The Reverend Boyd seems like a spirit filled Christian. I enjoy his passion, I enjoy watching him get excited about Jesus and I confess I am envious ( I know its a sin) of how excited and alive he feels in Christ. However ; this is one issue I could not walk away from. First let me say, my name is Greg and I was an alduterer and a fornicator. I am neither proud of what I was nor do I run away from it. I've never shared my story with anyone but it truly is a story of God's redeeming grace and how he never leaves you and never stops calling for you, even when you have completely forgotten about him. My problem with this video has a few points i would like to make. As I watched I noticed Rev Boyd put his head down and ever so slightly half speak and gloss over the church's position on gay marriage ( which I agree with) then lift his head and proceed to boldly and loudly proclaim that all sin was wrong and his church just wanted to love everyone .On the surface who can argue with that message but I have to. I said I was a sinner earlier because even then I knew what I was doing was wrong, I never tried to excuse it or looked for acceptance for it. Thankfully God rescued me from that lifestyle. My second issue is this, what does this church plan to do with the homosexuals it lovingly plans to attract because here is my experience. They are not looking for your love, they want your acceptance of their lifestyle. Far too many homosexuals do not accept that what they do is sin and anything you tell them will never register unless you first tell them that it is ok to do what they do. I saw Rev Boyd say it is a sin, but is he willing to tell them that. Is this church willing to draw a line in the sand and say, we love you, we welcome you, but we assume you are here from heart felt repentance and we want to help you leave that life behind you. Anything less than that and you are not truly loving them, you are enabling them.
Fantastically put! Couldn't agree more! "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light." (Ephesians 5:11-13) And when you do that, they (homosexual practitioners) will invariably get defensive and leave the church or if they ARE truly convicted, will repent and remain in the church and will try to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Jeremian Lastly I was particularly offended by your comment. You may not agree with what has been written, but to say that kind of stuff about my (our) God, especially when it is designed to anger me (us), is not only uncalled for because it is blasphemous in nature for us, and it certainly will not win us over to try to empathise with you. It invariably will have the opposite effect. It is that kind of language which perpetuates an escalation of retaliatory vehemence and abusive language. I will not hold that against you, because I understand that you are merely reacting to an unwarranted feeling of rejection. We do not reject you or hate you. It is actually the opposite. We want the best for you. The problem is that you do not see the world as we do. medium.com/@robertoberuffi/the-culture-war-2cbf83fb7b1#.hbfebbgvv
I agree, Greg. I don't see in the Bible that it is a sin to judge. I only see that Jesus warned, judge not lest you be judged. Judgment must begin within the house of God. Look at the Bible, OT and NT, and you will see that godly men pointed out the sins of their neighbors, in order to try to get them to face their sin and forsake it. James said that whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way saves a soul from death. That is loving your neighbor. Help them to forsake their sin, even if they persecute you for it.
unsafegreg I find it very interesting that I watched a video from this very same preacher last night on how Romans 10 salvation will not save. He stated that it preaches a head knowledge of Jesus and does not require a heart change. I believe the example he gives is that it is akin to a legal contract where I say this and believe in my head (which is grossly misunderstood by him) and I have a free ticket to do whatever I want. He said without works (fruit) and a turning away from those sinful pursuits that it basically was not true salvation. So I find it funny that now he is saying the exact opposite when it comes to the subject of homosexuality. Now it's OK because God may be working on something else in their life rather than what the Bible calls an abomination. You're serving two masters and are lukewarm and will be spit out.
All I know is I got sick of projecting hate. I want to draw to people TO Christ; not repel them away. Then, I'll let God convict people of their sins whatever they may be, and stay out of his way.
One of the way he convicts people of sin is through the body (church). You're just taking the easy path because you personally feel uncomfortable with confrontation. There are ways to confront without "projecting hate" (this is a vague /meaningless term unless you're using a projector)
Disaster! False teaching! Yes we should not judge those outside the Church but must not tolerate constant sin inside! Be discerning, brothers and sisters!
Like I said Greg is smarter than me by a country mile...but it just seems he is validating their identity as being "Gay". I know he wants to be sensitive to people who struggle with various sins but at some point you do have to call it sin and as such not something to be proud of as in an identity...rather than something to be dealt with like any other sin.
@@alexanderfloyd5099 Jesus talked about the distinctual nature of the creation of the sexes and how they were female was made for the male to be joined together If people want to."pervert" ie twist God's intention for the sexes... this perversion stems from Satsnic influence to twist and rebel against God's design. The desire if Satan is to get God's crestion- humanity Made in Gods image ...to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what God intended. Satan howls with laughter when mankind rebelelliously degrades their minds and bodies.
@@TIMtalksLIVE 1. Congratulations. Even if being gay is a sin, you still managed to completely miss the point of the video. You seem to be presenting yourself as the exact kind of person that he was speaking to, and you missed it. That's very impressive. 2. About the whole "gay is a sin" thing, well, maybe not. There's a legitimate case to be made that it's not inherently a sin according to Scripture. As with straight sex, it can be misused. 3. Jesus brought up the creation account in reference to a question about marriage. There was no such thing as gay marriage in that society. At that time, marriage was a legal contract between a man and his property, and often very young property at that. Do you really think Jesus endorsed that too, or did He just address the society that He was in?
disgusting!.................it is if one is doing the same thing we cant judge! you will be thrown into the dump with them!................... CRAZY!...........THEY HAVE TO STOP WHAT THEY ARE DOING..............abomination!
The point he begins to make at 4:10 "Why does the church make Homosexuality a greater sin than others in the bible that are mentioned more?" Answer: The other sins, in general, do not have public, powerful, wealthy groups decrying that they are not sins and it is "normal". Would the church or Christians push back any less if groups tried to say that theft or sex outside of marriage was not a sin and normal? I don't think so.
Why do you think those groups are coming out to challenge the Church? Maybe because the Church started it with its historic horrible treatment of homosexual people. We have to change that narrative of hate for certain sinners while ignoring others.
And the devil sits back and laughs. The fact that you say there are openly gay people in your congregation and you won't tell them the truth. Hell is real and these people need to know the truth. Tickling there ears just to grow your congregation does No one any good. Eternity is serious business. God's word never changes. Do your flock a favor and tell them the truth.
Pont well put Tom. Is it loving to condone a gay lifestyle in the body? Greg is an intelligent person, so why all the logical fallacies in this sermon? Is he mistaken or is there another reason?
Why did he only quote 1/2 of verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13? Oh I see, because the first half says that God will judge those outside the church and his point is that we should not judge anyone. Ok... but what about the rest of 13 which says "Put away from you (the church) the evil person"? He left that out because it goes against his anything is ok Christianity racket. This is the same exact thing Satan does when he uses scripture to make his "point".
So, as a sinner yourself, are you not evil? If so, shouldn't we, as the Church, "put away" you? The approach you seem to be taking is one that says Christians should not love sinners. I'm sure you don't believe that, so what exactly do you think his message said that doesn't align with the last half of vs 13?
poor people who are following this guy... when Jesus returns Hes coming with a Sword... nahhh, Jesus is gonna come hang out!! lol.. Repent (turn from your sins) for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... wake up!!!! true love will warn ...but be gracious when u do it...
I agree only some parts like having patience, love, and respect for the LGBT people, as a Christian we are called to respect and love everyone regardless who they are and if they deserve it, for the simple reason that every human was made in the image of God. You all have a precious value in Gods eyes. What I don't agree is that he tries to justify homosexuality marriage amendment by saying that we shouldn't have a care about what politically goes around. The Bible is filled with political dilemmas but Christians stay faithful and true to what they believe and won't give in. Every person is different but don't try to justify any sin only cause you have a specific group of sinners going to your church. I'm sure he ment it in a good way maybe he was even upset but don't make it sound like us Christians don't have a duty to do. We are told time and time again in the Bible to judge righteously, know them by their fruit, discernment of spirits... etc. But never by sight alone. Their sin is out in the air everyone can see it even children. Every sin is the same in Gods eyes cause it separates us from him, but when you know the truth don't try to stop it from spreading or Jesus death and resurrection would have been in vain as apostle Paul says. God bless, I pray for the people of the LGBT group for them to come into repentance. I love you guys, I am straight and I had my struggles coming to Jesus's feet and accepting the truth, but I am here and all that is left to say is that I hope I make it all the way to the end. Don't give up, let the Lord Jesus into your hearts whoever you are wherever you are, he will change you from the inside out ❤
great spirit in this man of love and none condemning for who is to condemn it is Christ that died we should help others and trust in Jesus remember Our Lord died on the cross we didn't.
I attended Woodland Hills met my wife there 8 years ago. I also went on 2 Mission trips with attendees and others while there. I like Greg and his ministry. I have never been under someones teaching who can both enlighten adn infuriate me simultananeously to the degree Greg can. I know he is genius level and i respect his diligence.
I was at this service. I was skeptical then. As time passed, I am less so. But my only fear then has absolutely come to fruition. The gay lifestyle and marriage are not something that concerns me at my core. What I feared was what it would usher in, what follows it through the door. Today, 10 years after, our society is permitting children to mutilate their bodies and poison themselves because they "feel" they are the wrong gender! These are children - people who are not mature adults - and they are cutting off their breasts or their genitals and the adults are letting them, in fact are performing the surgeries. These adults are acting self-righteous as if this naturally should be affirmed, while they take the money to the bank. It is sick, deluded and evil. That my friends is what I feared back then. If you are offended by what I said well then God Bless You - you need to study your own heart and remember that these are immature children, unable to make such profound decisions. You are the adult.
he went to some sort of gay movement event, and he said it FELT RIGHT to him? is that how we judge truth by how it feels? we are sinfull people living in a sinfull dead body, a body of flesh that wants!! to sin. And we are to judge truth by how we feel? he could not be more wrong!!!!, we are to judge truth, not by how we feel, but by THE WORD OF GOD!!!
Yes. He MINISTERED to them. He did not reject them. That was and is Greg Boyds point. Love them without confirming their (or our!) sin. And Greg’s point he has brought up again and again is that politics are not the Christian’s tool to ”stop” people from sinning. That was the pharisees and saducees tool.
Revisited this sermon, I agreed with this sermon back then, but a few thoughts emerged as time goes by, Dear Dr Greg, looking at the world today be it LGBTQ or Islam or Atheism or One world religion, understand that, those people professing those ideas aren't just harmlessly keeping it to themselves, in fact, they are slowly forcing their ideas upon everybody, look at the trend of what are taught in mainstream schools, gender fluidity, Islam being the cradle of civilizations technologies (upfront lie), syariah education, distorted history about palestine, evolution with antitheistic agenda ..etc. I get your point of being all accepting, all inclusive, and non condemning attitude towards unbelievers, but at the same time God did call us to strive to be holy (with the help of holy spirit of course), just like how God called Israel to be a Holy nation, there should be a line of separation when circumstances arise, what is the definition of Holiness again? Luke 8:16 - No one light a lamp and hides it in a jar or under a bed, instead they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. I know we are not perfect, I am not perfect, we are in no position to judge other people of their sin, but there is a huge difference between being judgmental and being vocal and stand up for the virtues of God and His kingdom, that is how light shines. Just my thought, being silent and ambigous in clear cut issues will be perceived by people as condoning. Why did people kill Jesus, apostles and countless saints throughout the ages if they are so meek? it is because they at the same time oppose openly the agendas being forced upon the believers. We should love gays but speak out against homosexualism, we should love muslims but vocally oppose Islam, we should befriend antitheist and exchange views but we have to insist God created the world, don't condemn pregnant teens but at the same time we need to stop them from terminating their pregnancy willfully. In another words I now support the lady who wrote the strong worded letters to you, perhaps she didnt phrase it the way I do, but I believe what I think now is what she mean. Sorry sir, I am truly sorry that I cannot agree with this sermon no more.
Listen to the last of this sermon. Do not fear. Jesus is greater. Christianity, true Biblical Christianity, is growing like never before (despite how it looks in the media).
It's funny how many people in the comments are claiming heresy and completely making his point about christians ranting and raving about one kind of sin and ignoring ones that are far more damaging to the world & that are accepted quite readily in the church itself.
No sin is more damaging to society than allowing a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman. That would totally destroy everyone on earth is two generations! And real Christians do not accept ANY sins readily but stand up against ALL sin, especially their own. So unless you are willing to stand up and be a REAL Christian yourself and fight against sin,especially your own, then you have absolutely no legitimate say so in the matter!
Regen Ducere So you're saying two people expressing their love for each other is a greater sin than the greed that forces vast swathes of humanity to live in poverty, or the hatred that drives people to murder others simply because they don't agree with their race or religion? Way to miss the point.
As a woman who was gay for 30 of her 53 years, this man is lying to you. He is DANGEROUS! The church is for believers, not sinners! We are to go out and make disciples, not bring them in to leaven the whole batch with sin! I cannot allow my ears to be tickled with this nonsense. Jesus died for my sins, and He, as my Savior, has given me a new heart and spirit. My spirit wants NOTHING to do with sin, of ANY kind. Do I make mistakes, of course, but I do not consciously disobey!!!!! So when I hear people like this, who is a wolf in sheep's clothing, I shudder at how many he has misled. Tell me where in the Bible it mentions major or minor sins? The Bible doesn't say major and minor...that is man trying to justify sin. That is this man playing word games with you, because the god he serves likes to play these deceitful games. Ask Eve about the game he played with her! Born Again is not living in your sin. He has no idea what leads to a reprobate mind, because he he is lost, leading the lost, to the edge of a cliff. Romans 1:26-32 EXPRESSLY STATES HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE SIN THAT CAUSES A REPROBATE MIND. In other words, the sin that leads to other sins such as murder! Please, wake up!!!! Find a Bible believer pastor like Charles Lawson or Robert Breaker and submit fully to the will of God! 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
There is a mistake here in Boyd's equivocation with accusation and condemnation. Jesus and His apostles make judgments and call others to make right judgments within the church. However, we are not called to condemn. Knowing the difference between the two is the answer to healthy ministry.
