I double bass and tenor, I play bass for jazz usually and tenor for marching and symphonic. It’s definitely tough to double, bass trombone is surprisingly different and requires far more air but it’s so much fun
Hi Jim,Thanks for your video. I found your comments very interesting. I am a trombonist in the British Army and I predominantly play tenor. However, for the past few months I have been switching between bass and tenor. I think my biggest hurdle was purely getting used to changing mouthpiece size and not so much the instrument. Once I'd played the bass for 1/2 hour or so, I would play just as I do the tenor. I agree with your comment about taking care of your sound on the bass, that it isn't channelled too much that you lose breadth and depth of sound. That is really all I have to think about when switching between tenor and Bass. Thanks again and best wishes,Paul.
Great video and good thoughts. The real trouble with doubling/switching back and forth isn't just conceptual (although that is a component), but it's mostly the difference in rim diameter between tenor mouthpieces and bass trombone mouthpieces, unless you use mouthpieces with rather large rim diameters to begin with. But if you play on a 5G-ish sized mouthpiece and then switch to bass trombone, even using a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece such as a 2G, that's still 1.25mm difference in diameter, which is HUGE. The mouthpiece, particularly the lips, is one of the most sensitive part of the human body, which is why we can perceive even the minutest of imperfections on mouthpiece rims. I think it's helpful for those who use a small-ish mouthpiece on tenor to try to use the smallest bass trombone mouthpiece which would still allow them to have a great, true bass trombone sound.
I don’t disagree at all that they are indeed different, and this video wasn’t intended to negate it. It’s intent is to dispel the notion that we need to actively do something to make a difference greater than it really is. Allowing the instrument to do the work for us is key, and that means avoiding manufacturing a sound that isn’t what the instrument is designed to do. In my case, I sometimes use a very small bass mouthpiece for my tenor work; but I’m leaning more and more into experimenting using standard tenor equipment and acclimating myself to the change between the tenor and bass mouthpieces and instruments.
Nice philosophy here. One thing that I (as a bass trombonist) always thought was important, was to not start on such a huge mouthpiece in the beginning of starting the bass trombone. Something along the size of a Bach 3G would be a great place to start. After many months, move to something the size of a Bach 1.5G. After many months of that, have fun experimenting with going bigger and what will work for you. I might add, that I used the Bach 1.5G as it worked for me as an all-around (jazz, pit, orchestral, commercial) bass trombonist. I switched to bass trombone when I was a sophomore in high school. I didn't start doubling on a tenor until after college. I found going back to tenor was harder than going to bass. Seemed like I had too much embouchure to fit into the tenor mouthpiece. My eventual overall compromise? If a gig required a large bore tenor (or a trombone that needed to cover a wide range) I used my bass trombone with a Bach 4G mouthpiece. I never took a chamber/orchestral gig (except pits) that required me to play lead. When I did play lead in pits and jazz, I used a Bach 7C with an early 70s era Olds Recording tenor trombone. This worked for me for 30 years (now retired for 13 years). Thanks for the video!
Jim, how do you factor in instrument length? I have my thoughts but don't want to ramble. I was comparing Eb alto to similar bore Bb tenor, and Bb bass with similar bore F contra(round about speaking) Thanks! Jeremy.
Although I've played woodwinds and strings in the past, at age 68 I decided to take up brass, starting with a straight tenor trombone, and it went well. I've branched to other instruments from cornet to tuba, and as you said, they are all different and need to be treated as such. More recently, I obtained a valve trombone (that is, an old instrument having three piston valves) and finally a bass trombone having one trigger. It has a somewhat different feel and sound from the other trombones, and will take some time to "get used" to it, but I'm having fun learning when to use the trigger. Yes, I can play the same notes as I can on a tuba, but the technique and "feel" are very different.
Very cool! In my Suzuki teaching, I have one trumpet student, and for that lesson I play cornet. Completely different instrument and approach, and yet so much is similar: embouchure formation, the fact that the wind needs to flow. The biggest difference is simply in the quantity of wind, and the size of the aperture. James Morrison makes it look easy, and that’s because he also realizes that those changes are simple, meaning uncomplicated - even if they aren’t easy! Good luck!
