U Siphon Low Flow Start
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2016
- Last time the U siphon was built and tested but it had an issue starting with low flow. In this video I make a few modifications to help get the siphon started with low flow.
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Nicely worked through, you seemed to have cracked it that's for sure.
I like the way you think things through, you may or may not know it but you were the main inspiration in me building my ram pump. Apart from a small hiccup it has been running pretty much continually for over 2 years now, it keeps my 1000 Litre tote full all the time which is in constant use supplying water to the garden and greenhouse.
+Michael Collinson thank you. I went out today and hooked it up to my Ram pump and the flow was not quite enough to pull the siphon. Approximately 35 - 40 feet above the pump I was getting one gallon every four and a half minutes. But I have some ideas of making a surge that will pull the siphon. I remember back when you were building your pump asking several questions. I have to admit I learned a few things about ram pumps during your experience. It seems like the more people that contact me about these pumps the more I learn. I appreciate you watching my videos. Sometimes I wonder what people think about them because I don't often get too many comments.
How large can the auto siphon be? Or how quickly can we empty the tank? I think you went from 1/2 to 3/4 PVC pipe, wonder if bigger pipe would work if you had a big tank and need lots of water when triggered? Thanks - Dave
*_VERY GOOD, LIKED...CONGRATULATIONS FROM BRAZILIAN AQUAPONICS!!!_*
+Aquaponia Coyote thank you. I have another video coming out soon with many more tests.
Great Video!! God Bless!! :D
Thank you.
rotated the discharge '90' degrees (from top 2 bottom)
gravity ? he calls turbulence... ?
Good experiment. I suggest using slightly bigger dia output, hence increasing the flow rate/pressure. Your bucket will be emptied faster and the cycle will be more too. Maybe this can be applied to increase pressure for delivering water to a RAM pump?
+Asano San I can try using a larger output.the problem might be getting it to start. As for the ram pump since the pump has a flow in both directions I don't think an auto siphon is going to help much.
Maybe if you fill the p trap to prime it. You could also test by removing the 90 pieces successively. Maybe one at the bottom would do it. A smaller pipe for the whole siphon might improve things because it would change the ratio of tank to pipe.
The main reason for a P trap is to help start the siphon, by making an air tight seal with the long down-pipe just before the trap. If you use larger diameter pipe, it's more likely to have trouble starting the siphon, in which case a P trap would solve the problem.
The delay you saw was just caused by the air pocket inside the down-pipe, pushing water into the P trap. This is normal, but you could try turning the outlet pipe so the bottom of that opening is just above the top of the lower pipe.
+Pete Lorenzo thank you for the info! I am hoping to stay with the 3/4" pipe so it can pull larger items out of the tank. But if I have to i can go 1/2". That way I don't have to have a p trap. I also tried moving the U outside the bucket and it worked well.
I think its less the p trap or back pressure and more the length of the drain pipe...the water that falls over the siphon and has more distance to fall and build up more suction to get that initial pull to trip the siphon
I will have to give that a try here in a few days. I just purchased some parts to give this another try.
The important factor here is the difference in height of the inlet and the outlet of the siphon... The larger the difference the larger the suction. You can have the p trap, but you will need to lengthen the drain pipe because the p trap increases the height of the outlet. When you placed the p trap, the outlet was just under the inlet, hence why you had very low suction. Increase the length of the vertical drain pipe.
I will give a longer drain pipe a try this week. I am looking forward to the tests.
Land to House Nice I will look forward to the video this has been very interesting your ram pump videos I also enjoyed.
+Steven Watson Ram pumps are so great. I would like to get out and make the next U siphon video tomorrow.
OMG I just found your solution. Please disregard my other statement in your first video.
+Patrick O'Neill haha no problem. I just set up my buckets for more testing yesterday. Should be some interesting stuff.
Neat Test. I have never seen one of these.
+John Godwin I like them a lot. They're similar to a bell siphon. Today I'm going to be testing it with the ram pump.
Need more ram pump! Ha ha. Your channel is always good.
+John Godwin ha ha for some reason I just heard the Taco Bell dog say I think I need a bigger pump. The way my mind works sometimes scares me. My channel is about to have a boost and video content. I'm thinking about 30 videos next month.
+Land to House how would this work on koi pond could it run a water fall ?
+Wes Hasley that is an interesting thought. I am not entirely sure how that would work. In my set up I'm going to be using an outside source of water.
yay!
Mate I get where you are coming from, but feel sure if when I build something similar for my aquaponics overflow, I will / you could introduce the theories behind Bernoulli's principle for a far better start and stop point for the flow rates …. In essence you need to have a stepped down reduction to the inlet flow on the introductory side from the barrel then do the opposite and reverse everything again for your outflow end …. sort of like two opposing venturies > =
The p-trap needs to be fitted within the bucket base-level to minimise the water depth needed to start. The tail pipe will affect how long the bucket takes to empty.
