John Sheppard is my grandfather, I'm one of the grandchildren he mentions at 54:28 😊 We are all appreciative of this documentary immortalising his legacy.
I stopped watching Bathurst when production cars stopped racing. Don't get me wrong supercars are awesome bits of gear but just not as exciting as seeing production cars race. I have this doco at home.
I think a lot did the same anyone can drive a purpose built car around Bathurst fast . doing it in a road /race car is a art not many got right brock did it easy
Brock's face lit with joy ad pride recalling his name being painted onto the guard. A treasured memory for him after many years. What a special man he was and what a special time. It was watching him win the Nissan Mobil 500 at Wellington that ignited my interest in motorsport. Thanks for the memories!
I can still remember the first time I saw a blue meanie on holiday in Whitianga in 1986. I kneeled down to get a good look at Brocks signature on the side. It was an awesome sight to behold.
RIP Peter Brock. This goes to show it's the people that made the team and the brand, not the corporates. The world is poorer because corporate greed always wins over people. We'll always remember the Golden age!!!
If it wasn't for those corporates you wouldn't have a lot of the racing because they're the ones pumping money into the teams to keep them together feeding their familys rather getting a regular job.
@@Toyotas_n__Tools you obviously have not payed attention to what was presented in this documentary and have very little knowledge of motorsports history in Australia
I have watched EVERY Bathurst since 1969, I was 11, never missed one, for me it was incredible it was a great year as mankind walked on the moon for the first time!! and I, along with millions watched it, and Brocky, well what can I say, he was a GOD!!!!
7:52 "There's this long hair bastard...." 🤣🤣 This Harry Firth fella reminds me of Kevin Sheedy of the Essendon Footy club! The way he talks about motor racing. Then hearing Pete talk about his first impressions of the Holden Dealer Team makes my heart feel like it's gonna jump out of my chest!!! I was born in late '91 so this was long before my time but wow what an absolute "Golden Era" it must've been back then!! R.I.P Peter Brock & Harry Firth!!! Long live Holden!!!
Great doco. What an iconic brand Holden, and HDT was. One day the Holden name will be resurrected and it goes without saying that there's a rich history to tap into
I grew up with this.... as a fantastic, phenomenal, experience. had the opportunity to drive this track when i was older driving an XU 1 !! we use to camp out on the big hill at Bathurst as kids with the family having a barby and sleeping in tents just epic....THERE needs to be a film made from this legendary time in history , with its icons and legends for us Aussies and the rest of the world to understand a culture and lifestyle of millions.....viewed on the big screen If they can make a film about the worlds fastest Indian then this deserves the attention of predominant film makers...trying to find the cars could be an issue but it needs to be done !!!!!!!!!!!!! Rant out ... thanks for sharing Rift dude made my weekend ,,,,,,,,
loved that movie the worlds fastest indian showed more of the backstory and what actually happened with the guy leading upto shipping the bike out to the states and all the pain and moments along the way
I used to admire Peter brock so much growing up. He pretty much made Holden popular amongst many people in my generation. Holden without Peter brock is like ford without Allan Moffat. Both guys were great legends and they will never be matched for what they did.
I am Not a die hard Holden Fan or Ford Fan. ( i have owned both brands ) But when i watch this video. It makes a little sad to see the end of Holden in Australia. The people who put Holden on the map, must be turning over in there graves now. It,s already bad enough seeing all the Australian companies moving off shore. But with the announcement of the end of Holden as a company it really hits home knowing major Australian industries are pretty much finished now. Luckily the small to medium businesses are growing in strength. Which is good. As it has a way of sharing the wealth so to speak.
Thank you most sincerely to the producers who must have spent quite a lot of time de-interlacing all the hideous old video coverage, so that it's actually watchable on modern 200Hz high resolution progressive screens. You've done the best possible job with the footage.
1:00:03 - "poofteenth"; it's a unit of measurement that doesn't get used enough any more. fortunate enough to have an SS Torana of my own. Wonderful doco, thanks for uploading
grew up watching brocky sandown melb & owned 2 LH toranas wish i still had my sporty SL i modified the suspension handled like a race car around corner stuck to it
Late 70’s Toranas they are gorgeous cars the Hardtop Falcon coupe as well even more beautiful and that black & gold 635 BMW ain’t no Bemmer fan but far that’s a hot looking BMW Lowered with BBS and rolling bars ... Brock is sure legendary very Aussie “no need change anything in the car I will win the race as it’s is “ lol 👏🏼👏🏼
Great days, was there for all of them (TV at home of course). Best was getting up at 6 in the morning in the 1960s/early 70s as a kid for the big day of TV! We should all be thankful that Channel 7 and the ABC did cover all those ATCC events back in the day, one of the few countries in the world that did.
