Grenadier vs Patrol vs LC300 vs Defender - Part 4, Ground Clearance
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- Опубліковано 16 гру 2023
- #grenadier #patrol #defender #lc300
Which of these four has the best ground clearance and what difference will it make on a rutted climb?
Part 1 Intro, suspension, climbs • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
Part 2 Slow Race; crawl ratios, descents • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 3 Slippery Climb • Grenadier, Defender, P...
Part 4 Clearance Climb • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 5 Momentum • Grenadier vs Patrol vs...
Part 6 The C/D Problem on Hills • The Centre Diff On Hil...
Part 7 Lockers vs BTC • 4X4 Tourers Offroad: G...
Post questions as comments!
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The swaybar point isn't well understood, so this should clear it up ua-cam.com/video/sxvuO77wicw/v-deo.html
Back in my day Patrol was definitely the king of off-road.
Excellent series, really enjoyed all of them and learnt something new and interesting from each episode.
Excellent video Rob, good to see the Datsun come out on top.😊
I believe you have a lot of restrictions on tire size. Here in Mexico, the solution is taller tires.
Oh yeah totally. But a lot of other places complain about how it drives or whatever. I live in North America and any serious off-roader has at least 2 in larger tires. At least. And it's not for looks it's because the damn thing does better
@@ronaldrrootiii6040this is based off stock
Old defender and discos are better as they have offset pumpkins on both axles. Or better still, try a pinzgauer with portal axles and lockers.
Video is helpful, but it really only presents half the picture. Ground clearance over rocks and other jagged terrain is very different. "Low" ground clearance solid axles actually provide greater, more predictable, and much safer ground clearance because they increase the ground clearance of the whole chassis and driveline as they articulate over rocks, whereas independent suspension will actually LOSE clearance between the chassis and the ground, as the wheel articulates upward INDEPENDENT of the rest of the vehicle.
Robert starts this series with an excellent comparison of systems: ua-cam.com/video/sz5BgEnU4cM/v-deo.htmlsi=XmQK1n9icA4nXmT6
Navigating ruts is arguably a more common scenario than rock crawling, in which case you need conveniently placed rocks to experience the solid axle cantilever effect. It happens, but I find it more often the case that larger rocks pass under the central area where one prays they miss the pumpkin.
@@erictyrrell3560 I fitted an after-market diff guard to the front of my classic Defender the pumpkins of which front and rear are sensibly offset from the centre to the same side. With the new Defender I don't have to worry about puncturing the diff!
@@erictyrrell3560 yup, where you live and 4 wheel definitely changes which setup is most useful. For steep climbs on hard, "grippy" surfaces (i.e. when there is lots of potential for shockloading a driveline), rocky terrain or trails with lots undergrowth n jagged sticks waiting to rip a CV boot, solid axle probably gets the nod. For deep mud or sand, or heavily rutted trails like you mentioned, IFS is generally going to get you further.
@@JTuggy_MissionFrmGlobalMarginsnot just IFS but IRS also. You want fully independent suspension. We all know independent is better than Live Axles in most situations and certainly on road.
Hard life ahead for Ineos Grenadier steering dampners
I had been hanging off this video released. Perfect and it is what I practice.
How so?
@L2SFBC Hi Robert, I did write a reply, not sure where reply went so I will re reply.
I advocate leaving BTC on for my MY 18 Isuzu Dmax. It's ESC has the three features as you described. Selecting Low Range turns off ESC feature and engine retardation feature but the third aspect of spinning wheel BTC remains operational unless you hold in the ESC button for several seconds.
I have linked your video to a post of mine so 30,000 plus members can better understand their ESC and see how the spinning wheel BTC feature is their friend, not enemy in sand. So misunderstood in my group of owners and I read it all the time to turn off ESC by pushing button for several seconds for sand and other off road conditions. Wrong advice from those that do not understand ESC. You explain and demonstrate what I post up re this aspect of off road driving. Thanks.
Thanks Steve I have tested ISUZUS and that is exactly what I have found too.
