The Moscow Mood (with Joe Rigney and Samuel Parkison)
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Joe Rigney and Samuel Parkison join me to discuss The Moscow Mood and Kevin DeYoung's critique of Doug Wilson's unique brand of cultural engagement.
Kevin DeYoung's original article: clearlyreforme...
Joe Rigney's Response: americanreform...
Samuel Parkison's Response to Joe: samuelparkison...
Subscribe to the podcast: podcasts.apple...
The difficulty with Sam is he ultimately admits his struggle comes from his personal assigning of Motive -
Both His & KDY article tries to communicate in a way that says “you know I’m a little concerned”. But truly its aim is assigning motive - if not - then why do they struggle when DW clarifies himself - if they were not assigning motive than when DW clarifies himself, then they should accept the clarification & move on - but what’s happening is when ppl agree with Sam & KDY & DW does bring clarity they simply go to the closet & try to assign blame to Moscow on something else - it’s quite disingenuous.
Great discussion Josh! I just wish the original two - Kevin and Doug - could have such a conversation, or any of the others who have leveled charges against Moscow. Why do they never accept the invitation to have such dialogue?
1 Cor 11:9 and Ecc 7:21
It appears there is far too much time being spent putting the faithful people in Idaho under a microscope of analysis. Ligonier Ministries got our family up to speed on theology over many years. Now Canon Press and all the related teachers in Moscow are invaluable to us in application of all that high theology we earnestly studied. We remain so grateful for these folks. And are slightly irritated with the bickering about them.
High theology like calling others the p word and pushing the herasy of Christian nationalism which is the complete opposite of what Jesus commanded?
I concur.
A problem I’ve noticed in the modern world and even amongst some in the church is when something is said, the people on the other side would rather raise attention to how it was said rather than what was said.
Samuel is distracted by assuming he can discern Doug's motives. He cannot according to scripture. He also states he believes his criticisms are on track for two reasons - the positive feedback he's received and though he wants to support the teachers in Moscow, he cannot because they apparently trigger his own admitted besetting sins. Joe Rigney tenaciously keeps bringing the discussion right back to scripture, setting all 'feelings' and sentiments aside. THATS what we like about the Moscow Christians.
I've said it before-Doug is an artist. And like most artists, unfortunately he may not be fully understood or appreciated until he is gone. When the accountants in the church start ridiculing the artists over their art it is obvious that they know neither art or the Bible. Mr Rigney proves again that he is part of a movement trying to build bridges while others try to tear it down.
Josh-thanks for having them on. That was helpful to hear both sides of the issue.
Samuel Parkinson's pietism is a bit difficult to endure throughout the video. Apparently, a lot of people agreed with his article because they apparently suffer from the same precise pietism. Moscow (it seems to me) is very unsympathetic when it comes to this kind of pietism. Is Moscow too sympathetic when it comes to some sins? Maybe, but I'm glad that they don't seem to give any encouragement to this kind of pietism. One more point for Moscow 🤷😂🤦.
Moscow breaks every commandment Jesus left for us. See the beatitudes etc. Jesus would have loved the lesbian in a wheel chair. He would have walked besides her and ministered to her because she is made in the image of God. She's a punchline to Elmer Doug Wilson Gantry
@@leighalaughlin4056 And how wound he minister to her? Jesus would have told her her actions and desires are an abomination in the eyes of his father and to repent, believe in him and turn away.
I will fast forward and see what you can still possibly be discussing for over an hour and a half.
Oh my, Sam…SPIT IT OUT ALREADY! …😂 give me more directness instead of constantly beating around the bush…😅
How would Samuel explain the sharp and harsh language, tone, and snark Jesus used against the Pharisees? Are we to have or give some sort of extra grace, some sort of new level of the 11th commandment above what Jesus displayed in scripture, or some superhuman level of passivism not found in scripture? Idk it comes off as piety begging without a real issue.
All this just boils down to "do what you're doing Moscow, just do it the way we approve of" signed with love, Big Eva
Great conversation helped me see both sides more clearly, I look forward to the three hour version with DW and KDY.
I think to criticize Doug for 'warning people not to jump down Kevin's throat' as a sign that he knows there's an issue, and then at the end to suggest that Moscow show that they're being more mindful that people can take things the wrong way stood out to me as a set of criticisms that as a pair were a little inconsistent...?
It’s telling Sam had to change the goal posts so many times, effectively making an ever-expanding argument, but never really meaningfully responded to any of Joe’s rebuttals beyond “I just disagree because I feel xyz”.
Grateful that this kind of exchange took place.
I do wish some time was spent on how much we can seek to model a prophet like Ezekiel versus Jesus (and no I'm not being Marcion here) or even Paul. Paul actually said that we should follow his speech and manner of life (Phil. 4:9). It seems it would have been fruitful to spend more time excavateing Paul.
Firstly, he speaks like it's meant to be a gentle ribbing, but as if the ribbing is supposed to feel like a pillow, without any bite. But the bite comes from the truth.
The larger issue I see is a parallel to what I have experienced in cases of discipline, where the person in sin tries to claim that "Well, we're not that close." But the verses that describe discipline require both people to be believers, and that is all the 'closeness' that you need. We should not silence truth on the basis that we aren't that close with the person in genuine need of correction, if they claim to be a fellow believer.
