Felipe Massa’s curious F1 legal action over 2008 title explained
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- Felipe Massa has begun legal action against the FIA and Formula 1 over the outcome of the 2008 F1 world championship, and the role the tainted Singapore Grand Prix played in his narrow title defeat to Lewis Hamilton.
But why is this only happening now, what's Massa hoping to achieve and does he have a legitimate case? We answer those questions as we revisit that infamous race and examine Massa's stance.
READ MORE HERE: the-race.com/formula-1/massa-...
00:00 Massa's legal challenge explained
02:36 What happened in Singapore
06:11 Will this work?
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Let's just repeat the race properly, with the same cars and same drivers, I think it's gonna be grand.
The only way to settle this.
Would pay to see that (especially with the old cars)
You win the internet today! Best idea ever!
Holy shit yes! Bring every car and driver from that race out of retiremement and let's go!
At least repeat all the remaining championship races after Singapore too, that would be more fair.
Let’s be honest here we all know nothings gonna change
Well, it says clearly, that he doesn't aim to change anything. Felipe just wants some FIA's money.
If he's the rightful champion then it should change
Bruh that fuel pipeline circus show literally cost him a championship, what the heck were you smoking gimme some of that 😂
I highly doubt it. If they change it, this will open the flood gates to many, many world championships being over turned.
@@MostlyLoveOfMusicHe’s not. Massa threw away so many points in 2008 it’s unreal. People feel sorry for him, and let’s face it, the ones who are most vocally supportive of Massa’s lawsuit attempt are just Hamilton haters.
The irony that Alonso then went on to win the very next race legitimately is so real!
To be fair, in that race Raikkonen suffered damage by the McLarens at the first corner, Mass sent Hamilton spinning and both received penalties, and the second McLaren retired with mechanical.
Alonso only had to beat the BMWs. Still a very good result, but facilitated by the circumstances.
Massa is right, whether everyone wants to pretend not
@@Olivyay a win's a win
@@HJOTechWhat a lazy argument
@@h.reldygnothing wrong with his argument. In order to finish first, first you have to finish
Fernando is literally one of my all time favourite drivers but there’s no way he did not know about this.
It’s fernando alonso for heaven sake.
El plan
He was quite the “bad guy” back then to so i do believe nando knew. Im a big fan of fernando but I will admit he always seems to know exactly whats going on and usually has a part to blame in the plan lol
Yeah he wouldn't have agreed to the strategy he started the race on if he didn't have some idea
No wait, he knew nothing about the Spygate, he knew nothing about Singapore, the guy just likes to drive, it's people around him who set up schemes for him but he doesn't want them to! /s
@@tjlinantud7440the bad guy for the British media.
Massa had been the WC if Ferrari hadnt make a massive mistake at the Singapore pit stop
Yes, but that's exacly the point. Ferrari went FULL FERRARI because everybody rushed to the pits as a reaction of a fake crash. Thats why any race with an incident like that should be discard. I strongly belive (and hope) that the WDC 2008 will not be overturned, but it's a huge chance to F1 and FIA settle strongly in newer regulations that anyone who make similar act or has knowledge of it and don't inform to FIA/F1 will be banned from the sport. Mistakes happens a lot in motorsports: from drivers, teams or even race directors. But a fake crash like that should've received much more attention. Sorry for bad english.
Yes good point, if Ferrari didn’t cock up that pit stop and Massa did become WC then he’s not going to take legal action 15 years later about how he should’ve won the championship by another 10 points
Let me correct that for you:
Massa had been the WC if he hadn’t made the massive mistake of trusting ferrari in any way to do something right.
@@ericbernardon1110 crashes happen all the time in F1; if a random incident could cause Ferrari to have a brain fart, then you could make the case that they would've also screwed up, even if the crash was unintentional, and I don't think you can claim restitution because you felt pressured to react whenever there's an incident and you made an error.
@@JScott-lg4jb I mean you can’t really argue with that logic
Thank you for pointing out the two biggest weaknesses in his case.
1. That it only works out for him if you use his preferred remedy of cancelling that entire race, and
2. You cannot presume everything would have played out the same over the final races. It's the same reason a first half penalty call didn't rob you of a win: the rest of the game would have played out differently if the call had gone your way.
It's not about the presumption if the rest of the races would have played out differently..they actually played out that way.
@@jeffreyhutchins6527 if the race had been thrown out the day after it occurred, the last two races would not have turned out the exact same way that they did.
@@jeffreyhutchins6527going into a race knowing you need 10 points vs 2 points is different. Wont push too hard to win the last race more about bringing the car home even in P5
Massa is just trying his look, crash gate didn't aftect him or Hamilton any more than anyone else, he chose to pit and his team botched it up, would he be crying for the result to be over turned if Hamilton got a bad pit stop instead of him
Don't forget his pit stop in Singapore 2008.
It's worth noting that at the time fuel loads were published before the race, so everyone knew alonso was going to pit early and couldn't figure out why. It was extra sus given the strategy for someone in a fast car who had a bad qualifying usually was to load up with a lot of fuel and go long.
Ill never understand crashgate. Its not like they were racing for the wdc. It honestly made no sense
Wasn't it only for 2009 that fuel loads were published before the race? That's the year I remember seeing the graphics of predicted pit stop laps during the formation lap.
@@tjlinantud7440 This is literally explained in this video, from 3:30 onwards.
@@tjlinantud7440 Singapore GP was the big novelty of that year - first night race ever. It was the perfect place for a winless team like Renault to win and get all the headlines.
You could argue that it is better for a fast car to drive in clear air ( doing an early pitstop ) than driving in the field of cars where you lose seconds per lap.
As a Brazilian who watched that finale, those last few moments of the 2008 season still hurts me to this day. And I totally understand why Massa is going after this. Just a shame that none of those responsible for that Singapore farce got the punishment that they deserved.
Do you mean the pit stop farce in Singapore, because it's Ferrari that should be blamed for that.
