Russian media screaming "A man punched a woman with no consequences!" Meanwhile Russia having no law preventing domestic violence has been kind of funny to me
@@kimthegreywhy did they decriminalize it?? like what was the justification and argument for that? obviously the intent of the decision is clear, but how do they justify this to those who have women in their lives that they want to protect?
@@kaylahowe2491 they said its about fastening the trial and helping victims out with the burocrasy. in 2017 putin decided that the first-time assault is kinda okay (and will be prosecuted as a administrative overstepping), and only second time shall be criminally punished. so, its not completely absent, but now has all the victims in a very tricky place, when their abuser will pay the court-ordered fine and return to home, more volitale and angry.
I remeber someone commenting "JKR is one bottle of gin away from tweeting that people of color can't be women", and I remember thinking it was a funny hyperbole. But like we're getting closer and closer to that tweet, this whole controversy is madness to me.
Couple years ago I went at it with a guy online who insisted Idris Elba couldn't be Bond because he's not British. When I said he is in fact British, the person countered that Elba's father was born elsewhere so somehow that meant he was as well. I pressed him further on what the characteristics of Bond are and how none of them are contingent upon his skin color, and the other person continued arguing that Bond must be high class and Elba could never pass for that. Essentially their arguments boiled down to, "Elba can't be Bond because you must be White to be Enlgish, and Black people are too low-class."
To Natalie’s line about the racism and the dehumanization of Imane, someone made a very good point about how nonwhite athletes are not simply described as good at what they do like their white counterparts, it’s often through terms like “beast” and “animal”. It runs deep.
Yes this and their hardwork is never recognized. Their success is often only attributed to "raw talent" which... ofc they're talented but they also worked very hard to get where they are. And that's just another byproduct of people dehumanizing them and viewing them as primitive.
Serina Williams being accused of "being a man," ties into this, too. Where Racism, Sexism, and Transphobia can meet. I haven't experienced racism, so I can't speak to that. But I know she's a human being, who is good at her sport. If anything, those who dehumanized her were more beasts than she was. Like. It would be nice if people could just grow up. Stop being such dillholes for a while
They never really acknowledge them as actually earning it or working hard, but it being somehow innate to them. Which is also what downplays meritocracy against POC. So whenever Conservatives argue anything about merit they don't assume a POC has it. It just means white. So then they think if there is a demand for more inclusive representation, they argue its only because of racial optics. Its never stated that they worked for it.
"This woman had her dreams crushed fighting for her deceased father" because Imane doesn't have dreams or was fighting for her family who lived in poverty and use to be against her dreams and was selling scrap metal to attend trainings.
Exactly! It’s competitive sport and not everyone winds up placing in many tournament styles. The fact that they got to be competing Olympians is already supposed to be a prize, though one you sadly are not well compensated for most often.
A VERY important layer to this is also Imane is from Algeria, a country that is very hostile to trans people, both in culture and in the law, so what JK did here is not just internet bullying, it is very sincerely risking Imane's life when she returns home, and the entire internet is calling her trans. I very truly worry about her safety now. It put a target on her back in one of the riskiest places on Earth to be a trans person. (And Imane did not sign up for that battle in any way, given she did not transition)
fortunately they has her back even before she won her gold! Algeria's president said the honored algerian women and algerian boxers. She actually has great support at home.
i don’t think trans people are hated there..they’re just not known about. it’s important to know that Algerians are just regular human beings like people in the west. they aren’t born to “hate” lgbtq+ people. they’re just not known about, thus causing ignorance. just like americans honestly.
Fortunately Algerians are very supportive of her and are comfortable calling this case what it is, racist, though some have been doing that in their own queerphobic way. I saw some dude say that she was so hated by the west for "defying the rainbow flag" and Algerians online keep making sure westerners understand they "only have 2 genders", when the reason she is hated is because she accidentally defied whatever nonsense the western gender binary convienently molds itself into to win the culture war. They aren't as comfortable calling this an instance of a cisgender woman experiencing transphobia because of misogyny, unfortunately. We, collectively, will not learn from this case as much as we would hope.
@@daemia9472 >Iman is Algerian, then why doesn't Iman wear hijab like other Algerian women? It is a strictly Muslim country. Because the hijab isn't mandatory in her country ??? The ancient french colonies in north africa are muslim country but not theocracy, they don't enforce charia law, and it's not uncommon for women there to not cover their hair. But good job giving your opinion on something you know nothing about, just more proof that people in this controversy don't give a fuck about women safety and are just jumping on the last opportunity to be racist piece of shit.
Not finished watching this yet but I can’t believe this video came out today - today I was kicked out of the women’s bathroom by two other women at a hospital because I was accused of being a man. I am a cis women, I have no hair because of illness. It was so dehumanising, I couldn’t do anything to prove that I am cis woman in the moment. They were looking me up and down as I told them I am a woman as if they were analysing every part of my body. One of the women said to the other “I think he might actually be a woman” and the other said “no he isn’t” - in the end I just left out of embarrassment and used the disabled bathroom (ironic, I’m not disabled in a way that would require me to use the disabled bathroom) - this video is kind of comforting after the day I had today. Thanks guys
I'm so sorry that happened to you! What an awful thing to experience on top of being unwell and in hospital. Don't let those idiots get to you. You focus on yourself and your health and being kind to yourself. Not having hair does not diminish you in any way, gendered or otherwise. ❤
Damn, that's horrible. Sorry that happened to you. If someone tried to pull that on me in a woman's bathroom, I'd literally raise hell. Those ladies that kicked you out were lucky you're a saint. Hope you're doing well, and praying for your recovery 🙏🙏
Sadly, this will likely only get worse for the foreseeable future. Gender policing genuinely seems like it's reaching a paranoid fever pitch. The category of woman is becoming tighter and tighter to an absurd extent, while apparently man is just anyone that doesn't fit that increasingly narrow definition. This doesn't just affect trans or genderqueer people, cis-women are going to be hurt just as badly as conservatives push for their body to be policed, assessed, and categorized.
My tween, cis boy is small for his age, has long hair and a wardrobe that includes some feminine-perceived elements, and is regularly misgendered by strangers. Every time he uses a public bathroom alone I hold my breath a little, worried some "transvestigator" is going to decide he doesn't belong there. These people make every single person on the planet less safe.
As a somewhat effeminate trans man living in the southern USA, most people in the mens room do not care about what’s going on in there. It’s (thankfully for me) a much less policed space than the women’s room. It’s still kinda scary and I still hate using public restrooms but I hope that eases your mind a little :)
Yep. That’s coz women aren’t a physical threat to women but men are a threat to women. Love the way you make it sound like it’s like coz women are just ‘crazy’ you wouldn’t have to worry at all if the trans ideology hadn’t taken over the western world and now we are naturally forced to view everyone in a single sex space with suspicion. So your fears are a direct result of the trans cult.
@@BeTeeElsecond this! in my experience cishet men in general really dislike the idea of possibly misgendering someone (especially someone more masculine presenting). a lot of the bathroom scare is centered around trans women "invading" womens restrooms, being inherently labeled as a threat for being assigned male at birth. haven't ever really experienced any bathroom transphobia in the 5+ years i've been out, and i've travelled multiple times internationally. i hope your son knows how loved he is ❤❤ being confident enough to express your divine femininity as a kid is something i'm thankful i got to experience as a transmasculine person. not many cis men get that chance as a kid, i'm so thankful you are letting him present more femininely as a boy.
This reminds me of my teenage, 40 yrs ago in Paris, when as a long-hair teen I was systematically misgendered at the bakery downstairs from my apartment building. The lady at the counter would always asked me "Et pour la demoiselle, ça sera quoi?" [Lit: "And for the young miss, what will it be?"]. I'd always spell my order with a slightly deeper voice than my natural one, for funsies. She always acted surprised. Transpanic was not a thing, then, so it was more like roundabout homophobia, mostly performative (I'm cishet and was dating a girl in the same neighborhood, who patroned the same bakery). As the great philosopher Snake Plissken once said, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
wasn't JK Rowling also saying that girls shouldn't transition because they are just tomboys (just like she was growing up) instead of trans men, and we should be more accepting of gendernonconforming girls so they won't feel the need to transition? And now she treats a GNC woman like this
Imane is a male with DSD. A male DSD has a male musculoskeletal structure. Imane is clearly not a female DSD, jfc. Just because someone was raised as a girl, doesn't mean they should physically compete with women. (It isn't even a fact that Imane was raised so as past records show he addressed himself as a he/him and never wore hijab or women's clothing in the adulthood)
It definitely reveals it as the deflection tactic it is. My Mother would say exactly the same thing and say how I should just be a "Masculine girl"....but have a big fight with me every time I cut my hair short or didn't want to shave or wore something "too frumpy". They don't ACTUALLY want masculine girls, it's just used as a way to question transitioning. "Transitioning to be a man is just ridiculous, you can just be a masculine girl we will continue to mock anyway!" Even if I was just a masculine girl, I'd feel safer and more accepted around trans folks
I genuinely don’t understand why Angela Carini is being left off the hook for this? She’s known for pulling stunts when she’s going to lose, she did that at the last Olympics. She and Imane already knew each other before this and had even trained together. Being unsportsmanlike and crying immediately after losing is understandable. But she made a whole press conference insisting she had been wronged in some way seeking “justice.” She insisted on broadcasting her accusations to the world for her own benefit. She knew exactly what she was doing. I completely believe her that she didn’t expect it to get as out of control as it did… which is why it’s an important lesson in being careful in the way you dehumanize people. Angela was real slow to the apology and is only apologizing because she’s now facing hate of her own for what’s she’s done. This entire witch hunt would NOT have been possible without Carini.
I agree, I think she laid out the path for bigots to take to transphobia. She knew what she was doing when she said that the masculine Arab woman was “the hardest hit she’s ever taken”.
the witch hunt and transphobia tweets started BEFORE the match and before angela said anything because the match hadn't even happened yet. that's why she's not the biggest issue here and yes the witch hunt was possible without her because it started before her.
She is involved in extremist politics. She is a well connected police office with a history of stunts like this... I 100% guarantee she is being paid to behave like this so stories can be written and money can be made. There is no chance that this is a coincidence.
It makes me feel so empathetic for fellow women athletes who, regardless of them being cis or trans, don't "pass" in one way or another. As a woman of trans experience who looks nothing like a male, I can enter races as a woman without any sort of pushback coming my way, since I don't need to tell them about my gender identity. I am not even that good at running anyhow.
And one thing that gets overshadowed a lot in all of this is that a volleyballer from the Netherlands actually did terrible things to a 12 year old girl, yet he was allowed to compete in the Olympics properly for them. Yet the controversy is on a trans boxer that actually isn't trans at all...
And did Rowling and her flying monkeys say a single word about him? Of course not because they were too busy spreading malicious lies about someone they believed to be trans.
he was boo'd everytime he stepped on the court, while Imane Khelif was celebrated. luckily, actual people don't really care all that much about terminally online trolls like JKR or newspaper headlines.
As a Hungarian I think many people aren't aware of just how hateful and vitriolic Luca Hámori's Instagram stories towards Khelif were. Obviously the picture of "poor woman vs monstrous beast" is horrible, but one of the things she reposted also calls Khelif a "korcs", which is a word you should never ever ever use for a human. The closest equivalent I can think of is "mongrel"; it brings to mind an aggressive, worthless half-breed of a dog. I am truly surprised she never got disqualified and I think that was only because most people did not realise the extent of how hateful her posts were, either due to language barrier or lack of coverage. In fact the Hungarian Boxing Association (MÖSZ) awarded her the amount of money she would've received for bronze as a consolation prize, which is just disgusting and further rewarded her bigotry.
Wow, I hadn’t heard about this stuff, thank you. I honestly hope Khelif hadn’t either before she fought Hamori because I can’t imagine what it would be like to beat someone up within proscribed rules who had said such awful things about me. Like how do you land a few punches and not let emotion take over and have to be pulled off by several refs
i was waiting for them to bring this up. the fact that she didn’t get disqualified was laughable especially after she stood next to imane khelif, having fucking lost
So disgusting and racialized. She’s certainly not built like that picture either. She’s built like a boxer, like Imane. Lots of behavior that highlights the importance of sportsmanship this year, unfortunately.
@weirdcreature9928 not surprising given this from Reuters about Carini - "The International Boxing Association (IBA) will award Italy's Angela Carini, who lost her welterweight round-of-16 bout against Algerian Imane Khelif at the Paris Olympics in 46 seconds on Thursday, $50,000 in prize money." This was also stated by the IBA themselves.
Parsing this language has led me to believe that for people like Rowling, the opposite of trans isn't cis, it's "real". And by real, I mean a woman who is deserving of societal approval, protection, who acts in a really specific and limited way. As a cis woman, I've definitely never felt safe around those people and I used to think it was empathy but now I think it's self interest.
I think this is a really good point. I have a feeling if the other boxer looked similar to Imane or maybe presented differently it wouldn’t have been as big of a deal
It's telling when the "there's only two genders" people suddenly start believing in a 3rd gender upon learning she is not trans. And they never seem to push back against the people who still claim she is trans.
I will say this: there's lots I don't know about being a cis woman. But like. As a trans woman, I can say this: Being trans, doesn't even suck. In of itself. But. People like this? S 22:00 ure make it suck. Lol. And. I think you're right. This. Doesn't sound cool for you, either.
I feel like they underline it themselves in their “cis is a slur!” whine. To them, they are not “people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth,” they are “normal,” and “normal” only encompasses people who look “normal” and perform gender in the way they approve of. The culture of strict gender roles has always been chewing at its own tail, hurting cis people who fail to fit into the ideal mould, they’re just even more aggressive and vitriolic now that they feel threatened by the society around them trying to leave their damaging ideals behind, and they just also have new “gender ideology” buzzwords as weapons to lash out.
for jkr grade transphobes the line is now that trans people don't exist in any meaningful sense and anyone who can be seen as even slightly outside of traditional gender roles is just part of a broad coalition of delusional liars who want to hurt women
The thing about the whole "the smirk of a male who enjoyed punching a woman" comment too is that if a feminine cis woman had knocked out another visibly cis woman and had been SMILING during her victory shots, nobody would have said anything at all. As they said in the video, being upset about someone getting punched in the punching competition is wild.
@@phastinemoon honestly? she looks uncomfortable. like "the supposed professional youre competing against starts crying" uncomfortable. that for me is the face of someone trying to make the other person feel better even tho what the other person is doing is childish and embarassing
Hi, italian here. I kinda make Angela Carini the villain of the story, actually. Of course the media circus that ensued after the situation is not on her, but she DID go and meet up with our (fascist) head of state and embraced her support in the situation, later saying that she treated her like a daughter. I understand that she regretted her actions during the match, but that, imo, doesn't excuse the way she dwelled in the attention and, as far as i know, she never defended Khelif. She gladly accepted the support of the worst, fascistic politician and media personalities we have here in Italy.
Yeah I think she only "backtracked" a bit when she got some degree of backlash. If I force myself to give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe I'd say that she felt a bit bad when she saw how big the mess she instigated had grown. Anyways fuck her and fuck M*loni lol. Carini is a coward through and through.
Sono d'accordo. Il modo in cui si è comportata dopo non si allinea con le sue "scuse". Inoltre Angela e Imane si conoscono da anni. Imane ha confermato che si sono allenate insieme più volte in Italia (in Assisi se ricordo bene). E Imane conosce bene pure il suo allenatore. Quella scenata è stata imbarazzante e vergognosa. Carini non è innocente come vuole mostrare
You're Italian. If you think the athlete repping your country is to blame, you'd probably know more than me. But. I am Trans and have seen JK Rowling's track record. Same with Elon and Trump and the rest of the "Brain Drain," crew. So. That shit is just easier for my spidey-senses to pick up on. Lol. You make solid points, though
Outside of all this, if I was a praying woman? I'd be praying for you guys in Italy, as much as I would for the Americans, 😅 Racism seems to be on the rise these days
What really gets me is that basically none of the people dogpiling Khelif have ever cared about women's boxing before this. Most of the people throwing a hissy fit about trans-women in women's sports have never cared about women's sports before in their life. They've never watched a women's game, they don't follow their local women's teams, they only care about it when they can bash people they don't like.
Is there anyone they care about? Like Elon Musk who sees humans just as a workforce and wants to create babies in a lab to "boost population", what to expect from someone as horrible as him.
I think transphobia is just sexism with a specific target. Honestly, all the phobias around gender, sex and sexuality are the same thing. All of them are about policing what they think it means to be a man or woman, let alone non-binary, fluid or anything else. That's why they suddenly care because they think it has some challenge to the status quo and they can use something as a spring board for their rhetoric.
The people who say that a woman is an 'adult human female' are now having a difficult time determining what a 'female' is. Their inability to address the nuances of biological sex have made their stance on sex and gender completely incoherent.
I mean, in that context a “female” is just “someone who identifies as female”. It’s not hard to understand, it’s just not scientifically predictable because there are a lot of factors that go into it that we don’t even know about, so you could find two people with identical personalities who came from identical cultures but identify as different genders. There are tons of individual quirks and random little experiences that impact how you describe your relationship to gender.
Actually this is just the proponents of gender ideology. Something that according to Images own team they have and "issue with chromosomes" and is on testosterone suppressants to be within the female range. The obviously cooperates the findings of the IBA and claims of Imane having XY chromosomes. The actual reason is that none of you give the slightest fuck about keeping males out of women's sport.
Classic conservatives: the in-group always gets smaller and smaller as they're looking for more people to persecute. JK Rowling may very well wake up one morning and realise she's been thrown out because she's not fertile anymore / enjoys makeup / is not a tradewife / whatever other discrimination criteria the fascists have picked.
