Rivian Dual vs Quad Motor Teardown Comparison
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Sandy and Scott compare the differences between Rivians Dual vs Quad Motors.
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#Rivian #R1T #EV
The black coating around the FET's is likely for additional shielding and or thermal transfer. Those specific parts have serious dV/dT spikes when starting and stopping. The fact they painted both inner and outer surfaces is something of a "tell". They are mitigating something. The other thought is that they are attempting to transfer heat off of the aluminum. Black matte surfaces absorb IR and black shiny surfaced emit IR. So if you are building up ambient heat in that cavity you want to capture it, transfer it through the thermally conductive aluminum and then disperse it externally. Of course cooling loops do a majority of the work.
This is exactly what I thought. In our company we once did a comparison on various coatings vs no coating and it showed no effect in the color of the coating but having coating (counter intuitive) does improve the thermal emission of the part. I do not recall the exact numbers but it sure does something! The power those FETs have to handle is almost beyond imagination... Realizing your charging at like 400V and 200A (and for some vehicles it will be even more) and thinking of 24V 50A stick welding... Well it says it all... The same is obviously true for discharging and driving the car.
@@hobbykip - Spot on. The machined aluminum will conduct heat very effectively once it traverses the surface barrier. The specialized paint aids in the ingress and egress. And I agree your first thought is "wait, what?" then you read up. They are called Thermal Barrier Coatings and depending on chemistry you can keep in or help it out. My sense here is they help it out because electronics like to be cool and de-rate with heat. So the key point is its not really paint - just resembles it. It can also potentially acoustically shield. Big FET bridges tend to ring acoustically. You hear it when you start moving more than stopping (because breaking has its own noise). That whoosh or rise in noise is the pulse width modulation/frequency cranking up the current and when you take that voltage control signal and run it through a current "amplifier" you will hear it. Since you know those frequencies you can in theory mitigate it both with shielding and "potting" any inductors in the loop as the signal travelling through those winding excite the air in proximity. You hear this on switching power supplies for the same reason. Its a noise that is easily suppressed BUT does add costs as the potting must still transfer heat too.
See some cooling ridges yet not that many, would many ridges increase the EMI again?
Interesting that you mention the glossy and Matt color difference.
The three vs two tabs on the MOSFET modules is a cost vs source inductance tradeoff. The inductance of the wires between the MOSFETS and the input capacitor is a massive driver of EMI. So it looks like Rivian decided a filter on the input wires was less cost than using quieter MOSFET modules.
Carl’s smooth voice work for the Brilliant ad did not go unnoticed. If he ever gets tired of tear downs there’s a clear fallback for him in advertising, lol!
He's got the voice of an angel.
You'll notice that power difference while towing more than just zero to 60 stuff.
Nice to see Rivian doing this type of dev.
And for off-roading.
@@lanceareadbharFor my kind of off-reading power is almost irrelevant. What matters far more is traction. And Rivian’s lack of lockers is a huge disadvantage. All that power just spins the wrong wheel and we go nowhere :-(
@@WilliamAArnett You are completely mistaken, when you have a motor in each wheel you dont need lockers since each wheel has its own controller and power instead of it going through a traditional axle each wheels power can be modulated more accurately and provide better traction than any locker ever could
@@A_Man_Of_Culture_ While that is theoretically true, Rivian has failed to implement it. I've been in several situations where the wheel with traction is motionless while the others with no traction spin. Worse, sometimes I've been at full throttle but no wheels move at all. When I say "lockers" I don't care whether it's mechanical or in software: just make all 4 wheels spin at the same rate and that rate is controlled by the position of the right pedal.
It's interesting that there was no mention that one motor per axle instead of one motor per wheel sacrifices control of individual wheel torque, without resorting to wasteful brake application.
There was also no mention of increased mechanical drag due to the additional differential of the single-motor unit. It isn't much simpler, because of the requirement for that differential.
yes that actualla makes me very angry! they dont talk about some very important stuffs here, the differential isnt a problem here loll
For almost everyone, the car will "never" see even a dirt road, so the potential traction benefits are basically irrelevant. Clearly a differential is way simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a motor, gearbox and inverter.
