly super-cruise. Also, the rumor was the test pilots preferred YF-23 to the 22.
i like how aircraft come into service and when the first one is delivered they are allready looking for something better. That reminds me the F22 is pretty old allready, when can we see its replacement, because we know they are allready working on it
the head of the ATF program actually said as much, that Northrop was a company of engineers that hired some managers, and Lockheed was a company of managers that hired some engineers
I love the look of the YF-23 and the name was perfect (though "Spectre" would have worked, too, considering the second prototype was called the Gray Ghost) and I was rooting for it in the fly-off. However, speculation that the navy would pick it up is a non-starter. That airframe is just HUGE, and the Navy has to consider how many it can stage on its carrier platforms. The F-22 is a kick-butt piece of hardware, but I wouldn't cry if they dusted off the YF-23, did some tweaks to the tech, and maybe added thrust vectoring to it for a gen 5.5? Hmmm.....
How do you add thrust vectoring to the low IR heat absorbing trenches though? Any directional nozzels retro fitted at the back would just light it up, and who needs thrust vectoring anyway? The age of dogfighting is sadly over, otherwise you wouldn't be bothering with stealth in the first place, and IR stealth is the new battle ground which the 23 has in spades over the 22. But yes, totally agree, i think the 6th gen fighters will take a lot from the 23
Damn! They are both sweet, beautiful planes. It would be like having to choose between Pamela Anderson from her Baywatch days, and Shania Twain when she came out with her first album. 🤔
Both stunning aircraft. I've no idea how the procurement process works, but it should come down to more than whoever has the best sales pitch - that's a ridiculous way to look at national defence.
The F23 was faster and stealthier. The F22 more agile. The AF chose the F22 because it was less risky and quite frankly LM had better Washington connections. Also Northrop already had it's hands full with the B2 bomber
It was far more in-depth than has ever been reported in the open. YF-23 represented greater risk because windscreens kept cracking during supersonic tests. Weapons bay couldn't carry much and had no solution demonstrated for storage and ejection/separation. The flight control system had double the amount of actuators to make the wings thinner/no bulbous fairings for full power actuators. The intake geometry and boundary layer control mechanisms didn't allow it to achieve its maximum propulsive potential, along with the windscreens failing. Neither of the YF-23 PAVs went Mach 2 as a result. They could have done so if those issues were resolved, but that required more RDT&E while YF-22 PAV1 already easily broke Mach 2, and both could carry and separate weapons. Most of the comments I've seen are opposite of what happened during DEMVAL.
The F-23 had its exhaust nozzles deeply set in troughs lined with ceramic heat tiles. This drastically lowered its infrared signature over the conventionally-placed nozzles of the F-22.
I think no matter the somewhat equal abilities between the two airframes at the time the f22 looked so sexy . It was like the super model of the early 2000s.
Northrop's YF-17, the actual prototype for the F/A-18 (Northrop won a three hundred million suit against McDonnell Aircraft for breach of contract), already had the "super cruise" capability of breaking the sound barrier without afterburner, and it had afterburner and the ability to fly straight up and accelerate. A generation of technology was scrapped for politics, as for the superior F-23, and with ignoring of the F-20 which would still be competitive today as a cheap and inexpensive to maintain trainer.
The YF-23 would have manuevers similar to F-35. The Black Widow is best used as a strike fighter. The Raptor is an air superiority fighter, designed to kill another fighter in both BVR and WVR.
As I remember it, it was after McDonnell Douglas lost its bid for the JSF, what later became the F-35, that they threw in the towel and merged with Boeing.
The FX16 competed against the FX17 and won the competition. However the Navy did not like the FX16's single engine and later reserected the FX17 as the twin engine F18 -- so both designs ended up being built.
I served many years in the Marine Corps. I can absolutely verify that Congress when it comes to approving weapon systems is fascinated by bells and whistles. The fancier button, the more likely they are to push it. I honestly believe it would not have mattered if the YF 23 would have beaten the YF22 in every single respect but did not have thrust vectoring , they would have still gone with the YF22.
YF-23 cracked several windscreens in supersonic tests, so it never exceeded Mach 1.82 if I recall the graphs correctly. It also had problems with the intakes and boundary layer control systems at supersonic speeds. It also had dual actuators laid sideways for each control surface so they could keep the thickness of the wings as thin as possible for VLO, but added mechanical complexity to the FLCS. It still didn't have a solution for its weapons bay storage and ejection racks, and couldn't carry as many weapons as the YF-22. All of these issues represented serious cost risks to the whole program, so even though it met the requirements, it was a much riskier option from a company that had already demonstrated massive cost overruns with the B-2A in production and delivery to USAF. The YF-22 PAV-1 (GE YF-120L motors) was the only ATF prototype that exceeded Mach 2. They already had weapons bay solutions for AIM-9 & AIM-120 with demonstrated separation capability, and had an excellent bowless canopy with all-around view. The one area the YF-22 failed was weight. It was too heavy for the desired 1.2 T/W ratio on take-off, so engine performance increased to 35,000lbs per in production. As a result, the F-22A has monstrous T/W ratio and excess thrust throughout the regime. If the YF-23 had gone onto the F-23A, it was going to grow even more in length to accommodate another forward weapons bay and still not have the weapons load that the F-22A has. There were aspects of the YF-23 test pole model that had better VLO, but others on the YF-22 test pole that were better, especially looking at serpentine intake ductwork vs the YF-23's partially-exposed cold stage turbofan inlet guide vanes from lower frontal-oblique angles. Best thing going for the YF-23 was combat radius/range.
