What Is the Best Tier 7 Unit in Homm 3 Based on Cost Efficiency? - Finals
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- In this video, we are going to test what is the best Tier 7 Unit in Homm 3 based on cost efficiency. We will compare different units in a tournament format. As a result we will have the best tier 7 unit in Heroes of Might and Magic 3.
This video is the second of two parts of the tournament containing the finals.
The participants include the 16 tier 7 units from castle, rampart, tower, inferno, dungeon, necropolis, fortress, and fortress factions.
Tournament rules are:
Unit amount: - How many units of the type can be purchased with 1.000.000 gold
Units are divided into four stacks of equal size
AI controls the both armies
The primary skills of the heroes are minimized
None of the heroes have secondary skills
All heroes have Spirit of Oppression
None of the heroes have a specialty related to a creature to be tested
Heroes cannot use spells
The initial match-ups are decided by RNG
The units included: The units from the main game
(There might be a smaller tournament with expansion units & neutral units later, including top 2-4 of this tournament.
Morale is enabled in battles containing Angels or Arch Angels
The resource cost will be 1000 gold
I hope you enjoy the video :)
If you are a fan of Heroes 3 or play the game, check this video out. You learn new things about the game in terms of unit cost-effectiveness.
#heroesofmightandmagic3 #heroesofmightandmagic #heroes3
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Watching those angels all politely group up around a big stack of hydras
AND THEN
Brown behemoths approach the same foe with careful thought toward positioning, letting hydras get free damage only when it's from small, depleted stacks
"Dumb savage" behemoths acted smarter than God's chosen. Adversity creates mindfulness and intelligence; privilege creates carelessness and stupidity.
In this paper I will...
Indeed. Perhaps the AI is biased :D Thanks for the comment.
those are cyborgs, mindless machines, versus inteligent beasts
Behemoths: been challenged and had to fight for everything their whole life
Angels: everything was always easy until now
Another Bone Dragons facts:
1. They have lower attack and defence stats than Dread Knights. Furthermore - Ghost Dragons have the same total stats as Dread Knights (19 attack and 17 defence on Dragons vs 18/18 knights)
2. Hydras, Dragons and Serpents (Cove tier 7 units) can be converted into Bone Dragons in Skeleton Transformator
Nice, thanks for the information. Did not actually know about that point 2. :)
@@qualityoldhomm-rd3yu Cavaliers can also become Dread Knights there
@@averagelizard2489 Ah, additional new information. Thank You! Then again, sounds logical :)
@@averagelizard2489 that is not true, everything else except the units mentioned at point 2 become skeletons... Even bone dragons themselves
@@CristianCiupe What do you mean? I myself tried it out and know that it is true.
Yay! This is the only tier where I predicted the winner correctly. Also, AI controlling ancient behemoths against hydras was painful to watch )
Congrats :) Yea, the AI is not at its brightest in these tests, unfortunately. Thanks for the comment.
all in one stack, ancients win easy too
this is by far the most fair, and useful experiment ever in homm3 youtube.
I also suggest that remove obstacle should be included.
+ is there no advantage regarding land type?(desert steppe forest etc.)
what if we do the experiment only with upg lvl7?
Thank You! I am doing a bit similar series.
About terrain, I have tried to select it so that no one receives bonuses.
Remove obstacle, imo there are arguments for and against it. Usually the maps are not fully flat but perhaps we lose some reliability. --> I am not sure :)
1 res costing 1000 gold seems very inaccurate and it probably threw the balance heavily in favor of unupgraded units.
Thanks for the comment. It was polled when the decision was made. In Marketplace, the most optimal trade rate is 1000 gold --> resource (9+ Marketplaces). In trading post it would cost 1667 gold. But ofc, that is debatable :)
@@qualityoldhomm-rd3yu I mean, market is just used to trade excess goods for 1-2 of things that you need. A better way to calculate the value of a resource would be the amount of gold required to buy the troops necessary to fight your way through to claim the resource/capture the mine on the map. Obviously that is hard to estimate the range of and rather map dependant. But in practice, the value of a resource is absolutely never as high as it's market price.
I think the best idea is to ask the opion of pro players that play this game for sport. But it will never be the end all be all I guess. xD This is what makes this game so fun because every scenario is different. But we humans, do have a good feel to make sound judgements while on a game; so the value ratio is never actually arbitrary. It's just very hard to estimate pin pointly.
I think this experiment in the video is very valuable as it provides good data when the map is completely resource starved. But going off with some pro players' estimation would also be valuable to enlargen the data. It makes things more fun.
I would have enabled the use of one spell: Remove Obstacle. This would help even out the battlefield by avoiding pathing issues.
Thanks for the comment. Agreed that it could have affected some of the results :)
All hail the Behe
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
Well done with these videos, mate!
