Hyprland BANNED from FreeDesktop: Why.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 кві 2024
- 💸💸 Help me contribute to KDE and do these videos: 💸💸
Paypal: paypal.me/niccolove
Patreon: / niccolove
Liberapay: liberapay.com/niccolove
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/niccolove
Stay in the loop: t.me/veggeroblog
My website is nicco.love and if you want to contact me, my telegram handle is [at] veggero.
Using Discord as a communication channel is the real crime here.
2016 it was like this amazing voip tool. More recently, it's turned into a kids' playground with cringe "pay to customize" options
Why does a FOSS project need to have a discord in the first place? It's such an horrible platform for a public community. I miss the days where "drama" was a Linus Torvalds rant on kernel mailing lists.
@benoitrousseau4137 because Discord has been successful at providing "off-topic" chats within the same dev space, typically used when devel chat dries up. I agree, it's not very special
i think literal hate crimes are more severe of a concern than using a bit of crappy proprietary chat app, but sure, you do you
@@jannuarytrashAs a part of the LGBTQ community myself, calling everything a hate crime is incredibly damaging. While purposefully misgendering is definitely not okay, calling that a hate crime isn't either, as it waters down the term and makes those who actually undergo violence based on sexuality or gender identity seem like they are lying.
This is informative, and unfortunate
-Louis Rossmann
laugh laugh chuckle laugh @@lenrik_
@@lenrik_ Ah, another bot account that says random wild shit about the dude.
@@lenrik_🤣🤣 what do you mean?
Talking about intolerable Discords.
@@lenrik_ I believe a politician must be honest and serving their electorate, but that's politphobic.
It's a shame that it's turned out this way. Community moderation absolutely matters when collaborating on software.
As a person that use Hyprland and was around that Discord I just think it boils down to two things : Using Discord and the too young age of the people of BOTH SIDES.
Yes, Vaxerski and his goons end up on the wrong side because they are the biggots, I'm not arguing against that.
But the Hyprland "core" community, which were/are mainly teenage shut-ins, deserved a bit more pedagogy IMO. They were quite young linux enthusiasts that built a social community around what should have just been a development cooperation hub and were exposed to tough issues to handle (especially at their age), issues brought up by people that frankly critically failed at applying before-mentioned pedagogy...
Add the elitist toxicity of a group of young talented dev's and god-only-knows what kind of previous culture they might have.
They were progressively ostracized over the last two years and I don't think it helps.
Vaxerski specifically needed someone more mature and socially skilled to handle the community management work and definitely also teach him a thing or two about how to handle other's personal choices, but I don't think any of the critical attention and partial explanation to the issues will help making him change in anyway.
And that's sad because Hyprwm is an amazing suite of software and Vaxerski a very very talented programmer.
every time i see someone talk about people being "too soft" they always end up crying about being excluded from spaces for toxicity
Every time I see someone promote inclusion, it's to exclude people who don't want to comply with arbitrary woke rituals and compulsory speech rules.
The only thing that bothers me about this is the moderator changing the user's pronouns. It is fine to say we would not have a code of conduct because it is too much work. But changing someone's pronoun is an active action to offend people.
forcing your worldview where pronouns are a thing on others is also an active action to offend people, people do it to extract validation. fundamentally, this culture war has no business in development of open source projects, it's completely orthogonal and needs to be aggressively out of scope. there are prominent/productive project leaders/major contributors who are trans and i'll call them what they like as a thank you. very non-special snowflakes showing up to projects, contributing nowt and wasting everyone's time with out of scope culture war issues need to bugger off, it's just another form of spam
@@paulie-g yikes
@@paulie-g "where pronouns are a thing " Dude, do you not know what pronouns are? You've used pronouns in your comment. I don't think you seem to be aware of what they are.
Identity politics ruins everything it touches.
If people really were putting the coding first, they would use people's preferred pronouns and nomenclature and just get on with the programming. Everybody has a preferred name and preferred pronouns, and most people, especially the polite ones, tend to use them, so why make an exception for trans or non binary people?
"everyone can moderate their communities however they want....just not freedesktop apparently"
For those who don't want to use hyprland, ragnar wm is advertised as a xorg alternative for it, or just use whatever you want, you don't have to take away others choices for they use because of what happened in a discord
Here's to the truly 'first' people who were here to see the entire squad, vaxry included, enter the live chat for this one.
Real
Looks like vaxry does indeed have time on his hands and is just to lazy to moderate the server he voluntarily created. Who could have expected this.
@pewpew1010 because you allocate 100% of your time to work and you don't take breaks.
you're right, the robot shall work!
11:42 Ehm, using a company email automatically means that you at least partially represent that company.
If you do non-work related things with a company email, don't (at least not without explicit consent from your employer).
It doesn't matter if your employer agrees or disagrees with whatever you used it for.
You used it for something you were not supposed to and you had a public stance in a way which makes it seems like you represent that company. You can very easily get fired for that.
What if they did have content from the company to use the red hat email from free desktop stuff? I don't think it's fair to just assume that if you that email you're automatically representing the company
@@niccoloveslinux Having consent in this case means that the company is ok with it that you represent them publicly in such cases. That's also why only really few companies allow that (and even with the ones which do, it's quite hard to get the consent).
On the Internet, using a company email has in practice the same meaning as wearing a uniform. Especially because e.g. switching from work to private email is considerably easier than changing what you currently wear.
