Falcon Paladin. Just to give you some knowledge from a old starcraft veteran... the reason why Bisu attacked his pylon at 15:01 was to get all the carrier's interceptors out so when he moves, the interceptors won't have to come out 1 by 1 to attack, instead, the interceptors keep following the carriers real close as long as Bisu keeps moving them without stoping and this facilitates the carrier micro against Goliaths a great deal. Keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos and your style of commentary.
15:02 "Yeah. Killing his own pylon cuz that's blockin the dragoons from getting out" Dear commentator, that engage on his pylon was to release his interceptors. It's an old trick. Usually carriers don't load back all interceptors if u keep them on the move.
15:00 He attacked his own pylon because the first time interceptors come out, they come out one at a time. Every time after, they all come out at once.
What you seemed to miss entirely is that Bisu understood, from how early Flash took his 3rd, that the lower right was all he had mining. Bisu knew his upper left was not going to stop mining anytime soon, so he traded two for two to bring Flash down to 0, at which point he could just whittle down the army, and when Flash couldn't take out the top left he knew he was finished
Great insight, Flash lost when he lost the economy from 23:00 after losing the lower right and couldn't deal Bisu a fatal blow. Flash had almost zero mineral income other than those returning SCV (he was down to 72 mineral 2 minutes later) .
13:50 pros usually don't go wraiths because they are really squishy for their cost (100 gas and 150 minerals while only having 120 hp) and a simple observer will deny any cloaking that they could do. Also, it requires to build more starports than normal (more money and time), while you already have all the factories for mech to begin with. Goliaths are also better for support vs the ground forces of protoss.
But goliaths are just weak it seems. You would need a group of 6-8 to target one carrier effectively as happened with the single carrier kill, for a group of 8 carriers at 15 min what is terran's answer?
@@distortion041 at 15 minutes, you won't be able to pump out wraiths to kill the carriers since you will usually have only one starport, while you already have like 6+ factories. By the time you get enough wraiths the protoss should've crippled you enough at that point for it not to matter. The way you beat carriers is taking advantage of their immobility and taking map control, killing off protoss bases with drops and such and starving them out, picking off carriers when you can.
You need to have a strong enough economy to continuously reproduce Goliaths and be careful enough with your standing Goliath squad to pick off Carriers one by one. Also as Michael Ginsberg says you need to be more aggressive taking map control and trying to deny the Protoss bases.
You don't need that many stargates to make an effective carrier army. B/c Carriers are so cost-efficient once they get into 6-8 numbers, there's not a great need for multiple buildings to optimize production, unlike with Goliaths or Wraiths or Ghosts.
I know the map control strategy looks damn difficult, but overall it is the best way of taking out a Protoss with Carriers. Simply put, there is no other anti-air unit that packs as much punch and can be mass-produced as easily. Check out this unit stat chart: classic.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml Note that the Goliath costs 60% the resources of the Wraith, takes 33% less time to build, AND has 5 greater HP per unit! Theoretically, you could instead opt for Valkyries, which can take out multiple Interceptors with their splash attack, or Battlecruisers, which can tank the Carrier shots and Yamato-snipe them. But Valkyries and Battlecruisers have limited efficiency outside of fighting Carriers and will die to mass Dragoons.
Would love to see a 3v3 of two dream teams of the old school BW groups Team 1: Boxer (Terran), Yellow (Zerg ), and Grrr (Protoss ) Team 2: Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu
Hi Paladin. Great casting. I'm enjoying your commentary. Brings back memories. I should mention Bisu and Flash hardly first gen SC players though. You gotta go way back to the days when the greatest rivalry in e-sports was Boxer(T) v Yellow(Z) v Garimto(P), although you could probably take it back even farther to Ssamzzang(T), HOT(Z), Grrr(Random - yes, it worked back then), et al. but let's not here. Always had a soft spot for Garimto who was the only one consistently able to take down Boxer back when Boxer was basically re-writing the rule book on how to play Terran. The greatest T players before Flash were without doubt the trinity of Boxer, Nada and oov (early 2000s). Surprised only one person in the comments below knowledgeable enough to mention Savior(Z), who perhaps was on his way to becoming the greatest SC player ever - but for his untimely lifetime ban from the game (for match fixing) right in the middle of his epic run. Peak Savior was pretty much unbeatable by even the very best Terran players (Flash included, though he was just getting started, like a 19yr old Mike Tyson). Just untouchable, which sounds unreal, but that's how good Savior was in his day. A true Terran killer and every T learned to fear him most of all. One can only imagine what might have been had he kept playing. One of my favorite moments in SC came at the conclusion of a live tournament broadcast in Korea when the caster said after another humiliating beat down by Savior against a top ranked Terran player (might have been Nada, who was basically Flash before there was Flash): "You know, I'm just realizing, after all those years of saying how unfair the T v Z match up is to Zerg players, watching Ma Jae Yoon (aka Savior) play Zerg the way he does, I'm not sure how it's possible for Terran to beat Zerg anymore..." It was such a definitive statement, but even Terran players and their fans could only agree. But for how lopsided the T v Z match up was otherwise, T fans would have been calling for a re-balancing of the game to (further) favor Terran against Zerg. Ah, good times. Thanks again, Paladin. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for your videos. Coming from someone who played semi pro broodwar, flash brought a style in which I believe you just click hold patrol with the goliaths and the purpose of this is to keep attacking the interceptors and kill them. You’ll note that after these engaged bisu has essentially carriers with no interceptors, and he has to keep using minerals to create more. The Protoss will eventually be starved out of minerals
In this game though Flash ran out of goliaths in the end before Bisu ran out of carriers. Why is that? Was it because Bisu had an abnormally high number of carriers and can rebuild interceptors easily? Was it because Flash couldn't defend his fourth? What should Flash have done better in this game? Should he have tried to target down the carriers more often?
for those wondering why gols weren't directly attacking carriers - carriers actually outrange any unit in the game with proper micro. Carriers has to be in range initially to release interceptors, but once theyre out the carriers can fall back with interceptors still attacking.