AND one was taller and punched harder than the other! Here I thought competition was meant to be exactly equal in all ways so that no one could beat the other and hurt their feelings…
I'm a little bit into combat sports as a fan. After the hubbub started I went and watched and honestly was shocked. Not at the brutality. It was 46 sec. 6-10 punches exchanged on each side with a pause for the Italian woman to get her headgear tightened. Imane definitely looked a lot better, more technical and tactical. But they didn't look ridiculously mismatched in the ring. The big swing that "destroyed dreams?" A solid but not particularly noteworthy cross. Hit solid, mostly because the Italian lady didn't have her hands up. It wouldn't have landed if she'd had even mediocre defense going on. She didn't really stagger, didn't look dazed. No blood. No strong expressions of pain. When she threw in the towel it was kinda shocking. My kid kickboxes and I've seen him (any many other amateur athletes of both genders) take hits that hard without issue. Flat out, if that cross was enough to make her quit, the Italian boxer had no business being in the ring.
The one that really puts this quote into perspective for me is that, in this same Olympic games, there was a volleyball player from the Netherlands who, aged 19, travelled to the UK to ply an eleven year old he'd been talking online with alcohol and then force himself on her. I haven't seen a single one of these people so concerned about protecting women even comment on this, let alone draw attention to it as something worthy of condemnation.
The hat listened to Harry when he said he didn't identify with Slytherin At this stage JK Rowling thinks the hat has been infected by the woke mind virus
@@goa5138 Unfortunately, it also listened to the kids who did identify with Slytherin, placing them in an evil echo chamber instead of giving them exposure to better influences and potentially turning their life around. Authoritarian-status-quo-maintaining haberdashery.
it kind of feels like - are women ALLOWED to be competitive? Even if we’re honorable / sportsmanlike it’s gloating, if it’s a moment of frustration then it’s crying/damsel in distress, if it’s too triumphant, it’s mannish and impolite - so much archaic policing
the eternal double standard set for women nothing a woman ever does is good enough. if she steps back, she’s trying to get people to do the work for her. if she puts in effort, she’s trying to get attention. it’s just an eternal list of traits that, no matter which way a woman goes, she can and will be judged for it. which is obviously unfair, aggressively so.
Stepping back, there's still even a lack of respect, expectation of competency or skill, and acceptance of one's seriousness for women trying to enter into most sports, especially as young girls. You will be grilled, policed, and pushed back, and have to do so much more to prove you really can and really want to play.
It's particularly frustrating that this is such a background feature of life that even in basic social spaces I see women who have done just a great job at something competitive automatically defaulting to pseudo-apologising for it. Like caring a lot or winning are somehow only for men.
Not me, a bi woman, learning today that "alphabet mafia" was supposed to be derogatory. XD I've been using that for years cause it sounds badass as hell.
The patent absusrdity of Logan Paul saying the Iman Khelif story is "the most evil thing unfolding before your eyes", in the middle of the Israel-Hamas war AND the Russian invasion of Ukraine AND the English race riots
It was SO fucking cathartic to hear you guys properly call out the shit show that is the IBA. I'm guessing I'm probably a minority in being a huge boxing fan, and former boxer, while also being a very outspoken trans ally who follows these issues very closely but this whole time, both sides of the argument were engaging with the same unproven claims. Even the allies were like "it's ok if she's intersex, we don't even know what effect testosterone has in these scenarios" etc and I'm like ok but we don't even KNOW that she's intersex or has elevated testosterone!!! Y'all even brought up how she beat Aminava 3 days before she was tested and disqualified. I literally exhaled a "thank you!" when Natalie said "anyone saying she has elevated testosterone or any xy chromosomes is engaging in pure conjecture" but of course y'all got it right
This entire fiasco made me think of that tweet that said something like “this is the butchest girl Twitter can handle” and it’s a picture of actress Vanessa Morgan,from Riverdale, sitting on a motorcycle and having dyed pink hair in two pony tails and a leather jacket. So many ppl were sharing a pic of Iman Khelif in a tux like it was some smoking gun.
Omfg as a former elite athlete in women's sport (Australian Rules Football)... None of us freaking care about transwomen in our sport, we care about our fucking sport. If people cared about women's sport, they would care about our access to our sports, our pay, the media throwing sexist crap at us. All these issues are way more prominent in women's sport, transwomen are very rarely, if ever, actually an issue. So the actual issues in women's sports. What women in sports care about is access and proper pay. I had to quit because I had to sleep well, eat well, exercise, recover, everyday. Every single day, it was more than a full time job, it was all encompassing and this is very difficult to express to people who haven't lived it. This is not to mention the constant training too. I was not getting paid for any of this at the second highest level (unlike the men) so I would need a part-time job to keep it all together, this was especially hard being from a lower-class background. The pay at the highest level is only enough to pay like a part-time job too... For a job that's a full-time job at best. So women in the sport would have a part-time job and sometimes children, on top of having to maintain themselves in an industry that teaches you that one misstep (like eating one bad meal or missing training because you can't afford transport) puts you behind all other athletes. I could have kept going but frankly, I just did not want to given the toll it takes on your mental health when you lack money for it. I haven't even touched on the differences in how the media interviews female athletes vs male... Usually women are just asked such out of pocket sexist comments that often don't even relate to their sport.
Who’d you play for? I watch the womens when I can (same as wnrl and wbbl). Hope you’re doing well after having to quit. I played nrl as a kid and had to stop as there wasn’t a girls league at the time and mixed stopped at 11) I’m so glad that’s not the case anymore. I would have played nrl instead of netball and hockey tbh. Also I’m so sorry about the pay bs. It’s pissed me off for years. I’ve talked about the injustice for so long. I’m just really glad womens games are being televised more and more often. I used to have yo go out of my way so hard to watch most womens sport other than netball and basketball.
yeah its basically virtue signalling smokescreen. they don't ACTUALLY care about the real issues, they jsut want an excuse to bully someone they're bigoted towards and make it seem like they're doing it for good reasons and not because they're bullies who want to hurt someone to feel powerful. Cause if they actually cared they'd be fighting for women sportsmen to be treated better, paid better and given better facilities etc etc etc rather than focus on shouting about women not matching their narrow worldview.
58:40 "This would not end even if there were no more trans people left. If trans people did not exist, they would have to invent them." THIS!! This is why Natalie is such a fantastically profound guest, I could not love her insights more.
@@mariamatedei It’s the same reason Irish people were considered non-white. In groups will create out groups to discriminate against. This is obvious to most people
Yes, throughout the whole discourse I’ve been reminded of Natalie’s excellent video essay on eugenics and reminding us that these people always go back to the skulls!
Imagine you’ve trained your entire life to be a boxer. You know full well the very likely physical danger you’re openly putting yourself in should you enter a match unprepared. You do this and you’re good enough to be considered one the best of your sport. You then try out to make an Olympic team to represent not only that sport, but the nation that supported you and you make the cut (an insane feat in itself). You are now fighting against the best the world has to offer and you do what the VAST majority of the world can NEVER say they have accomplished and win a Gold Medal. And the only thing so many people are talking about with your name on it……is your Chromosomes. I think that would shake me to my core being. Congratulations to Imane Khelif for her Gold Medal performance and I hope to see her perform again in the Olympics someday.
In Ireland we are mostly talking about how Kelly Harrington beat her once when it comes up,because we don't often have gold medal winners and when we do we are obsessed and bring them up every chance we get.
As an AFAB nonbinary person, I honestly think that the biggest reason I now identify is nonbinary is that I was bullied for being ‘a trans woman’ nearly my entire life. I still present exactly the same way I did before, I would say I ‘pass for a cis woman’, but I still get assumed to be a trans woman on at least a monthly basis. Women with long faces or broad shoulders will tell you the ‘trans treatment’ of cis women has been a thing for a cool minute if you don’t look right 🙄
Wanted to flag that imane was only told she failed the gender test at the worlds AFTER she beat the previously undefeated Russian boxer… by being disqualified (retroactively) the Russian boxer suddenly had an unblemished record again… Lin Yu-ting was also disqualified for failing some unexplained gender thing AFTER competing
@@pastlesandfish I follow multiple other sports & the Russians are so well known for shenanigans. I hope she sues that organization for setting her up for this abuse, too.
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 I really believe russian media is promoting this story as a cope for them not being allowed in the olympics this year. they frame their relationship with america/the west as "traditional vs woke" and EVERY video with an american female athlete is full of russian comments saying she must be a man - katie ledecky, simone biles, sha'carri richardson, even ones that are not really famous get it. it's disgusting
@@pastlesandfish russia, who we're suddenly trusting in this situation despite the literal invasion and war they're attempting and all the fascist shit they've been doing. SURELY THEY COULD BE DOING NO WRONG HERE.
TW: mention of abuse/SA When I ID’d as female (I’m trans now,) I was in a 4 year long abusive relationship with another woman. It all led up to her SAing me. Everyone from cops (no surprise there,) mental health workers, doctors, and paramedics questioned my experience. Their first questions were always about my abuser’s physical appearance (how tall/big was she, was she stronger, was she an athlete, etc.). It’s as if they can’t process that my abuser could harm me unless she had masculine traits.
Reminds me of the show 'Titus' where the titular character is constantly beat-up by his 5'2 Jewish girlfriend and his Dad tells everyone he (his son) gets into a lot of bar fights.
My favorite part of the Imane saga is the fact that the Italian boxer she beat is a COP!!! So of course she cried, she's not used to fighting someone who is legally allowed to hit back
In Italy there were a lot of jokes about this. One of them goes along the lines of "she's crying because cops are used to hitting poc in group, not 1v1"💀💀💀💀
They would definitely invent transfobia if it didn’t exist- my middle school teacher in Poland who is a cis woman got dragged out of a lavatory in Florida in the 90s because someone thought she was a man due to her short hair, height and weight. And when she told us about it in class as ‘the US is actually scary’ and people were excusing the violence because she wasn’t super feminine.
Yeah, if it really is about "keeping women safe", then why would there be a reason to marginalize real harm done to real women in the name of that safety.
When I was a teenage girl I was told to leave and stay away from the women’s bathroom by a male security guard who thought I was a teenage boy (he was nice about it but it was still upsetting). I was not trying to look like a boy or look masculine, but I just did naturally and I remember crying to my mum after because of how upsetting it was. I remember talking to transphobes about it and how their transphobia just makes it harder and at times more dangerous for cis women and girls who either choose not to conform or who can’t conform to more feminine beauty standards. They said it’s not their problem I’m ugly. lol they just hate women and girls. I feel much safer around trans women than around the judgmental transphobic women who’d cheer on men targeting women so long as the targets weren’t sufficiently “attractive” or “feminine” enough for their standards. Seeing how traditionally feminine some of the cis women they transvestite are I don’t really think any woman is safe. If you’re too feminine they just label you as a caricature as well. It’s ridiculous.
@@genericname8727 If you're masculine, you're "Obviously a man- just look at him!", if you're feminine, you're a "Characture of a real woman". The only way to win is to be born white and conventionally attractive.
I mean, considering that almost all of the trans-hate rhetoric has its roots in sexism and humiliation of gender non-conformity, and all of them are almost exactly the same talking points of the homophobia throughout 70s-2000s, yes, they would absolutely invent sth to be hateful about even if trans people didn't exist, as they did many times in the past
these people are narcissists who reflexively avoid deeper understanding, they are highly ignorant of everything and everybody outside their immediate circles
I put "she/her" in my tiktok bio, and had transphobes trying to transvestigate me in my comments. (I'm a cis woman with a large chest) My pronouns got them so upset, lol. They are so ridiculous. I'm glad that Imane is suing JK & Elon.
As a cis woman I'd never been misgendered until I started having my pronouns on my work badge. Suddenly, I had people intentionally (I'm assuming since nothing else changed) calling me he/him or referring to me as a man. It really threw me off the first time it happened, but it was mostly upsetting to me because I knew how they would treat some of my trans coworkers.
Also just adding the pov as someone with a martial arts background: any martial art, the training is usually mixed gender. Women and girls are used to getting hit by men and boys in training from the very beginning! The higher level competitions are gender segregated, but everyone starts out even competing with the opposite gender; it's based on age group, weight, and belt level before reaching black. Boys and girls start out training equally together, and they keep training together even after they stop competing against one another. The other thing with mastial arts is that you learn that your body can get hurt and hurt a lot and you still don't cry, from a young age you are taught to keep going because "you're opponent won't stop". Also, respect is HUGE. You know you and your friends will hurt each other in training everyday, and you learn not to take it personally. You laugh it off, you check in with each other, help each other when needed. You can't have an ego being bruises like your body. And this sort of comraderie extends to competitions. People are really nice and welcoming because we all know we're here to punch each other. Imane offering comfort was exactly the type of reaction I am used to seeing in the ring. The refusal to even shake her opponent's hand on Angelina's part is INCREDIBLY rude, unsportsmanlike, and 100% against everything you are taught from day one. Respect for your opponent is fundamental, recquired, and heavily enforced especially with young children just starting training who might get their ego's bruised. They don't bow in boxing, but in other arts we bow to each other right before a match, and right after. When she refused to shake hands my mouth dropped, I was shocked. Personally I think she backpedaled hard because everyone in the community called her out. It's just not part of the culture. It's practically a taboo tbh. Now I did a street self-defense art, kajukenbo (it's an acronym, and the -bo at the end stands for boxing). So we specifically trained to deal with opponents larger and stronger than us. The smallest girls would line up to spend time working with the big guys over 6' and 200lbs. Because that's the real world. And the guys were wonderful helping the girls out, because they wanted them to train so they would be safe in the real world. Now I'm not saying there isn't ever abuse in dojo's. I am lucky and I had a really wonderful community in mine. But I would say overall, the culture in martial arts is positive and supportive. And if you are known as someone with an ego, most coaches will stamp that out of you real fast. Shame on her and her coaches. I have taught children's classes and definitely talked kids through tears and hurt feelings over the years, because we do not allow that behavior going forward
I cry easily. I cry when I'm happy. I cry when I'm angry. I cry when I'm exhausted. I cry at old AT&T ads. I cry when I'm relieved something's over, good or bad, that I was holding in tension about. I cry when I succeed. I cry when I fail. All my important life moment photos feature my face twisted up & wet while clown-grinning bc I'm failing to control my body's default response to stress release while simultaneously trying to reassure + apologize + explain to another person I'm not crying bc of them or anything that has to do with them, it's just my dumb body. So I don't leap to conclusions about people crying at the Olympics. It's stressful & probably very surreal, very public + personal at the same time. I remember Euna Kim trying to explain her crying after the last time she skated in competition --- observers thought she was crying bc of the unfair scores since Russia reportedly conspired with judges to win & Euna Kim is considered to have given the best performance that day (last I checked there were still court cases & investigations in relevant organizations about that event). But Euna Kim has repeatedly said she was crying bc she was relieved that was the last time she'd ever have to skate/skate professionally. Her whole career was coming back to her in the moment, she knew it was over, & it was an overwhelming mix of emotions, many positive. She knew she skated her best & she knew she was done her career & would never again have to face the stress + discipline of training & competing at an elite level. So the Italian boxer crying shouldn't have been a big deal bc it could mean anything --- someone's having an intense private moment while in the public eye. Normally I give that a lot of grace. The actual big deal was the petulant gesture of refusing to shake an opponent's hand, giving up on the bout & not even TRYING to finish the competition, then on top of it all, giving press interviews playing up + into the racist/sexist/phobic rumours by introducing the idea of "unfairness" somehow. I have a hard time believing she's innocent in all this. Her + the Hungarian should be banned + fined. Any sports fan can tell stories of cheering on "good losers" as well as winners, & even if she couldn't win the bout, she could've respected herself, her sport, her country, her opponent, the fans, etc by staying in the fight & doing her best. I'm still side-eying the Italian boxer for laying out the table even if she didn't realize it'd attract a swarm of leopards to her dinner party. She laid that feast out lavishly, what did she expect? I think people let her off too easily with a BS weak-azz "apology" delivered way too late, designed to minimize the blame she deserves while she gets her face chomped by the leopards she set a buffet out for.
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426this is a long ass para for you to essentially agree. She was so rude and childish and although she couldn’t have predicted what came next she ate it up for her own benefit and has done nothing adequate to rectify the situation. I cry all the time too. But she could’ve cried and shook her hand and said something graceful instead of slandering her opponent. Unacceptable behaviour.
@@KatieLeydenIt’s ok to mostly agree with someone and also bring something else to the discussion. Not everything has to be an argument with starkly opposing sides.
this is barely relevant but your comment made me remember my mother yelling at me when I took taekwondo in 2nd grade for spreading my legs around the boys whenever we did stretches. 🤦i was so embarrassed in front of my peers and did not understand at ALL what she was so upset by lol, i was just trying to follow what my instructor told me to do ;-;
The fact that this began with a photo of Imane Khelif comforting her opponent after the match, an action which arguably embodies the "olympic spirit" really well, makes it even more ridiculous than it already was.
if you look up how many women athletes have 'failed' the gender determination test in the 2000s, its mostly women of colour, and primarily indian women. its so common here, they made a (not great) movie about it
This reminds me of the vilification French tennis player, Amelie Mauresmo, received, after coming out as gay. Lindsay Davenport said it was like playing against a guy, and Martina Hingis called Amelie, half man! Times have not changed, sadly, a proportion of society will always be looking out for a scapegoat and when it's the rich and powerful, it's even more deadly!
Still disgusting, but a little bit comforting to know all this has happened before. They came for gay people and now they're coming for trans people, but hopefully it'll pass eventually.
I find it interesting that some of the women running in track events often perform while presenting "feminine" (makeup and nails, etc.) still do not escape transphobia due to mysoginoir and their stellar perfomance.
It's weird to me that this conversation is also happening at the same time that a lot of online commenters are disparaging gymnasts as well, like Simone Biles for not having enough "grace" and focusing too much on scoring points through complex maneuvers. There's now a resergent online force trying more and more to force women into subservient aesthetic roles even in sports and it hurts to see it growing.
I am a very tall cis women (not athletic tho), and it really makes me uncomfortable how people question the gender of a women just because she does not fit their standarts of femininity. I had multiple instances where people misgendered me, especially when I do not wear make-up and wear baggy clothes. being misgendered can be very hurtful.