@@niccoloveslinux im generally on your side here, but no it's in most company handbooks that if you are wearing the logo, using company credentials, or really doing anything with the company stamped on it like that, you are representing the company's values. I am sure HR for redhat would agree with that. I'm also pretty certain the HR for redhat would be completely fine with the usage of a redhat email here.
@@niccoloveslinux I think the consent to use the RedHat email in FDO is effectly the concent that they automatically represent RedHat in FDO.
Ah, so using @gmail means you're representing Gmail. Makes sense.
I think Vaxry is pretty difficult person and I personally wouldn’t want to be on their discord. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to ban someone from a project where they complied to all rules (and had a positive impact on that project by contributing code) because of how they moderate their discord server. That’s like imprisoning someone in Europe because they own guns in America.
I think an individuals bad behavior is something that warrants denial of participation of a project. Not doing so is a good way to loose contributors who don't wish to work with an individual.
@@Nekochukinch It's cancel culture pure and simple. If you let this play out unchecked, you'll end up with totalitarian systems like Soviet Union or North Korea, who pressure, bully and threaten people into compliance - or some precursor of that like the Social Credit system. You don't want to live in such a system.
Thank you for a clear and detailed summary. I really appreciate it
Yup. You're free to be disrespectful. Others are also free to not welcome you. It's as simple.
Sure, but the usual consequence of turning away people on the internet with different opinions (and especially awful ones) is that they will just go somewhere else where less people disagree. It's not like they cease to exist.
@@Djhg2000 China has the final solution to that, unless those Uyghurs get out and relapse into ungoodness.
@@Djhg2000 I don't think the opinions someone holds matters that much, what actually matters more is how you act on those opinions. You're free to think that pronouns other than he/him is stupid and you're free to scream it out loud. However, refusing to act respectfully for those that care is called being an asshole.
Imagine giving a shit about what pronouns anyone calls you in the internet. Some people have no job and it shows
@@paulosouza449 Having a job or not has nothing to do with people adopting ideologies that reject pronouns.
i mean, it's not wrong to say that people are getting weaker, ever since twitter, people are getting more and more offended at meaningless sentences, like bruh
Hope this situation improves
12:06 It says ".. hearsay .." but I heard ".. heresy .." BURN THE WITCH! BURN THE WITCH! 🤣
This video earned you a new patreon subscriber
Thank you so much!
Very good take. But I think the characterization of merely 'unprofessional moderation' needs a strong rebuttal. Allowing participants to harass & insult seems at least unprofessional. A moderator joining the harassment *as a participant* is certainly *very* unprofessional. But Vaxry *acted as moderator* & changed a nickname w/out consent & *that* is abuse of authority. (if Vaxry *really* didn't care he would have just said & done nothing.) I was running Windows & Linux Mint on a lap top that imploded. I've recently purchased a refurbished a Windows machine & am preparing to install Mint again. But it is disheartening to think that in order to flee a big impersonal corporate bully I might be joining a world where *very* personal bullies feel that everyone else should just "man up" in exchange for using their software. I think freedesktop's response was appropriate.
I know you say these are "angry rants that will make me no friends whatsoever". But like, these videos existing actually make me feel much more at home in the Linux community. I can't say it has made me friends with you because I don't know you irl, and I liked your UA-cam channel anyway. But I do think making videos like this does legitimate good. I certainly wouldn't want to see the linux community get all wrapped up in right vs left nonsense, but it is really nice that there's someone with a platform helping make me more at ease here.
I agree
this, esp that historically Linux YTers (Spatry, Bryan Lunduke, Matthew Moore, Luke Smith, DistroTube [tho he may be one of the good ones] and likely Mental Outlaw at this rate) have veered to the right and usually are as a result hateful of LGBT folk. Nice to see someone here that doesn't see our existence as a mere opinion.
I have no idea how someone can type the very reasonable post above and then include something as nonsensical as "right vs left nonsense". Either you understand what ideas and principles you want and don't want in the community, or you are one of those spineless "apolitical" people who think they can exist outside of worldviews, and just have a "welcoming community" without having to deal with the very real right-left divide on society, politics, economy, software and everything else.
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict tbf the core of this isn't merely "left vs right nonsense" like honestly, that should be forgotten of. The reason why it's a problem everywhere and the reason we have "left/right nonsense" is that we only see it as left/right and not look at the core of it all.
The core of the political fighting today is social rights. Conservatives see lgbt people as often unnatural and fake, and they cannot and will not ever agree with the idea that lgbt people should be accepted or at least acknowledged and given basic respect.
Esp when concerning the T, trans people like me. It's such a massive split between those that see people like us as how we are, as trans people and our gender identities, and those that don't. Our existence and the fact cis people can't agree on us is I feel mostly (besides other social justice issues but I feel to a lesser degree because we don't deny cis women or black people exist for example) why there is so much division in politics. There is no gray area when it comes to trans people, either you are against them in some form, or you support them, and any compromise denies at least a group of trans people's identity. We are such a massive fundlemental change to society and its concept of sex/gender and some people can't take it, leading to radicalization and leading to polarization.
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict I don't think extreme polarisation is healthy for societies or healthy for communities. Unity and compromise are important too. The nonsense I was referring to is thinking that the world has to split into two factions. I think free software is super important. And even if someone being transphobic to me or others is a great way to make me lose my respect for them, I don't think that makes them "the enemy" in the push for software freedom. It just makes them an asshole. And in the fight for trans rights, this same person that was my ally in the fight for free software might be working against me. And that's fine. People are complex and deserve to be judged as such.