@Ko_deZ where I live we have winter road conditions for about 5 months of the year, so traction is a challenge without ever leaving pavement. And an extra set of gearing is no more complex than a differential; the complexity difference is only in the motors and inverters.
@@Ko_deZ nonsense!!!! If ever the car is exported to foreign countries like Africa, south America ... How are those crap going to behave!? What kind of lame justification is that!? If you take a look at Afghanistan and countries around for example they are still driving around with very heavily loaded Toyota stout from the 80's crossing borders in very harsch environments....
Seemed the focus was on the difference in motors only, not the difference in design of quad vs dual. Still, some mention would be warranted.
Rivian has a lot of things to simplify about the truck. IMO they came out of the gate trying to do too much. Glad to see the updates to the motor design.
Great video! @ 14:50 Scott got in an "at the end of the day" before sandy could, lol.
Right!
It would be great if Scott could venture a little bit into the gear reducer design regarding bearing types and arrangements, lubrication flows and where shaft grounding devices are used. I like Rivian's execution of this design.
THANKS SANDY, SCOTT,AND THE MUNRO TEAM, FOR EXPLAINING CLEARLY THE BEST OF RIVIAN 🤗👍💚💚💚😊
I would like to humbly suggest that the reason the Electronics casing is black is possibly that black radiates heat better than a shiny aluminium alloy casing. In the days gone bye heat sinks, used to remove heat from bipolar and powerFet transistors, were invariably black anodized for that reason. Please confirm or deny this possibility, if you so deem it a significant issue. Great video!
I think they did not mention it because this unit is cooled by coolant flow and they know the added cooling effect of black coating would be tiny.
Sorry Sandy but GM did not invent the hairpin motor or rather the technology or technique of producing such motors. They were merely among the early adopters to implement such motors in their products.
Wow! Interesting! Great analysis. Love to see Rivian improving. Starting to see more Rivian on the road now. With Tesla charging network eventually available to everyone, Rivian would be a good option. Very sexy truck...
We are expecting to take delivery of the R1S quad motor in the next few weeks. We wanted the dual motor but Rivian said that we would have to move to the new pricing structure which was more expensive so we just stuck to the quad motor. Good to see all the improvements and it should work out well for Rivian.
Check your account again if you're not locked in. I see they are now offering the option to go from quad to dual-motor performance (for pre-price-hike order holders) and with a $500 savings.
Another great informative video by Sandy Munro/Munro Live! You can't make experts out of all car buyers, but seeing how stuff is put together and why is a great process for regular folks!
So in other words GM is going down the wrong route of just adding more and more batteries ;)
GM is clearly in it this to win on the range stats sheets only. They dont care that a heavier truck will have more repair and safety issues. They dont even seem to care that theyll only be able to sell half as many of them. Or that long, expensive charging sessions will be a sour point for customers. It does make me wonder if Ford is working on an F350 EV, or if they are waiting for a real battery breakthrough.
An F-350 would not be that big of a deal. It's mostly suspension, and a little bit of frame. I doubt the battery pack for them grow that much.
The CyberTruck has a 3500 lb payload. Its capabilities are not that far off of an F-350.
With 500 miles of range, I doubt the CyberTruck will have a battery over 150 kwh
@@Joes_Morguethe 150 kwh pack will not yield 500 mile of range. Not close
@@jackbarry9469 Why not? A model S does 405 on a 100 kwh battery! A 50% increase should be enough for a 19% increase in range!
Sad to see Corey go, but Scott is just as good as a presenter!
Wait is Corey gone?
Yep Corey announce that he was leaving Munro last week just after they got back from Tesla take over
@@stevenichols4639 Anyone know why?
Practically all of the Munro people present well and one or two, like Scott, are absolute naturals. Great content too, but of course the best ho-ho comment of the video went to Sandy as he described Sue's right foot as "aggravating". I know what he means. 😊
@@stevenichols4639Wait! What!? That’s sad. Where is he going? And why?
If you want the motor to be the oil pump, you could make the rotor have some kind of diagonals to push oil in one direction. But you could put stationary blades on the cover of the transmission case. The idea would be, the rotor would spin the oil and the diagonal blades on the cover would encourage the oil to go away from the motor’s axle.