Great video! well done
Thank you very much!
Not that I own or have ever owned a 4wd with swaybar disconnects, however it was good to learn about the effect to the diff clearance when in use and not.Thanks for sharing. Cheers
Glad it was helpful!
great vid as usual mate. I got an idea that might help compare marks on the ground between different vehicles. get some surveyor marker spray paint. spray on the low point of the vehicle. they will be left on the track exactly when any part starts touching. And they should be very easy to rinse off
I meant to bring cones but forgot
Every generation since the 80-series scarified approach/departure angles and ground clearance.
I remember the 80-series measuring from the rear diff nearly 11 inches.
That was excellent but I would have liked to see what happened when the Defender's air suspension was jacked up to its highest setting as it could have rivalled the Patrol.
It was as high as it could go manually
That's interesting.
I remember back in the 80's when we first started to see IFS in the 4 cylinder 4X4's,
and they where getting hung up on everything,
but now the new designs are working well.
Everyone goes on about IFS. That’s only half the picture. You want IRS also. Fully independent is where it’s at.
@@jerrymyahzcat There's a place in the NT we call Lost City and it is only passable with Live Axles with a big stroke 6 in first low NO throttle, like a HJ45.
Once we took the bonnet off to literally watch the fan come to an almost complete stop as the axles would twist over each bolder and they are like square bollards.
Any other way and you would be breaking springs control rods and ripping tires open,
Yeah anything other than the old 7.50/16's and it gets very expensive,
plus you would be very sore from the rodeo of a ride.
It takes about 20 minutes to go about 100 meters, most walk it as the driver goes solo as every one bumps their head at least once. As stated, drop out's are situational dependent.
yes and the early '80s IFS had no electronics...
@@L2SFBC Like I said They are very different now.
To compare the capabilities it is needed to put the same type of tyres on them! Tyres making a big difference ag the off-road capacity
Well done as usual 👏🏼
Shall we wait for part 5??!
It will be posted soon...
@@L2SFBC
Thanks 👍🏽
Thanks, that demonstration provided a lot of insight Robert. Good point rear sway bar disconnect too.
I wonder if there are any unmodified (factory standard) 4x4's that could clear that track?
Unimog 😂
@@zoranpl Bingo! Perhaps an OKA too?
@@BenMitroI haven’t thought about OKAs for a bit! Last time I saw one was in a Colesworths car park. It looks a little incongruous in suburbia 😂
@@davespanksalot8413 👍 I heard they have started making them again...not sure though.
They have restarted, I have a video interview with the MD on this channel.
First class demo, Robert. I think that was a fair comparison and your conclusions re the different vehicles are valid - the Patrol (again, shame we can't get a UK version) was notably impressive. But, I'd just add that in soft ruts (which the UK has a lot of!), independent suspension vehicles tend to badly drag and ground out on their suspension's lower swing arm. The drag of these is substantial (there being 4 of 'em) and their surface area is wide. Once they ground, the wheel cannot get traction. Like the Defender here, my Disco had good (static!) central clearance, good traction but would stop dead in soft conditions where the wheels cut a rut. My Grenadier has less good traction and lower central clearance (theoretical), but will plough through regardless. 'Old' Defender's high clearance is normally limited by poor traction. But of course they all ground out in very soft conditions - tractor time!
Yes indeed, the type of ground clearance is important, depends on arm length and so on. I have a photo somewhere which I forgot to include of a Defender balanced on its rear diff, and another of an Everest in the same situation. I've not really found the soft-ruts problem you talk about in Australia despite driving in mud in my D3 and other cars, but I do see your point.
Interesting - I know you guys do get the odd bit of rain! But yes, I got stuck several times like that with Disco 5. Absolute Achillies' heel in soft, unpredictable field conditions if a wheel spun. By the look, Nissan's lower arm has better clearance than LR's. Also, I think the consistent clearance in fixed- axle vehicles is easier to manage/predict. But, horses for courses..!@@L2SFBC
Perhaps a good example is IFS vehicles. They tend to get hung up on the rear diff...the front tends to pass over whatever is in the way. The arms aren't a problem, but they are quite short. So it's all design-dependent as you say.