It is kind of funny to me that the Linux community seems to have both lots of people on the far left and lots of people on the far right. I have no idea why this might be (perhaps people who are socially unpopular are both drawn to tech and angry at society, just a guess)
I think donating your work for a political cause (free software) draws in activist types, and these more likely have strong opinions on other stuff, too.
I think both ends see problems with society and actively want change (be it good or bad), and so they see Linux as the change that they support. Linux is both free as in cheap and free as in no government supervision, so it attracts the types who like that
Linux is open to everyone. I mean I do understand if you expected different kind of people using Linux but it's popular, so many kinds of people use it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Noncomformist operating systems being popular among nonconformists makes total sense to me.
There's also a documented history of especially LGBTQIA individuals being allowed to hold highly skilled positions in otherwise repressive societies, simply due to the country's need.
But in the end, I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of FOSS contributors hold political and personal views that are milquetoast at best... those people just don't draw very much attention.
Left-wing people probably support Linux as a form of social activism and anticapitalism, while right-wing people probably do it for privacy and freedom.
Different goals, one same project.
Vaxry is young and skilled, yet socially inept and raised off 4chan. He is a very unfortunate person to be in charge of such a great project, and I hope he's capable of change.
Dismissing divisive political talking points has nothing to do with being socially inept. We shouldn't be encouraging mental illness and non-scientific "opinions" in software development circles. Sex, like binary, is either Male or Female.
The 4chan vibe kind of puts me off but he's always been decent about rolling with the punches the few times I've interacted with him. There's a certain level of aptitude at which you basically get this. hyprland is an amazing project and... autism is essentially a "hyper" masculine trait -great at abstraction and systematizing but lacking in empathy. I dont think you can control for this sort of thing entirely without excluding the creative forces behind cool projects like this. You can exclude those personalities but they'll just end up making something better elsewhere.
@@skewty Sex is, gender isn't. If you're gonna bring up science - study the subject first. The countless neurology research papers tell me and literally everyone who actually understands science and cares about facts that you are objectively wrong. Not to say that the pronounce thing is a social thing entirely, not related to biological sex nor to neurological concept of gender, but to social one which is separate and exists as a construct of society.
@@skewty Show me 1 (one) scientific organization that agrees with your takes here,
BTW, intersex people don't exist? Lmao. Human sex is bimodal, not binary.
@@skewty The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's sad that these people that enable a false reality don't realize they are doing more harm than good.
Vaxry needs a volunteer Comms/PR person.
I just switched to Hyprland 2 days ago 😭
I'll probably keep using it, but just stay away from the community. Shame about the community though.
Profile picture checks out.
Don't breathe, you're breathing the same air with killers and maniacs.
@@dannygarden2292NAH 😭😭😭
@@dannygarden2292based and gnu
I have one question: Is just Vaxry banned or Hyprland developers in general?
If it's just Vaxry (or people who behave like that in general), I would be ok with that.
If on the other hand it's a developer who didn't behave like that, but behaved respectfully inside and outside of , I wouldn't be a fan of that.
Just Vaxry
It seems being a hyprland user is the same as being a tesla driver: it has good stuff, but the guy behind it has some uncomfortable skeletons that would require a lot of downplaying and mental gymnastics to defend the dude. As a result, you quietly enjoy your product and hope you won't have to justify yourself for giving capital to that person.
at least with hyprland you don't have to give capital, seeing as it's FOSS.
@@sylvercritter true lol
@@sylvercritter social capital still is capital though
@@Don_Day fair enough, though i was mainly talking monetary capital directly. and even then, if you silently use hyprland and without contributing to the project, you're still not contributing any meaningful amount of social capital, especially compared to someone who recommends the compositor.
@@sylvercritter 100% agree just wanted to have fun and added a coin in our debate :p sorry if I'm being rude ^^'
Wow, thank you for posting this, i was pretty much completely unaware of this whole situation, kinda glad that i switched to plasma 6 recently to give it a try since i don't wanna implicitly support that kind of behaviour
These videos are awesome. Keep up the good work!
It sounds as though Vaxry needs to read up on the Paradox of Tolerance, as proposed by Karl Popper. tl;dr - if we're going to have a tolerant society, we must be absolutely and unequivocally intolerant of intolerance. If we allow that kind of thing to take hold, it quickly dominates the discourse.
Wait. But then isn't it basically impossible to have a fully tolerant society?
Btw, I know this is like an internet meme, but this is blatantly not what Karl Popper's point is at all in that chapter, this is basically the opposite. Also he is one of those meme philosophers like Stephen Hicks.
@@wp6007 Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance states exactly what @taragwendolyn says it does, and I'm not sure how anyone could come to your conclusion. He's a very clear writer. I'd encourage anyone curious to look it up. And calling him a "meme philosopher" is absurd; he's inarguably one of the most influential philosophers of science of the 20th century.
Wait.. who defines what is tolerant and what isnt?
@@somnia3423 facts, logic, and reason
This situation finally gave me the kick i needed to try Niri. It has a few big showstoppers for me - in particular, no VRR (or at least, I can't figure out how to turn it on), and it lacks rootless xwayland.
Xwayland rootful mode isn't really that bad though, and in all honesty it's starting to win me over, just having a workspace dedicated to X11.
