As an owner of a Tesla Model 3 with a LFP battery, I have to agree that the lower energy density LFP still offers an effective range not far below the long range Model 3s fitted with higher energy density nickel chemistry cells that are only charged to 80%. I suspect that over the longer term that LFP Teslas will have a greater resale value due to their more robust batteries.
LFP is the way to go. I wish my Model Y LR had them. Would love the faster charging and 100% charge rate. They are cheaper batteries too. I think Elon is making these calls. He needs to understand that EV owners want an ICE owner gas station experience. Mass EV adoption with faster charge times.
I think it likely it would be the LFP RWD cybertruck with all terrain tyres that would do 250 miles. All season more like 270-280. They don’t want to sell any variants with
Personally for any towing, living in the northern cold climate, for lack of charging infrastructure and remote access, still wanting 500plus mile range.
It will happen, just not yet. That is a niche as 90% of people don't need it. But once Cybertruck is ramped enough filling that niche will become worthwhile.
But let’s say the charger network is more extensive, you would then prefer faster charge times versus range. Spending only 10 minutes in station versus 30?
Unless you don't use your EV for any long distance driving, range is king. Having the ability to charge beyond 80% when needed on long distance trips is important. My first EV, a 2019 Tesla Model 3 SR+ had a 240 mile EPA range estimate w/18" wheels (my Tesla had the 19" factory wheels so it actually got less than 240 mile range). I drove it from Dallas to Telluride, CO and regularly had to reduce speed below the posted speed limit when encountering unexpected headwinds to make it to the next Supercharger. Range anxiety was real. I did the same trip in my 2023 Model Y LR and the extra capacity of the LR's battery made the trip so much more easy. When LFP can match the range of NMC for long distance trips, I'll consider LFP.
Understood but if the charger network was more extensive you would prefer faster charging then range? I am of the opinion that we will have mass EV adoption with faster charge times, like ICE gas station fast.
I live 25 miles from town and drive a long range model Y. Typically I charge to 60% and drive about 150 miles in a day. I could easily use a cyber truck with LFP batteries. I Occasionally tow boats, etc.
Those Blade batteries are 118mm tall too (vs 80 for the 4680), which would make use of that "empty" vertical space we see in the current CyberTruck packs. Probably not all of the space (rough guess from the munro videos) but quite a bit of it. Also worth note, BYD claims their new Blade 2 batteris have 190Wh/Kg, a 23% improvement compared to their current Blade1's 150Wh/Kg,.. presuamably what's in the current Teslas (Berlin Model Y?).
I'm fairly certain tesla has plans for a lower cost variant of the 4680 with a different chemistry that will negate the need to outsource the lfp pack.
Interesting calculations; thanks for sharing. Your starting point is that the cells need to fill the volume of the structural battery pack. Please clarify the volume of the Cybertruck battery pack and what capacity of LFP cells would fill that volume. My guess is more than 90kWh. ☮️
I had a 2022 MY 4680. It had 262mi range at 111k miles. Roughly 6% loss. It was weird for 3 months the "guessometer" said 200mi at 80%, about a week before the car got totalled it creeped closer to 210 mile range at 80%. Guess thats why they say "guessometer".
Thanks Jon! One issue for me...I think BYD blade cells don't qualify for IRA credit, so that doesn't seem fit the description that "Cybertruck is likely to qualify for the federal tax credit later in 2024." There's definitely advantage to using 4680 form factor, as pack assembly would be identical to the existing pack. What about Panasonic's 5-tab NMC cell? With less active material, a battery pack made with these cells should have a lower energy, especially on earlier versions which should be more conservative.
Panasonic's cells won't have lower energy density, if anything they'll come in higher. Tesla will simply use in-house cells and decontent the pack or wait until LFP production in Nevada is operational.
What if they offered LFP in the AWD versions of Model 3, Y, and CyberTrucks? What would be the range? It seems like battery technology improves very slowly despite another new advance from media reports.
If I had to haul on the regular...I wouldn't consider it at all. If I have time get out and charge for 1/3rd of my trip....thats a giant waste of my time. I have to be on the road a minimum of 4 hours a clip.
