Check out The Long-Expected Soundscape: jordanrannells.com/shop 25% off the 3-part collection: NERD25 (Expires June 10, 2023) 15% off the 3-part collection after June 10: NERD15 10% off one soundscape: NERD10
@@CrookedRosePOD Tom Bombadil is in the Soundscape! played by Phil Dragash, some may recognize that name :) You'll hear him singing away in the distance :) and Goldberry singing :D
*As much as he wanted to play Gandalf… Sir Christopher Lee was absolutely PERFECT to play Saruman. His commanding and stoic presence along with his cunning voice was just again…PERFECT casting.🙏🏼*
@Slywerk A pity, but don't forget that there is only so much you can put into a film. Alot has to be cut out sometimes and even then, things have to be mixed/changed for an audience rather than readers. Cinema's won't show films if they are too long, and DVD's can only hold so many hours.
@@GameAnGrog Lovely stuff. My dad had fun with that when they moved into their bungalow when I was a kid. He did the roundup and diesel trick, then rotavated the back garden 4 times, then dug it out 4 times, then cleared out all the scaffolding pins and other rubbish, until he found a live grenade from WW2 by the garage... We came home to a bomb disposal truck..
Never thought of it until watching this but.....boromir trying to take the ring IS what SAVED the quest. Else, this likely WOULD have been what happened.
That's spot-on, because until this point, the Fellowship members had been debating whether to go straight to Mordor or to go to Gondor first. Boromir trying to take the ring made Frodo realize that the only hope of winning was to destroy it as soon as possible, and that he had to do it alone. Luckily, Sam was smart enough to guess that Frodo would try to sneak off, and was able to catch up to him.
Well, Galadriel did warn Frodo that all the members of the fellowship would eventually succumb to the ring and try to take it, starting with Boromir, and this when he realized he would have to go it alone, with Boromir being the big confirmation that he had no choice and had to do it immediately.
7:29 The description of the voice of Saruman perfectly shows how well cast Sir Christopher Lee was in the role. Man's voice was simply iconic. "Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spake to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it."
I wonder if at some point, Faramir and Eowyn's rebels would be approached by new allies. Two blue pilgrims from the east, leading an army of alikely thinking men, seeking any form of resistance that is willing to stand up against their former leader.
Radagast. He fell away from his appointed path to look after nature instead, but he never fell to evil... he might get off his ass and do his actual job if Saruman managed to claim the ring. Especially with how much Sarumans likely push towards indstrialization would harm the nature he loved so much. This is a scenario that really seems likely to spur him into action, and Saruman is likely to underestimate his potential. Radagast rallying the natural world to fight Saruman would also be a tactic he'd be unlikely to anticipate, giving a necessary advantage to the resistance- they'd need everything they could get with Saurman having the ring. Finding someone strong enough to toss the ring into Mt Doom would be a challenge. Maybe they could talk Bombadil into doing it? He wouldn't take it seriously enough to be a good long term custodian, but talking him into a trip to Mordor might be feasible. The Blue Wizards may well get involved, but there's not enough information on them to really predict what they might do. Could be anything from swearing fealty to the new dark lord to immediately throwing down with the full measure of their power, rules of engagement calling for a support role be damned.
Have you looked into the Kingdoms of Arda mod for Mount and Blade 2? Still very much in development but it looks to become exactly what you're looking for.
I would encourage you to check out Divide and Conquer, a mod for Medieval II Total War. It’s a complete and total conversion mod that turns the entire game into Lord of the Rings in The Third Age, and one of my favorite moments is Isengard when you get the Ring and Saruman becomes the Lord of the Ring.
@@filiperiksson3259 It's just not the same. If you could play a first person game, fighting massive armies, going through Middle Earth, that would be incredible.
You should do a theory video on what if Sam insisted on bringing Bill the Pony the whole way? How far could they have realistically made it bringing a pony everywhere?
For some reason, I hate Saruman more than any other LOTR villain. I think what I hate the most about him is how he always puts himself above everybody else. I've always hated characters and people who do this. They really couldn't cast anyone else, but Christopher Lee (RIP). This man had a perfect signature look of superiority.
Cutting out Saruman's death scene was criminal. There's an interview with Christopher Lee where he corrects Peter Jackson on how he should react to being stabbed by Grima. The dude was one of a kind.
I would love to see you do a video answering “what if Saruman came down?” In the Voice of Saruman in the books, Gandalf offers him the chance to redeem himself and help them one last time. What might have happened had he repented and joined our heroes?
Well, Saruman would not have trashed the Shire, so the Hobbits would not be coming home to a big mess. As for the rest, since the Fellowship & Frodo won their battles without Saruman, I supposed having him on their side probably would not have created a much different outcome.
"He may have rendered great service" He might have been instrumental at the Battle of Pellenor (sic?) Fields. His voice may have bolstered the defenders of Minas Tirith against the fear instilled by the Nazgûl. Or perhaps he could have laid enchantments upon mumaks or felbeasts. Many that would have died might have lived. It would not change the outcome of the war, but an extra wizard would have changed many lives. My two cents.
@@lysander3262I lean more towards the "great service" consisting of Saruman telling them what he knew. His staff was broken, so I doubt he would have any instrumental role in the rest of the story. His soul may have been redeemed in the end though
He would have his telepathic ability greatly increased. In this way, he would control the Nazgûl (Unfinished Tales version), the Orcs, Trolls, Wargs and other evil creatures in the Misty Mountains. If Sauron didn't attack soon (logistically impossible with the existence of Gondor), he would be outmatched and overthrown. I imagine that this way Saruman would have two strong domains in the end: Isengard and Mordor.
Sauron had armies arranged along a very long front. He had both the forces and the geography to send an army into Rohan from the north either from the Black Gate or from Dol Guldur.
@@7yep4336dfgvvh Sauro and Saruman are both Maiars. More or less equal in power. There is no reason Saruman wouldn't be able to overthrow Sauron if he was wielding the One Ring.
Theoretically, I'm sure that Saruman would be able to turn his might to Subjugating or expelling the portion of Sauron's soul within the ring.@@groerhahn225
Excellent theory. It sounds almost like Saruman obtaining the ring and taking over Middle Earth would be akin to Tolkien's worst industrialization nightmare
@andreasjensen3853 Tolkien might've disliked allegory but Lotr is quite obviously allegorical. Tolkien freely admitted so himself in his letters And the industrialisation and deforestation of Isengard are in no subtle way depicted as evil
@@yw9113 Yeah obviously people can put more meaning into words than what they were meant to at the time they were written. "I think the text is a metaphor for bl bla bla" is straight out wrong if the writer mentions the fact that is NOT a metaphor for anything. He admitted that the LOTR trilogy was allegorical? Please give the source for that. In my copy of the first book it clearly states that it is not meant to give a secondary meaning.
What if Gollum killed Sam and Frodo in their sleep? What if Eomer took the ring? What if Borimir took the ring? What if Azog took the lonely mountain? And how would that effect the war if the ring? What if the balrog killed the fellowship? What if Saruman won helms deep?
Saruman was one of the most interesting characters in the book, the Voice is especially a fascinating concept. Imagine going to Saruman and even from a distance you hear a musical voice and feel your heart lifted, you want to sit down and listen forever not turning into an automaton you still have your faculties but just completely charmed and beguiled. Imagine the power of that. The Sirens from Greek mythology would be an analogy.
Oooh now this is a possibility I never considered! Loved your previous what if installments, theyre like an extra special event. If you dont mind me throwing out my own suggestion: What if Isildur survived Gladden Fields? Meaning that his company still gets ambushed, sons killed and stll loses the ring, but doesnt get felled by arrows?
would much have been different really? I wonder what would've happened if during the Nirnaeth Arnoenidad the evil men hadn't been evil and betrayed their allies, would the alliance have won and what wod the landscape look like afterward?
To be fair, losing the Ring is WHY he got felled by arrows. He put on the Ring and dove into the water to try to escape, but the Ring did what the Ring likes to do and abandoned him, leaving him exposed.