I also found that the pipe can be installed outside of the tank. I will have to try extending the length of the tail pipe.
Yep, can be fitted outside the tank no problem. The important thing is that the water descending in the outlet from the top loop is trying to push air downwards into the p-trap before the syphon initiates. If there is a tall column of air on top of the water to push down, it will need a higher level of water above the top of the syphon to get started. Lengthening the tail-pipe vertical height has the same effect as a taller bucket, once the syphon has started.
I have plans of using this siphon technique in the near future. It would be great to have a small duck pond that empties itself every time it gets full.
all siphons work on gravity :) when you put your P-trap in you also removed much of your gravity as you had very little distance from your pickup line! this is why it was so slow and took that much more to get it to work! in fact it's amazing it worked as well as it did with that little bit of a distance! put the bucket higher and put an extension to the P-trap the longer the extension the faster your flow is going to be ;) just don't get care-yd away or you will have to extend both parts of the p-trap
I actually have a new video with lots of improvements on this design. ua-cam.com/video/enj1d0NNLzY/v-deo.html
yeah I looked after reading other post, apparently I was a few months late lol!!
+Joseph Azzato no worries! I took my time getting to the siphon again. So many projects so little time.
lol understand still have to get to putting up my greenhouse on my land. hoping to get around to it soon I really do need to get that done!
Larger inlet pipe will apply greater air pressure
PS … Bernoulli's principle = A greater pressure changes to a greater velocity via a venturi then changes back to a greater pressure via a second (reversed in direction) venturi at the outlet … Sort of like getting two funnels and joining them together in the middle - but after you have reversed the direction of the second funnel at the outflow end …. This is exactly the theory used behind what happens when we all normally use a standard jet of water from a garden hose in a solid stream - to go far.....please try it - I'm sure it will work
for those asking what this can be useful... Lets say you put this in a 50 gallon elevated tank that is filed by an airlift pump. once the tank is full it will release all this water into your distribution hoses with much pressure than the one you may get from the airlift itself.
Yes that is a good use. I am thinking about using this to auto drain a duck pond.
Plus the larger diameter size of your pipe is..... The more and faster it will flow!!!
If you go with a 1/2- Inch inlet. You must go with "TWICE THE SIZE" of your inlet!
What will you be using this as a real world application? I've only seen these used in aquaponics and farming
+nintendolunchbox my goal is to have a few ducks and I'm going to be filling a small water tank so they can swim around in. Every time the Overflow of my garden tanks fills up the duck pond I will use the U Siphon to flush the duck pond. That way it will continually wash itself clean.
+Land to House brilliant! I've taken care of Peking ducks and their pool was a horrible mess. that's an amazing application. now I see why you didn't want to reduce the pipe size.
+nintendolunchbox I have never raised ducks but I hope that 3/4" will be large enough to clean most of the mess. :) and I won't have to manually clean.
+Land to House you'll still will need to pressure wash or do that thumb to the hose trick to get the muck off the sides. oh wait. will it also have a bottom drain? yeah. duck poop sinks to the bottom
+nintendolunchbox I figure the U siphon will pull from the bottom so that should get the muck out. :) we shall see how well it works.
Low flow needs more head to get started as well as your trap setup. If you lower the outlet it will most likely start sooner.
I have just finished another video with several more configurations and have learned a lot about the U siphon. check out the newer video here: ua-cam.com/video/FsZi4B5bevs/v-deo.html
It's the size of the pipe and the height of the drop that determines the flow rate in a siphon...
The p trap has nothing to do with increasing the flow. It's only holding an air lock until the weight of the water above the siphon bend, will push the air out of the pipe. You could use just 2 90's in the bucket, that would accomplish the same thing as your contraption you designed. And as long as you didn't have an air lock in the pipe where it has to fill way above the top of the first bucket. Meaning... your discharge pipe has to be above the surface of the second tank with no trap inline.
Or if you have to have an air lock situation, the make the siphon bend shorter in the first bucket so the pressure in the bucket will overcome the air lock pressure to start. However it will take longer to stop the siphon once the air lock has been removed. Because air to break a siphon needs to idealy, come from both sides of a siphon. Otherwise based on the incoming flow vs the siphon flow, it will keep sucking water and not break the siphon. And either keep the water level near the bottom of the siphon tube or over flow the bucket eventually.
Here is an example of the p trap inside the bucket where we can see what is going on with the air:
ua-cam.com/video/5wZ9PQepQYI/v-deo.html
@@davebean2886 You missed my point...
"You could use just 2 90's in the bucket, that would accomplish the same thing as your contraption you designed."
Meaning the diamond shaped design doesn't "accomplish" anything...
You can use just a u shaped pipe inside...