Awesome video!
I totally agree that you should not always disconnect your sway bar. For a lot of the Jeep gladiators I would not recommend disconnecting the sway bar unless they run out of traction which they almost never will.
It will run out of traction at a similar place as all other vehicles as it's a matter of tires and surface conditions.
@@paulelledge8977 it's not just tires and surface . A longer vehicle is at a different angle than a shorter vehicle on the same obstacle. This is why they account for wheelbase in RTI calculations. So as long as it has ground clearance , longer vehicles would actually be better from a traction perspective..and yes... longer vehicles have a lower probability of good functional ground clearance compared to a shorter wheelbase vehicle at the same ride height .... However , the longer (and wider) vehicles are less traction distressed , all things being equal because the same obstacle won't tilt a longer and or wider vehicle as much. Longer vehicles have a higher probability of having all tires on the ground. Less flex is required of a longer vehicle in order to maintain traction. This is why I believe that the gladiator on 40s probably has the best traction of any vehicle on the planet. I can't think of another vehicle with that much flex AND that much wheel base that can also fit huge tires. A gladiator on 37s/ 40s is unstoppable from a traction perspective IMHO.
I spent ages looking for my sway bar. Turns out my truck doesn’t have any.
@@off-roadingexplained8417 As we have seen in many of these videos, it depends on the obstacle. While a longer wheelbase may help on some obstacles, a shorter wheelbase may help in others. If it's just about wheelbase and tire size I guess a Ford f350 on 44's would have considerably better traction. But, we both know, even excluding that it can be terrain dependent, traction is more than just wheelbase and tire size. As the videos point out, sometimes IS is better than solid axel, other times not. Sometimes a shorter wheelbase can be better, brake traction control can play a huge part in traction and I don't think anyone would argue the Gladiator has the best BTC out there.
To sum up, there is probably not one single best vehicle or setup for max traction, but I'm glad you like the gladiator, it's a good rig.
Well put Paul, glad you get this point.
About the sway bar disconnection I agree but only to an extent because I think anyone cool enough to want to disconnect off-road probably already has much larger tires and better ground clearance of the diff from that alone
Video on the way...
🙏❤️ Love from Scotland ❤️🙏
Thanks Robert. You briefly touched on the Defender having extended height setting. The owners manual says "Extended mode is an automatic suspension height setting that raises the vehicle to assist manoeuvring in the event that the vehicle is grounded in severe off-road conditions." and "The instrument panel displays a message and the off-road indicator lamp on the front control panel flashes to confirm the vehicle is in extended mode." This mode is not manually selectable. Was this observed?
No it did not go into Extended. Didn't need to and it often takes a while to be persuaded. A trick is to lower it onto a block of wood. I will be doing an L663 deep dive soonish.
Thanks for the excellent summary Robert. I've certainly triggered extended height in my L663 (D300,110) on several occasions (as I did on my previous Discovery 3 and 4 vehicles -2009 and 2014 respectively). I suspect if you persevered with 4 wheel spinning for another 5-10 seconds you would have trigged extended height. As you know once that happens you then have option of putting your foot on brake and holding the "up" select switch for 5 seconds to trigger super extended (or emergency) height. I look forward to your further reports. @@L2SFBC
I guess if the emergency extended height is invoked then the advice is "go no further so back out because you have reached your limit!" @@davidmunday8820
Yes, I didn't feel it fair to try and trigger Extended mode in that situation, it's borderline abuse for that hill!
It would be great to see this revisited in another video on the same hill. If you’re going to show the features and technology I think it’s interesting to see all of the engineering going into these trucks.
I would love to see a Jeep Rubicon, solid axles and lockers. IFS suspension have less articulation i think.
I followed a new Defender yesterday at Land Rover Experience Scotland and I have to say those lower suspension arms get awfully close to the ground. In deep ruts, I can see those being scraped or damaged quite easily.