Jesus attracted sinners BUT those people DIDN'T CONTINUE to live a sinful life after meeting Him. I don't see sinners in the Bible that continued a sinful life and at the same time staying in Jesus' presence. As people didn't like the Light 💡 when it came in the world because they didn't want their sinful deeds to be seen. The only people that stayed with deep love in the presence of Jesus [ the 💡 of the World ] were sinners that repented of their sins and stopped doing them. If a sinner feels good in a church while leading a sinful life and if that persons feels comfortable with their sin, then that church "misses Gods target". As it's being said in Psalm 1, that sinners shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous.
Benjamin Ros what about the prostitutes and thieves that he hung out with,, they're described as prostitutes and thieves not ex- prostitutes and thieves
Angel Lewis well you still have to acknowledge your sins and turn away from them. Jesus walked with sinners. But to save them from the grips of sin [I came to call sinners to repentance] and in no way to encourage the sin.
Benjamin Ros quite right. which seems to be exactly what Boyd is advocating here. love is first. not judging or dwelling on the sins of others is a fundamental part of that.
I agree that as believers there is NO need for us to go out of our way to point out the sins of the world (esp. non-believers), however if and when we get asked by the world about their sinful lifestyle, then we need to with both conviction and humility point out what the Scripture says on this subject while speaking of the solution for ALL our sin and brokenness which is the cross of Jesus! There is definitely a difference between going out of our way to tell others about their sin and being asked and sharing the truth in love while NEVER, EVER leaving out the hope that Christ offers.
Just because there are sins in the Bible that are given less attention doesn't mean they are any less important. Not recognizing sin for what it is is a societal mistake. So to say we ignore some sins so that makes this sin right is dangerous territory. Eventually we won't think anything is a sin anymore and humanity will fail.
We can believe in Jesus power to set us free from what He calls sin...we don't have to and cannot persist in rebellion if we're going to call Jesus Lord. Jesus asked, "Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?" He also said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven...only those who do the will of my Father will enter."
God / Jesus calls us all to repentance. No one should expect to enjoy church attendance or experience Gods peace, love or joy of salvation if they’re continuing to sin unrepentantly. Consider what Jesus himself said in Mathew’s gospel, chapter 11... “Then began he (Jesus) to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:” 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Matthew 11:20 KJV www.bible.com/1/mat.11.20.kjv This sadly confused person (Boyd) needs to read Matthew 11... and listen to Jesus abraid cities which failed to REPENT.
You are twisting scripture to fit your narrative or the cultures narrative. You can profess God's truth in love and still stand by the Bible. Please share this also with the female pastor. If you are born again, ,you desire to be in line with God's word. Of course women will desire to pastor, of course women will desire to lead men, that is how we are wired. But God commands obedience and if we love him, we will keep his commandments. If we justify our sins, then we are not saved/born again. I know - I was experiencing the intellectual and emotional experience of Christianity, but never repented to God for my sins. ONce I saw how sinfully sinful my sin was - against a HOLY, All consuming, All mighty God who was storing up wrath, I fell to my knees and ask God to forgive me of my foolishness. I deserved wrath, I deserved hell and Jesus saved me. God gave me new desires - now I feel it automatically when I'm outside God's will, and I repent and walk in his word. Please stay close in God's word daily so you know his nature and his commands.
Jesus chose Paul to be an apostle for the church, Paul is quite clear on sexual sin and how wilful sinners should be admonished and if no repentance should be forbidden fellowship with the brethren to avoid the leven levening the whole lump. Jesus came to fulfil the law, just because many churches are morally weak weak with many of its congregations doesnt mean thats a model to just accept. If the churches do not hold up a standard to aim for then the church will dissolve into an amoral mess. Jesus said to the cripple ....sin no more.
All unrighteousness is sin true. but don't use that to confuse the issue, compromise, water down or appease Gay people. speak the truth to them in love. (Repent and believe to Gospel.) Christ Died for even Gay people! But once you have given your heart to him by faith and repentance you must now renounce and reject the Gay lifestyle/marriage. You cannot serve Christ and continue in sin. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound god forbide. If you really want life eternal and to please God, you can no longer live as a Gay man or woman married or not. Christ love's you and want's you to live. But in Holiness not unrighteousness or sin. The choice is yours choose life and make heaven you home.
Mike Honaker This message says exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Greg's stand against mixing Christianity and politics lost his church a whole bunch of people. Everything he does calls down new wrath from the American religious elites. He's not scratching itching ears, he's speaking truth as he sees the scripture tell it and drawing the ire of the pharisees. This is not new.
You are not being contextual with the words of Jesus when you speak of the passage about seeing a speck in your brother's eye - and here lies a great portion of your error - [ In another speech you made against the sovereignty of God - you made big issue on considering the context - then you went on to contradict yourself when speaking of the potter and the clay and tried to directly compare humans with God by stating that the potter in Jerimiah 18 forms the clay and does so as responding to the clay as if it has a mind of its own and you stated that God had no choice but to respond to the clay's own determination - WHAT HERESY ! - [ In this case of seeing the speck in your brother's eye - you ignore the context and all the passages of the bible that command us to bring sinful practices out in the open and rebuke our brother and you wrongly assert that we have no good reason to mention any sin we see because Jesus asked the question - why do you see the sin in others when you do not notice your own sin ? - NOW COMES THE CONTEXT [ Luk 6:42 (ESV) How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. [ The context clearly emphasizes that Jesus is not telling you to ignore other scriptures about bring sin to light and rebuking your brothers - He is talking about hypocrites who do not recognize their own inability to conquer their evil ways - but they think they are righteous enough to help conquer the evil in someone else [ The truth of these verses is magnifying the truth of God's sovereignty by showing us that - in the same way that we cannot conquer sin in our own life - we cannot do it for our brothers [ Can a leaper change his spots ? No - and a sinful man cannot stop sinning - ONLY the spirit of God can restrain sin - [ So when we finally realize that we cannot lean on our own understanding and power to overcome sin in our own life and we realize that ONLY the grace and power of God is responsible for every good thing - including the restraint of evil in our own life - then we understand what Jesus is saying [ If you understand that only God can take the sin out of your life - then you understand that only God alone can take the sin out of your brother's life ] However if you don't understand that - and you wrongly think that you can remove the sin from your own life - then you are a hypocrite and you wrongly think that you can point to the sin of your brother and tell him that you know how to help him get the sin out of his life - [ that is the fallacy of free will thinking - it is human centered [ God made Adam perfect and when Adam sinned - every person from him except Jesus was a lump of clay that had their own corrupted mind against God - no difference between one lump or the other - there were not some lumps better than others - they all have gone out of the way because there is none that seeks God [ God could be perfectly just and let every singe one of us continue in corruption on our way to hell - just like before the flood everyone killing each other etc . - and God would not be responsible for any of their sin . [ can a bitter spring bring forth sweet water ? can a leopard change his spots ? [ no and a corrupt lump of clay cannot have a good thought or understanding of anything good because goodness is spiritual and the natural mind cannot understand anything spiritual - so no one has ears to hear or eyes to see because they are dead in trespasses and sin [ no one would ever hear or see the truth UNLESS God acted first - to take the corrupt lump of clay and CHANGE it [ Romans 9 [ remember don't just look at a verse or two and then make a big humanistic speech about it thinking you know what the bible teaches when you ignore the greater context [ also - don't twist the context to what you want it to be and contradict yourself and teach heresy by saying God has to mold the clay the way the clay wants to be molded [ you read romans 9 then you claimed it was a lie [ you rightly stated that you don't worship a God as defined in romans 9 - because you don't want God to tell you what to do - you want your own god that has no choice but deal with you according to your own inclinations [ such is the fallacy of human centered religion - free will [ the only true religion is God centered and it specifies that everything good comes from God and God does everything good - God shows His power and His glory by everything He ordains to come to pass [ you spoke about how you could not imagine to give God glory if anything bad happened to your children ] have you considered what God ordained to happen to His Son ? [ if God can bring the greatest glory to Himself by ordaining the the death of His Son at the hands and by the actions of dirty rotten lumps of clay - He can bring glory to Himself by anything and everything that He ordains to come to pass [ that is the full context of the bible [ read it again [
We are all sinners but the difference between a saint and a sinner is we get up again 🫣 Really? You are either a saint or a sinner… because they are 2 opposite ends of the spectrum,
There is a good amount of truth here; however, Boyd ignores several verses that deal with sinning believers: "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame." 2 Thes.3:14 "Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning." 1 Tim. 5:20 "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted." Galatians 6:1 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:3 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17 It seems like the post-modern church (much like the post-modern world it resides in) likes to take the easy way out, either wantonly castigating "sinners" or engaging in the cult of "do not judge!" Perhaps the church should teach people not only how to repent of their own sins, but how to help lead others to repentance (in humility and gentleness). The great problem with this is that it takes time to teach it, and it takes time to engage in the process, and we find ourselves in a time and place where shortcuts in all things are preferred.
"Having this humble attitude always attracts sinners of all sorts." -- That's almost true. The only sinners that kind of "humble" attitudes doesn't attracts are those who are truly saved by God, those who love being corrected, reproved, and even disciplined by God, those who love the truth and hate the sin, and those who are in this world but don't appeal to this world and don't mix with this world and don't belong to this world. These people, sir, you can never attract with your false teaching and fake humble attitude. Stop that, and start repenting.
+haiyingz Wow...have you even checked out Dr. Boyd before disparaging him? How do you know is humility is fake? Bearing false witness is something that I don't believe is congruent with following Jesus.
Kevin Thomas Do you understand this: Humility towards men but not to God's Word (and therefore to God) is the greatest arrogance? I wish you did, but apparently you don't.
"those who are truly saved by God, those who love being corrected, reproved, and even disciplined by God, those who love the truth and hate the sin, and those who are in this world but don't appeal to this world and don't mix with this world and don't belong to this world" Those who meet that definition are the 99 sheep the shepard left in search of the lost one. Those are the healthy that the doctor didn't come for. Those are not the ones who surrounded Jesus. Or do you think anyone who would meet those standarts BEFORE meeting Jesus would still have been a prostitute or tax collector? All it took for people to be welcomed by Jesus with open arms was one simple thing: The recognition that they needed redemtion. That is ALL you need to come. And it is those that feel that need that you want to attract, regardless of what state they are in, regardless of how lost they are, regardless of how deep they are entangled in sin. THOSE are the lost sheep, those are the sick, those are the sinners Jesus came to call.
That is ALL you need to come? Then why in James does it say Faith without works is dead....... Dead meaning you have (dead faith) Jesus said if you are not born again you will not see the kingdom of God. You need more than just a recognition of redemption. Regeneration = Justification = Sanctification
+Daniel Gilbert Works are the result of salvation, not it's cause. What I was talking about what it takes to come to Jesus. Not about what it takes to follow him. As someone once put it, "Salvation costs nothing, discipleship costs everything". But it is impossible to be a disciple if you didn't recieve salvation first. And there is no condition to recieve salvation other than the recognition that you need it. Your deeds will verify wether you truly recieved salvation or not (which is how I understand the passage in James that you reference), but they are not the condition. Just look at the man who was crucified next to Jesus; He was given entry to paradise on one thing alone: He begged Jesus to remember him once he ruled in heaven. He had no deeds to show for, he was a criminal, deservant of death by his own admission. Yet his faith was real nontheless. So James can't be talking about what it takes to recieve salvation, but about what defines living faith after recieving salvation. We are talking about those that aren't christians yet in this context, not about those who claim they are and are living in sin (that's a different topic). And for those that don't know Jesus yet (the group that a church should want to attract, since we are supposed to be the light of the world), recognition of the need for redemption is all it takes.
Jesus said, "Go and sin no more" when He was led to by Father God. He did not tell everyone to repent all the time. He only did what He saw the Father doing. Eventually, people will come to the point where they are willing to do God's will, if they are saved. For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. He may use us to confront sin, like Nathan, but let's be led by the Holy Spirit and be HUMBLE when confronting sin in a believer - not self righteous.
Solomon, do you believe the Bible to be inspired of God? I just need to know where you are coming from. Either way, I still think that confrontation of another brother or sisters sin needs to be done in humility and gentleness - not in self righteousness or thinking you are better than that person.
Sarah Vogel My convictions on the inspiration of the Bible are irrelevant. If we are to trust the words, they must be trustworthy. Words that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts are not AS trustworthy.
Solomon Parker Yet, they reflect God's character perfectly in this case, I believe. Jesus does tell the woman caught in adultery to sin no more. Yet, he does this only after she is sure of his love for her. Jesus stands against those who wish to condemn her and execute her, which according to the law is what she deserves. Yet, Jesus is merciful and does not condemn her. Jesus does not condemn her sin! That is the gospel if ever I heard it. After saving her life, Jesus sanctifies her, not before. True, that your convictions of the inspiration of the Bible are irrelevant, but that is not to say that whether the Bible is or is not the inspired word of God is irrelevant. It is relevant.
suckyskiz I would tend to agree, but my faith is in Jesus, not the nature of the inspiration of scripture. So I'm not going to bank my theology on verses that may have been added later. That comes from a modern western post-enlightenment mindset the writers of the Bible certainly had no knowledge of.
"Judging always drives them away." Is that why Peter said that Israel killed Jesus and had to repent, lest they be destroyed by God in Acts 2 and 3? Is that why Paul said the Athenians had false gods and will be judged by God unless they repent? Is that why Jesus told sinners to sin no more? Isn't that judging? This fluffball Christianity has nothing to do with the New Testament.
