The brushes/contacts are not for static discharge. The high frequency from the inverter induces some currents in the rotor shaft. This induced current would flow through the bearings and cause erosion and damage. The brushes form a current path instead of through the bearings. This issue is also a problem on AC industrial motors running with a VFD (an inverter drive). Rotor grounding similar to that was shown here is recommended to prevent damage on these motors as well.
Regarding friction stir processing it doesn't actually melt the material. The rotation of the spindle only heats the metal to a plastic state kind of like mixing taffy. The resulting "weld" area has properties more like a forged part instead of a cast part - significantly stronger and less brittle.
I’ve just done 14,000 miles in a KIA EV6 GT. The experience has been flawless and you can see why from this. It’s comfortable, spacious yet compact on the outside, well made, actually fun to drive and shockingly fast. My buddy has a Ferrari 812 Superfast. The KIA is faster 🤪 ( doesn’t sound as good mind) Comes with a 7 year warranty but I doubt I’ll need to use it. I got one of the very first cars delivered and so was expecting a few niggles. Nothing, zilch has gone wrong.👏
@@LIFEOFSTUFFEDANIMALSYes, I’m on 17,500 miles and not a single issue (apart from a cracked windscreen from out terrible roads - all fixed now) I totted up my charging over the first year. Most of my charging was at home, with a small amount of fast DC charging for long trips (300-400 miles round trip) The total cost of all the charging even with the public charging has been equivalent to 5p per mile. By comparison my Porsche cost 33p per mile and even a 50mpg car would be around 17p per mile. So it’s saving a lot of money. I also added up the time spent public charging and it came to 110 minutes in the whole year, which if a petrol stop takes 4 minutes is actually quicker than the time I would have spent filling the petrol car, and way more convenient now I no longer have to stop twice a week on the way home from work! A couple of 10-20 minute stops on the few long journeys I do is a small price to pay for never having to stop during my normal commute. So, yes I’m very happy I made the switch. Definitely not going back to ICE
@@BAC_Mono that is awesome! We have done a flawless 55,000km on our Ioniq5 which we picked up June 29 2023. AWD Ultimate trim, an amazingly good vehicle without a single hiccup! Nothing. Just operates the way it should, is fast, comfy and handles well! So far our longest road trip was 14,650km in 43 days last fall. Great trip and no issues. To say we love the car would be an understatement! Glad you are enjoying your EV6 - they are a beautiful vehicle! Cheers Mike & Ally 🇨🇦
Hyundai Motor Group appears to be more vertically-integrated than any other automaker, even moreso that Tesla. Bit differently so. Hyundai has their own container shipping company, for example. Heck, they even make their own steel.
Great presentation, guys! You took complex equipment and made it incredibly understandable! Sandy, give 'em a raise & put them in other Munro Live videos! And don't let them get away... they're keepers! SoCalFreddy
If the parking pawl is only in the front drive unit (as it appears to be), and the parking brakes are only at the rear wheels (which is the normal practice), then adding the parking pawl in AWD vehicles gives them four-wheel parking brakes; the pawl isn't just redundant, it adds capability.
In addition to saving the manufacturer $500 they also save the consumer a lot of time charging the vehicle, and it helps them reach their claim of 18min charge from 10% to 80% SOC.
That would be SKI and their new battery chemistry which features ultra low resistance, not the silly part about them saving a few bucks with a front disconnect.
The parking pawl is very important to avoid stuck brake pads/discs. This issue is very severe with the Ioniq5 and EV6. Even when it only rained they are stuck and with brute force they break loose with a big bang, very annoying! So I love the fact that this is still in place!
As an owner of Ioniq 5 AND Ioniq 6 I can say that issue improved on the Ioniq 6; seems to be a 'better' disc material. I have 10000 km on the Ioniq 6 now and the discs look still new and shiny. However, since Hyundai has both, an electric parking brake AND the pawl I really like to have the choice. The electric parking brake get's activated automatically when you turn off the vehicle but in case of wet discs I usually release it again manually if I'm parking on a flat surface. I can do this because the pawl is still there.
Pretty sure Mazda switched to using the service brakes (brake rotors & pads) for parking since 2014. Sure, automatic transmissions still have the internal parking pawl, but manuals don't and it works just fine. There is a servo motor behind each brake that actuates the caliper. I just assumed every car with electronic parking brakes operated this way since cheap Mazdas do it. I live in western Canada with a fair amount of rain, snow, and ice and haven't had any issues with sticking pads or other problems releasing the parking brake so it sounds more like you experienced a poor implementation.
@@khrilliando you solely engine brake this Mazda of yours? The sticking issue is related to low brake usage on EVs. Some manufacturers have the system use the pads even if Regen only would work just to scrub them a little.
That idea was already integrated in some powerfull DIY E-bike aftermarket motor controller 10 years ago but never on an electric car until now. It is brilliant.
Super excited to see companies taking the time / $$$ to improve the efficiency of the drivetrain. If Hyundai had gone with the larger battery pack instead of the decoupler, the user would have spend the time and money to charge that additional battery pack size.
For everyday driving, this is the way to go. But for towing or heavy loads or lots of uphill, your range will be reduced more than if they had added the extra capacity.
@@abraxastulammo9940 Not true with home charging, which is the way most EV owners including myself do their charging. Fast charging speed is irrelevant in my car.
@@abraxastulammo9940 most likely the extra battery capacity would be added in parallel, thus increasing the Ah capacity and not the voltage. I believe this to be the case because increasing the voltage would require more insulation on the HV wiring, increasing the weight and reducing ductility. The EV6 cabling is rated for 350A which is what my car draws at a sufficiently fast charger, so increasing the pack size would almost definitely increase charging times.
Hyundai is a huge industrial conglomerate that has everything from shipbuilding to semiconductor divisions. Building an entire EV themselves is no great surprise.
Hyundai Motor Group has a 60-year history in train manufacturing. Their experience in building electric-driven locomotives, including high-speed trains, has likely contributed to their advancements in electric vehicle technology.
HD Hyundai, the shipbuilding giant is a separate company from Hyundai Motor Group. Hyundai Motor Group (or HMG) has automotive, construction, robotics, trains, steel, logistics, industrial machines, finance, and military equipment businesses. HD Hyundai has shipbuilding, offshore engineering, construction machines, electrical equipment, ship engines, robotics, oil refining, and petrochemical businesses. The owner-CEOs of those groups are cousins to each other. There are other Hyundais like Hyundai Group, Hyundai Department Stores Group, Hyundai Marine and Fire Insurance Group, Hyundai Corp. Group, HL Group, Hyundai Development Company, KCC and etc.... These are the companies owned by the family and relatives of the owner-CEO of HMG.
Some ceramic balls do have a vapor deposited metallic coating to enhance lubrication properties... if so in this case, that could be a reason to use shaft brushes.
I'm glad we've finally had some discussion about motor shaft grounding, a function which should be present in every EV motor. It would be helpful to lay out all the shafts and bearings in their relative locations on the table so we have some context as to the overall mechanical architecture, especially how current paths are controlled and geometric constraint is managed. I was also wondering how the grounding brush was kept dry? I didn't see a seal. Where was the ceramic ball-bearing? Tail or output end, or both? Thanks for the videos, you guys make a great team!
Yes, need more details to ensure that both the capacitive AND the inductive effects that produce shaft high-frequency voltages and therefore currents that need to be shunted to ground are actually dealt with by shaft brushes and ceramic bearings. How to verify that they are working throughout motor life?
@@Stefan_Dahn Hyundai/KIA are an actual business living off making and selling stuff rather than sitting on a trillion bucks and trickle feeding car models made at the lowest possible cost. The Koreans are making new models available. Tesla hasn't for over 3 years, stuck at 4 models on 2 platforms. Just a different business, not automatically bad. BEVs themselves are quite silly with the huge batteries. MGU's are quite neat, do bad ones even still exist?