I absolutely LOVE how the battle of Isengard mirrors the battle of Pelennor fields, in which the losing forces defending a fortress are saved by an emerging army. Even better, it also mirrors the battle of Five Armies, in the sense that the giant eagles save the day. Just that it isn't eagles but fellbeasts, and the day isn't saved. It's quite impressive how you manage to both stay as close to the lore and the spirit of Tolkien as possible while also coming up with an interesting scenario. Amazon Studios should have hired you as a writer, really.
I was always under the impression that only Sauron can use the rings power properly, and that it is always seeking to reunite with him. I've always believed that any scenario that involves someone claiming the ring for themself is ultimately serving Sauron's end. It will inevitably return to him.
Supposedly according to Tolkein that doesn't apply if the ring is claimed by a Maia, who could claim the ring to such a degree that it results in the same outcome for Sauron as if the ring were destroyed. Though the evil in the ring would still dominate the Maia that claimed it.
One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. @@Jim-pq9pm
I think it would have been possible for Saruman to get the ring earlier than he did. If Gandalf had decided to go to the shire instead of listening to Radagast, then Gandalf wouldn't have known of his treachery, and they might have taken the ring to Saruman willingly. That has always been one of my big "what ifs". Gandalf even said that if he'd known about the ring wraiths being abroad, he never would have listened to Radagast, he would have gone straight to the Shire and left right away, missing out on a lot of the members of the Fellowship along the way.
Interesting theory but it’s missing one major player: Manwe. Yes the Valar have an annoying tendency to not get involved, but if things get bad enough they have eventually used their might to defeat Morgoth’s forces in the past. Sending the Istari was Plan A, as it ideally would allow the free peoples to resist Sauron on their own, and sending back a “powered up” Gandalf after he proved he would not be corrupted by it was further evidence of Manwe’s care for the survival of the free people’s. In the books, that was enough, but had the ring come up Sauron it Saruman, I fully believe the Valar would have intervened directly.
Great video! but how would Gandalf free King Théoden from Saruman's control if Saruman possesses The One Ring and his power over King Théoden at its fullest ?
Here is the deal: The One Ring will keep magic and prevent the Decay of Middle Earth, albeit in a quite cruel way. After all, the valar left the race of men to its own devices, almost alone.
I loved tour theory and storytelling as always, Matt! As for changes: I think after claiming the ring and defeating Gandalf, Saruman wouldn't send the Nazgul to Minas Tirith. He would instead let the war play out longer, in order to weaken all other major powers. He would eventually side with Men, as you point out, but he would wait to see the results of the battle. If Gondor resisted, he would send an emissary (not the Nazgul, as they would be hidden or spying on the elves for now) and propose an "alliance" to defeat the remaining foes of Gondor, wich would actually enslave Denethor to his will, as he did before with Theoden. If the invading armies won, in the other hand, he would go through the same plan over a longer period, pitching men against orcs. The rest would go just as you said. I'd add that Fangorn would be absolutely put to ruins, and given to the Men under Saruman's control right away. Also, I'm very curious on how the three remaining wizards would react to this scenario. Radagast would likely be the first to confront him, and lose.
@@electroskylightgaming4085 The Three Elven Rings were intended to help prevent decay, not the One. It's purpose was to allow Sauron to dominate the wearers of the other Rings of Power.
I love these theory videos! Just finished yet another read through of LOTR and wanted to add these to your list in case you didn’t have enough awesome content ideas in the pipeline 😅 - What if Sam takes the ring - What if Faramir takes the ring - What if Aragon takes the ring - What if Boromir takes the ring
Loving these theory videos. In the Balrog video you mention how it's possible the Balrog of Moria might act as an ally to Sauron and it would be awesome to see a theory video considering what effect a more active Balrog would have on middle earth.
I think I’m starting to get dangerous ideas, though I will ask my aunt about it as the dangerous idea is something pretty large. What if Chort got the one ring? To boil this character down she’s from a completely different series or rather her personality goes back to 1956, then tweaked 62 years later.
I don't think the process of mastering the ring would be so trivial as Saruman deciding to be its master. I think it would be a process that would take time to fight for its control. While Saruman is a powerful Wizard he is not as powerful as a Maia and is weakened compared to his Maia form. great vid! it clearly shows alot of time and research put in!
@@Cerylion Its interesting to look how much Saruman prepared and how all of his preparations still lead to failure. I think Saruman is a great example of how preparation by your self in isolation isnt very useful. “No plan survives first contact with the enemy.” He has no real allies or friends to help him and does not truly test his plans against adversity. In his arrogance he sees his plans as flawless. Saurman prepares an army and weakens Rohan, yet its clear both in the books he does not actually have good battle strategy (this is seen in lotr and expressly state by Hammond and scull and discussed in a PPP episode. He sets himself up in a great position to find the ring, and yet fails to find it. He is the leader of the white council yet Gandalf is really the one that ends up directing the councils actions. While I agree that Saruman is one of the few who could master the ring, his knowledge is purely academic and not practical like Gandalf or Galadriel who wield rings of power and have been in the presence of the one.
Wrong. If anything, Saruman's intentions were the exact opposite: he experimented with creating his own rings SOLELY BECAUSE he didn't possess (but very badly lusted after) the One Ring himself. Although both beings were Maiar, Sauron was far, far greater & more powerful than Saruman; and Sauron's One Ring was far, far more powerful than anything Saruman could have ever made.
@Gilliganfrog Tolkien himself said that if Saruman had been able to fill the gaps in his Ring-lore he would have been able to forge a Great Ring of his own and challenge the bearer of the One.
Interesting choices for Saruman's actions! I would have never figured what would have happened if he had hidden that he had found the ring from Sauron! Thanks for this interesting "what if"! 😎🤘☮
Amazing video,huge fan. compelling and perfectly reasonable within the lore and universe, but that epilogue... you have to do a follow-up 'what if' about that, the whole idea of their meeting would make for a great tale!
Loved the video, man. Such a great take! One of the most interesting "what if" moments on the whole timeline for me is what if the Balrogs would have been too late and shelob had consumed the silmarils and Morgoth. Instead of a main antagonist who is cunning and bides their time the free peoples would have had to face one that was more instinct and hunger-driven
I feel like the Valar would be force to intervene at this point. After all they sent Saruman to middle earth in the first place. I think they would have unlocked all of Gandalf’s power as a Maiar. Putting him on even footing to a white wizard wielding the ring.
10:37, I feel like at this point the Elves would also have to step in. Mirkwood and Loth Lorien might not be able due to orc incursions but Rivendell would have to participate.
No idea if you'll see a comment on a video this old, but I have been rereading LotR and came across a part that I think would make for an interesting "what if" theory. Near the end of Fellowship, Aragorn discusses what the Fellowship should do. He acknowledges Boromir will go to Minas Tirith, suggest Merry and Pippin should do the same, doesn't comment on Legolas, and volunteers the rest, including him, to go to Mordor with Frodo. What if the orc attack didn't happen, Boromir did not die, the hobbits didn't get captured, and the fellowship did end up splitting apart the way Aragorn suggested? It's an interesting and hugely significant change to the story. The actions of Aragorn and his followers almost single handedly prevent both Rohan and Gondor from being destroyed. One also wonders what Gandalf would do had he not rejoined him.
Sarauman becomes basically Sauron himself with similar motivations, but slightly different as well. Sauron wants to control people to benefit people according to his evil philosophy which leads to him being autocratic, Saruman wants to resources more than people, but he Saruman also wants to control people, but Saruman likely kills off many more people than Sauron in the end because he craves gold and jewels more.
Well, they are both (former) servants of Aulë, and suffer the same controllingly-ambitious weaknesses of character. Makes sense they'd take ME in relatively the same direction.
Sauron would not have fallen as long as the One Ring exists; only when destroyed would he be crippled since much of his power was made into the ring. Similarly, as long as that power exists, Sauron remains as he was/is without the ring. That is clearly stated in the LoTR books.