A year and a half later, the F-22 is now battle-tested, with it's first kill in combat. I think with this newfound perspective we can safely conclude that the YF-23 would be just as effective against even the mightiest of chinese high-altitude balloons.
It is not just capabilities of the plane, it is also manufacturing capabilities, logistics, track of record. Also, if Northrop got the B-2 it would make sense to give the F-22 to Lockheed to keep industry capability going.
The USAF should have bought the two prototypes, and used them for OPFOR/aggressor craft to mimic the best a near-peer rival could throw at us. Could you imagine these sexy beast painted up like an SU57 Felon?!😍
The other issue with the selection process was that the GE YF120, internally designated as GE37 was a more advanced jet engine than the PW F119, company designation PW5000. The GE jet engine was an adaptive cycling engine and the PW was not.
It's way too expensive to produce and maintain., especially with the introduction of the multi-purposed F 35, hence why you have the Air Force adopt the latest version of the F 15 as the F 35's missile truck until the next gen air superior fighter is developed. The case is similar with the F 16, since the F 35 is constantly delayed, the F 16 is allowed to stay as a stop gap measure until there are enough F 35
I think the F-22 costs about $60,000 an hour to operate, way too expensive. Plus, the Air Force is looking for a new way to do business with the NGAD program. NGAD will try to pump out fighters with desired capabilities every 5 years instead of building fighters the old fashioned way, which is to try to predict what the enemy will be like in 25 years and built a fighter to that threat. NGAD is a revolutionary way of thinking.
The 23 design is superior because it retains energy while almost matching thrust vectoring manoeuvrability thus giving its pilot a huge advantage. It's also has a lower heat signature due to the exhaust design, Northrup must have anticipated IR seeking would be the next big leap in missile design and built the 23 to minimise it.
The YF-23 was the better aircraft during the competition stage. Remember the failure of the YF-22’s ‘missile launch tubes’ and being allowed to fix them during the competition.
I am pretty sure the YF-23 lost because of the B2 replacement … Northrop have been placed in a bomber only contract… Lockeed have been put on the fighter program for the F-22 and the F-35
Say what you will, they're _both_ beautiful birds. I had a 1:48 scale modelkit of the Raptor, a kit that still called it an F/A-22... that hull was sleek and aspired to Hexagon -which we all know to be bestagon-, but nowadays I'm kinda wishing the -23 wasn't as rare as it seems to be...
Lockheed didn't even meet the requirements for competing for the NGAD against the YF-23. Because they were supposed to present 2 different jets, one with Pratt & Whitney engines and one with the GE engines. Yet they only showed up with one of them. Yet we're supposed to believe that it wasn't favoritism.
According to some video producers the YF-23 was not chosen because they didn't use any weapons drops during the testing phase and since McDonald Douglas did fire some missiles during the testing they was chosen as the favorite and I believe that was a mistake, but the company could still be picked to produce the aircraft anyway since the machinery for the F-22 has been destroyed after the initial order was completed.
I am still being anxious about YF-23 Black Widow being completely wiped out from any consideration. Even though F-22 was chosen for next gen fighter the YF-23 would still do great with any other role. All the work and hearts put in to its birth, man. It was a mistake to dump entire program into a skip ... pain full
the design lessons learned on the YF23 can and will at least be applied going forward. the design may even be revamped if need be when the time comes after F22, F35, F15EX etc, it will be interesting in decades to come to see what transpires but patience is a virtue. i saw rumors that the YF23 could become an export at one point depending on production etc .
The F-15 was built in response to the MIG-25 and the Backfire bomber Ironically the MIG-25 was built in response to the XB-70 Valkyrie when the soviets saw a Mach 3 nuclear bomber they 💩themselves Later it was found out after a pilot defected with a MIG-25 that is could not dog fight it was strictly an interceptor
YF-23 was a much better airframe. Given a few more years, it could have been the best of the best. I’m positive that if they used the airframe today modernized, it would stand as a 50 year life craft way beyond any other air force contender. Better then any aircraft ever built.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
Imagine if the USAF chose the F-22 and the navy chose the F-23. It would be similar to the F-15 and F-14 situation - each service having one of the best aircraft in the world optimised for their specific needs.
