For those of you who aren't that familiar with the trombone, I'm eagerly curious to know if I got my points across in an understandable and cohesive manner. The thumbnail of this video will get updated sometime early next week.
In answer to this request for feedback: The information is technical (good), detailed and thorough. Thanks. The robot voice reading this is not pleasant to listen to! I proudly play a Yamaha YSL 641 tenor ... not exactly in the same league as the other horns mentioned here, but I do love it😊
Loved this. I am a former bass trombone player. I had a number of lessons with Ed Kleinhammer in 1964 and 1965, and I traveled with him to the Holton factory to select my own 169 off the assembly line in August 1965. That horn was stolen from me about three years later, but the one I replaced it with (another 169) was actually a bit better horn, so it worked out. It was fun being able to be with Kleinhammer on occasion during this historical period.
That's amazing! I'm about to start playing the bass trombone once it's finished being made. I've been looking at the history of them so I understand how it works
I just rewatched this. I'm now 80 years old, but about a month ago, after 40 years of not playing the trombone (literally and truthfully), I just bought myself a reconditioned Blessing double valve (Bb - F - Gb - D) instrument with the second valve on the side, i.e. played with the 4th finger (piano numbering). I've never played an instrument like this, so I'm not trying to figure out where all the low notes are and how to even hold the thing! To my surprise, after just a couple of days, my ability to play and sound started to recover. I've played this beast every day for about a month. I don't have the breath or embouchure to ever be good on it again, but reviewing this history, which I'd watched about a year ago, served to clear up some mysteries about how it all works.
ua-cam.com/users/Egbert1957 Here is a KINGduo Gravis Silversonic 6b from 1976, which belonged to my father (in the film) and is now played by me, even though operating the valve pedals is painful. In the video contribution, the KING company is completely excluded.
I switched from the Bb/F/Gb/D tuning to Bb/F/G/Eb, learning it from Mark Lusk in 1983 and made the conversion over the summer of '83 between undergrad and grad school. With this system I use the G valve alone much more than the F valve, and like the Bollinger system it creates many more alternate slide/valve position options. In short I was sold on the "Eb" system and never went back!
Same. My teacher was Mark's first grad student at Penn State and when I picked up the bass in 1999, he had me cut down my Gb valve. Then I see Blair at ETW telling us about this, I was like "Hey! I've been doing this since the 90's!"
In 1972 as I went off to college I bought a Conn 62H then 20 years later sold that and got a 112H that I still use today. This video confirmed some of what I already knew. I'm hoping I don't have nightmares about that four valve horn! (Bass trombone is my double - I play on a five valve CC Hirschbrunner)
TM Koeder wasn’t just a brass repairman, he used to work for Holton, so we was very familiar with making brass instruments. I used to own a TM Koeder Tuba.
You have to talk more about the German engenering Bass trombone. In Germany you had 5 sizes of trombone and the independent valve system was included so much earlyer than in the US. Also you have a complet different Disign and airflow on a real German trombone.
I owned a 50B2 back in the 80s that was Bb/F/Eb and came with an extra tuning slide that you could swap for the Eb valve slide (a longer one), making it Bb/F/D.
I own and play an Olds S-23, although I've had it retrofitted with independent valves. Mine was built in 1970, but I had no idea at the time that I made the purchase that the design dates back to the late '30s. I've wondered since then why it was the case that the players mentioned in this video felt it necessary to go to the manufacturers they knew and request that they develop a double-valve bass trombone from scratch rather than simply purchase one from Olds. Well, since one thing every version of their stories have in common is that none of them mention Olds at all, it's entirely possible that it was a question of marketing - if Olds was making zero effort to inform players east of the Rockies that they offered a double-valve instrument, then those players had no way of knowing that the thing they were looking for was already available. But even if they did know, it's also entirely possible that the Olds would not have suited their needs. With the exception of the 10" bell, the S-23 has dimensions which are considerably smaller than the typical modern bass trombone. This makes it perfect for big band and fitting in with a section of small-bore tenors, but very difficult to blend with a section of modern large-bore tenors and a 6/4 tuba.
