1911s, Is It True?
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- Опубліковано 30 бер 2024
- Looking to start the discussion on some "Do's and Don'ts" that we often hear regarding 1911s.
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Please share both what you've heard and what you've experienced.
For BH spring solution I know a lot about high powers 1911 CZ's and know how to rebuild them all And trust me They're more resilient than anybody realize You just have to know what to do
I work For BH spring solution
I have carried a 1911, since 1972, I have a 1911 from WW2, made by the Singer company, I still have it, drop the slide and the hammer on it still, never an issue or a failure, it’s got all the original guts
Being I worked in a machine shop for decades and know how important tolerances are I am going with Bill Wilsons opinion, he is known for decades to improve 1911s, BIll Wilson said it's not a good habit to get into letting slides slam especially on light trigger sear engagements were you can damage sear and the lock up, he mentioned that slide was designed with resistance in mind coming forward, it may be heavier triggers the sear can take a beating but when you think about it why slam slide over and over again knowing that the gun will wear faster and have tolerances lost over time. It's just like a nice finish on a collector gun, people putting them on bricks and surfaces for a artsy photo, Shure the gun will handle it but over time why mess up a good finish when you can set gun down on a cheap gun mat and never have any dents or dings preserving a piece of history that will stay nice even if we shoot it, so we don't have to be safe queens but care for the gun, clean it, lube it and no need to put unnecessary stress on a gun especially if your counting on it to function saving your life, and my slides I let go, I rarely do it other then reviews I caught myself a couple times but use snap caps, I need my gun to work every time, not going to slam slides and not have gun function for me when I need it
I've absolutely seen dropping the slide on an empty chamber on a 1911 cause hammer-follow. I have had to correct this problem on some guns. I don't drop the slide on an empty chamber on modern 1911s and advise other not to as well, but I haven't seen doing so on a modern good-quality 1911 cause an issue. It may be a 'Legacy' issue and apply primarily to older or poor-quality guns, but honestly there's no good reason to do it either.
Absolutely. Also remember, especially for those budget 1911 owners. You don't know where the steel came from (virgin or recycled) and some parts are MiM and others may be tool-steel.
Some MiM good, some MiM bad, usually you don't know until it breaks.
The violent action when a discharge occurs is in my opinion what the gun is designed for, so why would dropping the slide manually be detrimental?
Allegedly the internals can't handle the slaming forward without the loading of a round bracing the impact. I've also heard that the extractor smashes into theh barrel (this was solved decades ago with a relief cut into the barrel.
Don't gunsmith much or build non-Glock guns much, do you?
There's a whole lot more going on inside any semi-automatic firearm than what occurs at the ignition points. If it helps you any, go study up on hammer follow, mainsprings, and struts.
Not just 1911s either. Want a firearm to provide good service? Respect it like any any tool in the box.
Not saying to not do that to a 1911, saying that there are perfectly valid reasons not to.
Essential question is, why do you Need to slam the slide home and why do you Need to dryfire without snapcaps?
@@JD-tn5lz
Does dropping the slide and dry fireing my modern 1911 hurt it, no
Will I continue to do it, no
Will I ever have a problem, no
Do I care if you want to argue this, no
Have I ever seen proof of these things hurting a modern handgun, no
Will I ever see proof, probably not
So again, will I continue to do it, Abso-friggin-lutely
I've heard both sides of this from both young and old shooters.
No, it has little or nothing to do with metallurgical advances or improved machining.
Frankly, it often comes down to personal experiences. If a 1911 that didn't used to but now hammer follows, you can generally trace it to how that 1911 has been treated by users
My advice?
If it's yours, do with it what you will as long as you're safe about it. If it's someone else's or a store's, show some respect and don't slam the slide closed on an empty chamber or improperly dryfire. If they say "go ahead" then, fine.
One matter regarding metallurgy and yes, you can hear this from mechanics also. Older steel manufacture is often SUPERIOR to modern because it is isn't possibly recycled or not-to-spec carbon Chinese crap-steel.
Folks been making steel for a long time, folks, people have it figured out. It's ceramics and other materials engineering where the real advances have occurred.
I don't do that to any of my firearms, to include Glocks, HK, Walther, CZ, 1911s, etc.
I don't like cats much, but Wilson Combat is correct. Just because you haven't damaged, noticeably altered, or broken anything yet doesn't mean you won't.
Done it hundreds of times, seen others do it hundreds of more times. The only time I've seen a handgun fail due to parts breakage in person was a 1916 luger that snapped a reproduction firing pin. The odds of a decent modern 1911 or any other modern handgun to have a parts breakage due to dropping a slide is so astronomically low that you'd be more likely to break it by shooting it than the relatively few times you'll be dropping the slide empty.
it's all about competency , who's competent to give valuable opinion , as an engineer I've learned to listen to technicians and who's the better technician than Bill Wilson in the industry ?
