Mormon Bishops Discuss Their Experiences | Ep. 1862
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Content warning: mentions of child ab*se, assault, suicid*lality
Four former Mormon Bishops - Beau, Nick, Jedd, and Rob - have an intimate discussion about the oft-hidden realities of serving in Mormon leadership, including the lack of training on handling abuse cases, near-suicidal stress levels, the painful contradictions between doctrine and human needs, and the ways bureaucratic priorities seem to trump pastoral care. With empathy and nuance, they peel back the curtain on issues like LGBTQ exclusion, leader worship, doubted spiritual 'gifts', unhealthy perfectionism, and the people left wounded when conference talks supersede mental health expertise - all while recognizing the very real human desire to do good amidst institutions not structured to support it.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Nick's interview: ua-cam.com/users/livejuI-FVmU4OU
Beau Ostler on Saane Siale's interview: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Panel Intro
00:14:00 How a bishop is called
00:21:35 The process of selecting a bishop
00:26:23 Beau called as bishop after tragic death
00:33:25 Starting out as a bishop
00:35:25 List of experiences as bishops
00:39:00 Asking questions
00:50:57 Rewarding experiences as a bishop
00:56:43 Being a counselor vs being a bishop
00:58:25 Would they turn down being a bishop?
01:17:38 The church behaves EXACTLY like a corporation
01:21:50 Official rules vs tradition
01:35:35 An application for Stake President
01:46:10 Resources for believing members and bishops
01:51:45 Why DOESN’T the Church supply training for leaders?
02:00:00 Why are they talking about all of this as ex-bishops?
02:15:15 Seeing the world in full color outside of Mormonism
02:22:20 Biggest regrets as Mormon Bishop
02:50:35 Lightning Round
03:13:00 User comments/superchats
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I was a Mormon Bishop's wife. I would be interested in hearing more from the wifes' perspective. When my husband went from being bishop to inactive I received no help from the "brethren" I ended up going to see a Catholic Nun to try and help me sort things. Catherine Australia
It would be great to do a bishop's wives panel, moderated by Margi. That would also acknowledge today's bias in the male only panel.
@@charlesmendeley9823that's a good idea
@@charlesmendeley9823 it's not bias, it's reality. Women can't be bishops, this is an ex-bishop panel. I'm a woman and I'd love to hear a wives panel, for the record.
❤. Good Idea.
I like that idea!! Bishop’s wife panel. I think they have a lot to share too!!
My dad was a bishop and my mom a relief society president during my teen years. When I needed them most (and my 12 siblings) they were too busy helping everyone else. I wish that one day they will come to the realization that the church isn’t true but sadly I don’t ever see that happening and they will never truly know me or my siblings that have left the church. This church tears families apart.
I am not Mormon but I believe since I as a mother to a Mormon son.... when he became a bishop then Stake ? he became different and disowned his Catholic family ,sisters his mother ...it has hurt so much so much... I just will never understand... His Mother
🫂 I'm so sorry you & your siblings did not have the parents you all needed due to corporate control. Pls know you are loved and priceless ❤️
@estellagutierrez4615 I'm so sorry this culture does this to individuals & families. I know the pain, it's very real ❤ praying for your heart to be healed with love 🫂
I feel you and send you so much love and compassion. I share your experience and pain - my father was always in the bishopric for as long as I can remember. He was never at home.
I was suicidal from the age of 11, throughout my teen years. My parents never even noticed that something might not be right. I was conditioned to have no needs and most certainly never to speak out about my needs or my struggles.
I had no relationship with my father then, and have no relationship with him (or my mother) now.
The mormon church absolutely tears families apart.
@@estellagutierrez4615that's sad
Mormon stories should have a monthly episode of former church leaders discussing their callings. Call it the “high counsel”
I would definitely watch that!
Or Dear Abby shorts!!!!!
This is a great idea! More transparency!!
Completely agree. This is the most valuable content. It's the pure truth of "how the sausage is made." People need to hear this.
Yes! Or the “Human Council” because when you step out of the church you learn not to put yourself above another person. We’re all just human along the journey of life like every one else. 😊
I was the wife of a narcissistic man who became a narcissistic bishop (2009-2014.) He said his focus was on "pleasing Heavenly Father"; however, his actions were him constantly seeking after a pat on the back from the stake leaders and older men in the ward, micro-managing the RS President and all the affairs of the ward. Ugh! He needed the praise desperately. It was a very horrible, lonely five years for me. I realized early on that I had neither a husband nor a bishop I could go to. I left our 33-year marriage after he was released and resigned my membership shortly thereafter. Life is so much more joyful and peaceful on the other side of all the dysfunction in my marriage and Church membership!
Far too many narcissists and emotional abusers in leadership positions. The story is all too common. Spiritual abuse is real in addition to the normal psychological abuse the partners of these people experience.
Amen !
❤
❤
Congratulations Sandra! You deserve that freedom 😊
It's cathartic to hear bishops being honest and human for a change.
More are coming out!
As a never before Mormon who watches Mormon stories very regularly, I can say this was one of my most impactful episodes. These four men were obviously so torn between being unable to do what they knew in their heart was the right thing, and doing what the church expected of them. Which was so far removed from the right thing. I applaud their courage and commitment to “Choosing the right.” Thanks John for all you do. Much respect!!
I'm a Never mo too. What this proves is that it's the system that is the problem not the people. These guys are lovely, hands tied by a corporation
Beau was my seminary teacher circa 2008. One time he made an entire Passover meal for us at 6:30am. I can’t say I was able to pay much attention to the lessons but I could always tell he really cared about us.
He seems like an exceptionally cool guy.