Pointing a finger at harry when you have energy polarizer for the sake of nothing but money. Rest in peace brocky BUT you were not so pristine yourself.
How well did peter explain the throttle opening of the carburettors that it worked well at low speeds and flat opened but not half throttling... it leaned out the engine and burnt holes in the pistons ..... wow
Grew up watching Brocky at local sandown melb & owned 2 LH toranas wish i still had my sporty SL i modified the suspension & it handled like a race car around corners people who didnt have a clue wud pull me over to ask wtf is under it :) i cud loose you no matter what car thru city streets you be still turning as i,m 1/2 way down the road tee hee as a v8 owner was left for dead
Folks. The value of a 2 door 1970 GMH HG Monaro in Australia now exceeds $700,000.00. Monaro is an Aboriginal word meaning rising sun. The Monaro is the car that originally raced against the legendary V8 Ford Falcon at the Bathurst 1000 at Mount Panorama during the 1970's. The Bathurst 1000 is considered to be one of the best car endurance races in the world. Take Care, David Matherson
RIP.... I hope one day there will be a new Australia Holden Car and a Holden Dealer Team, one day fighting it out at Bathurst... with Holden, or even Ford... Bathurst will not be the same....
"Race what you sold is what made" the era so good. Nowdays there is so many regs and running a 5 litre in what in sales terms of the VE type cars have 427ci engines in road form. I just don't get it. There is no comparison to anything on the street, regardless of $180,000 just for a Supercar Engine based on a 5 litre. I believe Supercars have lost the ethos of racing an equivalent of what you can buy from the pubic, and even modify as an off the showroom floor car. This what made this Torana of various types and Ford and Mechanical Sympathy sorted good drivers from average. We will never see such racing times again.
Poor Brockie would be turning in his grave with Holden now dead and buried with him. A sad time for all Australians when we realise how much and what we lost in a former way of life we once had. Thanks, John Button. You sure screwed us with your stupid removal of import tariffs to the point where we can’t manufacture anything anymore. 😡
Dutton stopped the American owners of Holden and Ford pocketing huge amounts of taxpayer money. The Australian auto industry folded because consumers tastes changed, the economies of production diminished and the owners would not allow sales of locally manufactured overseas in order to keep economies of scale high.
If they built better cars, i mean thought about it and put the technology that was as around at the time, not just a new grill and bumper they might of lasted for a bit longer too
The last commodore that Holden produced was a world class car and recognised as such by the motoring industry. Its just that GM did not see Holden as fitting into their global strategy.
i was a touring car fan trough this period i was neither a holden fan nor a ford fan i just liked fast cars but there were many times when i thought the holdens were just too fast to fast to believe that driver skills could make up
Well they were always that bit smaller than the lumbering falcons, more agile. That’s where their edge was imo. And after Moffat Bond, Ford never put big money into it.
What was the deal with Ford Sierras being allowed to race and dominate in late 80's?, they weren't even available to the public and ruined the bathurst for me.
It was in the rules then throught the motorsport world, particularly in Europe. Do some research, I can remember Moffat, Grace, Bowe, Richards all doing it. Johnson even drove all 3 of his Sierra's in the 88 race trying to win in one of them, you only see it as controversial because Brock was the only one good enough to do it and win.
they were built in Australia... Holden was told by gm to use the 1977 Opel Rekord E to save development cost, then used the Opel Senator front to accommodate the larger Holden engines. but testing showed it wasn't strong enough for Australia's poor roads so by the time is was modified it cost the same as if they started with a blank sheet...