Having grown up in the rural midwest in the 90s, if you behaved in any way outside of traditional masculine norms you would be called a girl or a woman. Ask any theater kid of the era. Something as innocuous as reading a book at lunch could've been justification to get harassed for being effeminate. Nowadays these same folks could see a drag queen done up to the nines, or a gay man with makeup and their nails done and will scream in their face that "THEY ARE A MAN". Idk what my point is, but its something ive been thinking about lately.
and the crazy thing is that these same people also shamed girls for being too feminine. if we're talking rural rural, the ideal woman especially back then was essentially an idealized man (self-sufficient, able to perform medium-hard (farm, yard) labor within reason, mostly stoic, etc) but prettier to look at and with fewer rights.
The biggest, most masculine trans guy will still be a woman to them, but a cis woman with a slightly prominent nose and jawline will be called a man in a heartbeat. Similarly it doesn't matter how perfectly feminine a trans woman is, she'll always be a man to them, but a cis man who lets his daughter paint his nails will be called a woman. Misgendering is a blunt tool, but it's wielded carefully.
They are transvestigating Andrew Tate now too because he posted a pic of himself in speedos and it looked like he was tucking or something apparently 💀
Sooner or later they always eat their own. But it`s funny that they outed Andrew Tate having a small penis in the process. Which explains his ramapant misogyny.
Sooner or later they always eat their own. But it`s funny that they outed Andrew Tate having a small wiener in the process. Which explains his ramapant misogyny.
Sooner or later they always eat their own. But it`s funny that they exposed Andrew Tate to have a small wiener in the process. Which explains a lot about him.
Sooner or later they always eat their own. But it`s funny that they exposed Andrew Tate to be not endowed in the process. Which explains a lot about him.
I've never understood the "keep men out of women's sports" argument. I'm a petite woman who always played sports with men. I grew up playing soccer with my brothers and I was never in physical danger lol. Later, in my 20s, I had much better endurance than a lot of males I played sports against. I like being challenged. It's not like any man is automatically better than ANY woman. There's a lot of overlap. (I'm not talking professionals here, but there are so few trans athletes at the elite level that I think that's really not worth fear-mongering about).
It’s a lot easier to understand when you realize that people have to be sexists first before they can become transphobes. Sexists believe in a hierarchical society where men and women have clearly defined social roles (and men are superior by virtue of their gender). They view anything outside those traditionalist roles (single working women, no fault divorce, gay men, athletic women, etc) as a threat to that supposed superiority. Sexists, being deeply insecure people, crave that sense of superiority. All those threats are all the same thing to them. To them, there is no real difference between Imane Khelif being transgender, and being a masculine woman.
I have heard some people saying that was actually the point, that women's sports were separated from men's to preserve the narrative that men are always better, because women were starting to win against men. I haven't actually looked into it yet, though, so do take that with a grain of salt.
Hergie has seemingly made some weird comments about how people born with XY chromosomes should never compete in the women's division in the olympics(I assume any high level sport competitions). And some other thing about how athletes who compete in the women's division should never be allowed to compete if they "fail" a testosterone test(I think "fail" means if they have very high levels of T). I still think it's good that trans people are represented in sports. But he gives me slight Buck Angel vibes from the little I've read about him. Correct me if I got anything wrong btw ;-;
@@Itchy__where did you see this? That would be a terrible shame if true. All I heard about him was that he defended Khelif and the other Taiwanese boxer accused of being trans
Unfortunately there are also a large number of people who acknowledge that Khelif is a woman and agree that this entire story is based on lies, BUT they’ll also imply that if she really was trans/intersex/etc. then the abuse would’ve been warranted. They really can’t see that they’re part of the problem.
I've seen so many people online go "no she's a REAL woman, shes a biological woman, she has a cervix she's female." So many so called allies showing their ass
hello north african here, many of our women are built like that, and the out of proportion reaction and quickness to accusing Iman of being a man feels somewhat racist to our ethno group, the insult isn't the misgendering as much at is the prejudice behind it enforcing it
It is. I'm not at all used to seeing women like that that I wouldn't be surprised if the person had been trans (not in a judgmental way, just in a for the information I have, it would make sense) which just goes to show how ignorant I am on the subject of what different body types women can come in because my view is very limited to what I see on the daily, especially with concerns in my culture about women growing "too many muscles" (as if they're easy to just grow, which anyone would tell them, that's NOT how it works) because they're told to not look "mannish". I'm glad that you said it's common, because it's something I just flat out was unaware of until reading your comment and shows obvious holes in my knowledge. No doubt there are many like me regarding this too.
The book was entirely made of red flags, we were just too young to understand. "A world where there are categorically evil people, as part of their inherent nature." "The special cast of wonder people ARE inherently better than the dull masses. Being openly cruel to them is fascism, but subtly constructing society to keep them in their place is a goos thing." "Slaves are better off in slavery, they just turn to drink otherwise." "No social reform is needed when an entire society aligns with an evil fascist and becomes a police state. Just remove the one bad guy and everything is fine again." "The banks are run by a secretive group of naturally greedy monster people who always ally with evil." I'm sure there is more.
@@DisgruntledPeasantthe statue in the ministry of magic always gave me a bad feeling. A human magic user above all other magical creatures, deliberately portrayed as superior to everyone else.
@corvoattano44 That's the point tho. Harry notes that the statue of the witch and wizard surrounded by simpering elves, goblins, and centaurs made him feel uncomfortable. But it's a symbol of status quo. The ministry was never progressive. It was always racist and classist and pro segregation. Voldemort is defeated and nothing changes because status quo good as long as you keep quiet about your bias and prejudice.
I think what happened with Imane really made people aware of just how all encompassing jk misogyny is. It’s not just trans women, it’s anyone who doesn’t precisely fit the mould of what she thinks womanhood should be. It makes anyone who isn’t exactly what she thinks a woman is a target.
every part of this discussion is making me so speechless.. what is even going on? There are also more female olympic athletes who got accused of being male. Ilona Maher being one of them. And every comment section of any muscular female fitness influencer is also full of this crap. It’s like they keep fabricating new ways to be horrible to women
i realized immediately that Natalie was talking about seeing Ilona's video on twitter-- i sometimes see her posts on instagram, so i know for a fact that she has been dealing with misogyny and misdirected transphobia regarding her appearance for a long time, which made it all the more heartbreaking to see her crying in that video. i think she mentioned that she just feels very strongly about women being able to present themselves however they want, not that she was upset to the point of tears by the abuse, but just the fact that she still has to deal with all of it is so fucked up
Not to mention the actual controversy should be why did the Netherlands accept a pedophile (someone that actually did things to a 12 year old girl) to represent them in an event (beach volleyball in this case).
@@crazyluigi6664you see a black woman beating a white woman in the olympics is wrong and impossible and erasing women, but we will gladly look the other way when an actual convicted child groomer is allowed in the olympics. because we care so much about protecting the kids and all that
I know we want to be understanding and compassionate for Angela Carini, but im an Italian living in Italy, and shes sponsoring our current governament (Giorgia Meloni) that is far right with an openly fascist past/tendencies. Not only did the fascist politicians congratulate her for "standing up for her rights", but she was happy about having their support. So i wouldnt be so fast at giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I know this is a tangent, but I also believe the VAST majority of men and women are at the physical and sport level where they can and do happily play sport in coed leagues. I, a fully grown adult, am currently on a coed soccer team, and a coed flag football team. I have also done coed boxing. Plenty of times the best player on these teams have been women, because we're not Olympians, we're just normal people, and plenty of normal women are better soccer players than normal men. I'm all for women's sports, but the concept that men and women can never enjoy playing together and against each other is wild to me. And the whole conversation about 'trans men in women's spaces' is creeping in that direction, like, JK Rowling, do you know MOST women who play sports play coed??
I would agree that this applies to everything but elite levels. I've had a number of women best me in several sports I play and I'm not ashamed of it. They train harder and they're better at it. 😂
in this conversation i had a man self-proclaimed "feminist" tell me that it was unfair to match men and women in sports because men have such an immense upperhand that most men would win against any woman. This fucking psychos went so "feminist/protect women" that they went all the way back to women are inferior and that shit makes me so angry because i have seen it underneath the gender discourse but i didnt think they would come and just say it outloud, my lil brother said stuff like that when he was 5, not 20 something and he got cleared up reall quick by myself
I relate to this. I played soccer in grade school and I overall preferred the years where I was part of coed teams rather than the girls only teams. I feel like the idea that physical differences between men and women being so great as to cause a noticeable difference in their physical performance while playing sports, is extremely over inflated and bordering on truism.
I've done swimming my whole life, and although men and women basically always compete separately, they often train together. I've been on several co-ed teams and one all-women team. Definitely preferred training with both genders! Just makes things more interesting lol.
JK Rowling is like everyone's least favorite Aunt. You can block her all you want but somehow someway at least once a month she gets a little loaded on supermarket wine and goes on an online tirade that you'll hear about one way or another
I am so thankful for channels such as this and contra, as a CIS male truth be told I don't really think much about gender and I think it is super healthy to participate, hear and listen to those people who are being affected in the world via yuk time policies set up to marginalize them. The amount of education, entertainment and philosophical thought process you provide is just excellent and I am so very thankful I live in an age where access to voices and intellect such as yourselves is something available to not just me but to everyone who needs to hear it, whether they chose to or not. TLDR: Thank you.
I hope Imane Khelif takes JK for all she has, as well as the others who did what they did. Its time the wealthy and famous, including regular people, to be held fully accountable and responsible for what they do and say online, in person, in the media, spreading misinformation, lies and hatred is not covered by any free speech bs, say it, write it, and suffer the legal consequences for that. Good luck Imane Khelif, I hope you win gold for handing all these haters their collective asses when you win your legal action.
It's literally slander and can absolutely hold up in court. You can't say unfounded things that can damage a persons reputation. Free speech doesn't mean free from law and there are LOTS of laws regarding speech that spreads lies, hatred, incites violence and panic. You can't shout "fire" for shits and giggles for a reason. People who think free speech means they get to say whatever with out consequence are really just saying they want to be able to trample all over everyone else's freedoms, freedoms to not have violence, hatred, panic or lies thrown at them.
Obsessed with this video, I was actually lightly transvestigated in middle school when I “looked like a boy with his hair grown out” and I hadn’t gotten my period.
I'm sorry that happened to you in school. School is the cruelest place! The girls used to say I was pregnant, from time to time, because I have a lot of belly fat. We all get our abuse I guess. People talk about you but never to you. 😢
My cousin (a cis woman) has always had short hair, and as a girl she has been regularly bullied out of women's / girls' bathrooms and changing rooms on the sole basis of her short hair. She was one yelled at by an adult at a swimming pool, and in school she was bullied by the other girls into exposing her body. Even these days, she gets misgendered very often, *despite* her very feminine appearance (except for her short hair). She was called "sir" when she was 8 months pregnant. Her and her husband frequently experience homophobia because people think they're a gay couple. The shit she tells me is *INSANE*.
If I were a billionaire, I would just hire her to decorate all of my rooms in the Sims 4 for me, lol! Wasn't she one of the geniuses who popularized bisexual lighting? That shit was revolutionary!
5:20 thank you for always making sure we have the full context before diving into the discussion, it makes the discussion much more meaningful for me. I appreciate all your hard work, and thank you for bringing us so many fascinating long-form sessions like this 💕
As a teen I saw J.K Rowling as an incredibly smart, eloquent, powerful and open-minded feminist, she represented everything I wanted to become. I truly grew up admiring her. I was incredibly confused when she first started leaning towards transphobic rethoric and the more she was radicalizing, the more a dissonance developped in my mind. I couldn't even begin to comprehend how someone that I perceived to be empowering for women, could endorse such harmful speech with so much passion and hate. I genuinely struggle to even put into words what it does to my brain but I became obsessed with trying to comprehend the process of it all. Your discussion and unpacking of the whole story just helped me alot with processing the absurdity of the situation. I'm not as articulate as you both but I wanted to say that hearing you talk in great lengths about how none of it makes sense, how we can't even have any type of reasonable conversation with these people, validated my sentiment and confusion. I'm always going to feel frustration and some type of anger when reading her tweets but now I know that I need to move on from this serious case of bigotry and focus on people who are ready to listen and learn from others. That was a great episode, thank you !
When I was younger I also used to look up to her. But the truth of the matter is - we don't know her. We probably only saw her public persona. She was likely always like this. Not a serious trustworthy person
I think what might help is that, like, there are some people who will profess certain beliefs and know exactly why they hold those beliefs and exactly how deep they are and where other priorities might conceivably over-ride them. And then there's people who will profess certain beliefs without any real understanding of the beliefs or of themselves, simply because their idea of "good person" includes professing those beliefs. And those are the ones you have to watch out for.
I understand this :/ I was very similar to this, as a kid. So when the mold woman began her loud & proud terf tirade, as a queer person who used to look up to her, it felt personal
She created a series we could see ourselves at home in. But the truth is that her series was always very sexist and prejudiced, we just didn't notice it at first because we fell in love with the characters or the setting. But it's easy to find the flaws on re read. Perhaps we always should have known what the author was like.
Hearing about all the "failed gender test" stuff that supposedly came up always makes me think of when my hormones were tested as a teenager. I was trans (ftm) when I came out to my parents they didn't want it to be true so they kind of grasped at straws to find a "reason" I would be feeling this way. Including taking me to a family doctor that tested my levels and lectured me at length about how I would grow out of this phase because she was also a tomboy when she was younger and didn't think she wanted kids (not what I was talking about) and then she got older and settled etc etc. The test showed my T levels were slightly elevated but even that doctor admitted it's not that unusual for some cis women / AFAB individuals to have slightly elevated T levels for a variety of reasons. Also fun to note that it's a lose-lose situation. If you are AFAB and identify as a man or non binary, having high T might be used to dismiss you as "Ah, it's just because your hormones are imbalanced that you think you feel this way" but if you are AFAB and identify as a woman with high T suddenly its "you must secretly be a man". Can't f-king win with these people.
I remember the moment I heard about this. I saw a headline that included "Algerian transgender boxer" and just a random trans guy, I immediately knew it was bs. There _are no_ Algerian trans folk. Not out, transitioned and representing their country on a freaking international stage at least. The fact that bloody _journalists_ didn't stop to think about this for even 30 seconds is truly disturbing. I don't like blaming social media for all the world's woes, but this on, yeah. In a world where news cycles can be measured in minutes and hours, even stopping for a minute for fundamental research can impact views and engagement to the tune of thousands. Compared to even just 10-20 years ago when news was happening at the end of day or the next morning due to early morning publishing or evening news. But seriously.... LGBT supremacy in a conservative Muslim country? Get real.
@CorwinFound And then millions of people accept it as fact. It's so, so scummy and irresponsible of the news outlets and it is just so depressing to watch, even more so when you're British and most of your news is already some of the sleaziest, grossest, most oversensationalised slop on the planet 🥲
Transphobia was always really stupid, but seeing shit like transvestigating of Andrew Tate or stating that Dylan Mulaney was secretly born female and transitioned back, like.... they have lost the plot
I think what makes this especially tragic is that while I agree with you that the people starting these debates don't really care about fairness in sports, the people who eventually pick it up - everyday laypeople, people looking to have a conversation at the dinner table - do. It's just that they start off with the wrong information because they've only learned of the situation from the aforementioned malicious actors, and they are much too overconfident to recognise their lapse of knowledge in biology, genetics, and the social issues at play. I've talked to a lot of well-intentioned people about this "debate" who I think really do care about fairness in sports. And it was almost exclusively me correcting them or educating them, followed by them returning to "well ok I didn't know that, but it's still not fair". Actually, Khelif isn't trans. Actually, there is no evidence that she has higher testosterone levels than regulations allow. Actually, the supposed "gender test" was administered by a corrupt organisation and its details were never released, so we don't know her chromosomes either. Actually, intersex women don't necessarily have stronger musculature/build than non-intersex women. Actually, "fairness" is more complex than you think, especially in the context of top-level sports, where by the nature of it being top-level, only the most physically advantaged people ever even get to qualify. What constitutes an unfair advantage is an incredibly complex topic that everyone thinks they're qualified to weigh in on, but very few people are. And even fewer people recognise the collateral damage of putting trans and intersex women's place in a women's space up to public debate. Even if you're just trying to be fair, you have to be very specific in your language lest you insinuate that trans or intersex women aren't women. I've seen a lot of commentary about this issue regarding transphobia, but I'm shocked at how few people recognise how damaging this debate is to intersex women and the rampant interphobia being thrown around. There's been all kinds of specuation about what condition Imane might have, her chromosomes and sex characteristics, and whether that makes her a "male" or not. I'm not intersex myself, but having several intersex friends (including cis women) I can't imagine the horror of reading these takes and realising that they're also just a step away of having their womanhood invalidated. It's disgusting. I believe that with the absolute lack of credible evidence it's futile to debate whether Imane is intersex or not (she doesn't identify as such, but many people only find out their intersex status later in life). But I do want to say that even if she is, she is still 100% a woman, and that I've very much been missing that angle in leftist takes on this whole charade. We must acknowledge that this is not just - or I would argue, not even primarily - an issue of transphobia. It's also an issue of interphobia being picked up by already transphobic people, who are now reusing and mapping their transphobic rhetoric onto intersex people as well. And of course racism.
If I think about the conservatives I've known, if I think about my extended family... And how they'd debate this or how they've reacted to trans people... Nah, I have to strongly disagree that for them it is just about fairness. They might not have the passionate anger or disgust behind their questions or comments that some of these talking heads do. But it is still motivated by a deep discomfort and lack of curiosity around trans people. These people had to read the same posts and articles we do and have overlooked the vitriol that we haven't.