Thank You! :)
I wonder how well would hydras do with one stack vs 5 stacks of enemies (of the same total amount of units). They could utilise their ability more that way. It would also require a significant amount of controlling for the simple impact of stacking the groups, though.
Thanks for the comment. I agree that Hydras would benefit quite a lot from that kind of stacks. :)
so the ancient behemoth loses against hydras but the normal one wins? cmon
I think you didn't understand the assignment
There were 2,5 times more of the normal ones :) Thanks for the comment.
funny how all the creatures I found the least exciting as a kid tend to do the best in these tests
Thanks for the comment. Indeed, same for me. I think the main reason is that they don't cost those special resources and are otherwise cheap as well :)
Interesting video.
If you feel like including Cove and/or Conflux in the future, that would be interesting.
"But then there is 9 different creatures, so the format does not work", I hear you say. However, there is a simple fix for that: 32-parties elimination (as opposed to 16 as it was in these), and repeat all creatures but the winner and bronze final winner of the last time around and the Cove/Conflux creature.
So, in this case if Conflux was added, Behemoths won and Hybras became Bronze finals winners. So there would be only one Behemoth, one Hydra, one of both Phoenixes. The rest of the creatures, including upgraded Behemoth and Hydra, would have two competing spots with random enemies.
Yes, the tournament would be twice as large. However, it would also give some light on whether those Creatures that lost were just unlucky in their match-ups, or if having twice the opportunity does not matter because that particular creature was just plain inefficient.
Just my two cents. Just removing the winners of Finals and Bronze Finals would also keep the format as it is, then we just won't know if the winners were just lucky or not. :b
Thanks for the detailed and good suggestion. Next week the winners tournament will be released complemented by Azure dragons and Fire birds. So, perhaps it will tackle some of the issues you mentioned.
Additionally, I am starting to test a new format next week that should take into account the issues you mentioned. Let's see how well it will work :)
I have another idea, that could also allow close result matches losers to show how they would perform against someone else: make "lucky losers" (similar to skijumping 4-hill tournament) also take part: in first round take as many creatures you like, winners pass to 2nd round + fill fields with losers that killed most % of victorious army.
Well, here the behemoths have overall a major advantage since their ability does much more against strong units with a lot of defence than it does bigger stacks of weaker enemies.
True, and they are really cheap :) Thanks for the comment.
So it's about just buy simple Behemoths and don't upgrade them to get away cheaper and use a great mage hero to be up for a good battle where the outcome mostly favors you.
Thanks for the comment. I guess it depends on what is the limiting factor in the situation. If it is money, then I guess simple behes will work fine. But if it is growth, upgraded units will work better :)
Idea *
The most cost-efficient unit from the game (all towns, all tiers)
Thanks for the suggestion. Planning on doing that :)
Final tournament
@@Johnson-ut6br Indeed. :)
@@qualityoldhomm-rd3yu My bet on Gorgon or Dendroid Guard
@@Johnson-ut6br speaking of dendroid guards - totally agree, it'll be the winner imo. But 2nd-3rd place i'd gave to ogres and stone golems
Really feels like certain creatures got massively cucked by terrain and performed a lot worse as a result. Oh well, at least the final was crushing and one-sided as predicted
Thanks for the comment. The AI seemed to struggle especially against Hydras. :)
Good games never die :)
Absolutely agreed on that :) Thanks for the comment.
Ancient Behemoths should have won vs. Hydras, but autocombat made anything to prevent it.
Thanks for the comment. Yea, the AI has so next level strats that we mere mortals have some difficulties at grasping them at times ;D
Im not a expert at all speaking heroes 3,curious why you decided to put red dragons instead of black ones vs upgraded behemeots?
Thanks for the good question. All tier 7 creatures participated in the tournament. The initial pairs were determined by RNG and they progressed according to certain rules :)
Wouldn't having Crag Hack (Adv Offence), Tazar (Adv Armourer) and Mephala (Basic Armourer) alter the outcome?
Usually it would have. In this case all of the secondary skills have been removed so their special traits should not have affected the outcome. Thanks for the question :)
Bizzare that Behemoths are cheaper than bones dragons .
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
I imho don't think so. Bones have much higher speed, lowers morale and can reach over walls and clustered enemies. In addition they can stack when other tier 7's are transformed. Also HP and attack are very similar.
@@LeporidaeanDream Sure but behes have their advantage too . Bone dragons is just stats , and not particularly many .
@@shadowpriest2574 Because of the necromancy skill and transformer, Necropolis will over time grow too strong. I feel these stats account for that - some already calls it the ultimate team and it may well be. Upgraded bone dragons can unleash aging on perhaps half the opposing team and then it's smooth sailing.. Behemoths are expert tanks, so if they can surpass castle walls with teleport - ouch! I stand with the gold hoarding Rampart which must be the antithesis to death = nature/life. Can't have one without the other. It's intriguing that all teams are based on opposites.
