The Blam engine was phenomenal, and I think the Tiger engine is also great. The older Halo games still hold up remarkably well, and Destiny 2 feels amazing to play too, just from a purely mechanical standpoint. But it's pretty obvious that the Tiger engine wasn't designed for a game as massive as D2, and it needs a massive overhaul. If they really do plan to continue D2 after the Final Shape (which I seriously doubt), they need to take a break and just focus on upgrading the engine.
Hopefully some people will take this as an opportunity to appreciate the scale and complexity of such things, and learn that sometimes you really are whining about things you don’t even remotely understand
As much as we want everything to be instant and how or society is filled with instant gratification things take time to perfect whether it’s creating video games making movies or anything else it takes time which sucks but it’s necessary.
2:28 it's sad to see how far the company is straying from this philosophy. I'm sure the majority of people at Bungie who are actually developing the games share this view as well, but Bungie as a whole is sadly valuing profit over joy and players. If you make something truly great, the money will come aplenty.
I'm not saying they should move to Unreal becausethat would put more strain on literally all other teams. Would destiny look even better, yeah, absolutely, but at some point, updating or modifying the engine will only do so much. But since Chris and his team have this much experience with making and upgrading their engine, they should strive to make an engine that exceeds what they've done in the past. Just my thoughts, yeah, it'll be a good while before it would appear, but they have to knowledge to make it happen
I'm just guessing, but I think the tiger engine it's the core of gunplay and weapon customization like perks and how the studio implements changes to weapons and abilities, if Bungie starts using a new engine, the game would feel different and probably make it more difficult to implement changes, about unreal 5 if it is true it's probably a completely different game, probably not even a shooter
@@oldsk00l well to be fair, its 500 dollars for most of the content. If you're broke cause 500 dollars then you should look at yourself and what you're doing. One day you'll get it together man and have some money to blow on bullshit
@@McMTG ahahahaha, nice try. All the poor fools who blow $500 on a mediocre game and defend it, those are the pathetic broke AF people huffing copium because they could’ve blown it on hookers & blow, orrrrr set fire to $500. With the weak ass content, you get more entertainment throwing $500 off a bridge than buying this shit. Lol nice try, but you outed yourself.
This is a pheonmenal video and a great history lesson. I love deep dives like this into some random niche aspect of the development of games I love. Really well made and well scripted. Kudos to you and your team!
theres no good info here. i dont need a pity party about the devs being too stupid to make a new engine, and instead bandaid a 20 year old engine, and not even upgrade server tickrates about the garbage 20hz weve been stuck with. 20 year old engine 20 year old server. you can give a shit about the lame excuses all you want. this is all stuff that has been known if you gave a shit and werent lazy. all this money from suing cheaters and eververse predation and we got shitty ass 5hz tick rate at this point because the game is getting worse.
I LOVE these types of videos in general. To see how far a gaming company has gone from with the Blam Engine to now. What makes them tick? Etc. I'm currently using the Godot Engine, so this is nice to see the similarities and differences.
That's the #1 thing I want to see from Bungie at this point. I have no interest in D2 anymore, I want a fresh start. That's the only thing that would truly reignite my desire to play Destiny again
I still don't find the sunsetting argument valid. If adding more content to the game caused issues, then you find back-end solutions to it, not force a front end solution on the users. An example is if google is having bandwidth capacity issues on UA-cam, the correct solution would be to expand/increase the bandwidth, a back-end solution. The wrong solution would be to force every user to 360p max and thumbnails are now 180p max, a front end solution which makes the experience worse for every user.
Mm. They wanted to do a Destiny 3 but without the costs to themselves of doing a D3. So they deleted most of Destiny 2 instead. That shouldn't even have been legal, let alone a good idea. If the game couldn't handle adding more to it, thats their problem to solve. As it stands they picked the worst possible solution. They didn't get a fresh slate on either the sandbox front or technical fronts because they had all of the Destiny 2 gear still kicking around, but Destiny 2's content was irreversibly removed.
Ill just say this once, engine is not an issue, for example unreal has been around since 1996 but you dont say games made in unreal 5 are using an outdated engine now do you?
I would go as far as to say that the pandemic let them make excuses. I can see some employees refusing to adapt this making it easier for them to scrap content as an excuse for negligence during that time. Obviously it was hard for everyone but their commitment to the community definitely got fractured and they have become too comfortable with under delivery
Not even a week ago every destiny streamer was shitting on bungie for what they've done. All it took was one list of exotic reworks and he they are trying to sell you the same broken / overpriced game.
Man, that Halo Reach E3 trailer where we see Noble Team for the first time is so damn good. Had to watch it again for the millionth time after seeing it here
Reach is a great game. I never really got into any of the Halo games since. The sad and essentially hopeless plot is rare in gaming where devs are scared to do anything other than a power fantasy where you always save the day.
The buyout doesn’t mean they get billions to pay for development. It means the investors and stockholders get 3.6 billion, and bungie now needs Sony money
@Fenneken141 yeah none of this is because of Sony. At the end of the day, bungie isn't the same. Clearly, we know bungie is the problem after the Activision split.
@@Fenneken141how do people keep blaming anyone but bungie when they did this shit after the Acti split and before the Sony buyout, this had nothing to do with sony
The problem with Destiny, was not the engine, it was the tools needed to support the engine. Look at the Delivery Goals on the slide Cross showed. They gave themselves a C. It took forever to fix even the smallest thing because people had to go in and edit the code directly. Every pollygon was manually placed. You don't program this way, Bungie even knew this, but they were in a hurry to get D2 out the door so they took a lot of shortcuts. They have gotten better over time. For example, they can now make changes to gun architypes in one shot, vs manually having to edit each and every weapon in the game. You think S22 sandbox range reallignment could have been done 3 or 4 years ago, no way. The engine is just the base, it is the tools they build around the engine that either makes development easy and fast, or difficut and time consuming.
But what would that mean for vaulted content that according to "Bungie" would be reworked and added back? Cause as far as the signs show, Destiny 2 has been completely vaulted and since Beyond Light at least (when sunsetting was introduced), we are technically in Destiny 3 (since all of Destiny 2's content was vaulted).
@@DarthDragon007 - From a program point of view, vaulted content was said to save space. Yes, less things to take care of in the game, fewer encounters to QA with new items. Plus, it saves on console resources. Bungie probably ran a bunch of metrics to see who was running that old content and it was probably pretty small vs the cost of constantly having to test and maintain it on new releases. From a programming point of view, the fewer things in the game you have to maintain, the easier and faster it is to make changes to move forward.
@@rogerhuston8287 Which is why they should have kept going with creating Destiny 3 as a fully separate game for Beyond Light to Final Shape and not added in season content and battle passes. Complete with reworked engine that is able to support the changes to Destiny becoming a Live Service game. Destiny 2 and it's modified Tiger Engine was not made to support what Destiny has become now currently, Live Service. And in my opinion, why should it matter if we "start over" like people complained about? I get it, it'll suck to lose stuff you grinded hard for going into Destiny 3, but you aren't frikken losing it completely! It'll still be in Destiny 2, just not in Destiny 3!
@@DarthDragon007 - I'm not sure I agree with you. New game, new game engine, they are doing that with Marathon, not enough resources to do it for D3. Also, not sold on the idea new is better. New just comes with its own set of problems to overcome and D2 was just a shell of D1 at the start, it took years to get a game that felt as well rounded as D1 at the end. Not sure I want to start over. Besides, all those resources are going into Marathon, that is D3.
Despite all of the problems that the Tiger engine and Destiny 1/2 have or have had, you have to commend Bungie on a technical masterpiece. Destiny 1 ran at 720p, 30 frames per second on console hardware from 2005 (PS3 and Xbox 360). The Xbox 360 had 512MB of total system memory and only 10MB of dedicated video memory (VRAM) and was running on an outdated PowerPC CPU and an ATI GPU combo. The fact that a game as complex as Destiny 1, which released in 2014 and received updates on last-gen consoles until 2016, even ran on this old hardware is truly mind-blowing. Nowadays, we all complain about Destiny 2 performance issues and server issues, but I think some people don't realize how hard upkeeping a game as large as Destiny 2 can be. I'm not defending Bungie at all here, but the fact that D2 supports Xbox One/Series S/X, PS4/PS5, PC, and at one time Stadia, all while providing crossplay and PC OS/hardware/software changes, is extremely impressive. Sure, it's easy to point fingers at the Destiny engine and complain, but if you take a step back, the Tiger engine and the fact that it's lasted and evolved through so many years is something that few game studios or engine developers can say they've been able to achieve with any engine or game series.
And THAT right there is the BIGGEST problem with Destiny right now. It is STILL supported on Xbox One and PS4. Bungie and other developers need to MOVE ON FROM THE 8TH GENERATION CONSOLES!!!! Bungie did it once from the 7th Gen to the 8th Gen, and now it's time to do it again. But they won't.
@@RhapsodicXStyle07 you're right. I'd keep fixing the old bucket or just ignore problems with it. And all the while charging the people that ride more and more and more. Then when people complain I'll just say "it's hard"
@@cluelessclown Would you rather let good enough be or risk everything on something untested and unknown. The only people who are saying getting a new engine will fix everything are people who don't have any understanding and computer engineering.