The XU1 was based on the Holden Torana was a long way from a Vauxhall Viva everything was underneath was Holden. No the Commodore owed it’s body & Chassis design to the Rekord & Senator. The Commodore built here was a different car . Basically everything under the bonnet and the floor was Australian sourced and built. The chassis rails near the transmission tunnel were considerably stronger, all the suspension components were strengthened & upgrade. Engines & transmissions all Holden, brakes locally engineered by Repco PBR. The interior trims were locally designed. The instrument was Australian designed built by VDO in Melbourne. A lot of switches etc were Opel, the indicator stork a stock Holden part. No it wasn’t an Opel. I saw a early a 78 Opel Rekord & Senator, just not the same car. The chief engineer of the V car Chuck Chapman became the MD of Holden in 76.Peter Hanenberger who I believe was Chapman’s 2IC on the V car came to Australia in 76 I think & became Chief mechanical Engineer , his first task improving handling of the Holden Range (Radial Tuned Suspension). From then on the Commodore became more locally engineered although a lot of body designs still came from Opel. No Commodores were never Opel sourced.
a quick facts check there cowboy .. opel were gm yeah , but not holden . ford of the era were built here but used a lot of U.S bits too ... so both were sort of copies and parts bin cars . so not a pity mate , its motorsport
@@VCCOMM ok pilgrim holden based models on Opels and used chev based 6 cyl motors while scrounging Vauxhall parts ....can you see my point that Ford use's Ford parts and designs from Ford ....FORD brother one name FORD !!! lol
Beagle76 ; not sourced from Opel that’s correct. Our Commodore VB to VZ we’re certainly based on the Opel commodore and Opel Omega ( from 1988 ). Using the Opel Floor plan . Side on most people can’t tell the difference , especially from a distance.
John Sheppard is my grandfather, I'm one of the grandchildren he mentions at 54:28 😊
We are all appreciative of this documentary immortalising his legacy.
it was great being able to watch this with Peter Brock, was like he was still with us for an hour and a bit
I stopped watching Bathurst when production cars stopped racing. Don't get me wrong supercars are awesome bits of gear but just not as exciting as seeing production cars race. I have this doco at home.
Agreed. This years Bathurst was the first I’d watched since the early 90s. It was ok actually, but still very formulaic I guess is the word.
Yep
I think a lot did the same anyone can drive a purpose built car around Bathurst fast . doing it in a road /race car is a art not many got right brock did it easy
The days when Mazda were at Bathurst
No matter how many times I watch it I will never get sick of it two great Legends lost but the Legacy still lives on
Brock's face lit with joy ad pride recalling his name being painted onto the guard. A treasured memory for him after many years. What a special man he was and what a special time. It was watching him win the Nissan Mobil 500 at Wellington that ignited my interest in motorsport. Thanks for the memories!
I can still remember the first time I saw a blue meanie on holiday in Whitianga in 1986. I kneeled down to get a good look at Brocks signature on the side. It was an awesome sight to behold.
A time that will sadly never be repeated in Australia.
you never know, reckon Holden will be back..name recognition is everything and a valuable commodity.
Gm will reboot the name in badge form some day, GM has zero presence in Australia now and soon they will be hungry to change that.
Thanks for posting. Loved seeing Mount Panorama again with the dirt edges and post & wire fences. 😊
good show R.I.P Peter Brock.
RIP Peter Brock. This goes to show it's the people that made the team and the brand, not the corporates. The world is poorer because corporate greed always wins over people. We'll always remember the Golden age!!!
If it wasn't for those corporates you wouldn't have a lot of the racing because they're the ones pumping money into the teams to keep them together feeding their familys rather getting a regular job.
@@Toyotas_n__Tools you obviously have not payed attention to what was presented in this documentary and have very little knowledge of motorsports history in Australia
Thank you for sharing this great documentry! Enjoyed every minute!
I have watched EVERY Bathurst since 1969, I was 11, never missed one, for me it was incredible it was a great year as mankind walked on the moon for the first time!! and I, along with millions watched it, and Brocky, well what can I say, he was a GOD!!!!
7:52 "There's this long hair bastard...." 🤣🤣
This Harry Firth fella reminds me of Kevin Sheedy of the Essendon Footy club! The way he talks about motor racing. Then hearing Pete talk about his first impressions of the Holden Dealer Team makes my heart feel like it's gonna jump out of my chest!!! I was born in late '91 so this was long before my time but wow what an absolute "Golden Era" it must've been back then!! R.I.P Peter Brock & Harry Firth!!! Long live Holden!!!
Great doco. What an iconic brand Holden, and HDT was. One day the Holden name will be resurrected and it goes without saying that there's a rich history to tap into
Thanks for posting. R.I.P Brock and R.I.P Holden.