It's very clear that we're watching several very christ-like individuals that tried incredibly hard to do the right thing in a system that doesn't always support that goal. There's a lot to be learned here.
One of the best podcast episodes I have ever heard. I don’t ever comment on YT videos but this deserves the recognition and promotion with likes and comments to boost visibility. Huge thank you to all 4 men for being so vulnerable, honest, and thoughtful.
That’s a great comment. You should comment on YT more often. It’s a great way to help the video creators you enjoy. If I don’t have time to leave a comment, I just leave a quick emoji comment to help out the channel. 😊
I'm an atheist. TOTALLY fascinated with Mormons.. the brainwashing involved in any religion fascinates me! But always seems to be happy inside when an ex-mormon comes to light. IT IS MENTAL.
All my love n support vibes from the UK 🇬🇧 ❤️
Run for the hills lol!!
My parents were Mormons and I was baptized at 8 years of age, stayed active in the church for several years. and had many callings. In Sunday School I corrected the Lawyer/Bishop about how he incorrectly interpreted a Book of Mormon statement, and he went red in the face and shouted at me in the chapel of all places.. I was a Seminary student from an early age, taught the Book of Mormon (BOM) as well and read the book several times too. Joseph Smith, the founder, used several other ancient text's that he bought from the Navaho Indians and the BOM is not a divine revelation as he claimed it to be.. Now I am an atheist and love the freedom to be true to my inner self.
This! Same here! This is such a place of learning
😂😂😂Yes!👏🏾
With you totally as a Never Mo fascinated by Mormonism. Oh sorry! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Daysism.
Oh it is mental. Mental indeed.
Thank you for standing up for including women in leadership! I grew up as a woman in the church and was taught not to even trust my own voice or thoughts in the face of the priesthood and it did me a lot of harm and it’s been hard to recover from. I was suddenly crying with joy to hear y’all standing up for me and my sisters.
Yes! I loved hearing the representation and support for women leadership and women’s voices. So much!
Agreed! But the problem is that those who have this attitude and paradigm leave or are run out. Those who stay (in leadership) don’t believe the same.
Mormon men are so mean and gross. You definitely deserve better.
These men even after so many years are still hurting and how cathartic it must have been for them to sit next to brothers and see themselves and what they have been dealing with in others. What a powerful loving moment for you all.
Rob seems so wise. The way he spoke about his wife and daughters and his evolving mindset was very touching. I hope in time he shares his story.
💯 agree!!!!
This is one of the most powerful episodes I’ve listened to. I left the church January 2022 and my husband was called into bishopric back in 2015, when we had three very young kids and the youngest being 2 months old. That was so hard for me because I wanted to say “NO! Don’t do this calling. I need your help with three young kids. I can’t do this alone.”
But I ended up doing it alone cause I had to support him. I began to become incredibly resentful of how a god could call my husband AWAY from his family. Nope. I just never agreed to this. I just had to go with it. NOT anymore! I’m done with the church. I’m done conforming. No more. I’ve taken back my autonomy and my life….and my husband and I have a much better marriage now. ❤
Amen to that. My father was bishop back in the ‘60s with a wife & 3 young sons. It took us a while (my bros & I served missions & I became Elders Quorum Pres while my bro was a counselor in the bishopric) but we all eventually saw the light & got the hell out. Life is so much better now.
I agree with you. I served in many positions in the church including a branch presidency after being a member or only 1 year. I have also served on the High Council and sat on courts for excommunication with no training what so ever. I have been a member for 46 years and have not been to a meeting in 5 years. I have 2 daughters and they are both inactive as well. When I was on the Council, I was never home....how can a so called "family oriented" church do this to their leaders. The one thing that has caused me to fall away is the hiding of the money, but also with the dwindling of membership, why are they building 20 new temples this year alone? My son-in-law and I both feel this is nothing more than a land grab to increase the wealth of the church. I am so disillusioned by all that is happening. I still have my faith, but it isn't in the LDS church.
As a 60 yo non-Mormon who has lived in Utah my entire life, I have always known that the Mormon Church was off, especially because of the way I, as well as my kids, have been mistreated throughout the years. But I’ll tell you what, it thoroughly sickens me to hear how the church has mistreated ALL of its members, even the members who still don’t even realize it yet. I have incredible friends who are Mormon, my boss was a bishop, and another (Mormon) boss walks around like he’s ready to implode at any moment due the stresses of guilt, I’m sure, he’s under. It sincerely breaks my heart knowing that I really don’t even know how they’ve been made to feel throughout their lives, but watching this channel has opened my eyes so much more. I am a spiritual person and I just pray that more eyes can be opened and hearts are enlightened to the absolute abuse that is inflicted upon the people of this church. This channel is an amazing opening for them and I sincerely hope and pray that more people (of all organized faiths) discover it for the sake of their souls. They deserve so much better than what they’re paying for! Literally. 🙏😔💞
wOw! It really is shocking when you see the wizard, isn’t it?! The underbelly is even darker than I expected. The Stepford Wives meets a Handmaid’s Tale just scratches the surface. The abuse hangs over the valleys like an inversion layer. So many beautiful people feeling shame and unworthiness, and most of it manufactured for control and power (but mostly money). This kind of transparency and vulnerability and honesty is key to healing. This is amazing.
Nonmembers who live in these communities are wonderful and many have provided a great safe space for exiting friends and myself. Big thanks to you all for that!
I lived in SLC and while I had wonderful Mormon friends who treated me as an equal, there were others who either ignored me or tried to. There were others who were super superficially and insincerely friendly. I found that the hardest thing to take
@@flufwixI have a friend who ran a business in Cedar City, not a MO, and he said that the Mormons were the Nicest Mean people he’d ever met!