@@ab8jeh That pit stop wouldn't have happened if there was no crash in the first place.
as a lewis fan, I think he should sue Verstappen, the Fia and Michael massi for Abu Dhabi 2021
whatever it is, for me Hamilton should defend his 2008 title. I mean he didn't know the renault crash after this scandal was announced. He wasn't involved at the time either. If Hamilton had been at the Renault, maybe he would have lost his title, because he benefited from the crash. But as I said earlier he is not involved in this scandal. And it's too late for Massa to protest, it should be in 2009 directly. @reichsfuhrermonika6469
@@jawn_1086 Would be a little over the top don't you think? Max did just his job, nothing more...And it would be hypocrite from Lewis, he got more lucky in 2008 than Verstappen in 2021...
If I'm honest, making a judgement on the Massa situation will be difficult until we have more information. If it's just based off of Ecclestone's word, then its a flimsy case, if there is hard evidence, statements, witnesses, and people who are willing to take the stand and testify, there may be something more to it. If Mosley, Ecclestone, etc knew about Crashgate prior to the end of 2008 and chose not to do anything as they didn't want controversy (despite the fact the race should've been voided), I think it's disgusting and a serious failure.
Sure, you can argue this would unlock a can of worms, but I can rarely think of occurrences in this sport where the truth of the matter was covered up so heavily until years and years later. If this had all unravelled that year, I believe the result would've been voided - and had it been taken to court at the time, the regulations would've agreed with that fact.
Yes, there's a time period to which a team can protest results, but Ferrari and Massa were not privy to this information until Piquet Jr revealed it much later on.
Knowing what we know now - and what Massa has discovered through the heartless comments of higher-ups, I believe the precedent that should be set is that regardless of how much time passes, if something like this unravels, it should be settled in a court of law. Which is why I believe it's important this does occur.
if Massa goes complaining and changing the history and taking into account all "fairness and truth", by that definition, you gotta reshuffle most of the F1 WC history... cmon... This is not how this works..
Some things we will never know, this seems to far back but in all fairness Lewis got it gifted...To bad for Massa, lucky for Lewis.
Don't worry they won't and probably can't change the results, but they can award Massa the money he missed out on from not getting the WDC this is gonna be 8-figure settlement.
@TheGamerzXChannel "reshuffle most of the F1 WC history"? So you're saying most F1 WC have had team conspiracies just like this one? Well, do tell, mate. Shit, make a whole hour long video about it. I'm sure ALL of us would like to know of all the undiscovered F1 conspiracies that a random person on the internet somehow has access to. Go on, I'll wait.
@@TheGamerzXChannel I would love to see which world championships you can pin for crashgate levels of fixing and cover up (there aren’t any)
7:54 "but he was also let down by Ferrari" 15 years later and literally nothing has changed 😂
don't forget GP Belgium and 25 sec. the penalty gives Hamilton and Massa the gift of victory
Back in 2008 any track limits violations was a drive through, Hamilton got one himself for running wide in France that year
@@Duval-In-The-WallWhile overtaking someone.
He didn't overtake Raikkonen off track.
Because they were slow and didn't give him a drive-through during the race, he got a 25sec penalty after the race. And he did overtake Raikkonen off the track, got an advantage when he let him back for a moment and then overtook him again. In the rules it says that you cannot get an advantage with going off track and he did.
@@napsterbg He didn't break any rules at that time. He overtake off the track, then he gave the position back and then overtake again, but this time cleanly, on the next corner. There are no rules that said you can't immediately overtake after giving back a position. Besides Hamilton is clearly faster than Raikkonen that an overtake was inevitable anyway. Ferrari raised a ruckus and this is Ferrari International Assistance days so FIA has to create new rules in the spot that you can't immediately overtake after giving a position so they can penalize Hamilton.
@@sonicslv6132the rules forbid that sort of overtake. alonso did the same thing at suzuka in 2005, built up a 7 second gap and then had to drop back and give the place back under the orders of race control.
IS THAT GLOCK??? No, not really, not anymore, he isn't
That pit stop was a beautiful example of Ferrari’s talent in messing things up 🤣
that's when they started it...appearently it started in Fuji 2007 when the were the only team that somehow didn't receive the email by the FIA that all teams had to put on the full-wets so they had to pit both Kimi and Massa to change from Inters to heavy-wets and both were dead last to start the race. Only thing that saved them was the feud between Alonso and Lewis😂
As I’m sure others have pointed out, the problem is that if the race had been dealt with as he believes it should’ve been, you can’t then say that every race after that would’ve also gone the same way. Drivers would adjust how they approach the other races with the difference of points. The other thing for me is that Massa has claimed reputational damage, but to me, the only damage caused is through this action, rather than anything that took place when he was racing..
Not necessarily. I doubt Hamilton would have been able to do much better than he did in the remaining races in order to score the points needed to surpass Massa, had the Brazilian won Singapore. Another thing is that the race could have been nullified only after the Interlagos GP (it could have been nullified until the FIA ceremony when the title of champion is officially awarded). In this case, the drivers wouldn't adjust anything, because they wouldn't know the results of Singapore would have been made void.
This is a straw man argument as the following races are valid results, but the GP in question isn't due to fraud. You're arguing contra factual information we don't have, but the suit is about factual information we have. But I get why people will think it would
@user-dd4ib5eb1i you literally just said it yourself when you said "I doubt". No one can prove that hamilton wouldn't have got a comeback anyway. Massa only has ferrari to blame because every team reacted to the safety car and pitted fine apart from ferrari
Wow, never knew Coulthard ever drove for Toyota :D
(Great video as usual, just this tiny error in the classification graphic.)
Alonso: “I know naathing!”
Alonso fans: he knew nothing
Opposite really. That's why we like him. We know he knew.
You can always bet on Ferrari mess up pitstops, nothing has changed
True, same as Hamilton not defending the inside line very well. So all results should stay the same.