@@LeporidaeanDream Sure , but The same logic does not apply for easier things to obtain. Wyverns can be cheated out with serpent hives , yet they are the ceapest lvl 7 unit. Also, Bone dragons being stackable with other dragons via The skeleton transformer is true , but its probably a strategy even more rare than Draggongeddon. I find it bizzare that they would not be The cheapest , with that line of reasoning .
ehhm, the stacking really fucked over the Ancients, put em all in one stack, and i think they win by a landslide, that and factor in the AI, its like the Hydra got to attack x3 as much without retalliation lol, but fun nontheless
Thanks for the comment. Yea, there are differences about the stacks. In single stack, some abilities are useless etc. so it is always finding a balance. Additionally, imo there are quite a few of the 1-stack tests in UA-cam alraedy, so I try to do something a bit newer :)
Can You explain to me why 1 res cost 1000gold?
Thanks for the question. That seemed the most appropriate amount after some testing. :) Imo it is kind of balanced as usually one does not need to buy all the resources and often the rate to trade is not as favorable.
I feel angels are dumb and behemoths are the most op gym bros
Agreed at least on this case :) Thanks for the comment.
Ooof, this is bogus my man. The cost effectiveness drives subpar units to be on the top, while they are actually... well, behemots are fine, nothing to write home about, but skeletal dragons? They are unmatched garbage in tier 7. I've had games where I sacrificed them to the transformer out of spite and confidence that my skeletons/ vampires will get the job done.
Thanks for the comment. But they are cheap. Imo, in some cases the price of the units matters even though in most cases the main limiting factor is the weekly growth. If the case is the latter, I fully agree with you :)
There is no way to beat those many behemonts
Yea, quite impressive how cheap they actually are :) Thanks for the comment.
Ok, but dragons are immune to magic, if a hero was pelting the other team with chain lightning or blind it could have significantly different outcome.
Fully agreed on that one. These tests only take some aspects into account at best :) Thanks for the comment.
a test that straight up ignores the advantages of a unit and just mindlessly charges in while clumping up for AoE, or not even trying to use there own AoE, is hardly an effective test at measuring cost efficiency. the only thing this test showed is, "who wins when you play like a toddler that has no concept of strategy." when a units power budget is balanced around its mobility and speed, and then you just completely ignore those things as you mindlessly charge in, and give up your entire advantage of speed and mobility, that makes your test entirely pointless. wheres the devils waiting, and then getting two attacks in before the slower guy even gets a single attack in? where is the gold dragons using its speed and mobility to its advantage while utilizing the terrain to completely negate damage from enemies that cant even reach them. its almost like they planned and balanced the game around those sort of things, and your "test" completely ignores those kinds of things.
Wow, thanks for the detailed criticism :)
Do you know of any mods that improve the AI in the game? I chose both sides to be controlled by AI because that makes things kind of equal for both sides. Another approach could have been to manually control both sides but then there would have been endless complaints about why you did not do this at turn x, and that at turn y.
In any case, I am planning to make another series that should tackle most of the issues you mentioned above :)
I unfortunately do have to agree, an then some people think that test this is accurate, Speed doesn't nearly as much credit as it should in this test, with fast units, you can kite, get more movement on your hero, start the battle (which means you get to cast first, which in many cases decides the winner of the battle), and how you can wait and double hit, this leads to units like the Chaos Hydra getting too much credit, and units like Archangels are being given way less, not only that, in some cases the unit's abilities are being ignored, like flr example how strong the 80% Defense ignore ability is for Ancient Behemoths, and of course, the final battle between the 2 heroes are at the very least going to have 10 attack and defense, which already makes a huge different, another example is the Archangel's Clone ressurection strategy, the resurrection ability of the Archangels are being used poorly, and some other abilities get their absolute full credit, like the Chaos Hydras's no enemy retaliation ability, and then there is the poor Black Dragon with really good utility, but it gets no credit, because no spells are being casted, and it's just a brawl with absolutely zero strategy, which makes this list very inaccurate, but at least it is somewhat interesting to look at these creature's brawling abilities, which is pretty cool, I still do respect the amount of effort that he puts into these videos tho.
@@averagelizard2489 Thanks for the comment. Good points. Let's see if the How Good Is series will alleviate at least some the issues :)
IMHO red dragon cuz can resurrect
Thanks for the comment. :)
heroes 3 have sometim3 funy secret pasives
in polish version titans hate blacks XDDDD
also in polish mumuy cursing that funny cuse in polish cursing mean same what swearing
Thanks for the comment. I think the hate between Titans and Black Dragons is also in the English version :)
@@qualityoldhomm-rd3yu yeah but probaly in english its actualy "hate black dragons" in polish many times i see only "hate black"
@@bartolcherry2200 Ah, now I got it :) Thanks for the clarification.
@@bartolcherry2200Titans would be cancelled in 2024.