I just ran across an article claiming Rivian four-motor owners were experiencing tires wearing out in as little as 6K miles. The problem seems to be centered around using the decoupler AND reducing the ride height in conserve mode. The R1T is a lot of weight to drag around with just two drive,wheels, which increases wear. To add insult to injury, the ride height adjustment appears may change the toe angle, further accelerating tire wear. Rivian’s response for now is to be sure to rotate the tire positions frequently. I don’t know if the Kia has active suspension which may or may not affect tire geometry, but it is a fairly heavy car and the increased load on the tires in two wheel mode is still a thing. Tires are expensive these days, but that expense ball in in the purchaser’s court and not Kia’s.
@@sprockkets I found that out on my Chevy Bolt. I got about 28K out of the front tires to get to the wear indicators. The back tires look brand new. I intentionally did the experiment to see how much difference not rotating the tires makes. It makes sense with the heavy load that regen braking puts on the tires.
Really neat to see all the reasons (like cooling methods) cheap DIY conversions will never reach the performance/efficiency specs of a reasonably priced fully engineered volume produced vehicle. Hopefully DIY conversions will nonetheless continue getting better/cheaper over time and give a nice hobbyist alternate universe to paying for subscription seat warmers and other such dystopian things. Even if the smaller alternative universe always lags the volume dystopia.
26:29 No. The purpose of ceramic coatings (on balls or rings) is to avoid current running from the inner ring over the balls to the outer ring. On classical bearings there would occur "micro sparcs", damaging the inner and outer ring. Basic mechanical/electrical engineering.
Same happens when doing a welding repair on a machine , if not careful current can arch across the small contact point of the balls hence eroding them putting a tiny flat spot on the balls. So best to put the return lead of the welder as close as possible to the electrode rather than far away where current might pass thru a bearing
The original Tesla Model S used a brush to “ground” the rotor to the stator and prevent arcing. Early models did NOT have that and bearings were getting chewed up.
I see quite a bit of hand-waving when I go to the literature looking for causes of bearing arcing. One of the more plausible comes from Aegis Bearing. Aegis claims that imbalance in the phases of variable frequency drive cause a common mode current offset which capacitively coupled to the motor’s rotor. Their suggested remedy is a dissipation brush snd insulated bearing, which is what we see Kia doing. That begs the question: can the inverter be improved electronically to improve balance and eliminate common mode current from being capacitively coupled into the rotor? The brush and ceramic bearing feel like post hoc Band-aid fix to the real problem. In particular, the dissipation brush is subject to wearing out or becoming noisy. So, is a better inverter a more cost effective remedy than the brush and bearing? Also a conductive lubricant additive such as Stadis 450 might be useful depending on where the problematic bearing is located.
@@wtmayhew additionally the circular brush type is said to be less effective and reliable than a spring-loaded carbon or sintered brush against a dedicated journal, at least according to a manufacturer of the latter type, could be Aegis. Earlier Hyundai/Kia (Kona/original Niro) with 'dry' motors use a softer-looking circular brush at the output end of the motor while I gathered this one was at the tail end, probably because the other end is oil-wetted. Clearly in all cases oil or grease contamination is a risk anyway. Curiously the Nissan Leaf uses 2 carbon brushes at the GRU intermediate shaft. I was wondering the same about mathematically eliminating phase imbalance and I had assumed Tesla was doing this since I've never seen a brush on any teardowns and John Kelly said he hadn't seen one either. All this is not a topic widely discussed, yet it should be.
Great info guys. It does make you wonder why the Korean automakers can be this innovative in their EV engineering, but the Japanese automakers are not!
Well, apart from Tesla there isn't really a high enough demand for these cars. The general view of people is that these cars blow up and will run out of battery. No one wants one (unless you are into tech, know a lot about ev companies, or follow an ev company). Companies like Toyota and Honda are actually praised for not making EVs because EVs are seen as scams made to push climate change initiatives.
@@brunoheggli2888 Duh, the Koreans are so far ahead of everyone else outside of Tesla, it's almost incredible. The Japanese just start to grasp how difficult it is to make a competitive EV. In other words, they are now about where the Koreans were in 2014. And it gets harder to catch up every day, as the EV evolution speeds up every day.
@@bagheera32 They are not on the market yet,and for good reasons!It makes not much sense to build full evs with the present shitty batterietech!Better just selling hybrids and pluginhybrids until the future way more efficent tech is ready!
Parking pawls are they way to go for vehicles parked up for extended periods in inclement weathers. Caliper pads should never be left touching brake disks for extended periods or they will rust on to the disk, damaging both. The manual ICE equivalent would be to leave it parked in gear.
That drivetrain can already do 300 miles. I have done it many times myself in my Ioniq 5. The way the EPA does their test, it seems to be very understated for the Ioniq 5.
@@Stefan_Dahn not always, because what mode they do the test in and what regen setting they have it on matters and it’s not always apples to apples as which mode is more efficient in which car. I’ve almost always had a range much greater than the stated EPA range except in the winter. Most of the time around 300 miles or more.
@@BeepasGarageI’ve had the same experience. Efficiency averaging 4.0 miles/kWh or 300 miles of range. We do have SE AWD with the 19 inch wheels and 235 width tires.
Scott has a good understanding of Electronics! Who Hoo! Very impressive and information packed video. While Scott does a great job of explaining acronyms as he goes (correctly I might add) if there were a few less "monuments" along the way would be great. Perhaps a Thesaurus 😁. Great job both to Scott and Walker. Nice design work from Hyundai/Kia. I'm guessing the front drive is also for a future smaller car.
Agreed. I found the use of “monument” to describe the attributes of the inverter board a little unusual, but not a deal breaker. It was a well thought out presentation.
Both RWD and AWD Teslas have free rolling front wheels when parked, making it easier for them to lose traction when parked on snowy inclines. This surprises many owners, as they're used to AWD gas cars where the parking pawl effectively locks both front and rear wheels. So, while I agree there is no need for parking pawls in EVs, I do think they should include electronic parking brakes on all 4 wheels. It wasn't clear in this video whether Hyundai includes a parking pawl on the front, rear, or both. Given the parking brakes on the rear, I would argue it would make more sense to include the pawl only on the front drivetrain.
Unfortunately it's a rare case so it's not much of a concern to lock the front. Even on AWD cars the front diff is attached to a coupling diff that renders the parking pawl useless in locking the front wheels.
@@jeremyventurino9481 center diff should prevent the fronts from rolling together in the same direction as long as the rears are held by the parking brake. But if the center diff has a way to disconnect the front axle to improve fuel economy, I guess that could allow the fronts to roll freely. Is that what you’re saying? My knowledge of modern AWD systems is limited, so I’m probably behind the times on this stuff.
Please allow me to explain the answer to "Why 800V?": 16:00 Electrical circuits have portions that supply electrical power(typ. battery) and portions that consume power (typ the coils of the motor). Yet other parts carry and/or regulate this power. Recollect that, in the electrical domain, power is the product of a potential "U" (sic. "voltage") [V] and current "I" [A]. This is analogous to the mechanical (rotation) domain, whereby power is the product of the torque [N.m] and angular velocity [rad/s]. Imagine you now have a drive-shaft- would you choose a high torque, with low speed, or high speed with low torque? Remember, a high speed will lead to higher frictional losses in your bearings. A high torque will require a stronger shaft. The electrical dilemma is similar. the higher the potential ('voltage') the lower the current that is needed (for the same power), hence lower electrical losses in the various electrical parts (oversimplifying a bit) - the power-losses again correspond to the potential across 'the other components' times the current - which numerically works out to the same as their resistance times the square of the current - hence the name I-square-R losses. So what determines how high one may push the voltage? It is mostly limited by the available MOSFETs or IGBTs the auto-manufacturer can procure at non-exotic prices, and also the various insulation and safety considerations. Also, sticking to the local standards makes life easy - e.g. 230V in the EU. Multiples of the cell-pack potential is nice too. Oh, btw - conductors are generally massier than insulators - for the same power (and power-loss), you generally also get a _lighter_ machine if the potentials are higher and the currents are correspondingly lower - my educated guess is that the tradeoff's around ~ 1000V/1A to (a ratio corresponding to approx. ~ 1 kOhm). In other words, for a practical 1 kW system, the insulator-mass would dominate if the potential were above 1kV (w/ low current), and the conductor mass would be dominant of the current were above 1A (with a lower potential). Practically, potentials below 50V are generally safe-ish and those above 500V are generally deadly. -->this issue can be circumvented by adding layers to prevent exposing these. All these considerations drive the engineering tradeoff for an optimal electrical subsystem - the current state-of-the-art (2023) puts it squarely at 800V.