Bollinger tuning isn’t G and E-flat, it’s F and G quarter flat, which helps reduce the amount of adjusting positions in an out of the valves. All modern bass trombones have F as their first valve, and the second valve is variable in G, G-flat, or the Bollinger G quarter-flat. Dependent models are still made, but independent with G-flat second valve is most popular
They should have just made a trombone with a longer slide with the handle like a G bass trombone so you can reach the low B without needing a second trigger.
But then in order to keep it in Bb you'd have to take tubing from the bell section. This leaves you with either a really unbalanced horn or a counterweight, at which point you have the extra weight anyway and key as well make some use of it with a 2nd trigger instead of the counterweight. I suppose something like this could maybe be feasible with a carbon fiber slide, but it would still be ergonomically very different from any other bass trombone as you'd have to relearn muscle memory for all the positions because of the handle and all just for 1 extra note.
@@TheTromboneChannel Thumbnail is great, as it is a commonly used contemporary bass trombone that most people will recognize. I just wish Bach Thought out the wrap design differently
@@okyouknowwhat i agree it looks "boring" but as far as the average viewer goes - they will most likely understand that one over others. plus, I had to limit my options to a rotary valve as this period of history predates the thayer valve, let alone, all the others.
For those of you who aren't that familiar with the trombone, I'm eagerly curious to know if I got my points across in an understandable and cohesive manner.
The thumbnail of this video will get updated sometime early next week.
In answer to this request for feedback: The information is technical (good), detailed and thorough. Thanks. The robot voice reading this is not pleasant to listen to! I proudly play a Yamaha YSL 641 tenor ... not exactly in the same league as the other horns mentioned here, but I do love it😊
Loved this. I am a former bass trombone player. I had a number of lessons with Ed Kleinhammer in 1964 and 1965, and I traveled with him to the Holton factory to select my own 169 off the assembly line in August 1965. That horn was stolen from me about three years later, but the one I replaced it with (another 169) was actually a bit better horn, so it worked out. It was fun being able to be with Kleinhammer on occasion during this historical period.
That's amazing! I'm about to start playing the bass trombone once it's finished being made. I've been looking at the history of them so I understand how it works
I just rewatched this. I'm now 80 years old, but about a month ago, after 40 years of not playing the trombone (literally and truthfully), I just bought myself a reconditioned Blessing double valve (Bb - F - Gb - D) instrument with the second valve on the side, i.e. played with the 4th finger (piano numbering). I've never played an instrument like this, so I'm not trying to figure out where all the low notes are and how to even hold the thing! To my surprise, after just a couple of days, my ability to play and sound started to recover. I've played this beast every day for about a month. I don't have the breath or embouchure to ever be good on it again, but reviewing this history, which I'd watched about a year ago, served to clear up some mysteries about how it all works.
In 1970 I got a used Reynolds Stereophonic. In 1976 I moved to a King Duo Gravis 6B and never looked back. Played professionally until 2010.
ua-cam.com/users/Egbert1957
Here is a KINGduo Gravis Silversonic 6b from 1976, which belonged to my father (in the film) and is now played by me, even though operating the valve pedals is painful. In the video contribution, the KING company is completely excluded.
I switched from the Bb/F/Gb/D tuning to Bb/F/G/Eb, learning it from Mark Lusk in 1983 and made the conversion over the summer of '83 between undergrad and grad school. With this system I use the G valve alone much more than the F valve, and like the Bollinger system it creates many more alternate slide/valve position options. In short I was sold on the "Eb" system and never went back!
Same. My teacher was Mark's first grad student at Penn State and when I picked up the bass in 1999, he had me cut down my Gb valve. Then I see Blair at ETW telling us about this, I was like "Hey! I've been doing this since the 90's!"
In 1972 as I went off to college I bought a Conn 62H then 20 years later sold that and got a 112H that I still use today. This video confirmed some of what I already knew. I'm hoping I don't have nightmares about that four valve horn! (Bass trombone is my double - I play on a five valve CC Hirschbrunner)
TM Koeder wasn’t just a brass repairman, he used to work for Holton, so we was very familiar with making brass instruments. I used to own a TM Koeder Tuba.
This channel is underrated, great content :D
Thanks!
I started private lessons in Dec 1970 and have seriously played trombone since. Now there is "The Trombone Channel" on You Tube. Yay!