Excellent tear down and explanations.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Non-conductive (dielectric) oil is great because - as explained in the video - you can put it where you want, but it is inferior to water-glycol as a cooling medium (heat capacity and rate of heat transfer).
Also it’s actually touching the parts that need cooling vs the heat wicking through several layers.
@@ralanham76Yes, that's what they explained and what I meant by "you can put it where you want". And heat doesn't "wick"; it conducts. Wicking is motion of fluid through a wick, despite Sandy's mis-use of the word.
Is there really such a thing as non-conductive oil? I thought it might have been a Sandyism when he said that. As far as I'm aware other wet motor designs just use ATF.
@boredKiwi yes, insulating oil is used for transformers and other electrical equipment. Remember PCBs? They were created for insulating oil, but turned out to be toxic and nasty, so other chemicals are now used instead.
@@boredKiwiI know all of our transformers are filled with “c oil”, high voltage to low voltage. Well, I can’t say that. We have one 69Kv transformer filled with some kind of food grade oil.
Our OCBs (oil filled circuit breakers) are also filled with that same “c”oil. The oil is what quenches the arc when the breaker opens or closes when placing or taking a generator offline.
So there are certainly non-conductive oils out there.
Disagreeing with the notion “Laser welds never break”, they are welds and welds fatigue over life, especially thermally induced.
Infineon recommends laser welding for these modules on prod. This module is designed for EVs, and automated production all over the place and I think Infineon did their homework.
Yeah they do recommend laser welding, just don’t give you the welding parameters to your own busbars; which is where the potential failure mechanism comes in.
Great video as always but you should mention there is no locker in the dual motor so they will have to distribute torque by brake. Quad should still be king in off road and slippery situations.
Excellent video and audio gentleman. I live right down the street from Rivian service center. Learned alot . Thanks to the cameraman person too. Amazing engineering.
Yes! Thank you
You are so welcome!
When are we going to see a benchmark / table enumerating the different motors, their weight, torque and horsepower and efficiencies? In hub and axle mounts. Add the battery pack comparison and finally vehicle implementation and mileage. I'm really interested in the axial flux motors for low end vehicles. The "peoples car" aka basic transportation has zero need for 1000+HP. Never going to use it going to the supermarket or work.
Great video. Why don’t EVs have at least a 2nd gear. If you can have a disconnect, how much more difficult would it be to implement a 2nd gear. Given the importance of efficiency, wouldn’t another gear make a huge difference. Thanks.
I've driven sprint cars. Many years ago. And an EV is the only fun street car I have ever driven. I own a Ioniq 5 and an F-150 Lightning. Rivian is doing well to offer these 'lower spec' motors. Still good fun and more efficient.
@18:15. Maybe EMI, but more likely just simple black body radiator principles.
Also, any type of quality conformal coating on an assembly like this will lower failure probability when subjected to challenging environmental issues. Just try to keep equipment going in a place like Rotorua, New Zealand for example, where the sulfur in the air (geothermally active area) will 'rot' out electronics very quickly unless suitably protected.
The reason why some companies paint aluminum castings is due to porosity problems resulting in water/ contamination problems.
that's what crossed my mind ...
Hi Sandy, I would love if you could answer a couple question, who are the major suppliers of Ev components and what component do they supply to Ev manufacturer?
1. Why painted back? My take: they're using black-body emission (radiation) principle to enhance thermal management: added heat dissipation without adding mass
2. Isolating the wheel bearing is most efficient instead of decoupling at the gearbox
What do you suggest to keep the wires cool?.
The ideal would be to find out what causes heat and change the design so it doesn’t heat up. Or it minimally heats up.
Really Well Done Show - Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
It is really a shame not to be able to understand your entire analysis, because the translation is absent !! 😭
The musical intro is really good !! bon travail !!👍
What are the max rpm specs of each motor? And is there a difference in gear ratio?
The reduction ratio of the new unit appears to be very high, suggesting a high motor speed. At 10 seconds in the gears are shown, but not enough of the input gear is visible to be sure of the tooth count, and the small gear of the second stage isn't visible at all, so it's not practical to work out the ratio from this image. Since this video ignores the reduction gearing, I don't think there's another point at which the teeth of all gears can be counted.