@@andrewashmore8000 IMO, we'll skip the 1kV altogether, and likely directly go to 1.2kV or possibly even higher - the incremental benefit to go from 800V installed-base to a 1kV system may not justify the added cost of novelty.
@@AdityaMehendale interesting , thanks for sharing info. I think they aced the Ioniq 5 , so many cool design features. Looks really well built too. But in fairness to Lucid , they topped them all especially in the motor packaging.
The main advantage to 800V is 350kw DC charging. You also get lower weight, like you said, but this is generally offset with more battery and more car.
Probably top out at 1kV for the present (see Lucid Sapphire) mostly because thats the upper limit of deployed charging standards and what’s required for gov funding.
Good job guys, thanks. But tell Sandy to make an explanation why Cory left. I guess that thousands of people who have liked him along the way deserve it.
Hard redundancy should never be underestimated. Regarding parking pawls. Here's a perfect airline example where neglecting redundancy/maintenance leads to bad outcomes. Alaska Airlines Flight 261 a Fatal aviation accident that occured on January 31, 2000 over the Pacific Ocean Alaska Airlines flight of a McDonnell Douglas MD-83. Recommend looking at the accident investigation report. McDonnell Douglas cheaped out on redundancy.
This E-GMP platform looks well engineered and very capable. I can't help but ask, however, if you have any insights to the IMA platform that will replace it…? Will these motors remain the same, but Hyundai will simply install different, longer batteries in the same pack…?
@@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος There are reasons not to like using the decoupler, namely possible increased tire wear on the primary drive wheels. Rivian R1T owners have reported having tires worn out in as few as 6K miles. In Rivian’s case the problem is apparently amplified by conserve mode also using the active suspension to reduce ride night which coincidentally changes toe angle.
12:43 The 4th lead to use the inverter as a buck or boost converter is also an idea that I have seen 10 years ago on powerfull ebike aftermarket motor controller. Where one of the 3 phases output was used as power stage to PWM an external coil in order to boost voltage from any external DC voltage source between 10V to Vbatt so it was possible to recharge a 90V battery using a simple 12, 24, 36 or 48V cheap power supply. The company was ADAPTTO, a russian company that I have represented at the 2015 at the las vegas INTERBIKE event. The idea was fantastic because as you said it use an already included power stage to PWM and buck or boost the voltage so it is an efficient way to use at maximum all integrated components! ua-cam.com/video/m49j_piYG-Y/v-deo.html
14:00 Very similar to Renault Chameleon charger. When Zoe was launched, there were only Type 2 plugs as standard for AC and DC charge, no CCS. For AC charging, Zoe with Q motor could do up to 43kW 63A 400V AC. Renault has 3 phase rectifier on the car input. After rectification, it sends rectified main though motor coils, which are used as power inductor. In single phase mode (230V), it does boost conversion. In 3 phase mode (400V), it is a buck converter. Even the single phase mode is done on the cheap, as it connects N to L3 input via 35A relay. Also, issue is that the batrery has no galvanic isolation from mains. It could also do (in theory) what NACS does, having both DC and AC over same pins (Tesla did this with model S for EU market) - L1 and L2 become DC (-), while L3 and N combine to become DC (+). DC goes straight though rectifier, and straight though the motor.
I have a 2022 IONIQ 5 that had an oil leak from the plate cooler on the front motor. I think it was the small plate cooler on your table. The part took about 2 months to receive and cost around $800 Canadian. Should I expect a reduced life expectancy on the front motor due to lower lubrication pressure? Should I take this issue up with Hyundai and ask for additional warranty coverage on the motor?
Good points, I thank the plate cooler would be in advance of all three coolants that utilize it. The leak was marginal since it was on the high pressure side and it never made it to a squirting stage, just a lot of oil all over the cooler. The dealership put black light dye in the oil so it could be confirmed as tight at my next appointment.
Actually, adding the coupler most likely saved weight vs. adding 4.8kwh worth of battery. About the parking pawl - I just bought an Ionic 5 and I can hear the EPB actuating each time I put the vehicle into Park, so I think the pawl is redundant. Yes, I agree that they could probably just rely on the EPB, but I suspect that they decided to keep the pawl for now while they evaluate how robust their EPB system is. I wouldn't be surprised if they eliminate it on future generations. Preventing roll-aways is a huge safety issue, so I can understand being a bit conservative with this.
I think the redundant parking pawl is a necessary redundancy. EPBs are not necessarily bullet proof. There are a couple of failure points in those systems
Hi guys, very informative video! You could probably mention about how long do you think these cars can last, or what should the owners pay attention to make these cars last longer. Lots of people are buying these kind of cars to do taxi, I am one of them, therefore we do lots of miles with them. I know Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro Ev have developed some issues with their reduction gearbox, and they need to have them replaced, but if you are out of warranty you have to do it privately and I heard of $6000 job. Do you think Ioniq and Ev6 will have the same issue? I was thinking between and Ioniq/ EV6 and Tesla Model 3 long range as they are about the same price. I am not interested to have the fastest, I am more interested in a car that can last me 200,000 miles. Which of the 3 cars do you think is the best option? Thanks in advance
A couple of questions/comments regarding oil cooling. Glycol/water has a much greater capacity to absorb heat, but it adds complexity and maintenance problems such as corrosion and the need for a system of pumps, heat exchangers and connectors. Does the oil need to be optimized for lubrication or heat absorption? I am assuming that the oil will be kept at somewhere near 100C+/- Suzuki high performance motorcycles used a system of air/oil cooling (Suzuki Advanced Cooling System) where the cylinders and head had fine pitch fins and a heat exchanger, but was able to avoid using all the extra water plumbing stuff. Beyond a certain point though, engines produce so much heat that air/oil is inadequate.
Oil has enough heat carrying capacity to cool a high-efficiency electric motor. The most advanced gasoline engines are well below 50% efficient, whereas the motors used in EVs can easily surpass 90%. What Suzuki does sounds like what Pratt & Whitney used 70+ years ago to cool its radial piston engines. The cooling fins were actually machined with slitting saws to increase their pitch.
You're not wrong. Coolant based systems perform better in extreme environments. But coolant/water systems add complexity and cost and only really benefit in extreme use cases. Likely these motors in the Hyundai will run hot under track conditions, and throttle back their power. Oil can still be used effectively and is likely the more reliable choice, even if it impacts the time the motors can have sustained high loads.
"High points"? Looks like a permanent magnet reluctance motor on the rear drive, but they never talked about it. 🙏🙏Please talk about the actual motor as well. Love the walkthrough video and I love the Munro group giving us all the answers that are so hard to find otherwise.
Why would you use a boost converter to get to 800 volts from 400 in stead of just splitting the battery pack in two 400 volt packs and have a contactor that switches between wiring the two halves in series or parallell to achieve 800 or 400 volt?
Given that South Korea is supposed to be a free trade partner with the US, it is not right that these cars do not qualify for tax credits, except when leased.
It is the fact that the cables can be lighter guage ( when using high voltage ) and hence cheaper. You kept on saying voltage, but it is LOWER CURRENT when using high voltage. You missed this point completely. It is exactly the same reason they use 220KV transmission lines to keep the current down when moving huge amounts of power.
So using the inverter in the motor to boosts the voltage to 800 volts to charge the pack from a 400volt charger. Makes sense on Kyle’s videos (out of spec reviews) charging the lucid the car jerks forward. Lucid must have something going on in the inverter assuming that the inverter is boosting the voltage to charge the 800 volt pack.