Treat it like a race car, it'll last like a race car. Only a fool would spend big money on a custom gun and then treat it like a beater.
If I can't trust my newly made $2k+ handgun to survive some dry fireing or slide drops on empty, how am I to trust it with my life or at a competition.
Race cars get rebuilt a lot, actually. The engines in top fuel drag cars get rebuilt after every run. I don't know a lot about F1, but there's so much money In those races, I'd be surprised if they didn't tear them down after every race.
@thatguyoverthere9634 Who in the hell sling shots their gun during dry fire? All you have to do is reset the gun which DOES NOT require slingshoting the slide. All you are doing is proving how stupid you actually are.
I'm with you Graham with your explanation at 0:45. But at the same time I can believe sear and hammer surfaces could be damaged on a super light trigger. I mean, 1911s are known for hammer follow after super light trigger jobs, especially if the gonsmiff took off too much material and the hammer and sear surfaces are on a razor's edge. This is the type of trigger pull is what Wilson and other boutique 1911 makers have on their guns. Could I believe a violent jolt that the gun doesn't occur in normal firing, result in hammer follow/hammer & sear damage, even with today's high quality metallurgy? I do believe it's possible, it's definitely plausible. I personally don't believe it'd just be 1911s prone to this happening, but other similar guns with super light single action pulls (Sig P226 X5, CZ Czechmate).
See, I wish a 1911 maker preaching it's so bad to do, just test it and show what happens. Get a 1911 with a 2.5 lb trigger, drop the slide on empty 150 times and check for damage. Not likely going to happen because it'll make their product look like 💩, but it would definitely settle this. Also, I don't think it's just Wilson saying dropping on empty is bad, but most other boutique 1911 makers would say the same.
Some engagement you've ordered?
Just from a metallurgy standpoint:
> In most cases when something breaks it is a design issue and the ones trying to fix it by throwing a different material at it are not good at their job.
> There aren't gigantic changes in metallurgy and everything usually used for firearms is not the elusive kind. It wouldn't fix that possible issue. Changing radii, how loads are applied, different paths of motion are a better idea.
Dropping the slide on nothing is a valid point on certain pistols that have fine edges for certain trigger setups. They''ll still work but take damage by forces applied in a way they were not designed for. Like loading through the ejection port and having the extractor slamming into and jumping over the round's edge. Especially the 'extended duty cycle' kind that are less ductile to get contracts can fracture and break at the worst moment. It's like a basketball thrown at extended fingertips. Another example would be those that kick on the flat side of a crescent wrench to bend them as a show of(f) strength while it wasn't designed to have forces applied like that.
Back to the slide dropping on empty...
All sorts of dampeners slowing down the slide are missing. The round isn't removed from the magazine against it's friction and no mass is added to the slide motion to slow it down, nothing the extractor grabs onto, nothing contacting the ramp, nothing to insert in the barrel...it just slams forward and the hammer is cocked, with the tiny sear ledge (depending on the level of of work that was done or is expected of it) and it may take damage. It's like watching pressure curves of 9mm vs. 40 S&W. It's how quickly a peak is formed that creates stress. A rounder curve is easier to digest, the forces have time to flow.
The 'I've been doing that for so long, It can't be.' is flawed, lacking data, biased argument by personal experience. 'We did it in the military when we cleared it.', is worse cause the military can do no wrong. **Looks at gov. profile barrel decision+ no custom sear&hammer**
Without anyone doing that repeatedly AND cutting and etching/contrast die certain parts to see the damage you'll have to rely on those that make them.
So many have finally digested that a rimfire rifle or pistol can take damage, break the firing pin and damage the breach from dry firing if the maker didn't consider it or even added a dry fire mode like on some bullseye models.
The idea 'it has to take it, it is tough'...is like taking an expensive mechanical watch to a job a G-shock would be better suited for and still doing something that it was not made for.
Damn, I wrote way too much.
If a single data point interests you, I broke a p226 extractor loading through the ejection port back when I could still rent easily at my local range.
Not too much writing, rather precisely the type of intelligent commentary I'm looking for.
It seems like the answer is to never buy Wilson combat. As an animal lover with a soft spot for kittens
😆
@S1deshowRob Yeah this "don't" comes from Wilson Combat and just maybe their pistols are not made up to true specifications.😆
Meow😂
My first pistol was a USGI 1911A1 .45ACP back around the mid '80s and I put lots of rounds through it and I even had a second one later on and dropped the slide for years and years and never had any problem. To me its a myth. Same as you, I have yet to see a 1911 break from dropping the slide on an empty chamber. War production pistols maybe had parts problems but if the pistol was made true to specifications no.