Either way removing the campaign is their problem not ours. They need to put the time and money into fixing it. Idgaf I miss the halo days when they kept the campaign accessible and playable forever
@@oldboy4271and the thing is I can understand sunsetting weapons for balancing issues but it also shows they were unwilling to rebalance those weapons. All they need to do is add the levels back and rework the loot pool to meet their standards so I know wtf is actually going on. I beat lighttfall first and I’m playing random campaigns In random orders
@@Odinarcade00 Mm. I'd have been happy with a complete sandbox reset, that wasn't the issue. Removing the actual content was the issue. In classic bungie fashion they were so noncommittal that they didn't even commit to the weapon sunsetting properly. Doing the staggered rollout so they didn't even get a fresh sandbox out of it.
@@ASpaceOstrich hell nah I WANNA PLAY THE CAMPAIGN why doesn’t anyone else? Why am I going crazy alone? Why does nobody understand I play bungie games to complete the campaign and then move on to the PvP? Is that alien?
as brought up when that guy said Form Software should switch to unreal Bungie is way too use to their engine and for Destiny 2 it is impossible to switch you would have to make nearly everything form scratch and Unreal has its own isssues
To put it bluntly, putting Destiny on another engine would be a DISASTER. Not only would it be a monumental effort to transfer everything over, but every single programmer and developer would need to relearn everything they know from scratch instead of just using the engine they know like the back of their hands. D2 has been having enormous technical issues as of late, but it isn’t the engine’s fault, nor is it a sign that Bungie should migrate to a new one.
You are generally correct. Normally, it is a bad idea to transfer engines because of the difficulty in re-learning and transferring assets. However, engine changes are best judged on a case by case basis. Even if a company is very familiar with an engine, it might still be worth changing because the projects the company wants to do may not be as optimal with their current engine. Like with Bethesda, it doesn't make sense for them to switch from the Creation engine to something like Unreal because Creation is arguably the only engine in existence that does exactly what Bethesda wants for games like Fallout and TES in easily creating large open world RPGs with a ton of flexibility and allows modding. If Bethesda switched to Unreal, not only would they have to re-learn everything but they'd have to modify the engine like crazy in order to regain features they already had by default in Creation. So the better option would be improve on Creation. Even Modders who have worked on Creation say it is capable of great things and just needs to be improved. Conversely, for Bioware, it makes sense to switch from Frostbite to Unreal. Frostbite wasn't designed to make RPGs so Bioware has talked repeatedly about how even basic functions of RPGs like inventories were difficult to implement, leading to issues with Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem. Unreal is better suited for this task which is why even CDPR switched over to it after making Witcher 2, Witcher 3, Gwent and Cyberpunk in their RED Engine. And they even talked about how amazing their engine was and how they don't think they'd change it. Another benefit of Unreal is because of how it's licenced out, there's far more documentation and experience on it. It would potentially be easier to train a new recruit to use Unreal than it is to use Tiger. Hell, we know Bungie even uses Unreal to make prototypes because of how easy Unreal is to use. The issue with Destiny is that we don't know exactly which category the Tiger Engine falls into. We know it has problems in making content for Destiny but is that because it's a Bethesda Creation situation where the engine itself is fine but the team hasn't been given the time or resources to properly improve their technology? Or is it a Bioware Frostbite situation where the engine itself is simply incompatible with the ideas Bungie wants and it would be better to switch to Unreal which has demonstrated its ability to handle these types of games? Like, Destiny 2 was never intended to be a single game supported for years. It was initially meant to be replaced by Destiny 3 as per the Activision deal. Many of Bungie's issues with performance, stability and needing to use the DCV is because they are now indefinitely supporting a game designed to be done after 3 expansions. So we don't know if Tiger really is still the best engine for the job and can be easily modified to work with future Bungie projects, or if said future projects are better served with Unreal. There is conflicting evidence. There are some Bungie devs that have spoken against Tiger and how it should be replaced. And there are Bungie staff that defend Tiger. It's not like Creation where we have access to most of the Engine and can judge it for ourselves, or like Frostbite where devs have criticized non stop for years. So maybe we might actually see Destiny 3 on Unreal at some point in the future despite what Bungie says.
Btw tomorrow is the final week of the season 22, next week is season 23! Which brings the huge buff to hand cannons in PVE. Not sure if in game LFG and the rangefinder nerf is with this one but if you haven’t done what you needed to do then this is the last week. Maybe hunt some HC godrolls for PVE in the meantime and some last minute prep for the reprised raid coming
I mean.... Tiger engine FTW, Unreal engine 5 is extremely new and have alot of imperfections and gameplay looks slow, is toooo good for our platforms unless is a high tech PC i dont see it coming any time soon
Great video Cross . But I would point out a few things. Regardless of being their baby or not, If *and only IF*, the engine is indeed at the core of the issues. It needs to go. IF the engine is preventing the game from being stable IF The engine is preventing the game from keeping content IF The engine is preventing the game from growing IT needs to go. Doesn't matter if someone worked 10, 20 or 30 years on it. If it's no longer suitable, it needs to be replaced. And bear in mind, I know they will keep justifying keeping the engine through updated versions and improvements, but those are band aid fixes and delaying the issue to a later date, as before. Obviously, it all comes down to money. As long as they can keep milking money out of destiny without having to invest much into it, why would they? That money is better spent on Marathon instead. at this point, what we really should be asking is - IS Bungie even going to keep making Destiny after Final Shape ? Because if the final shape is the last one, Bungie couldnt care less about spending money on overhauling or even changing Destiny future engines.
Here is what most people don't understand. Porting D2 over to Unreal engine would take years. Everything would need to be recreated, you can't just copy and paste. Plus, while Unreal may be great from a world building perspective, what makes Destingy, Destiny is the feel of the engine, the motion, the gunplay. So they would need to update the physics part as well. Lastly, there is the whole multiplayer communications aspects, the multiple messaging components that would all have to be worked out. This whole process would take years to do properly so they would have to pause all current development, lock the game for 2 years, to change the engine. OR, they can just fix what they have. Which would you choose?
As far as I'm aware, I don't think any game, especially of this scale, has ever just been "moved" to a new engine. The game is created within the engine that makes it possible, you would be coding and calculating the physics in a completely new way to get the same experience. Just build a new game at that point. Basically complete tech illiteracy if you suggest "just get new engine" as if that wouldn't take 5+ years.
The fact they have to *sunset* so much with every xpac, shows how bad it is. Essentially they remove content you've paid for and won't ever be able to play it again. Even wow with their old as hell Engine and servers don't need to sunset. Bungie are lazy and it's minimum effort for maximum profit and unlikely it would change even if Destiny 3 was developed and they'd still sunset content
They're right in not changing the engine. This isn't some AAA studio who had a proprietary engine for a bunch of different games. No, the engine was taylor made FOR DESTINY. Why would anyone want any other generic engine instead of one taylor made for what the game does?
The tiger engine isn’t 20+ years old lol if that were true then unreal engine 5 and rockstars rage engine are also equally as old. No engine is built from the ground up now adays unless it’s small indie stuff. Rockstar uses the worlds most advanced engine and they’ve been using it since 2006 but it was just a heavily modified engine for what they used before. Bungies tiger engine is definitely outdated but I wouldn’t say they need to move to unreal engine 5 just upgrade their own engine like capcom, rockstar, etc… do
Before Beyond Light they did explain in quite a bit of technical detail why they implemented subsetting going over technical issues of both memory and “virtual” space that things take up and the that some of those previous guns wouldn’t work with the weapon rework, which was rather extensive. Honestly the Tiger engine is amazing for what it does. Point to any other game where the gun play is as crisp or the movement as fluid. It’s not out there for a reason…
Excellent video on the history of the Tiger Engine along with the early insighta of Destiny. One thing that I would mention is that Bungie themselves also blame their engine for its current shortcomings. This is important as this ties back to WHY the community feels that Destiny's engine is the problem.
Tbf the issues the game mainly face are server side which has nothing to do with the game engine. And from what I've seen of the behind the scenes development of in game content is quite easy back in d1 they said a whole armour set could take around a day to a day and a half of dev time so between 8-12 hours of work. Also the game engine is super lightweight at 1440p ultra in pc you pushing 2836mb of vram if it was on unreal or unity it would require a card with around 5gbs of vram due to the way it dose it's texture library. The fact you have people playing a 1080p 60 FPS on a gtx 970 today is impressive. And although the game has a multi thread rendering issue where GPUs are being under utilised due to the fact it was only coded for a quad core CPU. Back before witch queen you could turn on this setting in the config file and you would get a FPS boast of about 25-30fps at 1440p on a 1080ti on trostland but you would have graphical errors like the sea on titan not rendering and instead being a black void. But this isn't a priority fix for bungie as any GPU over a 2070 is getting around 140 FPS and if they fixed it you get closer to 230 FPS due to GPU usage being low. On Nessus I get currently 173fps on artifacts edge and my GPU usage is bouncing between 46% and 52% and I'm running a 4070ti on Ryzen 7 7800x3d so there no bottle neck hardware wise. If they fixed it my frame rate should increase by about 65% so around 285 FPS but because over 100 is playable it don't matter. Hopefully they will have fixed this in marathon as it's not an engine issue persay but the foundations the games built on
Yeah. They have to work so far in advance because of the engine and its really not conducive to a live service game. They will routinely announce a bug will be present in an update not coming for over a month, and say that the bug has been fixed, but the fix won't be deployed until the update after that one. Which tells you just how slow the development pace is. They can't respond quickly to feedback because they have to work so far in advance. Then theres the whole DCV clusterfuck which shouldn't even be legal. The way Bungie talks about development and their own admission that the engine causes problems shows that the Tiger engine has been holding Destiny back. A live service title needs more agile development to respond to issues and change things up.