I did not see your calculations, but bore apparently measures diameter so that could cause your comparison to underestimate the difference. It is the area of the tubing which matters even in a simplified model, and that is not taking into account differences in instrument length which I am sure also makes a difference in the airflow required to resonate an instrument. None of that has to do with the main point though and as a tenor trombone player looking to learn bass, I appreciate your advice.
Interesting thoughts, got a lot from this video. But trombonists who play on a small bore tenor will have a much bigger difference, I even think it’s as different as switching to tuba. That being said I agree with your ideas about keeping things natural
As an active basstrombonist, is it a good idea to invest in a tenor? Especially for joining groups like jazz combos and such? Or just having on in general, could it have some benefits as a basstrombonist?
It will help with your high range. As a tenor player who just started doubling on bass, it's easy for me to play stuff on it normally meant for tenor. If anything you'll turn into a tenor trombonist with a killer low range, not many tenor players can play well in the f to c partial because most of them focus too much on higher stuff. I know it's been 3 years since you posted this but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
The main point I get from this is the simple thing of "Just practice and play, and you'll get the feeling for bass/tenor/alto". Or is there anything else to take away from this vid?
I am a freshman in high school and my director just handed me a bass trombone and told me he needs me to play it and I really don’t have any idea how to get a good sound or honestly what the point is. I’m also sick right now so I don’t have the ability to take in the air to play this thing to the full potential I don’t think.
Andon same problem ^^ I'm a freshmen that is just learning how to play the bass, but because of quarantine I don't have a director to teach me, so I'm teaching myself. My directors are wanting us to play our all region stuff for next year, but I can't play lower notes that well. I'm just surfing the internet for good tips 😅
@@shahahayla bruh I tought myself but I got to play bass bone sophomore year during quarantine but I never got to use it at school it was a single trigger but it was still fun. I play tenor and baritone this year now, trombone section leader got the bass bone...I'm a junior now and ima get a job after marching season so I can get a double trigger. It's gonna be a crazy senior year two bass bones at football games😤🤟
Good question! I think that you should switch whenever you feel like making the switch. Whether you play tenor or bass, you will still want to develop similar fundaments, including the upper and lower registers, so which vehicle you choose to do so is up to you! There’s the advantage that more repertoire exists for tenor, but of course bass trombonists can use the same rep as written, or in different clefs/keys. Whichever you choose, remember that all of your technical work is to accomplish a musical goal. And good luck!
@@eyvindjr idk what we talkin bout but I play tenor bone, baritone, euphonium, single trigger bass bone, and I'm learning sousaphone. Next I gotta get double trigger. I'm mainly a bone player but I'm practicing different instruments just to learn them.😅
@@gametexplore8137 I was talking about a professional level. Even the very best multi instrumentalists start having weak spots with 3 or more instruments compared to specialists
@@gametexplore8137 Please be careful, though! If you plan on studying music performance, I think it would be wise to start narrowing it down to 2 already, eventually auditioning only with 1. I know examples of people getting into college on both trombone and euphonium, but they are very rare!
Bass trombone not only requires a much bigger mouthpiece, it requires dedicated embouchure conditioning to adapt to the bigger mpc. Without that conditioning (arpeggios, scales, octaves) you don't have a focused centered sound. I don't hear this nearly enough. Instead, I hear videos like this, and wannabe bass trombonists who sound awful.
I double bass and tenor, I play bass for jazz usually and tenor for marching and symphonic. It’s definitely tough to double, bass trombone is surprisingly different and requires far more air but it’s so much fun
The Giant Rat That Makes All Of The Rules, I do the same, and I was worried that it’s not normal. Are you in high school or college (or professional?)
Same, only problem is that I'm struggling with tone and notes above the staff on bass trombone.
Yes! Less is more. I'm so happy you are explaining Resonance! As per usual,wonderfully explained. Thank you, Mr. Markey.
Hi Jim,Thanks for your video. I found your comments very interesting. I am a trombonist in the British Army and I predominantly play tenor. However, for the past few months I have been switching between bass and tenor.
I think my biggest hurdle was purely getting used to changing mouthpiece size and not so much the instrument. Once I'd played the bass for 1/2 hour or so, I would play just as I do the tenor.
I agree with your comment about taking care of your sound on the bass, that it isn't channelled too much that you lose breadth and depth of sound. That is really all I have to think about when switching between tenor and Bass.