Pretty complicated units, but for sure interesting. Thanks.
The comments about everything in the original 4-motor drive unit coming from Bosch is not true. Bosch provided the rotor / stator portions of the drive unit (effectively the electric motor) but the power electronics, gear reductions and final assembly were designed and manufactured in-house. The new drive unit was indeed 100% in-house with impressive improvements in the design and manufacturing approaches.
my boss used to say to the apprentices why do screws have threads
the answer was to take them out that's why you use a nail 1/4 of the price
I hope you guys will one day get your hands on the upcoming Koenigsegg Dark Matter 6-phase motor. Tuned to match thei're ICE's for top rpm @8250, 39 kg, 800 hp. I suspect there's nothing cheap about how they produce that, but full production is 300 pcs plus spares until we hear them do more with that MGU. Their FreeValve (yes, pure hypdraulic valves) 3-cyl 2L turbo 600 hp 70kg ICE will probably also raise some eyebrows, and I do hope they will sell (licenses) of that engine far and wide. Seem amazing for any fuel scrootch hypercar, spec series race car, etc. And then there's their new 9-spd gearbox that's tiny and faster than you've every seen. Of and you can switch it to 6-stick-manual. The best gearbox design ever, when the world is trying to tell us ICE is baaaad.
Cool.
Cool info.
Thank you!
You're welcome!
Great info, thanks guys!!!
Our pleasure!
How does the speed of the wheel axis synchronize to motor speed to match the splines up when connecting again after free wheeling. Zero torque on disconnect seem easier but not totaly obvious. I did not see any synchronizing mechanics.
Cool intro music 🎶
Yeah, I dig it also!
Look forward to seeing Scott in his upcoming role on Hulu... The Wild Forest Man in Michigan!
@20:39 When you guys are talking about the mosfets, I would disagree, As an electrical engineer, I know that electronics tend to fail also and if one of the welded mosfets fail, you will have to replace that whole thing which could cost more. I also don't like bolted on. there is a best of 2 worlds though, that is a silver solder joint. why silver, the high melting temperature and strength.
On the topic of Rivian, I had heard of poor tire wear issues at different ride heights. Has the team or Sandy noticed any issues on tire wear now that they have had a Rivian for some time?
Vehicle alignment is set at a specific ride height per Rivian's directions in their repair procedures. If the customer plans on driving mainly in another ride height, then they need to get the vehicle alignment done at that specific ride height, since it will noticably effect the alignment angels and thus cause uneven tire wear
Tire wear not an issue for my R1T. Only 1/32 of wear at 5k miles
I've lost 3/32 in just over 10k. Drive aggressive occasionally. Always keep at standard height unless off road. That's what the suspension is tuned for. The range bump isn't even noticeable at lower heights and more tear on tires
10+ thumbs up @@KCautodoctor
Good morning Sandy, given that you have more access and the knowledge, do you think this makes sense taking into account All the pros and cons. I am R1T owner since June 2022 over 40K miles on it. Are you guys open to modify the Conserve mode to instead of turning off the rear motors and having 2 motors of around 400hp output just keep the 4 motors operating and have an output of about the same eliminating the side effects of uneven tires consumption from front wheel drive compared to 4 wheel drive and no sacrifice on the safety on the same.
12:50 Does the disconnect unit works as a differential lock where both wheels turn at the same speed,
something needed in muddy situation, or does the disconnect unit function is to isolate the motor
from the wheels so the truck can be tow behind another vehicule like an RV instead to have to be
transported on a platform ?
Was wondering the same myself.
Disconnect is to disconnect the wheel and the motor for efficiency. Even when the rotor runs unpowered it cuts magnetic fields creating losses. Disconnecting it makes it more efficient
Sadly, the disconnect is not a locker. Methinks Rivian doesn’t care much about serious off-reading.
@@WilliamAArnett Well, serious off-roading is what the quad-motor drive-train is for, and in that application, it is pretty much unequaled.