The way to fight carriers is to kill off all his interceptors and then track down the carriers. With carrier micro, Bisu would never let flash just target fire and kill them off. If you noticed, at one point, Bisu was very low on minerals because he was replacing so many interceptors. I think Flash could have won if he defended the bottom right with all his goliath and turrets fighting. And he would have taken some better engagements with the fights.
If in range. He wants to destroy interceptors but bad taktic. He should use Goliaths + Marine + med + stim. Individually I would use this combination and some Ghost with lock down.
If you target carrier and they manage to escape it's like you do 0 dmg. But if you constantly kill interceptors he need to spend more money on remaking. Of course if you know you can kill one before it can escape go for it, but in other cases not.
Ghost with locdown = stun forever for carrier. Not many people use ghost which is so weird. But i prefer using mass wraith if enemy mass carriers. A squad of 12 wraith with cloacking will focus fire kill one carrier without the enemy realize what just happen. If he have observer then comm link reveal it and we destroy observer first.
I can understand not wanting to spend the resources and time for multiple Ghost tech with Lockdown, but would it not have been worth Flash's time and money to pop out one Science Vessel with EMP on those Carriers? They were clumped together the whole game and that would be 150 shields gone on all of them in one hit. He already had the Starport - so a Facility, Control Tower, EMP Research and one Vessel would be a total of 450 minerals and 625 gas. With Goliaths at 100 minerals and 50 gas per pop, that's only five or so Goliaths you are temporarily giving up to make the counter that will be good rest of game (and against the ground Toss too). I feel like past games when I see Terran stop Carriers they either go Lockdown or EMP route - surprised Flash just kept pumping out Goliaths, particularly on this map.
Falcon, this is very important for future videos: once you hear the terran player scout the enemy with radar, ASAP more your mouse to find the location on the map where that happens. I know it's hard, but try! This way all the viewers will know what the terran finds.
Because terrain wold not allow them.This is how the game is made.Your units are not that agile and flexible on narrow terrain and they don't see the enemy as good as on open wide areas.
@@crosswire7777 Valkyries fire a large number of low damage missiles. The heavy armor on carriers is very effective against that because it gets applied to each missile separately massively reducing the overall damage.
Awesome cast man! I love a very nice Bisu game, you might have missed at minute 11:30 I think, the point where Flash notices Bisu's carriers but still, awesome, love your work :D
Its funny because flash had more than enough firepower to wipe those carriers out and force bisu to tap out. But flash decided to let bisu take the win.
Few factor for Terran not to use Wraith to counter Carrier. First thing, there are lot of observers to clear to get free attack. Second opponents know you are going to wraith there will counter with crosshairs or phi storm. Third, lack of upgrade. Fourth, with ur cost of building wraith, you have no ground unit to tank damage for siege tank. It will open up for Zealots. I think lockdown is better counter, but it takes economy and tech....
You dont make wraiths vs carriers because wraiths are made of paper and cost too much gas, especially since terran needs to produce tanks as much as possible. Goliaths aren't as mobile, but they scale with tank upgrades and they have better range.
When I see carrier army as a terran, I'd invest on cruisers instead of goliaths. Armor of cruisers are enough to sustain enough interceptor dmg. Plus, OP lasers haha
May be, but if you're a mech terran, by the time you switch from factories to 3-4 starports + science facility + physics lab + time to produce a decent number of cruisers, you're dead.
@@sentryward8744 ghosts are fragile and cost a lot of gas. After they used lockdown, theyd immediately die and have no use afterward. Then you have less tanks and Goliaths, and wasted supply. Also, youd be building barracks alongside your factories which is expensive, you would miss production cycles on a lot of units. Ghosts arent even considered when playing against carriers.
Ghost is a surprise factor if your opponent not prepare for it, you can take out 4-5 carriers easily "especially when P go full air units just like Bisu did this game" i will trade 2 ghosts for a carrier anyday
7:30 bisu thought he could multitask into doing his 3rd expansion, so he wasn't being too careful about his reaver drop, and that was such a huge lost, all that for almost no loss on flash's side.
The terrain was not compatible for Goliath gameplay and it narrowed their movement and fire capabilities.Flash needed powerful air units instead of that much Goliaths.
Wouldn't a several Valkyries not have wiped out the interceptors quickly? Valkyries do heaps of splash damage, which adds up pretty quickly against small targets.
Do you think he should have gone Valkyrie + Goliath when he saw the first 2 Carriers? Could that prevent the defeat? Valkyrie splash damage would easily reduce the interceptor count well as bring down shields of Carriers.