@@carihuston8929 Well, I'm from there. Born in the 70s. Can't say he's not correct, but the reasons vary. I realized as an adult that the people I went to church with in my neighborhood I knew really well. I was raised in one old stable part of town until adulthood. The ones who didn't go to church, for whatever reason, you just don't know them. There are tons of layers of knowing people too. It's historically an insular place where even LDS who aren't from the area can't make friends. LDS are very very very family oriented and busy. If you live away from the area then your "ward" family takes over. Outside of high LDS concentrated places, then ward family is more tight knit and lean on each other more.
The core decency of these men is so evident you can’t help but admire their Willingness to share.
Such beautiful, empathic men. If all bishops were like these men, the LDS church would be such a beautiful shining beacon of humanity. But these men were “othered” by the church and it’s a crying damn shame. I am so proud of these lovely gentlemen. They give me hope of a future where love is the law. ❤
I agree they’re good men - but nothing could actually save The LDS Church.
They’d have to throw out The Book of Mormon, and all their modern “Prophets”, and most of their extra-Biblical claims.
That is the CHRIST OF THE BIBLE HIS WORK our faith..alone and relationship vs religion.
This video should be required viewing for all serving bishops.
I began listening and couldn't stop. This group of men is so impressive. They are thoughtful, smart, compassionate and brave. I wish I knew them all personally! Thanks to you all for your sharing a very personal part of your lives. I'm sure it will make a huge difference in many people's lives.
These men gave so much of their soul to the Mormon church and the church did so little for them. I’m speechless.
What stands out to me is the kindness in each you. Each of you represents God's kindness to the people around you. Your families and communities are blessed to have you.
Yeah, and as more step forward, I wager we’ll see just what a tremendous amount of them there are. It’s their good works and women with hearts like them on whose backs the church has ridden and still ride. This is a large part of the good in the church of which people speak. For every bad bishop out there, it’s likely there are 2 good ones. And in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, if you’ll pardon the mouthful, (you’re welcome, mom) No bishops trained. Just Don’t say the M word or do the m thing.
Matt Lyon was a wonderful good friend of mine. He was a beautiful deeply kind man. Glad Beau held him as he passed from this world.
It was a very, very sad story💔
So sorry for the loss of your sweet friend 🪻🩵🙏
Please also do a chat with the Bishop’s wives panel. That would be very interesting!
That would be several episodes speaking from experience 🙋♀️ the harsh unrighteous judgments even down to letters self righteous "sisters" send to a bishop's wife telling her how horrible of a job she's doing as bishop's wife 🤷♀️ no such calling! Just keeping a low profile playing the part of a geographic single mother. Sisters are cruel animals.
I agree!
Yes!
This is like group therapy on video...so amazing....staff meeting beautiful.I'm a female,Jewish therapist. This is touching and vulnerable.I pray this helps many people.The love is felt Beau! Makes me feel not alone just as a human!
Thank you so much for your openess. I was born and raised in the church. Utah mormonism has haunted my entire life. I'm now 70 years old and am allowing myself to address the broad shame I've lived with my entire life. I'm very angry... i was brainwashed and treated horribly. Shame shame on the LDS church. I've not loss my love for God and Jesus. Amen to no walls around that.
I’m 69 and male. Got to carry a load of guilt around myself back in the day. No more, though. Out of the cult & loving it.
Ahh you have come into HIS GRACE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS PAID IN FULL ...The righteous walk in faith .. His blood vs false religion...doctrine of Mormonism IS false ..vs SCRIPTURE, another Jesus and gospel
Nick has so much charisma and is so well-spoken.
I hope that when he is more whole and recovered, he continues to make his voice heard. He has a lot of wisdom and natural intellect to share, and I think many people would love to hear him talk more.
Do you know how AWESOME it is to hear these wonderful men come together and share things that validate member experiences?!! SO many things are being brought to the light thanks to Mormon Stories and brave men who aren’t afraid to share their truth!
Thank you a thousand times and bless you all a million times over!
It truly is beautiful and peaceful on the outside!
Honesty was appreciated, validation with out a doubt, no flinches. Thanks
Definitely one of the best shows. I'd love to see the ladies version of this roundtable, then maybe hear from grown children of Bishops and women leaders and how it affected their childhoods, and ultimately how it has affected their current beliefs.
As an exmormon and the son of an ex-bishop, ex-stake, ex-mission president and current temple president this discussion has helped me understand my father and mother so much more. The amount of love you all have for your ex-congregations and people in your lives is palpable. Thank you for helping me understand them more.
This is a powerful watershed moment for Mormon Stories!
Yes. One of the most important episodes in my 9 years of listening to Mormon Stories.
The big elephant in the room is that these Mormons bishops, as accomplished as they were in their professional lives, had no training in human psychology, sexuality, etc, but have the responsibility to deal with all aspects of human life! It’s totally unfair to dump such levels of responsibility on them. The Mormon church may be the only religion without a trained clergy(maybe others do too).
Jehovah's Witnesses are structured very similarly which is odd they seem like twins in in many ways, the clergy are not trained and have day jobs as well.
I am glad you pointed this out. This is something I could never about the LDS. I lived in Utah for 3 years(not a Mormon). These are ordinary Joes who are given this “calling”. There isn’t any real training. At least with the other religions there’s decades long training. From Masters degrees to Phds.
Mormans are the devils conterfeit...Jehovahs Wittnesses have the truth... and they are not structed the same
@@rosehannah4845
I agree that they need training, but they are not the only church that puts leaders in place without formal training.
I am astounded. As a Lutheran pastor with a 5 year theological degree, plus another almost 2 years of practical education+introductory training, I still feel like I've got too little of everything.