So sin is greater than any other. All sin is sin. Jesus says if we love him we will keep his commandments. That means All sin must stop. When we become New in Christ we go and sin no more. We Repent, we confess our sins to G-d and go and sin no more. Yes we will stumble and fall, but being Christians Jesus will catch us and set us back on the right path. So even the homosexual can come to Jesus, repent and be saved. But they can't continue in a homosexual relationship. If they can't become attracted to the opposite sex, then they should abstain from Sex altogether. In Scripture, "Take up thy Cross and Follow me." --- Whatever your Cross to carry, Carry it with prayer for help daily and Sin No More. Do not judge those that stumble. We as Christians are suppose to help each other in our struggles to let go of sinful ways.
This guy made a lot of good points. I agree that many Christians elevate the sin of homosexuality above other sins that they then let slide. Abortion and adultery are two good examples. For we see pastors supporting divorce and remarriage, which is adultery according to Jesus. I see a problem though in down playing the fact that homosexuality is called an abomination in scripture. He also tries to give the impression that Jesus repeatedly went back to and spent time with great sinners. But this is not the case. For we are never told that Jesus went back to and spent time with people who refused to change after he gave them his original message. So while it is true that Jesus spent time with sinners, it was so that they could hear a message that they would never hear from the Pharisees. But there is not a single verse that says Jesus went back to them or let them join his ministry if they did not repent and turn from their wicked ways. He also ignores the passages that say we are to judge righteously and to kick people out of the church if they continue to live in sin. Jesus attracted sinners who repented and changed their ways. Did Levi remain a tax collector? so let me make this perfectly clear. Corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes who wanted to remain as such and who wanted to continue sinning did NOT "hang out" with Jesus. It's true that Jesus met them and invited them to walk the narrow and difficult path that leads to the kingdom of God. But he did NOT "hang out" with them if they chose not to repent and change their ways for the same reason that he did not hang out with Pharisees who refused to repent. Bragging about the number of unrepentant gays in his church is not a good sign.
TrustinJC I see what you're saying. Years ago I would have said the same and thought I was being reasonable. But for me, if I still thought this way, I know I wouldn't be loving. I'd just be intellectually right in my mind. That said, and I mean no disrespect, I think Greg's point is more about judging against homosexuality and homosexuals while the church is full of sinful people who have "christianized" their sin. Gluttony? Pride? We have unrepentant Gays in my church. Neither our pastor nor Greg Boyd tell them it's just cool, or okay. But we treat them with love hoping they will see the light. And while, yes, we can kick people out of the church, Paul also said just after, that we can forgive them also. It's not a command. And doesn't love "keep no record of wrong"? Today's culture is vastly different than ancient ones and if we've found new ways to work with others in love, I fail to see the problem. Either way, a quick study on the word "abomination", shows that the English word is much more severe in it's meaning than any of the Hebrew, Latin or Greek counterparts. Not saying it isn't a sin, but it isn't necessarily held up as worse, or somehow more hideous than eating shellfish, stealing, or any number of other sins. It isn't more reprehensible than murder, and yet prison ministries are all the rage while ministering to homosexuals is still seen as somehow bad, especially if they don't immediately repent.
An abomination? It's interesting that we all point to that word and that verse in context of homosexuality. Jesus' strongest language about sin came in Matthew 5:21-26 when he says that when his followers label another a "fool" that they are in danger of "the fire of hell." Or, in Matthew 18, Jesus declares that those who cause children to stumble (I think that there's a good case Jesus is talking about pedophilia here) would be better off if they drowned themselves in water.
As a woman who was gay for 30 of her 53 years, this man is lying to you. He is DANGEROUS! The church is for believers, not sinners! We are to go out and make disciples, not bring them in to leaven the whole batch with sin! I cannot allow my ears to be tickled with this nonsense. Jesus died for my sins, and He, as my Savior, has given me a new heart and spirit. My spirit wants NOTHING to do with sin, of ANY kind. Do I make mistakes, of course, but I do not consciously disobey!!!!! So when I hear people like this, who is a wolf in sheep's clothing, I shudder at how many he has misled. Tell me where in the Bible it mentions major or minor sins? The Bible doesn't say major and minor...that is man trying to justify sin. That is this man playing word games with you, because the god he serves likes to play these deceitful games. Ask Eve about the game he played with her! Born Again is not living in your sin. He has no idea what leads to a reprobate mind, because he he is lost, leading the lost, to the edge of a cliff. Romans 1:26-32 EXPRESSLY STATES HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE SIN THAT CAUSES A REPROBATE MIND. In other words, the sin that leads to other sins such as murder! Please, wake up!!!! Find a Bible believer pastor like Charles Lawson or Robert Breaker and submit fully to the will of God! 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
That was one of the Best Sermons Greg Boyd has ever given! He nailed those truths to The Cross Baby!!! "Homophobic verse clustering" is a childish and satanic strategy designed to exclude some from the Love and Grace of our Lord. 3-5% of any population at any time in history, has always been "Gay". It's part of the diversity of Homo sapiens. Voting "for" or "against" such things is a total waste of time in The Kingdom. Leave Gay people alone and get on with serving Jesus and doing his will!
Listening to you preach makes my heart heavy. Because you come so close--I almost want to jump up and down and cheer. I want to stand up and clap when you say if we're going to start making laws against homosexuals, you'd rather throw people in prison for being too rich, for being too greedy, for having so much and not caring for the poor. I'm happy you encouraged your people not to be over-concerned about how the vote goes. But your message is so damaging, so destructive...I'd almost rather you told them to vote against marriage. I'd almost prefer a fire-and-brimstone anti-LGBT sermon than this. I'd almost prefer open opposition than this kind of subtle, pernicious hatred that masquerades as love. I'd almost prefer you to run at me swinging a sword than to approach me with a smile on your face, with a hidden knife you plan to sink into the very core of my identity as soon as you've convinced me you're my friend. Because I hear what you're saying. Homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, you say. We should work on the sin of idolotry, the sin of being judgemental, the sin of selfishness and callousness and greed just as much as we worry about the sin of homosexuality. But you are STILL calling homosexuality a sin. You are naming the way someone IS and calling it just as bad as being a liar or a thief or greedy. You are saying that if someone falls in love with someone else, that love is a problem to be solved, just like excess eating would be a problem to be solved. I am a heterosexual man. I don't know if that's the most important thing about me, but it is indeed a part of who I am. If you were to tell me I can't be heterosexual...if you were to tell me the love I feel for a woman is akin to stealing...if you were to insist I not only can't get married, but I must never seek romance again...you would be launching an attack against who I am as a human being. And if you made me think you were my friend first? If you invited me into your church, if you accepted me, if you loved me, if you got me to let my guard down and listened to my hopes and dreams and fears, if you became an important part of my life and made yourself my support group--and then turned against my very nature? Well. No thank you. I'd rather you just wave a sign in my face and hate me than this false love.
If Greg Boyd is reading this: when you say that Jesus wouldn't make the sins of the tax collector illegal, are you implying that financial fraud should be legal (since that was what the tax collectors did)? I would be curious on your logic for this, whether you say yes or no.
I think Pastor Greg would have been well advised to look at Jesus dealing with the woman at the well and how He pointed to her sin and loved her enough to invite her to life change...Jesus didn't just "Love em and shut-up..."
2 Peter 3:9 is clear that God in His love does not want that anyone should perish but all must come to repentance.. God is good and reaching His hands towards sinners to come to the knowledge of truth of the gospel and be saved. However, God also requires that we be holy as He is holy. True relationship manifest honesty and trust. God is willing to turnaround things that we may become the children that belongs to Him. God through His Spirit convicts is of sin that we may repent and walk according to His will. In love, we may admonish homosexual of the severity of sin of getting into sexual relation with same sex and with this God is still reaching out to them that they may come into repentance and be saved. Total submission is necessary in order to be accepted by God. He will help homosexuals to understand the severity of their situation and will reach out a loving hand to save them as they repent and put their faith in the risen Christ.
So, Greg Boyd will not preach on political issues? Doesn't think political issues deserve an entire sermon? So, he doesn't believe in preaching the entire counsel of Scripture? The issue IS NOT that everyone sins or that homosexuality is a worse sin than lust or adultery. The issue is about whether certain sinful lifestyles will be promoted by public policy. The Church is supposed to be the salt and light of the culture and to stand in the gap when the culture dashes headlong into the abyss. Instead of showing the culture what is righteous, Boyd opts for conflating the promotion of righteous public policies with judging people. I would not sit under his leadership.
The Bible mentions homosexuality a total of 5 times. It mentions Greed and poverty a total of 2-3000 times. To quote Rev William Barber it's amazing to me how Christians spend so much energy on what the Bible says so little of and so little energy on what the Bible says so much about. Furthermore Jesus says "I have not come to all respectable people but the outcast" and said to the teachers of the law "Go learn what it means I demand mercy and not sacrifice"(Matthew 9:13). Many people in the Church show such little mercy and only malice, hatred, vitriol and vindictiveness to those in the gay community.
JANHOI MCCALLUM Not true. Christians don't hate the gay community. There is a difference between hating someone and saying that their lifestyle is immoral.
Melchizedek was mentioned about two times in all of the old testament. The significance of the role the order of Melchizedek plays in the latter stages of Scriptures the Jewish people miss til this day. Big sin little sin, sin is sin.
Janhoi Mc Callum. At the point that there is an organized group of Christians campaigning to call one of the other sins not only normal but God ordained, then that will become focal as well. This is not a battle over which sin is greatest, but rather a battle for the integrity of the Bible. Trying to side step this and normalize it by saying there are other sins that happen too simply reeks of compromise and appeasement.
Interesting, Janhoi, there have been several credible responses and no rebuttal from you. You quote Matthew 9:13. Interesting that you ignore Jesus' teachings on righteousness and what the standards of marriage are. You seem a bit selective in your focus. Why is that?
Sorry folks, but I urge you to stay away from Greg! He is too weak to speak out against wickedness like we are supposed to do, and he also supports Gun Control!
This poor man is so mislead and misleading. Here is a good example of God's grace. This man has not received judgement at the time it was due (Just as all of us) and has been afforded an opportunity to change. I hope he does.
The pastor's (shepherd) responsibility is to preach the full council of the word of God, under the annointing of the Holy Spirit and to protect the sheep from the wolves.
God hate sin,let us lean and try to all live a righteous life.psalm 24 vs 3 says who can,ascend into the hill of the lord,he DAT has a clean hand and a pure heart.
sinners did not continue to fellowship with Jesus unless they repented - if your church is preaching the gospel then sinners will not continue in your church if they do not repent - if your church did as Jesus did and convicted sinners of their sin by preaching the gospel and God granted them repentance then it would be good to continue fellowship [ if you welcome sinners and leave them in their sin then your church has no love and no gospel - Jesus would not continue fellowship with any sinner that refused to repent and so the church also has no fellowship with the heathen [ I am speaking of church membership and Christian fellowship - not just being kind and friendly [ unrepentant sinners should feel uncomfortable in church - not welcome because there is no gospel being preached - when the gospel is preached - sinners either become convicted and repent or they turn away and leave . [ if unrepentant sinners feel comfortable at your church for very long then it is a sure sign that there is no gospel being preached and the Holy Spirit is not present
Perhaps I missed this but how do you square your teaching from "Twisted Scripture" dealing with women not teaching or having authority over women when you pointed to Galatians and said our primary identity is no longer based on our gender or social status but that the passage says our new identity is solely in Christ? You said there is neither male nor female as concerning gender distinction. Isn't it using this same argument you make for scripture not meaning to bar women from being in authority over men because it was specific to the Ephesian culture and the overarching principle is oneness in Christ that Matthew Vines uses in "God and the Gay Christian?" Why is there no gender distinction when it comes to women as elders but there now is when it comes to same sex marriage?
My beef is that he says in the clip we welcome "gay folks" here..it would have been good to clarify "just like any other sinner...adulterers, fornicators, liars, thieves- sinners are welcome here.because we believe when they come in contact with Jesus in an intimate way and understand the signicance of his sacrifice- they will be transformed from the inside out and be able to overcome through His gracewhich empowers up to transitioninto & partake of the divine nature.
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Patricia Obst I take it you're referring to 1 Cor 5. Did you know that Apostle Paul's letter was to a saintly class of leaders that would become martyrs? Refer further on on that letter to 1 Cor 6:1-3 where he says that they would be judging angels later. Those judging angels are mentioned at Revelation 20:4. They are martyrs who were executed for their faith in Christ Jesus. Not every Christian is in that class. How therefore are we fit to judge and remove people?
5:30...We are INSTRUCTED to judge others !!!!!..... LUKE 17:2 IF YOUR BROTHER SINS AGAINST YOU, REBUKE HIM !!!..... THEN, IF HE REPENTS, FORGIVE HIM..BUT..... READ YOUR BIBLE DUDE !!!!
I can't speak for everywhere in the United States or other countries, however I personally know some pretty awesome Spirit filled churches that are totally LGBTQ affirming .. so much so that they just happen to be some of the leading ministries sought out by people around the country. As a gay man, I can't even imagine going to a church where I am "tolerated" or accepted until I am what that particular church believes is God's Word.Will for LGBTQ people. Indeed ... ALL of us who are in process of transformation come to know that (as one of my Spiritual Directors told me) "It's an inside job" If there are LGBTQ people who are willing to be tolerated "until the change comes", it's not my job to make their decision ... however, I could never be at home at a church like yours, no matter how good your other teaching is.
reinforce your opinion) then you will clearly see, that it’s His Grace and His Love that must always supersede our limited judgment of folks. I personally may not agree with it, or even like it, but I am never ever a Divine Arbitrator of God’s Incredible Mercy and Compassion for my fellow man! It’s the Hoy Spirits job to convict someone of their personal sins, not mine! Gay folks will always be welcome at my church!!!!