Do you know the story behind this game, FalconPaladin? Apparently Flash was so upset at this loss that sometime after this tournament Flash went over to Bisu's apartment and socked him in the face. According to Bisu, flash has done this to other pro players a number of times in the past and that's why people rarely beat him. They were afraid of getting attacked by "Assault and battery Terran" as he was known behind the scenes. Bisu said he knew this was coming the moment Flash left the game without saying GG.
Lockdown would be great; capture some of his carriers and force him to either leave them for dead or stay in one place to defend, giving the Goliaths time to get in and do tons of damage. A science vessel with Emp would also have made a huge difference, deleting the shields on those carriers would make them easy prey.
You're not really paying attention. It feels like you're making idle chat instead of casting. When the Terran sees the carriers with a vulture, then you can seen soon after he goes into full goliath production, but then you say Terran knows now when the carriers attack but he already knew way before that.
I don't know if I'd really say these were the pioneers. X'Ds~Grrr was the first one, he was simply the best. The best player in the world as random. Then came Boxer and NaDa. There were others, but the title of "pioneers" really goes to them IMO. Good video though!
Yes, the Goliaths WOULD win vs those Carriers - IF they weren't ridiculously clunky, derpy-ass ground units that bump into each other and shoot at Interceptors. Micro-managing big groups of Goliaths vs a competent Carrier commander is a nightmare. You need 3-4 of them per Carrier, and you're limited to a control group of 12, meaning he's managing two different groups at once. Also, please note that Carriers with deployed Interceptors outrange Goliaths by a significant amount. The only way to win this is to catch them in the open, as Carriers are slow.
what's the reason to build goliaths if they are never targeting carriers? he could have bettr result with just building vultures+tanks if her was about base rase
I don’t know why flash didint make a Valkyrie squad there. His ground army was on point, if he had just had ten valkyrie to defend them that carrier squad would have gone down
Is LAN truly linked to not having hackers on the ladder? Can't we have both? No need to sugarcoat everything Blizz does. They are not monsters but they are a corporation and they have interests that don't always align with the consumer.
My feel on this, as a SC original then BW vet who also heavily played Wings of Liberty. I feel like there are two eras of Blizzard there are pre and post takeover by activision. Yes businesses are always out to make a profit, but pre activision the owners of Blizzard were still gamers at heart who just wants to make great games and make money from it. Now its all shareholders and profits and the alignment skewed heavily for Blizzard toward profits. For me and I consider myself not a hardcore but a heavy gamer (I play something everyday), this is what took Blizzard out of being one of my top tier most loved game developers, they now take second tier for me. Others may disagree but for me riot is now the top tier developer and one that really has a good balance between being a profit machine and making a game and then supporting a game that gamers love.
The resource scores were pretty insignificantly different. The EMP would've been prescient and brilliant, but his high volume pressure seemed necessary for continued parity. Maybe there's a more sound re-prioritization...I'm sure he had his reasons then. Probably should've played it slightly more conservatively aggressive and done the SVs...but what do I know?
What were those archons used for? I'd imagine in this matchup vs mech, you wouldn't want a "tanking unit" that takes full damage from concussive damage (vultures) and explosive (tanks).
if microd properly the carriers will win out over mech eventually, just think about this for a sec, bisu had that carrier group going forever, he only had to replace interceptors, flash on the other hand is replacing tank and goliath. thats why flash tapped out, he couldnt do enough damage to bisu econ or the carriers and it was a matter of time before he be out of gas replacing all that mech constantly vs interceptor.
This is awkward to ask but how many drones i need to morph for 1 mineral mine ? I'm pretty damn new to SC tho, trying to play the very first version before SC2.
Bisu was micro'ing the carries to dance in and out of the goliath's range. Something not touched on enough was creative use of terrain to keep the carriers barely out of reach but in reach to focus fire the goliaths as they dance back and forth.
21:45 with that amount of minerals Flash could have produced vultures for attack and kept defending his only mining base with goliaths. why did he decide to trade bases?
3200 minerals.... why not just spam build marines too complement the army composition to take down interceptors? What good does having 3200 minerals do when u die?
You gotta focus fire those carriers.. he should have gone wraiths when the goliaths just couldn’t focus fire.. bisu did a good job keeping their distance so the goliaths couldn’t reach.. when flash lost the 6 o clock base, he was done for
For people who are wondering why he don't attack the carriers. Ignore what people say about them being out of range because of terrain or whatever. The reason is that this is Flash playstyle. look at the economics throughout the game you will see that bisu is nonstop low on minerals because he constantly have to spend everything on interceptors
nemesismkiii halo rockets deals only 6[+1 per upgrade]. Carriers could have negate it due to ship armor + shield strength. So Valkyries are viable mostly against zerg.
Yury Katkov Valkyries are not effective to carriers due to carriers having very high armor and shield especially in late game. In terms of interceptors, it can heal when it goes back inside the carrier. Not really worth trading at all.
Goliaths and ghost plus wraiths. Why people using vultures? Vultures are only good for peons chase. Anyone will use observer or overlords. Mines are only good for defense or peon harassment.