This is so inspiring to me. My dad was the Bishop all through my teens. Everyone loved him, all the youth thought he was the coolest. Only recently (I am 49 now and have stepped away from the church) he began to open up to me about his struggle, anger, lack of training, strict policies and frustration he had when serving as Bishop (that was in So. Calif) Thank you for stepping into this brave space. So much support for these stories and messages. ❤
Our kids went without so much growing up and caused much stress in our family, Trying to be full tithe payers… Life was soo hard back then… So grateful we have left.. It feels like being free from a prison life of some sort Thank you gentlemen for sharing your bishop stories… What good men you are for being vulnerable to help others in there struggles… It takes time to untangle the mess the Church causes mentally… May God Bless you all 💕
Thank you to all five of you. Thank you Bo for the idea - you are right, the love is palpable and I’m not even in the room. You all are heroes in this world ❤
This is ... absolutely ... one of the MOST important Mormon Stories episodes EVER released. More bishop mormons and ex-bishops, please speak out! I can't imagine anything being more powerful or truth-centering for me if I stumbled on this as a youth or young adult. I love the Washington Post's slogan, "Democracy Dies in Darkness." There is so much powerful, empowering, truth here, for ALL LDS church members and ex-members. Sending so much gratitude to these brave, honest, bishops. Have no shame. You are honorable.
Thank you for this episode! I would also love to hear experiences from the women’s leadership roles in the church, Primary, Young Women’s and Relief Society Presidencies, and even Bishop’s wives. Perhaps in a future episode?
I hope so! All of the above!
“A loss of confidence in their ability to command” could not put it better. Thank you to all these lovely people for being vulnerable and generous with sharing their anguish and joy.
My husband was a bishop. He was chastised by our SP for not asking more detailed sexual questions in interviews. He was also reprimanded for wearing a tan suit. Also reprimanded for an innovative testimony meeting when all the speakers that day fell through. Then he was told to go home and quiet me for my advocacy on FB. He was released due to boundary changes but I think they were relieved to have an excuse to get rid of us. My husband was beloved by the ward. He was the only bishop not interviewed when the new stake was created at the time he was released.
Leadership did you both a favor, a kind of compassionate release, so you could continue on your spiritual journey. They're still miserable but you are free. And your ward friends still remember the love.
Your husband was treated appallingly!!
You're better off without those evil people.
This podcast will help so many members of the Church who feel trapped and suffocated to escape and flee from this control mechanism. This is fantastic! Thank you!🙏💜💫
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Beau, Nick, Jedd, and Rob: as a never-Mormon, I want to thank you for giving us all a glimpse behind the “veil”. The miracles, hardships, and regrets you have experienced are very real and very important to forming who you are today. Thank you for all you have done for your wards, your families and friends, as well as the people you will help in the future, starting with this video that you guys have made. I wish all four of you the very best in your future endeavours.
I really hope that anyone who's on the edge of deconstructing will watch this and find inspiration. What a deep reservoir of knowledge and insight. Thank you for sharing, men!
Quite a podcast! How often do we get to see men who actually have developed emotionally and are this evolved. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us!
Do you mean it's rare for men in general, or that it's rare for Mormon men or bishops?
@@charlesmendeley9823 unfortunately in my personal experience, which is obviously subjective I have not seen too many emotionally evolved men in general with that said since I moved to USA I have mostly lived amongst Mormons and I hope that’s not the case across the board and hopefully the younger gen is doing better than the previous ones.
@@charlesmendeley9823 I definitely think it’s a major issues with the Mormon men because they don’t have any tools to cope with the real world. They live in this made up world of magical thinking and imaginary powers of priesthood while most seriously struggle with depression, anxiety, dissociation etc. I don’t know if any Mormon men even have the vocabulary to start those conversations and seek help.
I was really touched by just about everything Bishop Jed said. The fact that he exists or existed in Riverton just brings me healing. Utah holds such trauma for me because of Mormonism.
Rob’s story especially touched me. Holy cow, what an incredible balance of serving country, church and family. Great wisdom. Thank you for sharing.
Jana, 30 yrs Utah, now Gig Harbors
Thank you for this episode. Beau, it was great having you as a Bishop. Appreciate the vulnerability from all.
The bond these men formed and the common respect and affection they demonstrated is certainly felt by this listener. ❤
Mormon Stories is gaining some serious traction!!!
Yes, we are still waiting for David Archuleta to give an epic 13 hour interview. 🥰🏳️🌈
One of the best episodes ever. As the son of a bishop/stake president/area authority/temple worker, and a former branch president myself, so much of this conversation resonates with me. Thank you for your honesty and vulnerability, all of you.
Heather Daybell's interview on how women are treated in the church was so enlightening. She would be a wonderful guest as she shares her experiences as a stake relief society president. Great podcast with these wonderful men.
Definitely!!!
This was SOOOO GOOD! My favorite so far. Thank you for doing this Beau, Nick, Rob ( my personal favorite), and Jed. Each one added so much. What a fantastic panel. Each one touched my heart. Thank you for caring about people first. ❤❤❤
Wow! This was so powerful. Thank you so much to these gentlemen for their honesty and vulnerability. Also, can someone do me a favor and the next time Nick says, "'I'm just a construction worker.", please remind him that Jesus was just a carpenter? The wisdom and kindness embodied in these gentlemen is beautiful!
A neighbor who is a member of the bishopric as well as a directing leader of the Interpreter Foundation just gave a fireside talk about proving the church is true. He said it is possible to prove the church is true “depending on the standard of proof.” It seems like he redefined the definition of “proof” and made sure it doesn’t include evidence. The mental gymnastics is impressive!
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
The church was a sow’s ear from the get-go & always will be because a leopard can’t change its spots.