It looked to me like this was what brought the Defender to a stop in this video. (the leftmost scraping mark fits the suspension arm and from the shot from below it looks like it made contact.)
They are incredible tough arms, only serious abuse will damage one. ours are marked but not damaged
@@Ardventures Well that's an improvement on the Discovery 3 then, which has cheap pressed steel arms. That vehicle just generally lacks clearance.
@@cameronwood1994 clearance if very good on the air suspension models not on the coil Defenders
@@Ardventures I think you misread my comment. I meant the Discovery 3 doesn't have a huge amount of clearance.
y62❤
Great job again. I don’t completely agree with your argument regarding front sway bar disconnection.
If the sway bar acts on an independent suspension, yeah it can potentially reduce the ground clearance but i the case of solid axle I don’t see why it can reduce it.
Thanks for your job
I'll have to go over this again!
It's because when the sway bar is connected you get less articulation less articulation means a raised wheel a raised wheel means a slightly raised differential. Now I think the likelihood of somebody willing to disconnect their sway bar and be that cool probably already has larger tires anyway so the whole thing is void and you're fine
This guy’s voiceover sounds like he’s explaining a golf tournament. Lol.
So the most ca-able off road grenadier as they called everywhere not even can go as far as proper mummy mall crowler patrol.
I haven’t seen the jeep rubicon in any of these comparisons.
Because it's not there!
The first thing I noticed on my mates inos that front steering linkage looks a bit like a
“grader blade”
But as a Toyota fan the TD Grenadier got some snot..
What's snot mean?
@@L2SFBC snot = go
For the Bronco Raptor this is a easy and beautiful trip
How can you do a good comparison and even measure diff height when one of the vehicles has larger tires and a high clearance winch bumper mounted.
because I noted that and stated the difference it made...
@@L2SFBC I get that it is very difficult to get different unmodified vehicle's for such a comparison. And i do like all the testing you guys do and you mentioned the modification. But true tire sizes between manufacturers differ. Some times there is more then half a inch height difference within the same size range. So just measuring and subtracting the assumed size difference is half work. It would cancel out when you have all vehicle's fully stock or on the same brand and type tires. I still like to watch what you guys do.
The ground clearance under independent suspension changes as the suspension compresses. That wont happen on a live axle which will always have the same clearance no matter how much you compress the suspension.
See video 1 for that explanation
Not exactly true.
True if IDS is on coils but not on air suspension
So, to fix the problems encountered, you need bigger tyres and protection for the lowest part of the vehicle.
Exactly LOL and then you'll get a die-hard leave it Factory kind of people crying their eyes out
You miss the point of the whole exercise....start at the beginning. You forgot to suggest modifying these vehicles with portal axles...really!
I now understand what makes the unimog so superior,its because its diff is very high
That's one reason
How much ground clearance does the patrol loose when fully loaded
Not much. Especially if your patrol has hbmc system. Its a pity nissan doesn't offer updated patrol mid east spec. If its ever offered in australia then its game over for lc 300. It will outsell it and you will be surprised thats its even luxurious from the inside. Like a truck.
Live axles were once described as part of a vehicle drive system use with independent suspension. A drive axle encased in an axel housings was never referred to as being live. The turm "live" refers to any open machinical rotating element. An example would be a propeller or drive shaft. Given that wheels have supervision and are powered, the drive axle weight must be part of the suspension mass. Any reference being part the suspension mass is a misuse of the term. As used in everyday use refers to open rotating danger, opposite to passive or safe. Another example of the term "the explosive is live." in a state of danger. Cheers
Fair points; but the term 'live axle' has now come to mean solid or beam axle, so I'm going with the flow...
@L2SFBC Thanks, Robert, for your reply. I am sorry to say your answer was predicted. Your reporting is respected for being consistently on point, backed by facts and figures. The thing about a fair point is that it's correct. This live axle nonsense has been around for about twenty years, perpetuated by auto journalists who should know better. This anomaly is begging to be addressed by some journalistic leadership. I await your video. Cheers
A 'fair point' is correct but other points can be correct as well. There are many terms which aren't quite correct; recent discussion on mass, weight, and load for example. Or, talking of force in kilograms as opposed to newtons. I do struggle with the balance between technical accuracy and using terms people understand even if the terms are incorrect. Thanks.