Thanks again and best wishes,Paul.
Great video and good thoughts. The real trouble with doubling/switching back and forth isn't just conceptual (although that is a component), but it's mostly the difference in rim diameter between tenor mouthpieces and bass trombone mouthpieces, unless you use mouthpieces with rather large rim diameters to begin with. But if you play on a 5G-ish sized mouthpiece and then switch to bass trombone, even using a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece such as a 2G, that's still 1.25mm difference in diameter, which is HUGE. The mouthpiece, particularly the lips, is one of the most sensitive part of the human body, which is why we can perceive even the minutest of imperfections on mouthpiece rims.
I think it's helpful for those who use a small-ish mouthpiece on tenor to try to use the smallest bass trombone mouthpiece which would still allow them to have a great, true bass trombone sound.
I don’t disagree at all that they are indeed different, and this video wasn’t intended to negate it. It’s intent is to dispel the notion that we need to actively do something to make a difference greater than it really is. Allowing the instrument to do the work for us is key, and that means avoiding manufacturing a sound that isn’t what the instrument is designed to do. In my case, I sometimes use a very small bass mouthpiece for my tenor work; but I’m leaning more and more into experimenting using standard tenor equipment and acclimating myself to the change between the tenor and bass mouthpieces and instruments.
@@markeybone wow. I had forgotten all about this. Thank you for your response. I appreciate your work and many contributions to pedagogy.
So much good sense - even though those 15 thousandths felt big to me when I switched to bass.
I love the videos! Thank you for sharing your insights on these things.
I know-better 6 years late than never…. :) Cheers!
Nice philosophy here. One thing that I (as a bass trombonist) always thought was important, was to not start on such a huge mouthpiece in the beginning of starting the bass trombone. Something along the size of a Bach 3G would be a great place to start. After many months, move to something the size of a Bach 1.5G. After many months of that, have fun experimenting with going bigger and what will work for you. I might add, that I used the Bach 1.5G as it worked for me as an all-around (jazz, pit, orchestral, commercial) bass trombonist.
I switched to bass trombone when I was a sophomore in high school. I didn't start doubling on a tenor until after college. I found going back to tenor was harder than going to bass. Seemed like I had too much embouchure to fit into the tenor mouthpiece. My eventual overall compromise? If a gig required a large bore tenor (or a trombone that needed to cover a wide range) I used my bass trombone with a Bach 4G mouthpiece. I never took a chamber/orchestral gig (except pits) that required me to play lead. When I did play lead in pits and jazz, I used a Bach 7C with an early 70s era Olds Recording tenor trombone. This worked for me for 30 years (now retired for 13 years). Thanks for the video!
Jim, how do you factor in instrument length? I have my thoughts but don't want to ramble. I was comparing Eb alto to similar bore Bb tenor, and Bb bass with similar bore F contra(round about speaking) Thanks! Jeremy.
Although I've played woodwinds and strings in the past, at age 68 I decided to take up brass, starting with a straight tenor trombone, and it went well. I've branched to other instruments from cornet to tuba, and as you said, they are all different and need to be treated as such. More recently, I obtained a valve trombone (that is, an old instrument having three piston valves) and finally a bass trombone having one trigger. It has a somewhat different feel and sound from the other trombones, and will take some time to "get used" to it, but I'm having fun learning when to use the trigger. Yes, I can play the same notes as I can on a tuba, but the technique and "feel" are very different.
Very cool! In my Suzuki teaching, I have one trumpet student, and for that lesson I play cornet. Completely different instrument and approach, and yet so much is similar: embouchure formation, the fact that the wind needs to flow. The biggest difference is simply in the quantity of wind, and the size of the aperture. James Morrison makes it look easy, and that’s because he also realizes that those changes are simple, meaning uncomplicated - even if they aren’t easy! Good luck!
@@markeybone Thanks!
I did not see your calculations, but bore apparently measures diameter so that could cause your comparison to underestimate the difference. It is the area of the tubing which matters even in a simplified model, and that is not taking into account differences in instrument length which I am sure also makes a difference in the airflow required to resonate an instrument.
None of that has to do with the main point though and as a tenor trombone player looking to learn bass, I appreciate your advice.