Since there is little to no chance the end result would change it so Massa would be given the 2008 championship it's more likely that the FiA will want to settle out of court especially if it starts going badly for them in court. Should that happen it would open up more monetary payouts to drivers/teams who are equally damaged by these types of decisions by the FiA. Hamilton and Mercedes would certainly have a slam dunk case for, at the very least, monetary compensation so it's in the interest of the FiA to make this go away as quickly as possible.
Na dawg not really.
"Slam dunk" lol
If you're talking about monetary compensation for 2021, the answer to that is "No".
Or, drag it out as long as possible, drown Massa in legal fees and deter anyone from ever seeking to cash in on something so frivolous.
Exactly, opens a can of worms. Who legally advised him? 🤡
What's crazy about this is, is how can we know how the next 3 races go? If they get caught then, Renault would have been punished for the last 3 races and then that changes the outcome, do teams race differently, check the car differently. Etc.
Those awesome graphics at the end 🤩
Im not sure what Massa hopes to gain here. Ferrari botching the pit stop is what cost him the title.
he hopes to gain a substantial amount of money
@@jokebrouwer4118Nice 😏
Ferrari botched the pitstop in large extent due to Kimi be waiting for Massa to be refueled, which was caused by the pitlane being about to be shut down because of the safety car and Piquet Jr.'s crash
Money
@@user-dd4ib5eb1i That's still Ferrari's fault. It's the team's job to do pit stops properly. Pit stops are a basic thing of the sport. Not Piquet or Renault's fault that Ferrari fucked up.
At the time Ferrari thought it was embarrassing to take that botched pit-stop to court. If you wanted to defend it as Renault, Ferrari also botched their strategy at Monaco for Massa in 2008 although Massa also lost time on an escape road before that.
Massa’s career was destroyed by the serious head injury he received in Hungarian GP qualifying 2009. It was a difficult season for him already, but he never fully recovered his front-running driving ability after that even though he stayed at Ferrari until 2013 and led the championship during that period.
This incident happened before Piquet Jr had admitted his part in the fake crash at 2008 Singapore, which was oh so believable as he’d nearly binned the car on the formation lap of that race.
The British Grand Prix and the embarrassing performance that Massa put on at that event would have been another event that lost him the championship in question as well.
Raikkonen was also a victim of a botched pit stop that same year. On the Europe GP, in Valencia, he left the fuel hose still attached and a mechanic was quite injured in the process - Kimi would abandon the race due to engine issues with 12 laps to go. The same race, Massa was unsafely released into Adrian Sutil but he was quick to brake; still Ferrari was fined for the action.
They were dogshit on the pits that year.
@@Axle0Bullitt019 And the Malaysian GP
@@ajcardiff1 so for you unless a driver drives an individually perfect season of 19 races you'll always point to 2 or 3 instances where the driver had some mishaps so you can ignore everything else...like a literally manipulated race the driver was absolutely dominating up to this point? Gotcha😂
@@kieranmay2975 I already made clear why this kind of "argument" makes not much sense. Of course you'll find individual mistakes over the course of a season of 19 races so? I mean you're free to think pointing to these instances is a valid argument to make a manipulated race look like a normal thing you shouldn't complain about as the driver who was clearly negatively impacted by that but it doesn't mean it makes sense or actually is a valid point😂
Massa just needs to stop. Had he not binned it TWENTY freaking times in the rain during the year, he would have been the clear winner before the finale. As a Ferrari fan, i wish hed just stop.
Can we also take the Fia to court for being light on Red Bull for breaking the budget rules that has given them a 30 second race advantage in 2022 and 2023 please? Shouldn't they be stripped off 2021 too? 🤣🤣🤣 Where are we going with this. Alonso would never get Piquet to crash a car for a Lewis Hamilton title win.
Verstappen overtook Hamilton on track Hamilton just lifted up his dress and bended over.
Delusional. First of all, the teams themselves discussed and agreed on the penalties regarding the budget cap. 2nd, there is absolutely no chance a 400k overspend gave RB a 30 sec advantage.. if you suggest it does then all of the other 9 teams seriously f*cked up big time…
Massa doesnt care about the 2008 title. He just wants a $million pay day. This will easily settle out of court. Bookmark this.
an interesting video would be to see alternative champions if rules were followed correctly. Senna 89, Damon Hill 1994 etc.
Hamilton 21
@@ballparkjebusiteAccording to Hamilton fans, the season has only 1 race. Poor souls being tortured to this day 🤣.
@@darrenjohn8524 you got it exactly backwards. But that’s expected for someone living in fantasy land
@@ballparkjebusite Says the one crying about 2021 till these day 🤣.
@@darrenjohn8524 try to stay on topic like I did. I know it’s hard with the one brain cell you have.
Great analysis good job👍
Massa threw away the championship that year with horrendous performances during the season, especially in the wet
Yeah. He was spinning all over the place in the British GP. And threw away a 2nd place finish by spinning out of the race in Malaysia in the dry.
His engine threw it away in Hungary
@@Duval-In-The-Wall He was desperately unlucky in Hungary, that was rotten luck and I felt genuinely sorry for him that day.
What does this mean for his ambassadorial role for F1?
Ferrari botching a pitstop is so out of character for them.
Hoooollld on @the_race: Ferrari switched from automated to the manual lights system BECAUSE of the traffic gulf that ensued after the pit lane opened again. This is a very important argument for Massa, since that would have likely resulted in a much better pit stop and Felipe not driving away erroneously.
Having said that, I believe the result should be to kick Alonso and Renault out of that GP altogether, as much as I want Felipe to be WC of 2008.
That would be against the FIA's own rules. Assuming Ecclestone explained them correctly when he lit this dumpster fire earlier this year, the race classification would be nullified, leaving the championship as if the Singapore GP never happened.