Bisu fan probably until iam gonna be 50 or dead. Starcraft was the best game of my early age. i was 9 when i could play this game. Senzational is least to say
Dude.... your commentary is soooo goooooood its blowing my mind! The tone of voice, the voice melody, changes in the paste of speaking, confidence and all the other nuances...wow. Did you do a lot of voice control exercises? How did your practice and prepare your mind and mood for the commentary? Really interested about your technics and mind frame. I am not a commentator but now and again I do some public speaking so I am just curious. Other sports commentators CANNOT COMPETE!
Welllll I have cast over 2,000 StarCraft games solo at this point. I've duo-casted a few more. Basically practice? I don't do any voice control exercises, nor do I warm up or practice. I just kinda do. :D I'm happy you like my style, though. I enjoy it, too!
So Falcon quick question, I know APM is a good indicator of how good a player is, but seriously I have to ask how any why do these guys have like a 500 APM when it’s the first seconds of the game when it’s just 4 drones working and one being build. How much stuff could they be doing? I feel like I must not be doing enough at the beginning of games if that’s when guys have the highest APMs. So my question would be, what are they doing that early? Thanks Falcon, big fan!
Spamming clicks. Select the nexus/command center, select a worker. Select all the workers, select the base. Select a scouting worker, select the base. Back and forth over and over.
Bisu's only edge in this was the carriers. The building of any other unit was largely ignored. Flash shouldn't of focused on so many turrets as they are virtually a non factor for carriers and also should not have put so much into goliaths. If I had the ability to perform 300+ APM then I would have threw a little into ghosts and lockdown. Maybe even added some nukes while at it.
![Game 5 Bisu vs FlaSh Starcraft proleague Rematch [T.E.N]](/img/n.gif)
Flash vs Bisu!!!!!! Get your popcorn ready because you are in for a show! Thank you FP!!
the greatest terran player vs the greatest protoss player. xD
Falcon Paladin. Just to give you some knowledge from a old starcraft veteran... the reason why Bisu attacked his pylon at 15:01 was to get all the carrier's interceptors out so when he moves, the interceptors won't have to come out 1 by 1 to attack, instead, the interceptors keep following the carriers real close as long as Bisu keeps moving them without stoping and this facilitates the carrier micro against Goliaths a great deal.
Keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos and your style of commentary.
This is why I love starcraft so much, all these little unintended mechanics that the best players exploit to the fullest for a competitive edge.
Rather than returning to the carrier they hang around like a remoras or pilot fish to a shark.
I noticed this when I was playing before, its actually sick
Bro that info is gold
That’s so pro knowledge right there…
12:52
Carriers: "Yo, check this out."
*Does a 360 as they travel*
Dragoons: "😮 Whoa."
Yeah I noticed it too ahaha
all the personel inside must have slammed upside down pretty hard
"Zauk comodoss!"
"Whoa! We are outmaneuvered by a huge-ass capital ship, because we're freaking Derpgoons."
This joke is too good :)))
15:02 "Yeah. Killing his own pylon cuz that's blockin the dragoons from getting out" Dear commentator, that engage on his pylon was to release his interceptors. It's an old trick. Usually carriers don't load back all interceptors if u keep them on the move.
Thanks for the information. :) I'll be sure to use it in future casts!
@@Мойевропейскийжидобандеровский походу)
15:00 He attacked his own pylon because the first time interceptors come out, they come out one at a time. Every time after, they all come out at once.
What you seemed to miss entirely is that Bisu understood, from how early Flash took his 3rd, that the lower right was all he had mining. Bisu knew his upper left was not going to stop mining anytime soon, so he traded two for two to bring Flash down to 0, at which point he could just whittle down the army, and when Flash couldn't take out the top left he knew he was finished
Great insight, Flash lost when he lost the economy from 23:00 after losing the lower right and couldn't deal Bisu a fatal blow. Flash had almost zero mineral income other than those returning SCV (he was down to 72 mineral 2 minutes later) .
I like the image of Biker gangs being our frontline defense against reality warping aliens.
13:50
pros usually don't go wraiths because they are really squishy for their cost (100 gas and 150 minerals while only having 120 hp) and a simple observer will deny any cloaking that they could do. Also, it requires to build more starports than normal (more money and time), while you already have all the factories for mech to begin with. Goliaths are also better for support vs the ground forces of protoss.
But goliaths are just weak it seems. You would need a group of 6-8 to target one carrier effectively as happened with the single carrier kill, for a group of 8 carriers at 15 min what is terran's answer?
@@distortion041 at 15 minutes, you won't be able to pump out wraiths to kill the carriers since you will usually have only one starport, while you already have like 6+ factories. By the time you get enough wraiths the protoss should've crippled you enough at that point for it not to matter. The way you beat carriers is taking advantage of their immobility and taking map control, killing off protoss bases with drops and such and starving them out, picking off carriers when you can.
You need to have a strong enough economy to continuously reproduce Goliaths and be careful enough with your standing Goliath squad to pick off Carriers one by one. Also as Michael Ginsberg says you need to be more aggressive taking map control and trying to deny the Protoss bases.
You don't need that many stargates to make an effective carrier army. B/c Carriers are so cost-efficient once they get into 6-8 numbers, there's not a great need for multiple buildings to optimize production, unlike with Goliaths or Wraiths or Ghosts.