I still have my Olds s24G. Love the Bb/F/G/Eb setting. Although you can switch it to Bb/F/Gb/D by changing the tuning slides of the valves.
You have to talk more about the German engenering Bass trombone. In Germany you had 5 sizes of trombone and the independent valve system was included so much earlyer than in the US. Also you have a complet different Disign and airflow on a real German trombone.
Another great video! Keep up the great work!
I couldn't imagine that the modern bass trombone was so recent ...
I had a Kleinhammer Holton double rotor in 1974. You could take the second rotor off. With the D slide added it was pretty cool looking.
I owned a 50B2 back in the 80s that was Bb/F/Eb and came with an extra tuning slide that you could swap for the Eb valve slide (a longer one), making it Bb/F/D.
Great video! Thanks
I own and play an Olds S-23, although I've had it retrofitted with independent valves. Mine was built in 1970, but I had no idea at the time that I made the purchase that the design dates back to the late '30s. I've wondered since then why it was the case that the players mentioned in this video felt it necessary to go to the manufacturers they knew and request that they develop a double-valve bass trombone from scratch rather than simply purchase one from Olds. Well, since one thing every version of their stories have in common is that none of them mention Olds at all, it's entirely possible that it was a question of marketing - if Olds was making zero effort to inform players east of the Rockies that they offered a double-valve instrument, then those players had no way of knowing that the thing they were looking for was already available. But even if they did know, it's also entirely possible that the Olds would not have suited their needs. With the exception of the 10" bell, the S-23 has dimensions which are considerably smaller than the typical modern bass trombone. This makes it perfect for big band and fitting in with a section of small-bore tenors, but very difficult to blend with a section of modern large-bore tenors and a 6/4 tuba.
4:08 such a nice trombone
I have a double valve holton tr181 from the 70's its beautiful
You omitted the Holton TR 180 with the Glanz dependent Eb trigger in 1975
Bollinger tuning isn’t G and E-flat, it’s F and G quarter flat, which helps reduce the amount of adjusting positions in an out of the valves. All modern bass trombones have F as their first valve, and the second valve is variable in G, G-flat, or the Bollinger G quarter-flat. Dependent models are still made, but independent with G-flat second valve is most popular
What about the Conn 62H & 73H from the late sixties? I had a 73H that was built in 1969.
Interesting, I did not see any mention of that from Doug's Article
Another way to get pedal B natural is to extend your F trigger tuning slide in E natural.
Who knew? Thank you for your teaching.
Great report. Fast!!!!!!
great content. keep it going…
Absolutely will!
Just curious, what is the piece that plays at part 7? It sounds familiar but I can’t figure out what it was called.
I was just looking at a double valve bass trombone and wondering how they worked and this was in my recommended💀
Did the video explain it well?
オフセットは古いタイプなのでしょうか？
not sure what you mean by that
I feel validated
I tune my single attachment to E for the B-natural.
🤨
They should have just made a trombone with a longer slide with the handle like a G bass trombone so you can reach the low B without needing a second trigger.
But then in order to keep it in Bb you'd have to take tubing from the bell section. This leaves you with either a really unbalanced horn or a counterweight, at which point you have the extra weight anyway and key as well make some use of it with a 2nd trigger instead of the counterweight.
I suppose something like this could maybe be feasible with a carbon fiber slide, but it would still be ergonomically very different from any other bass trombone as you'd have to relearn muscle memory for all the positions because of the handle and all just for 1 extra note.
So complicated!
I tried to explain it as best I could.
I play clarinet
I think i have a valve in my mouth cuz i can play low C
Geul
Who else thinks that the 50B30 is the ugliest trombone ever made?
shall I change the thumbnail?
@@TheTromboneChannel Thumbnail is great, as it is a commonly used contemporary bass trombone that most people will recognize. I just wish Bach Thought out the wrap design differently
@@okyouknowwhat i agree it looks "boring" but as far as the average viewer goes - they will most likely understand that one over others. plus, I had to limit my options to a rotary valve as this period of history predates the thayer valve, let alone, all the others.
@@okyouknowwhat I have Bach bass bone with two valves; is one with an open wrap. Wish it was better balanced; 10.5" bell.-
10:14 - !!!