@L2SFBC I hear you. This is exactly my point when repeated authoritative misinformation becomes accepted by the ignorant. This is a great chance for L2SFBC to open up the discussion in the coming new year. Cheers
As a LC300 owner the first thing I did was lift the car & put larger / taller tires on.
definitely needs it!
@@L2SFBC With the front ARB bar it's given a better approach angle as well but I still have to do something about departure.
Pay and pay again rewards Toyota for poor form.
Hi Robert, just on your initial audio voiceover, it sounds like you’re speaking too close to the microphone.
noted thanks
@@L2SFBCgreat videos as ever! 👏🏻
Robert, I think a bit more explanation is required about the swaybar disconnect. The way I look at it with regards ground clearance and how far the vehicle would progress on your test tract it would make no difference. The relative position of the tyre contact patch to the diff low point does not change with the swaybar connected or not. I think you may have introduced something that is not strictly correct. Perhaps a bit more explanation will clear it up.
No, what I've said is correct - ie that sometimes NOT disconnecting the swaybar is better - I've proven it in practice, but yes maybe not clear as if you didn't get it, others won't either so I'll need to do a better job later. The relative location of the diff DOES change with the swaybar in and out; with it out the diff can swing lower, reducing clearance.
The position of the wheels relative to the diff do not change. It is a solid axle and the sway bar does not affect that.
No, the position of the diff relative to the ground, not the wheel.
You need the Jeep wrangler 392, Gran Cherokee Trailhawk V8.
Getting the impression this guy is sponsored by Toyota
Why's that?
Why didn't you put the 2023 Nissan patrol warrior up against the new 300 series
Independent from ground clearance - I will never take an offroad car with air suspension into a remote area. If there is the slightest issue with the air suspension, the car becomes stuck and cannot be moved any more. Even when it only enters an "emergency mode", actual offroad capabilities are completely lost. I have seen too many cars with failed air suspension. In fact, two of them had too be given up because towing was not possible and a flatbed could not be brought tens or hundreds of kilometers into the desert or the mountains. The second disqualifying criterion is rim/wheel size. 16" or 17" rims are a requirement. 18" is borderline. Anything beyond 18" is not acceptable as the tire sidewalls become too narrow, putting the tire and the rim at serious risk. In sand, deflating such tires has negligible effect making the vehicle much more prone to get stuck.
I see your points and tend to agree. I think it stupid that Land Rover fit such big rims. Check out TuffAnt who make 18s for Land Rovers. I'm glad you understand the differnece between remote-area capability and offroad ability.
Land Rover has employed air suspension in its vehicles for about two decades. In Australia, these vehicles have been driven to remote areas and returned without issues. Providing the vehicle is maintained and inspected before traveling and critical spares are carried the risk of stranding is no greater than any other vehicle equally prepared. The air suspension on a Defender traveling in the outback was repaired with super glue!
Land Rover supply 18" steel wheels, but only fit certain models, there are companies supplying calliper conversions@@L2SFBC
So far having watched this series 1-4 it looks like Ineos got to a point with their ABS/ESC/BTC programming and just said "You know what, if we just put lockers both ends we won't need this bruv" and just gave up...
The other three are miles better when unlocked which probably makes them a little easier to live with on moderate tracks. I feel the Ineos owner will be reaching for locker switches much earlier than the other three? Or even locking front/rear/both before hitting anything that looks difficult just to avoid unnessary drama
Yes I think that's a reasonable guess. I disagree with that approach because:
a) not all Grenadiers have lockers
b) you don't always want to use them as sometimes they're not the best option compared to BTC
@L2SFBC possibly re spec however (and knowing the IG spec I have saved for later) I think initial first owner spec will always have lockers if they were knowing it'd spend a decent part of its life offroad.
Second, third, subsequent owners of vehicles may not be so lucky.