I know the map control strategy looks damn difficult, but overall it is the best way of taking out a Protoss with Carriers. Simply put, there is no other anti-air unit that packs as much punch and can be mass-produced as easily. Check out this unit stat chart: classic.battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml
Note that the Goliath costs 60% the resources of the Wraith, takes 33% less time to build, AND has 5 greater HP per unit! Theoretically, you could instead opt for Valkyries, which can take out multiple Interceptors with their splash attack, or Battlecruisers, which can tank the Carrier shots and Yamato-snipe them. But Valkyries and Battlecruisers have limited efficiency outside of fighting Carriers and will die to mass Dragoons.
Ah, this is satisfying on so many levels at the same time!
Great historical commentary at the beginning!
Thank you! :D
Would love to see a 3v3 of two dream teams of the old school BW groups
Team 1: Boxer (Terran), Yellow (Zerg ), and Grrr (Protoss )
Team 2: Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu
play grrr... what a toss :)
Team 2 would dominate
Hi Paladin. Great casting. I'm enjoying your commentary. Brings back memories. I should mention Bisu and Flash hardly first gen SC players though. You gotta go way back to the days when the greatest rivalry in e-sports was Boxer(T) v Yellow(Z) v Garimto(P), although you could probably take it back even farther to Ssamzzang(T), HOT(Z), Grrr(Random - yes, it worked back then), et al. but let's not here. Always had a soft spot for Garimto who was the only one consistently able to take down Boxer back when Boxer was basically re-writing the rule book on how to play Terran. The greatest T players before Flash were without doubt the trinity of Boxer, Nada and oov (early 2000s). Surprised only one person in the comments below knowledgeable enough to mention Savior(Z), who perhaps was on his way to becoming the greatest SC player ever - but for his untimely lifetime ban from the game (for match fixing) right in the middle of his epic run. Peak Savior was pretty much unbeatable by even the very best Terran players (Flash included, though he was just getting started, like a 19yr old Mike Tyson). Just untouchable, which sounds unreal, but that's how good Savior was in his day. A true Terran killer and every T learned to fear him most of all. One can only imagine what might have been had he kept playing. One of my favorite moments in SC came at the conclusion of a live tournament broadcast in Korea when the caster said after another humiliating beat down by Savior against a top ranked Terran player (might have been Nada, who was basically Flash before there was Flash): "You know, I'm just realizing, after all those years of saying how unfair the T v Z match up is to Zerg players, watching Ma Jae Yoon (aka Savior) play Zerg the way he does, I'm not sure how it's possible for Terran to beat Zerg anymore..." It was such a definitive statement, but even Terran players and their fans could only agree. But for how lopsided the T v Z match up was otherwise, T fans would have been calling for a re-balancing of the game to (further) favor Terran against Zerg. Ah, good times. Thanks again, Paladin. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for your reply, I was wondering if anyone was going to correct Falcon's words about Flash and Bisu being pioneers.
Thank you for your videos.
Coming from someone who played semi pro broodwar, flash brought a style in which I believe you just click hold patrol with the goliaths and the purpose of this is to keep attacking the interceptors and kill them. You’ll note that after these engaged bisu has essentially carriers with no interceptors, and he has to keep using minerals to create more. The Protoss will eventually be starved out of minerals
You're very welcome. :)
In this game though Flash ran out of goliaths in the end before Bisu ran out of carriers. Why is that? Was it because Bisu had an abnormally high number of carriers and can rebuild interceptors easily? Was it because Flash couldn't defend his fourth? What should Flash have done better in this game? Should he have tried to target down the carriers more often?
You are by far my favourite commentator in anything period
Thanks, John. :)
for those wondering why gols weren't directly attacking carriers - carriers actually outrange any unit in the game with proper micro. Carriers has to be in range initially to release interceptors, but once theyre out the carriers can fall back with interceptors still attacking.
So, the three greatest player of starcraft are Bisu (P), Flash (T) and Jaedong (Z)?
Stork makes 4
Boxer oov nada
Bisu, Jaedong, FlaSh, Stork, and FanTasy were the top 5.
Would love to see more Stork matches casted by FP.
Before their time, it was Slayer_Boxer(best Terran player), Yellow (best Zerg player), and Grrr (Best Protoss Player)
I love the mess on screen when it's Goliath vs. Carrier! Fun times
wow! amazing job on the remaster... beautiful quality!
i love carrier games tnx for the upload!
No worries!
11:50 valture at 11 o'clock flash see carriers, started ubgrade galiaf range
12:14 flash started 5 galiafs production
12:24 SURPRIZEEE!
Whaaaat???
vulture* upgrade* goliath*
The way to fight carriers is to kill off all his interceptors and then track down the carriers. With carrier micro, Bisu would never let flash just target fire and kill them off. If you noticed, at one point, Bisu was very low on minerals because he was replacing so many interceptors. I think Flash could have won if he defended the bottom right with all his goliath and turrets fighting. And he would have taken some better engagements with the fights.
Sadly, with tanks around and horrible pathing of units, Goliaths just can't chase those carriers for good.
did he not target the carriers on purpose? i feel like those goliaths could have destroyed those carriers 10 times over
If in range. He wants to destroy interceptors but bad taktic. He should use Goliaths + Marine + med + stim. Individually I would use this combination and some Ghost with lock down.