I mean, every transphobic person is also interphobic. I suppose the distinction is important in some contexts, but you can't really separate the two (with maybe the rare exception being the weird take where intersex people are uniquely able to chose their identity while perisex trans people can't, but that still ends up in making up criteria for which intersex people are actually intersex and I suppose we're back at the start again, but this is a whole other tangent bye). Like, hating trans people, hating intersex people, hating women and hating POC is all relevant here and all of the above flow smoothly into one another, it's hard to point out when bigots are doing a particular thing because they're doing all of them at once. That said, I do realize intersex people are often skipped over in mainstream discussions so I'm not trying to further push them under the rug, it's just that I always see interphobia walking in lockstep with transphobia, they're fundamentally interlinked in my experience
I'm just getting into the first 5 minutes and went looking for whether there was commentary about Hiltz. She had a very good showing in what was an incredibly, historically deep field in the 1500 and did some interviews at the Trials & at the games themselves along the way.
I hope you have Natalie on at LEAST once a season....like every 3 months. I love you both, but your chemistry together is just magic. And Natalie's monthly Patreon videos aren't enough! My first viewing is always for the fun informative aspect. But then I'll watch these again, several times, for the pure ASMR of it all. :)
I feel like noting a little something extra about how the "gender critical" definition of woman has slid from "adult female human" to "producer of the large gametes" to "what I see" - Their definitions have always assumed a position of being more precise and scientific than the trans position of "I know my own gender". What they are now (openly) stating is "No, I know your gender," which throws all previous posturing out the window. This may seem like a distinction without a difference, but I truly think this marks a huge turning point. Either they've jumped the shark in the eyes of polite society or they've reached the tipping point where they can be open about their intent to harm all women who don't meet their arbitrary feminine standards, rather than treating that harm as unfortunate collateral in their fight to "keep women safe".
This is the most open moment of people shifting the goal post to be straight up hateful I've seen in recent times.. Aside from trump propaganda maybe. Usually they try to sorta hide it, this is not even close they are just saying they don't care anymore whatever they say is now the truth 😭
I have a job thats physically demanding and I vividly remember the day I was finally strong enough to lift a transmission by myself. I looked over at a more experienced co-worker and smiled brightly because I was proud and I thought he might be happy with my progress. He shook his head and said "I hope you know how unattractive that is" ....dude... I was having a moment
Yeah it start so early too :') being 5 and hearing that the teacher needs "big strong boys" to help move something 🥲. If we discourage girls from physical activity esp strength building ofc lots of weak women exist 😂. they want women to be weak and dainty so they feel bigger and stronger
@@Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh This! Teachers said this to us at the exact same time my parents were building a house themselves and I (a 11 to 14 year old girl) had to help at the building site. I literally had to carry bags of cement and do all kinds of heavy work at home only to be told at school: "We need a strong boy to carry this". Ridiculous! I didn`t even know what feminism was at that time, but I knew what was happening didn`t make sense. It was really clear that they asked the boys in order to affirm their egos and to put these gender roles in place. I never publically protested against the "we need a strong boy to carry this" because it was totally clear that none of the boys would have liked me any more, they would have seen it as an insult against their manliness. You learn very early as a girl to not outshine boys in certain things, because otherwise the boys will hate you and the girls will not like you because "you behave like a boy". There is really a teaching and learning of these gender roles going on in the teenage years.
Funny how heterosexual life, supposedly the most natural and rational expression of the erotic, discourages the female physical strength that helped our species survive. I've heard more than my fair share of comments like this.
Transvestigation goes to show that so many people have no earthly clue how the human body works, and have no clue what “transitioning” really involves.
this case really needs to be used and spread as much as possible because it really shows how irrational these people can get. No Joanne... she is not a man just because she is not an english feminine lady, which appears to be your definition of women
i really cant believe so many people seem to think men really are super human beings, the way they talk about the inherent strength differences between men and women just show what kind of fantasy worlds they live in
and that women are always in need of saving, petite small damsels in destress. as if these competitors aren't signing up for the literal olympics of boxing. its so misogynistic and weird
The dudes in my family really latched on to some supposedly true "news story" they all remember of a women's pro soccer team who was apparently beaten in a friendly competition by a boys high school team. It's help up in our family as "the ultimate proof that even a professional woman isn't as good as a teen amateur boy, athletically, bc biological essentialism". The story details change enough that I understand there must be an element of urban legend to it, but it's been raised to this unimpeachable Truth in the family lore. I hate it sooooooooo muuuuuuuch.
@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 This sounds similar to a story Shaun tore apart a while back! He discussed it in a video called "Paul Joseph Watson is wrong about: Sports" or something like that.
That pisses me off so much because it obfuscates actual biological things going on. It's not incorrect (as far as I know. Anyone versed in biology, if what I learned in school is actually wrong, please let me know) to say that people influenced by testosterone, which usually are men due to testosterone encouraging typically masculine type traits, tend to be able to build more muscle, especially in the upper body which could be conducive in certain sports, but isn't a be all end all. They use a pin prick portion of real evidence based science and then run away with it into crazy propaganda land. It's like watching religious persons argue scientifically about a god or gods that have no defined parameters with which to measure if they even exist and saying "it's just science." No. Stop. Stop making a completely different argument to try to seem like your point somehow has more "value" because people actually trust in the scientific method. It's so freaking insidious because it ruins the credibility of facts and evidence that don't have some kind of agenda. The entire point of science and evidence is just to find out what is going on, not what that specifically means. Eugenicists did the same crap trying to prove that there was some inherent value based on race. You can't have very mild benign differences with out people attributing greater meaning or "proof" of something. It's so frustrating. Many cultures thought men were the advanced improved version of humans. See the Greeks. The shitty thing is someone could take the information that they were also fine being gay and spin it to be anti-gay or some other dumb agenda instead of just "Humans have had a wide variety of made up reasons to think x or y (pun not intended, though kind of funny considering the conversation.) and correlation is not causation. Sometimes a simple fact about something doesn't mean there is some grand design or connection to anything else. Humans struggle with that though. It's why we fall into conspiracy theories. We have a very hard time not thinking everything is connected or on purpose or has any meaning.
""Even if transphobia escalated to the point here they literally rounded up and shot every tarns person... that still wouldn't be the end of transphobia. If trans people didn't exist, they would have to invent them, and they're doing it." vey wise comment from Nathalie, and it reminds me of the old witch hunts. There well have been some actual shamans targeted, but there weren't many of those, so they completely made up accusations about people- usually women- who they saw as non-conforming or they anted to get rid of for any reason.
if gender critical stopped existing tomorrow, the lives of trans and cis people would improve massively if trans people stopped existing tomorrow, the gender critical people would move on to screeching about “the gay issue”
Even if Rowling did fact check the IBA, she doesn’t have a problem with the Russian state anyway. Putin has spoken sympathetically of her… A terrific endorsement to have for sure
@@overgrownkudzu Probably would be something like 'While we may differ in some of our beliefs, you have my utmost respect and I thank you wholeheartedly for your support.'
A little late to comment, but towards the end when you and Natalie were talking about the transvestigating groups and the Dylan Mulvaney F-M-F "theory," I would like to point out that does actually happen to intersex people-- some of us are forcibly assigned a gender in infancy, get non-essential surgeries, and then we "transition back" in later life. I am fortunate to not be one of those people, but I will be coining the term "double flipper" as a joke about myself because I went through two puberties on my own HAHA (more like 1.5, but that's a long story). But I think it's very interesting these people are so up in arms about "forced gender transition in childhood," when this is literally still happening in the US to intersex kids, non-consensually and for non-medical reasons. I don't see them up in arms about this, ever. There's a reason our su*cide rate is 7x more than the average population. This shows you what they really care about.
We've been saying for so long how these anti trans talking points were going to hurt not only trans women but cis women in the long run, it's so sad to see this happen worldwide under the guise of protecting women. Just sad.
They don't care, anymore than the "save the children" crowd actually cares about children. They're just panicking and don't feel safe, so they need targets. Most reactionary BS is scared insecure people who buy into some "ism" because they don't have anything else solid in their lives. There are some fantastic rabbit hole videos on UA-cam about how people fall into alt-right ideology and how it grows. It's about community. Having something to see as a target to explain their inner fear and uncertainty about the world. "It's not a complex economic system that's outgrown itself into a cancer. It's not a species that has some how haphazardly evolved so far beyond itself and it questions and demands to know why it exists and if it itself is worthy of it. It's not that people actually want what is best and are all trying in different ways to achieve that. It's not various factors at play that all lead up to an unsatisfying frustrating conclusion. No, no our problems are the gays! - the trans! - the blacks! - the women! - the scapegoat!" THEY'RE the problem. So fight with us, and we'll create utopia!" - That's the playbook, that's the mentality, that's fear speaking that morphed into hatred. It's an easy answer to the issues everyone feels. People need a target when they're scared, otherwise, reality is too much to handle. There are also lots of videos talking about how it's not uncommon for alt-right down to conservative mindset, at least in politics is often about quite literally denying reality in favor of what they want to be true. It's a psychological mind field with real world consequences. More people genuinely need hugs and love from their parents. Security and confidence instilled into them so that they don't turn to anything they can to find acceptance and community. Insecurity breeds people to find easy fixes.
In THE image Imane is doing everything “right,” consolation as to be sportsman like, but with a neutral and empathetic face as to not come off condescending or insulting to the opponent. But because it’s a little white woman that lost people see what they want to see. She did everything she could have done and still was targeted. Edit: I’m not meaning to implicate Angela Carini as being any more than an image in this. I agree she was a sore loser and had a hand in creating this situation because of that, but that is all.
It was a pleasure to listen to two smart, thoughtful people. Appreciate Matt’s notes and research. The way Natalie can just relay these powerful observations that sum up the ridiculousness of these people. Well done both, such a well needed video to cut through this toxicity
Imagine there was a male dominanting boxer with the perfect genetic mutation for boxing. Grows really tall and strong, barely feels any pain (genetic mutations like these exist). There wouldn't even be a discussion about how "unfair" this is to other athletes. We just have to live with the reality, that sports is literally not a level playing field. It's also amazing to witness the people who usually dgaf about equality on an economic and political level being so worked up about how naturally high testosterone levels in women is "just not fair" to the other fair maidens. Also, if the IOC continues to use testosterone levels as the marker for gender, consequentially there will have to be biological males with low testosterone competing against biological women. Because that's the logical consequence of such a rule.
That what I was thinking about, in a reverse situation the male would be celebrated worldwide, invited to interviews, meeting with celebrities, have his own shoeline but in womens sports every woman has to be at the same skillset? If your opponent is losing should you hold back so you don't hurt their ego? It doesn't make sense
That's because people like that think they're "throwing a bone" for women to compete at all. It's infantilizing and dehumanizing. This is why I think the sex division of it actually furthers more of this mentality and women's sports are both underfunded for exposure and they are under paid routinely in almost every sport. Even if men or people with very high testosterone will dominate, simply due to more muscular capability, then oh, well, they do anyway. But if some women are on the team because their weight class or some other physical division aspect gets them in, they'll have to be paid more attention to, because they are in that class. it's well known that women's sports aren't generally taken seriously and there is always contention in their outfits, which just doesn't happen in men's sports anywhere near as much.
everytime this stuff comes up I think about goddamn Shaq. He can hold a basketball almost like frekaing a tennis ball. Most of the big professional basketball players don't have hands like his. Ofc it's a physical advantage. Does anyone ever suggest we disqualify him for his "biological advantages"? No. Because guess what, humans are not all the same. Using your individual strengths is part of being a good athlete. I'm tired of this whole "poor girls are gonna be beaten up by men 😢". Women that do combat sports and martial arts hurt each other ALL THE TIME.
I was really disappointed to learn that "transvestigating" wasn't trans people driving around in a van solving mysteries
In a better timeline
New headcanon unlocked: the Scooby-Doo gang is all trans
Omg that’s literally what I imagined too XD
I mean. Be the change you want to see, right?
That would be much better
"The purest form of evil" says the man who filmed in the suicide forest in Japan.
Also doing the cryptozoo scam and the crazy long-term effects afterward from it.
Content at all costs.
Hasn't he been credibly accused of abuse toward women himself, or was that his creepy brother?
AND had 7 iirc of his pets die under his care. He is a monster and he shouldnt be passing judgements on anybody.
🤢🤢🤢
🙅🏾♀️🙅🏾♀️🙅🏾♀️
also defended his r@pist brother
Russian media screaming "A man punched a woman with no consequences!" Meanwhile Russia having no law preventing domestic violence has been kind of funny to me
Also invading another country, killing kids and raping women. They have no place to talk about Olympics whatsoever
Yep, they used to but they decriminalized it. Domestic violence by Russian men is a huge problem in Russia
@@kimthegreywhy did they decriminalize it?? like what was the justification and argument for that? obviously the intent of the decision is clear, but how do they justify this to those who have women in their lives that they want to protect?
@@kaylahowe2491they said it was about protecting the family from outside intervention
@@kaylahowe2491 they said its about fastening the trial and helping victims out with the burocrasy.
in 2017 putin decided that the first-time assault is kinda okay (and will be prosecuted as a administrative overstepping), and only second time shall be criminally punished. so, its not completely absent, but now has all the victims in a very tricky place, when their abuser will pay the court-ordered fine and return to home, more volitale and angry.
I remeber someone commenting "JKR is one bottle of gin away from tweeting that people of color can't be women", and I remember thinking it was a funny hyperbole. But like we're getting closer and closer to that tweet, this whole controversy is madness to me.
These days reality keeps one uping jokes and comedian's work. Human imagination can't reach the levels of bonkers that happening around us.
TERF ideology is ultimately just roundabout white supremacy. Kellie-Jay Keen is a perfect example of this.
Couple years ago I went at it with a guy online who insisted Idris Elba couldn't be Bond because he's not British. When I said he is in fact British, the person countered that Elba's father was born elsewhere so somehow that meant he was as well. I pressed him further on what the characteristics of Bond are and how none of them are contingent upon his skin color, and the other person continued arguing that Bond must be high class and Elba could never pass for that. Essentially their arguments boiled down to, "Elba can't be Bond because you must be White to be Enlgish, and Black people are too low-class."
I guess she finally opened up that bottle of gin
Somewhere in Scotland, a cork has been popped
To Natalie’s line about the racism and the dehumanization of Imane, someone made a very good point about how nonwhite athletes are not simply described as good at what they do like their white counterparts, it’s often through terms like “beast” and “animal”. It runs deep.
wow I never considered that, good point
Yes this and their hardwork is never recognized. Their success is often only attributed to "raw talent" which... ofc they're talented but they also worked very hard to get where they are.
And that's just another byproduct of people dehumanizing them and viewing them as primitive.
Serina Williams being accused of "being a man," ties into this, too.
Where Racism, Sexism, and Transphobia can meet.
I haven't experienced racism, so I can't speak to that.
But I know she's a human being, who is good at her sport. If anything, those who dehumanized her were more beasts than she was.
Like. It would be nice if people could just grow up. Stop being such dillholes for a while
They never really acknowledge them as actually earning it or working hard, but it being somehow innate to them. Which is also what downplays meritocracy against POC. So whenever Conservatives argue anything about merit they don't assume a POC has it. It just means white. So then they think if there is a demand for more inclusive representation, they argue its only because of racial optics. Its never stated that they worked for it.
Simone Biles is often called a beast??? Jordan Chiles and Suni Lee all got called animals last week.
"This woman had her dreams crushed fighting for her deceased father" because Imane doesn't have dreams or was fighting for her family who lived in poverty and use to be against her dreams and was selling scrap metal to attend trainings.
And what about the dreams _this_ woman crushed? Like Ms. Bronze didn't have dreams of bringing home the Gold.
Exactly! It’s competitive sport and not everyone winds up placing in many tournament styles. The fact that they got to be competing Olympians is already supposed to be a prize, though one you sadly are not well compensated for most often.
The sheer absurdity of this framing is our of this world. Right wingers are certified snowflakes it's insane.
A VERY important layer to this is also Imane is from Algeria, a country that is very hostile to trans people, both in culture and in the law, so what JK did here is not just internet bullying, it is very sincerely risking Imane's life when she returns home, and the entire internet is calling her trans. I very truly worry about her safety now. It put a target on her back in one of the riskiest places on Earth to be a trans person. (And Imane did not sign up for that battle in any way, given she did not transition)
fortunately they has her back even before she won her gold! Algeria's president said the honored algerian women and algerian boxers. She actually has great support at home.
i don’t think trans people are hated there..they’re just not known about. it’s important to know that Algerians are just regular human beings like people in the west. they aren’t born to “hate” lgbtq+ people. they’re just not known about, thus causing ignorance. just like americans honestly.
@@ElaEllx3there’s still crazies tho. she’s definitely going to have a different experience going home
Fortunately Algerians are very supportive of her and are comfortable calling this case what it is, racist, though some have been doing that in their own queerphobic way. I saw some dude say that she was so hated by the west for "defying the rainbow flag" and Algerians online keep making sure westerners understand they "only have 2 genders", when the reason she is hated is because she accidentally defied whatever nonsense the western gender binary convienently molds itself into to win the culture war. They aren't as comfortable calling this an instance of a cisgender woman experiencing transphobia because of misogyny, unfortunately.
We, collectively, will not learn from this case as much as we would hope.
@@daemia9472 >Iman is Algerian, then why doesn't Iman wear hijab like other Algerian women? It is a strictly Muslim country.
Because the hijab isn't mandatory in her country ??? The ancient french colonies in north africa are muslim country but not theocracy, they don't enforce charia law, and it's not uncommon for women there to not cover their hair.
But good job giving your opinion on something you know nothing about, just more proof that people in this controversy don't give a fuck about women safety and are just jumping on the last opportunity to be racist piece of shit.
Not finished watching this yet but I can’t believe this video came out today - today I was kicked out of the women’s bathroom by two other women at a hospital because I was accused of being a man. I am a cis women, I have no hair because of illness. It was so dehumanising, I couldn’t do anything to prove that I am cis woman in the moment. They were looking me up and down as I told them I am a woman as if they were analysing every part of my body. One of the women said to the other “I think he might actually be a woman” and the other said “no he isn’t” - in the end I just left out of embarrassment and used the disabled bathroom (ironic, I’m not disabled in a way that would require me to use the disabled bathroom) - this video is kind of comforting after the day I had today. Thanks guys
That's horrifying, I'm sorry you went through that.