The monologue wasn't about adultery so that's why he doesn't say it here. There's always a big distinction between adulterers and LGBT folks in the religious perspective. One is a marginalized group and one it a sinning group. What you've presented is focused on the sin aspect. Boyd is focusing on the marginalized nature of the LGBT community. Both adulterers and LGBT folk should be discipled. Just some thoughts. :) peace on you.
he says being gay is no worse of sin than being an adulterer...then why would he say he is happy that more and more gay people have been attending woodlan Hills and why did he not say that he is happy that more and more adulterers are attendending he church... seeems like he is legitimizing their ie. "hamartia" "missing the mark" "sin" is something to be proud of....he speaks out of both sides of his mouth to be accepted with the "cool" people of the world.
thousands of people globally who are born with these conditions every year. (?) I guess this comes down to the difference in thought that - Another's "Sexual Preferences" (within reason of course excluding animals, children, vegetables, etc..) are they're Own Personal Business and between Them and Their Lord and Savor - NOT BETWEEN THEM, THE LORD and MY OPINIONS. I stay out of their equation, as should you.
The real question here in a aforementioned example is - Does someone like Caster Semenya or (others born with similar physical conditions or god given attributes) actually need “healing” as you’ve stated in your last post (?) If you are psychologically and physiologically born with a condition then how is it a “sin” ??? Obviously, I’m am not conflating here the general “Sinful Nature” that we are all are born with but rather those things that are not a matter of our choice, or lifestyle, etc.
judgments about these people and neither should you! All right then, let’s look at a real life example of what I’m talking about, as opposed to just hypotheticals. The 2012 Olympic Women’s 800 Meter Silver Medalist, “Caster Semenya”, whom we are both probably well aware of and who has been in the media limelight recently because of the controversy surrounding the authenticity of her gender, I feel fits perfectly into this supposed “category” that we’ve been discussing.
All deception is half truth. Jesus was full of grace AND truth. There is no question that Christians are to be full of grace with all people in light of their own sin. But the foundational issue of faith is repentance according to Jesus. Whatever your sin is...do you believe in Jesus to not only forgive you but cleanse you? Jesus received sinners with the command to go and sin no more. It's not grace according to truth to give them false confidence that they can hold onto sin and Jesus.
Be in His presense.. and as Christians we are called to be a holy and set apart people for the Lord, we are supposed to be different, peculiar. Wemust remember that although we are in this world we are not of it, and therefore cannot approve of what God does not approve of. Yes its the choice of the person to sin, but it is not the Christians choice to say that it is ok, you gave up any rights you had when you gave your life to God, no if andor buts.
Are not to be partakers with them. Also paul says, let not even be named among you! (Nkjv) yes we are caled to love and tell them of Jesus's love and what He did for them, but that's as far as we should be going... pastor greg is telling you what you want to hear which is why you love it! Remeber why God destroyed soddom with fire and brimstone? Homosexuality. God loves the sinner but hates the sin, and until that sinner repents and asks forgiveness God cannot and will not allow him/her to
While yes it is true that we are not called to judge those outside the church as that is God's job, what of those who clame to be believers, and are openly gay? Are we not called to confront them? And I realize that many "Christians" are living in the flesh and in sin, but their sin is not in the open and can not be delt with until its brought into the light, Ephesians 5:1-7 speaks of how people living in fornication (any sexual sin) will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, and that we
Thanks for standing up for the special sinners who identify as homosexual. I think your church shoul also support the 'minor attrated' souls who were 'just born' that way. We should love them and support their needs to 'love' minors. Maybe we could start a support group for men who steal, and lie and etc etc. They were born that way and can't help it. JESUS SAID (and I paraphrase here) ..I don't care who you beleived yourself to be when you were born, ("I think I'm gay, I think I'm trans, I think I am 'attracted' to minors', I think I'm bisexual, etc etc...". YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! May God open your eyes pastor.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what he is saying...but much of his argument for not "legislating morality" could also be used for murder...or pedophilia.
To ignore wrong by put your loving arm around some one who sins (whatever sin) and superficially accept them without communicating the need for repentance with the gifts of forgiveness and healing to follow is escorting them to a precipice over which they fall into a horrid eternity. Jesus said many times REPENT. He said it without being judgemental, but He did say it.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Has Mr Boyd totally forgotten 1Corinthians the 5th chapter" 1 Corinthians 5:1-6 NIV It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. [2] And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? [3] For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. [4] So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, [5] hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. [6] 6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough" Paul clearly tells them your boasting of your love and tolerance is NOT good a little leaven leavened the whole batch. Keep on playing with thise committing sexual sin, which by the way is WARNED ABOUT OVER AND OVER through both old and new testament and see if you don't get burned. You are SO wrong Mr Boyd, homosexuality DO NOT desire love, they desire acceptance, the need you to tell them they are right, worst thing you can do. Of course love them, that's given, my sister has been delivered from 20 years of lesbianism, By PRAYER AND FASTING AND LOVING HER, but never accepting her lifestyle, you Sir are twisting scripture
The bible doesn't extensively address the sin of sexual child abuse either, but I dare Mr. Boyd to tell me that this is not an egregiously worse sin than over-eating. There are indeed degrees of sin measurable by the magnitude of the harm they tend to cause. Some sins are more injurious than others, whether the bible speaks of them often or not. Mr. Boyd often does a merry dance around certain issues, as a matter I assume of wisdom in addressing culture. But it is frustrating at times.
I think I get the gist of your sermon...Since everyone sins we should embrace sin...why fight against a losing battle. I suppose there is nowhere in the bible that says repent since that is a form of judgment! Galatians 6 1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
"Doesn't physis teach you that if a man has long hair it is shameful [atimia]?" -- 1 Corinthians 11:14. Paul uses the EXACT same Greek phraseology for same-sex (or at least male-male) intercourse in Romans 1:26-27* Boyd knows this, but he never mentions it. Yes, there are other passages that could be discussed, but for now I'm just focusing on the Romans passage because I find Paul's issue with long haired men to be fascinating. (* which is arguably about cultic sex rituals anyway... rituals involving male-male sex, which is para physis and atimia).
Greg Boyd is preaching moralism, not the Gospel. The apostle Paul preached the Gospel, not moralism. The Gospel is REPENT of your sin and receive eternal life through Jesus Christ. There is no forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is a gift from God. It does not come from us. We do not contribute anything to our salvation. We do not choose Christ, He chooses us.
By this logic all the prophets should have just shut up and nobody has any right to speak up about sin unless they are sinless. Satan is the accuser who tries to silence those who should speak and stand for truth by accusing them and piling guilt and shame on them and telling them have no ground to stand on. Do not let the enemy undermine your calling to disciple the nations and teach them to obey and immobilize the kingdom of God by letting guilt and shame weigh on us. We are free and forgiven and yes we must check for the logs in our eyes first so we can better see to help our brother! Repent of our sins and then help our brother see his fault as well to help lead him into the way and truth and life. Do not let people or the enemy shut you up by shaming you. If it's legitimate criticism repent, find forgiveness and freedom in Christ and continue to bring light, life, and truth in a loving way.
So according to this guy, the church should have zero judgement or opinion on which way to vote on social issues? Pass the weed over here and embrace the Marxism? No judgement on issues? Taken IN CONTEXT, the section in judging others he refers to means to be cautious about it but do judge righteously. We are commanded to love what God loves and hate what God hates.
On the argument that Christians should not make judgements or seek to censor behaviour of 'the world'; if Wilberforce and Martin Luther King (and other Christian game-changers) had that same approach then slavery and civil rights issues may not have been addressed so seriously. Also comparing Jesus' political response to ours is a false comparison as Jesus was living in a context in which the Jews were under the control of the Romans, not in a democratic society where we can have our voice heard through a vote on how we want society to look like or how we want marriage defined. Lastly, the slippery slope is real. In Australia, things have moving toward pre-school education where homosexual relationships and transgender identification is normalised and anyone having any kind of opposing or 'traditional' opinion is vilified and being denied the 'freedom of expression' which the zealots for gay marriage claim to be fighting for. Adolescents still developing their sexual identify and perspectives are encouraged to take any sexual approach desired without any moral guidance; and early sexual transitioning is being praised. Sometimes to go against the tide of society is not judgemental, it's simply making a mark in the sand on where we stand - while loving those around us.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men (such as Greg Boyd) crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus forgave the woman taken in adultery but he didn't stop there; He told her to stop committing adultery. He told her to repent of her sin and stop doing it. If someone has been truly saved; truly born of the Spirit of God, it's because, under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, the sinner sincerely confesses and repents of his sin and receives God's grace through faith in the death and Resurrection of Jesus. From then on, the Holy Spirit continually works through love, to bring the truly self-denying, cross-carrying disciple into allignment with God's Word and will. This dying to self demands the continual placement of the heart upon God's altar of sacrifice and it involves intense pressures of many trials and testings and requires the disciples deepest trust that his Heavenly Father will conform him to the image of the Master. God bless and Shalom.
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked person from among you.'" 1 Corinthians5:12-13. He did not quote the full verse. There are judgments that are to be made. God give us the grace and courage to do them well.
ye..to unsafegreg,...because we have to separate this..Jesus separate it, but also give them, and us chance..this is repentance...acccepttation to to repentance(this what change life a new born creation, when you are born from spirit..sound known?Greg?? Make free those bounded people living in sin, so they can be free and live normally..
The gay marriage amendment was not about punishment or imprisonment. It was about legitimizing a non-legitimate relationship. Why should anyone with a biblical world view support that, or fail to oppose it? Opposing the gay marriage amendment does not mean punishing anyone. It is simply denying a "right" to people to engage in sinful acts and have that sinful relationship legitimized in the law of the land. It is the support of an ungodly thing. The NT says to keep the marriage bed holy. To call something that is an abomination "marriage" is to degrade the idea of marriage in our culture. Why should anyone with a biblical world view stand by and not oppose that? How is it wrong to oppose it? What if a group of people started petitioning for legitimizing rape or incest? Would it be wrong for us to oppose that? We ought to be shining lights in this crooked and depraved generation. Shining lights do not hide in the darkness under the banner, "Do Not Judge," or, "I Am Just as Bad of a Sinner as You are. I Have No Right to Say That You are Doing Anything Wrong." No, that is not how Jesus acted on this earth. He did not look the other way when people committed or promoted vile acts. He came to cleanse us from our sin, not to excuse it. Sin is destructive. Why should we stand by and allow the culture around us to be destroyed when we can do something to preserve it? We are supposed to be salt.
That's not to deny the points that Greg did make in this video. He is correct that we should start with our own sins (which he is correct about), and take out the beams in our own eyes before trying to take the speck out of our neighbors' eyes.
I do agree with a lot of things Greg says here. And he is right about not judging those outside the church. But that means it IS our job to judge those INSIDE the church. But judging does not mean being self-righteous and condemning. It means lovingly confronting about sin, with the goal of love. Love protects (sin is deadly). Love does not rejoice in evil but delights in the truth.
Good presentation, I agree we are to love and encourage all to walk the way of Christ and fulfillment of the law, but Greg skipped over Jesus' emphatic command to sin no more. We need to encourage everyone to live a life that reflects the will of the Father, as Jesus did and encouraged
God created marriage as what is known theologically as a "divine institution" - available to believers and unbelievers alike. His definition includes that it a relationship between a man and a woman. If we try to "fudge" the definition of something set up by God, trouble is unavoidable. Since gays technically cannot marry each other, why don't they come up with their own equivalent? I'm sure they would have no trouble legalizing it.
Come on, Greg. You compared Christians who want to "call out sin" to "The Taliban". ...a group that blows themselves up and cuts off peoples heads with a knife. That argument is absurd at best. I love your sermons. I am surprised and stunned by this statement. .coming from you. Your logic and path of thought has always been impeccable. Seems to me. ..that you were willing to call Christians terrorists in an attempt to love gay people. That is really messed up
Wow, a Greg Boyd teaching that doesn't have comments blocked. Bold.
Let's see if it pays off
The Reverend Boyd seems like a spirit filled Christian. I enjoy his passion, I enjoy watching him get excited about Jesus and I confess I am envious ( I know its a sin) of how excited and alive he feels in Christ. However ; this is one issue I could not walk away from. First let me say, my name is Greg and I was an alduterer and a fornicator. I am neither proud of what I was nor do I run away from it. I've never shared my story with anyone but it truly is a story of God's redeeming grace and how he never leaves you and never stops calling for you, even when you have completely forgotten about him. My problem with this video has a few points i would like to make. As I watched I noticed Rev Boyd put his head down and ever so slightly half speak and gloss over the church's position on gay marriage ( which I agree with) then lift his head and proceed to boldly and loudly proclaim that all sin was wrong and his church just wanted to love everyone .On the surface who can argue with that message but I have to. I said I was a sinner earlier because even then I knew what I was doing was wrong, I never tried to excuse it or looked for acceptance for it. Thankfully God rescued me from that lifestyle. My second issue is this, what does this church plan to do with the homosexuals it lovingly plans to attract because here is my experience. They are not looking for your love, they want your acceptance of their lifestyle. Far too many homosexuals do not accept that what they do is sin and anything you tell them will never register unless you first tell them that it is ok to do what they do. I saw Rev Boyd say it is a sin, but is he willing to tell them that. Is this church willing to draw a line in the sand and say, we love you, we welcome you, but we assume you are here from heart felt repentance and we want to help you leave that life behind you. Anything less than that and you are not truly loving them, you are enabling them.