2 HDT legends gone but never forgotten ❤️❤️
1:00:29 how much did Brocky miss out by???... genuine Aussie bloke who left us too soon.
I grew up with this.... as a fantastic, phenomenal, experience. had the opportunity to drive this track when i was older driving an XU 1 !! we use to camp out on the big hill at Bathurst as kids with the family having a barby and sleeping in tents just epic....THERE needs to be a film made from this legendary time in history , with its icons and legends for us Aussies and the rest of the world to understand a culture and lifestyle of millions.....viewed on the big screen If they can make a film about the worlds fastest Indian then this deserves the attention of predominant film makers...trying to find the cars could be an issue but it needs to be done !!!!!!!!!!!!! Rant out ... thanks for sharing Rift dude made my weekend ,,,,,,,,
loved that movie the worlds fastest indian showed more of the backstory and what actually happened with the guy leading upto shipping the bike out to the states and all the pain and moments along the way
I used to admire Peter brock so much growing up. He pretty much made Holden popular amongst many people in my generation. Holden without Peter brock is like ford without Allan Moffat. Both guys were great legends and they will never be matched for what they did.
Thanks so much for posting this.
I am Not a die hard Holden Fan or Ford Fan.
( i have owned both brands )
But when i watch this video.
It makes a little sad to see the end of Holden in Australia.
The people who put Holden on the map, must be turning over in there graves now.
It,s already bad enough seeing all the Australian companies moving off shore.
But with the announcement of the end of Holden as a company it really hits home knowing major Australian industries are pretty much finished now.
Luckily the small to medium businesses are growing in strength.
Which is good.
As it has a way of sharing the wealth so to speak.
What do you drive since you don’t own a ford or Holden
Quality Quarantine Entertainment, cheers!
Thank you most sincerely to the producers who must have spent quite a lot of time de-interlacing all the hideous old video coverage, so that it's actually watchable on modern 200Hz high resolution progressive screens. You've done the best possible job with the footage.
Great video my brother, thanks for sharing
1:00:03 - "poofteenth"; it's a unit of measurement that doesn't get used enough any more.
fortunate enough to have an SS Torana of my own.
Wonderful doco, thanks for uploading
Yeah like a bees dick, a smidgen and a tad.
All used when very precise measurements are needed.
I have worked out what sold Harry Firth to the Holden idea. 05:05
grew up watching brocky sandown melb & owned 2 LH toranas wish i still had my sporty SL i modified the suspension handled like a race car around corner stuck to it
Late 70’s Toranas they are gorgeous cars the Hardtop Falcon coupe as well even more beautiful and that black & gold 635 BMW ain’t no Bemmer fan but far that’s a hot looking BMW Lowered with BBS and rolling bars ... Brock is sure legendary very Aussie “no need change anything in the car I will win the race as it’s is “ lol 👏🏼👏🏼
Great video
Thankyou for this I have enjoyed remembered and reminisced Thankyou again Brocky you fucking legend ❤️
Great days, was there for all of them (TV at home of course). Best was getting up at 6 in the morning in the 1960s/early 70s as a kid for the big day of TV!
We should all be thankful that Channel 7 and the ABC did cover all those ATCC events back in the day, one of the few countries in the world that did.
THANK YOU DETAIL VIDEO ON HISTORY AUSTRALIA RACING WAS BEST TIME IN AUSTRALIA
Pointing a finger at harry when you have energy polarizer for the sake of nothing but money. Rest in peace brocky BUT you were not so pristine yourself.
A great era for Australia...I had 4 Monaro"s & 3 Torana's...now I have 1 Toyota & cancer!
At 27 mins the true Aussie attitude, "how about you let me have a go" re putting a v8 in the xu1 Torana. Bloody ripper!!!
30 thumbs down? Let me guess, Ford lovers!
Yep
How well did peter explain the throttle opening of the carburettors that it worked well at low speeds and flat opened but not half throttling... it leaned out the engine and burnt holes in the pistons ..... wow
Does anyone know what year this was made
Didn't know that Dick Johson drove a Holden for the first 6 years of his career in the ATCC and that he drove for HDT in 1974
Great video!
RIP Mr Brock. I drove my first V8 super car the day that Peter Brock died in a WA road rally.