In these cases the IG BTC will leave them wanting for sure.
I am wondering,why are you folks don't activate extended mode in Defender in this particular situation ????This mode has been designed for such of cases
It was as high as it would go manually
@@L2SFBC
So it means offroad heght 1 ?
After that mode you got 3 more height levels :offroad height 2,extended mode and finally super extended mode,all what you need to do is read the manuals for that car ,wich are you guys planning to get on offroad
I thought the Defender can be lifted even higher by engaging extended mode (I know the Discovery 4 can). If it can be lifted even higher then I am not sure why the test was not done in extended mode. The feature is there in the car and not a modification.
Extended mode is not manual it is automatic only.
I agree but it is there and will kick in when the car bottoms out. I am going to make a stupid example, it is almost like comparing a car with traction control and one without and saying you will disregard traction control because it is not user user selectable (I know it is, this is an example). It is not really fair. The Defender would have gone further up using a standard feature of the car
Well it didn't kick in so wasn't used. It needs quite a bit to get it into extended mode.
Okay. Now we are onto something.
Nissan patrol and Mitsubishi pajero
diff clearance
So the conclusion of this video is: lift and bigger tires with more aggressive pattern… unheard of 😂
:-)
Vehicles with a lift and bigger tyres with more aggressive pattern created those ruts so as things escalate eventually everyone will lose the clearance battle and the tracks will be closed to everyone...touch the ground lightly!
The rear arm suspension bolts of the defender
are ridiculous...
How's your spring hangers?
Here in rural Africa, live suspension is a big NO NO !!!!! Independent suspension is the new moto...
Менеджер Антон! 🙈
Что за прокладка сидит между рулём и сидением 😂
"ground clearance" is the biggest marketing fake to sell those independent air suspension rigs as "superior offroaders", which they are not. Raising your air suspension kills its articulation/flex/travel, there are some cases where it could help but even more cases where it's really a downside. And if you have solid axles your "clearance" means nothing - it's as high as your tires size and in reality your lowest point of diff pumpkin is not the limit, it may plow the soil or you may steer it away from obstacles, whereas independent "clearance" is a hard-stop for sure. In the decades old debate solid axles vs independent it's been proven time and time again - solid axles win.
Like the sway disconnects, one should raise the suspension when ground clearance if the limiting factor. If it’s traction, then it should be lowered. It’s nice to have the option. I’m still not a fan of air suspension for its complexity and maintenance costs though.
To be fair the argument is that Fully Independent wins.
exactly, you have the option of up or down.
Watches a video where independent clearly wins. Goes straight to the comments to say solid is better giving no evidence. Genius.
Yep...
Why didn’t you show the front view of the Defender?
Also - Both the Defender and Y62 weren’t driven until they ran out of clearance as you said they all would be at the start. Both of them should have been taken further and to be fair the Defender had one more height to raise up to so would have gone the furthest if you hadn’t stifled it.
We know the 300 and Ineos are rubbish and anyone also knows that independent suspension is the best and much preferred over live axles. Takes your proof to show people.
With the sway bar scenario - it’s really neither here or there if you have a decent traction control.
Terrain Response with 3 wheels on the ground will do just as well or better than a disconnected sway bar and a dropped wheel touching the surface (but with almost no weight on it for traction).
The front Defender view was shown? The Defender was at max height but not Extended which it cannot be manually put into, so we didn't use it. Not going to sit there spinning wheels and hope it goes up.
A real 4x4 have two Rigid axles
What about Pinzgauers?
Hummer H1?
Useful? Only I f I want bragging rights down the pub that my £59k urban SUV can climb 6” higher up a rutted skope before we have to walk 😂
Perhaps don't take the test quite that literally? Imagine circumstances in which ground clearance is a problem?
Tanto dinero y ninguno sirve para nada.
That's quite a horrible track not sure who will try to clear that in a stock standard vehicle anyway,that terrain is more suitable for a heavily modified 4x4
Toyota first don't want to disadvantages the over priced stelleto set up rubbish with a chopped track.