Fantastically put! Couldn't agree more!
"Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light." (Ephesians 5:11-13)
And when you do that, they (homosexual practitioners) will invariably get defensive and leave the church or if they ARE truly convicted, will repent and remain in the church and will try to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Jeremian Lastly I was particularly offended by your comment. You may not agree with what has been written, but to say that kind of stuff about my (our) God, especially when it is designed to anger me (us), is not only uncalled for because it is blasphemous in nature for us, and it certainly will not win us over to try to empathise with you. It invariably will have the opposite effect. It is that kind of language which perpetuates an escalation of retaliatory vehemence and abusive language. I will not hold that against you, because I understand that you are merely reacting to an unwarranted feeling of rejection. We do not reject you or hate you. It is actually the opposite. We want the best for you. The problem is that you do not see the world as we do. medium.com/@robertoberuffi/the-culture-war-2cbf83fb7b1#.hbfebbgvv
I agree, Greg. I don't see in the Bible that it is a sin to judge. I only see that Jesus warned, judge not lest you be judged. Judgment must begin within the house of God. Look at the Bible, OT and NT, and you will see that godly men pointed out the sins of their neighbors, in order to try to get them to face their sin and forsake it. James said that whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way saves a soul from death. That is loving your neighbor. Help them to forsake their sin, even if they persecute you for it.
Jeremian Lastly you are still my brother. I would do alibi could to help you with the hate in your heart
unsafegreg I find it very interesting that I watched a video from this very same preacher last night on how Romans 10 salvation will not save. He stated that it preaches a head knowledge of Jesus and does not require a heart change. I believe the example he gives is that it is akin to a legal contract where I say this and believe in my head (which is grossly misunderstood by him) and I have a free ticket to do whatever I want. He said without works (fruit) and a turning away from those sinful pursuits that it basically was not true salvation.
So I find it funny that now he is saying the exact opposite when it comes to the subject of homosexuality. Now it's OK because God may be working on something else in their life rather than what the Bible calls an abomination. You're serving two masters and are lukewarm and will be spit out.
All I know is I got sick of projecting hate. I want to draw to people TO Christ; not repel them away. Then, I'll let God convict people of their sins whatever they may be, and stay out of his way.
Amen!!
+Regen Ducere Preach it brother
+Christopher Michels "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil" (Proverbs)
One of the way he convicts people of sin is through the body (church). You're just taking the easy path because you personally feel uncomfortable with confrontation. There are ways to confront without "projecting hate" (this is a vague /meaningless term unless you're using a projector)
@@Mateo-et3wl Extremely well put
Disaster! False teaching! Yes we should not judge those outside the Church but must not tolerate constant sin inside! Be discerning, brothers and sisters!
Like I said Greg is smarter than me by a country mile...but it just seems he is validating their identity as being "Gay". I know he wants to be sensitive to people who struggle with various sins but at some point you do have to call it sin and as such not something to be proud of as in an identity...rather than something to be dealt with like any other sin.
I don’t see Jesus calling it a sin in the Bible. Can you show me the verses where Jesus talks about homosexuality?
@@alexanderfloyd5099 Jesus talked about the distinctual nature of the creation of the sexes and how they were female was made for the male to be joined together
If people want to."pervert" ie twist God's intention for the sexes... this perversion stems from Satsnic influence to twist and rebel against God's design. The desire if Satan is to get God's crestion- humanity Made in Gods image ...to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what God intended. Satan howls with laughter when mankind rebelelliously degrades their minds and bodies.
@@TIMtalksLIVE
1. Congratulations. Even if being gay is a sin, you still managed to completely miss the point of the video. You seem to be presenting yourself as the exact kind of person that he was speaking to, and you missed it. That's very impressive.
2. About the whole "gay is a sin" thing, well, maybe not. There's a legitimate case to be made that it's not inherently a sin according to Scripture. As with straight sex, it can be misused.
3. Jesus brought up the creation account in reference to a question about marriage. There was no such thing as gay marriage in that society. At that time, marriage was a legal contract between a man and his property, and often very young property at that. Do you really think Jesus endorsed that too, or did He just address the society that He was in?
WOW! THAT WAS SO GOOD!!! Why isn't this sermon preached more in America??? This is the true gospel! Pure and Untainted!
disgusting!.................it is if one is doing the same thing we cant judge! you will be thrown into the dump with them!................... CRAZY!...........THEY HAVE TO STOP WHAT THEY ARE DOING..............abomination!
The point he begins to make at 4:10 "Why does the church make Homosexuality a greater sin than others in the bible that are mentioned more?" Answer: The other sins, in general, do not have public, powerful, wealthy groups decrying that they are not sins and it is "normal". Would the church or Christians push back any less if groups tried to say that theft or sex outside of marriage was not a sin and normal? I don't think so.
It's abomination probably all of them not
Why do you think those groups are coming out to challenge the Church? Maybe because the Church started it with its historic horrible treatment of homosexual people. We have to change that narrative of hate for certain sinners while ignoring others.
ITS AN ABOMINATION.......DO YOUR HOMEWORK PASTOR !!!!!!!!
And the devil sits back and laughs. The fact that you say there are openly gay people in your congregation and you won't tell them the truth. Hell is real and these people need to know the truth. Tickling there ears just to grow your congregation does No one any good. Eternity is serious business. God's word never changes. Do your flock a favor and tell them the truth.
Wow awesome I really love the that
Pont well put Tom. Is it loving to condone a gay lifestyle in the body? Greg is an intelligent person, so why all the logical fallacies in this sermon? Is he mistaken or is there another reason?
Why did he only quote 1/2 of verse 13 in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13? Oh I see, because the first half says that God will judge those outside the church and his point is that we should not judge anyone. Ok... but what about the rest of 13 which says "Put away from you (the church) the evil person"? He left that out because it goes against his anything is ok Christianity racket.
This is the same exact thing Satan does when he uses scripture to make his "point".
So, as a sinner yourself, are you not evil? If so, shouldn't we, as the Church, "put away" you? The approach you seem to be taking is one that says Christians should not love sinners. I'm sure you don't believe that, so what exactly do you think his message said that doesn't align with the last half of vs 13?
poor people who are following this guy... when Jesus returns Hes coming with a Sword... nahhh, Jesus is gonna come hang out!! lol.. Repent (turn from your sins) for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... wake up!!!! true love will warn ...but be gracious when u do it...
I agree only some parts like having patience, love, and respect for the LGBT people, as a Christian we are called to respect and love everyone regardless who they are and if they deserve it, for the simple reason that every human was made in the image of God. You all have a precious value in Gods eyes.
What I don't agree is that he tries to justify homosexuality marriage amendment by saying that we shouldn't have a care about what politically goes around. The Bible is filled with political dilemmas but Christians stay faithful and true to what they believe and won't give in.
Every person is different but don't try to justify any sin only cause you have a specific group of sinners going to your church.
I'm sure he ment it in a good way maybe he was even upset but don't make it sound like us Christians don't have a duty to do. We are told time and time again in the Bible to judge righteously, know them by their fruit, discernment of spirits... etc. But never by sight alone.
Their sin is out in the air everyone can see it even children. Every sin is the same in Gods eyes cause it separates us from him, but when you know the truth don't try to stop it from spreading or Jesus death and resurrection would have been in vain as apostle Paul says.
God bless, I pray for the people of the LGBT group for them to come into repentance. I love you guys, I am straight and I had my struggles coming to Jesus's feet and accepting the truth, but I am here and all that is left to say is that I hope I make it all the way to the end. Don't give up, let the Lord Jesus into your hearts whoever you are wherever you are, he will change you from the inside out ❤
I didn't get to since he was justify sin, he's just saying, don't be hypocritical and judge-mental .
@@fantasybouthour6679 I like where you put that hyphen! lol
great spirit in this man of love and none condemning for who is to condemn it is Christ that died we should help others and trust in Jesus remember Our Lord died on the cross we didn't.
I attended Woodland Hills met my wife there 8 years ago. I also went on 2 Mission trips with attendees and others while there. I like Greg and his ministry. I have never been under someones teaching who can both enlighten adn infuriate me simultananeously to the degree Greg can. I know he is genius level and i respect his diligence.
I was at this service. I was skeptical then. As time passed, I am less so. But my only fear then has absolutely come to fruition. The gay lifestyle and marriage are not something that concerns me at my core. What I feared was what it would usher in, what follows it through the door. Today, 10 years after, our society is permitting children to mutilate their bodies and poison themselves because they "feel" they are the wrong gender! These are children - people who are not mature adults - and they are cutting off their breasts or their genitals and the adults are letting them, in fact are performing the surgeries. These adults are acting self-righteous as if this naturally should be affirmed, while they take the money to the bank. It is sick, deluded and evil.
That my friends is what I feared back then. If you are offended by what I said well then God Bless You - you need to study your own heart and remember that these are immature children, unable to make such profound decisions. You are the adult.
he went to some sort of gay movement event, and he said it FELT RIGHT to him? is that how we judge truth by how it feels? we are sinfull people living in a sinfull dead body, a body of flesh that wants!! to sin. And we are to judge truth by how we feel? he could not be more wrong!!!!, we are to judge truth, not by how we feel, but by THE WORD OF GOD!!!
didn't he write a whole book about Christians not getting involved in politics? Of course, if it blends with his political views its fair ground.
jesus ministered to sinner's so as to convince them why they should turnaway from sin. not to make them feel comfortable in their sin
Yes. He MINISTERED to them. He did not reject them. That was and is Greg Boyds point. Love them without confirming their (or our!) sin.
And Greg’s point he has brought up again and again is that politics are not the Christian’s tool to ”stop” people from sinning. That was the pharisees and saducees tool.
Revisited this sermon, I agreed with this sermon back then, but a few thoughts emerged as time goes by, Dear Dr Greg, looking at the world today be it LGBTQ or Islam or Atheism or One world religion, understand that, those people professing those ideas aren't just harmlessly keeping it to themselves, in fact, they are slowly forcing their ideas upon everybody, look at the trend of what are taught in mainstream schools, gender fluidity, Islam being the cradle of civilizations technologies (upfront lie), syariah education, distorted history about palestine, evolution with antitheistic agenda ..etc. I get your point of being all accepting, all inclusive, and non condemning attitude towards unbelievers, but at the same time God did call us to strive to be holy (with the help of holy spirit of course), just like how God called Israel to be a Holy nation, there should be a line of separation when circumstances arise, what is the definition of Holiness again? Luke 8:16 - No one light a lamp and hides it in a jar or under a bed, instead they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. I know we are not perfect, I am not perfect, we are in no position to judge other people of their sin, but there is a huge difference between being judgmental and being vocal and stand up for the virtues of God and His kingdom, that is how light shines. Just my thought, being silent and ambigous in clear cut issues will be perceived by people as condoning. Why did people kill Jesus, apostles and countless saints throughout the ages if they are so meek? it is because they at the same time oppose openly the agendas being forced upon the believers. We should love gays but speak out against homosexualism, we should love muslims but vocally oppose Islam, we should befriend antitheist and exchange views but we have to insist God created the world, don't condemn pregnant teens but at the same time we need to stop them from terminating their pregnancy willfully. In another words I now support the lady who wrote the strong worded letters to you, perhaps she didnt phrase it the way I do, but I believe what I think now is what she mean. Sorry sir, I am truly sorry that I cannot agree with this sermon no more.
No the answer is not a theocracy .
Listen to the last of this sermon. Do not fear. Jesus is greater. Christianity, true Biblical Christianity, is growing like never before (despite how it looks in the media).
It's funny how many people in the comments are claiming heresy and completely making his point about christians ranting and raving about one kind of sin and ignoring ones that are far more damaging to the world & that are accepted quite readily in the church itself.
Some people say, some people show.
No sin is more damaging to society than allowing a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman. That would totally destroy everyone on earth is two generations! And real Christians do not accept ANY sins readily but stand up against ALL sin, especially their own. So unless you are willing to stand up and be a REAL Christian yourself and fight against sin,especially your own, then you have absolutely no legitimate say so in the matter!
Regen Ducere I think you've taken the slippery slope fallacy a bit far there.
Regen Ducere So you're saying two people expressing their love for each other is a greater sin than the greed that forces vast swathes of humanity to live in poverty, or the hatred that drives people to murder others simply because they don't agree with their race or religion? Way to miss the point.
As a woman who was gay for 30 of her 53 years, this man is lying to you. He is DANGEROUS! The church is for believers, not sinners! We are to go out and make disciples, not bring them in to leaven the whole batch with sin! I cannot allow my ears to be tickled with this nonsense. Jesus died for my sins, and He, as my Savior, has given me a new heart and spirit. My spirit wants NOTHING to do with sin, of ANY kind. Do I make mistakes, of course, but I do not consciously disobey!!!!! So when I hear people like this, who is a wolf in sheep's clothing, I shudder at how many he has misled. Tell me where in the Bible it mentions major or minor sins? The Bible doesn't say major and minor...that is man trying to justify sin. That is this man playing word games with you, because the god he serves likes to play these deceitful games. Ask Eve about the game he played with her! Born Again is not living in your sin. He has no idea what leads to a reprobate mind, because he he is lost, leading the lost, to the edge of a cliff. Romans 1:26-32 EXPRESSLY STATES HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE SIN THAT CAUSES A REPROBATE MIND. In other words, the sin that leads to other sins such as murder! Please, wake up!!!! Find a Bible believer pastor like Charles Lawson or Robert Breaker and submit fully to the will of God!
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
There is a mistake here in Boyd's equivocation with accusation and condemnation. Jesus and His apostles make judgments and call others to make right judgments within the church. However, we are not called to condemn. Knowing the difference between the two is the answer to healthy ministry.