Great conversation around the truth. A lot of good comments have been made, and to fill a gap, I just wanted to appreciate Rigney's background of beauty. It doesn't take much. It seems that 90% of other people either has the:
1: Bookshelf
2: The raw wood work or raw mechanic studio, i.e. 'we don't care' look (pragmatism... please...no more)
3: The minimalism of a Scandinavain yoga teacher
Some color, some art, some ornemantation. I believe it tells a lot about a person that they understand the unity beauty has with goodness and truth.
The Lord's presence is everywhere all the time. Make it clearer for people.
It looks like he did this interview at home. His office would be more booky and less arty simply because of the nature of offices. 🙂
A helpful discussion. I’m just curious as to why Samuel has not found the need or the courage to write a similar critique of TGC. DeYoung and his defenders would have much more support and perhaps even my support if they were calling out the such ministries publicly. But they seem to only find the time and energy to call out Moscow. The major criticism here seems to be a nuanced judgment about Wilson’s motivation, claiming his stated motives and reasons are not what is really going on in his heart. Meanwhile, TGC can publish an article on Taylor swift that points out how wonderful idolatry is because we can learn from those who worship idols how devoted we should be to Jesus. From DeYoung and others…crickets!
Does anyone know of the relationship between Rigney and Piper since Rigney left for Moscow?
Appreciate Samuel’s respectful way of communicating, but I don’t think he contributed anything of substance. Everything is a vague concern based off a feeling, and/or attributing motive.
We are at war. The fact that ANYONE would criticize our most courageous warriors in the heat of combat strikes me as absurd. Go Moscow!
These men are brilliant...
In other words….if you are a true Christian, you need to be less of a snowflake because our righteousness is based on Christ alone, not our own whatsoever. Embrace the non-essential differences and appreciate them instead of being overly sensitive about them. 🙌🏻 No snowflake Christianity!
Sam: "There is a particular way of talking that is *always* unacceptable for Christians."
But for every kind of "bad talking" that is forbidden in scripture (vulgarity, obscenity, cursing, swearing, etc), you can find examples in scripture of them being used righteously. The overall teaching of scripture therefore is that those forms of speech are not *always* unacceptable, they are *usually* unacceptable. i.e. There is a place for the use of that kind of speech that honors God.
41:59 how would Sam harmonize Ephesians 5:4 with Galatians 5:12 or Matthew 3:7.
Would he say that the apostle Paul was being hypocritical or was he following the example of Jesus and the prophets? Was he doing so in such a way that we couldn’t follow him as he followed Christ?
I’m more of a Deyoungian in how I speak, but it does appear this issue isn’t simply resolved by quoting Ephesians 5:4. I believe I saw a video circulating recently of Paul Tripp talking about the right and wrong uses of crude or strong language where he himself demonstrates he’s not opposed to using it in its right context even with his own kids.
We need a “Biblical Theology of Language and Strong Language”
Found the video of Paul Tripp. Viewer discretion is advised because of the language he uses.
ua-cam.com/video/Uya9IXpwy4I/v-deo.htmlsi=9c0PLg_hVsVb3hoh
Sam: "Dougs writing is bad bc when he uses naughty language, it makes me giggle at sin"
Thats a sam problem, not a doug problem.
Mature christians recognize the sin, not the language.
Methinks Kevin DeYoung and his ilk need to grow up and develop some thickness of skin.
Sorry, unable to watch . Once
He came on screen I nearly wet myself 🤣. Isn’t this woke, wet and weakness the Issue. Mood me
Up Scotty.
I totally agree with the arguments that the Moscow folks make, however, I don't see what they're arguing for done in practice. A lot of this isn't playful ribbing or disagreement. I often make fun of Other Josh, but I 100% believe that Josh knows it's all in good fun and if I ever thought it wasn't taken that way, I would stop. What I see from Moscow is them saying incendiary things that they walk back when called out.
If you want to harden hearts and drive people away from Jesus while gathering a following of trolls and wannabes be Doug Wilson
😄 riiiiiiiight
Idk what Jesus you're talking about, but isn't the biblical Jesus. There aren't degrees or stages to hardening of hearts and being driven away from Jesus. You're either regenerate or you're dead in your sins and trespass; you're either alive in Christ or you're dead in Adam. It's not a sliding scale. Doug Wilsons ministry simply sharpens and clarifies the visible line between those with true saving faith in the Jesus of the Bible or a vain nominal experiential faith in a Jesus made in man's image.
@CorlosMazda Not really when did Jesus tell us to call Christians who are walking by sinners and ministering to them weak. See the beatitudes compare them to Doug. It's save the lost not own the libs
@@leighalaughlin4056 where did Wilson call those ministering to the lost "weak" for ministering to the lost? He may call the ministers weak that preach a false Gospel lacking a message of repentance and dying to self and turning from sin, and rather preaching a message such as Jesus loves you just they way you are, or some other post modern easy believist trope. Wilson's content outside of the church function presupposes a Calvinistic, reformed, theonomic thought. A non believer or false convert hearing his message and doesn't like it can't be pushed further from God. As I said you're in Christ or you aren't.
It's not "save the lost not own the libs" as you say, it's share the Gospel which is at Emory with liberal ideology by principal and God will save his elect.
Completely unfounded accusation. I have children and friends up there and hard hearted is the last thing I could think of to describe the atmosphere