This really was one of the best episodes. I really appreciate Nick Jones felt so passionately against polygamy and D&C 132. I don't find that men tend to see that the way Nick does. So, thank you Nick. That's validating for us women.
Polygamy is a “twin relic of barbarism” along with slavery. Utah would not have been admitted to the Union had it not formally abandoned the disgusting practice. It was so wrong from the beginning - a proof that the practice derived from Joseph’s lust & not from a fair, just & loving god (if god exists at all)
I am a 79 year old non Morman , I’ve been watching morman stories for a year or so. I’m enjoying this podcast very much. Keep up the good work!
Who has NOT experienced sexual abuse as child? At this point it seems fair to ask this way around, after listening to many of the Mormon stories.
It’s like the scandals in the catholic and other churches, the higher the shame the higher the sexual abuse, because low self worth and ignorance of predators seems a prime breeding ground.
I for one command the amazing people who make themselves vulnerable on these public platforms to shine a light. True inspiration.
It's astonishing. Sexual repression breeds abuse.
Yes. Not just in churches (Islam too). We heard about gymnastics teams where coaches and doctors SA gymnasts. Jim Jordon was an assist wrestling coach at OSU where wrestlers were abused by doctor (victims said knew and did nothing). Now there are the sick stories of SA in WWE. People in positions of abusing
Heard of it. The gymnastics scale was… of a speechless dimension. How one person can so effectively (meaning in so many victims, pretty much all the girls is my understanding) do these acts for so long .
The things with churches is that there is a whole system around it with so many layers of abuse possible, that it likely attracts and enables these types. I
Yes it's very common but that's a very broad statement. No one in my birth family, my immediate family or married children's family have been SA. I know that doesn't make up a lot of people but there are those who haven't been SA. Prayers for all that have been.
Hi, there is a context for the statement. If you read it again it’s there. It’s an ironic expression of pain because so many Mormon Stories include sexual abuse and I went “not again” in my head so many times. .With couple interviews, sometimes both people have experienced it. Also, there is a number of unseen abuse victims because it’s a tough and shame inflamed topic. If my family member or somebody in authority abused me I certainly wouldn’t volunteer that, but these brave people do and publicly so we can learn.
If nobody you know was abused, that’s great, like really awesome.
I'm an adult convert who is on the way out. At times in the past I've been PIMO* but I've tried to be TBM because having a community is important to me. In the last couple of months I haven't even attended church.
Why? Because I went to see my bishop. With difficulty I confided that I was at risk of losing my faith-not just my Mormon faith but my lifelong Christianity; with more difficulty I confided I was suicidal at times.
I also, almost casually, said I'd started smoking again.
That last one was the only issue the bishop addessed.
And I got the obligatory 4weeks without Sacrament, as well, of course being told to just stop immediately. Which has resulted in me being shunned.
I feel more "seen" listening to people like Nick than I do with my supposed Mormon family.
*PIMO=Physically In; Mentally Out.
I'm so sorry that you weren't afforded the care and compassion that you deserved. I hope you find peace, contentment, and a community who loves and supports you instead of judging you. You deserve it.
I hope you are doing better today. I felt the pain in your comment & you are loved. If people can hate for no reason, I can love.
Hello my fellow Kitsap and former Naval Officer homie Rob! Loved the honesty and love felt in this interview. Definitely one of the best!
Gentlemen, thank you for your service, your faith in good and in your members.
This is such a watershed moment that, like all watershed moments, takes years to build.
I removed my name from the records many years ago. Your stories validate why I ended up leaving and staying gone.
Blessings on you and yours❤
As a nevermo, the most striking takeaway from this conversation is how a calling as a bishop asks so much of the bishop's entire family. It's staggering for me to imagine how the wives of these men must feel being told that the church needs their husband more than they do - more than their children need their father! That God himself has decided to inflict this massive burden on them, to put them in the position of maintaining their family primarily on their own (although without the ultimate decision-making authority), minimizing the harm to their children as their father is frequently pulled out of their lives (which is a permanent defecit - you dont get a do-over with childhood experiences), and attempting to keep their marriage intact (while also being encouraged to never create conflict or show resentment). And all of this is supposed to be less important than their (public, unwavering) support of their husband, who is also being tasked with an incredible personal burden. It's truly incredible how much this church asks of its women members (and how much it expects from them in the realm of keeping up appearances, from their literal physical appearance to the importance placed on curating the image of a Perfect Mormon Family, especially when your husband is the bishop). It's like a perfect recipe for depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and addiction.
I imagine there are a lot of deep wounds being silently borne by the spouses and children of LDS bishops. I would be fascinated to see a discussion like this with several bishop's wives, maybe led by Margi?
Thank you again for all your honesty and transparency.
My older brother is on his second stint as a bishop and I can honestly say that there’s no joy in his life. He seems so miserable and when he tells me stories of what he’s dealing with, there’s no way I want any part of it. My brother owns and runs a big manufacturing business and travels extensively and in his ‘free’ time, he’s ministering to his ward. No thanks.
My younger brother was a bishop in Oregon and runs the ER department at one of the hospitals. When COVID kicked in, he was not only attending to an influx of patients in his ER, but had to tend to his flock afterwards. He was physically and mentally drained. To compound my younger brothers fatigue, the stake president and area authority kept telling him that he needed members in the pews and he kept pushing back using his medical expertise but to no avail. My brother asked got an early release and thankfully got it. I know that my dear mother (God rest her soul) was so proud that my brothers became bishops but there was always an unspoken disappointment that I chose to quit attending church. Se la vie.
This podcast is incredible. God bless these men who have given so much. Rubber meets the road here.
The truth and honesty sets all of you free and liberates viewers as well. We are as sick our secrets.