I always thought the HDT said HOT. There was no greater livery than the Marlboro Holdens. As a kid I used to draw the Torana all the time.
The advertising campaign catchcry for the GTR Toranas was:
"Torana, when you're hot you're hot"
@ 1:03.30 or so. He swerved to miss an animal. Don't do that unless you're Peter Brock.
@9:35 what is car number 106 in the background? Great footage and stoked to watch it. When Australia was a better place to be.
Jaguar D- type.
Got it all ready awesome
5:05 - Holden's initial research into airbag technology....
💯 now correct me if im wrong i reckon they were the best days of aussie motor racing.
Grew up watching Brocky at local sandown melb & owned 2 LH toranas wish i still had my sporty SL
i modified the suspension & it handled like a race car around corners people who didnt have a clue wud pull me over to ask wtf is under it :)
i cud loose you no matter what car thru city streets you be still turning as i,m 1/2 way down the road tee hee as a v8 owner was left for dead
Yeah righto 😂
Is that after you had some magic mushrooms lol.
I'm a blue oval man but to me HDT is Aussie in a cammed up nut she.That was awesome watching that with our legend's of motorsport
Folks. The value of a 2 door 1970 GMH HG Monaro in Australia now exceeds $700,000.00. Monaro is an Aboriginal word meaning rising sun. The Monaro is the car that originally raced against the legendary V8 Ford Falcon at the Bathurst 1000 at Mount Panorama during the 1970's. The Bathurst 1000 is considered to be one of the best car endurance races in the world. Take Care, David Matherson
Monaro means "high plain" in Aboriginal.
They're not 700k mate
HK are the most valuable and even those aren't 700
Of coarse they liked it - they got gifted presents leading in to Bathurst every year .
Wheels and tyres had to be upgraded they were dangerously inadequate in racing application.
The torana was the answer to the alfa .
love the ozzys. just so hard core. good blokes, old school
RIP.... I hope one day there will be a new Australia Holden Car and a Holden Dealer Team, one day fighting it out at Bathurst... with Holden, or even Ford... Bathurst will not be the same....
Fantastic stuff
Aussie motorsport cars were the closest to the American cars than any other country. But later also put JDM cars over as well. Great blend
"Race what you sold is what made" the era so good. Nowdays there is so many regs and running a 5 litre in what in sales terms of the VE type cars have 427ci engines in road form. I just don't get it. There is no comparison to anything on the street, regardless of $180,000 just for a Supercar Engine based on a 5 litre. I believe Supercars have lost the ethos of racing an equivalent of what you can buy from the pubic, and even modify as an off the showroom floor car. This what made this Torana of various types and Ford and Mechanical Sympathy sorted good drivers from average. We will never see such racing times again.
We got to Bathurst motors, "got new blinkers, head lights and windscreen", Harry was not happy......HAHA classic
I wish someone would do a repro of those HDT locomotive drivers caps
Poor Brockie would be turning in his grave with Holden now dead and buried with him. A sad time for all Australians when we realise how much and what we lost in a former way of life we once had.
Thanks, John Button. You sure screwed us with your stupid removal of import tariffs to the point where we can’t manufacture anything anymore. 😡
Dutton stopped the American owners of Holden and Ford pocketing huge amounts of taxpayer money. The Australian auto industry folded because consumers tastes changed, the economies of production diminished and the owners would not allow sales of locally manufactured overseas in order to keep economies of scale high.
And the corrupt unions that had unskilled production line workers on $100K +++
If they built better cars, i mean thought about it and put the technology that was as around at the time, not just a new grill and bumper they might of lasted for a bit longer too
The last commodore that Holden produced was a world class car and recognised as such by the motoring industry. Its just that GM did not see Holden as fitting into their global strategy.
Bit more complex than that. But it all adds up to failure in the end
6 laps 1979, will never be done
Brocks ego was bigger than any other driver, he loved himself
It was confidence in his own ability. Peter wasn't arrogant or rude to anyone, just fast on the track.
I've met them all and the two that stand out for the biggest Egos and arrogance by a long long way is Larry Perkins and Dick Johnson.
never gonna see these times again.
Perfect Brock
i was a touring car fan trough this period i was neither a holden fan nor a ford fan i just liked fast cars but there were many times when i thought the holdens were just too fast to fast to believe that driver skills could make up
Miss you Brocky ❤
5:07.