In the event of race fixing, the race itself is nullified. Obviously, as the fixing changed the result for everyone across the grid
The thing is, changing abu dhabi is nonsense for the FIA because it was essentially a FIA mistake (yes, it was just one individual, but a FIA employee still), so the FIA would make sure to try not to lose credibility. In 2008, it was a competitor who cheated, not a FIA mistake. I dont believe the result is gonna change, but i do think that massa has more grounds to take action than merc or hamilton. Probably it will be just monetary compensation for massa, i mean, at the end of the day there are interviews and declarations from the time that back his cause
its still the FIA admitting that they handled it incorrectly which ain't gonna happen. This is DOA.
@@oxfordsparky they were in a lose-lose situation, whatever the outcome of that race, it was going to be controversial. If the track was clear for one lap all of max and red bull supporters plus lewis haters would want that lap to be raced, in the other hand all of hamilton and mercedes supporters plus max haters wouldn't... so really whatever they were thinking of doing, it was going to put them between the sword and the wall. They went for the show and was amazing yet probably unfair, the other would be anticlimatic for a great season to finish under safety car, would be probably unfair as well so yeah, either way they were going to lose
Nando ruining Ferrari's Championship makes him losing in 2012 KARMA
yeah just no
Ferrari ruined their 2008 championship with a bad pit stop for Massa and then they ruined Alonso's 2012 championship by NOT pitting him to undercut Petrov lol.
The entire rest of his career is karma lmao
No, he's not the rightful champion. If they disqualify Alonso from the Singapore race that happened in 2008, Lewis still wins the championship by an even bigger margin. Him dragging this to court only makes him look like a fool already . And if Massa gets anywhere at all with this, then this sport is so cooked.
The sport is already cooked.
Lol...Massa was leading the race and only needed to finish that race 8th that he would be the champion.
You have to remember, that if they nullified the results of the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, Max would still be world champion as he had more wins that season. They wouldn't change the result of the race, but remove the race results overall, this is likely why Mercedes didn't bother with a challenge, because either way, Max would be World Champion.
yeah, but he wouldn't sue to nullify the results, he would sue to switch their places, because Michael massi "unfairly changed his race" but even as a lewis fan I kinda agree with the max fans about 2021
Source: "I made it up"
Fact: Before Abu Dhabi, Max had 370.5 points and Hamilton had 369.5 points .
If Hamilton had been given the race win he would have Gained 25 points and had 394.5 points, and max coming second would have gained him 18 points giving him a total of 388.5 points .
Lewis would have won .
Furthermore , if things were the way you say the were then max would have been crowned before Abu Dhabi and there wouldn't have been the amount of anticipation that there was for the race , because as you said , no matter the outcome of Abu Dhabi, Max would have been champion right ? .
I'm not even a fan of either , I'm a Lando fan , I just think it's gullible that most Verstappen fans still wanna justify Max's 2021 title .
It's funny coz even commentators, and other members of the paddock have found themselves referring to that championship as a botched championship on camera and have had to stop themselves mid sentence when they realize that sensitive indenial people would blow it out of proportion.
@@michaelmonareng3210You didn't read. He said if Abu Dhabi '21 was nullified Max would still be champion because they came in on equal points and max would have won on count back as he had more wins.
@@eternal_trasheroread what I wrote , they would not have had equal points mate 😂
Also, if they swap the AB results to give Ham the victory. RedBull can counter argue with Bahrain and get Max's victory@@eternal_trashero
Can you image the hissy fit lulu will throw if this happens 😂😂😂
Lewis is a class act I doubt he'd say much
2021.
It was brutal when Massa lost that title, and to know it was likely stolen from him makes it even worse.
Only if you really think no other team (Mclaren particularly) would have acted differently in the following races if the points were different. One very obvious example is the conservative nature by which they approached Brazil 2008 knowing #44 would only need to come 5th. If the points had been equal, for example, going into Brazil they would have used a different strategy, or maybe more aggressive (but risky) engine settings, or some other factor.
Multiply those options by the several other races... and who knows what the outcome could've been.
@@jamesantill5065 The chance of anything changing is pretty much zero so I wouldn't spend too much time pondering hypotheticals.
This could open the Pandora’s box for things like this: Prost or Hill could be seeing this and thinking maybe I could do this (unlikely from those two tho)
As I understand it, Massa seeks redress not the title. And he seeks redress, as it is now known that the top of F1 knew about the scheme in 2008
We're just gonna ignore that Ferrari EPICLY screwed up his pit stop and costs him points in this race when all he needed with an 10th place?
Edit: 8th. I forgot this was before they expanded points to 10th position.
The stop was a consequence of the crash dude
@@unthenner5519them messing up is on themselves, nothing to do with the crash
@@ihsanjayadi88That's not relevant in any way shape or form dude
That's not what the case is about. Whatever anyone else did in any other race is irrelevant to the case
Pit stop desn't matter. Even if Mass was 2nd, or 8th, it would still be worth it for the sake of truth and justice and all that, to delete the Singapore Gp results. The guy who won, only did so because it was the stated goal of the crime. Of course the results should be thrown out. Pit stops and world champions be damned. --That's a backwards way to look at things. We can't start by looking at the consequences and argue from there. That's literally dishonest.
I don't want the Singapore result as part of the 2008 season. it was cheated. Rigged.
So you say to me "but what if Massa had a perfect pit stop, and got the points to be world champion?"
Doesn't matter. I still wouldn't want that result as part of the 2008 season. This fixation on a pitstop is missing the point.
8:25 Come on, Coulthard drove for Red Bull, not Toyota.
Is that Coulthard?! No it's Glock.
Congratulations to the 1 million subscribers. Cheers and the videos are very good.
Let’s not forgot timo block breaking down at the last corner in Brazil, which I always thought was dodgy
You can't reassign old championships. The titles won unfairly by Lance Armstrong or Juventus which were stripped went unawarded.
The only exception was the last one of Juventus but as that had only just ended, it went to second place Inter. This was so long ago, half the current grid were still at primary school.