I'm just curious, if they knew the blam engine wouldn't be sustainable long term, and they just decided to retrofit it to their needs anyway, how come they didn't have future sight to know that the tiger engine would have a limit as well? Things evolve in development all the time, and you have to try your best to future proof everything. Maybe I'm just not seeing it through their eyes, since this is a live service game, and nearly all games like these run on the same engine for decades... I don't know anymore.
I’m actually starting to watch Cross more and more again because of this content. At this point, most people know how to slam a Fallen SABRE with max rezz tokens in 10 mins, so this type of content is very welcome.
They're never gonna drop the Tiger engine. Ya'll gotta stop pretending that's a thing. Server stability has nothing to do with engine. Unreal engine doesn't even provide a server. Bungie would have to remake all the same architecture, including code, if they switched engines. Guess what? It'd be just as proprietary. I love you cross but dude. You don't understand how game techstacks work.
the only way Destiny would ever change engines is with a D3. People vastly underestimate the work required. Whether that be 'switching' engines to a pre-made one like Unity or Unreal. Or building a new engine from scratch. (I may be a software engineer and not a game dev so I cannot speak with total authority, but I certainly know enough to have a good idea)
“Engines take a lot of time, and a lot of manpower to build” Well we all know Bungie is lacking in resources to make it happen. With them being a struggling indie studio.
it's not only the engine, it's the infrastructure, And Migrating from one infrastructure to another is taking the damn effort, times, and testing, for games especially where u can't really pilot transition like business application, it may takes days or weeks
Yeah it would take years but if in 2010/2011 bungie thought the Blam engine was getting too old after a decade so then they completely overhauled it into the Tiger engine which is now also just over a decade old, should they not take 5+ years to overhaul it for the next Destiny entry maybe around the time of the next console generation? Like Destiny 2's content has not been evolving or really innovating in years, patrols are still basically the same as they were in D1 in terms of scale. I can only assume that Destiny 2 and its future is severely limited by its foundation. So I would not be against Destiny 2 going dark for them to really create an evolved and innovative Destiny experience 6+years down the road
@@Klodhvig the issue with live service, they can't have too long downtime, people will be mad This is why they do reboot on D1 to D2, where they can completely deploy the thing on new ecosystem. normally we would have Destiny 3, as Beyond Light, this allow bungie to have cutoff to make things more scalable to modern era. Not to mention no content were vaulted that way, but I guess Bungie don't want D2 Vanilla situation
1. Sunsetting still exists in destiny 2. Right this moment. 2. Dont give them an easy excuse to abuse. Wether they are working a new engine or not. As a consumer i dont give a shit. They screw us. All the time, im not going to let them shove some bullshit excuse down my throat any longer. Im done.
I have the filling that lightfall was so basic expansion so the team can have more time to make the final shape the perfect conclusion of the light and darkness saga
Thanks for the simplified look under the hood Cross, I know a lot of the D2 playerbase is......we'll say irritated with the technical aspects of Destiny rn, and it really helps, at least for me, to put all of the things that have happened into perspective. We can only hope that we are in the overhaul phase and all of this stuff is happening for a reason. As annoying as it is to get error coded in the present, personally I am willing to snort some Copium if it means a bright and stable future for Destiny as a franchise.
Will we get a video of what Destiny 1 was ever supposed to be before the full rewrite? Like a real/non-speculative video about what really happened. Why can't we have this story yet?
They should really use unreal. Unreal is the best. If solo devs can make some beautiful and functional games, then bungo with their 1.5k+ employees should be able to as well.
Even if they used another engine the game wont change due to how bungie works. Engine change wont matter until we see actual changes on the design of how destiny is being made at the core.
@@SavvyMon4why would they do that at beyond light?when majority of the population was still on Xbox one at that point lol. They wasn't gonna do that lol,it was a new dlc not a new game
This is going to be an odd nitpick but I wish for the love of god they'd go back to Destiny 1's more immersive lighting. Destiny 2's lighting isn't bad at all, more vibrant easily, but D1 was deep, atmospheric and bred mystery.
I get that the technical problems would be huge, but damn going through FF14 and able to play all the content they had since ARR has been awesome. I feel for those who can't play red war and all seasons up to now.
This game engine is built specifically for the sole purpose of building destiny 2. If we want content at the rate we want it then they'd have to customize unreal engine to the point it'd basically be the tiger engine. Also bungie doesn't need to pay any royalties to use their own software. I've seen so many bad takes on this stuff. Chris is one of the most experienced engine builders in the entire industry world wide. If he could make it better he'd be the one to talk to. And unless he's some kinda a-hole I'm sure he talks to other industry leaders to make the best software possible.
Cross, I don't normally comment but i just wanted to say: Thank you for giving a dev's perspective and explaining how engines evolve. More people need to understand what an engine is. As well as how the institutional knowledge of a company/devs is more important than losing your best engineers over using an over the counter engine.
Very good points. However, I would note that their claim of porting old content being nearly as time-consuming as making new content is indicative of some truly abysmal software design if it’s true.
@@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces I dont work at Bungie, but I have worked on AAA games as an artist. Normally we have to lock off our source control for integration of engine tools where I work but since I work from home I dont get to talk to the engineers. Are you familiar integrating engine versions? Id love to understand a bit more.
Last week of season 22 fellas and ladies 👀 Maybe they’ll be a cutscene or something leading us into the next season? Whatever it’ll be called. D2 may have its huge downs but when the new seasons drop or expansions, that fresh feeling always welcomes me home after a break 😌
> Sunsetting and DCV introduced to solve stability concerns > "That's BS just let us keep our stuff!" > Sunsetting removed > "Why is the game so buggy and unstable!?" Gee, I WONDER WHY! Look, I don't like sunsetting and vaulting content I paid for either, but they told us what the deal is and some community members can be very selective over what they remember/don't remember. While keeping it above board, most of the complaints we see today won't be solved until the year after TFS. We'll see if the game can survive until then.
The timeline for 2014 is kinda wrong. The game was NOT done by November 2013. Innfact most was unfinished. And by early 2014 they rebooted everything. And essentially spend like 7ish months making vanilla d1
Thanks for the history lesson. It was interesting. I do not offer Bungie any sympathy until I see tangible improvements. I did not buy Lightfall nor the current season. I am taking a break from D2. This remains the only video-game I play (since D1 launch) but I am taking a break. I am very aggravated with the lame excuses and dismissals of player-base feedback by Bungie. I feel disrespected and frustrated. Note: I'd like to see a experienced developer making a comparison between this Tiger Engine and Unreal Engine 5. Bungie will not switch but I am curious. The games on Unreal Engine 5 look amazing.
You gotta remember Bungie acts like they're STARVING.. they NEED people to log in every week and they will do literally anything to achieve that even if it results in an absolute trash experience. Destiny players (myself included) feel like we can't miss anything.. FOMO is so bad for us that we will log in for this waste of 10 minutes just so we don't miss something even though we know we wouldn't. Bungie exploits the crap out of this to get their numbers up. Just my wordy 2 cents lol
I'm an indie game dev with some experience in Triple A. I can tell you that they won't abandon the engine, just like Epic Games never abandoned Unreal Engine 1 which is now UE 5. When people don't have game development experience, they have no idea as to how complex a game engine is... that is why I dislike to see people asking a gaming company to "just change the game engine". Game Engines are literally are able to simulate real life, meaning physics. What do you think goes into programming all of it? You don't just need programmers, but real mathematicians and physicists, people who actually know how real life works. Game Engines are MASSIVE, absolute massive and even after YEARS of working on one, it WILL still suck, nowhere near good enough to make a Triple A game.
FINALLY SOME BACKGROUND INFO however overall, the lack of clarity, and the repeat of the same exact bugs and issues, in addition to the micro transactions, the aquisition, leaves no room for excuse at all. all of this drama and issue from the community could be eased or resolved if they were honest. but they have lied, hurt, and cheated us so many times. no longer can they stand on their old morals of "MAKING GREAT STUFF" , old bungie no longer exists, and thats the truth. hard to believe for some, but majority of the community would agree. as a shadow vet, who has influenced this community more times then i can count. created the idea of the rule of 8 and 6 for stat splitting. i can say without a doubt, that enouph is enouph. ive retired. but like me and many old school vets in the 100s of thousands that have left. we still look for a ray of hope. but that hope be very dim. all thanks to last 4-5 years of d2
I think it's past time we all grow up and get over the whole "sunsetting content WE PAID for thing". We don't pay for content we are gonna keep forever. Especially vidya gaem assets from an online game we play off online servers. The moment those servers are shut down forever, we are gonna lose access to those digital assets we bent out of shape for as stuff we paid for. No, we pay to ACCESS the servers that host the SOFTWARE IP that we use for entertainment. We essentially pay more rhan $100 per year for a software license. Just like we pay for our Office or Adobe or whatnot. We don't OWN anything. We never HAVE!