You’re not condemning Greg are you?
Jesus attracted sinners BUT those people DIDN'T CONTINUE to live a sinful life after meeting Him. I don't see sinners in the Bible that continued a sinful life and at the same time staying in Jesus' presence.
As people didn't like the Light 💡 when it came in the world because they didn't want their sinful deeds to be seen.
The only people that stayed with deep love in the presence of Jesus [ the 💡 of the World ] were sinners that repented of their sins and stopped doing them.
If a sinner feels good in a church while leading a sinful life and if that persons feels comfortable with their sin, then that church "misses Gods target".
As it's being said in Psalm 1, that sinners shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous.
Benjamin Ros very true
Benjamin Ros what about the prostitutes and thieves that he hung out with,, they're described as prostitutes and thieves not ex- prostitutes and thieves
Angel Lewis well you still have to acknowledge your sins and turn away from them. Jesus walked with sinners. But to save them from the grips of sin [I came to call sinners to repentance] and in no way to encourage the sin.
Benjamin Ros quite right. which seems to be exactly what Boyd is advocating here. love is first. not judging or dwelling on the sins of others is a fundamental part of that.
You show me where Boyd called a sinner to repentance here?
I agree that as believers there is NO need for us to go out of our way to point out the sins of the world (esp. non-believers), however if and when we get asked by the world about their sinful lifestyle, then we need to with both conviction and humility point out what the Scripture says on this subject while speaking of the solution for ALL our sin and brokenness which is the cross of Jesus! There is definitely a difference between going out of our way to tell others about their sin and being asked and sharing the truth in love while NEVER, EVER leaving out the hope that Christ offers.
Just because there are sins in the Bible that are given less attention doesn't mean they are any less important. Not recognizing sin for what it is is a societal mistake. So to say we ignore some sins so that makes this sin right is dangerous territory. Eventually we won't think anything is a sin anymore and humanity will fail.
I don't know a graceful way to say "this is rubbish."
Matthew 15 :14, 1 Corinthians 2 :15, Jude : v.4.
May God grant them repentance. God bless.
We can believe in Jesus power to set us free from what He calls sin...we don't have to and cannot persist in rebellion if we're going to call Jesus Lord. Jesus asked, "Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?" He also said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven...only those who do the will of my Father will enter."
God / Jesus calls us all to repentance. No one should expect to enjoy church attendance or experience Gods peace, love or joy of salvation if they’re continuing to sin unrepentantly. Consider what Jesus himself said in Mathew’s gospel, chapter 11...
“Then began he (Jesus) to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:”
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Matthew 11:20 KJV
www.bible.com/1/mat.11.20.kjv
This sadly confused person (Boyd) needs to read Matthew 11... and listen to Jesus abraid cities which failed to REPENT.
My only problem is when sin (any sin) gets declassified as such, we are going down the wrong path.
He very clearly said homosexuality was a sin.
You are twisting scripture to fit your narrative or the cultures narrative. You can profess God's truth in love and still stand by the Bible. Please share this also with the female pastor. If you are born again, ,you desire to be in line with God's word. Of course women will desire to pastor, of course women will desire to lead men, that is how we are wired. But God commands obedience and if we love him, we will keep his commandments. If we justify our sins, then we are not saved/born again. I know - I was experiencing the intellectual and emotional experience of Christianity, but never repented to God for my sins. ONce I saw how sinfully sinful my sin was - against a HOLY, All consuming, All mighty God who was storing up wrath, I fell to my knees and ask God to forgive me of my foolishness. I deserved wrath, I deserved hell and Jesus saved me. God gave me new desires - now I feel it automatically when I'm outside God's will, and I repent and walk in his word. Please stay close in God's word daily so you know his nature and his commands.
Jesus chose Paul to be an apostle for the church, Paul is quite clear on sexual sin and how wilful sinners should be admonished and if no repentance should be forbidden fellowship with the brethren to avoid the leven levening the whole lump. Jesus came to fulfil the law, just because many churches are morally weak weak with many of its congregations doesnt mean thats a model to just accept. If the churches do not hold up a standard to aim for then the church will dissolve into an amoral mess. Jesus said to the cripple ....sin no more.
All unrighteousness is sin true. but don't use that to confuse the issue, compromise, water down or appease Gay people. speak the truth to them in love. (Repent and believe to Gospel.) Christ Died for even Gay people! But once you have given your heart to him by faith and repentance you must now renounce and reject the Gay lifestyle/marriage. You cannot serve Christ and continue in sin. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound god forbide. If you really want life eternal and to please God, you can no longer live as a Gay man or woman married or not. Christ love's you and want's you to live. But in Holiness not unrighteousness or sin. The choice is yours choose life and make heaven you home.
Mike Honaker This message says exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Greg's stand against mixing Christianity and politics lost his church a whole bunch of people. Everything he does calls down new wrath from the American religious elites. He's not scratching itching ears, he's speaking truth as he sees the scripture tell it and drawing the ire of the pharisees. This is not new.
You are not being contextual with the words of Jesus when you speak of the passage about seeing a speck in your brother's eye - and here lies a great portion of your error -
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In another speech you made against the sovereignty of God - you made big issue on considering the context - then you went on to contradict yourself when speaking of the potter and the clay and tried to directly compare humans with God by stating that the potter in Jerimiah 18 forms the clay and does so as responding to the clay as if it has a mind of its own and you stated that God had no choice but to respond to the clay's own determination - WHAT HERESY ! -
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In this case of seeing the speck in your brother's eye - you ignore the context and all the passages of the bible that command us to bring sinful practices out in the open and rebuke our brother and you wrongly assert that we have no good reason to mention any sin we see because Jesus asked the question - why do you see the sin in others when you do not notice your own sin ? - NOW COMES THE CONTEXT
[ Luk 6:42 (ESV)
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
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The context clearly emphasizes that Jesus is not telling you to ignore other scriptures about bring sin to light and rebuking your brothers - He is talking about hypocrites who do not recognize their own inability to conquer their evil ways - but they think they are righteous enough to help conquer the evil in someone else
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The truth of these verses is magnifying the truth of God's sovereignty by showing us that - in the same way that we cannot conquer sin in our own life - we cannot do it for our brothers
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Can a leaper change his spots ? No - and a sinful man cannot stop sinning - ONLY the spirit of God can restrain sin -
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So when we finally realize that we cannot lean on our own understanding and power to overcome sin in our own life and we realize that ONLY the grace and power of God is responsible for every good thing - including the restraint of evil in our own life - then we understand what Jesus is saying
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If you understand that only God can take the sin out of your life - then you understand that only God alone can take the sin out of your brother's life
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However if you don't understand that - and you wrongly think that you can remove the sin from your own life - then you are a hypocrite and you wrongly think that you can point to the sin of your brother and tell him that you know how to help him get the sin out of his life -
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that is the fallacy of free will thinking - it is human centered
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God made Adam perfect and when Adam sinned - every person from him except Jesus was a lump of clay that had their own corrupted mind against God - no difference between one lump or the other - there were not some lumps better than others - they all have gone out of the way because there is none that seeks God
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God could be perfectly just and let every singe one of us continue in corruption on our way to hell - just like before the flood everyone killing each other etc . - and God would not be responsible for any of their sin .
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can a bitter spring bring forth sweet water ? can a leopard change his spots ?
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no and a corrupt lump of clay cannot have a good thought or understanding of anything good because goodness is spiritual and the natural mind cannot understand anything spiritual - so no one has ears to hear or eyes to see because they are dead in trespasses and sin
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no one would ever hear or see the truth UNLESS God acted first - to take the corrupt lump of clay and CHANGE it
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Romans 9
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remember don't just look at a verse or two and then make a big humanistic speech about it thinking you know what the bible teaches when you ignore the greater context
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also - don't twist the context to what you want it to be and contradict yourself and teach heresy by saying God has to mold the clay the way the clay wants to be molded
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you read romans 9 then you claimed it was a lie
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you rightly stated that you don't worship a God as defined in romans 9 - because you don't want God to tell you what to do - you want your own god that has no choice but deal with you according to your own inclinations
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such is the fallacy of human centered religion - free will
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the only true religion is God centered and it specifies that everything good comes from God and God does everything good - God shows His power and His glory by everything He ordains to come to pass
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you spoke about how you could not imagine to give God glory if anything bad happened to your children
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have you considered what God ordained to happen to His Son ?
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if God can bring the greatest glory to Himself by ordaining the the death of His Son at the hands and by the actions of dirty rotten lumps of clay - He can bring glory to Himself by anything and everything that He ordains to come to pass
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that is the full context of the bible
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read it again
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We are all sinners but the difference between a saint and a sinner is we get up again 🫣
Really? You are either a saint or a sinner… because they are 2 opposite ends of the spectrum,
There is a good amount of truth here; however, Boyd ignores several verses that deal with sinning believers:
"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame." 2 Thes.3:14
"Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning." 1 Tim. 5:20
"Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted." Galatians 6:1
"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:3
“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17
It seems like the post-modern church (much like the post-modern world it resides in) likes to take the easy way out, either wantonly castigating "sinners" or engaging in the cult of "do not judge!" Perhaps the church should teach people not only how to repent of their own sins, but how to help lead others to repentance (in humility and gentleness). The great problem with this is that it takes time to teach it, and it takes time to engage in the process, and we find ourselves in a time and place where shortcuts in all things are preferred.
"Having this humble attitude always attracts sinners of all sorts." -- That's almost true. The only sinners that kind of "humble" attitudes doesn't attracts are those who are truly saved by God, those who love being corrected, reproved, and even disciplined by God, those who love the truth and hate the sin, and those who are in this world but don't appeal to this world and don't mix with this world and don't belong to this world. These people, sir, you can never attract with your false teaching and fake humble attitude. Stop that, and start repenting.
+haiyingz Wow...have you even checked out Dr. Boyd before disparaging him? How do you know is humility is fake? Bearing false witness is something that I don't believe is congruent with following Jesus.
Kevin Thomas Do you understand this: Humility towards men but not to God's Word (and therefore to God) is the greatest arrogance? I wish you did, but apparently you don't.
"those who are truly saved by God, those who love being corrected, reproved, and even disciplined by God, those who love the truth and hate the sin, and those who are in this world but don't appeal to this world and don't mix with this world and don't belong to this world"
Those who meet that definition are the 99 sheep the shepard left in search of the lost one. Those are the healthy that the doctor didn't come for. Those are not the ones who surrounded Jesus. Or do you think anyone who would meet those standarts BEFORE meeting Jesus would still have been a prostitute or tax collector?
All it took for people to be welcomed by Jesus with open arms was one simple thing: The recognition that they needed redemtion. That is ALL you need to come.
And it is those that feel that need that you want to attract, regardless of what state they are in, regardless of how lost they are, regardless of how deep they are entangled in sin. THOSE are the lost sheep, those are the sick, those are the sinners Jesus came to call.
That is ALL you need to come? Then why in James does it say Faith without works is dead....... Dead meaning you have (dead faith)
Jesus said if you are not born again you will not see the kingdom of God. You need more than just a recognition of redemption.
Regeneration = Justification = Sanctification
+Daniel Gilbert
Works are the result of salvation, not it's cause.
What I was talking about what it takes to come to Jesus. Not about what it takes to follow him. As someone once put it, "Salvation costs nothing, discipleship costs everything".
But it is impossible to be a disciple if you didn't recieve salvation first.
And there is no condition to recieve salvation other than the recognition that you need it. Your deeds will verify wether you truly recieved salvation or not (which is how I understand the passage in James that you reference), but they are not the condition.
Just look at the man who was crucified next to Jesus; He was given entry to paradise on one thing alone: He begged Jesus to remember him once he ruled in heaven. He had no deeds to show for, he was a criminal, deservant of death by his own admission. Yet his faith was real nontheless. So James can't be talking about what it takes to recieve salvation, but about what defines living faith after recieving salvation.
We are talking about those that aren't christians yet in this context, not about those who claim they are and are living in sin (that's a different topic). And for those that don't know Jesus yet (the group that a church should want to attract, since we are supposed to be the light of the world), recognition of the need for redemption is all it takes.
Jesus said, "Go and sin no more" when He was led to by Father God. He did not tell everyone to repent all the time. He only did what He saw the Father doing. Eventually, people will come to the point where they are willing to do God's will, if they are saved. For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. He may use us to confront sin, like Nathan, but let's be led by the Holy Spirit and be HUMBLE when confronting sin in a believer - not self righteous.
That verse is of questionable historicity. You ought to base your case on a more solid foundation.
Solomon, do you believe the Bible to be inspired of God? I just need to know where you are coming from. Either way, I still think that confrontation of another brother or sisters sin needs to be done in humility and gentleness - not in self righteousness or thinking you are better than that person.
Sarah Vogel
My convictions on the inspiration of the Bible are irrelevant. If we are to trust the words, they must be trustworthy. Words that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts are not AS trustworthy.
Solomon Parker Yet, they reflect God's character perfectly in this case, I believe. Jesus does tell the woman caught in adultery to sin no more. Yet, he does this only after she is sure of his love for her. Jesus stands against those who wish to condemn her and execute her, which according to the law is what she deserves. Yet, Jesus is merciful and does not condemn her. Jesus does not condemn her sin! That is the gospel if ever I heard it. After saving her life, Jesus sanctifies her, not before.
True, that your convictions of the inspiration of the Bible are irrelevant, but that is not to say that whether the Bible is or is not the inspired word of God is irrelevant. It is relevant.
suckyskiz
I would tend to agree, but my faith is in Jesus, not the nature of the inspiration of scripture. So I'm not going to bank my theology on verses that may have been added later. That comes from a modern western post-enlightenment mindset the writers of the Bible certainly had no knowledge of.