Imagine if USAF had selected the F-23 and USN, the next-gen follow up F-14 mod... case closed
the YF-23 was too big for carrier use though
@@colten1825 Nobody was talking about YF-23 for carrier operations. The next-gen Super Tomcat would have covered that role and would be an operational game-changer if operating today . Whereas, the would-be F-23 assembly line today if it was the more prudent model selected back then would probably be producing at least a couple different evolved model specific types still today. case closed ✌
@@donkoh5738 F-14 had impressive capability for the time but it is a giant hunk of junk. Expensive, heavy swing wing mechanisms, compressor stall issues, lack of AMRAAM support, and more; the tomcat was a hangar queen, with extremely complicated maintenance. Plus, it was fucking HUGE for the boat. roughly 65x65 feet when fully opened.
Maybe the Navy doesn't fall for lobbying bullshit as easily.
the YF-23 is my favorite warplane of all time (even if it did not serve in any wars), everything about it is beautiful! I believe that the lessons learned from the YF-23 will inspire designs of future aircraft of America and it's allies, perhaps even a modernized YF-23 will come into service one day as a 6th generation fighter!
The biggest lesson learned by Northrop is that your marketing team is just as if not more important than your engineering team.
@@longshot7601 is that why they lost to Lockheed Martin? 🛫
I think Northrop learned their lessons with the B-2. That's why the B-21 is on schedule. I feel pretty certain that the F-23 would have been on time and on budget (or at least pretty close) just because of the lessons that Northrop had already learned.
But that's hindsight 20/20, and the Raptor is a kick butt machine of death. Honestly, America won in that contest.
@Raider Primus You can look for yourself
We don't have enough f22s. I wish we had more AND the f23.
@Raider Primus www.northropgrumman.com/what-we-do/air/b-21-raider/
www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/2682973/b-21-raider/
With regards to the B2, there was no lesson for Northrup/Hughes/Motorola to learn....the program was cut to just a fraction of what was initially ordered and therefor, per the contract (like all DoD contracts), if you reduce the number of aircraft ordered, the price per aircraft goes up..... plus, the B2 was also an integrated R&D program with every revision (tech wise) requested and approved by the USAF..... The B2 (pieces) were actually built in Pico Rivera (assembled in Palmdale) and Hughes Aircraft had a R&D facility at that site as they developed/transitioned new/existing tech onto the planes as they were being built........ I could go on more about why the B21 is being funded but you would cringe!!!!!!!
@@lucastekkan
Wasting your time providing information to a troll
Some of the things lobbed at Northrop at the time, could be said about LM now; however, factoring in both companies missteps, and bungles, at the end of the day they do manage to meet the required metrics. Not gonna get into things that keep dogging the F-35, but its capabilities keep expanding and improving. Basically, I am a YF-23 fan, rooted for it when I learned of the program originally. At the end of the day though, the F-22 doesn't disappoint and has served the Air Force well. So this is just an emotional decision . . . YF-23 hell yeah!!!
Not to mention the thing is amazingly beautiful! There goes the old adage, if it looks right…it doesn’t get the contract! YF-22 watered the Air Farce’s eyes with high AOA maneuvers & genuine thrust vectoring. The Navy was very unhappy with Northrip because of their failed stealth attack jet. I really feel it would have been a superior fighter. Ah well.
I preferred the YF-23 over the F-22 in the ATF competition, but honestly I preferred the X-35 over the X-32 in the JSF program.
Fair disclosure: I'm somewhat biased by income source to prefer the 23 and the 32.
There's an interesting video on Mover's channel talking with the ATF program head, he mentioned how he took pains to ensure that whichever plane was chosen, all the basics that the Air Force wanted would be fulfilled, regardless of Pentagon politicking. So really, any benefits of one platform over the other were just bonus points on top of the critical requirements, and the YF-23 would probably have performed admirably as well. Don't sell your opinion short!
@@dsdy1205 I've watched that video.
@@kathrynck ayy, man is a role model to me tbh, how he managed the program
I'd actually like to see a larger version of the YF-23 that could take over the role of the F-111. That mid range tactical strike hasn't been replaced, well only about 80% replaced with the F-15E.
I kind of doubt anyone here has seen it, but the anime "Macross Plus" was inspired by this competition.
The amazing thing is that the 23 was so good if they started producing it now (not a bad idea considering China), it would still be at the top of the food chain along with the 22. I remember hearing some speculation a while back that Japan had been considering buying the rights to build the 23, obviously nothing came of that. I honestly think given the world climate in 2021, bringing back the 23 as a production fighter would be a very good tactical choice.
I agree. The majority of the research and development is already finished. Sure, they could refine a few things here and there and modify and upgrade anything else that could further improve its capabilities. It was designed WAY back in ‘92 after all.. basically, considering it’s highly capable design, most of the work has already been done, they should seriously consider looking into what an updated overall cost per unit would be today if they produced, say, 300 units vs what it would cost to start a whole new fighter program from scratch that would need to fulfill the same requirements of what the f-23 is capable of already doing according to its ‘92 prototype. I would imagine, even if you added in the costs of modifying the original design to incorporate various modifications to improve on the original, it would still end up being an overall bargain when compared with the typical disgustingly bloated costs associated with military projects.