Activision never owned Bungie. Why does everyone keep saying that? They were an independent entity from after they split from Microsoft to before they were acquired by Sony. What they had was a publishing contract with Activision and Activision owning the Destiny IP. That's why the split was so expensive. They had to buy out both the contract AND buy the Destiny IP from Activision.
The reason Bungie wont switch to a new engine for D2 is because it would take YEARS to remake the entire game in another engine. You cant just copy and paste a game into a new engine like it's a Word document going to Google Docs, that's not how games work. They would have to rebuild their entire codebase from scratch, and if it's in another language than what Tiger uses it would take even longer to translate AND THEN rebuild it, if that language would support what D2 has to begin with. They might also have to rework lighting using the new engine's lighting tools, remake textures and assets to fit the new engine's graphics system, re-animate animations on character models, remake the AI, remake maps, set up a new paid store system, reconnect the servers, yadda yadda you get the point. They aren't sticking with Tiger just because it's "their baby," it's because it's what they had when they built the game and trying to rebuild it all is a gargantuan task that would probably take another decade to do, all while adding new live content that entire time that would then also have to be converted. Plus their institutional knowledge is in Tiger and Blam, and has been for over 20 years. Switching all that over to something new would take a TON of retraining and changing their entire development pipeline to fit the new system. Remember that custom code they discovered in the IKELOS SMG that changed it's recoil pattern? Imagine how many other thousands or millions of little custom changes are hidden in the code that make Destiny, Destiny. Imagine what would happen if some of those were lost in the move to a new engine, and suddenly Destiny didn't FEEL like Destiny anymore. Tiger was built specifically FOR Destiny, and it's a big part of what makes it the game we know and love. Changing that would cause so many ripple effects that would just lead to it feeling like a totally different game. The reason some Bungie devs may have used Unity or Unreal while working there is more likely because Unity and Unreal are built specifically to be easy and fast to use, as they are available to the general public. That's why you see so many indie games using them. You can make up a quick prototype insanely fast in Unity or especially in Unreal using code blueprints and pre-made assets that a custom engine like Tiger probably wouldn't have. Unity and Unreal are also the two most common engines in the gamedev industry (and Source as well), so it makes sense to require knowledge of it, especially if Tiger uses the same code language as Unreal (C++_. Obviously they can't require experience in Tiger because you can only use it at Bungie, so they require the closest available option, Unreal.
You raise some interesting points towards the end of the video - it would be great for the game if it was only breaking now because they're focusing on fixing it for the future, and hearing that from Bungie themselves would likely win them back some faith from the community (though still not enough to get back in the good books). Which is exactly why I DON'T think that's what's going on behind the scenes. At any point, they (Bungie) could have said "hey, we're focusing on updating the engine across the board, so things might get rough for a while", and earned a lot of leeway from the players. That holds especially true now, when player sentiment is so overwhelmingly negative. So why not say it if that's the reason? To me, only two options make sense: A) There are no grand, widespread improvements being made or B) The PR Team/Management think it's smarter to surprise us with it when the updates are ready Given that, as I mentioned, player sentiment is the lowest it's been since CoO, the game might die (which is only a slight exaggeration at this point) before those updates are done, so the management/PR team would have to have a room-temperature IQ to think option B is viable Feel free to reply with any questions/discussion you feel appropriate, as I still genuinely want this game to see its potential realised. I'm just realising how unlikely that is. (For reference, I've been around since early D1, have several thousand hours in the franchise, and stuck with it through every lull and dip. I even played consistently through the various content droughts and got on nearly every day in CoO. Now, I haven't played more than 3 hours in the several weeks since the seasonal story ended.)
Bungie tends to lie, in 2019 they said the exo stranger's storyline was finished and would never return, then beyond light released. They also said the G-horn would never make a return, then oh look 30th anniversary bundle. In 2020 they said they will never make a DLC as big as forsaken, then witch queen dropped. There have already been leaks of road maps and pipelines mentioning a new engine, developers have also stated there are a lot of background bugs from the fact that the engine is made for a looter shooter and requires "hotwiring code" for it to work in the MMORPG style it runs now.
Modder/dataminer here. This is not realistic at all. Game engines can't just be swapped out like tennis shoes. That means retraining on new workflows entirely (can take months or years), porting content would be essentially remaking it from scratch, engineers have to build it and maintain it going forward (huge investment). I am also a video editor so I can perhaps explain another way. Imagine swapping editing software. Or even building your own. If you swap it, you are having to pay a lot of money while still having no control over the software because another company is managing it. If they want to remove the ability to export, too bad for you. If they make a change to rendering that doubles the time to render, oh well. If you make it yourself, you have total control but this is absurdly expensive. No matter what you have to relearn it. Maybe the new software also isn't compatible with your preferred video file type. It has less capabilities than the current because it doesn't have as much built into it from it's tenure. Now imagine it being 100x more complicated and magnitudes larger than video editing. That's game dev and engines. One of the most prolific mod discord servers I'm in forbids engine discussion because 99% of the time the people who whine about game engines are completely ignorant about them. They aren't going to a new engine because "it's their baby". They aren't doing it because there's now way to certify it'll be worth the investment (see Halo Infinite's "new engine"). "Just do big upgrades then!" Well that's what Beyond Light was. Hence the content cut. Beyond Light was what everyone asked for. Destiny 2 launch was what everyone asked for. Both were crap. Both meant losing so much and for not enough in return. They are doing continual upgrades and maintenance. That's actually what is happening with the recent error codes, is unseen bugs that slipped through in development.
Lightfall was the shot from the 6th floor for me. I no longer care what the problems are. I still love watching your youtube vids and catching a stream every once in a while. Thanks for being you and keep it up!
TLDW the engine needs to go, but it's the least of their problems. What's going on at Bungie is a systemic cancer of lies, greed, and GoT level betrayal of the community. Looking forward to watching Cayde's 2 minute cutscene on UA-cam but that'll probably get cut for overdelivery.
I don't care what changes they make to Tiger, I just miss the lighting system of D1, everything looked softer and more firm. The textures actually looked like they have depth in D1, whereas D2 looks plasticky, oversaturated, and if you look closely, visually shallow at times. I will stick with the game, only if Final Shape can deliver.
Alright, now we need a history for every hamster that worked on the Tiger Engine
Bungie powering Destiny how Doofenshmirtz powered Norm.
@@osteohiveporosis6882how
They can’t because they are under NDA 😂😂😂
Many Hamsters died to get us this engine.
You're not funny
The Blam engine was phenomenal, and I think the Tiger engine is also great. The older Halo games still hold up remarkably well, and Destiny 2 feels amazing to play too, just from a purely mechanical standpoint. But it's pretty obvious that the Tiger engine wasn't designed for a game as massive as D2, and it needs a massive overhaul. If they really do plan to continue D2 after the Final Shape (which I seriously doubt), they need to take a break and just focus on upgrading the engine.
Hopefully some people will take this as an opportunity to appreciate the scale and complexity of such things, and learn that sometimes you really are whining about things you don’t even remotely understand
Literally 10 seconds into this video he says server down time and maintenance, and just then I got a tweet about Destiny server downtime lol
As much as we want everything to be instant and how or society is filled with instant gratification things take time to perfect whether it’s creating video games making movies or anything else it takes time which sucks but it’s necessary.
2:28 it's sad to see how far the company is straying from this philosophy. I'm sure the majority of people at Bungie who are actually developing the games share this view as well, but Bungie as a whole is sadly valuing profit over joy and players. If you make something truly great, the money will come aplenty.
The reason why it’s different is because Halo was an advertisement for Xbox.
The main reason is gamers sadly they accept anything from developers they need to start holding the products they purchase to a higher value
So we’re doing documentaries now? Cool!
I'm not saying they should move to Unreal becausethat would put more strain on literally all other teams. Would destiny look even better, yeah, absolutely, but at some point, updating or modifying the engine will only do so much. But since Chris and his team have this much experience with making and upgrading their engine, they should strive to make an engine that exceeds what they've done in the past. Just my thoughts, yeah, it'll be a good while before it would appear, but they have to knowledge to make it happen
I'm just guessing, but I think the tiger engine it's the core of gunplay and weapon customization like perks and how the studio implements changes to weapons and abilities, if Bungie starts using a new engine, the game would feel different and probably make it more difficult to implement changes, about unreal 5 if it is true it's probably a completely different game, probably not even a shooter
the engine is absolutely unreal not gonna lie, yeah the downtimes suck sometimes but the gameplay is like no other game
lmao, you must not play very many games...because you have no money from giving it all to Bungie for ripping you off.
@@oldsk00lman just shut up 😆
yah man, the engine is beast.