The good old days!
I'd hate to think what they look like now.
just gotta love brocky EIP KING BROCK
I dont smoke, but kinda feel like one. Anyone got a Marlboro?
When cars meant excitement. Today...couldn’t give a shit for products that race and nobody can buy off showroom floor.
2:10 my dad ran a Fj with that number!
So Peter Brock is the real drift king.
Money Talks. How else did they get Weber Carbs on the XU1. Still going on today. Now its if you can;t catch them. Slow them down
Peter Brock australian Clint Eastwood :-)
HDT 1969 79 from 1980 to 87 OPEL Dealer Team
Love Holdens
1:20:30 Haha always give me a giggle
True Aussie history
🙏🙏🙏
Holdens Gone and the worlds Fucked for a bit
Yes it Chris chie
How easy did the HDT win Bathurst and touring car races
Well they were always that bit smaller than the lumbering falcons, more agile. That’s where their edge was imo. And after Moffat Bond, Ford never put big money into it.
5.07 😀
huge drop tanks and big rubber. signature of the 70s ( . )( . )
guy does all the work....some dude polishes cars and gets development credit.
This is why the gtr was better than the slr
What we should of got in the Chevy Vega
Holden Torana had RTS...amazing
What was the deal with Ford Sierras being allowed to race and dominate in late 80's?, they weren't even available to the public and ruined the bathurst for me.
2021
4:30 vrrrrrr vrrrrrr vrrrrrr vrrrrrr sounds like ya trying to start a car
I stopped watching supercars last year when SVG left for NASCAR. Up the kiwis
Jast Isle
Jesus god arm ivory
1st 2econd and third. Fuck yeah
How in the world can you claim a bathurst win when you didn't finish in the same car you started. Thank God the bullshit days are gone
Spoken like a true Ford fan
It was in the rules then throught the motorsport world, particularly in Europe. Do some research, I can remember Moffat, Grace, Bowe, Richards all doing it. Johnson even drove all 3 of his Sierra's in the 88 race trying to win in one of them, you only see it as controversial because Brock was the only one good enough to do it and win.
Yawn
It's a pity that most of the holdens featured are german built Opels .....at least the Aussie Fords are home designed and built lol
they were built in Australia... Holden was told by gm to use the 1977 Opel Rekord E to save development cost, then used the Opel Senator front to accommodate the larger Holden engines. but testing showed it wasn't strong enough for Australia's poor roads so by the time is was modified it cost the same as if they started with a blank sheet...
The XU1 was based on the Holden Torana was a long way from a Vauxhall Viva everything was underneath was Holden. No the Commodore owed it’s body & Chassis design to the Rekord & Senator. The Commodore built here was a different car . Basically everything under the bonnet and the floor was Australian sourced and built. The chassis rails near the transmission tunnel were considerably stronger, all the suspension components were strengthened & upgrade. Engines & transmissions all Holden, brakes locally engineered by Repco PBR. The interior trims were locally designed. The instrument was Australian designed built by VDO in Melbourne. A lot of switches etc were Opel, the indicator stork a stock Holden part. No it wasn’t an Opel. I saw a early a 78 Opel Rekord & Senator, just not the same car. The chief engineer of the V car Chuck Chapman became the MD of Holden in 76.Peter Hanenberger who I believe was Chapman’s 2IC on the V car came to Australia in 76 I think & became Chief mechanical Engineer , his first task improving handling of the Holden Range (Radial Tuned Suspension). From then on the Commodore became more locally engineered although a lot of body designs still came from Opel. No Commodores were never Opel sourced.
a quick facts check there cowboy .. opel were gm yeah , but not holden . ford of the era were built here but used a lot of U.S bits too ... so both were sort of copies and parts bin cars .
so not a pity mate , its motorsport
@@VCCOMM ok pilgrim holden based models on Opels and used chev based 6 cyl motors while scrounging Vauxhall parts ....can you see my point that Ford use's Ford parts and designs from Ford ....FORD brother one name FORD !!! lol
Beagle76 ; not sourced from Opel that’s correct. Our Commodore VB to VZ we’re certainly based on the Opel commodore and Opel Omega ( from 1988 ). Using the Opel Floor plan . Side on most people can’t tell the difference , especially from a distance.
02597 Carter Burgs