You brought up a fascinating logical problem with the Nazgul. No doubt many others have asked this, but it's worth asking here for sure. Saruman said that if he held the One Ring, then the Nazgul would call him "Lord." Do the Nazgul obey Sauron, or whoever holds the Ring? One interpretation is that they obey Sauron because Sauron "holds" the Nine Rings. They are enslaved by their rings, he holds them, so they obey him. Another interpretation is that things DID work that way UNTIL Sauron created the One Ring to rule all others, after which point they obeyed whoever held the One Ring. Which brings up the problem of why they continued to obey Sauron when he no longer held it -- which was for most of their existence. When the Witch-King ruled Angmar in the Third Age, was he obeying Sauron, or was he doing his own thing and enjoying being a deathless evil badass? This is important as a plot hole in the Lord of the Rings story, because if the Nazgul ultimately obeyed whoever held the Ring, then they were emphatically NOT the right servants to send after it. If the Ring was claimed by an enemy of Sauron who was strong enough to wield it, Sauron would want the Nazgul far away from that person, otherwise it's just shortening the time before that new owner gathers the Nazgul and starts to command them. Raising more wights in the Barrow-downs for himself and whatever. In the context of your video, I'd think Sauron would never want the Nazgul to go anywhere near Orthanc. Any thoughts on which way this goes? Because there are big issues with each interpretation. Thanks for all your video thoughts!
This is a lot better than the 'What if Gandalf took the One Ring' video (in which Gandalf, supposedly the wisest of the Maiar, ultimately has a brainfart and actually decides to invade Valinor). The main problem with this new theory is whether Gandalf would any longer be able to break the spell of a now Ring-wielding Saruman and cure Théoden. Added to that is the very dubious notion that Théoden would then simply agree to attack Isengard. The other idea I'm having difficulty accepting as possible or credible is that Sauron could be persuaded to suddenly launch an attack on Minas Tirith. I don't understand this notion of Saruman pretending to simply possess the Ring for a bit rather than wielding it while also promising to hand it over to Sauron. Saruman would not try this on as Sauron was obviously never going to believe it. Sauron would instead focus entirely on getting the Ring back rather than playing any of Saruman's games. He would immediately send the Nazgûl for the Ring before Saruman could master it (just as he told Pippin in the palantír, when Sauron actually thought Saruman had the Ring). But that raises the question as to whether the Nazgûl would simply switch their allegiance to a RIng-wielding Saruman. Could Sauron have possibly hoped to get the Ring back in this or any other way, if Saruman had got his hands on it? In any case, even if the Nazgûl couldn't take the Ring off Saruman and hand it over to its maker, Sauron would launch all his armies on an assault on Isengard to get the Ring back. He wouldn't even bother with Gondor. And one other thing: why in this video does it suppose, if Saruman had the Ring, that Sauron could never again take bodily form? He already had - as was stated in a previous video: 'What if Sauron had got the One Ring'. And why would Saruman have no need for orcs? He'd spent decades breeding his own Uruk-hai, after all - would he have no need of those? Wouldn't it have been better for the Nazgûl to take command of the orcs besieging MInas Tirith to help in Saruman's conquest of MIddle-earth? Unlike Sauron, he wouldn't be able to rely on the support of the Easterlings and Southrons (who Sauron had spent centuries winning over), but Saruman through the Nazgûl would be able to control the orcs, whose only allegiance was to a dominant will. A Ring-wielding Saruman would be that dominant will - surpassing that the hold that Sauron had over the orcs.
Fantastic video as always! I absolutely adore these types of videos from you. I know you generally shy away from theory videos as you don’t want to become purely that, but I certainly wish you would do them a bit more often! One quick question, is it really so simple to just “claim” the ring? How do you go about doing that when it’s current master is Sauron? Do you have to hold more power than Sauron and convince the ring you would be a better master? Okay sorry, that was more than one. I got carried away haha.
All of the Istari; the wizards, arrived to Middle Earth via the Grey Havens. Why did Cirdan the Shipwright not give Narya to Saruman? But instead gave it to Gandalf? Was it a fore-telling? An intuition?
The one thing I note is that I suspect that the elves would flee middle earth when an enemy took the ring whether that enemy was Sauron or Sauruman. While Lothlorien and Rinvendell may fall I suspect they would both be near empty before they fall. Perhaps a rearguard would remain but Elven kind would have fled to the havens.
Here's an idea. What if Gollum didn't fall once he got the ring from Frodo, and instead escaped the mountain? Or for that matter, if he simply stole it back at some point during the journey not like he didn't have ample chances.
The only problem with this theory is that Sauron would have never trusted Saruman with the ring. He would have attacked Isengard immediately and razed Isengard.
I have to ask Why did after Saruman was discovered to be with Sauron, after he turned away from the valar did he not utilise his true nature as a Maiar spirit (the same type of being as Sauron) Why did he remain limited within his wizard form as I know they suppressed themselves and chose subtler forms as advisors. Surely in his new role as wannabe conqueror and challenger to both nation and Sauron another maiar (one weakened by his spirit being poured into the ring) he’d use his full power?
Good question: the reason is because while Saruman and Gandalf were both some of the most powerful Maia they were essentially given parental locks by the Valar. They couldn’t use 100% of their power in fact my guess was they were only able to access maybe 10% if that of their natural capabilities. This was to ensure they wouldn’t cause havoc like what happen at the end of the first age with the Valar sinking half the continent. Gandalf once he was resurrected did gain access to more of his natural abilities which is why he was stronger than Saruman after coming back. Gandalf did not get stronger he was just unburdened by some of his previous limitations originally placed on him. Now Sauron didn’t have any limitations placed on him by the Valar so he was free to use 100% of his natural innate powers. And given the fact he was the second strongest Maia to exist this meant none of the wizards to oppose him openly. The only limitations Sauron had were the ring of course and his spiritual power weakening due to the fact he had used so much of it in pursuit of physical things. Much like the diminishment of melkor.
Have you ever done a video about the Silmarills and their making, powers and histories? That would be most welcome! Thanks for your vids, I'm a new subscriber of your videos and they are amazing!
Excellent theory. Also, that in Gandalf's corpse, Saruman finds Narya the Great. Imagine the fire power, literally, he gains. The rest of the Elves and Dwarfs stand no chance.
This is a very thoughtful imagining, I think. It makes sense that Saruman would seek to manipulate Denethor instead of trying to defeat Gondor militarily at that point - even in canon, he tries to persuade Theoden to make peace. The fact that his voice also brings together men of the east and west against the orcs - though obviously not for benign reasons - is an interesting twist. I can even see how Saruman's powers of persuasion, enhanced by the ring, might lead men of Gondor to turn on the elves; it wouldn't necessarily need to be about dominating their wills so much as exploiting the fact that they would probably see them as recluses who contributed nothing to their defense since the War of the Last Alliance. Those ties aren't as strong as they used to be, and you can see the seeds of a sentiment like that in Boromir at the Council of Elrond when he says it's only because of Gondor that their lands are kept safe. Loved the epilogue, by the way. I was wondering how those two figured into things! It feels right.
Nice theory. I would differ in one point: A powerful ring bearer like Saruman would not need to come in proximity to the Nazgul. They would serve him the instance he claims the Ring. Regardless of where they are at the time.
Great video, but I have some questions. In your hypothetical story, when Saruman gets the ring and claims it for himself, Sauron is basically finished. He looses the Nazgul and his physical form and is basically defeated. If that is the case, why does he ever treat him as an ally and help him get the ring to Isengard? I know Sauron never really considered anyone trying to destroy the ring in mount Doom, because he could not understand why would anyone try to destroy it instead of use it for themselves. In that case, he should have well understood that Saruman would very likely try to claim the ring which basically spells doom for him, yet he allies himself with him and sends orcs to escort the ring to Isengard (correct me if I am wrong here). If your analysis of what happens after Saruman gains the ring is correct, then Sauron should treat Saruman as his worst enemy, he is one of the few people who could claim the ring and likely the only one greedy enough to do it. That makes me think that Sauron must have had some safeguards in place that could keep that from happening, because if he hadn't, he would have seen Saruman as his biggest threat and not an ally to use and discard later. Certainly bigger threat than the Hobbits and Gandalf and possibly even the elves.
That was a really fun theory! I especially liked the idea that Faramir and Eyown are at the head of a resistance against the new ring bearer! I would love to see a theory video of what would have happened if Saruman had not turned to evil and had been present at the council of Elrond and helped the fellowship on their way to destroy the ring!