I'm so sorry that happened to you! What an awful thing to experience on top of being unwell and in hospital. Don't let those idiots get to you. You focus on yourself and your health and being kind to yourself. Not having hair does not diminish you in any way, gendered or otherwise. ❤
Damn, that's horrible. Sorry that happened to you. If someone tried to pull that on me in a woman's bathroom, I'd literally raise hell. Those ladies that kicked you out were lucky you're a saint. Hope you're doing well, and praying for your recovery 🙏🙏
That is absolutely horrific. I am so sorry that happened to you! No one should be made to feel that way. What a f***ing disgrace
Sadly, this will likely only get worse for the foreseeable future. Gender policing genuinely seems like it's reaching a paranoid fever pitch. The category of woman is becoming tighter and tighter to an absurd extent, while apparently man is just anyone that doesn't fit that increasingly narrow definition. This doesn't just affect trans or genderqueer people, cis-women are going to be hurt just as badly as conservatives push for their body to be policed, assessed, and categorized.
My tween, cis boy is small for his age, has long hair and a wardrobe that includes some feminine-perceived elements, and is regularly misgendered by strangers. Every time he uses a public bathroom alone I hold my breath a little, worried some "transvestigator" is going to decide he doesn't belong there. These people make every single person on the planet less safe.
As a somewhat effeminate trans man living in the southern USA, most people in the mens room do not care about what’s going on in there. It’s (thankfully for me) a much less policed space than the women’s room. It’s still kinda scary and I still hate using public restrooms but I hope that eases your mind a little :)
This just goes on to show how transphobia doesn't end at trans people and is ultimately rooted in toxic heteronormative standards.
Yep. That’s coz women aren’t a physical threat to women but men are a threat to women. Love the way you make it sound like it’s like coz women are just ‘crazy’ you wouldn’t have to worry at all if the trans ideology hadn’t taken over the western world and now we are naturally forced to view everyone in a single sex space with suspicion. So your fears are a direct result of the trans cult.
@@BeTeeElsecond this! in my experience cishet men in general really dislike the idea of possibly misgendering someone (especially someone more masculine presenting). a lot of the bathroom scare is centered around trans women "invading" womens restrooms, being inherently labeled as a threat for being assigned male at birth. haven't ever really experienced any bathroom transphobia in the 5+ years i've been out, and i've travelled multiple times internationally.
i hope your son knows how loved he is ❤❤ being confident enough to express your divine femininity as a kid is something i'm thankful i got to experience as a transmasculine person.
not many cis men get that chance as a kid, i'm so thankful you are letting him present more femininely as a boy.
This reminds me of my teenage, 40 yrs ago in Paris, when as a long-hair teen I was systematically misgendered at the bakery downstairs from my apartment building. The lady at the counter would always asked me "Et pour la demoiselle, ça sera quoi?" [Lit: "And for the young miss, what will it be?"]. I'd always spell my order with a slightly deeper voice than my natural one, for funsies. She always acted surprised. Transpanic was not a thing, then, so it was more like roundabout homophobia, mostly performative (I'm cishet and was dating a girl in the same neighborhood, who patroned the same bakery).
As the great philosopher Snake Plissken once said, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
wasn't JK Rowling also saying that girls shouldn't transition because they are just tomboys (just like she was growing up) instead of trans men, and we should be more accepting of gendernonconforming girls so they won't feel the need to transition? And now she treats a GNC woman like this
Yep
That was in her beginning‘moderate’ terf-phase 😅
Imane is a male with DSD. A male DSD has a male musculoskeletal structure. Imane is clearly not a female DSD, jfc. Just because someone was raised as a girl, doesn't mean they should physically compete with women. (It isn't even a fact that Imane was raised so as past records show he addressed himself as a he/him and never wore hijab or women's clothing in the adulthood)
The Olympic fighter has XY chromosomes. It's hardly cut and dried.
It definitely reveals it as the deflection tactic it is. My Mother would say exactly the same thing and say how I should just be a "Masculine girl"....but have a big fight with me every time I cut my hair short or didn't want to shave or wore something "too frumpy". They don't ACTUALLY want masculine girls, it's just used as a way to question transitioning. "Transitioning to be a man is just ridiculous, you can just be a masculine girl we will continue to mock anyway!"
Even if I was just a masculine girl, I'd feel safer and more accepted around trans folks
I genuinely don’t understand why Angela Carini is being left off the hook for this? She’s known for pulling stunts when she’s going to lose, she did that at the last Olympics. She and Imane already knew each other before this and had even trained together.
Being unsportsmanlike and crying immediately after losing is understandable. But she made a whole press conference insisting she had been wronged in some way seeking “justice.” She insisted on broadcasting her accusations to the world for her own benefit.
She knew exactly what she was doing. I completely believe her that she didn’t expect it to get as out of control as it did… which is why it’s an important lesson in being careful in the way you dehumanize people. Angela was real slow to the apology and is only apologizing because she’s now facing hate of her own for what’s she’s done.
This entire witch hunt would NOT have been possible without Carini.
I agree with you, but I think the bigots, as they usually do, would have eventually come to their own conclusions regardless.
I agree, I think she laid out the path for bigots to take to transphobia. She knew what she was doing when she said that the masculine Arab woman was “the hardest hit she’s ever taken”.
the witch hunt and transphobia tweets started BEFORE the match and before angela said anything because the match hadn't even happened yet. that's why she's not the biggest issue here and yes the witch hunt was possible without her because it started before her.
She is involved in extremist politics. She is a well connected police office with a history of stunts like this...
I 100% guarantee she is being paid to behave like this so stories can be written and money can be made. There is no chance that this is a coincidence.
It makes me feel so empathetic for fellow women athletes who, regardless of them being cis or trans, don't "pass" in one way or another. As a woman of trans experience who looks nothing like a male, I can enter races as a woman without any sort of pushback coming my way, since I don't need to tell them about my gender identity. I am not even that good at running anyhow.
And one thing that gets overshadowed a lot in all of this is that a volleyballer from the Netherlands actually did terrible things to a 12 year old girl, yet he was allowed to compete in the Olympics properly for them. Yet the controversy is on a trans boxer that actually isn't trans at all...
Yeah this blows my mind . He raped a 12yo,convicted served time and he was at the Olympics
YES, this! I live in the NL and all ppl are going on about is this transphobia aimed at a cis woman 😠
And did Rowling and her flying monkeys say a single word about him? Of course not because they were too busy spreading malicious lies about someone they believed to be trans.
Oh but he's an Arian wonder looking guy, so Joan has no problem whatsoever with him. HE can harm little girls all he wants in her book.
he was boo'd everytime he stepped on the court, while Imane Khelif was celebrated. luckily, actual people don't really care all that much about terminally online trolls like JKR or newspaper headlines.
As a Hungarian I think many people aren't aware of just how hateful and vitriolic Luca Hámori's Instagram stories towards Khelif were. Obviously the picture of "poor woman vs monstrous beast" is horrible, but one of the things she reposted also calls Khelif a "korcs", which is a word you should never ever ever use for a human. The closest equivalent I can think of is "mongrel"; it brings to mind an aggressive, worthless half-breed of a dog. I am truly surprised she never got disqualified and I think that was only because most people did not realise the extent of how hateful her posts were, either due to language barrier or lack of coverage. In fact the Hungarian Boxing Association (MÖSZ) awarded her the amount of money she would've received for bronze as a consolation prize, which is just disgusting and further rewarded her bigotry.
Wow, I hadn’t heard about this stuff, thank you. I honestly hope Khelif hadn’t either before she fought Hamori because I can’t imagine what it would be like to beat someone up within proscribed rules who had said such awful things about me. Like how do you land a few punches and not let emotion take over and have to be pulled off by several refs
i was waiting for them to bring this up. the fact that she didn’t get disqualified was laughable especially after she stood next to imane khelif, having fucking lost
So disgusting and racialized. She’s certainly not built like that picture either. She’s built like a boxer, like Imane. Lots of behavior that highlights the importance of sportsmanship this year, unfortunately.
@weirdcreature9928 not surprising given this from Reuters about Carini - "The International Boxing Association (IBA) will award Italy's Angela Carini, who lost her welterweight round-of-16 bout against Algerian Imane Khelif at the Paris Olympics in 46 seconds on Thursday, $50,000 in prize money." This was also stated by the IBA themselves.
Omg this is horrible. Thank you for bringing attention to this
Parsing this language has led me to believe that for people like Rowling, the opposite of trans isn't cis, it's "real". And by real, I mean a woman who is deserving of societal approval, protection, who acts in a really specific and limited way.
As a cis woman, I've definitely never felt safe around those people and I used to think it was empathy but now I think it's self interest.
I think this is a really good point. I have a feeling if the other boxer looked similar to Imane or maybe presented differently it wouldn’t have been as big of a deal
It's telling when the "there's only two genders" people suddenly start believing in a 3rd gender upon learning she is not trans. And they never seem to push back against the people who still claim she is trans.
I will say this: there's lots I don't know about being a cis woman.
But like. As a trans woman, I can say this:
Being trans, doesn't even suck. In of itself. But. People like this? S 22:00 ure make it suck.
Lol.
And. I think you're right. This. Doesn't sound cool for you, either.
I feel like they underline it themselves in their “cis is a slur!” whine. To them, they are not “people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth,” they are “normal,” and “normal” only encompasses people who look “normal” and perform gender in the way they approve of. The culture of strict gender roles has always been chewing at its own tail, hurting cis people who fail to fit into the ideal mould, they’re just even more aggressive and vitriolic now that they feel threatened by the society around them trying to leave their damaging ideals behind, and they just also have new “gender ideology” buzzwords as weapons to lash out.
for jkr grade transphobes the line is now that trans people don't exist in any meaningful sense and anyone who can be seen as even slightly outside of traditional gender roles is just part of a broad coalition of delusional liars who want to hurt women
The thing about the whole "the smirk of a male who enjoyed punching a woman" comment too is that if a feminine cis woman had knocked out another visibly cis woman and had been SMILING during her victory shots, nobody would have said anything at all. As they said in the video, being upset about someone getting punched in the punching competition is wild.
Also… I don’t see Khelif smiling in that picture.
She has a pretty straight face.
Right? If* Imane Khelif had lost and the Italian athlete had "smirked", there would have been no issue.
@@phastinemoon honestly? she looks uncomfortable. like "the supposed professional youre competing against starts crying" uncomfortable. that for me is the face of someone trying to make the other person feel better even tho what the other person is doing is childish and embarassing
@_bibi_s Right? It shows empathy.
@@AkerfeldtTveitan-yi4xm TERFS: empathy? is that some sort of fancy hat?
Hi, italian here. I kinda make Angela Carini the villain of the story, actually. Of course the media circus that ensued after the situation is not on her, but she DID go and meet up with our (fascist) head of state and embraced her support in the situation, later saying that she treated her like a daughter. I understand that she regretted her actions during the match, but that, imo, doesn't excuse the way she dwelled in the attention and, as far as i know, she never defended Khelif. She gladly accepted the support of the worst, fascistic politician and media personalities we have here in Italy.
Yeah I think she only "backtracked" a bit when she got some degree of backlash. If I force myself to give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe I'd say that she felt a bit bad when she saw how big the mess she instigated had grown. Anyways fuck her and fuck M*loni lol. Carini is a coward through and through.
Sono d'accordo. Il modo in cui si è comportata dopo non si allinea con le sue "scuse". Inoltre Angela e Imane si conoscono da anni. Imane ha confermato che si sono allenate insieme più volte in Italia (in Assisi se ricordo bene). E Imane conosce bene pure il suo allenatore.
Quella scenata è stata imbarazzante e vergognosa. Carini non è innocente come vuole mostrare
Didn’t she make some sort of statement in an interview apologizing for what she said and defending the fact that Khelif is a woman?
You're Italian. If you think the athlete repping your country is to blame, you'd probably know more than me.
But. I am Trans and have seen JK Rowling's track record. Same with Elon and Trump and the rest of the "Brain Drain," crew.
So. That shit is just easier for my spidey-senses to pick up on. Lol.
You make solid points, though
Outside of all this, if I was a praying woman? I'd be praying for you guys in Italy, as much as I would for the Americans, 😅
Racism seems to be on the rise these days
"Gender Assigned by JK Rowling"
"Assigned Male at Hogwarts"
😂 💀
Asigned male at hogwarts is extra funny, because the protagonist chose Gryffindor, because that's the house he identify with
CRAZYYY
The sorting hat but it tells you your assigned gender
"the sorting hat has decided you will be using the male bathrooms"
There is a Gender Sorting Hat
What really gets me is that basically none of the people dogpiling Khelif have ever cared about women's boxing before this. Most of the people throwing a hissy fit about trans-women in women's sports have never cared about women's sports before in their life. They've never watched a women's game, they don't follow their local women's teams, they only care about it when they can bash people they don't like.
Is there anyone they care about? Like Elon Musk who sees humans just as a workforce and wants to create babies in a lab to "boost population", what to expect from someone as horrible as him.
I think transphobia is just sexism with a specific target. Honestly, all the phobias around gender, sex and sexuality are the same thing. All of them are about policing what they think it means to be a man or woman, let alone non-binary, fluid or anything else.
That's why they suddenly care because they think it has some challenge to the status quo and they can use something as a spring board for their rhetoric.
@@vixxcelacea2778 " a spring board for their rhetoric". that's funny, i imagine jkr jumping off like a bouncy ball to a pile a poop.
The people who say that a woman is an 'adult human female' are now having a difficult time determining what a 'female' is. Their inability to address the nuances of biological sex have made their stance on sex and gender completely incoherent.
Which makes me happy, to confuse them is great, I only wish that no one innocent had to pay for their confusion.
I mean, in that context a “female” is just “someone who identifies as female”. It’s not hard to understand, it’s just not scientifically predictable because there are a lot of factors that go into it that we don’t even know about, so you could find two people with identical personalities who came from identical cultures but identify as different genders. There are tons of individual quirks and random little experiences that impact how you describe your relationship to gender.
Actually this is just the proponents of gender ideology.
Something that according to Images own team they have and "issue with chromosomes" and is on testosterone suppressants to be within the female range.
The obviously cooperates the findings of the IBA and claims of Imane having XY chromosomes.
The actual reason is that none of you give the slightest fuck about keeping males out of women's sport.
Classic conservatives: the in-group always gets smaller and smaller as they're looking for more people to persecute. JK Rowling may very well wake up one morning and realise she's been thrown out because she's not fertile anymore / enjoys makeup / is not a tradewife / whatever other discrimination criteria the fascists have picked.
Really puts the racist white supremacist roots of their ideology on full display
I can’t believe that woman punched that other woman in the women punching each other contest 😢 what has happened to are soceity 😢
AND one was taller and punched harder than the other! Here I thought competition was meant to be exactly equal in all ways so that no one could beat the other and hurt their feelings…
@@ellim1585 Petition to have only identical twins fight each other in Olympic boxing so things can be truly equal
I'm a little bit into combat sports as a fan. After the hubbub started I went and watched and honestly was shocked. Not at the brutality.
It was 46 sec. 6-10 punches exchanged on each side with a pause for the Italian woman to get her headgear tightened. Imane definitely looked a lot better, more technical and tactical. But they didn't look ridiculously mismatched in the ring. The big swing that "destroyed dreams?" A solid but not particularly noteworthy cross. Hit solid, mostly because the Italian lady didn't have her hands up. It wouldn't have landed if she'd had even mediocre defense going on.
She didn't really stagger, didn't look dazed. No blood. No strong expressions of pain. When she threw in the towel it was kinda shocking. My kid kickboxes and I've seen him (any many other amateur athletes of both genders) take hits that hard without issue.
Flat out, if that cross was enough to make her quit, the Italian boxer had no business being in the ring.
it's a disc race 💽🏃
@@wavy6617 Monthy Python Collin Bomber Harris. 😄
"Purest form of evil" said by a man who posted a video of him laughing about a dead body he found in Japan's suicide forest.
The one that really puts this quote into perspective for me is that, in this same Olympic games, there was a volleyball player from the Netherlands who, aged 19, travelled to the UK to ply an eleven year old he'd been talking online with alcohol and then force himself on her. I haven't seen a single one of these people so concerned about protecting women even comment on this, let alone draw attention to it as something worthy of condemnation.
@@aecides3203 Hard to fearmonger about the scary queers when a cishet man is the one doing the raping
Not just a video laughing about the body, but actually a video INCLUDING the body.
@indieoregano And broadcast to his majority child audience
JK Rowling thinks the she's the Hogwarts sorting hat. She gets to decide your gender based on what she saw on Twitter.
oooooooohhhh noooooo, you're totally right. I did always think that hat was a bit sus.
The hat listened to Harry when he said he didn't identify with Slytherin
At this stage JK Rowling thinks the hat has been infected by the woke mind virus
She saw it on tHe TwItTeRz, though, so it must be true.😭
@@goa5138 Unfortunately, it also listened to the kids who did identify with Slytherin, placing them in an evil echo chamber instead of giving them exposure to better influences and potentially turning their life around. Authoritarian-status-quo-maintaining haberdashery.
Well she is ancient and looks like cheap leather so
it kind of feels like - are women ALLOWED to be competitive? Even if we’re honorable / sportsmanlike it’s gloating, if it’s a moment of frustration then it’s crying/damsel in distress, if it’s too triumphant, it’s mannish and impolite - so much archaic policing
if you’re relatively bad at the sport, you’re just laughed at - if you’re too good, you’re met with disgust / annoyance
the eternal double standard set for women
nothing a woman ever does is good enough. if she steps back, she’s trying to get people to do the work for her. if she puts in effort, she’s trying to get attention.
it’s just an eternal list of traits that, no matter which way a woman goes, she can and will be judged for it. which is obviously unfair, aggressively so.
Stepping back, there's still even a lack of respect, expectation of competency or skill, and acceptance of one's seriousness for women trying to enter into most sports, especially as young girls. You will be grilled, policed, and pushed back, and have to do so much more to prove you really can and really want to play.
You're right. On *both* sides of the argument, there's so much misogyny. We cannot win.