"Judging always drives them away." Is that why Peter said that Israel killed Jesus and had to repent, lest they be destroyed by God in Acts 2 and 3? Is that why Paul said the Athenians had false gods and will be judged by God unless they repent? Is that why Jesus told sinners to sin no more? Isn't that judging? This fluffball Christianity has nothing to do with the New Testament.
So sin is greater than any other. All sin is sin.
Jesus says if we love him we will keep his commandments. That means All sin must stop. When we become New in Christ we go and sin no more. We Repent, we confess our sins to G-d and go and sin no more.
Yes we will stumble and fall, but being Christians Jesus will catch us and set us back on the right path.
So even the homosexual can come to Jesus, repent and be saved. But they can't continue in a homosexual relationship. If they can't become attracted to the opposite sex, then they should abstain from Sex altogether. In Scripture, "Take up thy Cross and Follow me." --- Whatever your Cross to carry, Carry it with prayer for help daily and Sin No More.
Do not judge those that stumble. We as Christians are suppose to help each other in our struggles to let go of sinful ways.
This guy made a lot of good points. I agree that many Christians elevate the sin of homosexuality above other sins that they then let slide. Abortion and adultery are two good examples. For we see pastors supporting divorce and remarriage, which is adultery according to Jesus.
I see a problem though in down playing the fact that homosexuality is called an abomination in scripture.
He also tries to give the impression that Jesus repeatedly went back to and spent time with great sinners. But this is not the case. For we are never told that Jesus went back to and spent time with people who refused to change after he gave them his original message.
So while it is true that Jesus spent time with sinners, it was so that they could hear a message that they would never hear from the Pharisees. But there is not a single verse that says Jesus went back to them or let them join his ministry if they did not repent and turn from their wicked ways.
He also ignores the passages that say we are to judge righteously and to kick people out of the church if they continue to live in sin.
Jesus attracted sinners who repented and changed their ways.
Did Levi remain a tax collector?
so let me make this perfectly clear.
Corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes who wanted to remain as such and who wanted to continue sinning did NOT "hang out" with Jesus.
It's true that Jesus met them and invited them to walk the narrow and difficult path that leads to the kingdom of God. But he did NOT "hang out" with them if they chose not to repent and change their ways for the same reason that he did not hang out with Pharisees who refused to repent.
Bragging about the number of unrepentant gays in his church is not a good sign.
TrustinJC I see what you're saying. Years ago I would have said the same and thought I was being reasonable. But for me, if I still thought this way, I know I wouldn't be loving. I'd just be intellectually right in my mind. That said, and I mean no disrespect, I think Greg's point is more about judging against homosexuality and homosexuals while the church is full of sinful people who have "christianized" their sin. Gluttony? Pride? We have unrepentant Gays in my church. Neither our pastor nor Greg Boyd tell them it's just cool, or okay. But we treat them with love hoping they will see the light. And while, yes, we can kick people out of the church, Paul also said just after, that we can forgive them also. It's not a command. And doesn't love "keep no record of wrong"? Today's culture is vastly different than ancient ones and if we've found new ways to work with others in love, I fail to see the problem. Either way, a quick study on the word "abomination", shows that the English word is much more severe in it's meaning than any of the Hebrew, Latin or Greek counterparts. Not saying it isn't a sin, but it isn't necessarily held up as worse, or somehow more hideous than eating shellfish, stealing, or any number of other sins. It isn't more reprehensible than murder, and yet prison ministries are all the rage while ministering to homosexuals is still seen as somehow bad, especially if they don't immediately repent.
An abomination? It's interesting that we all point to that word and that verse in context of homosexuality. Jesus' strongest language about sin came in Matthew 5:21-26 when he says that when his followers label another a "fool" that they are in danger of "the fire of hell." Or, in Matthew 18, Jesus declares that those who cause children to stumble (I think that there's a good case Jesus is talking about pedophilia here) would be better off if they drowned themselves in water.
As a woman who was gay for 30 of her 53 years, this man is lying to you. He is DANGEROUS! The church is for believers, not sinners! We are to go out and make disciples, not bring them in to leaven the whole batch with sin! I cannot allow my ears to be tickled with this nonsense. Jesus died for my sins, and He, as my Savior, has given me a new heart and spirit. My spirit wants NOTHING to do with sin, of ANY kind. Do I make mistakes, of course, but I do not consciously disobey!!!!! So when I hear people like this, who is a wolf in sheep's clothing, I shudder at how many he has misled. Tell me where in the Bible it mentions major or minor sins? The Bible doesn't say major and minor...that is man trying to justify sin. That is this man playing word games with you, because the god he serves likes to play these deceitful games. Ask Eve about the game he played with her! Born Again is not living in your sin. He has no idea what leads to a reprobate mind, because he he is lost, leading the lost, to the edge of a cliff. Romans 1:26-32 EXPRESSLY STATES HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE SIN THAT CAUSES A REPROBATE MIND. In other words, the sin that leads to other sins such as murder! Please, wake up!!!! Find a Bible believer pastor like Charles Lawson or Robert Breaker and submit fully to the will of God!
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
That was one of the Best Sermons Greg Boyd has ever given! He nailed those truths to The Cross Baby!!! "Homophobic verse clustering" is a childish and satanic strategy designed to exclude some from the Love and Grace of our Lord. 3-5% of any population at any time in history, has always been "Gay". It's part of the diversity of Homo sapiens. Voting "for" or "against" such things is a total waste of time in The Kingdom. Leave Gay
people alone and get on with serving Jesus and doing his will!
So this is where Bethel gets its heretical theology. BGC needs to kick this guy out before he spews more heresy than he already had.
lukewarm.
Listening to you preach makes my heart heavy. Because you come so close--I almost want to jump up and down and cheer.
I want to stand up and clap when you say if we're going to start making laws against homosexuals, you'd rather throw people in prison for being too rich, for being too greedy, for having so much and not caring for the poor.
I'm happy you encouraged your people not to be over-concerned about how the vote goes. But your message is so damaging, so destructive...I'd almost rather you told them to vote against marriage. I'd almost prefer a fire-and-brimstone anti-LGBT sermon than this. I'd almost prefer open opposition than this kind of subtle, pernicious hatred that masquerades as love.
I'd almost prefer you to run at me swinging a sword than to approach me with a smile on your face, with a hidden knife you plan to sink into the very core of my identity as soon as you've convinced me you're my friend.
Because I hear what you're saying. Homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, you say. We should work on the sin of idolotry, the sin of being judgemental, the sin of selfishness and callousness and greed just as much as we worry about the sin of homosexuality. But you are STILL calling homosexuality a sin. You are naming the way someone IS and calling it just as bad as being a liar or a thief or greedy.
You are saying that if someone falls in love with someone else, that love is a problem to be solved, just like excess eating would be a problem to be solved.
I am a heterosexual man. I don't know if that's the most important thing about me, but it is indeed a part of who I am. If you were to tell me I can't be heterosexual...if you were to tell me the love I feel for a woman is akin to stealing...if you were to insist I not only can't get married, but I must never seek romance again...you would be launching an attack against who I am as a human being.
And if you made me think you were my friend first? If you invited me into your church, if you accepted me, if you loved me, if you got me to let my guard down and listened to my hopes and dreams and fears, if you became an important part of my life and made yourself my support group--and then turned against my very nature? Well. No thank you. I'd rather you just wave a sign in my face and hate me than this false love.
If Greg Boyd is reading this: when you say that Jesus wouldn't make the sins of the tax collector illegal, are you implying that financial fraud should be legal (since that was what the tax collectors did)?
I would be curious on your logic for this, whether you say yes or no.
I don't get it, are they affirming their homosexuality or in the process of delivering them from this lifestyle?
I think Pastor Greg would have been well advised to look at Jesus dealing with the woman at the well and how He pointed to her sin and loved her enough to invite her to life change...Jesus didn't just "Love em and shut-up..."
2 Peter 3:9 is clear that God in His love does not want that anyone should perish but all must come to repentance.. God is good and reaching His hands towards sinners to come to the knowledge of truth of the gospel and be saved. However, God also requires that we be holy as He is holy. True relationship manifest honesty and trust. God is willing to turnaround things that we may become the children that belongs to Him. God through His Spirit convicts is of sin that we may repent and walk according to His will. In love, we may admonish homosexual of the severity of sin of getting into sexual relation with same sex and with this God is still reaching out to them that they may come into repentance and be saved. Total submission is necessary in order to be accepted by God. He will help homosexuals to understand the severity of their situation and will reach out a loving hand to save them as they repent and put their faith in the risen Christ.
So, Greg Boyd will not preach on political issues? Doesn't think political issues deserve an entire sermon? So, he doesn't believe in preaching the entire counsel of Scripture? The issue IS NOT that everyone sins or that homosexuality is a worse sin than lust or adultery. The issue is about whether certain sinful lifestyles will be promoted by public policy. The Church is supposed to be the salt and light of the culture and to stand in the gap when the culture dashes headlong into the abyss. Instead of showing the culture what is righteous, Boyd opts for conflating the promotion of righteous public policies with judging people. I would not sit under his leadership.
The Bible mentions homosexuality a total of 5 times. It mentions Greed and poverty a total of 2-3000 times. To quote Rev William Barber it's amazing to me how Christians spend so much energy on what the Bible says so little of and so little energy on what the Bible says so much about. Furthermore Jesus says "I have not come to all respectable people but the outcast" and said to the teachers of the law "Go learn what it means I demand mercy and not sacrifice"(Matthew 9:13). Many people in the Church show such little mercy and only malice, hatred, vitriol and vindictiveness to those in the gay community.
JANHOI MCCALLUM Not true. Christians don't hate the gay community. There is a difference between hating someone and saying that their lifestyle is immoral.
Melchizedek was mentioned about two times in all of the old testament. The significance of the role the order of Melchizedek plays in the latter stages of Scriptures the Jewish people miss til this day. Big sin little sin, sin is sin.
Janhoi Mc Callum. At the point that there is an organized group of Christians campaigning to call one of the other sins not only normal but God ordained, then that will become focal as well. This is not a battle over which sin is greatest, but rather a battle for the integrity of the Bible. Trying to side step this and normalize it by saying there are other sins that happen too simply reeks of compromise and appeasement.
What other parts of the Holy Bible do you not believe?
Interesting, Janhoi, there have been several credible responses and no rebuttal from you. You quote Matthew 9:13. Interesting that you ignore Jesus' teachings on righteousness and what the standards of marriage are. You seem a bit selective in your focus. Why is that?
Sorry folks, but I urge you to stay away from Greg! He is too weak to speak out against wickedness like we are supposed to do, and he also supports Gun Control!
This poor man is so mislead and misleading. Here is a good example of God's grace. This man has not received judgement at the time it was due (Just as all of us) and has been afforded an opportunity to change. I hope he does.
The pastor's (shepherd) responsibility is to preach the full council of the word of God, under the annointing of the Holy Spirit and to protect the sheep from the wolves.
The questions is where do you belong
God hate sin,let us lean and try to all live a righteous life.psalm 24 vs 3 says who can,ascend into the hill of the lord,he DAT has a clean hand and a pure heart.
typical liberal theology
sinners did not continue to fellowship with Jesus unless they repented - if your church is preaching the gospel then sinners will not continue in your church if they do not repent - if your church did as Jesus did and convicted sinners of their sin by preaching the gospel and God granted them repentance then it would be good to continue fellowship
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if you welcome sinners and leave them in their sin then your church has no love and no gospel - Jesus would not continue fellowship with any sinner that refused to repent and so the church also has no fellowship with the heathen
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I am speaking of church membership and Christian fellowship - not just being kind and friendly
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unrepentant sinners should feel uncomfortable in church - not welcome because there is no gospel being preached - when the gospel is preached - sinners either become convicted and repent or they turn away and leave .
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if unrepentant sinners feel comfortable at your church for very long then it is a sure sign that there is no gospel being preached and the Holy Spirit is not present
Perhaps I missed this but how do you square your teaching from "Twisted Scripture" dealing with women not teaching or having authority over women when you pointed to Galatians and said our primary identity is no longer based on our gender or social status but that the passage says our new identity is solely in Christ? You said there is neither male nor female as concerning gender distinction. Isn't it using this same argument you make for scripture not meaning to bar women from being in authority over men because it was specific to the Ephesian culture and the overarching principle is oneness in Christ that Matthew Vines uses in "God and the Gay Christian?" Why is there no gender distinction when it comes to women as elders but there now is when it comes to same sex marriage?
Sorry sir, we are not sinners from the moment we stop practicing sin. Repent and walk in it. Practicing sin makes one a Sinner.
the government has no right in the marriage business
Preach
My beef is that he says in the clip we welcome "gay folks" here..it would have been good to clarify "just like any other sinner...adulterers, fornicators, liars, thieves- sinners are welcome here.because we believe when they come in contact with Jesus in an intimate way and understand the signicance of his sacrifice- they will be transformed from the inside out and be able to overcome through His gracewhich empowers up to transitioninto & partake of the divine nature.
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
+Patricia Obst Sounds like you are going to be lonely....
Patricia Obst I take it you're referring to 1 Cor 5. Did you know that Apostle Paul's letter was to a saintly class of leaders that would become martyrs? Refer further on on that letter to 1 Cor 6:1-3 where he says that they would be judging angels later. Those judging angels are mentioned at Revelation 20:4. They are martyrs who were executed for their faith in Christ Jesus. Not every Christian is in that class. How therefore are we fit to judge and remove people?
5:30...We are INSTRUCTED to judge others !!!!!..... LUKE 17:2 IF YOUR BROTHER SINS AGAINST YOU, REBUKE HIM !!!..... THEN, IF HE REPENTS, FORGIVE HIM..BUT..... READ YOUR BIBLE DUDE !!!!