Can you please link to this video of the Lucid jerking forward? Afaik, on the lucid the pre-conditioning function uses the motor windings, but not the charging.
@@stefansmolenaers I’ve seen him reference it multiple times over a couple videos , this is the most recent time I’ve heard him say something about it. At 53 minutes in . ua-cam.com/video/2IzUgbmwcIg/v-deo.html
How much did going with IGBTs save for the front inverter and was it also from Infineon. Some OEMs like to diversify their semiconductor suppliers for risk mitigation and arguably pricing negotiation.
Assuming the 800v battery voltage is because of multiple cells in series could smaller groups of cells be charged in parallel at 400v? No conversion needed just some extra conductors
On the decoupler information, the range on the RWD Ioniq 5, which does not have a decoupler, is 303 miles so no benefit there. The AWD version is 266 miles, so it gets them above the 250 mile threshold. Now on the Ioniq 6 SE AWD, it gets Hyundai well above the real 300 mile limit.
Do you guys know to which extent these designs and preductions parts may be the work of Rimac? From easy on in their BEV journey, Rimac has been said to be involved?
It would be sweet is Sandy could go to Croatia to talk to the guys at Rimac. Obviously they would never let him tear one of their cars apart but they might be fine with doing an engineering breakdown of parts that are not installed yet.
Interesting reveal on the power electronics in that the rear inverter uses MOSFETs and the front unit employs IGBTs. If I am recalling my history properly, early EVs used MOSFETs (the EV1 used MOSFETs), but the industry switched to IGBTs due to their higher current carrying capacity. However, Tesla went back to MOSFETs after finding a way to engineer in Silicon Carbide (SiC), which cost less but could carry the current load. It seems the industry transitioned to SiC MOSFETs. I think Munro has called out SiC MOSFETs being employed in the Rivian inverter. Therefore it is interesting to see Hyundai going with IGBTs in the front inverter (which assumedly uses less power??). Would love to hear why they made that move.
@@paulaxford6754 Isn't the fourth connection (the WYE point) for using the motor coils as part of the Electrical filter design to reduce harmonics instead of a separate inductor?
Re AWD decoupling savings, can the drag of the engaged but unenergized front motor not be negated by reducing the energy supplied to the rear motor and simultaneously applying that low level of power to the front motor? Also, isn't there a handling hit when passing, either caused by no available AWD or by its abrupt engagement?
The drag is caused by the friction of the motor and gears spinning vs being stopped. So if the motor is spinning, the fricion power is lost to heat. Doesn't matter if spun by torque from electric current or torque from tires on the road. I'm also wondering how smooth it is when the motor is engaged. Has to take some time to accelerate the motor up to speed before engaging. Can any AWD Hyundai owners comment?
WRT the decoupler, how quickly can that respond? What happens if you go from highway cruising to wide open throttle? Does it screw the shift fork back the other way and reconnect the front axle as fast as an automatic transmission would downshift?
You can't tell when it engages or disengages. The only way you can tell, is on one of the dashboard displays. When you gun it, the front wheels instantly react.
Parking lock vs e-brake, the parking lock on the transmission will always be far superior to the e-brake. Brakes fail with age specialty in cold damp and winter climate. If you were old enough to remember manual transmissions, they don’t have the parking lock that’s why you leave them engaged in first gear with the parking brake engaged. Safety first before costs
It is my understanding that ipedal can be used only if both motors are engaged to maximize regen. So which is more efficient? Using the single motor in economy mode to reduce drag associated with the front motor or keeping both motors engaged to maximize regenerative braking? Thanks
For the HI5/6, it is generally more efficient to drive with the front motor disengaged (non-iPedal modes) and accelerating as softly as possible. Think of iPedal as a performance mode, and not a best-efficiency mode. The efficiency of all the HI5 drive modes are significantly affected by how Hyundai has chosen to implement them in software. For example, you don't necessarily need to have both motors engaged 100% of the time to allow for 1-pedal driving (no use of brake pedal).
@21:00 I forsee service issues one day when the thermal paste has dried out and these components needs to be repasted much like you see now in CPUs and their heat sinks. Is there a automotive thermal paste that lasts longer?
Since one of the motors already has a mechanical disconnect on it, the parking pall could be eliminated by simply giving the ring a locked 3rd position.
Just so you all know, that back motor is also used in the front for the gv60 480hp versions and the ev6gt.
The brushes/contacts are not for static discharge. The high frequency from the inverter induces some currents in the rotor shaft. This induced current would flow through the bearings and cause erosion and damage. The brushes form a current path instead of through the bearings. This issue is also a problem on AC industrial motors running with a VFD (an inverter drive). Rotor grounding similar to that was shown here is recommended to prevent damage on these motors as well.
Regarding friction stir processing it doesn't actually melt the material. The rotation of the spindle only heats the metal to a plastic state kind of like mixing taffy. The resulting "weld" area has properties more like a forged part instead of a cast part - significantly stronger and less brittle.
Great info, thanks.
Technically he said "it kind of melds it together", so he didn't say anything about melting.
@10001000101 thanks - my hearing is a little damaged...
I’ve just done 14,000 miles in a KIA EV6 GT.
The experience has been flawless and you can see why from this.
It’s comfortable, spacious yet compact on the outside, well made, actually fun to drive and shockingly fast. My buddy has a Ferrari 812 Superfast. The KIA is faster 🤪 ( doesn’t sound as good mind)
Comes with a 7 year warranty but I doubt I’ll need to use it. I got one of the very first cars delivered and so was expecting a few niggles. Nothing, zilch has gone wrong.👏
Still good?
@@LIFEOFSTUFFEDANIMALSYes, I’m on 17,500 miles and not a single issue (apart from a cracked windscreen from out terrible roads - all fixed now)
I totted up my charging over the first year. Most of my charging was at home, with a small amount of fast DC charging for long trips (300-400 miles round trip)
The total cost of all the charging even with the public charging has been equivalent to 5p per mile. By comparison my Porsche cost 33p per mile and even a 50mpg car would be around 17p per mile. So it’s saving a lot of money.
I also added up the time spent public charging and it came to 110 minutes in the whole year, which if a petrol stop takes 4 minutes is actually quicker than the time I would have spent filling the petrol car, and way more convenient now I no longer have to stop twice a week on the way home from work!
A couple of 10-20 minute stops on the few long journeys I do is a small price to pay for never having to stop during my normal commute.
So, yes I’m very happy I made the switch. Definitely not going back to ICE
@@BAC_Mono that is awesome! We have done a flawless 55,000km on our Ioniq5 which we picked up June 29 2023. AWD Ultimate trim, an amazingly good vehicle without a single hiccup! Nothing. Just operates the way it should, is fast, comfy and handles well! So far our longest road trip was 14,650km in 43 days last fall. Great trip and no issues.
To say we love the car would be an understatement!
Glad you are enjoying your EV6 - they are a beautiful vehicle!
Cheers
Mike & Ally 🇨🇦
Scott and Walker killing this teardown and walkthrough. Great one guys, thanks!
Thanks
THANKS SCOTT, for introducing WALKER,AND THE REST OF THE MUNRO TEAM 🤗👍💚💚💚
Looks like Hyundai/Kia is ahead of the pack engineering their drive systems. All while holding the cost down.
800V architecture is more expensive
But more efficient
"only make sense for bigger battery packs"
Except that, other engineering parts are brilliant
@@tv-ld3wv 800v also allows for 350kw fast charging
@@pootispiker2866
More efficient means less copper wires , less weight, faster charging
Same 48v architecture advantages
Hyundai Motor Group appears to be more vertically-integrated than any other automaker, even moreso that Tesla. Bit differently so. Hyundai has their own container shipping company, for example. Heck, they even make their own steel.
Great presentation, guys! You took complex equipment and made it incredibly understandable! Sandy, give 'em a raise & put them in other Munro Live videos! And don't let them get away... they're keepers! SoCalFreddy
If the parking pawl is only in the front drive unit (as it appears to be), and the parking brakes are only at the rear wheels (which is the normal practice), then adding the parking pawl in AWD vehicles gives them four-wheel parking brakes; the pawl isn't just redundant, it adds capability.