@@oldsk00l well to be fair, its 500 dollars for most of the content. If you're broke cause 500 dollars then you should look at yourself and what you're doing. One day you'll get it together man and have some money to blow on bullshit
@@McMTG ahahahaha, nice try. All the poor fools who blow $500 on a mediocre game and defend it, those are the pathetic broke AF people huffing copium because they could’ve blown it on hookers & blow, orrrrr set fire to $500. With the weak ass content, you get more entertainment throwing $500 off a bridge than buying this shit. Lol nice try, but you outed yourself.
This is a pheonmenal video and a great history lesson. I love deep dives like this into some random niche aspect of the development of games I love.
Really well made and well scripted. Kudos to you and your team!
So much good info here that we would never see, otherwise. The development timeline details were fantastic.
Definitely the types of videos we need to see more of, not some "yOu dOnT kNow aBoUt eNgiNe nEitHeR dO I" stuff lol
theres no good info here. i dont need a pity party about the devs being too stupid to make a new engine, and instead bandaid a 20 year old engine, and not even upgrade server tickrates about the garbage 20hz weve been stuck with. 20 year old engine 20 year old server.
you can give a shit about the lame excuses all you want. this is all stuff that has been known if you gave a shit and werent lazy. all this money from suing cheaters and eververse predation and we got shitty ass 5hz tick rate at this point because the game is getting worse.
To be fair, the talk 80% of this comes from has been on UA-cam since 2015. People just don’t know to watch the GDC talks because they’re dry af
Why are so many important people at Bungie named Chris? I count 3 now right?
Just as common as Alex
@@Odinarcade00 fair yeah
I LOVE these types of videos in general. To see how far a gaming company has gone from with the Blam Engine to now. What makes them tick? Etc. I'm currently using the Godot Engine, so this is nice to see the similarities and differences.
Check out November hotel
based godot user
@@Chris-iq5pr W november hotel viewer
@@Chris-iq5pr I've seen his videos about the game engine too. There soild videos.
Money makes them tick. That’s it.
I was excited for this video and you didn't disappoint. Great work to Cross and his team.
🍻
Would be super cool if they made a new badass engine and called it the Warmind engine
That's the #1 thing I want to see from Bungie at this point. I have no interest in D2 anymore, I want a fresh start. That's the only thing that would truly reignite my desire to play Destiny again
@@BethesdaModdercan’t wait for them to try to sell us new exotic ornaments for the same reissued exotic weapons in a “new” game….
The telesto engine
I still don't find the sunsetting argument valid. If adding more content to the game caused issues, then you find back-end solutions to it, not force a front end solution on the users. An example is if google is having bandwidth capacity issues on UA-cam, the correct solution would be to expand/increase the bandwidth, a back-end solution. The wrong solution would be to force every user to 360p max and thumbnails are now 180p max, a front end solution which makes the experience worse for every user.
Mm. They wanted to do a Destiny 3 but without the costs to themselves of doing a D3. So they deleted most of Destiny 2 instead. That shouldn't even have been legal, let alone a good idea. If the game couldn't handle adding more to it, thats their problem to solve. As it stands they picked the worst possible solution. They didn't get a fresh slate on either the sandbox front or technical fronts because they had all of the Destiny 2 gear still kicking around, but Destiny 2's content was irreversibly removed.
Ill just say this once, engine is not an issue, for example unreal has been around since 1996 but you dont say games made in unreal 5 are using an outdated engine now do you?
Ya know, content is hard and stuff....
I would go as far as to say that the pandemic let them make excuses. I can see some employees refusing to adapt this making it easier for them to scrap content as an excuse for negligence during that time. Obviously it was hard for everyone but their commitment to the community definitely got fractured and they have become too comfortable with under delivery
Not even a week ago every destiny streamer was shitting on bungie for what they've done. All it took was one list of exotic reworks and he they are trying to sell you the same broken / overpriced game.
Man, that Halo Reach E3 trailer where we see Noble Team for the first time is so damn good. Had to watch it again for the millionth time after seeing it here
Reach is a great game. I never really got into any of the Halo games since. The sad and essentially hopeless plot is rare in gaming where devs are scared to do anything other than a power fantasy where you always save the day.
The buyout doesn’t mean they get billions to pay for development. It means the investors and stockholders get 3.6 billion, and bungie now needs Sony money
I'm a simple man, Aztecross uploads, I bust 🫡
Dude, same
Excuse me!?! Nah that’s mad S U S
Amen, brother.
Ayoooo
Amen
"Bungie's purpose is to make great stuff". Hits very differently now.
now it’s make as much money as possible, quality or stability be damned
“Bungie’s purpose is to make less content and charge more money” - Mr. Bungie 2023
@Fenneken141 yeah none of this is because of Sony. At the end of the day, bungie isn't the same. Clearly, we know bungie is the problem after the Activision split.
@@Fenneken141i think Destiny is owned by Bungie regardless if Sony bought the company. Sony might have say on their other games though.
@@Fenneken141how do people keep blaming anyone but bungie when they did this shit after the Acti split and before the Sony buyout, this had nothing to do with sony
The problem with Destiny, was not the engine, it was the tools needed to support the engine. Look at the Delivery Goals on the slide Cross showed. They gave themselves a C. It took forever to fix even the smallest thing because people had to go in and edit the code directly. Every pollygon was manually placed. You don't program this way, Bungie even knew this, but they were in a hurry to get D2 out the door so they took a lot of shortcuts. They have gotten better over time. For example, they can now make changes to gun architypes in one shot, vs manually having to edit each and every weapon in the game. You think S22 sandbox range reallignment could have been done 3 or 4 years ago, no way.
The engine is just the base, it is the tools they build around the engine that either makes development easy and fast, or difficut and time consuming.
But what would that mean for vaulted content that according to "Bungie" would be reworked and added back? Cause as far as the signs show, Destiny 2 has been completely vaulted and since Beyond Light at least (when sunsetting was introduced), we are technically in Destiny 3 (since all of Destiny 2's content was vaulted).
Very well put. Thank you for this insightful reply. Bless.
@@DarthDragon007 - From a program point of view, vaulted content was said to save space. Yes, less things to take care of in the game, fewer encounters to QA with new items. Plus, it saves on console resources. Bungie probably ran a bunch of metrics to see who was running that old content and it was probably pretty small vs the cost of constantly having to test and maintain it on new releases. From a programming point of view, the fewer things in the game you have to maintain, the easier and faster it is to make changes to move forward.
@@rogerhuston8287 Which is why they should have kept going with creating Destiny 3 as a fully separate game for Beyond Light to Final Shape and not added in season content and battle passes. Complete with reworked engine that is able to support the changes to Destiny becoming a Live Service game. Destiny 2 and it's modified Tiger Engine was not made to support what Destiny has become now currently, Live Service.
And in my opinion, why should it matter if we "start over" like people complained about? I get it, it'll suck to lose stuff you grinded hard for going into Destiny 3, but you aren't frikken losing it completely! It'll still be in Destiny 2, just not in Destiny 3!
@@DarthDragon007 - I'm not sure I agree with you. New game, new game engine, they are doing that with Marathon, not enough resources to do it for D3. Also, not sold on the idea new is better. New just comes with its own set of problems to overcome and D2 was just a shell of D1 at the start, it took years to get a game that felt as well rounded as D1 at the end. Not sure I want to start over. Besides, all those resources are going into Marathon, that is D3.
Despite all of the problems that the Tiger engine and Destiny 1/2 have or have had, you have to commend Bungie on a technical masterpiece. Destiny 1 ran at 720p, 30 frames per second on console hardware from 2005 (PS3 and Xbox 360). The Xbox 360 had 512MB of total system memory and only 10MB of dedicated video memory (VRAM) and was running on an outdated PowerPC CPU and an ATI GPU combo. The fact that a game as complex as Destiny 1, which released in 2014 and received updates on last-gen consoles until 2016, even ran on this old hardware is truly mind-blowing. Nowadays, we all complain about Destiny 2 performance issues and server issues, but I think some people don't realize how hard upkeeping a game as large as Destiny 2 can be. I'm not defending Bungie at all here, but the fact that D2 supports Xbox One/Series S/X, PS4/PS5, PC, and at one time Stadia, all while providing crossplay and PC OS/hardware/software changes, is extremely impressive. Sure, it's easy to point fingers at the Destiny engine and complain, but if you take a step back, the Tiger engine and the fact that it's lasted and evolved through so many years is something that few game studios or engine developers can say they've been able to achieve with any engine or game series.
And THAT right there is the BIGGEST problem with Destiny right now. It is STILL supported on Xbox One and PS4. Bungie and other developers need to MOVE ON FROM THE 8TH GENERATION CONSOLES!!!! Bungie did it once from the 7th Gen to the 8th Gen, and now it's time to do it again. But they won't.
One man's tecjnical masterpiece is another mans held together with zip ties and duck tape miracle
@@cluelessclownWould you rather fix your bucket just to get you from point a to b or to make whole a new car that could still be a bucket.
@@RhapsodicXStyle07 you're right. I'd keep fixing the old bucket or just ignore problems with it. And all the while charging the people that ride more and more and more. Then when people complain I'll just say "it's hard"
@@cluelessclown Would you rather let good enough be or risk everything on something untested and unknown. The only people who are saying getting a new engine will fix everything are people who don't have any understanding and computer engineering.