The carriers often can kite between cliffs, baiting the goliaths if they target the carriers themselves. Depends on terrain mostly
If you target carrier and they manage to escape it's like you do 0 dmg. But if you constantly kill interceptors he need to spend more money on remaking. Of course if you know you can kill one before it can escape go for it, but in other cases not.
How about making Valkyries on the side. Air splash should do some work the interceptors.
Ghost with locdown = stun forever for carrier. Not many people use ghost which is so weird.
But i prefer using mass wraith if enemy mass carriers. A squad of 12 wraith with cloacking will focus fire kill one carrier without the enemy realize what just happen. If he have observer then comm link reveal it and we destroy observer first.
Falcon you the man!! This game just brings back so many good memories, and you have such a great attitude. I am gladly a subscriber to your channel.
Boxer was the best player of all time...maybe not the most skilled but definitely the best.
I can understand not wanting to spend the resources and time for multiple Ghost tech with Lockdown, but would it not have been worth Flash's time and money to pop out one Science Vessel with EMP on those Carriers? They were clumped together the whole game and that would be 150 shields gone on all of them in one hit. He already had the Starport - so a Facility, Control Tower, EMP Research and one Vessel would be a total of 450 minerals and 625 gas. With Goliaths at 100 minerals and 50 gas per pop, that's only five or so Goliaths you are temporarily giving up to make the counter that will be good rest of game (and against the ground Toss too). I feel like past games when I see Terran stop Carriers they either go Lockdown or EMP route - surprised Flash just kept pumping out Goliaths, particularly on this map.
that's cuz it wasn't flash
He's starved on gas, so that's 12.5 goliaths, not 5.
Falcon, this is very important for future videos: once you hear the terran player scout the enemy with radar, ASAP more your mouse to find the location on the map where that happens. I know it's hard, but try! This way all the viewers will know what the terran finds.
lol that sounds frantic and ineffectual
Why don't goliaphs focus on carriers?
because they din do meditation that can aim for concentration
if you focus carriers and win people will stop playing you so Flash gives a game now and there to look normal
Because terrain wold not allow them.This is how the game is made.Your units are not that agile and flexible on narrow terrain and they don't see the enemy as good as on open wide areas.
@@beslemeto why didn't he go valkeries then?
@@crosswire7777 Valkyries fire a large number of low damage missiles. The heavy armor on carriers is very effective against that because it gets applied to each missile separately massively reducing the overall damage.
Awesome cast man! I love a very nice Bisu game, you might have missed at minute 11:30 I think, the point where Flash notices Bisu's carriers but still, awesome, love your work :D
Really great rep, it is always good to see Flash getting beat!
Its funny because flash had more than enough firepower to wipe those carriers out and force bisu to tap out. But flash decided to let bisu take the win.
Few factor for Terran not to use Wraith to counter Carrier. First thing, there are lot of observers to clear to get free attack. Second opponents know you are going to wraith there will counter with crosshairs or phi storm. Third, lack of upgrade. Fourth, with ur cost of building wraith, you have no ground unit to tank damage for siege tank. It will open up for Zealots. I think lockdown is better counter, but it takes economy and tech....
We don't need no probication, vultures leaves the probes alone :)!
Great game for Bisu ! Winning against FlaSh always get my respect
Awesome game, the only question i have, why Flash didn't send an EMP missile with a science vessel to the carriers earlier?
U should check the attack upgrades on the carriers.. +3 attack makes a BIG difference.
Why not mass valkyries against carriers?
5:40... "It hurts". Is it? 40 shield dmg for a mine?) instead of 125. That was tank damaged goon in recovering
Looking at the replay, it looks like flash was winning, but didn’t know it.
You dont make wraiths vs carriers because wraiths are made of paper and cost too much gas, especially since terran needs to produce tanks as much as possible. Goliaths aren't as mobile, but they scale with tank upgrades and they have better range.
When I see carrier army as a terran, I'd invest on cruisers instead of goliaths. Armor of cruisers are enough to sustain enough interceptor dmg. Plus, OP lasers haha
May be, but if you're a mech terran, by the time you switch from factories to 3-4 starports + science facility + physics lab + time to produce a decent number of cruisers, you're dead.
Ghost is the best answer to Carrier
@@sentryward8744 ghosts are fragile and cost a lot of gas. After they used lockdown, theyd immediately die and have no use afterward. Then you have less tanks and Goliaths, and wasted supply. Also, youd be building barracks alongside your factories which is expensive, you would miss production cycles on a lot of units. Ghosts arent even considered when playing against carriers.
Ghost is a surprise factor
if your opponent not prepare for it, you can take out 4-5 carriers easily "especially when P go full air units just like Bisu did this game"
i will trade 2 ghosts for a carrier anyday
7:30 bisu thought he could multitask into doing his 3rd expansion, so he wasn't being too careful about his reaver drop, and that was such a huge lost, all that for almost no loss on flash's side.
Why no ghost's lockdown in this game?
Why the hell Flash didnt target fire carriers with so many goliaths he got?
Firespawnie because bisu made sure his carriers wasnt within visual range, if he could he would
The terrain was not compatible for Goliath gameplay and it narrowed their movement and fire capabilities.Flash needed powerful air units instead of that much Goliaths.