LFP of CATL from last quarter of 2023 are more capable than this from BYD! Probably Tesla will switch to this LFP CATL battery! Energy density is far better! These battery are already in Huawei Avatar 12 and Zeekr 001
Surely the -20% recommended charging limit (80 vs 100) completely negates any range "advantage" the non-LFP batteries have. Sure, technically speacking on the sticker they have more range but how many people are willing to knowingly sacrifice the health and lifespan of their battery? In reality most people adopt the 80% limit and their daily experience will be 20% lower than the sticker.
Definitely not enough.Arrange period for a truck.That's terrible.Because once you start hauling some stuff or towing some stuff.You might only get a hundred and fifty miles
Hey Jon, here's a question that i haven't heard the answer yet. At what SOC is optimal for losing the least amount of energy over a said period of time. Which cell pack has the highest retention of energy ?
Tesla surly needs and i'm sure wants to extend the Range on the Cybertruck especially while towing! or they could add a second towing battery pack that didn't need to be used except when towing. like a full bed size battery that fits easily in and out for customers that tow or drive long distances. and it would also be awesome if they could make it compatable with the new high capicity Simi chargers! or they could actually make a battery powered Trailer in 3 sizes small for cars medium for Cybertruck and Large for Simi with batteries to compensate for the extra weight. and Solar to keep them trickle charged.
Batteries need to get better, not worse. Tesla is going backwards with LFP. When EVs hit th emarket, there was that promise that batteries will soon be much better. But the opposide is the case.
This is not true. Tesla has long been claiming that energy density is more than enough and the real improvements must come in cost efficiency. High energy/power density for the most high perf vehicles.
Just build a smaller truck like a maverick using newer lfp cells with a 100kwh pack. Big truck EVs still stuck until you get to the Silverado 200kwh pack.
Tesla is having to many problems getting NCM 4680 cells perfected to waste time trying to perfect another chemistry. Maybe 2-3 years from now when V3 4680s are delivered.
I dunno. I think the 100 people that don't know how lame this thing looks already have theirs. Not sure there will even be a 2025 Cybertruck. Haha ... I'm just being goofey like Musk. I'm sure there's still plenty of nerds out there saving their money to afford one.
This was pretty embarrassing to watch. You didn't properly do your research before making your claims. The 4680 batteries provide 0-percent structure to the battery packs. There are composite/metal rails dividing the batteries that are providing the structure to the battery packs. The 4680 batteries themselves, are just hanging from the top of the battery packs with a massive air gap below them before you get to the bottom shell of the battery packs. Go check out Sandy Munro's video of the Cybertruck teardown to see. You should have done that before making this video that continues to perpetrate the myth of the 4680 batteries providing any structure to Tesla's battery packs. Shame.
You missed the point of my video entirely... my video is factually correct and the Munro team said many of the same things I did. My point was that Tesla's original battery day structural pack design showed no extra structural rails - but the Cybertruck pack has them.
As an owner of a Tesla Model 3 with a LFP battery, I have to agree that the lower energy density LFP still offers an effective range not far below the long range Model 3s fitted with higher energy density nickel chemistry cells that are only charged to 80%. I suspect that over the longer term that LFP Teslas will have a greater resale value due to their more robust batteries.
LFP is the way to go. I wish my Model Y LR had them. Would love the faster charging and 100% charge rate. They are cheaper batteries too. I think Elon is making these calls. He needs to understand that EV owners want an ICE owner gas station experience. Mass EV adoption with faster charge times.
I think it likely it would be the LFP RWD cybertruck with all terrain tyres that would do 250 miles. All season more like 270-280. They don’t want to sell any variants with
I hope you are right!
Personally for any towing, living in the northern cold climate, for lack of charging infrastructure and remote access, still wanting 500plus mile range.
It will happen, just not yet. That is a niche as 90% of people don't need it. But once Cybertruck is ramped enough filling that niche will become worthwhile.
But let’s say the charger network is more extensive, you would then prefer faster charge times versus range. Spending only 10 minutes in station versus 30?