Sauron still had control of the Ring Wraiths even without the Ring. With all of those years to plan then craft the ring, it doesn't seem like he would overlook your proposed "finders keepers" control of the Ring Wraiths. If that were the case, Sauron would not be passively agreeing to attack Gondor. He would have freaked the hell out and gone straight for Saruman. It is well presented, but Sauron was too passive in that scenario.
Given that both are maiar of varying ability and learnedness, and given that the ring can only be aptly wielded by sauron, not much would happen differently. Saurons goals would still be the overarching theme as it pertains to the continued darkening of middle earth. Saruman would be further corrupted, and controlled by the will of sauron via the ring. As sauron can't actually be destroyed by anything other than the potential destruction of the ring, or direct intervention by the valar or eru illuvatar, his influence would still rule. And as he is sauron, he will always be a threat to whomever seeks to lead in his place. My two cents. Great video, as always
Saruman: So yeah, I'll totally give you the Ring. Honest! It just isn't safe to move it until you destroy my -- er, OUR -- enemies. Sauron: Given your reputation for never betraying the people who count on you, I'm in. Saruman: Then we'll go to the Sammath Naur to make the handoff. You look down into the lava, and bend way, WAY over...
It seems to that the power of the One ring over the Three is underestimated. At the first forging of the One, the elves took their only fleeting chance to remove their rings. What if that was their one and only opportunity? Anyone powerfulful enough to master the One ring would have power over all the past works of the three. Even if Gandalf, Elrod, and Galadriel still had power to remove the rings and had escaped (which is debatable), all the previous works through the Three would be in the control of the Ringord. Rivendell, Lothlorian, and the diffuse deeds of Gandalf would be known and ruled. Maybe the Elves could still flee middle Earth. But, only a new war of wrath could undo the domination of the Ringlord over Middle Earth. The West would have been destroyed like Beleriand. The tale of Middle Earth would yet again move East...
If Saruman had the one ring, wouldn’t it be more difficult for Gandalf to free theoden from his possession?? Because Saruman would be stronger, destroying Rohan from inside out, meaning the fellowship would have less allies?
If the One Ring works like how Saruman expects. Brett Devereaux in his anaylsis predicts Saruman even with the Ring is vulnerable. Only Sauron truly understands the Ring. As well, the attack on the Fords of Isen happens around the time of The Uruk Hai attacking the Fellowship. So Rohan is thus provoked into war and they have more experienced, cohesive forces. Also Theoden brings 6000 to Minas Tirith, but he states he has 10,000 to call upon, just leaves behind 4,000 to protect Rohan. So that full force on Isengard when his orcs fled from 3000 in Helms Deep because they blew horns. Remember also Sauron believed Aragorn had the Ring and challenged him anyways, so yeah I don’t Saruman’s odds. That said, I think this was a great video
Great comment! The ring to Saruman is more of a weapon while the ring to Sauron is so much more. If Sarumans physical body dies and the ring endured he would not come back unlike Sauron. Because the ring is Sauron.
It surprises no one that the only way all these heroes succeed is to have nearly zero deviation from the plot points, and deep dives like this are really fun to hear how complete tolkiens story truly was
Very interesting video! Thanks! I wouldn't change anything to this "what if" :) Maybe there is a timeline that could make Saruman use his voice sooner... Convincing (corrupting?) Theoden and Rohan to join his cause. Because... Are we sure Gandalf the White would be able to free Theoden from Saruman's bewitchment if Saruman has the One Ring?
Oh man I remeber my brother in law had a sweet surrond system when we all binged LoTRs it was great, I bet Soundscape is going to be a completely different experience!
@@booksimmersed I am excited to bare witness to the newest form of Tolkien appreciation/exaggerations, ALWAYS! 😂 P.S. Thank you to any and all Soundscape team.💯✌️🙌
Could you do a theory video on the would happen if the council of Elrond chose a different option then destroying the ring. Such as bringing it to Valinor or keeping it in Rivendell.
Wonderful video, love it! Hmm... I can see Saruman turning the army sent to Isengard what with having the Ring and proximity. I am a little wobblier on the question of whether the junior Ringwraiths could turn the allegiance of the Men in the Southern army. After all, the Haradrim and Easterlings *do* worship Sauron directly, yes? I'm thinking Saruman would have to go to Minas Tirith himself in order to sway Sauron's Men into fighting the Orcs. Thoughts?
I''ve long pondered what would happen if Sam Gamgee, seeing Frodo stung&captured at the Tower of Cirth Ungol, would have claimed the Ring for himself and the Shire? A video on this someday prehaps?
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Jordan’s soundscape is pure genius! It was such an amazing experience to be involved! Thanks for sharing!
What about Tom Bombadil lol
@@CrookedRosePOD Tom Bombadil is in the Soundscape! played by Phil Dragash, some may recognize that name :) You'll hear him singing away in the distance :) and Goldberry singing :D
Jordan has done such an incredible job, I’ve been listening to the FOTR soundscape almost on a daily
Faramir meets Eowyn...got goosebumps from that.
*As much as he wanted to play Gandalf… Sir Christopher Lee was absolutely PERFECT to play Saruman. His commanding and stoic presence along with his cunning voice was just again…PERFECT casting.🙏🏼*
@Slywerk A pity, but don't forget that there is only so much you can put into a film. Alot has to be cut out sometimes and even then, things have to be mixed/changed for an audience rather than readers. Cinema's won't show films if they are too long, and DVD's can only hold so many hours.
What if it was Ian McKellen who acted SARUMAN. That's your next theory video
Christopher Lee was such a good actor he’d would have nailed Gandalf as well I reckon!
Absolutely. 100% agree 🤘
They had to build up the jealous feelings for Saruman towards Gandalf somehow to get him into character fully lol
He would buy an anti-tree defence around Isengard
Yeah, about 50 Phalanx CIWS should do it.
And lo did Saruman spray Round-Up upon the Ents of Fangorn.
@@GameAnGrogin this story, Saruman loses to Monsantos team of lawyers.
The first flame throwers on middle earth
@@GameAnGrog Lovely stuff. My dad had fun with that when they moved into their bungalow when I was a kid. He did the roundup and diesel trick, then rotavated the back garden 4 times, then dug it out 4 times, then cleared out all the scaffolding pins and other rubbish, until he found a live grenade from WW2 by the garage... We came home to a bomb disposal truck..
Never thought of it until watching this but.....boromir trying to take the ring IS what SAVED the quest.
Else, this likely WOULD have been what happened.
Yep
That's spot-on, because until this point, the Fellowship members had been debating whether to go straight to Mordor or to go to Gondor first. Boromir trying to take the ring made Frodo realize that the only hope of winning was to destroy it as soon as possible, and that he had to do it alone. Luckily, Sam was smart enough to guess that Frodo would try to sneak off, and was able to catch up to him.
There would be no Uruks from Isengard if Saruman hadn’t sent them. So no, but maybe the orcs from Mordor could’ve taken Frodo and Sam
@@kingslayer5600then Sauron would have it
Well, Galadriel did warn Frodo that all the members of the fellowship would eventually succumb to the ring and try to take it, starting with Boromir, and this when he realized he would have to go it alone, with Boromir being the big confirmation that he had no choice and had to do it immediately.
7:29
The description of the voice of Saruman perfectly shows how well cast Sir Christopher Lee was in the role. Man's voice was simply iconic.
"Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spake to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it."
Read the entire thing in his voice, can confirm.
@@OrgusDin I tried, but ended up just repeating, "To Isengard," over and bloody over!
I wonder if at some point, Faramir and Eowyn's rebels would be approached by new allies. Two blue pilgrims from the east, leading an army of alikely thinking men, seeking any form of resistance that is willing to stand up against their former leader.
Mmm... no
Apathetically this makes me think of the White Lotus from the end of ATLA
Radagast.
He fell away from his appointed path to look after nature instead, but he never fell to evil... he might get off his ass and do his actual job if Saruman managed to claim the ring. Especially with how much Sarumans likely push towards indstrialization would harm the nature he loved so much. This is a scenario that really seems likely to spur him into action, and Saruman is likely to underestimate his potential. Radagast rallying the natural world to fight Saruman would also be a tactic he'd be unlikely to anticipate, giving a necessary advantage to the resistance- they'd need everything they could get with Saurman having the ring.