@@TheUweRoss yeah, except that it doesn't work very well. Try climbing a slippery steep slope: no matter how much right pedal you give it, it will just sit there with one wheel spinning slowly and the others stopped. The one that spins is the one with the LEAST traction so it does nothing. The one(s) with traction don't get any torque.
Obviously, they have independent control of each wheel. It seems to me that this is just a software problem that could be fixed with an over-the-air update. But this problem has been known for a year (at least) with no improvement. They do send out lots of software updates so they do have a team of engineers that could fix this. That they don't can only mean they think this is a minor problem. But for me, crawling up the rocks is the. truck's main function. If it can't do that, its other virtues are moot.
There are many other aspects of the R1T that limit its rock crawling ability (no rocker protection, poor approach and departure angles, no winch, too small tires, too big wheels). But those are all harder to fix.
"It'll never come apart" How can this be repaired/remanufactured then? It's fine saying it cost less to manufacture or it's more reliable but when it does fail should we really expect to be throwing it away?
Why did Cory leave?
How do they cool the inverter in the new Rivian design? With oil as well (one common oil loop) or with an additional ethylene-glycol line from the central coolant reservoir?
I saw an oil filter so presumably that oil and filter will become a service item at some point any Ideas how long?
In case viewers missed it: it is on the bench at 8:04 and Scott puts it aside at 12:15. The black thing with "Rivian" printed on it (despite coming from some supplier). I do not know the maintenance schedule for Rivian, but for Tesla this is a 60k miles / 100k km service item. Even if it does not appear in Teslas maintenance schedule. And there is a second one that looks like an internal filter for gearbox oil at 0:12.
It's probably a plastic screen and is not intended to be serviceable. Common for other oil-wetted motor designs as well.
@@boredKiwi Plastic screen? Can't believe that. That is an oil filter.
Great review !
Scott, you mentioned the huge capacitor that the quad motor had, how much smaller the new one is ?
Can you look into the Audi APA320 rear single and ATA250 Duel Pack coaxial motors on day? We haven't seen the latest Audi iteration yet.
Was Sandy correct about the oil characteristics? Many other EVs have 'wet' motor designs (Bolt and all H/K E-GMP range, and Tesla) but I've not heard of any that require anything other than a synthetic ATF.
Great info but living in snow half through the year. Would dual or quad be best?
GREAT to see a non-scummy SPONSOR.... Supplments are total BS 👺
Wow! I understood everything.
The power electrics on the radars of the AWACS planes are submerged in 3M glycol that has a higher thermal conductivity than water and is obviously electrically non conductive.
Plus you can run a brushed DC motor submerged in glycol or diesel without shorting so no need for oil which has terrible thermal conductivity.
Efficient would be to build and ride public transport. 🙃
Nice video!
No, you wouldn't add a coating to a cast aluminum housing for EMI - that would make zero sense, since the housing itself is a complete shield. The coating might be for thermal characteristics (emissivity), for corrosion (due to some difference in corrosion susceptibility of the inverter housing versus the rest of the unit), or just for appearance. It's probably not appearance, because the coating is on the inside of the housing, not just the outside. Whatever the reason, since you don't know the reason, it is nonsensical to say that you wouldn't do it.
its a good idea to question that descision though, since it might not be needed anymore. similar to a story with Tesla where they had a fleece between the battery and the bottom floor that held up their assmbly line since the machines to put it in place had problems grabbing it. asking around no one had an idea what it was actually for (it was neither NVH nor fire proofing) they made some units without it and there was no measurable difference, so they left it out entirely.
it's totally fine to question it. but sandy said he wouldn't do it without even knowing why. Some guys in a comment above answered why.
GM did not invent the hairpin winding motor.
The Wikipedia article for "Hairpin technology' reports that "The first production vehicle with hairpin technology was the 2008 General Motors Chevrolet Tahoe hybrid featuring 2 motors with this stator construction in GM's 2ML70 "2Mode" transmission"; that's what I recall, and that's probably what Sandy is referring to. I assume that you are saying that there were non-automotive applications of hairpin wiring before that, or that the transmission from Global Hybrid Corporation was not an exclusively GM product.
@brianb-p6586 Correct, GM may be first in automotive use, but hairpin windings have been around for well over 100 years.