LFP still has room for improvement.
If BYD is to be believed, their new Blade 2 LFP batteries have a 23% improvement over Blade 1 (190Wh/Kg vs. 150 Wh/Kg)
Unless you don't use your EV for any long distance driving, range is king. Having the ability to charge beyond 80% when needed on long distance trips is important. My first EV, a 2019 Tesla Model 3 SR+ had a 240 mile EPA range estimate w/18" wheels (my Tesla had the 19" factory wheels so it actually got less than 240 mile range). I drove it from Dallas to Telluride, CO and regularly had to reduce speed below the posted speed limit when encountering unexpected headwinds to make it to the next Supercharger. Range anxiety was real. I did the same trip in my 2023 Model Y LR and the extra capacity of the LR's battery made the trip so much more easy. When LFP can match the range of NMC for long distance trips, I'll consider LFP.
Understood but if the charger network was more extensive you would prefer faster charging then range? I am of the opinion that we will have mass EV adoption with faster charge times, like ICE gas station fast.
@@Lduke32 and it will be induction charging soon enough
LFP Truck is the way to go.
I live 25 miles from town and drive a long range model Y. Typically I charge to 60% and drive about 150 miles in a day. I could easily use a cyber truck with LFP batteries. I
Occasionally tow boats, etc.
I would be excited for the rear wheel drive, 250 mile range cyber truck at $52,000. My needs/desires, do not merit a $61,000 vehicle.
man this thing better suck me and fvck me for 60,000 what happened to 39,000 price? lol tesla=trash
Those Blade batteries are 118mm tall too (vs 80 for the 4680), which would make use of that "empty" vertical space we see in the current CyberTruck packs. Probably not all of the space (rough guess from the munro videos) but quite a bit of it. Also worth note, BYD claims their new Blade 2 batteris have 190Wh/Kg, a 23% improvement compared to their current Blade1's 150Wh/Kg,.. presuamably what's in the current Teslas (Berlin Model Y?).
Lack of range is the biggest problem with the cybertruck. Had they achieved the promised 500+ miles they would have hit it out of the park.
LFP dual motor please
This would work for me.
I hope Tesla makes a LFP 4680 for the truck.
My perdiction is Tesla will drop the AWD Cybertruck to $60,000 and the Cyberbeast to $80,000. We will never see the single motor Cybertruck.
Nice perdiction
I'm fairly certain tesla has plans for a lower cost variant of the 4680 with a different chemistry that will negate the need to outsource the lfp pack.
Interesting calculations; thanks for sharing. Your starting point is that the cells need to fill the volume of the structural battery pack. Please clarify the volume of the Cybertruck battery pack and what capacity of LFP cells would fill that volume. My guess is more than 90kWh. ☮️
I had a 2022 MY 4680. It had 262mi range at 111k miles. Roughly 6% loss. It was weird for 3 months the "guessometer" said 200mi at 80%, about a week before the car got totalled it creeped closer to 210 mile range at 80%. Guess thats why they say "guessometer".
Thanks Jon! One issue for me...I think BYD blade cells don't qualify for IRA credit, so that doesn't seem fit the description that "Cybertruck is likely to qualify for the federal tax credit later in 2024."
There's definitely advantage to using 4680 form factor, as pack assembly would be identical to the existing pack. What about Panasonic's 5-tab NMC cell? With less active material, a battery pack made with these cells should have a lower energy, especially on earlier versions which should be more conservative.
Great points that I had not considered!
Panasonic's cells won't have lower energy density, if anything they'll come in higher. Tesla will simply use in-house cells and decontent the pack or wait until LFP production in Nevada is operational.
LFP will often make more sense for day to day use unless you cover mega miles and will last longer.
What if they offered LFP in the AWD versions of Model 3, Y, and CyberTrucks? What would be the range? It seems like battery technology improves very slowly despite another new advance from media reports.
You don’t know truck buyers. Will not consider 250 range . I would at 39k with 7500 tax credit but not at 60k without tax credit.