I would honestly love to see a comparison of the original ‘92 capabilities vs a modernized F-23 that has had various improvements afforded by the advancement of technology over the last nearly 30 years!!
However, despite how awesome this aircraft was, it’s completely outclassed by what they created less than 10 years ago, but chances are those “won’t exist” for at least another 20 years or so.
Big fan of Macross! Plus had that Top Gun feel to the competition. I haven't watched it in years. Time to dust off the dvds.
Yeah also add "Day of the Cheetah" by Dale Brown. Loved both.
Weird how Macross predicted how the ATF program would play out. Just like the F-22 in real life, while the YF-19 won the competition for the UN Spacy's new mainstay variable fighter, the Excalibur would only be procured in limited numbers. And just like the Eagle which the Raptor was supposed to replace, production of the old VF-17 Nightmare (as the VF-171). would outlive that of the VF-19
@@kidwajagstang you're right it would be a bargain to build it now since they know what the airframe can do. Give it the same computer system as the F-35 and it should fit right in.
Another thing that didn't help the yf23 was the fact that the Air Force was still royally pissed at Northrop for the snowballing cost of the b-2 spirit and felt they couldn't trust them to deliver the YF 23 on budget even though the costs of the F-22 snowballed out of control to the I watering 182 million per plane cost of the raptor
To be fair, the blame for that lays at the feet of congress. They cut procurement numbers, which increased unit price, which was used as an excuse to further cut procurement numbers, which further increased unit price, which was used as a rationale to further cut procurement numbers... ad infinitum, until a $500 million dollar bomber became a specialty item with only 20 built, each one having to contain more and more of the full program cost, at 2.5 billion apiece.
This has happened to other military hardware programs, but the B-2 is a textbook example of the problem. For the USAF to be pissed at Northrup over it is dumb.
This is why it was a really big deal when the previous administration negotiated & placed a bulk order for nearly 500 F-35's, cash up front. Notice the price per unit dropped about 20% overnight? Instead of rising every year?
If congress had any financial sense, at all, there wouldn't be much national debt. Of course at this point the debt kinda fuels itself, like an upside down retirement account.
@@kathrynck very good point a lot of people don't realize the economies of scale whether it's fighters or any other manufactured product.
As the US cuts the numbers of planes they want (after the proposal is determined) then the costs skyrocket as it is no longer spread out over a larger production.
I touched the Gray Ghost. It is at the Dayton Airforce base. . Love that Jet. Little known fact, The F-22 now Uses the Engine of the yf-23
Just imagine if the USAF had the choice to pick both of these legendary jets, the US would dominate the skies with 2 Air Apex predators
Exactly
Rip USAF's budget
Yeah sure but Obama's stupid presidency is the reason of hault of F 22 production completely ruining things
@@diecastworld7962 you guys always blame everything on Obama don't you lol. Leave politics out of this the f22 had its own problems.
@@Intranetusa meanwhile people are crying about the F35 price...
Plot twist: The U.S. has actually had dozens of YF-23s built in secret and just haven't used them yet
Yup, that's what I'm thinking. The plane is too good. It has to be panned as "a loser" to our enemies. Aw shucks. Good try Northrop. 😜😜😜
@@TheZoePath Lol I just thought of an edit that would be better "... built in secret and deployed 6 months after the F-22, but they're so stealthy and lethal no one outside USAF pilots has ever seen one on radar or in visible range" I guess we'll never know
if you Amerikans start losing satellites at random, it's DEFINITELY just accidents.
@@jordansenna752 🤣
@@IshijimaKairo our enemies will run out satellites before 🇺🇸👍
This is the most accurate and fairest assessment of the 1990s ATF competition. Kudos and keep it up!
The footage is amazing
From what I remember, the f-22 was actually outfitted with the yf-23’s avionics after Lockheed won the bid. At some point around the 7:00-7:30 mark you said the YF-22 had superior avionics when I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the case..
There were three competitions essentially - avionics, engine and airframe.
@@piotrd.4850 That's the weirdest part of the competition IMO. YF-23 was more-or-less ready to fly as it was designed.
YF-22 was NOTHING like the f-22. The design had so many issues that by the time they were done working them out, they'd basically designed an entirely new airframe.
debunked
@@mrbigberd "YF-23 was more-or-less ready to fly as it was designed"
Apparently this was not the case. If it were NG would have done a more thorough demonstration of the -23's capabilities. The eventual Raptor was a marginally better aircraft, but LM did a way better job of selling their product than NG did with theirs.
I was hoping the YF-23 would win the ATF at the time. So sad that the US can create the 2 best fighter planes in the world, and then only build one of them-- I wish they could build both, like if maybe the Navy could pick it up! Seems like such a sad waste of technology :(
very true.