It's particularly frustrating that this is such a background feature of life that even in basic social spaces I see women who have done just a great job at something competitive automatically defaulting to pseudo-apologising for it. Like caring a lot or winning are somehow only for men.
Not me, a bi woman, learning today that "alphabet mafia" was supposed to be derogatory. XD I've been using that for years cause it sounds badass as hell.
I think there’s been a push online trying to reclaim it (which would work - it IS badass)
Everytime they say that, I cant help but imagine a queer "Godfather" trilogy of movies.
🤣
"Lucco Brazzi sleeps with the real fish."
@@moustik31"Look how they massacred my demiboy 😭"
@@ez_LiaI’m sick right now and just got into a coughing wheezing fit, that was really funny 😆
I hope Khelif wins her lawsuit against Rowling, Musk, Richard Dawkins and the Paul brothers
@@SarastistheSerpent I just hope she double dips and can sue trump as well
Richard Dawkins was involved in this??
@@heatherb9588Rich has been a bit of a s*** eater as of late.
@@heatherb9588 I'm not surprised. He kinda went off the rails in the last 5ish years. Kinda like Bill Maher.
SO GLAD she’s able to press charges. I was worried ab the internet thing and the different countries/potential jurisdictions getting in the way
The patent absusrdity of Logan Paul saying the Iman Khelif story is "the most evil thing unfolding before your eyes", in the middle of the Israel-Hamas war AND the Russian invasion of Ukraine AND the English race riots
Don't forget why Logan Paul is famous for in Japan.
My doctor the other day reminded me Sudan's really going thru it too.
And his ongoing refusal to take responsibility for his crypto scam.
@@Baphomet-tk5qs ??
Free Palestine.
It was SO fucking cathartic to hear you guys properly call out the shit show that is the IBA. I'm guessing I'm probably a minority in being a huge boxing fan, and former boxer, while also being a very outspoken trans ally who follows these issues very closely but this whole time, both sides of the argument were engaging with the same unproven claims. Even the allies were like "it's ok if she's intersex, we don't even know what effect testosterone has in these scenarios" etc and I'm like ok but we don't even KNOW that she's intersex or has elevated testosterone!!! Y'all even brought up how she beat Aminava 3 days before she was tested and disqualified. I literally exhaled a "thank you!" when Natalie said "anyone saying she has elevated testosterone or any xy chromosomes is engaging in pure conjecture" but of course y'all got it right
This entire fiasco made me think of that tweet that said something like “this is the butchest girl Twitter can handle” and it’s a picture of actress Vanessa Morgan,from Riverdale, sitting on a motorcycle and having dyed pink hair in two pony tails and a leather jacket.
So many ppl were sharing a pic of Iman Khelif in a tux like it was some smoking gun.
can you believe what they did to the green m&m
My farts are better than Matt's farts.
I read this as soon as Matt said it lol
@@p-__ cuuute
@@retro_aqua_no not cute, quit it!! >:(
@@retro_aqua_ Don't interact with the bots please.
Omfg as a former elite athlete in women's sport (Australian Rules Football)... None of us freaking care about transwomen in our sport, we care about our fucking sport. If people cared about women's sport, they would care about our access to our sports, our pay, the media throwing sexist crap at us. All these issues are way more prominent in women's sport, transwomen are very rarely, if ever, actually an issue.
So the actual issues in women's sports. What women in sports care about is access and proper pay. I had to quit because I had to sleep well, eat well, exercise, recover, everyday. Every single day, it was more than a full time job, it was all encompassing and this is very difficult to express to people who haven't lived it. This is not to mention the constant training too. I was not getting paid for any of this at the second highest level (unlike the men) so I would need a part-time job to keep it all together, this was especially hard being from a lower-class background. The pay at the highest level is only enough to pay like a part-time job too... For a job that's a full-time job at best. So women in the sport would have a part-time job and sometimes children, on top of having to maintain themselves in an industry that teaches you that one misstep (like eating one bad meal or missing training because you can't afford transport) puts you behind all other athletes. I could have kept going but frankly, I just did not want to given the toll it takes on your mental health when you lack money for it.
I haven't even touched on the differences in how the media interviews female athletes vs male... Usually women are just asked such out of pocket sexist comments that often don't even relate to their sport.
Who’d you play for? I watch the womens when I can (same as wnrl and wbbl). Hope you’re doing well after having to quit.
I played nrl as a kid and had to stop as there wasn’t a girls league at the time and mixed stopped at 11) I’m so glad that’s not the case anymore. I would have played nrl instead of netball and hockey tbh.
Also I’m so sorry about the pay bs. It’s pissed me off for years. I’ve talked about the injustice for so long.
I’m just really glad womens games are being televised more and more often. I used to have yo go out of my way so hard to watch most womens sport other than netball and basketball.
@@watson483 Thanks. Trained with Carlton and Saints. Both really lovely supportive teams.
yeah its basically virtue signalling smokescreen. they don't ACTUALLY care about the real issues, they jsut want an excuse to bully someone they're bigoted towards and make it seem like they're doing it for good reasons and not because they're bullies who want to hurt someone to feel powerful.
Cause if they actually cared they'd be fighting for women sportsmen to be treated better, paid better and given better facilities etc etc etc rather than focus on shouting about women not matching their narrow worldview.
"Elite athlete" lmfao
Australian rules football = kangaroos on the field
58:40 "This would not end even if there were no more trans people left. If trans people did not exist, they would have to invent them." THIS!! This is why Natalie is such a fantastically profound guest, I could not love her insights more.
This sentiment is neither profound, insightful, or original. Please gain higher standards.
@@HeyLetsDoAThingit is not original, because its something RELATIVELY obviois, given the facts, but it IS insightful, youre just being a hater
@@mariamatedei It’s the same reason Irish people were considered non-white. In groups will create out groups to discriminate against. This is obvious to most people
it's actually that this thing won't happen, the transvestigation panic is them subconsciously realizing that they can't make trans people go away.
Yes, throughout the whole discourse I’ve been reminded of Natalie’s excellent video essay on eugenics and reminding us that these people always go back to the skulls!
Imagine you’ve trained your entire life to be a boxer. You know full well the very likely physical danger you’re openly putting yourself in should you enter a match unprepared. You do this and you’re good enough to be considered one the best of your sport. You then try out to make an Olympic team to represent not only that sport, but the nation that supported you and you make the cut (an insane feat in itself). You are now fighting against the best the world has to offer and you do what the VAST majority of the world can NEVER say they have accomplished and win a Gold Medal. And the only thing so many people are talking about with your name on it……is your Chromosomes. I think that would shake me to my core being. Congratulations to Imane Khelif for her Gold Medal performance and I hope to see her perform again in the Olympics someday.
My farts are better than Matt's farts.
Solid snake pfp, Instantly liked
You're DERANGED.
He has a DSD but went through male puberty..
Imagine being an actual woman and being beaten by a man with twice the strike impact?
@@Ub3rGr00SS “Kept you waiting, huh”?
In Ireland we are mostly talking about how Kelly Harrington beat her once when it comes up,because we don't often have gold medal winners and when we do we are obsessed and bring them up every chance we get.
As an AFAB nonbinary person, I honestly think that the biggest reason I now identify is nonbinary is that I was bullied for being ‘a trans woman’ nearly my entire life. I still present exactly the same way I did before, I would say I ‘pass for a cis woman’, but I still get assumed to be a trans woman on at least a monthly basis. Women with long faces or broad shoulders will tell you the ‘trans treatment’ of cis women has been a thing for a cool minute if you don’t look right 🙄
I agree!
I am in the same boat. And have dealt with it for 50+ years. But...the last 7 or 8 years have been exponetially worse.
Wanted to flag that imane was only told she failed the gender test at the worlds AFTER she beat the previously undefeated Russian boxer… by being disqualified (retroactively) the Russian boxer suddenly had an unblemished record again… Lin Yu-ting was also disqualified for failing some unexplained gender thing AFTER competing
They mention this in the podcast in the podcast
Ja, Russia, that famously trustworthy source. I'm totally gonna believe them.
@@pastlesandfish I follow multiple other sports & the Russians are so well known for shenanigans. I hope she sues that organization for setting her up for this abuse, too.
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 I really believe russian media is promoting this story as a cope for them not being allowed in the olympics this year. they frame their relationship with america/the west as "traditional vs woke" and EVERY video with an american female athlete is full of russian comments saying she must be a man - katie ledecky, simone biles, sha'carri richardson, even ones that are not really famous get it. it's disgusting
@@pastlesandfish russia, who we're suddenly trusting in this situation despite the literal invasion and war they're attempting and all the fascist shit they've been doing. SURELY THEY COULD BE DOING NO WRONG HERE.
TW: mention of abuse/SA
When I ID’d as female (I’m trans now,) I was in a 4 year long abusive relationship with another woman. It all led up to her SAing me.
Everyone from cops (no surprise there,) mental health workers, doctors, and paramedics questioned my experience. Their first questions were always about my abuser’s physical appearance (how tall/big was she, was she stronger, was she an athlete, etc.).
It’s as if they can’t process that my abuser could harm me unless she had masculine traits.
I’m so sorry. ❤ 🫂
Yes, it is brutal that despite the complexity of these things people just can't break free from certain narratives.
Reminds me of the show 'Titus' where the titular character is constantly beat-up by his 5'2 Jewish girlfriend and his Dad tells everyone he (his son) gets into a lot of bar fights.
Every time JK Rowling says something about gender now we should just say "Yeah well said, Robert"
I've already started doing exactly that
i still think jk subconsciously wants to transition idk if her pride would let her especially as such a celebrity
My favorite part of the Imane saga is the fact that the Italian boxer she beat is a COP!!! So of course she cried, she's not used to fighting someone who is legally allowed to hit back
oooh makes sense
The list of reasons to dislike Carini just keeps growing 🙏🏼
A cop and a boxer? I don’t even want to think about how many stories her victims might have had. In Italy, friendly with fascists… god.
In Italy there were a lot of jokes about this. One of them goes along the lines of "she's crying because cops are used to hitting poc in group, not 1v1"💀💀💀💀
😂😂😂
They would definitely invent transfobia if it didn’t exist- my middle school teacher in Poland who is a cis woman got dragged out of a lavatory in Florida in the 90s because someone thought she was a man due to her short hair, height and weight. And when she told us about it in class as ‘the US is actually scary’ and people were excusing the violence because she wasn’t super feminine.
Yeah, if it really is about "keeping women safe", then why would there be a reason to marginalize real harm done to real women in the name of that safety.
When I was a teenage girl I was told to leave and stay away from the women’s bathroom by a male security guard who thought I was a teenage boy (he was nice about it but it was still upsetting). I was not trying to look like a boy or look masculine, but I just did naturally and I remember crying to my mum after because of how upsetting it was. I remember talking to transphobes about it and how their transphobia just makes it harder and at times more dangerous for cis women and girls who either choose not to conform or who can’t conform to more feminine beauty standards. They said it’s not their problem I’m ugly. lol they just hate women and girls. I feel much safer around trans women than around the judgmental transphobic women who’d cheer on men targeting women so long as the targets weren’t sufficiently “attractive” or “feminine” enough for their standards. Seeing how traditionally feminine some of the cis women they transvestite are I don’t really think any woman is safe. If you’re too feminine they just label you as a caricature as well. It’s ridiculous.
@@genericname8727 If you're masculine, you're "Obviously a man- just look at him!", if you're feminine, you're a "Characture of a real woman". The only way to win is to be born white and conventionally attractive.
I mean, considering that almost all of the trans-hate rhetoric has its roots in sexism and humiliation of gender non-conformity, and all of them are almost exactly the same talking points of the homophobia throughout 70s-2000s, yes, they would absolutely invent sth to be hateful about even if trans people didn't exist, as they did many times in the past
tbh as a north african trans person i truly wonder how people thought algeria was gonna send in a trans woman to represent them😭
these people are narcissists who reflexively avoid deeper understanding, they are highly ignorant of everything and everybody outside their immediate circles
As Arab I was shocked as well😂
One would expect the haters to know better, but then if they had known better they would've never been like this 🙃
I put "she/her" in my tiktok bio, and had transphobes trying to transvestigate me in my comments. (I'm a cis woman with a large chest) My pronouns got them so upset, lol. They are so ridiculous. I'm glad that Imane is suing JK & Elon.
I have mine in my Instagram, and the number of people who complain is surprising to me. It says I'm a woman, it's not that deep.
As a cis woman I'd never been misgendered until I started having my pronouns on my work badge. Suddenly, I had people intentionally (I'm assuming since nothing else changed) calling me he/him or referring to me as a man. It really threw me off the first time it happened, but it was mostly upsetting to me because I knew how they would treat some of my trans coworkers.
Also just adding the pov as someone with a martial arts background: any martial art, the training is usually mixed gender. Women and girls are used to getting hit by men and boys in training from the very beginning! The higher level competitions are gender segregated, but everyone starts out even competing with the opposite gender; it's based on age group, weight, and belt level before reaching black. Boys and girls start out training equally together, and they keep training together even after they stop competing against one another. The other thing with mastial arts is that you learn that your body can get hurt and hurt a lot and you still don't cry, from a young age you are taught to keep going because "you're opponent won't stop". Also, respect is HUGE. You know you and your friends will hurt each other in training everyday, and you learn not to take it personally. You laugh it off, you check in with each other, help each other when needed. You can't have an ego being bruises like your body. And this sort of comraderie extends to competitions. People are really nice and welcoming because we all know we're here to punch each other. Imane offering comfort was exactly the type of reaction I am used to seeing in the ring. The refusal to even shake her opponent's hand on Angelina's part is INCREDIBLY rude, unsportsmanlike, and 100% against everything you are taught from day one. Respect for your opponent is fundamental, recquired, and heavily enforced especially with young children just starting training who might get their ego's bruised. They don't bow in boxing, but in other arts we bow to each other right before a match, and right after. When she refused to shake hands my mouth dropped, I was shocked. Personally I think she backpedaled hard because everyone in the community called her out. It's just not part of the culture. It's practically a taboo tbh.
Now I did a street self-defense art, kajukenbo (it's an acronym, and the -bo at the end stands for boxing). So we specifically trained to deal with opponents larger and stronger than us. The smallest girls would line up to spend time working with the big guys over 6' and 200lbs. Because that's the real world. And the guys were wonderful helping the girls out, because they wanted them to train so they would be safe in the real world.
Now I'm not saying there isn't ever abuse in dojo's. I am lucky and I had a really wonderful community in mine. But I would say overall, the culture in martial arts is positive and supportive. And if you are known as someone with an ego, most coaches will stamp that out of you real fast. Shame on her and her coaches. I have taught children's classes and definitely talked kids through tears and hurt feelings over the years, because we do not allow that behavior going forward
I cry easily. I cry when I'm happy. I cry when I'm angry. I cry when I'm exhausted. I cry at old AT&T ads. I cry when I'm relieved something's over, good or bad, that I was holding in tension about. I cry when I succeed. I cry when I fail. All my important life moment photos feature my face twisted up & wet while clown-grinning bc I'm failing to control my body's default response to stress release while simultaneously trying to reassure + apologize + explain to another person I'm not crying bc of them or anything that has to do with them, it's just my dumb body.
So I don't leap to conclusions about people crying at the Olympics. It's stressful & probably very surreal, very public + personal at the same time. I remember Euna Kim trying to explain her crying after the last time she skated in competition --- observers thought she was crying bc of the unfair scores since Russia reportedly conspired with judges to win & Euna Kim is considered to have given the best performance that day (last I checked there were still court cases & investigations in relevant organizations about that event). But Euna Kim has repeatedly said she was crying bc she was relieved that was the last time she'd ever have to skate/skate professionally. Her whole career was coming back to her in the moment, she knew it was over, & it was an overwhelming mix of emotions, many positive. She knew she skated her best & she knew she was done her career & would never again have to face the stress + discipline of training & competing at an elite level.
So the Italian boxer crying shouldn't have been a big deal bc it could mean anything --- someone's having an intense private moment while in the public eye. Normally I give that a lot of grace. The actual big deal was the petulant gesture of refusing to shake an opponent's hand, giving up on the bout & not even TRYING to finish the competition, then on top of it all, giving press interviews playing up + into the racist/sexist/phobic rumours by introducing the idea of "unfairness" somehow. I have a hard time believing she's innocent in all this. Her + the Hungarian should be banned + fined. Any sports fan can tell stories of cheering on "good losers" as well as winners, & even if she couldn't win the bout, she could've respected herself, her sport, her country, her opponent, the fans, etc by staying in the fight & doing her best. I'm still side-eying the Italian boxer for laying out the table even if she didn't realize it'd attract a swarm of leopards to her dinner party. She laid that feast out lavishly, what did she expect? I think people let her off too easily with a BS weak-azz "apology" delivered way too late, designed to minimize the blame she deserves while she gets her face chomped by the leopards she set a buffet out for.
@@picahudsoniaunflocked5426this is a long ass para for you to essentially agree. She was so rude and childish and although she couldn’t have predicted what came next she ate it up for her own benefit and has done nothing adequate to rectify the situation. I cry all the time too. But she could’ve cried and shook her hand and said something graceful instead of slandering her opponent. Unacceptable behaviour.
@@KatieLeydenIt’s ok to mostly agree with someone and also bring something else to the discussion. Not everything has to be an argument with starkly opposing sides.
@@JamEngulferThanks for your permission, now kindly get fucked
this is barely relevant but your comment made me remember my mother yelling at me when I took taekwondo in 2nd grade for spreading my legs around the boys whenever we did stretches. 🤦i was so embarrassed in front of my peers and did not understand at ALL what she was so upset by lol, i was just trying to follow what my instructor told me to do ;-;
"I don't 'self-identify,' it's everyone else that I identify!"
-J.K. Rowling, probably.
"Well, I've been listening to my gut since I was 14 years old, and frankly speaking, I've come to the conclusion that my guts have shit for brains."
Hahahaha!
This is pure excellence.