Hyprland is the first thing that has made me feel I've found the DE/TWM/compositor that I won't want to hop away from. If that's what its community is like, it now makes me question whether I even want to have anything to do with it.
@@ulfrinn8783"sexual preferences" mate, how are pronouns sexual preference? It just shows how you're ignorant of the topic you're trying to discuss.
Why care about it? Just use the tool. You don't have to care about what's going on behind the doors.
@@atemoc Yeah some of us care about things beyond mindless consumption.
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict It's not mindless consumption, it's using what you want because it works the way you want it to. If you really wanted to avoid using anything with a main maintainer with questionable views compared to your own or that have acted in wrong ways, you would not even be using a Linux distribution with any of the GNU utilities at all. Heck, you would not even use most FOSS programs, as the majority of them rely on some dependencies that were developed/contributed to by questionable people depending on your political spectrum and morals.
@@atemoc Everything is comparative. If Linux does not have a FOSS alternative, but among Linux distributions some are developed and maintained by toxic communities - or are owned by for-profit corporations - while others aren't, someone choosing the latter does not mean they are being hypocrites for also not ditching Linux to choose even worse alternatives Like Windows or iOS.
Software projects developed and maintained by communities represent those communities, and vice versa. I'm not telling anyone they have to stop using something because its community has been found to engage in s**ty behaviour, but finding it shocking that someone may decide to look for an alternative when something they use is exclusively represented by terrible people is not serious.
It's just about trying to be good to others as you would expect them to in kind. Sometimes ego gets in the way of seeing other people, especially when their lived experiences aren't very analogous of our own. Just be kind. That's all it takes.
I've been trying to run Hyprland or sway in my samsung zfold5 with termux and termux-x11 (I was told termux-x11 supports wayland) does anyone know any source or any documentation that can help me to set it up?
I don't like Vaxry, but I agree with him on this one; Codes of Conduct apply to conduct in relation to the project in question.
By the way, getting fired over behaviour unrelated to your job is actually frowned upon unless you're _primarily_ a PR representative, and it's plain illegal in many countries.
Not that it matters much, since employment is a poor analogy for participation in freedesktop, but this was a very strange claim to hear from a socialist.
It depends. You can get fired for punching someone, for example. It had nothing to do with your job, and you probably won't even go to jail, but is enough reason to fire you in many countries. Disclaimer: Employee protection laws are all over the place, so can't talk about more than a handful of countries.
Also, even if I am a great developer, if you make your teammates or other employees significantly uncomfortable, you can be fired in the US. Companies ignore that if you are brilliant, but only up to a point.
If we're talking about poor anologies, then this one is best:
> and it's plain illegal in many countries
Homosexuality is also illegal in many countries, it's not an argument in itself.
> Codes of Conduct apply to conduct in relation to the project in question.
I'm sorry, but this is the first time I heard this definition of CoC. Using definition from Cambridge dictionary:
> a set of rules that members of an organization or people with a particular job or position must follow:
- Our journalists are bound by a code of conduct that bars them from political activity.
- The player has been fined two weeks' wages for breaching the club's strict code of conduct.
- Supermarkets could be forced to abide by a new code of conduct to ensure that they do not abuse their buying power at the expense of small suppliers.
- The students probably will be punished for violating the school's code of conduct.
- Racist language is a breach of the police code of conduct.
- A code of conduct relating to the use of software acquired for educational purposes has been adopted by the University.
- All participants at the conference are asked to sign a code of conduct pledging not to engage in disruptive behaviour or hate speech.
@@5fr4ewqyou are correct in the definition of a CoC. But vaxry is not a member of freedesktop, he just contributes occasionally. Therefore it would be unreasonable to say he needs to abide by their CoC at all times. Do I need to abide by hyprlanda CoC at all times because I submitted a PR? NO
@@bencarmichael790 He didn't need to be part of the organization, as he was a member of a community. They had full right to ban him from there.
No, you don't need to abide by someone's CoC by all times, but the thing is - no one said you have to. I bet that if that whole situation wasn't so loud, FDO wouldn't even say a thing.
Not even mentioning, that Vaxry wasn't banned because of transohobia/harassment, they were literally willing to let it go if he took appropriate measures, they way he answered the emails was deal breaker
@@5fr4ewq if you run a repo and I say something you don't like, sure, you can block me from contributing to your repo. The owner of the repo gets to choose who contributes what. That's independent of who you work for, what you believe, etc.
Let's go one step beyond that - I can start a repo and say I won't accept contributions sent by Chinese or Iranian programmers. That's outright discriminatory and a bad move, but I control the repo 🤷♂️
"Words are just words" is highly dismissive. Words are one of the major ways we use to communicate. If they didn't matter - if they didn't carry meaning - why would we use them?
No one denied they carry meaning. Whether you choose to crumble like a little snowflake over them is a choice though. Don't be surprised when people with a functional brain mock your ridiculous ideology.
Words don't hurt if you don't believe them. Truth is we only hurt ourselves when we agree with what was said.
like he said, words can be either a spirit bomb or vegeta's technique
I mean, he was banned using words. Maybe he shouldn't be so upset about it.
I made a big commentary about that topic, wasted 20 minutes of my time for it, but UA-cam deletes it. I saw it coming, because it's not the first time it does censoring when you say something against western-leftist-diversity point of view... But I will short it out to one point:
Here in Russia we have a proverb "В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят", which if translated literally sounds like "you do not go to a foreign monastery with your own monastery rules". Which can be compared to "Then in Rome, do as Romans do".