Back then , the name of the Game was close combat, (dog fighting) and the F22 suit that particular mission to a T. And China wasn't much of a threat 30 years ago.
Yup. They should have greenlit both for one fully finished production machine to have another flyoff. IMO the same should have been done for the X32. The proposed changes Boeing had in the pipe would have been something to see.
If I'm not mistaken...Japan was supposedly getting talks going on the YF-23 not to long ago.(in the last year or two?) They were interested in it.
I’m sure the modifications needed to make them carrier capable would have been substantially expensive and offer less of a performance to make it feasible. There were attempts to look into bringing both the F15 and the F22 to The Fleet. Imagine these things being the true replacement to the Tomcat
Thank you, I was in high school during all this out at Edwards. You reported this story how I remember it and the stories you heard from those on both teams.
Northrop's YF-23 prototype prioritized survivability over super-manueverability. They did this by installing exhaust panels in the nuzzle which then significantly reduced the aircraft's Infrared signature. In turn it is less agile than the raptor due to the YF-23 not having thrust vector control.
Also, the unconventional airframe of the YF-23 was expected to be harder and more expensive to maintain and operate than the YF-22; all the more reason for USAF to choose the latter.
I'm happy to see that Sandboxx was able to talk about the YF-23. In my civillian eye an amazing plane. Thank you for your great video
Never really liked the look of the F-22 but the F-23 was an amazing looking machine.
The YF- 23 is the sexiest fighter I’ve ever seen …..it’s just awesome . I hope the 6 th gen that’s already been made was created out of the YF-23 ….
Probably
My gut tells me the F-23 never went away, it's just been doing other things
I said once and I will say It again: imagine a F 22 with technology of the F 35 what a best.
It wont happens but imagine stuff still for free.
That's funny, I was thinking the exact same opposite. I would combine the F23 beauty with F22 technology.
@@xchalibur77 maybe ou and me will endup having somewhat of our wishes caming true if Japan buy the F 23 and using F 35 technology on it.
@@erickcredidiooliveira201 that would be a pretty sight. Until you get attacked by one of those things 😜
Meanwhile, the AF is looking at F-15X models, the Navy Super Hornets, SAC has 60yr+ old B-52's.
Thanks, for the follow-up video. I still love the YF-23 Black Widow. I was such a visually stunning aircraft. The F-22's thrust vectoring is impressive I saw one (F-22) at an airshow over Lake Michigan. The YF-23 is my favorite fighter in Ace Combat.
Another reason why the F-22 beat out the YF-23 it was far too unconventional looking.
Very true the YF-23 was (and is) a beautiful aircraft! I’ve seen PAV-2 at the Western Museum of Flight. One thing not often mentioned is the engine nacelles are over-large because the plane was designed with thrust reversers, which requirement was cancelled.
Go overseas as infantry. It's not at all judged by what it looks. A10, c130 gunship aka spooky.
@@theodorethompson4536 I love the A-10 warthog. That Aircraft is the reason why I wanted the Cobra Rattler as a kid. It may be an ugly aircraft but it's a hell of a machine.. Ever since I looked down the barrel of one at an Airshow I was Is super impressed. The C-130 gunship Is mainly built as a cargo transport just shows you it shows you how Ingenuitive the United States is in our Is air power surpasses every Other military power.
Dude, I fly the hell out of my YF23 on Ace Combat too! Are you on the PS4? We should fly sometime.
@@nazz2406 no I'm a marine. We do appreciate all the things you blow up. But I digress. We love the hog and the spooky. The operators of those 2 platforms have saved the lives of my men and myself. The 10 thousand plus crowd playing video games up front qe appreciate you as well. Sir.
Decades old yet feels like these air craft sound still new to this day.
The aircraft currently being tested are making the F-22 look like a P51 Mustang.
If we built it today with newer upgrades, it will be the stealthiest most maneuverable (with mods) air superior fighter out there.
We already have a 6th gen prototype. It looks a lot like the yf23.
The 23 was not quite ready for production but given the opportunity to improve it it would have been the best interceptor fighter in the world. Remember the 23 went from clean sheet of paper to flying in 52 months.
The lessons learnt would be crucial for the longer range and increase stealth in the NGAD program. Some are already saying that the new fighter will have a design similar to the YF 23.
Listen, this is first-rate content. Every word of this presentation is well placed. Aside from the arguments in the script, the footage is simply mesmerizing. I felt like I was watching 60-Minutes for Defense Technology. Goodness. Well done.
Some of those shots (like the vector nozzles moving) I thought: 'Ooh! Are we supposed to be seeing this?'
I visited NASA Dryden in 1998 and my jaw dropped when I saw the grey YF23 sad, lonely, canopy covered, brown with dust, parked out over the other side of the taxiway. The scientist I was visiting was very adamant that the YF23 was better than the YF22 in almost every way, but politics intervened and it was Lockheed's turn to get the fighter contract. This is confirmed in the video at 8:50.