Also, Hamilton did nothing wrong.
he never asked to be given the championship. if anything, his statement suggests he wants compensation for the mental and reputation damages, be that monetary or otherwise
@@ronweasley5445that makes more sense. I do feel bad for him.
You can tho...that already happened with the Olympics and some athletes got their gold medal several years later..
Its not abt Hamilton...and Massa isn't addressing it to Hamilton either.
@@henry247 and how are they remembered? To what point? Massa never was and never will be an F1 WC. IF he goes after financial compensations, that's totally smth else..
I think Massa is right to challenge the FIA but the issue is more with Renault and FIA and any result should not impact Lewis or Mclaren. It doesn't matter whether you're a Lewis fan or not, he and Mclaren did nothing wrong and it will be unfair to punish him or remove his championship. Just like it would be unfair to punish Max for 2021 for example.
The two cases are very different. In Massa's case the issue was caused by another team. And more importantly it was not the final act of a race, let alone the championship itself. Compare this to Abu Dhabi. Last act of the last race, where the rules are simply ignored.
@@stefdththere were no concrete rules at the time for letting cars pass during the safety car, they only implemented them after. So even if it is human error you would either cancel the entire race or leave it as is and pay Hamilton and Mercedes damages/
Incorrect. The rules haven't been changed
@@testyoutube1974 The FIA published an updated version of the Sporting Regulations ahead of the 2022 F1 season that featured a revision to the Safety Car regulation regarding lapped cars.
Article 55.13 now reads: “If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message 'LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE' has been sent to all Competitors using the official messaging system, all cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the Safety Car.”
The change replaced the phrasing which read “any” rather than “all” lapped cars are required to overtake and rejoin at the back of the field prior to the restart. The alteration was made to prevent a repeat of the controversial 2021 title decider in Abu Dhabi.
Enjoy reading
@@RevolverRho They haven't that was the problem with abu dhabi. They've been "corrected" technically
I see quite a lot a similarity between this & 2021 Dubai GP
It’s remarkable how we can link such controversy to last lap championship decisions. Exclusion of the Renault results from Singapore would have rendered Hamilton’s last lap overtake of Glock in Brazil as irrelevant in the championship.
Except, assuming Ecclestone was right in his explanation of the rules during that interview, it wouldn't just be Renault who would have been docked points. The entire race result would have been scrapped.
@@halofreak1990 I was only meaning to response to the video’s “what-if” scenario at the end though. Not meaning to imply that it would have been right or fair.
I am Brazilian, and I think the whole crashgage thing was shady AF and I was pissed that Massa ended up losing the championship. But what's done is done. Leave it alone.
Agreed. Massa was awesome but Ferrari is a horrible team.
Your comment deserves more likes but Lewis fans will not like it 😂😂😂
They can't let it go 😅
Nothing can account for the fact that Massa left the pits with the fuel hose still on.
Well, without the crash, he wouldn't have entered the pit at that moment.
He literally wouldn’t have pitted without it
the Race seems to be changing the Singapore story from video to video as they see fit.
wait which part did they change? (im actually curious)
Felipe: Am I fuelled?
Ferrari: We are checking...
Pretty hypocritical to tell Massa to get over 2008 when you still go on about 2021, dont you think...?
15 years Vs 2 years. And Hamilton as far as I know is not taking Masi to court.
@@ab8jehthose people who are still crying about 2021 results just need to grow a pair. They are ridiculous 😂 Its already 2 years now
@@vennemans9113 YEaH gET OveR It
I just want to know if Massa had won WDC that year, would he then appeal for nullifying the Singapore?
what's the point? there's no IF, it didn't happen. if my grandma still had her teeth she could eat nuts more often, but she doesn't have. stop deviating the subject and being a douche.
is it race week?
I mean it’s interesting that people complain more about 2021 than a season with a confirmed FIXED race
Recency bias for sure
Whatever Massa is trying to claim as compensation whether its financial or otherwise, just finding people to corroborate Bernie's statements is already difficult and the case would probably fall apart immediately the moment someone asks them to support Bernie's statements with a witness. And even if they manage to do that, it's unlikely anyone would agree to either granting compensation or nullifying the race. It sets a really bad precedent that could put other controversial title deciders under threat of being changed, and no that isn't just about Abu Dhabi 2021.
And even with all that where does Ferrari's botched pitstop factor into this? Or even the car-related retirements? Narrowing down the fact you lost a title to just one moment may sound reasonable, but it's ultimately what happens throughout a season that decides a title. For example, yes you can say Hamilton lost the title in Abu Dhabi, but I don't think that rules out him dropping the ball in Baku as well. It's all those race-specific incidents that ultimately lead to one losing a title, not just something that happens in one race.
15 years later? This is dumb. Ferrari fucked up with the fuel, that is separate from Renault rigging the race.
all controversial titles are now up to review, senna, prost, schumacher, verstapen... 🤷♂
Where's your evidence
Verstappen overtook Hamilton on track Hamilton just lifted up his dress and bended over.
@@unthenner5519he's saying in case this lawsuit, without any evidence, is legitimized
@@minatoyellowflash100spoken like a true dts fan
@@makisan2596 Heheheh Lulu bended over and now he hasnt won a race in 2 years 😘😘
He isn't trying to overturn who became WC. He is going after the FIA for the potential financial losses etc that were created by "crashgate". He can rightfully go after them years later as new information has come to light.
As others have said the FIA will want this swept under the proverbial carpet asap.
Here's a cool video Idea, make a poll and let's create the ULTIMATE FORMULA 1 CAR. And do videos that make sense pls
He lost 2008 fair and square. The only difference with how they handled it to how they should have handled it is disqualifying Alonso as his team cheated - thus Hamilton finishes P2 and Massa loses by even more.
There is no logical or legal argument that would suggest the race would have been nullified even if they knew at the time and punished Renault at the time.
Massa still would have pitted and still would have DNF'd.