Finding someone strong enough to toss the ring into Mt Doom would be a challenge. Maybe they could talk Bombadil into doing it? He wouldn't take it seriously enough to be a good long term custodian, but talking him into a trip to Mordor might be feasible.
The Blue Wizards may well get involved, but there's not enough information on them to really predict what they might do. Could be anything from swearing fealty to the new dark lord to immediately throwing down with the full measure of their power, rules of engagement calling for a support role be damned.
Yeah it seems like at the epilogue Iluvatar would have realized His miscalculation and send Tulkas instead.
Tulkas: Olorin, you had ONE job!
I want a story-heavy, open world, LOTR game where these scenarios are possible based on player interactions and choices.
Tom be real, you would never leave the Old Forest. You would miss, Goldberry.
Have you looked into the Kingdoms of Arda mod for Mount and Blade 2? Still very much in development but it looks to become exactly what you're looking for.
I would encourage you to check out Divide and Conquer, a mod for Medieval II Total War. It’s a complete and total conversion mod that turns the entire game into Lord of the Rings in The Third Age, and one of my favorite moments is Isengard when you get the Ring and Saruman becomes the Lord of the Ring.
@Hidetaka Miyazaki hear tom's words and make the magic part of this world!
@@filiperiksson3259 It's just not the same. If you could play a first person game, fighting massive armies, going through Middle Earth, that would be incredible.
You should do a theory video on what if Sam insisted on bringing Bill the Pony the whole way? How far could they have realistically made it bringing a pony everywhere?
LMFAO surely the balrog would cower in fear against the trusted steed Bill
-We're going to Mordor alone, Bill!
-Of course you are, Mr Frodo and Mr Sam, and I'm coming with you!
*Wades into the water*
@@Gurrehable Maybe the water was only 4 feet deep
Finally someone's asking the important questions here.
He survived dude he's in the scaring of the shire.
For some reason, I hate Saruman more than any other LOTR villain. I think what I hate the most about him is how he always puts himself above everybody else. I've always hated characters and people who do this. They really couldn't cast anyone else, but Christopher Lee (RIP). This man had a perfect signature look of superiority.
My issue with him is the blatant, unapologetic manipulation. I despise manipulators.
Cutting out Saruman's death scene was criminal. There's an interview with Christopher Lee where he corrects Peter Jackson on how he should react to being stabbed by Grima. The dude was one of a kind.
Selfishness and jelousy are hideous.
The effort that went into this video & theory story is just next level. You’re the best man
Thanks so much! And thanks for watching and subscribing!
ua-cam.com/video/Sx9WtEYqt_o/v-deo.html
Short version: Saruman gets the Ring, and Middle-Earth becomes New Jersey :(
As a lifetime NJ resident, I approve this
Or Area 51
I would love to see you do a video answering “what if Saruman came down?” In the Voice of Saruman in the books, Gandalf offers him the chance to redeem himself and help them one last time. What might have happened had he repented and joined our heroes?
Well, Saruman would not have trashed the Shire, so the Hobbits would not be coming home to a big mess. As for the rest, since the Fellowship & Frodo won their battles without Saruman, I supposed having him on their side probably would not have created a much different outcome.
"He may have rendered great service"
He might have been instrumental at the Battle of Pellenor (sic?) Fields. His voice may have bolstered the defenders of Minas Tirith against the fear instilled by the Nazgûl. Or perhaps he could have laid enchantments upon mumaks or felbeasts. Many that would have died might have lived. It would not change the outcome of the war, but an extra wizard would have changed many lives.
My two cents.
@@lysander3262I lean more towards the "great service" consisting of Saruman telling them what he knew. His staff was broken, so I doubt he would have any instrumental role in the rest of the story. His soul may have been redeemed in the end though
@@chrissnyder8108Or he would have tried to betray them to get the ring and would have fucked up the final battle of the black Gate.
He would have his telepathic ability greatly increased. In this way, he would control the Nazgûl (Unfinished Tales version), the Orcs, Trolls, Wargs and other evil creatures in the Misty Mountains.
If Sauron didn't attack soon (logistically impossible with the existence of Gondor), he would be outmatched and overthrown. I imagine that this way Saruman would have two strong domains in the end: Isengard and Mordor.
Sauron had armies arranged along a very long front. He had both the forces and the geography to send an army into Rohan from the north either from the Black Gate or from Dol Guldur.
@@istari0 You're right, this theory ignores the substantial armies of Dol Guldur.
Don't think he can overthrow sauron. Only the good can.
@@7yep4336dfgvvh Sauro and Saruman are both Maiars. More or less equal in power. There is no reason Saruman wouldn't be able to overthrow Sauron if he was wielding the One Ring.
Theoretically, I'm sure that Saruman would be able to turn his might to Subjugating or expelling the portion of Sauron's soul within the ring.@@groerhahn225
Okay, now I want more of this Faramir & Eowyn alternate universe!
Sammeeee
Excellent theory. It sounds almost like Saruman obtaining the ring and taking over Middle Earth would be akin to Tolkien's worst industrialization nightmare
This has no place in The Lord of the Rings "Tolkien's worst industrialization nightmare" Why would you mix them together?
@andreasjensen3853 the desecration of nature for the sake of industrialisation is a very prominent motif in Lotr tho so it's not at all far-fetched
@@yw9113 Have you ever read what Tolkien wrote about people drawing parallels to the real world and his work? He hated it.
@andreasjensen3853 Tolkien might've disliked allegory but Lotr is quite obviously allegorical. Tolkien freely admitted so himself in his letters
And the industrialisation and deforestation of Isengard are in no subtle way depicted as evil
@@yw9113 Yeah obviously people can put more meaning into words than what they were meant to at the time they were written. "I think the text is a metaphor for bl bla bla" is straight out wrong if the writer mentions the fact that is NOT a metaphor for anything. He admitted that the LOTR trilogy was allegorical? Please give the source for that. In my copy of the first book it clearly states that it is not meant to give a secondary meaning.
I love how this video is structured, laying groundwork from the cannon before turning to theory. The epilogue was fantastic
*Seeing Sir Christopher Lee with that kind of power boost would be absolutely EPIC!👏🏼*
Would near real life levels of Christopher Lee awesomeness
What if Gollum killed Sam and Frodo in their sleep?
What if Eomer took the ring?
What if Borimir took the ring?
What if Azog took the lonely mountain? And how would that effect the war if the ring?
What if the balrog killed the fellowship?
What if Saruman won helms deep?
What if the gaffer obtained possession of the Ring?
What if thranduil took the ring from bilbo when imprisoned in Mirkwood?
What if frodo lost the ring during the journey
What if there was second breakfast?
What if Isildur had destroyed the one ring ?
Saruman was one of the most interesting characters in the book, the Voice is especially a fascinating concept. Imagine going to Saruman and even from a distance you hear a musical voice and feel your heart lifted, you want to sit down and listen forever not turning into an automaton you still have your faculties but just completely charmed and beguiled. Imagine the power of that. The Sirens from Greek mythology would be an analogy.
Oooh now this is a possibility I never considered! Loved your previous what if installments, theyre like an extra special event.
If you dont mind me throwing out my own suggestion: What if Isildur survived Gladden Fields? Meaning that his company still gets ambushed, sons killed and stll loses the ring, but doesnt get felled by arrows?
would much have been different really?
I wonder what would've happened if during the Nirnaeth Arnoenidad the evil men hadn't been evil and betrayed their allies, would the alliance have won and what wod the landscape look like afterward?
To be fair, losing the Ring is WHY he got felled by arrows. He put on the Ring and dove into the water to try to escape, but the Ring did what the Ring likes to do and abandoned him, leaving him exposed.
I absolutely LOVE how the battle of Isengard mirrors the battle of Pelennor fields, in which the losing forces defending a fortress are saved by an emerging army. Even better, it also mirrors the battle of Five Armies, in the sense that the giant eagles save the day. Just that it isn't eagles but fellbeasts, and the day isn't saved.
It's quite impressive how you manage to both stay as close to the lore and the spirit of Tolkien as possible while also coming up with an interesting scenario. Amazon Studios should have hired you as a writer, really.