Wouldn't a several Valkyries not have wiped out the interceptors quickly? Valkyries do heaps of splash damage, which adds up pretty quickly against small targets.
hey Falcon, by clicking left mouse button on player nickname you can change view on mini-map
use it
thanks
Do you think he should have gone Valkyrie + Goliath when he saw the first 2 Carriers? Could that prevent the defeat? Valkyrie splash damage would easily reduce the interceptor count well as bring down shields of Carriers.
Yeah, I see a lot of UA-cam comments begging Terran to go valks, but I never, ever see it in the pro games I cast.
No GG - was he angry?
coz he nub
No, the chat is usually purged from these. I'm sure he gg'd.
I think so. Flash think he is overpower than bisu, he can clear enemy base like a cake, he control almost map..
Bisu still at 500 APM! What a God!
Do you know the story behind this game, FalconPaladin? Apparently Flash was so upset at this loss that sometime after this tournament Flash went over to Bisu's apartment and socked him in the face. According to Bisu, flash has done this to other pro players a number of times in the past and that's why people rarely beat him. They were afraid of getting attacked by "Assault and battery Terran" as he was known behind the scenes. Bisu said he knew this was coming the moment Flash left the game without saying GG.
doubt.jpg :)
Could ghosts have been an answer for this carrier madness?
Tiago Campos ghost and science vessels could do the trick
yes, lockdown is the best solution
Lockdown would be great; capture some of his carriers and force him to either leave them for dead or stay in one place to defend, giving the Goliaths time to get in and do tons of damage. A science vessel with Emp would also have made a huge difference, deleting the shields on those carriers would make them easy prey.
You're not really paying attention. It feels like you're making idle chat instead of casting.
When the Terran sees the carriers with a vulture, then you can seen soon after he goes into full goliath production, but then you say Terran knows now when the carriers attack but he already knew way before that.
I don't know if I'd really say these were the pioneers. X'Ds~Grrr was the first one, he was simply the best. The best player in the world as random. Then came Boxer and NaDa. There were others, but the title of "pioneers" really goes to them IMO. Good video though!
"They are a little bit slower" - both have nearly 500 amp...
What does amp mean?
CARRIER HAS ARRIVED!
Lol Flash ragequit?
Yes, the Goliaths WOULD win vs those Carriers - IF they weren't ridiculously clunky, derpy-ass ground units that bump into each other and shoot at Interceptors. Micro-managing big groups of Goliaths vs a competent Carrier commander is a nightmare. You need 3-4 of them per Carrier, and you're limited to a control group of 12, meaning he's managing two different groups at once. Also, please note that Carriers with deployed Interceptors outrange Goliaths by a significant amount. The only way to win this is to catch them in the open, as Carriers are slow.
what's the reason to build goliaths if they are never targeting carriers? he could have bettr result with just building vultures+tanks if her was about base rase
I don’t know why flash didint make a Valkyrie squad there. His ground army was on point, if he had just had ten valkyrie to defend them that carrier squad would have gone down
Right?? This match was fixed!
21:09 goddamn was that a pretty sight
9:18 flat bacon done ! yay!!
ant a glass of milk with some pancakes to go with that
Is LAN truly linked to not having hackers on the ladder? Can't we have both? No need to sugarcoat everything Blizz does. They are not monsters but they are a corporation and they have interests that don't always align with the consumer.
My feel on this, as a SC original then BW vet who also heavily played Wings of Liberty. I feel like there are two eras of Blizzard there are pre and post takeover by activision. Yes businesses are always out to make a profit, but pre activision the owners of Blizzard were still gamers at heart who just wants to make great games and make money from it. Now its all shareholders and profits and the alignment skewed heavily for Blizzard toward profits. For me and I consider myself not a hardcore but a heavy gamer (I play something everyday), this is what took Blizzard out of being one of my top tier most loved game developers, they now take second tier for me.
Others may disagree but for me riot is now the top tier developer and one that really has a good balance between being a profit machine and making a game and then supporting a game that gamers love.
Why noone builds an extra cc for scans?
The resource scores were pretty insignificantly different. The EMP would've been prescient and brilliant, but his high volume pressure seemed necessary for continued parity. Maybe there's a more sound re-prioritization...I'm sure he had his reasons then. Probably should've played it slightly more conservatively aggressive and done the SVs...but what do I know?
What were those archons used for? I'd imagine in this matchup vs mech, you wouldn't want a "tanking unit" that takes full damage from concussive damage (vultures) and explosive (tanks).
good for clearing mines, and soaking up damage
lovely sprites *.*
if microd properly the carriers will win out over mech eventually, just think about this for a sec, bisu had that carrier group going forever, he only had to replace interceptors, flash on the other hand is replacing tank and goliath. thats why flash tapped out, he couldnt do enough damage to bisu econ or the carriers and it was a matter of time before he be out of gas replacing all that mech constantly vs interceptor.
If Flash had mixed in some ghosts with lockdown and/or science vessel with EMP, I think he could have beat that carrier fleet.
@@augustday9483 in a perfect world, yes, I just dont think he had the gas to spare
good to see bisu win some against flash
This is awkward to ask but how many drones i need to morph for 1 mineral mine ? I'm pretty damn new to SC tho, trying to play the very first version before SC2.
This may help. :) liquipedia.net/starcraft/Mining#Saturation
Good match I was surprised when Flash left when he did, Bout time Bisu pulled one out on him.