Something I remember hearing from a source I knew, is that not only did the 23 have that navy-friendly fuel capacity.. she also had the strengthened gears and catapult capability to operate off a Carrier.
Payload was so small though. It could only carry 4 AMRAAMs.
FWIW, Insider facts and scuttlebutt: YF-23 first flight was "wheels up". That normally doesn't happen. Usually, first test flight keeps the wheels down, just in case. However, the 22 first flight was wheels-down and actually had to make an emergency landing on the dry lake bed. YF-23, like the F-20 that competed with F-16 (Some National Guard units used a lawn dart for an F-16 desk model) was a breeze to maintain. F-22, like the F-16, not so much. Ground crews loved the YF-23 just as they had the earlier F-20 for their respective superior maintenance design. They grumbled about the difficulty servicing the F-22.
YF-23, first to fly super-cruise. Also, the rumor was the test pilots preferred YF-23 to the 22.
Northrop should make an updated version of their F23 and stick out their tongue at Lockheed. The F23 airframe can still be used today.
Wow, hard to believe the F-22 is already 25 years old! Still a gorgeous machine! ❤
Very good program. I love fighter planes with F-15 as my favorite.
There's one saying that holds true no matter when it's said... Hindsight is 20/20.
i like how aircraft come into service and when the first one is delivered they are allready looking for something better. That reminds me the F22 is pretty old allready, when can we see its replacement, because we know they are allready working on it
Northrop: Company run by engineers. Lockheed: Company run by lobbyists and bankers.
Money talks unfortunately
Lockheed: scandals go bribing
the head of the ATF program actually said as much, that Northrop was a company of engineers that hired some managers, and Lockheed was a company of managers that hired some engineers
Your comments are deeply unfair to the Skunk Works and to the brilliant minds working there there like Kelly Johnson, Ben Rich and Denys Overholster!
they should show dislikes for comments like this
I love the look of the YF-23 and the name was perfect (though "Spectre" would have worked, too, considering the second prototype was called the Gray Ghost) and I was rooting for it in the fly-off. However, speculation that the navy would pick it up is a non-starter. That airframe is just HUGE, and the Navy has to consider how many it can stage on its carrier platforms. The F-22 is a kick-butt piece of hardware, but I wouldn't cry if they dusted off the YF-23, did some tweaks to the tech, and maybe added thrust vectoring to it for a gen 5.5? Hmmm.....
How do you add thrust vectoring to the low IR heat absorbing trenches though? Any directional nozzels retro fitted at the back would just light it up, and who needs thrust vectoring anyway? The age of dogfighting is sadly over, otherwise you wouldn't be bothering with stealth in the first place, and IR stealth is the new battle ground which the 23 has in spades over the 22. But yes, totally agree, i think the 6th gen fighters will take a lot from the 23
Damn! They are both sweet, beautiful planes. It would be like having to choose between Pamela Anderson from her Baywatch days, and Shania Twain when she came out with her first album. 🤔
Both stunning aircraft.
I've no idea how the procurement process works, but it should come down to more than whoever has the best sales pitch - that's a ridiculous way to look at national defence.
The F23 was faster and stealthier. The F22 more agile. The AF chose the F22 because it was less risky and quite frankly LM had better Washington connections. Also Northrop already had it's hands full with the B2 bomber
It was far more in-depth than has ever been reported in the open.
YF-23 represented greater risk because windscreens kept cracking during supersonic tests.
Weapons bay couldn't carry much and had no solution demonstrated for storage and ejection/separation.
The flight control system had double the amount of actuators to make the wings thinner/no bulbous fairings for full power actuators.
The intake geometry and boundary layer control mechanisms didn't allow it to achieve its maximum propulsive potential, along with the windscreens failing.
Neither of the YF-23 PAVs went Mach 2 as a result. They could have done so if those issues were resolved, but that required more RDT&E while YF-22 PAV1 already easily broke Mach 2, and both could carry and separate weapons.
Most of the comments I've seen are opposite of what happened during DEMVAL.
The F-23 had its exhaust nozzles deeply set in troughs lined with ceramic heat tiles. This drastically lowered its infrared signature over the conventionally-placed nozzles of the F-22.
I think no matter the somewhat equal abilities between the two airframes at the time the f22 looked so sexy . It was like the super model of the early 2000s.
Northrop's YF-17, the actual prototype for the F/A-18 (Northrop won a three hundred million suit against McDonnell Aircraft for breach of contract), already had the "super cruise" capability of breaking the sound barrier without afterburner, and it had afterburner and the ability to fly straight up and accelerate. A generation of technology was scrapped for politics, as for the superior F-23, and with ignoring of the F-20 which would still be competitive today as a cheap and inexpensive to maintain trainer.
the YF-23 even looks cooler in my opinion
Black Widow looks amazing.