It allows towing companies to do additional damage to the vehicle. Not that they need an excuse.
Towing is an uncommon thing in europe.
@@hugegamer5988
Great job, guys. Cool to see the next generation people getting featured in Munro videos.
In addition to saving the manufacturer $500 they also save the consumer a lot of time charging the vehicle, and it helps them reach their claim of 18min charge from 10% to 80% SOC.
They? What?
Pronouns require antecedents. C’mon.
That would be SKI and their new battery chemistry which features ultra low resistance, not the silly part about them saving a few bucks with a front disconnect.
Keep bringing scott hoffmann he's an interesting character and good at explaining things I like his style, kudos.
The parking pawl is very important to avoid stuck brake pads/discs. This issue is very severe with the Ioniq5 and EV6. Even when it only rained they are stuck and with brute force they break loose with a big bang, very annoying! So I love the fact that this is still in place!
They chosed a wrong supplier for the breaks then...
As an owner of Ioniq 5 AND Ioniq 6 I can say that issue improved on the Ioniq 6; seems to be a 'better' disc material. I have 10000 km on the Ioniq 6 now and the discs look still new and shiny. However, since Hyundai has both, an electric parking brake AND the pawl I really like to have the choice. The electric parking brake get's activated automatically when you turn off the vehicle but in case of wet discs I usually release it again manually if I'm parking on a flat surface. I can do this because the pawl is still there.
Pretty sure Mazda switched to using the service brakes (brake rotors & pads) for parking since 2014. Sure, automatic transmissions still have the internal parking pawl, but manuals don't and it works just fine. There is a servo motor behind each brake that actuates the caliper. I just assumed every car with electronic parking brakes operated this way since cheap Mazdas do it.
I live in western Canada with a fair amount of rain, snow, and ice and haven't had any issues with sticking pads or other problems releasing the parking brake so it sounds more like you experienced a poor implementation.
@@khrilliando you solely engine brake this Mazda of yours? The sticking issue is related to low brake usage on EVs. Some manufacturers have the system use the pads even if Regen only would work just to scrub them a little.
@@khrillianyou don't need a prawl for a manual because you just leave the transmission in 1st or reverse.
Invertor section was a revelation. 4 phase when charging blew my mind! Great presentation Munro.
That idea was already integrated in some powerfull DIY E-bike aftermarket motor controller 10 years ago but never on an electric car until now. It is brilliant.
It's Not "4 phase", they use the inductance of the motor winding as a boost converter to increase the ~400V to ~800V.
@@Doctorbasss 👍
@@shazam6274 👍
Finally! 🎉Been waiting for this video for over an Year since I got my EV 6❤
Superb Tutorial on these systems Provides an understanding of the hardware, but also the rationales behind engineering choices made. Fantastic!
Super excited to see companies taking the time / $$$ to improve the efficiency of the drivetrain. If Hyundai had gone with the larger battery pack instead of the decoupler, the user would have spend the time and money to charge that additional battery pack size.
There is no additional time, since a bigger pack has a higher charge speed (kW).
For everyday driving, this is the way to go.
But for towing or heavy loads or lots of uphill, your range will be reduced more than if they had added the extra capacity.
@@abraxastulammo9940 Not true with home charging, which is the way most EV owners including myself do their charging. Fast charging speed is irrelevant in my car.
@@abraxastulammo9940 most likely the extra battery capacity would be added in parallel, thus increasing the Ah capacity and not the voltage. I believe this to be the case because increasing the voltage would require more insulation on the HV wiring, increasing the weight and reducing ductility. The EV6 cabling is rated for 350A which is what my car draws at a sufficiently fast charger, so increasing the pack size would almost definitely increase charging times.
It’s always about profits and what’s best for the suits, not what’s best for us consumers.
Hyundai is a huge industrial conglomerate that has everything from shipbuilding to semiconductor divisions.
Building an entire EV themselves is no great surprise.
Hyundai Motor Group has a 60-year history in train manufacturing. Their experience in building electric-driven locomotives, including high-speed trains, has likely contributed to their advancements in electric vehicle technology.
HD Hyundai, the shipbuilding giant is a separate company from Hyundai Motor Group. Hyundai Motor Group (or HMG) has automotive, construction, robotics, trains, steel, logistics, industrial machines, finance, and military equipment businesses. HD Hyundai has shipbuilding, offshore engineering, construction machines, electrical equipment, ship engines, robotics, oil refining, and petrochemical businesses. The owner-CEOs of those groups are cousins to each other. There are other Hyundais like Hyundai Group, Hyundai Department Stores Group, Hyundai Marine and Fire Insurance Group, Hyundai Corp. Group, HL Group, Hyundai Development Company, KCC and etc.... These are the companies owned by the family and relatives of the owner-CEO of HMG.
ceramic ball bearing are not ceramic coated balls. The balls can be solid or hollow (the hollow ones have extremely high rpm limits)...
Some ceramic balls do have a vapor deposited metallic coating to enhance lubrication properties... if so in this case, that could be a reason to use shaft brushes.
I'm glad we've finally had some discussion about motor shaft grounding, a function which should be present in every EV motor. It would be helpful to lay out all the shafts and bearings in their relative locations on the table so we have some context as to the overall mechanical architecture, especially how current paths are controlled and geometric constraint is managed. I was also wondering how the grounding brush was kept dry? I didn't see a seal. Where was the ceramic ball-bearing? Tail or output end, or both? Thanks for the videos, you guys make a great team!
if the end has a brush, then only the front bearing uses ceramic balls i guess.
Yes, need more details to ensure that both the capacitive AND the inductive effects that produce shaft high-frequency voltages and therefore currents that need to be shunted to ground are actually dealt with by shaft brushes and ceramic bearings. How to verify that they are working throughout motor life?
Those extra parts that help reduce consumption seem A LOT more renewable than adding battery cells; in so many ways.
I wonder how accessible, MTBF and total consumer level cost to replace will be . Too bad they didn't address that.
At the end of the day, EGMP cars aren't the most efficient cars
They could have just used an motor without as strong of back emf
Tesla is using a asynchronous machine. This construction is just so stupid. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@Stefan_Dahn Hyundai/KIA are an actual business living off making and selling stuff rather than sitting on a trillion bucks and trickle feeding car models made at the lowest possible cost. The Koreans are making new models available. Tesla hasn't for over 3 years, stuck at 4 models on 2 platforms. Just a different business, not automatically bad. BEVs themselves are quite silly with the huge batteries. MGU's are quite neat, do bad ones even still exist?
They could use the decoupler as a parking brake. Just slide it the opposite way to mesh with fixed set off teeth, and the drive shaft would be locked.
I really enjoy watching Scott. Great personality very intelligent.
I just ran across an article claiming Rivian four-motor owners were experiencing tires wearing out in as little as 6K miles. The problem seems to be centered around using the decoupler AND reducing the ride height in conserve mode. The R1T is a lot of weight to drag around with just two drive,wheels, which increases wear. To add insult to injury, the ride height adjustment appears may change the toe angle, further accelerating tire wear. Rivian’s response for now is to be sure to rotate the tire positions frequently.
I don’t know if the Kia has active suspension which may or may not affect tire geometry, but it is a fairly heavy car and the increased load on the tires in two wheel mode is still a thing. Tires are expensive these days, but that expense ball in in the purchaser’s court and not Kia’s.
Evs love killing tires
@@sprockkets I found that out on my Chevy Bolt. I got about 28K out of the front tires to get to the wear indicators. The back tires look brand new. I intentionally did the experiment to see how much difference not rotating the tires makes. It makes sense with the heavy load that regen braking puts on the tires.
Love it, more motor teardowns please!
Really neat to see all the reasons (like cooling methods) cheap DIY conversions will never reach the performance/efficiency specs of a reasonably priced fully engineered volume produced vehicle. Hopefully DIY conversions will nonetheless continue getting better/cheaper over time and give a nice hobbyist alternate universe to paying for subscription seat warmers and other such dystopian things. Even if the smaller alternative universe always lags the volume dystopia.