I really don’t know if it matters or not on any pistol but I don’t really see any applications where it’s an administrative task that needs to be performed except in competition- sort of. In matches , I’m asked to unload and show clear - I’ll remove the mag , pull the slide back , catch the round as it extracts while the slide drops , pull the slide open again to display the empty chamber , ride the slide closed with my hand and pull the trigger . Guys are doing this constantly at matches and it doesn’t damage their guns.
I believe dropping a slide on a chambered round with an internal extractor will break it. I've seen it happen. There's a reason the Hi Power went external !
The reason was making it easier for unskilled labourers to put it together.
I've heard a lot of people talk about this now and I think the honest truth is..
There's seldom a GOOD reason to drop the slide on an empty chamber and if it means that it keeps the gun in better condition for longer just don't do it.
Well said.
Guys do it at matches all the time when they unload, show clear, hammer down, holster.
Good info, thanks
Mrs. GB nails it. Mr. GB follows nicely. You two are great.
Seems as if a gun can contain and control an explosion inside and not break it should be able to open and close empty or not without tearing itself apart
@timjohnson8390 Exactly. Pistols should not be so fragile that they break from the normal operation of the pistol whether loaded or not. If they do then they are out of specification.
Different forces applied differently. If you hit the hammer of a revolver from the back with a hammer, should it be able to take it repeatedly without damaging the ledge holding the sear? Nobody said it'll fall apart, just that it is a bad practice that can cause damage to fine surfaces on some designs. I don't get why it is so hard to grasp. If one drives a car, a car guy also knows not to do certain things when they're cold or extremely hot. But with firearms it seems out of the question.
@@onpsxmember OK nobody said to hit anything with a hammer genius. He was talking about dropping the slide on an empty chamber. If your gun can't take it DONT BUY GLOCK
@@timjohnson8390
It's an example similar to what happens inside the 1911 style pistol. A Glock functions completely different. The mass of the slide that is slamming shut comes to an abrupt stop. That force pulls on the cocked hammer just like it gets hit from behind. If you're familiar with removing dents by pulling on rivets by moving a weight away from and the sudden impulse of the stopped mass yanks on the rivet and the dent.
@@onpsxmemberNothing lasts forever. If you want to treat it with kid gloves you might as well hang it on the wall as decoration instead of using it.
I have two 1911 pistols and two double-stack 1911 pistols, all of recent manufacture. I also have a Browning HighPower that I bought new in 1982. I've never had any negative results from dropping the slide on any of them. I try to avoid doing so just on general principle. It usually is not necessary. I cannot offer any cogent argument against your stated position, but I also cannot offer any against the advice given By Mr. Ayoob and Mr. Wilson in their video. I really don't think I've ever done any harm to my pistols by dropping the slide. Your mileage may vary and all that other happy horse hockey 😲😜
I've never had a problem with a 1911, but I have seen a sheered firing pin on an old .25 ACP that was (Presumably) caused by dry firing. The gun was probably 35-40 years old and was notoriously a POS from its creation.
I replaced the firing pin and it runs fine. As a rule, I don't dry-fire it. Parts are hard to find for this thing.
it's about the competency , who's competent to give valuable opinion , as an engineer I've learned to Listen to technicians and who's the better Technician than Bill Wilson in the industry ?
I think ww2 1911s were commonly made of softer metals. I have read before there are two specifications for 1911s, I think the older having a more lenient RHC standard. I think the original main stay 1911 like the high power was manufactured with a simplified spec with softer and cheaper materials to simplify producing a lot quickly.
Agreed 👍 🤝 💯
It was part of military guard duty change. You showed clear, you dropped the slide and you pulled the trigger. It was protocol. Will it wear out parts faster? Yes. Will you notice anything negative if you do it? Only if you drop an empty slide and pull an empty trigger 1000 times more than you normally shoot the gun. Most people will never outshoot their barrels, much less do enough slide dropping to notice anything negative at all. What’s the old saying? If it can’t shoot steel it doesn’t deserve brass….well then, if it can’t handle a slide drop and a trigger pull, it doesn’t deserve to be purchased in the first place. This is coming from a family raised in all 4 branches of the military and my own 20 plus years of gunsmithing. Take that for what it’s worth.
If it's an antique, treat it as one.
Your EDC shouldn't give you these worries.