I can't speak for everywhere in the United States or other countries, however I personally know some pretty awesome Spirit filled churches that are totally LGBTQ affirming .. so much so that they just happen to be some of the leading ministries sought out by people around the country. As a gay man, I can't even imagine going to a church where I am "tolerated" or accepted until I am what that particular church believes is God's Word.Will for LGBTQ people. Indeed ... ALL of us who are in process of transformation come to know that (as one of my Spiritual Directors told me) "It's an inside job" If there are LGBTQ people who are willing to be tolerated "until the change comes", it's not my job to make their decision ... however, I could never be at home at a church like yours, no matter how good your other teaching is.
reinforce your opinion) then you will clearly see, that it’s His Grace and His Love that must always supersede our limited judgment of folks. I personally may not agree with it, or even like it, but I am never ever a Divine Arbitrator of God’s Incredible Mercy and Compassion for my fellow man! It’s the Hoy Spirits job to convict someone of their personal sins, not mine! Gay folks will always be welcome at my church!!!!
The monologue wasn't about adultery so that's why he doesn't say it here. There's always a big distinction between adulterers and LGBT folks in the religious perspective. One is a marginalized group and one it a sinning group. What you've presented is focused on the sin aspect. Boyd is focusing on the marginalized nature of the LGBT community. Both adulterers and LGBT folk should be discipled. Just some thoughts. :) peace on you.
he says being gay is no worse of sin than being an adulterer...then why would he say he is happy that more and more gay people have been attending woodlan Hills and why did he not say that he is happy that more and more adulterers are attendending he church... seeems like he is legitimizing their ie. "hamartia" "missing the mark" "sin" is something to be proud of....he speaks out of both sides of his mouth to be accepted with the "cool" people of the world.
thousands of people globally who are born with these conditions every year. (?) I guess this comes down to the difference in thought that - Another's "Sexual Preferences" (within reason of course excluding animals, children, vegetables, etc..) are they're Own Personal Business and between Them and Their Lord and Savor - NOT BETWEEN THEM, THE LORD and MY OPINIONS. I stay out of their equation, as should you.
The real question here in a aforementioned example is - Does someone like Caster Semenya or (others born with similar physical conditions or god given attributes) actually need “healing” as you’ve stated in your last post (?) If you are psychologically and physiologically born with a condition then how is it a “sin” ??? Obviously, I’m am not conflating here the general “Sinful Nature” that we are all are born with but rather those things that are not a matter of our choice, or lifestyle, etc.
judgments about these people and neither should you!
All right then, let’s look at a real life example of what I’m talking about, as opposed to just hypotheticals. The 2012 Olympic Women’s 800 Meter Silver Medalist, “Caster Semenya”, whom we are both probably well aware of and who has been in the media limelight recently because of the controversy surrounding the authenticity of her gender, I feel fits perfectly into this supposed “category” that we’ve been discussing.
All deception is half truth. Jesus was full of grace AND truth. There is no question that Christians are to be full of grace with all people in light of their own sin. But the foundational issue of faith is repentance according to Jesus. Whatever your sin is...do you believe in Jesus to not only forgive you but cleanse you? Jesus received sinners with the command to go and sin no more. It's not grace according to truth to give them false confidence that they can hold onto sin and Jesus.
Be in His presense.. and as Christians we are called to be a holy and set apart people for the Lord, we are supposed to be different, peculiar. Wemust remember that although we are in this world we are not of it, and therefore cannot approve of what God does not approve of. Yes its the choice of the person to sin, but it is not the Christians choice to say that it is ok, you gave up any rights you had when you gave your life to God, no if andor buts.
Are not to be partakers with them. Also paul says, let not even be named among you! (Nkjv) yes we are caled to love and tell them of Jesus's love and what He did for them, but that's as far as we should be going... pastor greg is telling you what you want to hear which is why you love it! Remeber why God destroyed soddom with fire and brimstone? Homosexuality. God loves the sinner but hates the sin, and until that sinner repents and asks forgiveness God cannot and will not allow him/her to
While yes it is true that we are not called to judge those outside the church as that is God's job, what of those who clame to be believers, and are openly gay? Are we not called to confront them? And I realize that many "Christians" are living in the flesh and in sin, but their sin is not in the open and can not be delt with until its brought into the light, Ephesians 5:1-7 speaks of how people living in fornication (any sexual sin) will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, and that we
That doesn't mean for one second though, that they shouldn't be punished severely for their crimes and incarcerated!
Thanks for standing up for the special sinners who identify as homosexual. I think your church shoul also support the 'minor attrated' souls who were 'just born' that way. We should love them and support their needs to 'love' minors. Maybe we could start a support group for men who steal, and lie and etc etc. They were born that way and can't help it. JESUS SAID (and I paraphrase here) ..I don't care who you beleived yourself to be when you were born, ("I think I'm gay, I think I'm trans, I think I am 'attracted' to minors', I think I'm bisexual, etc etc...". YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! May God open your eyes pastor.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what he is saying...but much of his argument for not "legislating morality" could also be used for murder...or pedophilia.
I went back and listened again. I missed it! For me the guy dances around a lot trying to make a point.
I'm glad I seen this sermon even 5 years afterwards. praise the lord.
To ignore wrong by put your loving arm around some one who sins (whatever sin) and superficially accept them without
communicating the need for repentance with the gifts of forgiveness and healing to follow is escorting them to a precipice over which they fall into a horrid eternity. Jesus said many times REPENT. He said it without being judgemental, but He did say it.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Has Mr Boyd totally forgotten 1Corinthians the 5th chapter" 1 Corinthians 5:1-6 NIV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. [2] And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? [3] For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. [4] So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, [5] hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. [6] 6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough"
Paul clearly tells them your boasting of your love and tolerance is NOT good a little leaven leavened the whole batch. Keep on playing with thise committing sexual sin, which by the way is WARNED ABOUT OVER AND OVER through both old and new testament and see if you don't get burned. You are SO wrong Mr Boyd, homosexuality DO NOT desire love, they desire acceptance, the need you to tell them they are right, worst thing you can do. Of course love them, that's given, my sister has been delivered from 20 years of lesbianism, By PRAYER AND FASTING AND LOVING HER, but never accepting her lifestyle, you Sir are twisting scripture
The bible doesn't extensively address the sin of sexual child abuse either, but I dare Mr. Boyd to tell me that this is not an egregiously worse sin than over-eating. There are indeed degrees of sin measurable by the magnitude of the harm they tend to cause. Some sins are more injurious than others, whether the bible speaks of them often or not. Mr. Boyd often does a merry dance around certain issues, as a matter I assume of wisdom in addressing culture. But it is frustrating at times.
I think I get the gist of your sermon...Since everyone sins we should embrace sin...why fight against a losing battle. I suppose there is nowhere in the bible that says repent since that is a form of judgment!
Galatians 6 1
Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
So the church is never supposed to call a sinner to repentance? What Bible are you reading?
"Doesn't physis teach you that if a man has long hair it is shameful [atimia]?" -- 1 Corinthians 11:14. Paul uses the EXACT same Greek phraseology for same-sex (or at least male-male) intercourse in Romans 1:26-27*
Boyd knows this, but he never mentions it. Yes, there are other passages that could be discussed, but for now I'm just focusing on the Romans passage because I find Paul's issue with long haired men to be fascinating.
(* which is arguably about cultic sex rituals anyway... rituals involving male-male sex, which is para physis and atimia).
Hello. I do not see what hair length has to do with this. Long hair are in no way as "shameful" as gay marriage.
Hey Stetzlaff94, who made you the foremost expert on theology? Just because you disagree with Greg doesn't make him a heretic.
Greg Boyd is preaching moralism, not the Gospel. The apostle Paul preached the Gospel, not moralism. The Gospel is REPENT of your sin and receive eternal life through Jesus Christ. There is no forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is a gift from God. It does not come from us. We do not contribute anything to our salvation. We do not choose Christ, He chooses us.
By this logic all the prophets should have just shut up and nobody has any right to speak up about sin unless they are sinless. Satan is the accuser who tries to silence those who should speak and stand for truth by accusing them and piling guilt and shame on them and telling them have no ground to stand on. Do not let the enemy undermine your calling to disciple the nations and teach them to obey and immobilize the kingdom of God by letting guilt and shame weigh on us. We are free and forgiven and yes we must check for the logs in our eyes first so we can better see to help our brother! Repent of our sins and then help our brother see his fault as well to help lead him into the way and truth and life. Do not let people or the enemy shut you up by shaming you. If it's legitimate criticism repent, find forgiveness and freedom in Christ and continue to bring light, life, and truth in a loving way.
So according to this guy, the church should have zero judgement or opinion on which way to vote on social issues? Pass the weed over here and embrace the Marxism? No judgement on issues? Taken IN CONTEXT, the section in judging others he refers to means to be cautious about it but do judge righteously. We are commanded to love what God loves and hate what God hates.
calling sin a sin is judging; no real christian will say adultery, having idols, sex outside of marriage is okay
On the argument that Christians should not make judgements or seek to censor behaviour of 'the world'; if Wilberforce and Martin Luther King (and other Christian game-changers) had that same approach then slavery and civil rights issues may not have been addressed so seriously. Also comparing Jesus' political response to ours is a false comparison as Jesus was living in a context in which the Jews were under the control of the Romans, not in a democratic society where we can have our voice heard through a vote on how we want society to look like or how we want marriage defined.
Lastly, the slippery slope is real. In Australia, things have moving toward pre-school education where homosexual relationships and transgender identification is normalised and anyone having any kind of opposing or 'traditional' opinion is vilified and being denied the 'freedom of expression' which the zealots for gay marriage claim to be fighting for. Adolescents still developing their sexual identify and perspectives are encouraged to take any sexual approach desired without any moral guidance; and early sexual transitioning is being praised.
Sometimes to go against the tide of society is not judgemental, it's simply making a mark in the sand on where we stand - while loving those around us.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men (such as Greg Boyd) crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus forgave the woman taken in adultery but he didn't stop there; He told her to stop committing adultery. He told her to repent of her sin and stop doing it. If someone has been truly saved; truly born of the Spirit of God, it's because, under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, the sinner sincerely confesses and repents of his sin and receives God's grace through faith in the death and Resurrection of Jesus. From then on, the Holy Spirit continually works through love, to bring the truly self-denying, cross-carrying disciple into allignment with God's Word and will. This dying to self demands the continual placement of the heart upon God's altar of sacrifice and it involves intense pressures of many trials and testings and requires the disciples deepest trust that his Heavenly Father will conform him to the image of the Master. God bless and Shalom.
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked person from among you.'"
1 Corinthians5:12-13.
He did not quote the full verse. There are judgments that are to be made. God give us the grace and courage to do them well.
Sounds like you are talking about an empty church...
Where did Jesus say homosexuality was wicked?
ye..to unsafegreg,...because we have to separate this..Jesus separate it, but also give them, and us chance..this is repentance...acccepttation to to repentance(this what change life a new born creation, when you are born from spirit..sound known?Greg?? Make free those bounded people living in sin, so they can be free and live normally..
The gay marriage amendment was not about punishment or imprisonment. It was about legitimizing a non-legitimate relationship. Why should anyone with a biblical world view support that, or fail to oppose it? Opposing the gay marriage amendment does not mean punishing anyone. It is simply denying a "right" to people to engage in sinful acts and have that sinful relationship legitimized in the law of the land. It is the support of an ungodly thing. The NT says to keep the marriage bed holy. To call something that is an abomination "marriage" is to degrade the idea of marriage in our culture. Why should anyone with a biblical world view stand by and not oppose that? How is it wrong to oppose it? What if a group of people started petitioning for legitimizing rape or incest? Would it be wrong for us to oppose that? We ought to be shining lights in this crooked and depraved generation. Shining lights do not hide in the darkness under the banner, "Do Not Judge," or, "I Am Just as Bad of a Sinner as You are. I Have No Right to Say That You are Doing Anything Wrong." No, that is not how Jesus acted on this earth. He did not look the other way when people committed or promoted vile acts. He came to cleanse us from our sin, not to excuse it. Sin is destructive. Why should we stand by and allow the culture around us to be destroyed when we can do something to preserve it? We are supposed to be salt.
That's not to deny the points that Greg did make in this video. He is correct that we should start with our own sins (which he is correct about), and take out the beams in our own eyes before trying to take the speck out of our neighbors' eyes.
I do agree with a lot of things Greg says here. And he is right about not judging those outside the church. But that means it IS our job to judge those INSIDE the church. But judging does not mean being self-righteous and condemning. It means lovingly confronting about sin, with the goal of love. Love protects (sin is deadly). Love does not rejoice in evil but delights in the truth.
Good presentation, I agree we are to love and encourage all to walk the way of Christ and fulfillment of the law, but Greg skipped over Jesus' emphatic command to sin no more. We need to encourage everyone to live a life that reflects the will of the Father, as Jesus did and encouraged
God created marriage as what is known theologically as a "divine institution" - available to believers and unbelievers alike. His definition includes that it a relationship between a man and a woman. If we try to "fudge" the definition of something set up by God, trouble is unavoidable. Since gays technically cannot marry each other, why don't they come up with their own equivalent? I'm sure they would have no trouble legalizing it.
Come on, Greg. You compared Christians who want to "call out sin" to "The Taliban". ...a group that blows themselves up and cuts off peoples heads with a knife. That argument is absurd at best. I love your sermons. I am surprised and stunned by this statement. .coming from you. Your logic and path of thought has always been impeccable. Seems to me. ..that you were willing to call Christians terrorists in an attempt to love gay people. That is really messed up