26:29 No. The purpose of ceramic coatings (on balls or rings) is to avoid current running from the inner ring over the balls to the outer ring. On classical bearings there would occur "micro sparcs", damaging the inner and outer ring. Basic mechanical/electrical engineering.
Same happens when doing a welding repair on a machine , if not careful current can arch across the small contact point of the balls hence eroding them putting a tiny flat spot on the balls. So best to put the return lead of the welder as close as possible to the electrode rather than far away where current might pass thru a bearing
Arcing across your balls is never a good thing.
The original Tesla Model S used a brush to “ground” the rotor to the stator and prevent arcing. Early models did NOT have that and bearings were getting chewed up.
I see quite a bit of hand-waving when I go to the literature looking for causes of bearing arcing. One of the more plausible comes from Aegis Bearing. Aegis claims that imbalance in the phases of variable frequency drive cause a common mode current offset which capacitively coupled to the motor’s rotor. Their suggested remedy is a dissipation brush snd insulated bearing, which is what we see Kia doing. That begs the question: can the inverter be improved electronically to improve balance and eliminate common mode current from being capacitively coupled into the rotor? The brush and ceramic bearing feel like post hoc Band-aid fix to the real problem. In particular, the dissipation brush is subject to wearing out or becoming noisy. So, is a better inverter a more cost effective remedy than the brush and bearing? Also a conductive lubricant additive such as Stadis 450 might be useful depending on where the problematic bearing is located.
@@wtmayhew additionally the circular brush type is said to be less effective and reliable than a spring-loaded carbon or sintered brush against a dedicated journal, at least according to a manufacturer of the latter type, could be Aegis. Earlier Hyundai/Kia (Kona/original Niro) with 'dry' motors use a softer-looking circular brush at the output end of the motor while I gathered this one was at the tail end, probably because the other end is oil-wetted. Clearly in all cases oil or grease contamination is a risk anyway. Curiously the Nissan Leaf uses 2 carbon brushes at the GRU intermediate shaft. I was wondering the same about mathematically eliminating phase imbalance and I had assumed Tesla was doing this since I've never seen a brush on any teardowns and John Kelly said he hadn't seen one either. All this is not a topic widely discussed, yet it should be.
Great info guys. It does make you wonder why the Korean automakers can be this innovative in their EV engineering, but the Japanese automakers are not!
Well, apart from Tesla there isn't really a high enough demand for these cars. The general view of people is that these cars blow up and will run out of battery. No one wants one (unless you are into tech, know a lot about ev companies, or follow an ev company). Companies like Toyota and Honda are actually praised for not making EVs because EVs are seen as scams made to push climate change initiatives.
Japanese do even more!
@@brunoheggli2888 Interesting to see a Munroe teardown of those advanced Japanese vehicles 😉
@@brunoheggli2888 Duh, the Koreans are so far ahead of everyone else outside of Tesla, it's almost incredible. The Japanese just start to grasp how difficult it is to make a competitive EV. In other words, they are now about where the Koreans were in 2014. And it gets harder to catch up every day, as the EV evolution speeds up every day.
@@bagheera32 They are not on the market yet,and for good reasons!It makes not much sense to build full evs with the present shitty batterietech!Better just selling hybrids and pluginhybrids until the future way more efficent tech is ready!
Great presentation guys, glad my EV6 is up there with innovative technology !!!! 😎🤠
Parking pawls are they way to go for vehicles parked up for extended periods in inclement weathers. Caliper pads should never be left touching brake disks for extended periods or they will rust on to the disk, damaging both. The manual ICE equivalent would be to leave it parked in gear.
100%
EVs don't typically come with disks that can rust. That solves the problem right there.
That drivetrain can already do 300 miles. I have done it many times myself in my Ioniq 5. The way the EPA does their test, it seems to be very understated for the Ioniq 5.
The EPA is the same for all. Also the more realistic WLTP. The overall consumption is +20% compared to Tesla.
@@Stefan_Dahn not always, because what mode they do the test in and what regen setting they have it on matters and it’s not always apples to apples as which mode is more efficient in which car. I’ve almost always had a range much greater than the stated EPA range except in the winter. Most of the time around 300 miles or more.
@@BeepasGarageI’ve had the same experience. Efficiency averaging 4.0 miles/kWh or 300 miles of range. We do have SE AWD with the 19 inch wheels and 235 width tires.
@@Stefan_DahnSame but different, e.g. 2 tests vs 5
Scott has a good understanding of Electronics! Who Hoo! Very impressive and information packed video. While Scott does a great job of explaining acronyms as he goes (correctly I might add) if there were a few less "monuments" along the way would be great. Perhaps a Thesaurus 😁. Great job both to Scott and Walker. Nice design work from Hyundai/Kia. I'm guessing the front drive is also for a future smaller car.
Agreed. I found the use of “monument” to describe the attributes of the inverter board a little unusual, but not a deal breaker. It was a well thought out presentation.
Both RWD and AWD Teslas have free rolling front wheels when parked, making it easier for them to lose traction when parked on snowy inclines. This surprises many owners, as they're used to AWD gas cars where the parking pawl effectively locks both front and rear wheels. So, while I agree there is no need for parking pawls in EVs, I do think they should include electronic parking brakes on all 4 wheels. It wasn't clear in this video whether Hyundai includes a parking pawl on the front, rear, or both. Given the parking brakes on the rear, I would argue it would make more sense to include the pawl only on the front drivetrain.
I agree. I think only the rear is so equipped. I've read one report of an Ioniq 5 sliding on an ice-covered driveway.
Unfortunately it's a rare case so it's not much of a concern to lock the front. Even on AWD cars the front diff is attached to a coupling diff that renders the parking pawl useless in locking the front wheels.
@@jeremyventurino9481 center diff should prevent the fronts from rolling together in the same direction as long as the rears are held by the parking brake. But if the center diff has a way to disconnect the front axle to improve fuel economy, I guess that could allow the fronts to roll freely. Is that what you’re saying? My knowledge of modern AWD systems is limited, so I’m probably behind the times on this stuff.
It will be interesting to compare with the Ioniq 5 N if you can get your hands on one of those, around 650 combined HP.
This thing will be bad ass.
Thanks for always explaining the acronyms!
Sure thing!
Great innovations, explanations and improvements to make 👍
Please allow me to explain the answer to "Why 800V?": 16:00
Electrical circuits have portions that supply electrical power(typ. battery) and portions that consume power (typ the coils of the motor). Yet other parts carry and/or regulate this power. Recollect that, in the electrical domain, power is the product of a potential "U" (sic. "voltage") [V] and current "I" [A]. This is analogous to the mechanical (rotation) domain, whereby power is the product of the torque [N.m] and angular velocity [rad/s].
Imagine you now have a drive-shaft- would you choose a high torque, with low speed, or high speed with low torque? Remember, a high speed will lead to higher frictional losses in your bearings. A high torque will require a stronger shaft.
The electrical dilemma is similar. the higher the potential ('voltage') the lower the current that is needed (for the same power), hence lower electrical losses in the various electrical parts (oversimplifying a bit) - the power-losses again correspond to the potential across 'the other components' times the current - which numerically works out to the same as their resistance times the square of the current - hence the name I-square-R losses. So what determines how high one may push the voltage? It is mostly limited by the available MOSFETs or IGBTs the auto-manufacturer can procure at non-exotic prices, and also the various insulation and safety considerations. Also, sticking to the local standards makes life easy - e.g. 230V in the EU. Multiples of the cell-pack potential is nice too.
Oh, btw - conductors are generally massier than insulators - for the same power (and power-loss), you generally also get a _lighter_ machine if the potentials are higher and the currents are correspondingly lower - my educated guess is that the tradeoff's around ~ 1000V/1A to (a ratio corresponding to approx. ~ 1 kOhm). In other words, for a practical 1 kW system, the insulator-mass would dominate if the potential were above 1kV (w/ low current), and the conductor mass would be dominant of the current were above 1A (with a lower potential).