I'm not sure how powerful he would be, but he would definitely be more powerful than he already was
I was always under the impression that only Sauron can use the rings power properly, and that it is always seeking to reunite with him. I've always believed that any scenario that involves someone claiming the ring for themself is ultimately serving Sauron's end. It will inevitably return to him.
Supposedly according to Tolkein that doesn't apply if the ring is claimed by a Maia, who could claim the ring to such a degree that it results in the same outcome for Sauron as if the ring were destroyed. Though the evil in the ring would still dominate the Maia that claimed it.
@@theoncomingstorm7903 What did he specifically say? Because Saruman doesn't have the full power of a Maia
One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. @@Jim-pq9pm
I think so as well, but this way the video is more interesting, portraying an unlikely yet still possible scenario.
@@Jim-pq9pmGandalf also doesn't have the full power yet Tolkien believed that it was more than possible scenario if he claims the One Ring
I think it would have been possible for Saruman to get the ring earlier than he did. If Gandalf had decided to go to the shire instead of listening to Radagast, then Gandalf wouldn't have known of his treachery, and they might have taken the ring to Saruman willingly. That has always been one of my big "what ifs". Gandalf even said that if he'd known about the ring wraiths being abroad, he never would have listened to Radagast, he would have gone straight to the Shire and left right away, missing out on a lot of the members of the Fellowship along the way.
Interesting theory but it’s missing one major player: Manwe.
Yes the Valar have an annoying tendency to not get involved, but if things get bad enough they have eventually used their might to defeat Morgoth’s forces in the past.
Sending the Istari was Plan A, as it ideally would allow the free peoples to resist Sauron on their own, and sending back a “powered up” Gandalf after he proved he would not be corrupted by it was further evidence of Manwe’s care for the survival of the free people’s. In the books, that was enough, but had the ring come up Sauron it Saruman, I fully believe the Valar would have intervened directly.
Great video!
but how would Gandalf free King Théoden from Saruman's control if Saruman possesses The One Ring and his power over King Théoden at its fullest ?
True !!!
Nice notice, so true bro
so true man , good comment
What do you think of the theory? Anything you'd change? Did I forget something? Let me know!
Wait, wouldn't Soldier's from Rivendel and lorien Form Alliance with the Rohirrims and Ents
Here is the deal: The One Ring will keep magic and prevent the Decay of Middle Earth, albeit in a quite cruel way. After all, the valar left the race of men to its own devices, almost alone.
How can Gandalf cure Theodan with Sauroman’s power amplified?
I loved tour theory and storytelling as always, Matt!
As for changes: I think after claiming the ring and defeating Gandalf, Saruman wouldn't send the Nazgul to Minas Tirith. He would instead let the war play out longer, in order to weaken all other major powers.
He would eventually side with Men, as you point out, but he would wait to see the results of the battle. If Gondor resisted, he would send an emissary (not the Nazgul, as they would be hidden or spying on the elves for now) and propose an "alliance" to defeat the remaining foes of Gondor, wich would actually enslave Denethor to his will, as he did before with Theoden.
If the invading armies won, in the other hand, he would go through the same plan over a longer period, pitching men against orcs. The rest would go just as you said.
I'd add that Fangorn would be absolutely put to ruins, and given to the Men under Saruman's control right away.
Also, I'm very curious on how the three remaining wizards would react to this scenario. Radagast would likely be the first to confront him, and lose.
@@electroskylightgaming4085 The Three Elven Rings were intended to help prevent decay, not the One. It's purpose was to allow Sauron to dominate the wearers of the other Rings of Power.
The artists who lend their art to these videos are nothing short of incredible, Christopher Lee's likeness is completely spot on.
I love these theory videos! Just finished yet another read through of LOTR and wanted to add these to your list in case you didn’t have enough awesome content ideas in the pipeline 😅
- What if Sam takes the ring
- What if Faramir takes the ring
- What if Aragon takes the ring
- What if Boromir takes the ring
Loving these theory videos. In the Balrog video you mention how it's possible the Balrog of Moria might act as an ally to Sauron and it would be awesome to see a theory video considering what effect a more active Balrog would have on middle earth.
I think I’m starting to get dangerous ideas, though I will ask my aunt about it as the dangerous idea is something pretty large. What if Chort got the one ring? To boil this character down she’s from a completely different series or rather her personality goes back to 1956, then tweaked 62 years later.
I don't think the process of mastering the ring would be so trivial as Saruman deciding to be its master. I think it would be a process that would take time to fight for its control. While Saruman is a powerful Wizard he is not as powerful as a Maia and is weakened compared to his Maia form.
great vid! it clearly shows alot of time and research put in!
On other hand, Saruman was preparing for centuries to claim the ring. If someone could master the ring in a short notice, I'd say it would be him.
@@Cerylion Its interesting to look how much Saruman prepared and how all of his preparations still lead to failure. I think Saruman is a great example of how preparation by your self in isolation isnt very useful. “No plan survives first contact with the enemy.” He has no real allies or friends to help him and does not truly test his plans against adversity. In his arrogance he sees his plans as flawless.
Saurman prepares an army and weakens Rohan, yet its clear both in the books he does not actually have good battle strategy (this is seen in lotr and expressly state by Hammond and scull and discussed in a PPP episode.
He sets himself up in a great position to find the ring, and yet fails to find it.
He is the leader of the white council yet Gandalf is really the one that ends up directing the councils actions.
While I agree that Saruman is one of the few who could master the ring, his knowledge is purely academic and not practical like Gandalf or Galadriel who wield rings of power and have been in the presence of the one.
I always thought Saruman was never interested in using The Ring except to advance his knowledge in order to craft his own ring.
Wrong. If anything, Saruman's intentions were the exact opposite: he experimented with creating his own rings SOLELY BECAUSE he didn't possess (but very badly lusted after) the One Ring himself.
Although both beings were Maiar, Sauron was far, far greater & more powerful than Saruman; and Sauron's One Ring was far, far more powerful than anything Saruman could have ever made.
Yeah, plus the one ring adds to sarumans power. If he made his own ring he'd just gimp himself like Sauron did
@Gilliganfrog Tolkien himself said that if Saruman had been able to fill the gaps in his Ring-lore he would have been able to forge a Great Ring of his own and challenge the bearer of the One.
Interesting choices for Saruman's actions! I would have never figured what would have happened if he had hidden that he had found the ring from Sauron! Thanks for this interesting "what if"! 😎🤘☮
So basically he turns it into Birmingham
Tolkein would have agreed with you. He was not fond of the industrialization of England.
Amazing video,huge fan. compelling and perfectly reasonable within the lore and universe, but that epilogue... you have to do a follow-up 'what if' about that, the whole idea of their meeting would make for a great tale!
I get so happy whenever I see this channel's notification ❤ keep the good work man, great job!!!
21:10 the Viking Eowyn is the coolest Middle-Earth art I have ever seen! A true shield-maiden!
That epilogue gave me goosebumps! I need more of that!
The Blue Wizards return from the East with armies of dwarves and Easterlings to destroy Saruman.
That epilogue was just perfect!
These type of videos are some of the best. would love to see the "Got the one ring" series expand. for example what if Elrond got the ring or Legolas
"...and Debbie"
just kills me every time 😂😂
Nice theory, and hoping to see more ’what if’s’. And clearly in these ones about claming the ring, the True victor is ”The One”…
Loved the video, man. Such a great take! One of the most interesting "what if" moments on the whole timeline for me is what if the Balrogs would have been too late and shelob had consumed the silmarils and Morgoth. Instead of a main antagonist who is cunning and bides their time the free peoples would have had to face one that was more instinct and hunger-driven
Ungoliant, you mean.
dude you are amazing. Never stop with the content. Absolutely amazing
I feel like the Valar would be force to intervene at this point. After all they sent Saruman to middle earth in the first place. I think they would have unlocked all of Gandalf’s power as a Maiar. Putting him on even footing to a white wizard wielding the ring.
If that happens he will be more powerful than any jedi.
With the description we get from Tolkein you cited in this video, Christopher Lee was such a perfect choice for Saruman. RIP.
Really excellent stuff. Congrats on almost hitting 1 mil!!
10:37, I feel like at this point the Elves would also have to step in. Mirkwood and Loth Lorien might not be able due to orc incursions but Rivendell would have to participate.