As one of those former teen girls who was damaged by these interviews-and still has to see that bishop around as family friend (*grazing hug*)-..I appreciate this.
By far one of my favorite episodes you've filmed!! Please do more panels like this!!
Never Mormon Norwegian here!❤🇧🇻 Have been glued to the screen listening to these bishops. This must be so important for the church to watch, to try to learn from these great men.
Thank you John for giving them the platform to open up and dare to be vulnerable.
The LDS church is such a mystery to me.. all the amazing humans following the Book of Mormon, and still claim they believe in Jesus Christ. I am not sure those two can be connected, knowing what Jesus ways of if helping and loving people.. LDS seems to be more about to control humans. Being so strict . I don't understand how people can believe it, now, when all of us easily can get so much knowledge just by googling. I believe in the LDS kindness, their eager to be good people and why they love their community within the church. It's sad the organisation seems to think more about their reputation and money ,before they try to help their members ! Imagine how powerful the Mormon church would be, if they actually supported their member for who they are, instead of judging members. With all the kind good humans they got, it would be so powerful if the organisation took away shame and guilt, and lifted up their members to show the world what is really possible with the right support was given. It could be huge!
"this must be so important for the church to watch"
I'm sorry to tell you but no-one in a leadership position would ever admit to watching this, let alone talking about it.
Unless of course they were "counselling"//"disciplining" people like the serving bishop on the panel.
There are life long dedicated Mormons who are revolted at the idea of watching something that's not church approved.
I'm an adult convert who is on the way out, and I've been fortunate to find a couple of *very Mormon" friends who over the years have answered questions after I've read or viewed what's termed "anti Mormon propaganda" Fortunate in that they did not immediately shun me for having viewed such things, or for asking "Is this true?" .
However they always answer with doctrine, that is "church teachings".
@@bilindalaw-morley161 We know how much time the LDS church use to try to win people over, and to stay in their church.. so everyone who leave and know the truth, should never be afraid to raise their voice and tell every possible victim of the church the truth! So I think I would work hard to spread the word to every Mormon I knew if I was an ex Mormon. .
The whole idea that God have made a "part 3" of the Bible , in the states is almost funny to me... I don't mean no harm, but we know America often want to be the greatest, most powerful part of the world.. so no wonder someone came up with this whole thing.. but, the story and the church ways of doing stuff screams fake news to all of us outside of it. I am very sure mormons are kind ,really good hearted people, that means we'll. We see that often, and I'm sure the community among members in every ward is a great asset to everyone. But the church is just nonsense. The talking with God as a prophet,is just a lie.. at best a great fantasy in their grey "raisins" heads . I wish they where willing to listen to other voices too.. but I have learned how much power the church got over these people, their members. It's sad.. they steal everything from people. Their whole lives. I can't imagine all the suffering people goes through because of religion as a whole... And for what? I know people like to believe we are powerful and will live forever and all that.. but it's just a way of comforting ourselves when life is hard. But, we are not more powerful than every dead ant out there. We live ,we die.. easy. Its Hard words for a lot if people, I know, but at least its realistic . I believe in humans. Be kind, do good, and you will be remembered for an eternity.. that's my vibe atleast. And the only eternity we can get. I hope we can. Evome spirits, and ghosts, but don't really believe in that either 🙈😅
I hope your way out will be peacful my friend. You are on the right path now, more powerful than ever,I'm sure. Be free and happy❤️ Good luck to you! Love from Marte in Norway
I am a survivor of spousal abuse. None of my Mormon Bishops knew what to do about this except to say “hang in there”, but no one would ever do anything to help me get a temple divorce. These Bishops need to be actually able to help the sisters separate from Mormon abusers. The church needs to change their policy on temple divorce for abuse. They claim they will let abused women get a temple divorce, but that isn’t really the reality of being a Mormon woman.
I've watched this episode 4 times! Love and respect these men for such honestly. One of your best episodes ever
I was a secretary and spent a lot of time outside the bishops office and was so glad I never had to know what it was about. There are a lot of good men who are bishop’s but I know that experience is extremely tough!
Agree. The absolutely best Mormon Stories episode. Very impactful. Share this with friends and family!!!!
Courageous, revolutionary & admirable men here. I’m definitely part the best ever MS episodes club! Fri & Sat episodes were so good, so needed. Thank you John, Margi & these 3 exemplary gentleman! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
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4 😊 🙌
Thank you so much to all of these men for their vulnerability and candour. In some strange way this “round table” has healed something in me and I don’t write that lightly.
I had an enormous amount of resentment that I felt toward local leadership. I hated always having to defer and “go to the Bishop” as a teenager. I actively avoided it as I felt it was an exercise in shaming and guilt-even though I had very little to confess.
I always looked at the counsellors and Bishops as “so and so’s dad” who somehow got chosen and held way too much power. And sadly, I thought they got off on that power.
This episode has softened my resentment. Sure some of them may have been power hungry jerks, but most really were just “so and so’s dad” trying to do the best that he could.
I’m sorry that all of you had to go through some of those awful situations. I’m sorry that the institution didn’t give you the proper training or support. I wish you nothing but healing and peace.
I had a friend whose father worked for health and welfare evaluationing families and stuff to make sure kids were safe and well. He was a bishop at the same time. As a bishop it seems that he shut off all that training. My friend had a girlfriend in high school who was in his ward. She was being horribly sexually abused by her father. The bishop (a trained health and welfare employee) did nothing.
That just popped into my head as I was listening.
Omg he should have been a mandatory reporter! Shame on him !
Why am I not surprised
Thank you for your honesty and vulnerability. I have cried throughout this episode as you have told your stories.