Either way removing the campaign is their problem not ours. They need to put the time and money into fixing it. Idgaf I miss the halo days when they kept the campaign accessible and playable forever
Imagine how much content we would have if nothing was ever removed or put into DCV....😔
@@oldboy4271and the thing is I can understand sunsetting weapons for balancing issues but it also shows they were unwilling to rebalance those weapons. All they need to do is add the levels back and rework the loot pool to meet their standards so I know wtf is actually going on. I beat lighttfall first and I’m playing random campaigns In random orders
@@Odinarcade00 Mm. I'd have been happy with a complete sandbox reset, that wasn't the issue. Removing the actual content was the issue.
In classic bungie fashion they were so noncommittal that they didn't even commit to the weapon sunsetting properly. Doing the staggered rollout so they didn't even get a fresh sandbox out of it.
@@ASpaceOstrich hell nah I WANNA PLAY THE CAMPAIGN why doesn’t anyone else? Why am I going crazy alone? Why does nobody understand I play bungie games to complete the campaign and then move on to the PvP? Is that alien?
as brought up when that guy said Form Software should switch to unreal
Bungie is way too use to their engine and for Destiny 2 it is impossible to switch you would have to make nearly everything form scratch and Unreal has its own isssues
1997 is the year the Blam! Manga released. Strange coincidence?
To put it bluntly, putting Destiny on another engine would be a DISASTER. Not only would it be a monumental effort to transfer everything over, but every single programmer and developer would need to relearn everything they know from scratch instead of just using the engine they know like the back of their hands. D2 has been having enormous technical issues as of late, but it isn’t the engine’s fault, nor is it a sign that Bungie should migrate to a new one.
The community obsession with using the engine as a scapegoat makes little sense. Game engines don’t host the game
You are generally correct. Normally, it is a bad idea to transfer engines because of the difficulty in re-learning and transferring assets.
However, engine changes are best judged on a case by case basis. Even if a company is very familiar with an engine, it might still be worth changing because the projects the company wants to do may not be as optimal with their current engine.
Like with Bethesda, it doesn't make sense for them to switch from the Creation engine to something like Unreal because Creation is arguably the only engine in existence that does exactly what Bethesda wants for games like Fallout and TES in easily creating large open world RPGs with a ton of flexibility and allows modding. If Bethesda switched to Unreal, not only would they have to re-learn everything but they'd have to modify the engine like crazy in order to regain features they already had by default in Creation. So the better option would be improve on Creation. Even Modders who have worked on Creation say it is capable of great things and just needs to be improved.
Conversely, for Bioware, it makes sense to switch from Frostbite to Unreal. Frostbite wasn't designed to make RPGs so Bioware has talked repeatedly about how even basic functions of RPGs like inventories were difficult to implement, leading to issues with Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem. Unreal is better suited for this task which is why even CDPR switched over to it after making Witcher 2, Witcher 3, Gwent and Cyberpunk in their RED Engine. And they even talked about how amazing their engine was and how they don't think they'd change it. Another benefit of Unreal is because of how it's licenced out, there's far more documentation and experience on it. It would potentially be easier to train a new recruit to use Unreal than it is to use Tiger. Hell, we know Bungie even uses Unreal to make prototypes because of how easy Unreal is to use.
The issue with Destiny is that we don't know exactly which category the Tiger Engine falls into. We know it has problems in making content for Destiny but is that because it's a Bethesda Creation situation where the engine itself is fine but the team hasn't been given the time or resources to properly improve their technology? Or is it a Bioware Frostbite situation where the engine itself is simply incompatible with the ideas Bungie wants and it would be better to switch to Unreal which has demonstrated its ability to handle these types of games?
Like, Destiny 2 was never intended to be a single game supported for years. It was initially meant to be replaced by Destiny 3 as per the Activision deal. Many of Bungie's issues with performance, stability and needing to use the DCV is because they are now indefinitely supporting a game designed to be done after 3 expansions. So we don't know if Tiger really is still the best engine for the job and can be easily modified to work with future Bungie projects, or if said future projects are better served with Unreal. There is conflicting evidence. There are some Bungie devs that have spoken against Tiger and how it should be replaced. And there are Bungie staff that defend Tiger. It's not like Creation where we have access to most of the Engine and can judge it for ourselves, or like Frostbite where devs have criticized non stop for years.
So maybe we might actually see Destiny 3 on Unreal at some point in the future despite what Bungie says.
Btw tomorrow is the final week of the season 22, next week is season 23! Which brings the huge buff to hand cannons in PVE. Not sure if in game LFG and the rangefinder nerf is with this one but if you haven’t done what you needed to do then this is the last week. Maybe hunt some HC godrolls for PVE in the meantime and some last minute prep for the reprised raid coming
I mean.... Tiger engine FTW, Unreal engine 5 is extremely new and have alot of imperfections and gameplay looks slow, is toooo good for our platforms unless is a high tech PC i dont see it coming any time soon
Great video Cross . But I would point out a few things.
Regardless of being their baby or not, If *and only IF*, the engine is indeed at the core of the issues.
It needs to go.
IF the engine is preventing the game from being stable
IF The engine is preventing the game from keeping content
IF The engine is preventing the game from growing
IT needs to go.
Doesn't matter if someone worked 10, 20 or 30 years on it. If it's no longer suitable, it needs to be replaced.
And bear in mind, I know they will keep justifying keeping the engine through updated versions and improvements, but those are band aid fixes and delaying the issue to a later date, as before.
Obviously, it all comes down to money. As long as they can keep milking money out of destiny without having to invest much into it, why would they? That money is better spent on Marathon instead.
at this point, what we really should be asking is - IS Bungie even going to keep making Destiny after Final Shape ?
Because if the final shape is the last one, Bungie couldnt care less about spending money on overhauling or even changing Destiny future engines.
Tiger! Tiger! Ti...........gggggggg.........errr!
You have received an error code: Weasle
Tiger Engine has been around since the age of Christ.
Here is what most people don't understand. Porting D2 over to Unreal engine would take years. Everything would need to be recreated, you can't just copy and paste. Plus, while Unreal may be great from a world building perspective, what makes Destingy, Destiny is the feel of the engine, the motion, the gunplay. So they would need to update the physics part as well. Lastly, there is the whole multiplayer communications aspects, the multiple messaging components that would all have to be worked out. This whole process would take years to do properly so they would have to pause all current development, lock the game for 2 years, to change the engine. OR, they can just fix what they have. Which would you choose?
As far as I'm aware, I don't think any game, especially of this scale, has ever just been "moved" to a new engine. The game is created within the engine that makes it possible, you would be coding and calculating the physics in a completely new way to get the same experience. Just build a new game at that point. Basically complete tech illiteracy if you suggest "just get new engine" as if that wouldn't take 5+ years.
The fact they have to *sunset* so much with every xpac, shows how bad it is.
Essentially they remove content you've paid for and won't ever be able to play it again.
Even wow with their old as hell Engine and servers don't need to sunset.
Bungie are lazy and it's minimum effort for maximum profit and unlikely it would change even if Destiny 3 was developed and they'd still sunset content
They're right in not changing the engine. This isn't some AAA studio who had a proprietary engine for a bunch of different games. No, the engine was taylor made FOR DESTINY. Why would anyone want any other generic engine instead of one taylor made for what the game does?
The tiger engine isn’t 20+ years old lol if that were true then unreal engine 5 and rockstars rage engine are also equally as old. No engine is built from the ground up now adays unless it’s small indie stuff. Rockstar uses the worlds most advanced engine and they’ve been using it since 2006 but it was just a heavily modified engine for what they used before. Bungies tiger engine is definitely outdated but I wouldn’t say they need to move to unreal engine 5 just upgrade their own engine like capcom, rockstar, etc… do
Before Beyond Light they did explain in quite a bit of technical detail why they implemented subsetting going over technical issues of both memory and “virtual” space that things take up and the that some of those previous guns wouldn’t work with the weapon rework, which was rather extensive. Honestly the Tiger engine is amazing for what it does. Point to any other game where the gun play is as crisp or the movement as fluid. It’s not out there for a reason…
Excellent video on the history of the Tiger Engine along with the early insighta of Destiny. One thing that I would mention is that Bungie themselves also blame their engine for its current shortcomings. This is important as this ties back to WHY the community feels that Destiny's engine is the problem.
Tbf the issues the game mainly face are server side which has nothing to do with the game engine. And from what I've seen of the behind the scenes development of in game content is quite easy back in d1 they said a whole armour set could take around a day to a day and a half of dev time so between 8-12 hours of work. Also the game engine is super lightweight at 1440p ultra in pc you pushing 2836mb of vram if it was on unreal or unity it would require a card with around 5gbs of vram due to the way it dose it's texture library. The fact you have people playing a 1080p 60 FPS on a gtx 970 today is impressive. And although the game has a multi thread rendering issue where GPUs are being under utilised due to the fact it was only coded for a quad core CPU. Back before witch queen you could turn on this setting in the config file and you would get a FPS boast of about 25-30fps at 1440p on a 1080ti on trostland but you would have graphical errors like the sea on titan not rendering and instead being a black void. But this isn't a priority fix for bungie as any GPU over a 2070 is getting around 140 FPS and if they fixed it you get closer to 230 FPS due to GPU usage being low. On Nessus I get currently 173fps on artifacts edge and my GPU usage is bouncing between 46% and 52% and I'm running a 4070ti on Ryzen 7 7800x3d so there no bottle neck hardware wise. If they fixed it my frame rate should increase by about 65% so around 285 FPS but because over 100 is playable it don't matter. Hopefully they will have fixed this in marathon as it's not an engine issue persay but the foundations the games built on
Yeah. They have to work so far in advance because of the engine and its really not conducive to a live service game. They will routinely announce a bug will be present in an update not coming for over a month, and say that the bug has been fixed, but the fix won't be deployed until the update after that one. Which tells you just how slow the development pace is. They can't respond quickly to feedback because they have to work so far in advance. Then theres the whole DCV clusterfuck which shouldn't even be legal.