If I had to haul on the regular...I wouldn't consider it at all. If I have time get out and charge for 1/3rd of my trip....thats a giant waste of my time. I have to be on the road a minimum of 4 hours a clip.
Maybe it would attract suv buyers, such as myself.
LFP of CATL from last quarter of 2023 are more capable than this from BYD! Probably Tesla will switch to this LFP CATL battery! Energy density is far better! These battery are already in Huawei Avatar 12 and Zeekr 001
Do this same video with Tesla Semi
Surely the -20% recommended charging limit (80 vs 100) completely negates any range "advantage" the non-LFP batteries have.
Sure, technically speacking on the sticker they have more range but how many people are willing to knowingly sacrifice the health and lifespan of their battery?
In reality most people adopt the 80% limit and their daily experience will be 20% lower than the sticker.
Definitely not enough.Arrange period for a truck.That's terrible.Because once you start hauling some stuff or towing some stuff.You might only get a hundred and fifty miles
Hey Jon, here's a question that i haven't heard the answer yet. At what SOC is optimal for losing the least amount of energy over a said period of time. Which cell pack has the highest retention of energy ?
I concur :-)
Can they fit an 89kw battery pack in the Cybertruck, volumetric size?
The LFP chemistry is superior to the LI-ion cells. Charges as quickly if not quicker and doesn’t have the 80% limit.
LFP is still Li-Ion, just with an iron cathode chemistry instead of a nickel predominate one.
Rear wheel 500 mile cybertruck nickel
Possibly CATL M3P batteries ?????
Tesla surly needs and i'm sure wants to extend the Range on the Cybertruck especially while towing! or they could add a second towing battery pack that didn't need to be used except when towing. like a full bed size battery that fits easily in and out for customers that tow or drive long distances. and it would also be awesome if they could make it compatable with the new high capicity Simi chargers! or they could actually make a battery powered Trailer in 3 sizes small for cars medium for Cybertruck and Large for Simi with batteries to compensate for the extra weight. and Solar to keep them trickle charged.
I'd love to see LFP handle everything under 300 miles
How is -1C cold weather exactly?
show me 500 miles range
Batteries need to get better, not worse. Tesla is going backwards with LFP. When EVs hit th emarket, there was that promise that batteries will soon be much better. But the opposide is the case.
This is not true. Tesla has long been claiming that energy density is more than enough and the real improvements must come in cost efficiency. High energy/power density for the most high perf vehicles.
This statement is so wrong on so many levels. LFP is constantly improving and dramatically so.
Just build a smaller truck like a maverick using newer lfp cells with a 100kwh pack. Big truck EVs still stuck until you get to the Silverado 200kwh pack.
Tesla is having to many problems getting NCM 4680 cells perfected to waste time trying to perfect another chemistry. Maybe 2-3 years from now when V3 4680s are delivered.
The 250 mile vehicle is already out, that's what most people are getting in the real world.
I dunno. I think the 100 people that don't know how lame this thing looks already have theirs. Not sure there will even be a 2025 Cybertruck. Haha ... I'm just being goofey like Musk. I'm sure there's still plenty of nerds out there saving their money to afford one.
I hope so. Im sick tire of these spoiled fanboys flexing their over priced $120k trim.
We know it will be $61K, but with LFP it will be very exciting!
To many battery issues for me, and with degradation who wants a second hand one, we need better battery technology than these things 😮😮😮
LFP has low degradation though...
This was pretty embarrassing to watch. You didn't properly do your research before making your claims. The 4680 batteries provide 0-percent structure to the battery packs. There are composite/metal rails dividing the batteries that are providing the structure to the battery packs. The 4680 batteries themselves, are just hanging from the top of the battery packs with a massive air gap below them before you get to the bottom shell of the battery packs. Go check out Sandy Munro's video of the Cybertruck teardown to see. You should have done that before making this video that continues to perpetrate the myth of the 4680 batteries providing any structure to Tesla's battery packs. Shame.
You missed the point of my video entirely... my video is factually correct and the Munro team said many of the same things I did. My point was that Tesla's original battery day structural pack design showed no extra structural rails - but the Cybertruck pack has them.