Practically, potentials below 50V are generally safe-ish and those above 500V are generally deadly. -->this issue can be circumvented by adding layers to prevent exposing these. All these considerations drive the engineering tradeoff for an optimal electrical subsystem - the current state-of-the-art (2023) puts it squarely at 800V.
Brilliant answer , that's exactly what I was wondering. So eventually will head towards 1000 volt but probably not much more than that
@@andrewashmore8000 IMO, we'll skip the 1kV altogether, and likely directly go to 1.2kV or possibly even higher - the incremental benefit to go from 800V installed-base to a 1kV system may not justify the added cost of novelty.
@@AdityaMehendale interesting , thanks for sharing info. I think they aced the Ioniq 5 , so many cool design features. Looks really well built too. But in fairness to Lucid , they topped them all especially in the motor packaging.
The main advantage to 800V is 350kw DC charging. You also get lower weight, like you said, but this is generally offset with more battery and more car.
Probably top out at 1kV for the present (see Lucid Sapphire) mostly because thats the upper limit of deployed charging standards and what’s required for gov funding.
Good job guys, thanks. But tell Sandy to make an explanation why Cory left. I guess that thousands of people who have liked him along the way deserve it.
Agree with you on that one .
Hard redundancy should never be underestimated. Regarding parking pawls. Here's a perfect airline example where neglecting redundancy/maintenance leads to bad outcomes. Alaska Airlines Flight 261 a Fatal aviation accident that occured on January 31, 2000 over the Pacific Ocean Alaska Airlines flight of a McDonnell Douglas MD-83. Recommend looking at the accident investigation report. McDonnell Douglas cheaped out on redundancy.
This is an amazing episode 😎🔥😎🔥😎🔥
Rocking the full Michigan Mullet.
Good team, Scott's a natural. Thanks.
You bet
This E-GMP platform looks well engineered and very capable. I can't help but ask, however, if you have any insights to the IMA platform that will replace it…? Will these motors remain the same, but Hyundai will simply install different, longer batteries in the same pack…?
Exept the mechanical coupling for the front motor. Unique stupid.
@@Stefan_Dahncalling the decoupler stupid is stupid
@@Stefan_Dahn In the IMA…?
@@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος There are reasons not to like using the decoupler, namely possible increased tire wear on the primary drive wheels. Rivian R1T owners have reported having tires worn out in as few as 6K miles. In Rivian’s case the problem is apparently amplified by conserve mode also using the active suspension to reduce ride night which coincidentally changes toe angle.
Very educational great job guys looking forward to your next tear down.
Thanks 👍
12:43 The 4th lead to use the inverter as a buck or boost converter is also an idea that I have seen 10 years ago on powerfull ebike aftermarket motor controller. Where one of the 3 phases output was used as power stage to PWM an external coil in order to boost voltage from any external DC voltage source between 10V to Vbatt so it was possible to recharge a 90V battery using a simple 12, 24, 36 or 48V cheap power supply. The company was ADAPTTO, a russian company that I have represented at the 2015 at the las vegas INTERBIKE event. The idea was fantastic because as you said it use an already included power stage to PWM and buck or boost the voltage so it is an efficient way to use at maximum all integrated components! ua-cam.com/video/m49j_piYG-Y/v-deo.html
Cool great info.
Exactly!
14:00
Very similar to Renault Chameleon charger.
When Zoe was launched, there were only Type 2 plugs as standard for AC and DC charge, no CCS.
For AC charging, Zoe with Q motor could do up to 43kW 63A 400V AC.
Renault has 3 phase rectifier on the car input. After rectification, it sends rectified main though motor coils, which are used as power inductor. In single phase mode (230V), it does boost conversion. In 3 phase mode (400V), it is a buck converter.
Even the single phase mode is done on the cheap, as it connects N to L3 input via 35A relay. Also, issue is that the batrery has no galvanic isolation from mains.
It could also do (in theory) what NACS does, having both DC and AC over same pins (Tesla did this with model S for EU market) - L1 and L2 become DC (-), while L3 and N combine to become DC (+). DC goes straight though rectifier, and straight though the motor.
Great show guys. Good effort.
the tzero car from AC Propulsion used the motor inverter and the motor coils in the charging process as well
My 2023 IONIQ 6 Limited AWD 320 horsepower in normal driving mode ALWAYS shows a range of over 300 miles at 100% charge. Usually 319 mile range.
24:46 I have a dirty mind 😂
Always bless to watch.. well explained
Please rewrite the final flip chart so it’s neat and easy to read. Thanks.
I have a 2022 IONIQ 5 that had an oil leak from the plate cooler on the front motor. I think it was the small plate cooler on your table. The part took about 2 months to receive and cost around $800 Canadian. Should I expect a reduced life expectancy on the front motor due to lower lubrication pressure? Should I take this issue up with Hyundai and ask for additional warranty coverage on the motor?
Yes and yes.
Depends if the Cooler located before the vital parts or on the return where its just annoying to have a leak.
Also assuming the oil feed was litres per minute you can't have lost much pressure if you losing a few drops per hour
Good points, I thank the plate cooler would be in advance of all three coolants that utilize it. The leak was marginal since it was on the high pressure side and it never made it to a squirting stage, just a lot of oil all over the cooler. The dealership put black light dye in the oil so it could be confirmed as tight at my next appointment.
Thank u from Germany. 👍
If they put a short across the motor wouldn't that act as a brake?
Is the boost converter use the motor stator as inductor ?
Actually, adding the coupler most likely saved weight vs. adding 4.8kwh worth of battery.
About the parking pawl - I just bought an Ionic 5 and I can hear the EPB actuating each time I put the vehicle into Park, so I think the pawl is redundant. Yes, I agree that they could probably just rely on the EPB, but I suspect that they decided to keep the pawl for now while they evaluate how robust their EPB system is. I wouldn't be surprised if they eliminate it on future generations. Preventing roll-aways is a huge safety issue, so I can understand being a bit conservative with this.
Thank you for the review!! :-)
I think the redundant parking pawl is a necessary redundancy. EPBs are not necessarily bullet proof. There are a couple of failure points in those systems
Hi guys, very informative video! You could probably mention about how long do you think these cars can last, or what should the owners pay attention to make these cars last longer. Lots of people are buying these kind of cars to do taxi, I am one of them, therefore we do lots of miles with them. I know Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro Ev have developed some issues with their reduction gearbox, and they need to have them replaced, but if you are out of warranty you have to do it privately and I heard of $6000 job. Do you think Ioniq and Ev6 will have the same issue? I was thinking between and Ioniq/ EV6 and Tesla Model 3 long range as they are about the same price. I am not interested to have the fastest, I am more interested in a car that can last me 200,000 miles. Which of the 3 cars do you think is the best option? Thanks in advance
A couple of questions/comments regarding oil cooling. Glycol/water has a much greater capacity to absorb heat, but it adds complexity and maintenance problems such as corrosion and the need for a system of pumps, heat exchangers and connectors. Does the oil need to be optimized for lubrication or heat absorption? I am assuming that the oil will be kept at somewhere near 100C+/- Suzuki high performance motorcycles used a system of air/oil cooling (Suzuki Advanced Cooling System) where the cylinders and head had fine pitch fins and a heat exchanger, but was able to avoid using all the extra water plumbing stuff. Beyond a certain point though, engines produce so much heat that air/oil is inadequate.
No. Why you assume 100°C?
Oil has enough heat carrying capacity to cool a high-efficiency electric motor. The most advanced gasoline engines are well below 50% efficient, whereas the motors used in EVs can easily surpass 90%. What Suzuki does sounds like what Pratt & Whitney used 70+ years ago to cool its radial piston engines. The cooling fins were actually machined with slitting saws to increase their pitch.
You're not wrong. Coolant based systems perform better in extreme environments. But coolant/water systems add complexity and cost and only really benefit in extreme use cases. Likely these motors in the Hyundai will run hot under track conditions, and throttle back their power.
Oil can still be used effectively and is likely the more reliable choice, even if it impacts the time the motors can have sustained high loads.