All the external stuff (the 3 - 90's and 2 - 90's he uses) just slows down the flow.
A single elbow externally will help start the siphon and if you make the output of that elbow the next size bigger, it will help break the siphon faster.
The the next issue is... the incoming water flow, too fast it won't empty, too slow it will fill higher before the siphon starts. You have to tweak it (inflow or internal siphon height) to maintain the level desired...
And last but not least, if you want it to empty faster, use a bigger diameter pipe.
So instead of using 3 -45's and 3 - 90's or 2 90's
All you need it 2 - 90's and 1 - 90 with one side, the next size bigger pipe diameter.
Less cost per siphon.
Bell siphons are easier to set the stop level, because they use a flexible breather tube to break the siphon, so it is easier to move it up and down. Where as with this setup you have to cut the internal pipes to get the desired, height and stop lengths.
@@kiddiescripterkiller Thanks for the additional information and clarification - I"ll study it !
if you use smooth curved elbows you can get a Better P trap that's why sink p traped are more round instead of jaged
+xXoOPersonOoXx 4719561 good idea! When I use this in the Real world I will have to use the smooth parts. Thank you.
does it works only for u-syphon?
or it works also for the bell-syphon?
+Arya Landax you could use the bell too. This u siphon is just easier to make.
Land to House,it simple..but,
I'm using 12wtt pump & using 1/2' pipe,
as result a very smalll flow of water & very lonnnng.. time to drain the growbed,
so what should I do?
should I change the pipe to get better flow of water?
+Arya Landax I have only tested this three-quarter inch pipe. If you can get the siphon to start without that 90 degree at the bottom it would drain a lot faster but the slow flow rate can be an issue. The larger diameter pipe does seem to drain a lot faster.
Land to House thank's for the reply n' info it's helps a lot,
Cheers from Bali,
+Arya Landax any time. Let me know if you learn more about this setup. I would like to hear it.
Do a 45 vs the 90
You should check out Rob Bob Backyard Farmer. He is the aquaponics and general farmer in Australia and he does a lot of work Bell siphons.
Wow he has a lot of content! Thank you for sharing.
Land to House, I started watching him for all his aquaponics. one of my favorite things about him is his nearly encyclopedia knowledge of plants.
what is the purpose of low flow?
My original goal was to fill a duck pond by Ram pump and once full would auto flash and clean itself. The flow rate of the ram pump is typically low
probably late... but... if you just put a 90° elbow and a 24" horizontal pipe... that will help your siphon without extra parts.
+Gordon D. Lear I will be using this later so I will have to try that.
You have the flow blocked with the "P-Trap" !!! You have restriced the flow.....
One cool lifehack is to save money on pipes and fittings by simply drilling a hole in the bottom of the bucket. Empties completely every time.
The auto siphon allows the tank to fill before dumping.
You eliminated the trap seal. All you did was add two inches to the drain pipe.
What do you use this for?
+lugerstonecock I am going to use it as a way to clean out a small duck pond. Everything the pond gets full it flushes. Most of the time this is used in aquaponics.
What does this project supposed to do
+billy bob bussnesman I have plans to use an auto siphon to empty and clean a duck pond a couple times a day. So I am testing the U siphon.
+Land to House cool. Ur all ways working on something..lol. I enjoy ur channel. Keep it up.
+billy bob bussnesman thank you! I have 100 ideas for projects in my and only time for 1 at a time. Haha
+Land to House I'm waiting for it to get warmer so I can get my hydro put in..I found a direct drive washing machine.rewired it so all need to do is get it put up as a wind turbine..some time I wish I had more hands. lol
+billy bob bussnesman oh cool. That will be fun. I was looking at my wife's hair straightner and it has an electrical swivel that might be nice to have in a wind turbine so the cord does not tangle.
...or equal.
might need to prime the first configuration first...
+Genma Saotome it seems like both configurations will work as long as there is proper water supply. That's the tricky part.
Go back to the basic physics of how a syphon works... This syphon stops running because it sucks in air at it's low setpoint (when the water line drops below the intake pipe), so priming will make no difference (it drops the prime every cycle). The trap at the bottom restricts the air from escaping the descending pipe and that pipe flooded with water plus the weight of that falling water is what creates the syphon action. The weight of the water falling through the pipe, the liquid seal in the desending pipe and the vacuum created, pulling more water in are controlled by the diameter of the pipe (a smaller diameter requires less water to flood out and create a seal), and the length of the descending pipe (the longer the pipe, the more water it contains and the more water weight pulling down). The air trapped behind the trap was limiting both and preventing your system from starting (look at the video after you restricted the outlet and notice right before the syphon started pulling, it "burped" the air out of the descending pipe as the weight of the water pushed the air out as the bucket overfilled). Try a smaller diameter pipe with no outlet restrictions and is should start easier.
water seeks it's lowest point .....?