What a shame they didnt implement a three function disconnect that could lock the differentian as well for offroad.
Was there anything good about the Bosch motor?
they should have put a disconnect for efficiency on one axle and a locking diff on the other.
I LOVE IT. ❤ 😍 THANK YOU #MUNROLIVE
You guys have some signs in your shop spelled wrong…😉
Should be Ioniq 5 Zone 2, not Ionic 5 Zone 2
Will you get a VW APP550 Motor to check the improvements to the 310?
The „Black“ alloy case is probably black for cooling reasons. In the past most heatsinks were black? (Today i see almost all colors.) Importsant is the thermal radiation behaviour in the infrared spectrum and at least back in the days black anodized hetsinks have been better than natural aluminium ones. Any experts here to correct me if im wrong?
Rivian should look into in-wheel motors which I think the future for passenger EVs. It appears that in-wheel motors more suitable for pickups or trucks as one can have large diameter wheels and fit everything in there. What if you have wheels so large that there is less need for suspension travel?
Unsprung weight is bad, m'okay?
@@TheUweRoss Front wheel drive is bad. front engine mount is bad. Heavy cars is bad
I hope Rivian continues to grow.
I want to buy my next car from a CEO who’s NOT a prick.
wow! ya'll R all over this! & wowee! hasn't Rivian made a huge re-design! in a huge green way! great show guy's! I'm blown away!🦾
Black is a better heat disperser
Why all the extra parts? Why not 04 hub motors instead?
It is $100k in Canada
Fascinating , cool video guys. Some interesting things to learn. Oil cooling that goes everywhere, almost like a engine. Hairpin stator , versus wound Coilwire. Inverter mounting built into motor frame to save cost.
Good one.. Goo explanation... ❤
cool 👍
Great to see Rivian is going to succeed. Bosch has lost its way since dieselgate... Which it was 100% behind..
I find this more complicated/more parts than Tesla's.
How does this motor compare against tesla's motor?
LOVE SCOTT💪❤
Highly respect Munro's honesty: "GM lead the way with electrification...the EV1... and...whatever".
Hmm i'm curious what oil Rivian uses... Tesla uses ATF6 so def nothing special like transformer oil...
What made Rivian stand out was the quad-motor, totally independent power delivery to each wheel. This is cost reduction, not improvement.
More efficient, less weight, more range. And lower cost. The quad motor with its advantages won’t go away.
What are the 3 most expensive components in EVs?
Black radiates heat a bit better or not.
it could be the black paint is to identify a DO NOT JACK ZONE AND/OR Fire mans shut off location
quad Rivian motors and 400 miles of range.. should be the next move. @rivian please make it happen to compete w Plaid and Lucid
Niether $100,000 or $74,000 for a truck is attainable to the masses like an Escalade iq starting at $130,000! That will mean the suburban version will be over $100k this is insanity
Sir I am from Pakistan love and respect for your content
What's better than taking things apart and not having to put them back together again...HHmm Pt Ea,😁
Single motor should be sufficient
RIVIAN is a nice Design , but its too Complex , too HEAVY , too many Parts & Process.
too many BUS bars and too many motor Brackets , holding up more Brackets.
RIVIAN wont be profitable until their R2 platform.
Wow,Rivian is mindblowing,gamechanging amazing!Game over for Tesla!
Hi
Hello
It would be interesting to get a performance comparison with Tesla high tech motors capable of over 20.000 RPM
Very disappointed to see Rivian go to all this work to make a new drive train and not include a locker.
I'm surprised more EV companies don't just use the exact same motors.
Will Rivian as a lifestyle brand ever make a proper large estate "cross-country" style? They could be naughty and offer it with a prop shaft for AWD, use just the one motor and optimize cargo space for a 4-seat configuration.
A low drag estate with a decent battery size would get wicked range (see Lucid's example with a sedan). Tesla is FINALLY offering a lower range version Model S and X again. Possibly just a software restricted top buffer (80% becomes 100%) for amazing"virtual" charge curve and long distance average travel speed, but a true smaller battery an lighter overall vehicle would still give owners a good experience.
120 lbs. down, 4,880 to go and then they'll have a nice truck?