Where Lyude clearly did exact the opposite. She brought Freedesktop CoC, disregarded Hyprland own already there and brought big company balls also by using redhat email address. And made a polite looking threat, like if anyone from now on ever complains about your Discord server... Implying canceling Vaxry. Wanted to enforce their own set of rules, there they have no power upon.
And ban Vaxry from Freedesktop GitLab instance, while he haven't did anything wrong while contributing in Freedesktop space. And I personally think that in Open Source and Free Software movement, the code should talk for you, not your Discord server. And banning a developer from GitLab because his little Discord is as stupid as it can be.
And let's be honest, it's not about Vaxry himself, but about incompatible political views. He was banned not because of Discord server exactly, but because it has formed mostly right-winged community members. Which someone like Lyude wanted to be changed.
And I personally feel unwelcome to contribute to Freedesktop projects because of this extraterritorial CoC scoping. It's like, I feel like will be banned from their GitLab instance, when someone like Lyude discover my little Telegram microblog. Because it has posts not compatible with her political views.
I'm fully on Vaxry side in this incident.
Thank you so much for this video. This "angry rant" definitely got you a new friend (or follower at least) XD
I love the open source community - love the fact that it gives me choice. I'm going to exercise that choice and stay away from a shitty project run by a toxic individual. I've done the same before - wrt a couple of privacy oriented custom Android ROMs.
Oy vey, my rabbi said it's dangerous!
After being immersed in the inclusive side of the Linux community for so long, I kinda forgot about some of the socially backwards troglodytes who managed to find their way here. I really hope that Hyprland doesn't go down the wrong path.
the wrong path for you is the right path for others.
Backwards? What, you mean the horrific surgeries performed on mentally ill individuals? The pills irreparably rendering them infertile? The glorification of mental illness? Correct, very backwards indeed.
@@SilverSeleucid A path of discrimination and hatred is a good path?
The inclusive part of the Linux community is the most chill and amazing community i have ever been part of, i think its the right path
@@alphaca66 Morals are subjective. What you consider righteous can be considered disgusting by others. Grow up, "progressive".
@@dankenhausPeople are free to live their lives, if progressivism is just pro-freedom then damn straight I'm a progressive.
What would I wanna conserve? What would I wanna go back to? Before I could get married? Before women could vote? Before the Civil rights act? Before slavery was ended? Oh maybe we can go back to when my ancestors were murdered and/or forced onto a plot of land, then killed again as America expanded west using God as an excuse to genocide my people because the land belonged to Americans according to God!
How about we conserve biblical values? How much do you think I could get for selling a daughter? If its profitable enough I'll go grape a woman to force her to be my wife, then keep doing it til we have a daughter, then sell my daughter off to some dude
The fact that any toxicity can happen in a server about a DE is insane. Stop crying about people using pronouns you don't like, find something actually worth getting annoyed about
This was very educational.
I personally think Freedesktop banning him is not the right move.
I could understand a project not wanting to work with someone owning a Discord with some notoriously terrible moderation, however as a group working towards common standards. I think the amount of crap, you should tolerate should be higher. I don't think this whole affair reaches that point.
I am a firm believer in not excluding people for their believes, or lack there off and separating the art from the artist. So personally would be very reluctant to bar someone, even if I find their believes repulsive, as long as their conduct is fine in interacting with them, I have no real problem.
So listen, there's this bowl of cherries here that you are free to eat from. One or possibly more of them are for sure gonna make you sick sick sick, but like I won't tell you which, but really here's this entire bowl of really really delicious cherries. Will you eat from it? You can't simply tolerate everything because then you invite the intolerable into the mix and they start excluding others because that's what they do.
@@Latchfpv The question is at what point is something intollerable, what level of interaction is too much, there are no absolutes here only degrees.
For me, I think Vexxi's current behavior does not reach the threshold to bar him from his already limited interaction with the freedesktop. He is not a board member or anything like that.
Another thing to consider is excluding those you deem intolerable has a cost, your project will suffer for it, the person may radicalize.
If someone is an ass on your turf, you can say don't be an ass on my turf. But if someone is also in a group of assholes somewhere else, excluding him will only work to reinforce and entrench his believes.
@@qlum That's his problem though, if he chooses to become more regressive as a result of others deciding not to tolerate his bullshit. That's not the problem of anyone else. Actions have consequences. You may not think it's offensive enough, however I'd wager you are also not one of the marginalized groups he's so clearly toxic towards. You have no idea of how it would feel for them. Extend some of that empathy towards those folks for a moment too (yanno the victims), like you are empathizing with the attacker.
@@Latchfpv I definitely agree that the way he runs things is not great, his views are ones you may normaly consider not working with someone.
The distinction here is to loop back around, the freedesktop's limited goals and limited interaction. For that, banning a desktop is a great loss.
I definitely wished he handled things different though, this was entirely unneeded.
This is a bad philosophy to have. It enforces privilege of those with power and how they are protected when their bad behavior is called out, but is also antithetical to how people generally behave and interact with one another. It is however very common in workplace culture which giving good faith here, I believe is why this opinion is held. It's common for those in power to abuse that power. While this typically ends up working in workplaces because there are other mechanics of power that allow it to occur, in a space where money isn't the driving factor for work getting done, people are not going to want to work with someone who openly and now publicly has allowed abuse, hazing, and fostered toxic creating spaces which have effected lgbtq people. This is a stop gap to keep other people interested in a project. I would much rather keep a team of contributors on the project if it meant not allowing a toxic dev on the project.