No idea if you'll see a comment on a video this old, but I have been rereading LotR and came across a part that I think would make for an interesting "what if" theory. Near the end of Fellowship, Aragorn discusses what the Fellowship should do. He acknowledges Boromir will go to Minas Tirith, suggest Merry and Pippin should do the same, doesn't comment on Legolas, and volunteers the rest, including him, to go to Mordor with Frodo. What if the orc attack didn't happen, Boromir did not die, the hobbits didn't get captured, and the fellowship did end up splitting apart the way Aragorn suggested?
It's an interesting and hugely significant change to the story. The actions of Aragorn and his followers almost single handedly prevent both Rohan and Gondor from being destroyed. One also wonders what Gandalf would do had he not rejoined him.
I absolutely love your What If‘s!
It would be very interesting to see a „What if Faramir got the One Ring“.
Everybody's gangster until Bombadil hears you've been tearing up trees.
Awesome video. This theory took a dark turn, fitting considering that it's about Saruman. Keep up the great work
Sarauman becomes basically Sauron himself with similar motivations, but slightly different as well. Sauron wants to control people to benefit people according to his evil philosophy which leads to him being autocratic, Saruman wants to resources more than people, but he Saruman also wants to control people, but Saruman likely kills off many more people than Sauron in the end because he craves gold and jewels more.
Well, they are both (former) servants of Aulë, and suffer the same controllingly-ambitious weaknesses of character. Makes sense they'd take ME in relatively the same direction.
Sauron would not have fallen as long as the One Ring exists; only when destroyed would he be crippled since much of his power was made into the ring. Similarly, as long as that power exists, Sauron remains as he was/is without the ring. That is clearly stated in the LoTR books.
You brought up a fascinating logical problem with the Nazgul. No doubt many others have asked this, but it's worth asking here for sure. Saruman said that if he held the One Ring, then the Nazgul would call him "Lord." Do the Nazgul obey Sauron, or whoever holds the Ring?
One interpretation is that they obey Sauron because Sauron "holds" the Nine Rings. They are enslaved by their rings, he holds them, so they obey him.
Another interpretation is that things DID work that way UNTIL Sauron created the One Ring to rule all others, after which point they obeyed whoever held the One Ring. Which brings up the problem of why they continued to obey Sauron when he no longer held it -- which was for most of their existence.
When the Witch-King ruled Angmar in the Third Age, was he obeying Sauron, or was he doing his own thing and enjoying being a deathless evil badass?
This is important as a plot hole in the Lord of the Rings story, because if the Nazgul ultimately obeyed whoever held the Ring, then they were emphatically NOT the right servants to send after it. If the Ring was claimed by an enemy of Sauron who was strong enough to wield it, Sauron would want the Nazgul far away from that person, otherwise it's just shortening the time before that new owner gathers the Nazgul and starts to command them. Raising more wights in the Barrow-downs for himself and whatever. In the context of your video, I'd think Sauron would never want the Nazgul to go anywhere near Orthanc.
Any thoughts on which way this goes? Because there are big issues with each interpretation.
Thanks for all your video thoughts!
''With both Rohan and Gondor welcoming an ally at their northern border'', mmm that aged well for them...😅
This is a lot better than the 'What if Gandalf took the One Ring' video (in which Gandalf, supposedly the wisest of the Maiar, ultimately has a brainfart and actually decides to invade Valinor).
The main problem with this new theory is whether Gandalf would any longer be able to break the spell of a now Ring-wielding Saruman and cure Théoden. Added to that is the very dubious notion that Théoden would then simply agree to attack Isengard.
The other idea I'm having difficulty accepting as possible or credible is that Sauron could be persuaded to suddenly launch an attack on Minas Tirith. I don't understand this notion of Saruman pretending to simply possess the Ring for a bit rather than wielding it while also promising to hand it over to Sauron. Saruman would not try this on as Sauron was obviously never going to believe it. Sauron would instead focus entirely on getting the Ring back rather than playing any of Saruman's games. He would immediately send the Nazgûl for the Ring before Saruman could master it (just as he told Pippin in the palantír, when Sauron actually thought Saruman had the Ring). But that raises the question as to whether the Nazgûl would simply switch their allegiance to a RIng-wielding Saruman. Could Sauron have possibly hoped to get the Ring back in this or any other way, if Saruman had got his hands on it? In any case, even if the Nazgûl couldn't take the Ring off Saruman and hand it over to its maker, Sauron would launch all his armies on an assault on Isengard to get the Ring back. He wouldn't even bother with Gondor.
And one other thing: why in this video does it suppose, if Saruman had the Ring, that Sauron could never again take bodily form? He already had - as was stated in a previous video: 'What if Sauron had got the One Ring'. And why would Saruman have no need for orcs? He'd spent decades breeding his own Uruk-hai, after all - would he have no need of those? Wouldn't it have been better for the Nazgûl to take command of the orcs besieging MInas Tirith to help in Saruman's conquest of MIddle-earth? Unlike Sauron, he wouldn't be able to rely on the support of the Easterlings and Southrons (who Sauron had spent centuries winning over), but Saruman through the Nazgûl would be able to control the orcs, whose only allegiance was to a dominant will. A Ring-wielding Saruman would be that dominant will - surpassing that the hold that Sauron had over the orcs.
Fantastic video as always! I absolutely adore these types of videos from you. I know you generally shy away from theory videos as you don’t want to become purely that, but I certainly wish you would do them a bit more often!
One quick question, is it really so simple to just “claim” the ring? How do you go about doing that when it’s current master is Sauron? Do you have to hold more power than Sauron and convince the ring you would be a better master? Okay sorry, that was more than one. I got carried away haha.
All of the Istari; the wizards, arrived to Middle Earth via the Grey Havens. Why did Cirdan the Shipwright not give Narya to Saruman? But instead gave it to Gandalf? Was it a fore-telling? An intuition?
The one thing I note is that I suspect that the elves would flee middle earth when an enemy took the ring whether that enemy was Sauron or Sauruman.
While Lothlorien and Rinvendell may fall I suspect they would both be near empty before they fall. Perhaps a rearguard would remain but Elven kind would have fled to the havens.
Here's an idea. What if Gollum didn't fall once he got the ring from Frodo, and instead escaped the mountain?
Or for that matter, if he simply stole it back at some point during the journey not like he didn't have ample chances.
I think Nazguls/Orcs would have caugh him on day or another, Gollum was too weak even with the One Ring
I'm usually not fond of theory videos, but this one was really well done.
That epilogue is such a tease, now I want this alternate timeline to exist
The only problem with this theory is that Sauron would have never trusted Saruman with the ring. He would have attacked Isengard immediately and razed Isengard.
I love when these videos pop up! 😊
I have to ask
Why did after Saruman was discovered to be with Sauron, after he turned away from the valar did he not utilise his true nature as a Maiar spirit (the same type of being as Sauron)
Why did he remain limited within his wizard form as I know they suppressed themselves and chose subtler forms as advisors. Surely in his new role as wannabe conqueror and challenger to both nation and Sauron another maiar (one weakened by his spirit being poured into the ring) he’d use his full power?
Good question: the reason is because while Saruman and Gandalf were both some of the most powerful Maia they were essentially given parental locks by the Valar. They couldn’t use 100% of their power in fact my guess was they were only able to access maybe 10% if that of their natural capabilities. This was to ensure they wouldn’t cause havoc like what happen at the end of the first age with the Valar sinking half the continent. Gandalf once he was resurrected did gain access to more of his natural abilities which is why he was stronger than Saruman after coming back. Gandalf did not get stronger he was just unburdened by some of his previous limitations originally placed on him.
Now Sauron didn’t have any limitations placed on him by the Valar so he was free to use 100% of his natural innate powers. And given the fact he was the second strongest Maia to exist this meant none of the wizards to oppose him openly. The only limitations Sauron had were the ring of course and his spiritual power weakening due to the fact he had used so much of it in pursuit of physical things. Much like the diminishment of melkor.
Have you ever done a video about the Silmarills and their making, powers and histories? That would be most welcome! Thanks for your vids, I'm a new subscriber of your videos and they are amazing!