The fact that this began with a photo of Imane Khelif comforting her opponent after the match, an action which arguably embodies the "olympic spirit" really well, makes it even more ridiculous than it already was.
Damned if you damned if you don’t
if you look up how many women athletes have 'failed' the gender determination test in the 2000s, its mostly women of colour, and primarily indian women. its so common here, they made a (not great) movie about it
This reminds me of the vilification French tennis player, Amelie Mauresmo, received, after coming out as gay.
Lindsay Davenport said it was like playing against a guy, and Martina Hingis called Amelie, half man!
Times have not changed, sadly, a proportion of society will always be looking out for a scapegoat and when it's the rich and powerful, it's even more deadly!
Right, gross
yuck!! i never knew about that
Still disgusting, but a little bit comforting to know all this has happened before. They came for gay people and now they're coming for trans people, but hopefully it'll pass eventually.
Martina Hingis was always such an awful person in particular. What an era.
As a kid I always cheered for Mauresmo because I always thought she was so cool. She just had the right vibes for me.
Of course I'm a lesbian now lmao
I find it interesting that some of the women running in track events often perform while presenting "feminine" (makeup and nails, etc.) still do not escape transphobia due to mysoginoir and their stellar perfomance.
It's weird to me that this conversation is also happening at the same time that a lot of online commenters are disparaging gymnasts as well, like Simone Biles for not having enough "grace" and focusing too much on scoring points through complex maneuvers. There's now a resergent online force trying more and more to force women into subservient aesthetic roles even in sports and it hurts to see it growing.
I am a very tall cis women (not athletic tho), and it really makes me uncomfortable how people question the gender of a women just because she does not fit their standarts of femininity. I had multiple instances where people misgendered me, especially when I do not wear make-up and wear baggy clothes. being misgendered can be very hurtful.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
@@GlazeonthewickeRwhat are you trying to say lol
Having grown up in the rural midwest in the 90s, if you behaved in any way outside of traditional masculine norms you would be called a girl or a woman. Ask any theater kid of the era. Something as innocuous as reading a book at lunch could've been justification to get harassed for being effeminate. Nowadays these same folks could see a drag queen done up to the nines, or a gay man with makeup and their nails done and will scream in their face that "THEY ARE A MAN". Idk what my point is, but its something ive been thinking about lately.
It’s because misgendering is an expression of power and degradation against gnc people
and the crazy thing is that these same people also shamed girls for being too feminine. if we're talking rural rural, the ideal woman especially back then was essentially an idealized man (self-sufficient, able to perform medium-hard (farm, yard) labor within reason, mostly stoic, etc) but prettier to look at and with fewer rights.
its weaponized gender. "whatever gender we can call you that hurts you the most is what you are"
Cruel people just want to hate, even if they contradict themselves!
The biggest, most masculine trans guy will still be a woman to them, but a cis woman with a slightly prominent nose and jawline will be called a man in a heartbeat. Similarly it doesn't matter how perfectly feminine a trans woman is, she'll always be a man to them, but a cis man who lets his daughter paint his nails will be called a woman. Misgendering is a blunt tool, but it's wielded carefully.
"gender neutral language comes more natural to trump than transphobia"
"completely agree"
"good for her!"
"good for her"
(i love y'all)
JKR's definition of feminism is "people like me, JUST like me. Maybe ONLY me."
English second wave feminism in a nutshell
That's Contrapoints' definition of feminism.
They are transvestigating Andrew Tate now too because he posted a pic of himself in speedos and it looked like he was tucking or something apparently 💀
That would be the post twist of the CENTURYA
Sooner or later they always eat their own.
But it`s funny that they outed Andrew Tate having a small penis in the process. Which explains his ramapant misogyny.
Sooner or later they always eat their own.
But it`s funny that they outed Andrew Tate having a small wiener in the process. Which explains his ramapant misogyny.
Sooner or later they always eat their own.
But it`s funny that they exposed Andrew Tate to have a small wiener in the process. Which explains a lot about him.
Sooner or later they always eat their own.
But it`s funny that they exposed Andrew Tate to be not endowed in the process. Which explains a lot about him.
I've never understood the "keep men out of women's sports" argument. I'm a petite woman who always played sports with men. I grew up playing soccer with my brothers and I was never in physical danger lol. Later, in my 20s, I had much better endurance than a lot of males I played sports against. I like being challenged. It's not like any man is automatically better than ANY woman. There's a lot of overlap. (I'm not talking professionals here, but there are so few trans athletes at the elite level that I think that's really not worth fear-mongering about).
It’s a lot easier to understand when you realize that people have to be sexists first before they can become transphobes. Sexists believe in a hierarchical society where men and women have clearly defined social roles (and men are superior by virtue of their gender). They view anything outside those traditionalist roles (single working women, no fault divorce, gay men, athletic women, etc) as a threat to that supposed superiority.
Sexists, being deeply insecure people, crave that sense of superiority. All those threats are all the same thing to them. To them, there is no real difference between Imane Khelif being transgender, and being a masculine woman.
I have heard some people saying that was actually the point, that women's sports were separated from men's to preserve the narrative that men are always better, because women were starting to win against men. I haven't actually looked into it yet, though, so do take that with a grain of salt.
basically, it can either come down to sexism or racism or classism, or two or all three at once
Just want to note that there were trans athletes competing, just not as their actual gender (eg Filipino transmasc boxer Hergie Bacyadan
thank you for the info! I didn't know about him. he seems really cool
🎉🎉 you’re right!
also quinn on team canada for soccer and nikki hiltz on team usa in track and field
Hergie has seemingly made some weird comments about how people born with XY chromosomes should never compete in the women's division in the olympics(I assume any high level sport competitions). And some other thing about how athletes who compete in the women's division should never be allowed to compete if they "fail" a testosterone test(I think "fail" means if they have very high levels of T).
I still think it's good that trans people are represented in sports. But he gives me slight Buck Angel vibes from the little I've read about him. Correct me if I got anything wrong btw ;-;
@@Itchy__where did you see this? That would be a terrible shame if true. All I heard about him was that he defended Khelif and the other Taiwanese boxer accused of being trans
Unfortunately there are also a large number of people who acknowledge that Khelif is a woman and agree that this entire story is based on lies, BUT they’ll also imply that if she really was trans/intersex/etc. then the abuse would’ve been warranted. They really can’t see that they’re part of the problem.
I've seen so many people online go "no she's a REAL woman, shes a biological woman, she has a cervix she's female." So many so called allies showing their ass
"Once successful author, now X user" is now how i will descibe JKR for all eternity😂
"You listening at home could be trans."
me listening at home: so true queen
hello north african here, many of our women are built like that, and the out of proportion reaction and quickness to accusing Iman of being a man feels somewhat racist to our ethno group, the insult isn't the misgendering as much at is the prejudice behind it enforcing it
It is. I'm not at all used to seeing women like that that I wouldn't be surprised if the person had been trans (not in a judgmental way, just in a for the information I have, it would make sense) which just goes to show how ignorant I am on the subject of what different body types women can come in because my view is very limited to what I see on the daily, especially with concerns in my culture about women growing "too many muscles" (as if they're easy to just grow, which anyone would tell them, that's NOT how it works) because they're told to not look "mannish".
I'm glad that you said it's common, because it's something I just flat out was unaware of until reading your comment and shows obvious holes in my knowledge. No doubt there are many like me regarding this too.
@@vixxcelacea2778 Just remember that Africa has the most genetic diversity in humanity.
@@vixxcelacea2778 well at least you seek to understand unlike many others such as JKR and Musk
Many famous models are secret trans
@@amandapeterson3659 Did you test them?
I saw a comment on Reddit implying the sorting hat was practicing phrenology and I can’t unsee it now. The signs have always been there.
The book was entirely made of red flags, we were just too young to understand.
"A world where there are categorically evil people, as part of their inherent nature."
"The special cast of wonder people ARE inherently better than the dull masses. Being openly cruel to them is fascism, but subtly constructing society to keep them in their place is a goos thing."
"Slaves are better off in slavery, they just turn to drink otherwise."
"No social reform is needed when an entire society aligns with an evil fascist and becomes a police state. Just remove the one bad guy and everything is fine again."
"The banks are run by a secretive group of naturally greedy monster people who always ally with evil."
I'm sure there is more.
@@DisgruntledPeasantthe statue in the ministry of magic always gave me a bad feeling. A human magic user above all other magical creatures, deliberately portrayed as superior to everyone else.
@corvoattano44
That's the point tho. Harry notes that the statue of the witch and wizard surrounded by simpering elves, goblins, and centaurs made him feel uncomfortable.
But it's a symbol of status quo. The ministry was never progressive. It was always racist and classist and pro segregation. Voldemort is defeated and nothing changes because status quo good as long as you keep quiet about your bias and prejudice.
I think what happened with Imane really made people aware of just how all encompassing jk misogyny is. It’s not just trans women, it’s anyone who doesn’t precisely fit the mould of what she thinks womanhood should be. It makes anyone who isn’t exactly what she thinks a woman is a target.
Calm down Transy Parkinson
@@Hankblue grandma it’s past your bedtime
@@winterbliss4459 Calm down genderbliss
@@Hankbluewow ouch what a burn, I’m devastated
every part of this discussion is making me so speechless.. what is even going on? There are also more female olympic athletes who got accused of being male. Ilona Maher being one of them. And every comment section of any muscular female fitness influencer is also full of this crap. It’s like they keep fabricating new ways to be horrible to women
i realized immediately that Natalie was talking about seeing Ilona's video on twitter-- i sometimes see her posts on instagram, so i know for a fact that she has been dealing with misogyny and misdirected transphobia regarding her appearance for a long time, which made it all the more heartbreaking to see her crying in that video. i think she mentioned that she just feels very strongly about women being able to present themselves however they want, not that she was upset to the point of tears by the abuse, but just the fact that she still has to deal with all of it is so fucked up
Not to mention the actual controversy should be why did the Netherlands accept a pedophile (someone that actually did things to a 12 year old girl) to represent them in an event (beach volleyball in this case).
@@crazyluigi6664you see a black woman beating a white woman in the olympics is wrong and impossible and erasing women, but we will gladly look the other way when an actual convicted child groomer is allowed in the olympics. because we care so much about protecting the kids and all that
I know we want to be understanding and compassionate for Angela Carini, but im an Italian living in Italy, and shes sponsoring our current governament (Giorgia Meloni) that is far right with an openly fascist past/tendencies.
Not only did the fascist politicians congratulate her for "standing up for her rights", but she was happy about having their support.
So i wouldnt be so fast at giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I know this is a tangent, but I also believe the VAST majority of men and women are at the physical and sport level where they can and do happily play sport in coed leagues. I, a fully grown adult, am currently on a coed soccer team, and a coed flag football team. I have also done coed boxing. Plenty of times the best player on these teams have been women, because we're not Olympians, we're just normal people, and plenty of normal women are better soccer players than normal men. I'm all for women's sports, but the concept that men and women can never enjoy playing together and against each other is wild to me. And the whole conversation about 'trans men in women's spaces' is creeping in that direction, like, JK Rowling, do you know MOST women who play sports play coed??
I would agree that this applies to everything but elite levels. I've had a number of women best me in several sports I play and I'm not ashamed of it. They train harder and they're better at it. 😂
in this conversation i had a man self-proclaimed "feminist" tell me that it was unfair to match men and women in sports because men have such an immense upperhand that most men would win against any woman. This fucking psychos went so "feminist/protect women" that they went all the way back to women are inferior and that shit makes me so angry because i have seen it underneath the gender discourse but i didnt think they would come and just say it outloud, my lil brother said stuff like that when he was 5, not 20 something and he got cleared up reall quick by myself
I relate to this. I played soccer in grade school and I overall preferred the years where I was part of coed teams rather than the girls only teams. I feel like the idea that physical differences between men and women being so great as to cause a noticeable difference in their physical performance while playing sports, is extremely over inflated and bordering on truism.
Joanne literally invented the worst coed sport in fiction, so she definitely knows.
I've done swimming my whole life, and although men and women basically always compete separately, they often train together. I've been on several co-ed teams and one all-women team. Definitely preferred training with both genders! Just makes things more interesting lol.
JK Rowling is like everyone's least favorite Aunt. You can block her all you want but somehow someway at least once a month she gets a little loaded on supermarket wine and goes on an online tirade that you'll hear about one way or another
Suddenly your mom brings it up during dinner: "Did you heard what aunt Joanne did the other day?"
"Uugh... Okay, what did she do this time...?"
And you actually loved her as a child 🥲
@@HomodemonI feel like this is a legit conversation that happens between her family members.
@@pastlesandfish I do kinda have an "auntie Joanne" in my family...
I'm never happy when my mother brings her up...
This is how Rupert Grint actually described her, if my memory serves me right...
I am so thankful for channels such as this and contra, as a CIS male truth be told I don't really think much about gender and I think it is super healthy to participate, hear and listen to those people who are being affected in the world via yuk time policies set up to marginalize them. The amount of education, entertainment and philosophical thought process you provide is just excellent and I am so very thankful I live in an age where access to voices and intellect such as yourselves is something available to not just me but to everyone who needs to hear it, whether they chose to or not.
TLDR: Thank you.
I hope Imane Khelif takes JK for all she has, as well as the others who did what they did. Its time the wealthy and famous, including regular people, to be held fully accountable and responsible for what they do and say online, in person, in the media, spreading misinformation, lies and hatred is not covered by any free speech bs, say it, write it, and suffer the legal consequences for that. Good luck Imane Khelif, I hope you win gold for handing all these haters their collective asses when you win your legal action.
Elon as well would be hilarious.
It's literally slander and can absolutely hold up in court. You can't say unfounded things that can damage a persons reputation.
Free speech doesn't mean free from law and there are LOTS of laws regarding speech that spreads lies, hatred, incites violence and panic. You can't shout "fire" for shits and giggles for a reason.
People who think free speech means they get to say whatever with out consequence are really just saying they want to be able to trample all over everyone else's freedoms, freedoms to not have violence, hatred, panic or lies thrown at them.
my natalie senses were tingling
Literally lmaoo
My farts are better than Matt's farts.
It's so nice that she is doing other appearances like this. We need more Natalie videos haha
I felt something based coming from the internet, and I knew Contrapoints was involved
I watched her twilight essay about 20 times, her interview with Adam ruins everything, and I crave for more👁👄👁
It’s now that I realise Rowling’s voice in my head has always just been Natalie’s impression of her.
19:35 "They don't care about women, they just dislike X more" is the tag line for SO MANY terrible groups. The 'damsel' is made the mascot.
The irony of Jo being sarcastic about being abusive to women while she is actively abusing a woman WILD
Gaslight, gate-keep, girlboss baybeee
MATT WTF THE LOGAN PAUL JUMPSCARE VOICE NEEDED A TRIGGER WARNING 😭😭💀💀💀
I loved it so much, him doing the bro-voice!
logan paul, scarier than a horror movie monster
Obsessed with this video, I was actually lightly transvestigated in middle school when I “looked like a boy with his hair grown out” and I hadn’t gotten my period.
I'm sorry that happened to you in school. School is the cruelest place! The girls used to say I was pregnant, from time to time, because I have a lot of belly fat. We all get our abuse I guess. People talk about you but never to you. 😢
My cousin (a cis woman) has always had short hair, and as a girl she has been regularly bullied out of women's / girls' bathrooms and changing rooms on the sole basis of her short hair. She was one yelled at by an adult at a swimming pool, and in school she was bullied by the other girls into exposing her body.
Even these days, she gets misgendered very often, *despite* her very feminine appearance (except for her short hair). She was called "sir" when she was 8 months pregnant. Her and her husband frequently experience homophobia because people think they're a gay couple. The shit she tells me is *INSANE*.
im just here to say im soooo jealous of natalie's interior decorating
OMG! Yes! Always!
If I were a billionaire, I would just hire her to decorate all of my rooms in the Sims 4 for me, lol!
Wasn't she one of the geniuses who popularized bisexual lighting? That shit was revolutionary!
SAME! Those chairs, with the skull. Oh and the colour palette. I'm obsessed.
😂 me too! It’s too distracting… because is so perfect!!! I’m like “yes, these gender norms!! 😡 but that wallpaper uhhhh! Yes!”
5:20 thank you for always making sure we have the full context before diving into the discussion, it makes the discussion much more meaningful for me. I appreciate all your hard work, and thank you for bringing us so many fascinating long-form sessions like this 💕
The transition from J.K to Logan is pure nightmare fuel
As a teen I saw J.K Rowling as an incredibly smart, eloquent, powerful and open-minded feminist, she represented everything I wanted to become. I truly grew up admiring her. I was incredibly confused when she first started leaning towards transphobic rethoric and the more she was radicalizing, the more a dissonance developped in my mind. I couldn't even begin to comprehend how someone that I perceived to be empowering for women, could endorse such harmful speech with so much passion and hate. I genuinely struggle to even put into words what it does to my brain but I became obsessed with trying to comprehend the process of it all. Your discussion and unpacking of the whole story just helped me alot with processing the absurdity of the situation. I'm not as articulate as you both but I wanted to say that hearing you talk in great lengths about how none of it makes sense, how we can't even have any type of reasonable conversation with these people, validated my sentiment and confusion. I'm always going to feel frustration and some type of anger when reading her tweets but now I know that I need to move on from this serious case of bigotry and focus on people who are ready to listen and learn from others. That was a great episode, thank you !
When I was younger I also used to look up to her. But the truth of the matter is - we don't know her. We probably only saw her public persona. She was likely always like this. Not a serious trustworthy person
I think what might help is that, like, there are some people who will profess certain beliefs and know exactly why they hold those beliefs and exactly how deep they are and where other priorities might conceivably over-ride them. And then there's people who will profess certain beliefs without any real understanding of the beliefs or of themselves, simply because their idea of "good person" includes professing those beliefs. And those are the ones you have to watch out for.
I understand this :/
I was very similar to this, as a kid. So when the mold woman began her loud & proud terf tirade, as a queer person who used to look up to her, it felt personal
She created a series we could see ourselves at home in. But the truth is that her series was always very sexist and prejudiced, we just didn't notice it at first because we fell in love with the characters or the setting. But it's easy to find the flaws on re read. Perhaps we always should have known what the author was like.