Without going into the issue of what was said, I do have a problem with this normalization of people being thrown out of projects for what UA-cam and Twitter used to call "off-platform behavior". What he did was still on his own platform. As far as I know he did not do the same thing on the Freedesktop platforms.
It used to be that as long as you behaved according to the rules where the rules were applied, you clearly knew how to respect different sets of boundaries and that was enough. In this new way of thinking then as long as you can find behavior _anywhere_ which does not comply with your rules then they should be excluded.
I think this is a large part of why we're having a growing issue with polarization on the internet. The people who are now being isolated to not cease to exist, they just go somewhere else where they meet other people who have also been isolated and build this idea of being unfairly treated. When that group becomes large enough it becomes a real issue of those people against the rest, which inevitably results in an "us vs them" mentality. In other words, polarization.
That's just called having a reputation. If you do shit some people don't like, and they hear of it, they might not want to work with you, who knew?
@@mthalter That argument is messed up. I don't think you realize just how bad it is, but if you apply that exact same logic to what Vaxry did then from his perspective he was "not wanting to work with someone who did shit he didn't like" (and did some other things too but that was the ember that started it all).
Furthermore the individual members of Freedesktop didn't decide to stop working with Vaxry, it was a small part of a Freedesktop administrative team who decided it for them without asking first.
@@mthalter I am sure you would have used this exact same argument if a troon was told to sod off. Not everyone promotes the castration of children after all.
" _people being thrown out of projects for what UA-cam and Twitter used to call "off-platform behavior"_ " -- FDO isn't the same kind of thing as UA-cam, Twitter, and other large-scale websites that are open to the general public, though; it's a relatively small organization whose original purpose was to develop technical specifications to be implemented by GNOME, KDE, Xfce, and other X11 desktop-environments, in order to improve interoperability between them.
I'd say that, in general, it's OK for *small* organizations to set fairly restrictive standards for themselves about what kinds of social etiquette their members must or mustn't adhere to... however, that principle shouldn't be applied to communications utilities (like residential Internet service, personal email, paper mail, etc.) that a large portion of the general public *NEEDS to use* as part of ordinary life.
@@The_Lawnmower_Man It doesn't matter if FDO isn't the same as UA-cam or Twitter, they're applying the same broken principles. Off-platform behavior is clearly not under their leadership so why even bother at all as long as they behave on-platform?
You have freedom of speech or freedom of expression. It's a dog whistle to say that you don't have those rights because you decided to discriminate against another individual over characteristics that are out of their control, that violates human rights laws in the US, Canada (CHRC and OHRC), UK , EU (ECHR), Australia, New Zealand and more. Just because you have freedom of speech or freedom of expression doesn't free you from consequences
So advertising his pronouns was totally out of his control?
9:54 as i said in the other comment, thats just wrong, its not like a maybe, its just not true
because of context, you can be "offensive" just because you know you are not offensive and because if you are, people is encouraged to talk about it and then they stop, its just talking shit in a non serious context, talking freely with vulgar terms for example in a closed environment where you just use it like we use "fuck" very often in vulgar context but not in formal context
its like the difference between formal and informal, some things are ok to say on informal talking, but not on formal... well, the informal part is deeper, so the context is a keypoint because "fuck you" is not always with offensive intentions and its for example something sometimes said between friends, just as other "bad words", as just part of the informal/vulgar vocabulary
the only problem is in my opinion with the mod who changed the prefix to who/cares, but given he was not vaxry, well, why should vaxry get all the shit and not the one who actually was the only obviously transphobic person in all of this?
It's so strange that a lot of people don't take harassment and discrimination seriously, especially when it comes to queer and neurodivergent individuals. (I include neurodivergent because of that "brain damage" message from early in the video) I especially hate the victim blaming that's done to people who experience harassment or discrimination, acting like they're the problem if they don't like it. Calling people "weak" for not wanting to be harassed or discriminated against is just shifting the blame from the abuser to the abused. But what do I know? I'm just someone who has empathy for other people.
It's also both very funny and very sad to see something. say they don't care about pronouns and someone being themselves, yet they are actually not and actually making fun of trans people and defend Vaxry being very rude to people, with 40% of server poll saying they have been harassed in server.
classic internet. "they are so weak and sensitive" - people who are trigger happy to ruin someone's day to make fun of their gender identity.
Empathy is not a real thing. You've been taught that just so you're easier to control. A useful idiot in other words.
Vaxry is a smart programmer, but very immature.
Hyprland is really my favorite since Plasma dumped 5.27.
It's not just the Hyprland community, its the Arch community as a whole. If you ask a question they would spend 20 minutes to explain about how dumb you are and break down every theory to go with it.
So is the CoC team actually following and enforcing the CoC by the letter or just their feelings?
I think this ban was a little too extreme but I kinda get it. Using different pronouns against one's wishes is bad but it is another thing to harass someone just for having them in their username. I can see why someone would do everything to distance themselves from someone that downplays this kind of behavior.
The thing most right-wing folks don't understand about this is collaborating is a social contract not a requirement. Just like inviting someone into your home you're allowed to kick them out for any reason. If you act like a bigot or allow those communities to develop people aren't going to want to work with you. It's simple as that. FreeDesktop isn't telling Hyprland how to run Hyprland's home, they're telling them they can't come into the FreeDesktop's kitchen and start making breakfast because of some heinous stuff they seen while they (FreeDesktop) were visiting.