The way Bungie talks about development and their own admission that the engine causes problems shows that the Tiger engine has been holding Destiny back. A live service title needs more agile development to respond to issues and change things up.
I'm just curious, if they knew the blam engine wouldn't be sustainable long term, and they just decided to retrofit it to their needs anyway, how come they didn't have future sight to know that the tiger engine would have a limit as well? Things evolve in development all the time, and you have to try your best to future proof everything. Maybe I'm just not seeing it through their eyes, since this is a live service game, and nearly all games like these run on the same engine for decades... I don't know anymore.
I like that Europa was such a big thing for the engine and then they never did anything with that going forward.
I’m actually starting to watch Cross more and more again because of this content. At this point, most people know how to slam a Fallen SABRE with max rezz tokens in 10 mins, so this type of content is very welcome.
Old Bungie: Not About Money, but making great stuff
Modern Bungie: It’s About Money and Blamming fans for making stuff
love this video cause its something POSITIVE and explain the hardships in game dev , Game Engines and YES Destiny engine is Bungies BABY
I can’t wait to see what the other 40% of non delivered promises look like!
They're never gonna drop the Tiger engine. Ya'll gotta stop pretending that's a thing. Server stability has nothing to do with engine. Unreal engine doesn't even provide a server. Bungie would have to remake all the same architecture, including code, if they switched engines. Guess what? It'd be just as proprietary. I love you cross but dude. You don't understand how game techstacks work.
10:10 Game Engine Team Size: 440 with 65 Engineers! If there are only 50 (software) engineers what are the rest doing? Managers? lol
the only way Destiny would ever change engines is with a D3. People vastly underestimate the work required. Whether that be 'switching' engines to a pre-made one like Unity or Unreal. Or building a new engine from scratch. (I may be a software engineer and not a game dev so I cannot speak with total authority, but I certainly know enough to have a good idea)
“Engines take a lot of time, and a lot of manpower to build”
Well we all know Bungie is lacking in resources to make it happen. With them being a struggling indie studio.
Would be cool if Bungie outsourced the work they apparently don't have time for. Or hired more people. Or both.
it's not only the engine, it's the infrastructure,
And Migrating from one infrastructure to another is taking the damn effort, times, and testing, for games especially where u can't really pilot transition like business application, it may takes days or weeks
Yeah it would take years but if in 2010/2011 bungie thought the Blam engine was getting too old after a decade so then they completely overhauled it into the Tiger engine which is now also just over a decade old, should they not take 5+ years to overhaul it for the next Destiny entry maybe around the time of the next console generation?
Like Destiny 2's content has not been evolving or really innovating in years, patrols are still basically the same as they were in D1 in terms of scale. I can only assume that Destiny 2 and its future is severely limited by its foundation. So I would not be against Destiny 2 going dark for them to really create an evolved and innovative Destiny experience 6+years down the road
@@Klodhvig
the issue with live service, they can't have too long downtime, people will be mad
This is why they do reboot on D1 to D2, where they can completely deploy the thing on new ecosystem.
normally we would have Destiny 3, as Beyond Light, this allow bungie to have cutoff to make things more scalable to modern era.
Not to mention no content were vaulted that way, but I guess Bungie don't want D2 Vanilla situation
Is this MxR Mods' long lost cousin?
Ok chief I’m going to be honest just stop/support playing the game at this point
1. Sunsetting still exists in destiny 2. Right this moment.
2. Dont give them an easy excuse to abuse. Wether they are working a new engine or not. As a consumer i dont give a shit. They screw us. All the time, im not going to let them shove some bullshit excuse down my throat any longer. Im done.
Amen brother
I have the filling that lightfall was so basic expansion so the team can have more time to make the final shape the perfect conclusion of the light and darkness saga
Thanks for the simplified look under the hood Cross, I know a lot of the D2 playerbase is......we'll say irritated with the technical aspects of Destiny rn, and it really helps, at least for me, to put all of the things that have happened into perspective. We can only hope that we are in the overhaul phase and all of this stuff is happening for a reason. As annoying as it is to get error coded in the present, personally I am willing to snort some Copium if it means a bright and stable future for Destiny as a franchise.
Will we get a video of what Destiny 1 was ever supposed to be before the full rewrite? Like a real/non-speculative video about what really happened. Why can't we have this story yet?
If you mean the story, the Traveler is evil and the player character Guarduan rebels with some outlaws.
"You don't know anything about game engines."
-Datto, 2023
Fantastic video Cross! Informative and well put together. Loved it 🙏🏼
Another day boys, and another cross vid!
i honestly really like the look of the tiger engine
It was good a few years ago... We are now in 2023!
@@Dan-jl5ej but whats bad about it?
We need Destiny 3! Clean slate and a chance to upgrade their engine with a fresh start!
They should really use unreal. Unreal is the best. If solo devs can make some beautiful and functional games, then bungo with their 1.5k+ employees should be able to as well.
At that point they’d just be making a new game, which they’re already doing with Marathon and everyone here is super angry about that.
Even if they used another engine the game wont change due to how bungie works.
Engine change wont matter until we see actual changes on the design of how destiny is being made at the core.
Either get rid of it or update for Next gen ( PS5 / high end PC only )
2:36 man do i miss this Bungie 😢
Glad to see you branching out more, this analytical stuff is good.
Well done good sir, this was objective information that is helpful for folks to know.
Lmao love how there’s a bottle of patron on his desk at 3:08
Ooo AzTechross is here, let's see what's cookin
Take a shot every time you hear "Tiger Engine"
just probably about time to move on from D2
Now Bungie just BLAMs all over us
Drop old gen consoles too. Limitations to the game because of them.
Should have happened with beyond light or witch queen
@@SavvyMon4why would they do that at beyond light?when majority of the population was still on Xbox one at that point lol. They wasn't gonna do that lol,it was a new dlc not a new game
Agreed
@@Cloudcity20old consoles are still holding back the current gen consoles eventually they are gonna drop em
Bungie purpose is not to make money, that aged like fine milk.
That changed when they stopped making exclusives.
This is going to be an odd nitpick but I wish for the love of god they'd go back to Destiny 1's more immersive lighting. Destiny 2's lighting isn't bad at all, more vibrant easily, but D1 was deep, atmospheric and bred mystery.
I get that the technical problems would be huge, but damn going through FF14 and able to play all the content they had since ARR has been awesome.
I feel for those who can't play red war and all seasons up to now.
Considering ARR was on a different engine from 1.0
This game engine is built specifically for the sole purpose of building destiny 2. If we want content at the rate we want it then they'd have to customize unreal engine to the point it'd basically be the tiger engine. Also bungie doesn't need to pay any royalties to use their own software. I've seen so many bad takes on this stuff. Chris is one of the most experienced engine builders in the entire industry world wide. If he could make it better he'd be the one to talk to. And unless he's some kinda a-hole I'm sure he talks to other industry leaders to make the best software possible.
Cross, I don't normally comment but i just wanted to say:
Thank you for giving a dev's perspective and explaining how engines evolve. More people need to understand what an engine is. As well as how the institutional knowledge of a company/devs is more important than losing your best engineers over using an over the counter engine.
Very good points. However, I would note that their claim of porting old content being nearly as time-consuming as making new content is indicative of some truly abysmal software design if it’s true.
@@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces I dont work at Bungie, but I have worked on AAA games as an artist. Normally we have to lock off our source control for integration of engine tools where I work but since I work from home I dont get to talk to the engineers. Are you familiar integrating engine versions? Id love to understand a bit more.
I’m as old as the blam engine 🤔
handsome voice
Last week of season 22 fellas and ladies 👀
Maybe they’ll be a cutscene or something leading us into the next season? Whatever it’ll be called. D2 may have its huge downs but when the new seasons drop or expansions, that fresh feeling always welcomes me home after a break 😌
> Sunsetting and DCV introduced to solve stability concerns
> "That's BS just let us keep our stuff!"
> Sunsetting removed
> "Why is the game so buggy and unstable!?"
Gee, I WONDER WHY!
Look, I don't like sunsetting and vaulting content I paid for either, but they told us what the deal is and some community members can be very selective over what they remember/don't remember.
While keeping it above board, most of the complaints we see today won't be solved until the year after TFS. We'll see if the game can survive until then.
The timeline for 2014 is kinda wrong.