Massa is no more a victim of how Singapore was handled than any other driver who lose points to Alonso in that race, like Hamilton.
Had piquet not crashed deliberately then massa would have been on course to win the race, did you watch it at all?
@@loughieholt2737He obviously didnt he was still in nappies
@@loughieholt2737
But two things happened:
1. Piquet Jr did crash deliberately.
2. A safety car was called.
That cannot change. It happened. Irrespective of if the crash was deliberate or not doesn't change the fact a safetycar was always going to get called for such a crash.
If the FIA knew it was deliberate at the time; they STILL would have called for a Safety Car, Massa STILL would have pitted and STILL would have DNF'd as a result.
In no universe would the FIA have cancelled the race, even if they knew the crash was deliberate.
At most; they would have Disqualified Alonso's car - which doesn't reverse the DNF Massa got. Hamilton would have then gotten P2 and won by an even bigger margin.
Hamilton could just as easily sue and protest the fact he only got 3rd, when Alonso should have been Disqualified and Hamilton SHOULD have gotten 2nd instead. But in no world would the Singapore GP be cancelled due to a crash, deliberate or not.
If Massa wins this Lewis should win 2 other cases then. Brazil 2007 those who finished above Lewis were on cool fuel giving them extra horse power otherwise Lewis would have overtaken them. Of course Abu Dhabi 2021. Lewis could probably appeal for his Spa 2008 win at the same time, and his penalty at Japan 2008 when he was judged for hitting Kimi when it was Hekki and Massa should have been black flagged for dangerous driving in that race. The going backs are endless. Massa can you seldomly swear that Ferrari's 2007 car wasn't illegal? Really Massa should be taking Alonso, Piquet, Flavio and Pat to court!
Wasn't it also Fuji where Massa took him out?
Lewis has nothing for 2021 because if they remove Abu Dhabi's results from the calendar which is all they can do then Max Verstappen STILL wins on points and race wins. So there is nothing Hamilton can do for 2021 regardless of the outcome of this case.
@@RoeShamBoe I don't think Hamilton would stoop this low, so we won't need to find out.
@@RoeShamBoeSource: "I made it up"
Fact: Before Abu Dhabi, Max had 370.5 points and Hamilton had 369.5 points .
If Hamilton had been given the race win he would have Gained 25 points and had 394.5 points, and max coming second would have gained him 18 points giving him a total of 388.5 points .
Lewis would have more points than max
Lewis would have won .
Furthermore , if things were the way you say the were then max would have been crowned before Abu Dhabi and there wouldn't have been the amount of anticipation that there was for the race , because as you said , no matter the outcome of Abu Dhabi, Max would have been champion right ? .
I'm not even a fan of either , I'm a Lando fan , I just think it's gullible that most Verstappen fans still wanna justify Max's 2021 title .
It's funny coz even commentators, and other members of the paddock have found themselves referring to that championship as a botched championship on camera and have had to stop themselves mid sentence when they realize that sensitive indenial people would blow it out of proportion.
@@michaelmonareng3210yikes
8:24 I never knew that David Coulthard drove for Toyota!
2005 - 2008 He drove for Redbull. 1996 - 2004 McLaren and 1994 (part time) + 1995 Williams.
@@antonio_sf90 Thanks, the retro F1 graphic they've used to show Singapore race result without Alonso has DC down as driving a Toyota! ;)
GJ. Covered well. Particularly the point about how the teams and drivers would have acted with the point gap being different in the final races.
Eh... this gets brought up often along with Massa's engine failure at Hungary as the sole reasons he lost the championship to Hamilton in 2008. The truth is that both of these incidents are completely moot and neither of them would have mattered if Massa didn't throw away a 2nd place finish in Malaysia by spinning out of the race. All he had to do was finish that race and he would have been champion. Singapore and Hungary were out of Massa's control, he couldn't do anything about those incidents, but Malaysia was driver error. In the end he lost the championship himself.
All the results matter.
Ferrari unreliability and mistakes cost him 24 points (on for a top 5 in Australia without the engine failure)
I really liked this video.
Even wanting another brazillian to be a F1 champion, Massa really has no hopes of arguing the case that he should receive the tittle over this, being that mercedez had zero involvement on the case and was caught by surprise just as much as ferrari.
The best case he could present was to receive damages if he can prove the FIA mishandled the situation back then.
Mercedes?
Quick! We need Legal Eagle to look at this!
damn, didn’t know coulthard drove for toyota ;) 8:34
So Massa would have won the race comfortably if Renault and Piquet hadn't crashed, causing the Safety Car to come out and the events that unfollowed in the Ferrari pitlane. If he wins, I fully expect Abu Dhabi 2021, and Adelaide 1994 to be reviewed next.
You have to remember, that if they nullified the
results of the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP Max would still be
world champion as he had more wins that season
They wouldn't change the result of the race, but
remove the race results overall, this is likely why
Mercedes didn't bother with a challenge, because
either way, Max would be World Champion.
@@omarmohamed6984 Since there is precedent for counting back laps to decide a single race, it's not a foregone conclusion that the entire race would be voided. Same situation that Massa faces.
Massa sounds like a going to a job interview at Redbull headquarters with Christian Horner.
How the fuck do you figure?😂
Imagine making this about RB/ Horner. You brits are seriously so incredibly salty, it‘s way too funny.
If it had been Alonso who had won the WDC, then I have no doubt that Massa would deserve the title to change hands to his. But Hamilton did nothing wrong, and can always argue that if Massa had more points he would have approached certain races differently. Massa deserves a healthy payout from the FIA, and a formal apology for the deceit and disrespect, but I don't think changing the WDC is going to happen in these circumstances.
Massa is super person but was never really in the first rank of F1 drivers.
Honestly, even ignoring all other arguments, there needs to be a statute of limitations on this kind of thing. 5-10 years. 15 years is way too long to wait to do this, especially when all of this information was out the year after it happened.
Limits exists, but they run only after things are discovered.