Excellent theory. Also, that in Gandalf's corpse, Saruman finds Narya the Great. Imagine the fire power, literally, he gains. The rest of the Elves and Dwarfs stand no chance.
The soundscape sounds amazing
I like to think so! :D
This is a very thoughtful imagining, I think. It makes sense that Saruman would seek to manipulate Denethor instead of trying to defeat Gondor militarily at that point - even in canon, he tries to persuade Theoden to make peace. The fact that his voice also brings together men of the east and west against the orcs - though obviously not for benign reasons - is an interesting twist. I can even see how Saruman's powers of persuasion, enhanced by the ring, might lead men of Gondor to turn on the elves; it wouldn't necessarily need to be about dominating their wills so much as exploiting the fact that they would probably see them as recluses who contributed nothing to their defense since the War of the Last Alliance. Those ties aren't as strong as they used to be, and you can see the seeds of a sentiment like that in Boromir at the Council of Elrond when he says it's only because of Gondor that their lands are kept safe.
Loved the epilogue, by the way. I was wondering how those two figured into things! It feels right.
Nice theory. I would differ in one point: A powerful ring bearer like Saruman would not need to come in proximity to the Nazgul. They would serve him the instance he claims the Ring. Regardless of where they are at the time.
These are my favorite types of vids, excited to watch
This is amazing, and the epilogue gave me ABSOLUTE GOOSE BUMPS!!!
Great video, but I have some questions. In your hypothetical story, when Saruman gets the ring and claims it for himself, Sauron is basically finished. He looses the Nazgul and his physical form and is basically defeated. If that is the case, why does he ever treat him as an ally and help him get the ring to Isengard? I know Sauron never really considered anyone trying to destroy the ring in mount Doom, because he could not understand why would anyone try to destroy it instead of use it for themselves. In that case, he should have well understood that Saruman would very likely try to claim the ring which basically spells doom for him, yet he allies himself with him and sends orcs to escort the ring to Isengard (correct me if I am wrong here). If your analysis of what happens after Saruman gains the ring is correct, then Sauron should treat Saruman as his worst enemy, he is one of the few people who could claim the ring and likely the only one greedy enough to do it.
That makes me think that Sauron must have had some safeguards in place that could keep that from happening, because if he hadn't, he would have seen Saruman as his biggest threat and not an ally to use and discard later. Certainly bigger threat than the Hobbits and Gandalf and possibly even the elves.
That was a really fun theory! I especially liked the idea that Faramir and Eyown are at the head of a resistance against the new ring bearer!
I would love to see a theory video of what would have happened if Saruman had not turned to evil and had been present at the council of Elrond and helped the fellowship on their way to destroy the ring!
Sauron still had control of the Ring Wraiths even without the Ring. With all of those years to plan then craft the ring, it doesn't seem like he would overlook your proposed "finders keepers" control of the Ring Wraiths. If that were the case, Sauron would not be passively agreeing to attack Gondor. He would have freaked the hell out and gone straight for Saruman. It is well presented, but Sauron was too passive in that scenario.
Ooo man I may have to get this soundscape and start my read through of the Serkis audiobooks over lol
Many others have done the same! Syncing is very easy and well worth it! :D
Given that both are maiar of varying ability and learnedness, and given that the ring can only be aptly wielded by sauron, not much would happen differently. Saurons goals would still be the overarching theme as it pertains to the continued darkening of middle earth. Saruman would be further corrupted, and controlled by the will of sauron via the ring.
As sauron can't actually be destroyed by anything other than the potential destruction of the ring, or direct intervention by the valar or eru illuvatar, his influence would still rule. And as he is sauron, he will always be a threat to whomever seeks to lead in his place.
My two cents.
Great video, as always
Saruman: So yeah, I'll totally give you the Ring. Honest! It just isn't safe to move it until you destroy my -- er, OUR -- enemies.
Sauron: Given your reputation for never betraying the people who count on you, I'm in.
Saruman: Then we'll go to the Sammath Naur to make the handoff. You look down into the lava, and bend way, WAY over...
Your videos are badass dude, you're the bomb!
Making my way through your vids and loving them. Would be interested in what the inverse of this would be: What if Saruman remained uncorrupted?
It seems to that the power of the One ring over the Three is underestimated.
At the first forging of the One, the elves took their only fleeting chance to remove their rings. What if that was their one and only opportunity?
Anyone powerfulful enough to master the One ring would have power over all the past works of the three.
Even if Gandalf, Elrod, and Galadriel still had power to remove the rings and had escaped (which is debatable), all the previous works through the Three would be in the control of the Ringord.
Rivendell, Lothlorian, and the diffuse deeds of Gandalf would be known and ruled.
Maybe the Elves could still flee middle Earth.
But, only a new war of wrath could undo the domination of the Ringlord over Middle Earth.
The West would have been destroyed like Beleriand.
The tale of Middle Earth would yet again move East...
I like the continuation of this theory, most especially Faramir and Eowyn resistance against Saruman.
Wow, just wow!!! 🤯 Watching this is like reading a "Choose Your Own Adventure," except way better because it's Tolkien and You!!! ❤⚔️
This is my favourite 'what if' so far
If Saruman had the one ring, wouldn’t it be more difficult for Gandalf to free theoden from his possession?? Because Saruman would be stronger, destroying Rohan from inside out, meaning the fellowship would have less allies?
Hey Matt!
Is there a way to play the soundscape on my phone simultaneously with the audiobook? Or is this intended for PC/MacBook only?
If the One Ring works like how Saruman expects. Brett Devereaux in his anaylsis predicts Saruman even with the Ring is vulnerable. Only Sauron truly understands the Ring. As well, the attack on the Fords of Isen happens around the time of The Uruk Hai attacking the Fellowship. So Rohan is thus provoked into war and they have more experienced, cohesive forces.
Also Theoden brings 6000 to Minas Tirith, but he states he has 10,000 to call upon, just leaves behind 4,000 to protect Rohan. So that full force on Isengard when his orcs fled from 3000 in Helms Deep because they blew horns.
Remember also Sauron believed Aragorn had the Ring and challenged him anyways, so yeah I don’t Saruman’s odds. That said, I think this was a great video
Great comment! The ring to Saruman is more of a weapon while the ring to Sauron is so much more. If Sarumans physical body dies and the ring endured he would not come back unlike Sauron. Because the ring is Sauron.
10 seconds in and I’m pumped for this one 👍🏼
dude, 10 seconds in he was still doing the ad read
It surprises no one that the only way all these heroes succeed is to have nearly zero deviation from the plot points, and deep dives like this are really fun to hear how complete tolkiens story truly was
Very interesting video! Thanks!
I wouldn't change anything to this "what if" :)
Maybe there is a timeline that could make Saruman use his voice sooner... Convincing (corrupting?) Theoden and Rohan to join his cause. Because... Are we sure Gandalf the White would be able to free Theoden from Saruman's bewitchment if Saruman has the One Ring?
The idea of Middle Earth going through an industrial revolution is awesome.
Reminds me of that old Troika game, Arcanum.
Oh man I remeber my brother in law had a sweet surrond system when we all binged LoTRs it was great, I bet Soundscape is going to be a completely different experience!
Hearing it through a surround system is quite the experience!!
@@booksimmersed I am excited to bare witness to the newest form of Tolkien appreciation/exaggerations, ALWAYS! 😂
P.S. Thank you to any and all Soundscape team.💯✌️🙌
Could you do a theory video on the would happen if the council of Elrond chose a different option then destroying the ring. Such as bringing it to Valinor or keeping it in Rivendell.
Wonderful video, love it! Hmm... I can see Saruman turning the army sent to Isengard what with having the Ring and proximity. I am a little wobblier on the question of whether the junior Ringwraiths could turn the allegiance of the Men in the Southern army. After all, the Haradrim and Easterlings *do* worship Sauron directly, yes? I'm thinking Saruman would have to go to Minas Tirith himself in order to sway Sauron's Men into fighting the Orcs. Thoughts?
I''ve long pondered what would happen if Sam Gamgee, seeing Frodo stung&captured at the Tower of Cirth Ungol, would have claimed the Ring for himself and the Shire? A video on this someday prehaps?
since Saruman is the new Sauron (melkor?!) maybe the valar can deal with him like they did with Melkor(Morgoth)!?