Hearing about all the "failed gender test" stuff that supposedly came up always makes me think of when my hormones were tested as a teenager. I was trans (ftm) when I came out to my parents they didn't want it to be true so they kind of grasped at straws to find a "reason" I would be feeling this way. Including taking me to a family doctor that tested my levels and lectured me at length about how I would grow out of this phase because she was also a tomboy when she was younger and didn't think she wanted kids (not what I was talking about) and then she got older and settled etc etc. The test showed my T levels were slightly elevated but even that doctor admitted it's not that unusual for some cis women / AFAB individuals to have slightly elevated T levels for a variety of reasons.
Also fun to note that it's a lose-lose situation. If you are AFAB and identify as a man or non binary, having high T might be used to dismiss you as "Ah, it's just because your hormones are imbalanced that you think you feel this way" but if you are AFAB and identify as a woman with high T suddenly its "you must secretly be a man". Can't f-king win with these people.
The worst part about this is that many mainstream media reported on this uncritically and seemingly before doing any research.
I remember the moment I heard about this. I saw a headline that included "Algerian transgender boxer" and just a random trans guy, I immediately knew it was bs. There _are no_ Algerian trans folk. Not out, transitioned and representing their country on a freaking international stage at least. The fact that bloody _journalists_ didn't stop to think about this for even 30 seconds is truly disturbing.
I don't like blaming social media for all the world's woes, but this on, yeah. In a world where news cycles can be measured in minutes and hours, even stopping for a minute for fundamental research can impact views and engagement to the tune of thousands. Compared to even just 10-20 years ago when news was happening at the end of day or the next morning due to early morning publishing or evening news.
But seriously.... LGBT supremacy in a conservative Muslim country? Get real.
@CorwinFound And then millions of people accept it as fact. It's so, so scummy and irresponsible of the news outlets and it is just so depressing to watch, even more so when you're British and most of your news is already some of the sleaziest, grossest, most oversensationalised slop on the planet 🥲
“It is journalism’s sacred duty to endanger the lives of as many trans people as possible”
Transphobia was always really stupid, but seeing shit like transvestigating of Andrew Tate or stating that Dylan Mulaney was secretly born female and transitioned back, like.... they have lost the plot
There was never any plot to lose tbh
They're one step away from getting gangstalked.
Transpobia is naturally
I’m so tired of JK Rowling making her trauma everyone else’s problem 🙄
I think what makes this especially tragic is that while I agree with you that the people starting these debates don't really care about fairness in sports, the people who eventually pick it up - everyday laypeople, people looking to have a conversation at the dinner table - do. It's just that they start off with the wrong information because they've only learned of the situation from the aforementioned malicious actors, and they are much too overconfident to recognise their lapse of knowledge in biology, genetics, and the social issues at play.
I've talked to a lot of well-intentioned people about this "debate" who I think really do care about fairness in sports. And it was almost exclusively me correcting them or educating them, followed by them returning to "well ok I didn't know that, but it's still not fair". Actually, Khelif isn't trans. Actually, there is no evidence that she has higher testosterone levels than regulations allow. Actually, the supposed "gender test" was administered by a corrupt organisation and its details were never released, so we don't know her chromosomes either. Actually, intersex women don't necessarily have stronger musculature/build than non-intersex women. Actually, "fairness" is more complex than you think, especially in the context of top-level sports, where by the nature of it being top-level, only the most physically advantaged people ever even get to qualify.
What constitutes an unfair advantage is an incredibly complex topic that everyone thinks they're qualified to weigh in on, but very few people are. And even fewer people recognise the collateral damage of putting trans and intersex women's place in a women's space up to public debate. Even if you're just trying to be fair, you have to be very specific in your language lest you insinuate that trans or intersex women aren't women. I've seen a lot of commentary about this issue regarding transphobia, but I'm shocked at how few people recognise how damaging this debate is to intersex women and the rampant interphobia being thrown around. There's been all kinds of specuation about what condition Imane might have, her chromosomes and sex characteristics, and whether that makes her a "male" or not. I'm not intersex myself, but having several intersex friends (including cis women) I can't imagine the horror of reading these takes and realising that they're also just a step away of having their womanhood invalidated. It's disgusting. I believe that with the absolute lack of credible evidence it's futile to debate whether Imane is intersex or not (she doesn't identify as such, but many people only find out their intersex status later in life). But I do want to say that even if she is, she is still 100% a woman, and that I've very much been missing that angle in leftist takes on this whole charade. We must acknowledge that this is not just - or I would argue, not even primarily - an issue of transphobia. It's also an issue of interphobia being picked up by already transphobic people, who are now reusing and mapping their transphobic rhetoric onto intersex people as well. And of course racism.
Thank you for weighing in, bless our intersex sibs
YES!! The interphobia is huge in this debate but never really talked about!
snaps
If I think about the conservatives I've known, if I think about my extended family... And how they'd debate this or how they've reacted to trans people... Nah, I have to strongly disagree that for them it is just about fairness. They might not have the passionate anger or disgust behind their questions or comments that some of these talking heads do. But it is still motivated by a deep discomfort and lack of curiosity around trans people. These people had to read the same posts and articles we do and have overlooked the vitriol that we haven't.
I mean, every transphobic person is also interphobic. I suppose the distinction is important in some contexts, but you can't really separate the two (with maybe the rare exception being the weird take where intersex people are uniquely able to chose their identity while perisex trans people can't, but that still ends up in making up criteria for which intersex people are actually intersex and I suppose we're back at the start again, but this is a whole other tangent bye). Like, hating trans people, hating intersex people, hating women and hating POC is all relevant here and all of the above flow smoothly into one another, it's hard to point out when bigots are doing a particular thing because they're doing all of them at once.
That said, I do realize intersex people are often skipped over in mainstream discussions so I'm not trying to further push them under the rug, it's just that I always see interphobia walking in lockstep with transphobia, they're fundamentally interlinked in my experience
Nikki Hiltz is trans but not on HRT. they've talked about how not being allowed to go on HRT has impacts them and other trans athletes
I'm just getting into the first 5 minutes and went looking for whether there was commentary about Hiltz. She had a very good showing in what was an incredibly, historically deep field in the 1500 and did some interviews at the Trials & at the games themselves along the way.
I hope you have Natalie on at LEAST once a season....like every 3 months.
I love you both, but your chemistry together is just magic. And Natalie's monthly Patreon videos aren't enough!
My first viewing is always for the fun informative aspect.
But then I'll watch these again, several times, for the pure ASMR of it all. :)
I feel like noting a little something extra about how the "gender critical" definition of woman has slid from "adult female human" to "producer of the large gametes" to "what I see" -
Their definitions have always assumed a position of being more precise and scientific than the trans position of "I know my own gender". What they are now (openly) stating is "No, I know your gender," which throws all previous posturing out the window.
This may seem like a distinction without a difference, but I truly think this marks a huge turning point. Either they've jumped the shark in the eyes of polite society or they've reached the tipping point where they can be open about their intent to harm all women who don't meet their arbitrary feminine standards, rather than treating that harm as unfortunate collateral in their fight to "keep women safe".
This is the most open moment of people shifting the goal post to be straight up hateful I've seen in recent times.. Aside from trump propaganda maybe. Usually they try to sorta hide it, this is not even close they are just saying they don't care anymore whatever they say is now the truth 😭
I have a job thats physically demanding and I vividly remember the day I was finally strong enough to lift a transmission by myself. I looked over at a more experienced co-worker and smiled brightly because I was proud and I thought he might be happy with my progress. He shook his head and said "I hope you know how unattractive that is" ....dude... I was having a moment
Yeah it start so early too :') being 5 and hearing that the teacher needs "big strong boys" to help move something 🥲. If we discourage girls from physical activity esp strength building ofc lots of weak women exist 😂. they want women to be weak and dainty so they feel bigger and stronger
Belated congratulations on your achievement!
🎉🎉🎉
Wow, what an absolute assclown. Sorry you have to deal with dipshits like that and congrats on getting stronger
@@Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh This! Teachers said this to us at the exact same time my parents were building a house themselves and I (a 11 to 14 year old girl) had to help at the building site. I literally had to carry bags of cement and do all kinds of heavy work at home only to be told at school: "We need a strong boy to carry this". Ridiculous!
I didn`t even know what feminism was at that time, but I knew what was happening didn`t make sense. It was really clear that they asked the boys in order to affirm their egos and to put these gender roles in place.
I never publically protested against the "we need a strong boy to carry this" because it was totally clear that none of the boys would have liked me any more, they would have seen it as an insult against their manliness. You learn very early as a girl to not outshine boys in certain things, because otherwise the boys will hate you and the girls will not like you because "you behave like a boy". There is really a teaching and learning of these gender roles going on in the teenage years.
Funny how heterosexual life, supposedly the most natural and rational expression of the erotic, discourages the female physical strength that helped our species survive. I've heard more than my fair share of comments like this.
Transvestigation goes to show that so many people have no earthly clue how the human body works, and have no clue what “transitioning” really involves.
Yeah it's kinda crazy how often transphobes out themselves on how little they understand about how the human body, trans or cis, works
Transvestition is confirmed by anthropologist
this case really needs to be used and spread as much as possible because it really shows how irrational these people can get. No Joanne... she is not a man just because she is not an english feminine lady, which appears to be your definition of women
Make up: On point💯
Guest: Legendary!⭐
Video: Ate🍽
Nails: Homophobic 🤢
We stan a diverse icon!🎆
“Assigned male at Hogwarts” killed me 😅😂❤
i really cant believe so many people seem to think men really are super human beings, the way they talk about the inherent strength differences between men and women just show what kind of fantasy worlds they live in
and that women are always in need of saving, petite small damsels in destress. as if these competitors aren't signing up for the literal olympics of boxing. its so misogynistic and weird
The dudes in my family really latched on to some supposedly true "news story" they all remember of a women's pro soccer team who was apparently beaten in a friendly competition by a boys high school team. It's help up in our family as "the ultimate proof that even a professional woman isn't as good as a teen amateur boy, athletically, bc biological essentialism". The story details change enough that I understand there must be an element of urban legend to it, but it's been raised to this unimpeachable Truth in the family lore.
I hate it sooooooooo muuuuuuuch.
@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 This sounds similar to a story Shaun tore apart a while back! He discussed it in a video called "Paul Joseph Watson is wrong about: Sports" or something like that.
That pisses me off so much because it obfuscates actual biological things going on. It's not incorrect (as far as I know. Anyone versed in biology, if what I learned in school is actually wrong, please let me know) to say that people influenced by testosterone, which usually are men due to testosterone encouraging typically masculine type traits, tend to be able to build more muscle, especially in the upper body which could be conducive in certain sports, but isn't a be all end all. They use a pin prick portion of real evidence based science and then run away with it into crazy propaganda land.
It's like watching religious persons argue scientifically about a god or gods that have no defined parameters with which to measure if they even exist and saying "it's just science." No. Stop. Stop making a completely different argument to try to seem like your point somehow has more "value" because people actually trust in the scientific method.
It's so freaking insidious because it ruins the credibility of facts and evidence that don't have some kind of agenda. The entire point of science and evidence is just to find out what is going on, not what that specifically means. Eugenicists did the same crap trying to prove that there was some inherent value based on race.
You can't have very mild benign differences with out people attributing greater meaning or "proof" of something. It's so frustrating.
Many cultures thought men were the advanced improved version of humans. See the Greeks. The shitty thing is someone could take the information that they were also fine being gay and spin it to be anti-gay or some other dumb agenda instead of just "Humans have had a wide variety of made up reasons to think x or y (pun not intended, though kind of funny considering the conversation.) and correlation is not causation. Sometimes a simple fact about something doesn't mean there is some grand design or connection to anything else.
Humans struggle with that though. It's why we fall into conspiracy theories. We have a very hard time not thinking everything is connected or on purpose or has any meaning.
The scream I scrumpt when Matt did the dude bro voice. OH MY GOD
@AnditlookslikeImthequeen intentional choice of word over screamed lol 😂
+
Since you are apparently a non official past tense enjoyer: I also enjoy "blunk" as the past tense of "blink".
"you, watching at home, could be trans!"
how did she know :0
""Even if transphobia escalated to the point here they literally rounded up and shot every tarns person... that still wouldn't be the end of transphobia. If trans people didn't exist, they would have to invent them, and they're doing it." vey wise comment from Nathalie, and it reminds me of the old witch hunts. There well have been some actual shamans targeted, but there weren't many of those, so they completely made up accusations about people- usually women- who they saw as non-conforming or they anted to get rid of for any reason.
if gender critical stopped existing tomorrow, the lives of trans and cis people would improve massively
if trans people stopped existing tomorrow, the gender critical people would move on to screeching about “the gay issue”
Even if Rowling did fact check the IBA, she doesn’t have a problem with the Russian state anyway. Putin has spoken sympathetically of her… A terrific endorsement to have for sure
literally imagine putin defending you and not immediately speaking up
@@overgrownkudzu Probably would be something like 'While we may differ in some of our beliefs, you have my utmost respect and I thank you wholeheartedly for your support.'
A little late to comment, but towards the end when you and Natalie were talking about the transvestigating groups and the Dylan Mulvaney F-M-F "theory," I would like to point out that does actually happen to intersex people-- some of us are forcibly assigned a gender in infancy, get non-essential surgeries, and then we "transition back" in later life. I am fortunate to not be one of those people, but I will be coining the term "double flipper" as a joke about myself because I went through two puberties on my own HAHA (more like 1.5, but that's a long story). But I think it's very interesting these people are so up in arms about "forced gender transition in childhood," when this is literally still happening in the US to intersex kids, non-consensually and for non-medical reasons. I don't see them up in arms about this, ever. There's a reason our su*cide rate is 7x more than the average population. This shows you what they really care about.
We've been saying for so long how these anti trans talking points were going to hurt not only trans women but cis women in the long run, it's so sad to see this happen worldwide under the guise of protecting women. Just sad.
Protect women! But only if they fit my criteria!
Exactly, Transphobia affects ALL Women!
They don't care, anymore than the "save the children" crowd actually cares about children.
They're just panicking and don't feel safe, so they need targets. Most reactionary BS is scared insecure people who buy into some "ism" because they don't have anything else solid in their lives. There are some fantastic rabbit hole videos on UA-cam about how people fall into alt-right ideology and how it grows. It's about community. Having something to see as a target to explain their inner fear and uncertainty about the world.
"It's not a complex economic system that's outgrown itself into a cancer. It's not a species that has some how haphazardly evolved so far beyond itself and it questions and demands to know why it exists and if it itself is worthy of it. It's not that people actually want what is best and are all trying in different ways to achieve that. It's not various factors at play that all lead up to an unsatisfying frustrating conclusion. No, no our problems are the gays! - the trans! - the blacks! - the women! - the scapegoat!" THEY'RE the problem. So fight with us, and we'll create utopia!" - That's the playbook, that's the mentality, that's fear speaking that morphed into hatred.
It's an easy answer to the issues everyone feels. People need a target when they're scared, otherwise, reality is too much to handle.
There are also lots of videos talking about how it's not uncommon for alt-right down to conservative mindset, at least in politics is often about quite literally denying reality in favor of what they want to be true.
It's a psychological mind field with real world consequences. More people genuinely need hugs and love from their parents. Security and confidence instilled into them so that they don't turn to anything they can to find acceptance and community. Insecurity breeds people to find easy fixes.
In THE image Imane is doing everything “right,” consolation as to be sportsman like, but with a neutral and empathetic face as to not come off condescending or insulting to the opponent. But because it’s a little white woman that lost people see what they want to see. She did everything she could have done and still was targeted.
Edit: I’m not meaning to implicate Angela Carini as being any more than an image in this. I agree she was a sore loser and had a hand in creating this situation because of that, but that is all.
It was a pleasure to listen to two smart, thoughtful people. Appreciate Matt’s notes and research. The way Natalie can just relay these powerful observations that sum up the ridiculousness of these people. Well done both, such a well needed video to cut through this toxicity
Imagine there was a male dominanting boxer with the perfect genetic mutation for boxing. Grows really tall and strong, barely feels any pain (genetic mutations like these exist). There wouldn't even be a discussion about how "unfair" this is to other athletes. We just have to live with the reality, that sports is literally not a level playing field. It's also amazing to witness the people who usually dgaf about equality on an economic and political level being so worked up about how naturally high testosterone levels in women is "just not fair" to the other fair maidens.
Also, if the IOC continues to use testosterone levels as the marker for gender, consequentially there will have to be biological males with low testosterone competing against biological women. Because that's the logical consequence of such a rule.
That what I was thinking about, in a reverse situation the male would be celebrated worldwide, invited to interviews, meeting with celebrities, have his own shoeline but in womens sports every woman has to be at the same skillset? If your opponent is losing should you hold back so you don't hurt their ego? It doesn't make sense
That's because people like that think they're "throwing a bone" for women to compete at all. It's infantilizing and dehumanizing. This is why I think the sex division of it actually furthers more of this mentality and women's sports are both underfunded for exposure and they are under paid routinely in almost every sport.
Even if men or people with very high testosterone will dominate, simply due to more muscular capability, then oh, well, they do anyway. But if some women are on the team because their weight class or some other physical division aspect gets them in, they'll have to be paid more attention to, because they are in that class.
it's well known that women's sports aren't generally taken seriously and there is always contention in their outfits, which just doesn't happen in men's sports anywhere near as much.
everytime this stuff comes up I think about goddamn Shaq. He can hold a basketball almost like frekaing a tennis ball. Most of the big professional basketball players don't have hands like his. Ofc it's a physical advantage. Does anyone ever suggest we disqualify him for his "biological advantages"? No. Because guess what, humans are not all the same. Using your individual strengths is part of being a good athlete.
I'm tired of this whole "poor girls are gonna be beaten up by men 😢". Women that do combat sports and martial arts hurt each other ALL THE TIME.