Interesting thoughts, got a lot from this video. But trombonists who play on a small bore tenor will have a much bigger difference, I even think it’s as different as switching to tuba. That being said I agree with your ideas about keeping things natural
its kinda like perfect fifths and tri tones. the little difference makes a big difference
Love this!
I love the Bach 4GB on my tenor trombone and can play up to high C. Should I try an even larger rim before switching to Bass.
As an active basstrombonist, is it a good idea to invest in a tenor? Especially for joining groups like jazz combos and such? Or just having on in general, could it have some benefits as a basstrombonist?
One*
It will help with your high range. As a tenor player who just started doubling on bass, it's easy for me to play stuff on it normally meant for tenor. If anything you'll turn into a tenor trombonist with a killer low range, not many tenor players can play well in the f to c partial because most of them focus too much on higher stuff. I know it's been 3 years since you posted this but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
@@Dr_E_Yekley fr tho I can barely play an f on tenor but I could almost reach a Bb in the high range
Do you have any tips for someone doubling from tuba to bass?
I have the same question.
The main point I get from this is the simple thing of "Just practice and play, and you'll get the feeling for bass/tenor/alto". Or is there anything else to take away from this vid?
That's a very simple and concise way of putting it. Sometimes we need to be reminded of why, though, and that's what I was *trying* to do. :)
I am a freshman in high school and my director just handed me a bass trombone and told me he needs me to play it and I really don’t have any idea how to get a good sound or honestly what the point is. I’m also sick right now so I don’t have the ability to take in the air to play this thing to the full potential I don’t think.
Andon same problem ^^ I'm a freshmen that is just learning how to play the bass, but because of quarantine I don't have a director to teach me, so I'm teaching myself. My directors are wanting us to play our all region stuff for next year, but I can't play lower notes that well. I'm just surfing the internet for good tips 😅
@@shahahayla bruh I tought myself but I got to play bass bone sophomore year during quarantine but I never got to use it at school it was a single trigger but it was still fun. I play tenor and baritone this year now, trombone section leader got the bass bone...I'm a junior now and ima get a job after marching season so I can get a double trigger. It's gonna be a crazy senior year two bass bones at football games😤🤟
which mouthpiece do you play ??? GRIEGO ... and model
What is the difference between peddle F on a F tenor trombone and the same note on a single trigger bass? As far as air and embouchure.
I mean I played single trigger for a year does that count?
I play large bore tenor and I want to play bass but I’m a 8th grade
Do you think it's neccesary to switch as soon as possible? Or develop as a tenor player and switch when I am a college student
Good question! I think that you should switch whenever you feel like making the switch. Whether you play tenor or bass, you will still want to develop similar fundaments, including the upper and lower registers, so which vehicle you choose to do so is up to you! There’s the advantage that more repertoire exists for tenor, but of course bass trombonists can use the same rep as written, or in different clefs/keys. Whichever you choose, remember that all of your technical work is to accomplish a musical goal. And good luck!
Are you Paul’s father?
Is doubling in Alto also common?
Tenor/Alto doubling is very common as pure alto players don't exist. Very few double 3 trombones and almost nobody double 4 or more instruments
@@eyvindjr idk what we talkin bout but I play tenor bone, baritone, euphonium, single trigger bass bone, and I'm learning sousaphone. Next I gotta get double trigger. I'm mainly a bone player but I'm practicing different instruments just to learn them.😅
@@gametexplore8137 I was talking about a professional level. Even the very best multi instrumentalists start having weak spots with 3 or more instruments compared to specialists
@@eyvindjr yeah but I don't care about that I just think it's fun learning many instruments I'm still 15.
@@gametexplore8137 Please be careful, though! If you plan on studying music performance, I think it would be wise to start narrowing it down to 2 already, eventually auditioning only with 1. I know examples of people getting into college on both trombone and euphonium, but they are very rare!
Bass trombone not only requires a much bigger mouthpiece, it requires dedicated embouchure conditioning to adapt to the bigger mpc. Without that conditioning (arpeggios, scales, octaves) you don't have a focused centered sound. I don't hear this nearly enough. Instead, I hear videos like this, and wannabe bass trombonists who sound awful.
Why don't you drop your trombone and brake it, like you wanted Trent Hamilton to do