The internal extractors Are tougher Who won's on the outside The outside Ones will break quicker than the internal ones
Interesting video. We've never had an issue letting the slide go forward without a round in the chamber. The hammer is usually thumbed down for no particular reason other than trying to take care of anything you own or are lent.
Although we don't borrow firearms on occasion we shoot with associate's or friends. We treat there pistols with a deligent amount of care. If referring to the time's we've shot others single action pistols.
That being said, thank you both for sharing your videos. Have a great evening 🙏
Excuse the sentence structure.🥺
On a 1911 antique or a Wilson Combat which I'm not worthy to own... hence being a low budget pew pew owning peasant I would never drop the slide or ever have a incling of a thought about doing that. On the other hand on my old service 1911, no problemo.
What brand is that 1911?
Tisas. This is the Carry DS model
I've heard dropping the slide on an empty chamber can, over time, damage the extractor. Never heard how much time / drops are needed. Maybe that is an idea for a long term experiment video?
I think I'd need one of those break-in slide-cycling machines to do it as I have yet to see any damage on any of my pistols, including those I took to courses in which salming the slide closed on an empty chamber or racking it several times was done repeatedly. Some of those courses had instructors with 1911s who obviously had to demonstrate over and over and yet they reported no problems.
Makes logical sense to me.
It may be true, it may not be true of modern guns. Problem is no one is nuanced when it comes to grand declarations like this. Do they mean at slide drop 20,000 it’ll break or 10? When they say “I’ve seen it” does that mean the 10th owner of that gun and after 20,000 rounds? Who knows.
My problem is if it is true then it is a fragile problem with the 1911 design that no other pistol suffers from and is a flaw. Beretta 92’s, sig p226’s, and many other hammer fired guns all have very crisp light single action trigger pulls without needing to be babied like a 22lr.
The army also at the time had the doctrine of dropping the slide on an empty chamber for decades. They all survived that without breaking like these “custom” guns.
I also understand that a round being chambered slows the slide down, but the slide is already flying forward much faster during the firing cycle and achieving max compression as it goes backwards causing max speed forward. So if it’s just released from slide stop position it’s not at max speed by comparison. How much more force is applied with and without a round? No one can tell you but it can’t be tremendous.
Also if the force is so drastic that the brass is needed to cushion the breech face slamming against the chamber and barrel it would leave a noticeable dent or deform the brass. Brass is super soft and just extracting the case from the chamber damages the rim slightly. No such mark is on the case if I extract a live round
Great thoughts
Nothing to do with metallurgical standards. Ask a custom 1911 gunsmith.
I'd probably put more trust in older 1911s. So many modern 1911s have cut-rate cast and MIM parts. You're probably good with a modern pistol if the original MSRP was over $1500.
@@TheSuburban15 custom 1911’s can have the sear engagement damaged by slamming without a round. I thought this was common knowledge, but I guess I was wrong.
I probably dry fire my M1911's more than I live fire them. The dates of manufacture range from 1947 to 1999. Never has caused a problem. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber? Never. Never ever do that. When you have a $500 gunsmith fit barrel and a $500 trigger job, never drop the slide on an empty chamber.
I never have. I've always considered it abuse, just like wrist flicking a revolver closed. My biggest question is why you would ever need to? I can't imagine a situation that requires dropping a slide on an empty mag and empty chamber?
I'm NOT a 1911 guy, but I worked at a gun shop with one, and he said dropping the slide without it picking up a round can cause aluminum frames to deform the hole around the slide catch/take down pin. That was only about 10 years ago so I don't know that anything has changed, or maybe he was just repeating bad information that someone else told him.
I think I heard something like that once. Glock guys used to use a similar dogma to defend Glock labeling it a "slide catch" and not a "slide catch/release". Then the internet used that to say that Glocks had soft slides and the Glock boys retracted their statements. I think most of it is lore and misunderstandings.
I have an el cheapo Chinese made Norinco 1911, neither of those have ever been an issue. Trigger is a little gritty, and the slide material is made with some hardened steel which a lot of gun smiths won't touch as it needs some uber expensive carbide tool to cut anything on it, which you have to do if you want some aftermarket sights put on it, as the groves for the sights on a Norinco are smaller than real 1911s.
But for the $350 I paid for it, and the abuse it takes, I really don't care.
It won't hurt anything by not doing it.
They were never built or intended to have the slide sent home on a empty chamber.
There is zero reason to do so. Just ride it home with your hand especially if its not YOURS. It shows respect for the other person and the firearm. How would feel if I kept dropping the slide on your Infinity or Atlas.