This is hands down the best episode of MS I’ve watched. Please please keep doing these. Love the idea of having former RS presidents on too. This may sound dramatic, but I’m a better person, a better former Mormon, after watching these guys. Thank you.
One thing that was always hard about the church for me was the fact that there was practically a comprehensive list of dos and donts for every individual to live in order to essentially just receive blessings… it just seemed so hypocritical that we were taught that agency was one of the most important things for us to experience, yet the church literally dictates the lives of those within. I LOVE that these men give us unedited information freely and they have no expectations for us and you can feel their love and passion. That is more Godlike than the many rules, expectations, and judgements of the church in my opinion.
This one and the one with bishop Nick where the best episodes ever
Thank you Bishops and Well Done 👏 for speaking up for us.
Ex Mormon here. I had a bishop that wouldn’t let me leave his office until I accepted the calling of relief society president in the singles ward. At the time I felt my mental and physical health was not in a good place. He did not care. He would not let me leave until I accepted. To make matters worse, he told me I had to have councilors and a secretary picked out by sacrament meeting…. Which was in 20 minutes… how was I supposed to receive revelation in 20 minutes? I was gobsmacked.
So sorry that happened to you. Totally wrong. I said no to " primary president calling". I didnt grow up in the cburch, didn't know that everyone accepted. It was way too much for me to handle. Got a calling later that was more suitable.
So sorry this was your experience. We can say “no” but we aren’t taught that we can say “no”. It’s so wrong of leaders to do what they did to you 😢My mother years ago gave me a book to read by Cheiko N Okazaki and in her book she says “ you can say NO” to any Calling extended to you. This helped me at the time that I was struggling with my mental health and I knew I couldn’t take on a particular calling. I have always thanked my mother for that book and I have let many others know that it is our right to say “no” regardless of what a Bishop or other leaders think. We have our voice and we ca use it!
What’s even worse, he kept pacing the office by the door, so I couldn’t just walk out like I wanted to. I was young, scared, and along with an older man… not a good situation.
Wow this was so powerful! Loved every minute of it!!! ❤
This is my absolute favorite episode I have listened to! The love really does shine through these men and I’m so grateful men like this exist. In the ex-mo community there is such a focus on the negative and hate without giving the credit due to the good stuff. I was not left feeling upset by anything in this conversation except for contempt that a crazy man can make men like these guys feel guilty.
John- keep up the good work you are doing!
This has been amazing !! These men are so fine in every way, real men, you too John. The GA’s are shaking in their shoes for the floodgates opening on the leadership ! I could so relate, my husband was a branch President twice as well as a stake president. We could all write a book !
This episode really touched my heart and soul, and gave me hope in humanity. So much appreciate the candidness, vulnerability, humility, warmth, love, and compassion. Thank you.
I was just getting ready to type that you need to make this a series, and you said it. The level of authenticity is tangible. Very powerful and vulnerable!
Fantastic men here. Thank you for a loving, heartfelt discussion of how things behind the curtain have run and how they affected you, your family & those you served. I look forward to more discussions like this.
Amazing podcast, amazing discussion - SO refreshing to hear these men being open and honest and vulnerable about so many issues that SO MANY mormons would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend those issues don’t exist!! Bravo, bravo 🙌
I still have fears that what I do will lead to punishment. This has been there my whole life, and has gotten bigger. I'm 54 years old, and member my whole life. I know everything about the church is wrong, and I have done things, not because I wanted to do it, but it was so I wouldn't get in trouble or be punished. I have never really known what chosing for myself, and what I want to do is like. I'm starting to now, and like Nick says, it is terrifying. I have drank coffee, and I like it, but I feel if I do, bad things will happen, and maybe I won't be punished, but my dog, who has bad joints, will be in pain becasue of what I have done. I know it's ridiculous, but it is very real to me. Still working on getting through this. My wife isn't where I am, and she wants to go to church. I will take her, but I won't participate. Now that I'm not paying tithing, which my wife agrees with, but didn't always, I am building a good savings, and we are better financially than ever before.
I never shared your fears but know close family members that have expressed these sentiments to me. I was afraid to no longer wear garments. The church does a great job using superstition to control. As you try new things, like coffee, I suggest you use the phrase, " I now choose to believe......." for example, that you are safe to drink coffee and "all us well". I had to force myself to try coffee, alcohol, even forced myself to try sex, seriously.
@@1970Mrscott Thank you. This started with my mother. She was a member and was very controlling and would impose her requirements on us, her sons. Two of us in particular. We don't wear garments anymore, my wife stopped before I did. However, I have deconstructed much faster than she has. I have always been one to follow rules, forced by my mother, and it's hard to now do my own thing. I working on it, but all these years make it really difficult and intimidating. I haven't seen God as a loving God. One that would just punish, since I was always punished as a child. I had bad anxiety in elementary school, and would throw up. My mother would ridicule me and was "embarassed" by me. She told me this. Sorry to dump so much. I appreciate your suggestions.
God is love and leads by love. His kindness is what leads us to repentance, says the Bible. You'll know over time, one thing at a time, what is important to you, and what is important to a loving God. Coffee is not one of them 😊 Jesus' golden rule is do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Be mindful of your vertical relationship with God and your horizontal relationships with others and yourself. Take your time before you make decisions according to who you are and are created to be.
I’m not LDS. My father converted at age 80. At the time I was finding peace and balance after an extensive collapse/breakdown and Dark Night of the Soul. I left organized religion as a result of my healing journey.
Having provided that context, thank you for this powerful panel conversation. I’m changing careers and am headed toward being a Peer Counselor for my state’s Dept. of Mental Health as the first step toward licensure as a Counselor. This Peer position requires a 40 hour course to be completed before Day 1. Forty simple hours would have helped these men SO much with the mental and emotional load they experienced!