And no the informations weren't out the next year as the FIA fainted they didn't knew until then.
The fact is you can't just assume Massa would have even finished the race without the crash and SC. Things would have played out differently and nobody knows for sure what the result would have been. Massa may have picked up a puncture, collided with a backmarker, clipped the wall. The Ferrari pit crew might still have screwed up the stop. Far too many variables to just assume he would have taken the points he needed to be champion. Feel bad for the guy that 2008 still plays on his mind so much but he can't seriously expect to gain anything from this. It's a little embarrassing
Hamilton fan^
He lost the GP by 1 point bro, ONE POINT
Masa might have a stronger case if Ferrari didn't mess up the pit stop. But they did, because they suck.
A title rightfully belongs to the driver who finishes with the most points. Who can say for sure that Ferrari don't still fuck his pit stop and cost him the race?
Well if Lewis is stripped of 2008, then Max should be stripped of 2021.
No one is getting stripped grow up
Even if Max led more than twice as many laps, had double the poles, more podiums and more race victories than Hamilton?
More like Lewis should recieve a 5 second time penalty fot cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage 😏
Typical TeamLH logic. Comparing the incomparable.
@@vennemans9113how? The FIA have stated they didn't follow procedure meaning back markets where treated unfair, this year they have finished a race under the safety car and over turned a decision later on when George gave his trophy to Fernando, they know Lewis is the 21 champion but don't want to make conflict by giving it him, am error is an error it Doesn't matter if its human or system the FIA should make it right
If the FIA knew the race had been fixed but didn’t speak out, then you have to feel for Massa. That event should be invalid. Sadly in changing it 15-16 years later will just open a can of worms.
Massa was a liked driver by everyone. I think he was the neutral’s favourite in 2008, it’s just a shame he never got to win it properly with a trophy in his hand.
IN that same race was the infamous pitstop error. So without the crash he still would have lost. People conveniently forget that part. And lets not forget the many other errors he made in other races after this. He was not the neutral's favorite in 2008. Not sure what ur smoking. Just stick to the facts.
Maybe such error wouldn't had happened without the SC period.@@PregnantSausage
@@PregnantSausage as others have said in this comments section, if there hadn't been a safety car, there wouldn't have been a failed pit stop. Maybe Ferrari would've kept their calm around their planned pit window, instead of being forced to come in early due to the safety car.
On what basis should the race be invalid? You are a liar.
@@PregnantSausageHe wouldn't have been in the pits. I hope you are never on a jury.
Read my mind with this content.
8:36 I didn’t know DC drove for Toyota 😉
Ok, I like Massa, and I feel bad for him, but this case from a sporting point of view has absolutely no ground. Never a race has been completely cancelled because wrong doing of a driver or a team.
Even getting financial compensation from FIA of F1 seems very difficult since it's not their wrongdoing that denied Massa the title. Furthermore in a Championship made of several races you can't blame only one event, if Massa didn't make the mistake in Monaco for example he would have won the championship.
Good luck trying to convince Ham fans that 2021 was a whole campaign and not a single race. Take out Bowling for Red Bulls in Hungary and Lewis can win AD but not the championship; take out the crash damage instigated by MB in Silverstone and Hungary and Red Bull is comfortably under the cap. Ironically, Hamilton probably understands Massa better than anyone, after 2021.
Tell that to cult44😂
NOOO there is a massive difference
1. It was the FIA/ FOM that covered it up & therefore the result - NOT the “team or driver” - yes they were the cause but the deliberate withholding of information is what “changed the result”.
2. Massa’s other races are TOTALLY irrelevant because the season carried out as if that race counted.& ALL the other events were treated correctly by the FIA & FOM. Nothing else impacted the actual result.
3.Its irrelevant what mistakes Massa made. No-one is asking change the course of events!!!- thats ridiculous. The only thing in question is the “count”. Rules say if the FIA knew that race was “fixed” & we now know THEY DID. Then the championship count is in favour of Massa. SIMPLE AS THAT
* Let me be clear - I am no Massa fan* I’m a Hamilton fan. But truth is truth!& the legal side of this is very interesting. & if you look at the hypocrisy of this-its even more interesting!. I mean Renault were banned for 5 years. Briatore banned for life: Pat Symonds 5 years for their part in “Crashgate”How can this NOT GO UNPUNISHED let alone uncorrected.
The case argues that _it is_ the wrongdoing of the FIA by knowing about crashgate during the season and doing nothing. You could make the argument that, while _any action whatsoever_ could have make the championship go either way, doing nothing _definitely_ affected the results for Massa, and that's pretty clearly what they're going after. The hardest part to prove in court is wether or not they actually knew during the season, so if the FIA thinks it can win the case on court, they might fight it. If the FIA sees any chance of losing, they'll probably settle out of court to make the less fuss about it possible
@@greenlantern7959yeah and same goes for several times where verstappen could have easily lost the championship before abu dhabi. It doesn't matter, both of them deserved the win going into the final race based on the performance they'd shown over the season, but hamilton would have comfortably won in the end if he hadn't been fucked over by the race director, and thus while it's fair that verstappen keeps the title since he had nothing to do with said fucking, it's also fair that his title will forever have an asterisk attached to it.
I'm sure if he didn't 1:40 spinning at Silverstone we wouldn't be in this position... However, if this works out for Massa does this mean Hamilton could do the same for both 2007 and 2021? Let alone all the others that could do it in history like Hill?
Exactly, if Massa wins this suit then the 2021 championship will also be contested because there was a clear breach of the rules. I get what Massa wants to do this and maybe it will be deemed that he did deserve the title but his team made a massive mistake during that race anyway and there were loads of other variables. As a Hamilton fan I would love to see him with an 8th but ultimately contesting titles from years ago just seems like its opening a massive can of worms, pandoras box even.
Hamilton should have won 2021 if the rules were followed in the last race but if he contests it and wins it just proves that what happens on track doesn't actually matter.