How does the tesla grounding solution not create a ton of drag? It must be actually riding on the ID of a bearing rather than directly on the rotor?
Well done fellas!
But I still miss Cory 😢
"High points"? Looks like a permanent magnet reluctance motor on the rear drive, but they never talked about it. 🙏🙏Please talk about the actual motor as well. Love the walkthrough video and I love the Munro group giving us all the answers that are so hard to find otherwise.
GOOD JOB!
Thanks!
Does the oil pump only spin when the axle spins? Didn't you show some other EV motor that has oil always flowing?
Wow, excellent job.
I heard that if it’s asynchronous motor that won’t generate losses when, so you don’t need to dissconnect the axle
Why would you use a boost converter to get to 800 volts from 400 in stead of just splitting the battery pack in two 400 volt packs and have a contactor that switches between wiring the two halves in series or parallell to achieve 800 or 400 volt?
Given that South Korea is supposed to be a free trade partner with the US, it is not right that these cars do not qualify for tax credits, except when leased.
It is the fact that the cables can be lighter guage ( when using high voltage ) and hence cheaper. You kept on saying voltage, but it is LOWER CURRENT
when using high voltage. You missed this point completely. It is exactly the same reason they use 220KV transmission lines to keep the current down when moving huge amounts of power.
So using the inverter in the motor to boosts the voltage to 800 volts to charge the pack from a 400volt charger. Makes sense on Kyle’s videos (out of spec reviews) charging the lucid the car jerks forward. Lucid must have something going on in the inverter assuming that the inverter is boosting the voltage to charge the 800 volt pack.
Can you please link to this video of the Lucid jerking forward? Afaik, on the lucid the pre-conditioning function uses the motor windings, but not the charging.
@@stefansmolenaers I’ve seen him reference it multiple times over a couple videos , this is the most recent time I’ve heard him say something about it. At 53 minutes in . ua-cam.com/video/2IzUgbmwcIg/v-deo.html
wow, very interesting! thanks
So why does it only get much less power than Taycan from v3 SC?
@@abraxastulammo9940 seems like software issue with North American superchargers.
In Europe, GV60 (same platform) gets constant 123kW at SC v3
How much did going with IGBTs save for the front inverter and was it also from Infineon. Some OEMs like to diversify their semiconductor suppliers for risk mitigation and arguably pricing negotiation.
Assuming the 800v battery voltage is because of multiple cells in series could smaller groups of cells be charged in parallel at 400v? No conversion needed just some extra conductors
On the decoupler information, the range on the RWD Ioniq 5, which does not have a decoupler, is 303 miles so no benefit there. The AWD version is 266 miles, so it gets them above the 250 mile threshold. Now on the Ioniq 6 SE AWD, it gets Hyundai well above the real 300 mile limit.
Brilliant video guys!!
Thanks!
Are you guys going to rip apart an ioniq 5N powertrain and compare? Would be awesome to see what they changed to get the power doubled!
No plans to teardown an Ioniq 5N.
What about using an induction motor in the front instead?
so you gotta change the oil?
Is the oil in the stator a concern in terms of maintenance service?
Do you guys know to which extent these designs and preductions parts may be the work of Rimac? From easy on in their BEV journey, Rimac has been said to be involved?
It would be sweet is Sandy could go to Croatia to talk to the guys at Rimac. Obviously they would never let him tear one of their cars apart but they might be fine with doing an engineering breakdown of parts that are not installed yet.
Interesting reveal on the power electronics in that the rear inverter uses MOSFETs and the front unit employs IGBTs. If I am recalling my history properly, early EVs used MOSFETs (the EV1 used MOSFETs), but the industry switched to IGBTs due to their higher current carrying capacity. However, Tesla went back to MOSFETs after finding a way to engineer in Silicon Carbide (SiC), which cost less but could carry the current load.
It seems the industry transitioned to SiC MOSFETs. I think Munro has called out SiC MOSFETs being employed in the Rivian inverter. Therefore it is interesting to see Hyundai going with IGBTs in the front inverter (which assumedly uses less power??). Would love to hear why they made that move.
I like this video. I verry fun. I hope will see videos relate ev ( ionq5 , ionq6. ) thank and regards !
Could you provide a insight on the particular drive trains on the new 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 N?
Unless I misheard what is a "high voltage monument "? Did they mean to say "module"?
Sounds more professional than "thingamajig".
I read somehwere that the front motors are changing to a more efficient silicon invertor or something in the next model year.
Is the oil pump a mechanical pump?
Would love to see a dissembled Nio ET5 or another Nio model. Interesting architecture with the battery-swap system etc.
Wow, the price of SIC MOSFET (white part of inverter) is insane. Roughly $3,000. But it is crucial component for higher efficiency.
Hyundia E-GMP is Rear biased AWD, I think that is the term you were looking for.
overall i liked the video but the explanation of the 4 posts instead of three in the inverter to deal with 800 volts was as clear as mud to me.
I was slightly puzzled too but remembered that the 800V is only single phase. They should have mentioned what was wired to that post.
@@paulaxford6754 Isn't the fourth connection (the WYE point) for using the motor coils as part of the Electrical filter design to reduce harmonics instead of a separate inductor?
Re AWD decoupling savings, can the drag of the engaged but unenergized front motor not be negated by reducing the energy supplied to the rear motor and simultaneously applying that low level of power to the front motor?
Also, isn't there a handling hit when passing, either caused by no available AWD or by its abrupt engagement?
The drag is caused by the friction of the motor and gears spinning vs being stopped. So if the motor is spinning, the fricion power is lost to heat. Doesn't matter if spun by torque from electric current or torque from tires on the road.
I'm also wondering how smooth it is when the motor is engaged. Has to take some time to accelerate the motor up to speed before engaging. Can any AWD Hyundai owners comment?
WRT the decoupler, how quickly can that respond? What happens if you go from highway cruising to wide open throttle? Does it screw the shift fork back the other way and reconnect the front axle as fast as an automatic transmission would downshift?
In the miliseconds, and likely the motor will spin up to synchronize with the shaft.
@@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος, undoubtedly. Imagine the drama if it didn't!
You can't tell when it engages or disengages. The only way you can tell, is on one of the dashboard displays. When you gun it, the front wheels instantly react.
Sport mode just leaves it engaged. You wouldn’t notice the hookup time/effect unless you really know what to look for, average driver wouldn’t notice.
Parking lock vs e-brake, the parking lock on the transmission will always be far superior to the e-brake. Brakes fail with age specialty in cold damp and winter climate.
If you were old enough to remember manual transmissions, they don’t have the parking lock that’s why you leave them engaged in first gear with the parking brake engaged.
Safety first before costs
9:55 You need to put “We did some math.” on a t-shirt. 😅
It is my understanding that ipedal can be used only if both motors are engaged to maximize regen. So which is more efficient? Using the single motor in economy mode to reduce drag associated with the front motor or keeping both motors engaged to maximize regenerative braking? Thanks
For the HI5/6, it is generally more efficient to drive with the front motor disengaged (non-iPedal modes) and accelerating as softly as possible. Think of iPedal as a performance mode, and not a best-efficiency mode. The efficiency of all the HI5 drive modes are significantly affected by how Hyundai has chosen to implement them in software. For example, you don't necessarily need to have both motors engaged 100% of the time to allow for 1-pedal driving (no use of brake pedal).
@@markwoods5080 Thank you for the thoughtful and informative reply.
@21:00 I forsee service issues one day when the thermal paste has dried out and these components needs to be repasted much like you see now in CPUs and their heat sinks. Is there a automotive thermal paste that lasts longer?
There are carbon pad that theoretically should last forever. Though putting it on would probably be slower than thermal paste and more expensive too
8:58 oh maths... when you get 303 with 8%, base number is 303 / 1.08 = ~280.56 and not 285 ;) (test: 285*1.08 = 307.8 and 280.56*1.08 = 303)
Actually the awd is just 266 miles 😢
Since one of the motors already has a mechanical disconnect on it, the parking pall could be eliminated by simply giving the ring a locked 3rd position.