The fighter we wanted vs the fighter we got
The YF-23 would have manuevers similar to F-35. The Black Widow is best used as a strike fighter. The Raptor is an air superiority fighter, designed to kill another fighter in both BVR and WVR.
Losing to the YF-22 was the last nail in McDonnell Douglas' coffin. Sad times.
As I remember it, it was after McDonnell Douglas lost its bid for the JSF, what later became the F-35, that they threw in the towel and merged with Boeing.
I feel like I have insider trading knowledge now thank you
The FX16 competed against the FX17 and won the competition. However the Navy did not like the FX16's single engine and later reserected the FX17 as the twin engine F18 -- so both designs ended up being built.
Damn, the YF-23 first flew 32 years ago, imagine what they have now.
The yf23 looks absolutely amazing
The new 6th gen prototype we have appears to be based on it.
Enjoyed the Rocky comparison, & of course the vid as well. 😉👍✌️
I served many years in the Marine Corps. I can absolutely verify that Congress when it comes to approving weapon systems is fascinated by bells and whistles. The fancier button, the more likely they are to push it. I honestly believe it would not have mattered if the YF 23 would have beaten the YF22 in every single respect but did not have thrust vectoring , they would have still gone with the YF22.
YF-23 cracked several windscreens in supersonic tests, so it never exceeded Mach 1.82 if I recall the graphs correctly.
It also had problems with the intakes and boundary layer control systems at supersonic speeds.
It also had dual actuators laid sideways for each control surface so they could keep the thickness of the wings as thin as possible for VLO, but added mechanical complexity to the FLCS.
It still didn't have a solution for its weapons bay storage and ejection racks, and couldn't carry as many weapons as the YF-22.
All of these issues represented serious cost risks to the whole program, so even though it met the requirements, it was a much riskier option from a company that had already demonstrated massive cost overruns with the B-2A in production and delivery to USAF.
The YF-22 PAV-1 (GE YF-120L motors) was the only ATF prototype that exceeded Mach 2. They already had weapons bay solutions for AIM-9 & AIM-120 with demonstrated separation capability, and had an excellent bowless canopy with all-around view.
The one area the YF-22 failed was weight. It was too heavy for the desired 1.2 T/W ratio on take-off, so engine performance increased to 35,000lbs per in production.
As a result, the F-22A has monstrous T/W ratio and excess thrust throughout the regime.
If the YF-23 had gone onto the F-23A, it was going to grow even more in length to accommodate another forward weapons bay and still not have the weapons load that the F-22A has.
There were aspects of the YF-23 test pole model that had better VLO, but others on the YF-22 test pole that were better, especially looking at serpentine intake ductwork vs the YF-23's partially-exposed cold stage turbofan inlet guide vanes from lower frontal-oblique angles.
Best thing going for the YF-23 was combat radius/range.
@@LRRPFco52 I love it when people bring cold hard facts to the table instead of ignorant arguments.
Guuuhreat channel! Thanks for the vids, catching up on your old ones.
A year and a half later, the F-22 is now battle-tested, with it's first kill in combat.
I think with this newfound perspective we can safely conclude that the YF-23 would be just as effective against even the mightiest of chinese high-altitude balloons.
Northrop lost the contract by electing to NOT do A maneuverability demonstration.
What are you talking about? Lockheed teamed up with boeing
I think you meant, northrop lost because _______.
Awesome channel! Thanks for the great videos.
In the pit of our stomachs, a lot of us think the YF-23 should have been produced and we ended leaving a very capable aircraft out of the future.
New engines, advanced sensors, the most uptodate surface controls and power storage on a yf23 will make it incredibly lethal.
It is not just capabilities of the plane, it is also manufacturing capabilities, logistics, track of record. Also, if Northrop got the B-2 it would make sense to give the F-22 to Lockheed to keep industry capability going.
F-14 also won "perception demo" against F-15 when Iran was choosing the fighters.
I’m surprised this channel doesn’t have more subscribers - Super informative video
the YF models look sifi as F.
kinda feel bad for the folks that worked on it only to not get the contract.
I believe from your report you watched the Peninsula Seniors video on the YF-23. Thumbs way up
The USAF should have bought the two prototypes, and used them for OPFOR/aggressor craft to mimic the best a near-peer rival could throw at us. Could you imagine these sexy beast painted up like an SU57 Felon?!😍
Saw a good vid on this where the guy said both planes had strong and weak points. I think in the end they went with the best option
The other issue with the selection process was that the GE YF120, internally designated as GE37 was a more advanced jet engine than the PW F119, company designation PW5000. The GE jet engine was an adaptive cycling engine and the PW was not.
If the F22 fighter has no match, why is it being retired ahead of the 30 year old F16 & F15 fighters?