I'm sorry was flash not target firing the carriers? We learn this in battle carriers 101 course...
Bisu was micro'ing the carries to dance in and out of the goliath's range. Something not touched on enough was creative use of terrain to keep the carriers barely out of reach but in reach to focus fire the goliaths as they dance back and forth.
11:50 you had on screen vulture near the two carriers :) but maybe he wasn't watching there :| but he was because then he started building 6 goliaths
Part 2???
bisu should have use arbiter to summon carriers, two or three arbiters can works very well
Really fun game. Suspenseful the whole way through.
Thanks. :)
Love seeing the carriers
Where’s the wraiths!?
PvT matchups are always epic!
21:45 with that amount of minerals Flash could have produced vultures for attack and kept defending his only mining base with goliaths. why did he decide to trade bases?
3200 minerals.... why not just spam build marines too complement the army composition to take down interceptors? What good does having 3200 minerals do when u die?
There is only 200 supply.
Toss using carriers, Flash vs. Stork in two consecutive finals a month apart.
You gotta focus fire those carriers.. he should have gone wraiths when the goliaths just couldn’t focus fire.. bisu did a good job keeping their distance so the goliaths couldn’t reach.. when flash lost the 6 o clock base, he was done for
flash did no gg, was he pissed off?
12:53 bisu carrier dance 😂
damn. talk about a rage quit. hahahhahaha
Chat isnt displayed... so probally not...
For people who are wondering why he don't attack the carriers. Ignore what people say about them being out of range because of terrain or whatever.
The reason is that this is Flash playstyle. look at the economics throughout the game you will see that bisu is nonstop low on minerals because he constantly have to spend everything on interceptors
where are the valkiries Flash???
finally I see a game where Flash actually loses! :D
I have at least one more of those on this channel. :D
maybe you do, but it's damn hard to find, since I've watched like 6-7 Flash games by now and he absolutely crushes in all of them :D
People use to Bomber was the best, I think was early 2000's?
I would've thought Valkyries were better than Wraiths against Carriers...
nemesismkiii halo rockets deals only 6[+1 per upgrade]. Carriers could have negate it due to ship armor + shield strength. So Valkyries are viable mostly against zerg.
doesnt flash know he needs to focus fire on carriers?
What about Valkyries agains the Carriers, are they effective? Goliaths with their clumsy pathing don't look too scary against those mighty Bananas.
Yury Katkov Valkyries are not effective to carriers due to carriers having very high armor and shield especially in late game. In terms of interceptors, it can heal when it goes back inside the carrier. Not really worth trading at all.
Mighty Bananas. Flash was slapped with ten of those Mighty Bananas
Lol sorry
Goliaths and ghost plus wraiths. Why people using vultures? Vultures are only good for peons chase. Anyone will use observer or overlords. Mines are only good for defense or peon harassment.
Bisu fan probably until iam gonna be 50 or dead. Starcraft was the best game of my early age. i was 9 when i could play this game. Senzational is least to say
Slayers-Boxer was a Starcraft esports superstar many years before flash was even a player......
15:05 Carriers are not killing the pylon lmao and Bisu Nexus in the start was way before Flash's nat expo..
Dude.... your commentary is soooo goooooood its blowing my mind! The tone of voice, the voice melody, changes in the paste of speaking, confidence and all the other nuances...wow. Did you do a lot of voice control exercises? How did your practice and prepare your mind and mood for the commentary? Really interested about your technics and mind frame. I am not a commentator but now and again I do some public speaking so I am just curious. Other sports commentators CANNOT COMPETE!
Welllll I have cast over 2,000 StarCraft games solo at this point. I've duo-casted a few more. Basically practice? I don't do any voice control exercises, nor do I warm up or practice. I just kinda do. :D I'm happy you like my style, though. I enjoy it, too!
@@FalconPaladin Great talent, all the best!
So nice ! Love Flash! love Bisu! love starcraft!
Carriers are badass
goliath is coming now,and the walking style wek wok wek wok lol
So Falcon quick question, I know APM is a good indicator of how good a player is, but seriously I have to ask how any why do these guys have like a 500 APM when it’s the first seconds of the game when it’s just 4 drones working and one being build. How much stuff could they be doing? I feel like I must not be doing enough at the beginning of games if that’s when guys have the highest APMs. So my question would be, what are they doing that early? Thanks Falcon, big fan!
Spamming clicks. Select the nexus/command center, select a worker. Select all the workers, select the base. Select a scouting worker, select the base. Back and forth over and over.
Falcon Paladin what does that do for them? And let me preface this with I’m an idiot noob at the game so sorry if this is a stupid question.
All I've ever heard is that it's warmup. Gets their fingers loose and ready to go for when they need the APM.
You can watch an FPVOD by Bisu or Flash or Jaedong to see what it looks like when they are playing.
Bisu's only edge in this was the carriers. The building of any other unit was largely ignored. Flash shouldn't of focused on so many turrets as they are virtually a non factor for carriers and also should not have put so much into goliaths. If I had the ability to perform 300+ APM then I would have threw a little into ghosts and lockdown. Maybe even added some nukes while at it.
Where is gg???
@J Ygb So what?...
@@rafapraski5279 sc1 replay don't save in game text
@@LuckyDuckie115 Ok - thanks ;)
Really thought protoss was gonna die when he lost his bases