The game was NOT done by November 2013. Innfact most was unfinished. And by early 2014 they rebooted everything. And essentially spend like 7ish months making vanilla d1
Thanks for the history lesson. It was interesting. I do not offer Bungie any sympathy until I see tangible improvements. I did not buy Lightfall nor the current season. I am taking a break from D2. This remains the only video-game I play (since D1 launch) but I am taking a break. I am very aggravated with the lame excuses and dismissals of player-base feedback by Bungie. I feel disrespected and frustrated.
Note: I'd like to see a experienced developer making a comparison between this Tiger Engine and Unreal Engine 5. Bungie will not switch but I am curious. The games on Unreal Engine 5 look amazing.
You gotta remember Bungie acts like they're STARVING.. they NEED people to log in every week and they will do literally anything to achieve that even if it results in an absolute trash experience. Destiny players (myself included) feel like we can't miss anything.. FOMO is so bad for us that we will log in for this waste of 10 minutes just so we don't miss something even though we know we wouldn't. Bungie exploits the crap out of this to get their numbers up. Just my wordy 2 cents lol
I'm an indie game dev with some experience in Triple A. I can tell you that they won't abandon the engine, just like Epic Games never abandoned Unreal Engine 1 which is now UE 5. When people don't have game development experience, they have no idea as to how complex a game engine is... that is why I dislike to see people asking a gaming company to "just change the game engine". Game Engines are literally are able to simulate real life, meaning physics. What do you think goes into programming all of it? You don't just need programmers, but real mathematicians and physicists, people who actually know how real life works. Game Engines are MASSIVE, absolute massive and even after YEARS of working on one, it WILL still suck, nowhere near good enough to make a Triple A game.
FINALLY SOME BACKGROUND INFO
however overall, the lack of clarity, and the repeat of the same exact bugs and issues, in addition to the micro transactions, the aquisition, leaves no room for excuse at all.
all of this drama and issue from the community could be eased or resolved if they were honest. but they have lied, hurt, and cheated us so many times.
no longer can they stand on their old morals of "MAKING GREAT STUFF" , old bungie no longer exists, and thats the truth. hard to believe for some, but majority of the community would agree.
as a shadow vet, who has influenced this community more times then i can count. created the idea of the rule of 8 and 6 for stat splitting. i can say without a doubt, that enouph is enouph. ive retired. but like me and many old school vets in the 100s of thousands that have left. we still look for a ray of hope. but that hope be very dim. all thanks to last 4-5 years of d2
I think it's past time we all grow up and get over the whole "sunsetting content WE PAID for thing". We don't pay for content we are gonna keep forever. Especially vidya gaem assets from an online game we play off online servers. The moment those servers are shut down forever, we are gonna lose access to those digital assets we bent out of shape for as stuff we paid for.
No, we pay to ACCESS the servers that host the SOFTWARE IP that we use for entertainment. We essentially pay more rhan $100 per year for a software license. Just like we pay for our Office or Adobe or whatnot. We don't OWN anything. We never HAVE!
Great work as usual, lots to learn for me since I'm working in the software industry as well but is there a way to get the GDC talk mentioned here?
Activision never owned Bungie. Why does everyone keep saying that? They were an independent entity from after they split from Microsoft to before they were acquired by Sony. What they had was a publishing contract with Activision and Activision owning the Destiny IP. That's why the split was so expensive. They had to buy out both the contract AND buy the Destiny IP from Activision.
Cabbage
The reason Bungie wont switch to a new engine for D2 is because it would take YEARS to remake the entire game in another engine. You cant just copy and paste a game into a new engine like it's a Word document going to Google Docs, that's not how games work. They would have to rebuild their entire codebase from scratch, and if it's in another language than what Tiger uses it would take even longer to translate AND THEN rebuild it, if that language would support what D2 has to begin with. They might also have to rework lighting using the new engine's lighting tools, remake textures and assets to fit the new engine's graphics system, re-animate animations on character models, remake the AI, remake maps, set up a new paid store system, reconnect the servers, yadda yadda you get the point. They aren't sticking with Tiger just because it's "their baby," it's because it's what they had when they built the game and trying to rebuild it all is a gargantuan task that would probably take another decade to do, all while adding new live content that entire time that would then also have to be converted. Plus their institutional knowledge is in Tiger and Blam, and has been for over 20 years. Switching all that over to something new would take a TON of retraining and changing their entire development pipeline to fit the new system.
Remember that custom code they discovered in the IKELOS SMG that changed it's recoil pattern? Imagine how many other thousands or millions of little custom changes are hidden in the code that make Destiny, Destiny. Imagine what would happen if some of those were lost in the move to a new engine, and suddenly Destiny didn't FEEL like Destiny anymore. Tiger was built specifically FOR Destiny, and it's a big part of what makes it the game we know and love. Changing that would cause so many ripple effects that would just lead to it feeling like a totally different game.
The reason some Bungie devs may have used Unity or Unreal while working there is more likely because Unity and Unreal are built specifically to be easy and fast to use, as they are available to the general public. That's why you see so many indie games using them. You can make up a quick prototype insanely fast in Unity or especially in Unreal using code blueprints and pre-made assets that a custom engine like Tiger probably wouldn't have. Unity and Unreal are also the two most common engines in the gamedev industry (and Source as well), so it makes sense to require knowledge of it, especially if Tiger uses the same code language as Unreal (C++_. Obviously they can't require experience in Tiger because you can only use it at Bungie, so they require the closest available option, Unreal.
You raise some interesting points towards the end of the video - it would be great for the game if it was only breaking now because they're focusing on fixing it for the future, and hearing that from Bungie themselves would likely win them back some faith from the community (though still not enough to get back in the good books).
Which is exactly why I DON'T think that's what's going on behind the scenes. At any point, they (Bungie) could have said "hey, we're focusing on updating the engine across the board, so things might get rough for a while", and earned a lot of leeway from the players. That holds especially true now, when player sentiment is so overwhelmingly negative. So why not say it if that's the reason?
To me, only two options make sense:
A) There are no grand, widespread improvements being made or
B) The PR Team/Management think it's smarter to surprise us with it when the updates are ready
Given that, as I mentioned, player sentiment is the lowest it's been since CoO, the game might die (which is only a slight exaggeration at this point) before those updates are done, so the management/PR team would have to have a room-temperature IQ to think option B is viable
Feel free to reply with any questions/discussion you feel appropriate, as I still genuinely want this game to see its potential realised. I'm just realising how unlikely that is.
(For reference, I've been around since early D1, have several thousand hours in the franchise, and stuck with it through every lull and dip. I even played consistently through the various content droughts and got on nearly every day in CoO. Now, I haven't played more than 3 hours in the several weeks since the seasonal story ended.)
Bungie tends to lie, in 2019 they said the exo stranger's storyline was finished and would never return, then beyond light released. They also said the G-horn would never make a return, then oh look 30th anniversary bundle. In 2020 they said they will never make a DLC as big as forsaken, then witch queen dropped. There have already been leaks of road maps and pipelines mentioning a new engine, developers have also stated there are a lot of background bugs from the fact that the engine is made for a looter shooter and requires "hotwiring code" for it to work in the MMORPG style it runs now.
Modder/dataminer here. This is not realistic at all. Game engines can't just be swapped out like tennis shoes. That means retraining on new workflows entirely (can take months or years), porting content would be essentially remaking it from scratch, engineers have to build it and maintain it going forward (huge investment). I am also a video editor so I can perhaps explain another way.
Imagine swapping editing software. Or even building your own. If you swap it, you are having to pay a lot of money while still having no control over the software because another company is managing it. If they want to remove the ability to export, too bad for you. If they make a change to rendering that doubles the time to render, oh well. If you make it yourself, you have total control but this is absurdly expensive. No matter what you have to relearn it. Maybe the new software also isn't compatible with your preferred video file type. It has less capabilities than the current because it doesn't have as much built into it from it's tenure. Now imagine it being 100x more complicated and magnitudes larger than video editing. That's game dev and engines.
One of the most prolific mod discord servers I'm in forbids engine discussion because 99% of the time the people who whine about game engines are completely ignorant about them. They aren't going to a new engine because "it's their baby". They aren't doing it because there's now way to certify it'll be worth the investment (see Halo Infinite's "new engine"). "Just do big upgrades then!" Well that's what Beyond Light was. Hence the content cut. Beyond Light was what everyone asked for. Destiny 2 launch was what everyone asked for. Both were crap. Both meant losing so much and for not enough in return. They are doing continual upgrades and maintenance. That's actually what is happening with the recent error codes, is unseen bugs that slipped through in development.
Lightfall was the shot from the 6th floor for me. I no longer care what the problems are. I still love watching your youtube vids and catching a stream every once in a while. Thanks for being you and keep it up!
TLDW the engine needs to go, but it's the least of their problems. What's going on at Bungie is a systemic cancer of lies, greed, and GoT level betrayal of the community. Looking forward to watching Cayde's 2 minute cutscene on UA-cam but that'll probably get cut for overdelivery.
I don't care what changes they make to Tiger, I just miss the lighting system of D1, everything looked softer and more firm. The textures actually looked like they have depth in D1, whereas D2 looks plasticky, oversaturated, and if you look closely, visually shallow at times. I will stick with the game, only if Final Shape can deliver.