People just pretend that the pronoun person was not a troublemaker. And they pretend this did not happen two years ago. And they pretend the guy at Freedesktop did not abuse his position simply because he too is a pronoun person.
But Nicco, did you consider, at least he didn't say the n-word.
Oy vey! My rabbi said it's a (((racist))) conspiracy!
Let’s see if Brodie does a video, and if so how much he is downplaying this.
In this type of situations I kinda regret not subbing him xd I reaaaaally wanna see his reaction vid
Looks like his video on this has landed
@@questionlp His video is an absolute shit and this is what I expected. His and Nicco's videos were roughly similar length and yet Brodie was talking about nothing most of the time. He's the master of downplaying stuff.
The video dropped and seems like a measured take.
Reiteration for everyone: Freedom of speech doesnt equate the freedom to evade consequences
Freedom of speech is not about letting people physically utter words. It is about protecting them from consequences that are imposed in order to control or restrict what can and can’t be spoken about.
@@eternal1050 From the government. That's the key part you forgot to mention. Any business can throw you off their property if you misbehave, even if you do so legally.
@@ahsokaincognito A lot of people don't understand that. Free speech absolutists will act like you are allowed to say anything without consequences even though that right only applies to the government, and even that has exceptions sometimes. Remember when George Carlin went to jail for saying the "7 words you can't say on TV" bit on stage?
@@ahsokaincognito the irony is a notable amount of freedom of speech radicals would be scandalised when some words are censored or when light clothing to nudity is being used for expression. It's one thing to be allowed to say one hates something, it is yet another to exhort those one hates to hide and turn them invisible. If one's freedom ends where another's starts, one's freedom of speech stops when it demands another one's to disappear. In this instance, insisting that "who/cares" about pronouns is banning someone who feels it important to be shares, and listens who is willing. Rejecting one's sexual tastes because they didn't taste the mainstream flavor is at the same level. Talking in such a way about AIDS is the more dangerous part as it is misinformed and implies straight folks can't catch it. And fby the by, it is treateable nowadays.
@@eternal1050 "Free speech" includes freedom of association, and people have a right to make clear that they don't tolerate for example transphobia by deciding not to associate with the person that acted like he did
Imagine being so socially inept that you get triggered over someones having a bit of extra text in their username. Like, how is that even something worth spending neuron cycles on 🙄
Same goes reversed. Imagine being triggered over someones changing text in your username, lol.
@@Kerojey Huh? My username is MY username. If someone else changed it without my permission solely to make fun of me, I'd be pissed.
That's a textbook case of bullying.
@@Kerojey Do you also think about your ex's boyfriend as much as you think about others' pronouns? Maybe you should focus on yourself and grow as a person instead.
@@Nina-cd2eh No, im not snowflake like you, I have better things in my life, other than thinking about imaginary pronouns...
The reason pronouns trigger people is because those who are into them expect everyone else to also use them or else. It's compulsory speech. Compulsory speech is even worse than denying free speech.
Vaxry is a skilled developer with a massive ego. He believes that the world should conform to his view and that he should not be bothered to change in order to participate with the broader community. The transphobic thing is just a small part of the overall picture.
This incident is not enough to affect him in any way, he will continue as he is.
This is especially true considering that there are people in the community that humor him and tell him that he did nothing wrong, enabling his behavior.
I think its more accurate to say he thinks that the world shouldn't universally cater to anyones world view. Unfortunately it never ends up working that way.
@@pragmaticmero686 Of course he SEEMED like a good guy in that interview. He was talking to the guy that regularly feeds his ego.
Why should anyone tolerate lyude's downright inappropriate behavior? Do let us all know how it goes when it will be you on the receiving end of the abuse of power.
"The world should conform to his view"
That's quite ironic, considering how the LGBT community wants to change and force everyone to call them by their pronouns. You absolutely can't force anyone to use xyz pronoun, in the same way I can't force you to call me "Mr Ruthless God"/"The Big Chungus", " Mr. GigaChad" etc.
The fact that the FDO community loses their mind over this just showcases how far into degeneracy we are.
But he did nothing wrong
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from its consequences. That is not only true in the United States, but it's even more true when you're working globally.
when leisure suit larry is right, he's right
So if a country puts people into jail for voicing their opinion... isn't that just a consequence? So freedom of speech is actually not in danger, but it's just consequences?
Now if people stop voicing their opinions because of fear of repercussions... what does that sound like? Hhhmmmmm......
"Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from its consequences" is such a stupid thing to say. It's just "say whatever you want..... as far as i agree with it, OTHWISE be afraid of consequences". That's not freedom of speech. That's straight up oppression.
@@abenzdev you clearly don't understand the meaning behind the sentence.But instead of trying to understand it you just made an uninformed rant.
@@S41t4r4 ... nice rant.
@@abenzdev Freedom of speech does not cover the "court of public opinion" and most organizations and companies do care about their public image, so they will take measures to not associate with someone that they think will hurt it, rather it will or not.
I am sorry you see that as "oppression" but real oppression would be being stripped of your freedom of choice to not associate with someone that you think can permanently damage the image of yourself or your personal organization/company. Especially since that person was allowed to exercise their own freedom of choice to created the reputation you don't want to associate with.