I don't have anywhere near the cash for an Infinity or Atlas
If a pistol cant handle dropping the slide, its not strong enough for me. If that breaks your gun you should probably get a better pistol
Here we go!!!!!!!! Start the clown music
If its your gun, do whatever you want. If its at a gunshop from display or belongs to someone else, don't be that guy. Simple.
No What they're referring to is The high-end 1911 That are Fitted tightly They would cause damage to parts of their gun If you do that all the time
So people pay more to have a less-durable gun?
@GBGuns Yes this is very true But I know how to take an older gun Make it much better
@@GBGuns
The closer one moves to extremes, the more finicky things get. They also get less reliable and more ammo sensitive too just like competition setups.
If you hook a finger onto another and pull instad of one letting go (Fingerhakeln) and then try that hooking just the ledge of fingernails. You can see similar issues on knife edge guitar hammy systems.
Why do it when you don't have to.
I heard this a LOT growing up. Both Dad and Grandpa were gunsmiths. NEITHER of them bought into it. We'd always have some old coot come in with his 1911 and handle it like it was a Fabergé egg. My father had two ways of handling guns. What he did in front of the customers and what he did when they weren't there. In my life, I have NEVER seen or heard of anybody experiencing any kind of excess wear, malfunction, or parts breakage from allowing the slide to go home on an empty chamber. NEVER. Not going to happen. If it did, then you replace the, what, extractor? If an extractor breaks when you let the slide go home, it will CERTAINLY have broken in action and needed to have been replaced anyhow.
That said, I can recall at least three experiences I had personally where dry-firing resulted in broken firing pins or peened chambers. I broke a CZ-52 firing pin. I had an FMJ over/under derringer with a peened chamber. I also had the firing pin on my Auto-Nine break on me.
If you have an heirloom that you never intend to shoot, then feel free to treat it with kid gloves. I don't understand what good having a tool is if you never use it, though. Mount that sucker in a case and then sip your soy milk and nom on a banana while voting Democrat and crying... or whatever it is you fragile people do.
With all due respect to you...
I've known family mechanics where dear old grandpa taught dear old dad everything he knew about fixing cars...to include some really ignorant crap.
That you would equate abusing a tool with using a tool and then call anyone disagreeing with you a Democrat or a liberal says more about what dear old Grandpa taught dear old Dad than you know.
@@JD-tn5lz With zero disrespect, sport, you've just detailed how this myth started. One dumbshit telling another dumbshit things when neither of them know what they're doing. I sat there as a kid quietly listening to a parade of people who had broken their guns in myriad ways. Almost to a man, they would always blame SOMETHING. It was almost never their fault, it was always a bad design, bad ammo, etc. Not the obvious hammer marks on the back of the bolt handle or drunk reloading.
Why'd the extractor break? Wasn't because of your double charge and you hammering the front of the slide to get it open, was it? Wasn't the screwdriver you stuck down the bore to try to get the case out of the chamber, was it? No, it's the poor design of John Moses Browning who was incapable of designing a gun you could close the slide on without a cartridge in the chamber?
I keep hearing dumbasses talk about how you had to load the 1911 from the magazine, too. That you couldn't just put a round in the chamber and close the slide. That'll snap the extractor... right? Will it?
While we're at this, please explain the mechanism for damaging the extractor and/or any other part of the 1911 by dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I'll wait.
had a half dozen over the years. never been an issue, after thousands of rounds. Happy Resurrection Day! 💪💖🙏🕊
Nope. Not gunna do it. Bad habits are hard to break.
Wilson Combat spreading Fudd lore
Aaaah. So any voice of years-long experiences and acquired knowledge is summarily dismissed by Your Grace.
😂😂😅
@@JD-tn5lz It is dismissed if it doesn't recognize changes over time. Older 1911's when metallurgy wasn't as great on a lot of internal parts, or custom ones where gunsmiths have tried to bring performance to a razor edge at the cost of potentially compromising parts if they're abused, I can get not dropping the slide on an empty chamber. But telling me your going to break a factory production 1911 by dropping the slide on an empty chamber sounds stupid when we've managed to make guns more durable and reliable over time, and I have never heard of any manufacturer of a non-1911 pistol make the same claim of recommending not to drop the slide on an empty chamber.
It's akin to how I can readily accept Saint Cooper's opinions on software and training as being relevant today but recognize his opinions on hardware never moved beyond the 1980's and should be treated as four decades out of date.
My answer is why would you want to? A huge turn off is being in a Gun shop and some no-nothing salesman drops the slide when putting one back on the shelve. I’ll shop somewhere else. To me you don’t slam a 69, four speed Vett in reverse doing 80 down an interstate, you don’t spit into the wind and you certainly don’t drop the slide on a fine 1911.