It's way too expensive to produce and maintain., especially with the introduction of the multi-purposed F 35, hence why you have the Air Force adopt the latest version of the F 15 as the F 35's missile truck until the next gen air superior fighter is developed. The case is similar with the F 16, since the F 35 is constantly delayed, the F 16 is allowed to stay as a stop gap measure until there are enough F 35
I think the F-22 costs about $60,000 an hour to operate, way too expensive. Plus, the Air Force is looking for a new way to do business with the NGAD program. NGAD will try to pump out fighters with desired capabilities every 5 years instead of building fighters the old fashioned way, which is to try to predict what the enemy will be like in 25 years and built a fighter to that threat. NGAD is a revolutionary way of thinking.
Good stuff Alex!
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Thanks, brother!
The 23 design is superior because it retains energy while almost matching thrust vectoring manoeuvrability thus giving its pilot a huge advantage.
It's also has a lower heat signature due to the exhaust design, Northrup must have anticipated IR seeking would be the next big leap in missile design and built the 23 to minimise it.
The YF-23 was the better aircraft during the competition stage. Remember the failure of the YF-22’s ‘missile launch tubes’ and being allowed to fix them during the competition.
Probably the best fighter never built! A great loss.
Great information video!!!!!💯 I love thses types of videos
This thing is what the next generation of fighters will probably look like
Solid take on a classic 🤙🏾
With all the stealth, stand off capacity and fuel economy if you can't dog fight and hit Mach 2 you're gooning.
I see it as a stealth Aardvark. Instead of Black Widow, Aardvark II would be perfect.
I am pretty sure the YF-23 lost because of the B2 replacement …
Northrop have been placed in a bomber only contract…
Lockeed have been put on the fighter program for the F-22 and the F-35
The YF-23 was the best in my opinion. Political strings were pulled for Lockeed just saying. Both aircraft are the cream of the crop.
I think an upgraded version of this aircraft would be awesome if added to our capabilities.
Military contracts are awarded to the highest briber, not the best builder.
Another great video!
They should have taken both of them. The stealth and range of the 23 is huge. I can't wait to see a real 6 generation fighter.
Say what you will, they're _both_ beautiful birds. I had a 1:48 scale modelkit of the Raptor, a kit that still called it an F/A-22... that hull was sleek and aspired to Hexagon -which we all know to be bestagon-, but nowadays I'm kinda wishing the -23 wasn't as rare as it seems to be...
Lockheed didn't even meet the requirements for competing for the NGAD against the YF-23. Because they were supposed to present 2 different jets, one with Pratt & Whitney engines and one with the GE engines. Yet they only showed up with one of them. Yet we're supposed to believe that it wasn't favoritism.
According to some video producers the YF-23 was not chosen because they didn't use any weapons drops during the testing phase and since McDonald Douglas did fire some missiles during the testing they was chosen as the favorite and I believe that was a mistake, but the company could still be picked to produce the aircraft anyway since the machinery for the F-22 has been destroyed after the initial order was completed.
It didn't need thrust vector and could do the same thing.
The F22 is America's most capable Air Show Fighter.
Kind of looks like an sr-71 from the front
They went and changed the parameters during the fly off. The YF-23 was made for stealth and could not employ the vector thrusting engine addition.
Navy/Marines buy some YF-23s! I bet they would sell you a few upgraded ones.
The LM missile shot was required because the AF was worried about engine damage after the shot
The Navy should have fought for the YF23.
YF23 to big for the aircraft carrier. To bad.
Cute "Rocky" wrap-up! :- )
I am still being anxious about YF-23 Black Widow being completely wiped out from any consideration. Even though F-22 was chosen for next gen fighter the YF-23 would still do great with any other role. All the work and hearts put in to its birth, man. It was a mistake to dump entire program into a skip ... pain full
Had the video game in the nineties. Could only run it in 4 colors. Setting was in San Francisco. You could do a carrier land (practiced ILS).
Food for thought.
the design lessons learned on the YF23 can and will at least be applied going forward. the design may even be revamped if need be when the time comes after F22, F35, F15EX etc, it will be interesting in decades to come to see what transpires but patience is a virtue. i saw rumors that the YF23 could become an export at one point depending on production etc .
How come I get every time so emotional if I hear about the YF 23, because it is the most Sexy plane ever build!
The YF-23 tail section is called a ruddervator.
So did the F-15 come about to compete with the Su-27 etc, or vice versa?? You say both in your narration.
The F-15 was built in response to the MIG-25 and the Backfire bomber
Ironically the MIG-25 was built in response to the XB-70 Valkyrie when the soviets saw a Mach 3 nuclear bomber they 💩themselves
Later it was found out after a pilot defected with a MIG-25 that is could not dog fight it was strictly an interceptor
Fortunately, both platforms are valuable contributors to the NGAD program (and Navy’s next Gen as well).
YF-23 was a much better airframe. Given a few more years, it could have been the best of the best. I’m positive that if they used the airframe today modernized, it would stand as a 50 year life craft way beyond any other air force contender. Better then any aircraft ever built.