Thank you all for your heart-based approach and Christ-like intentions. 🙌🏼💜🙏
I love this episode!!! I had to share!!
When Einstein gave lectures at U.S. universities, the recurring question that students asked him most was:
- Do you believe in God?
And he always answered:
- I believe in the God of Spinoza.
Baruch de Spinoza was a Dutch philosopher considered one of the great rationalists of 17th century philosophy, along with Descartes.
(Spinoza) : God would say:
Stop praying.
What I want you to do is go out into the world and enjoy your life. I want you to sing, have fun and enjoy everything I've made for you.
Stop going into those dark, cold temples that you built yourself and saying they are my house. My house is in the mountains, in the woods, rivers, lakes, beaches. That's where I live and there I express my love for you.
Stop blaming me for your miserable life; I never told you there was anything wrong with you or that you were a sinner, or that your sexuality was a bad thing. Sex is a gift I have given you and with which you can express your love, your ecstasy, your joy. So don't blame me for everything they made you believe.
Stop reading alleged sacred scriptures that have nothing to do with me. If you can't read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son's eyes... ➤ you will find me in no book!
Stop asking me "will you tell me how to do my job?" Stop being so scared of me. I do not judge you or criticize you, nor get angry, or bothered. I am pure love.
Stop asking for forgiveness, there's nothing to forgive. If I made you... I filled you with passions, limitations, pleasures, feelings, needs, inconsistencies... free will. How can I blame you if you respond to something I put in you? How can I punish you for being the way you are, if I'm the one who made you? Do you think I could create a place to burn all my children who behave badly for the rest of eternity? What kind of god would do that?
Respect your peers and don't do what you don't want for yourself. All I ask is that you pay attention in your life, that alertness is your guide.
My beloved, this life is not a test, not a step on the way, not a rehearsal, nor a prelude to paradise. This life is the only thing here and now and it is all you need.
I have set you absolutely free, no prizes or punishments, no sins or virtues, no one carries a marker, no one keeps a record.
You are absolutely free to create in your life. Heaven or hell.
➤ I can't tell you if there's anything after this life but I can give you a tip. Live as if there is not. As if this is your only chance to enjoy, to love, to exist.
So, if there's nothing after, then you will have enjoyed the opportunity I gave you. And if there is, rest assured that I won't ask if you behaved right or wrong, I'll ask. Did you like it? Did you have fun? What did you enjoy the most? What did you learn?...
Stop believing in me; believing is assuming, guessing, imagining. I don't want you to believe in me, I want you to believe in you. I want you to feel me in you when you kiss your beloved, when you tuck in your little girl, when you caress your dog, when you bathe in the sea.
Stop praising me, what kind of egomaniac God do you think I am?
I'm bored being praised. I'm tired of being thanked. Feeling grateful? Prove it by taking care of yourself, your health, your relationships, the world. Express your joy! That's the way to praise me.
Stop complicating things and repeating as a parakeet what you've been taught about me.
What do you need more miracles for? So many explanations?
The only thing for sure is that you are here, that you are alive, that this world is full of wonders.
- Spinoza
2010! Masterbation was out of the handbook in 2010?? High five to the bishop at BYUI in about 2012 who made me describe in detail how I masterbated and then took the sacrament from me for months. Nailed it.
I had issues as a young man. My bishop did nothing, my parents did nothing. ( My dad even said,” It’s your problem- Deal with it.” ) I went on a mission later in life (at 23) unable to deal with my religious scrupulously…..
@@jacobmcneal3011 I am so sorry that you reached out for help and weren't given any.
90% of males & 60% of females masturbate. We do it because it is normal, natural & healthy.
The church is an evil fraud for turning it into a sin & ruining people over it due to misplaced guilt.
Such an “eye opening “ podcast listening to the Bishops. Thanks for your honesty and openness.
Imagine, just IMAGINE, what the people of the church could actually do with the love that they have (as these wonderful men have clearly shown), if the leadership would get out of the way with the strictness of rigid protocols based on puritanical and archaic rules. They could truly change the world if their apertures could be allowed to open wide.
Especially if they used the BILLIONS of dollars the Mormon church has hidden away to do good deeds.
Thank you all for being vulnerable. Each one of these men has a beautiful soul. I felt the spirit and the love. These were the best messages I have heard in all my years in the church.
YES, removing "the one true church" would be incredible in so many ways.
This is the best video I’ve watched, this is the real dark side off Mormonism. And knowing about what the Bishops know about, and what that job consists on. It puts to much on their shoulders. I think they should have been paid, like the leaders do.
I think they should be paid too for all of their work especially because this is like a second full time job for them.
I was a second counselor’s wife. Also, He was a scoutmaster for 10 years. I threatened divorce. We moved and did a slow fade into inactivity. I started listening to MSP and others podcasts. I never have stepped into a chapel since 2008. The church sucks the life from high calling-members.
The church sucks the life out of every member. Mormonism is harmful.
Yeah! One. Of. The. Best. Episodes. Ever!
Mic 🎤 Drop!
Looking forward to one with past Relief Society Presidents!
This was a very enlightening episode. Would love to see more of this.
Rob Gorman was my bishop right after i joined the church in 2000. He was a great bisop to me and really helped me let go of a ton of guilt and shame and im a better person because he was in my life.
This just feels like the beginning of the tidal wave the mormon church imploding.
You might be very right. Oh the panic at the top if this cuit
Damn right. Membership numbers are declining & scandals & lawsuits just keep on coming.
The church will have to give women the priesthood, publicly admit that the priesthood ban for Blacks was evil & racist, & allow lgbtq to get married in the temple or else it’s days are well & truly numbered. And these are just for starters.