No. Because if Abu Dhabi's results are removed, Max V. STILL wins the title on points and wins. Hamilton has no hope for 2021. In THIS case, the only reason Massa even is in the news is because of Bernie's public comments about him and Max M. knowing about the race fixing and not doing anything about it. Remember Massa claimed legal action as soon as Bernie's words were made public. That was months ago and the only reason it's in the news NOW is because in order to file the suit, you have to deliver a "letter of intent" which is what Massa's lawyers have done. That's why we're talking about it now because Massa's lawyers are following the proper rules of procedure in whatever venue/jurisdiction they are filing.
I'm sure if Massa finished 8th at Singapore he would've won it...
What a shitty argument.
@@TheGamingAddict2000let him sue then
If Abu Dhabi 21 was voided Max is champion because of count back.
maybe ferrari shouldn't have fluffed the pit stop.
8:33 didn't know David Coulthard raced for Toyota in 2008 lmfao
He should get compensated financially. But the championship result should stay the same.
I don’t see how he can claim he was “deliberately cheated out of the title”
It was never about him or his title chances. It was about the outcome of the Singapore Grand Prix 2008.
This legal challenge will fail, and Massa is being conned by his lawyers.
the argument is, the race should’ve been voided but wasn’t. if it was voided, he was champion. that was a conscious decision that the FIA made when they decided not to pursue changing the result. ecclestone revealed that mosley was very aware of what happened years before it came to the public’s attention
Do u understand that if Massa had finished that race at 8th he would've won the championship? And he was leading it.
@@ronweasley5445 Can you tell me on what basis the race would be voided? There is no basis for that whatsoever.
@@denzel9086 use common sense. can we declare that race result wasn’t influenced by blatant, purposeful race fixing? it’s sporting 101, you cannot fix a race. every position from P1 downwards was a result of what happened after piquet crashed. not one of those results should’ve stood
The idea is that the FIA knew that Singapore 2008 was fixed during the season but never pressed to void the results, which is really scummy
The difference however between 2008 and 2021 was Renault cheated in 2008, and FIA fucked up in 2021. So not pursuing changing the championship because of that makes no sense. Those are two very different situations. To be honest, Hamilton would have still lost. Max came in for fresh tires during the safety car, and Lewis did not. People tend to forget that small bit of information along with Lewis still being in the lead before max blew by with fresh tires.
Go look at the 2019 Bahrain GP. The safety car came out the same lap and everything. Race did not restart. Mercedes thought the race would end under the safety car and Masi caved in and gave everyone a NASCAR GWC finish(and yes I’m a NASCAR fan).
Wrong crashstappen wouldn't have won if the rules were followed. Because it would have taken more then the laps left for all the cars that Lewis lapped to be unlapped under safety car speeds.
If this ever happens then it’ll open up the win result against Schumacher who took Hill out in Adelaide in 95, and then his car was damaged , he didn’t finish the race and Schumacher won his 2nd title by default.
It's too late for Massa
Because Max Mosley & Charlie Witting already passed away
Wouldn’t be happening if any other driver had won that title
Big victim complex you have
I feel like Massa has been sweet talked by a lawyer or two, because I can't see anything coming of this case. Maybe he feels he deserves some financial compensation but I don't see him getting that either.
oh my gosh this scandal is almost crazy and controversy on it 😮
according to the rules of the FIA and the sporing code, you have the right to protest for up to 5 years, i.e. to start the process in court, Massa can judge privately, but he will not win no matter what team of lawyers he has, he got a gift of victory in GP Belgium (25 sec. penalty to Hamilton) and at the end a mistake in the pit stop in Singapore, if we are honest with the arrival to Brazil and the result remains as it is, Hamilton would have 3 more points
That's not the issue here. The issue here is corruption causing someone monetary damage. Then it's not just a matter of what the sporting rules say, but what the law says.
The sporting rules will still play a part in the case, but the will not be the be-all-end-all.
i feel sorry for him, he was always a driver i had a soft spot for. but he won’t get a championship out of this. i hope he gets money though, put that egg straight back in the FIA’s face where it belongs
i hope lewis sues for 2021, just to see max fans on twitter absolutely lose their minds
I really liked him too. I don't think he was ever the same since he got hit in the head by Barrichello's spring.
@@jackgenewtf yeah that was hard to watch. his williams renaissance was a welcome surprise though
and his retirement (both of them) brought a tear to the eye
@@tesseract_ukWhat Renaissance are talking about? The Williams flattered bottas and Massa. Hamilton and Mercedes already got Masi sacked. U think Hamilton and Mercedes didn't sue out of their goodness of their heart🤣?
Verstappen is still a world champion without Abu Dhabi if the race is nullified (if somehow they can prove race fixing and not a stewarding mistake), and there is no case for Red Bull to be disqualified for the race. In every scenario Hamilton is not the champion.
Imagine if this pursuit of legal action somehow ends up with Ecclestone in jail
There is no way that is going to court ? that is alot of if and could be for some backdated result !
He is the legitimate winner of the 2008 championship
No, he isn't.
why man. Lewis rightfully won.
$$$$$$$$$$
Its not about Lewis and the title, its about lost income from if he was WDC..
When Lance Armstrong was found to have cheated and had his wins voided, it retrospectively changed all the results of those races. I don’t see how this any different. A team cheated, gained an advantage and should have their result for that race deleted.
Massa lost the title in Malaysia and Silverstone 2008. Everyone seems to forget his sub standard performances in these races. An easy P2 was on the cards in Sepang but he spun out. Everyone forgets this ☘️
And the less said about Silverstone the better. Easily one of Felipe’s most shocking races.
@@Spudchucker92 And everyone seems to forget the completely bent decisions made in the Belgian and Japanese GPs, which collectively gave Massa a net 8 points advantage over Hamilton. Ironically, the exact same amount that Hamilton gained from the Singapore GP when compared against the points the two drivers would have scored had they finished where they qualified.