🤷♂
Great video Nicco. The outro was fantastic.
Everybody should just do what they are good at. There is no need to involve any politics or religion or any ideology in the workplace that is not a political campaign. As Morgan Freeman once said, when we stop talking about racism, we truly get rid of racism.
Right, and there's nothing political about biology. Hopefully the hyperland community can stop politicizing things.
Edit: I conceed when it comes to the part of not involving politics in FOSS projects, since being open sourced is an inherently political subject. That said, I dont think one should involve certain topics into FOSS projects that have nothing to do with it, like for example religion in the kernel or something like that. When it comes to this specific subject, I personally am of the opinion that I dont have to know certain personal details about a person, especially if they dont matter to the interactions I'll have with them. If you belive yourself a woman, then introduce yourself as a woman. Unless its part of the project, I dont have to know that someone has transitioned or what their sexuality is. Personally, I tend to be agnostic when it comes to things like that and simply tag people to avoid any confusion, be it at work or privat conversations. I do not wish to be forced to use a specific language, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be disrispectful.
I know I'm going to be downvoted to hell for my opinion, but I dont think stuff like politics and sexuality should be discussed in a Foss project that has nothing to do with it. Pronoun's are a none issue when you can simply address a person using their user name and there is no need to share personal information on the net about your sexuality, especially when no one asked for it. Its not a right to be called the correct pronoun or name, its a privilege. Ofcourse this doesnt mean one shouldn't extend common human curtesy to anyone we interact with IRL or online just cause you feel protected by a thin vail of anonymity. Insulting someone out of nowhere are sings of bad upbringing and in general a waste of energy, same thing with getting insulted by the comments of a random person on the net, when you can just block them. The ability to have a healthy and civil discussion on contentious topics and being able to leave in good terms is a vital skill thats severally lacking. Just cause I disagree with your stance on topics, doesnt mean I'm allowed to insult you. I dont understand why people cant get that through their head.
open source software is inherently political. I don't get why people think it, of all things, can be divorced from politics. It's an overt challenge to the privatization and hyper individualism we see under the status quo of capitalism.
And like...lots political topics have a direct impact on open source software. Do you live in a country without universal health care like the US? Well then it's that much harder to be able to dedicate your time to working on an open source project. Wars might not seem immediately relevant - until major developers in Russia get cut out of projects because they happen to live in a country that invaded Ukraine (which notably happened with the nginx project). And of course privacy and right to repair directly impact the open source community. And of course there's the attacks on various emulation projects being carried out by Nintendo that have recently resulted in multiple projects shutting down. There are tons of political issues that directly and indirectly impact the foss projects (and the broader community) that are 100% valid topics of discussion within those projects.
Sure, there are contentious topics that should probably be avoided within foss projects - religion, for instance, is probably rarely relevant. Who, if anyone, you (or others) prefer to fuck is also rarely relevant.
As for pronouns - yes, you can largely avoid misgendering people by trying to exclusively use their names (or usernames) - but it's incredibly awkward, which is why pronouns exist in the first place. It is not unreasonable to expect that if someone chooses to specify their pronouns in their username, that people make a genuine effort to use those pronouns when referring to them. Nor is it divulging an unreasonable amount of personal information to voluntarily add your pronouns to your username.
the thing is gender is often of one's identity and it's inferred to such in public events, that's what sours me on takes like this like sure maybe a no romance talk rule (which btw isn't ever talked about besides the off topic channel on a discord) but you aren't gonna stop people from wanting to use pronouns and shit like that.
the only reason to treat trans people as a politics thing that is a privilege to mention is because you see trans people as an optional opinion and not as a group of people born like that, like how there is black people and white people and so on.
The number of people who consider themselves as part of the community created around the inherently political objective of maintaining an alternative to the imposition of economic and social reality of corporatisation and proprietarisation of software, internet and society, and then turn around and demand that community be "separate from politics" is mind-blowing.
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict You would think the open source community would be a breeding ground for anti-capitalist leftists, but no - so many within the community are weird centrists or shitty right-wing libertarians. It's a constant source of confusion for me.
interesting that the replies for this comment claim that because libre software is "political", communities within it can't have rules to be "politically neutral".
Disgusting to see the online abuse that person received just for sharing their pronouns. What a load of immature harassing fools.
By sharing such nonsense you also share some information about you as a person: the fact you are a mindless groomer for one.
As a white trans person I'm not sure I'd say forcefully changing someone's pronouns to (who/cares) is less bad than using the N-word. In either case the message of not being in the slightest bit welcome is very clear. And with the inability to change it back that person is being literally branded as a disliked minority in the community. I don't want to compare harassment of trans people to people of colour, but I think he really underestimated how large of a harassment that was.
are you a "fellow white person"?
Is it only as bad when it's a trans person? If they changed a cisgender person she/her or he/him to who/cares, is it still as bad as the N word?
@@Mankepanke Another trans person here, it's not about the pronouns exactly, it's about the message that was sent, a person just adding their pronouns to their nickname is really inconsecuential and someone took a bother with that and sent a message that that person is not welcomed there.
That being said, misgendering can actually be offensive, even to cis people, but it's not the N word exactly, it's more, again, about the message you're sending with the misgender.
@@Mankepanke I see your point. At least let's say that it is also really not good.
There exists rarely any justification for randomly changing people's nick names. That goes beyond so many boundaries already.
Most notably, it has especially very little to do with (professional) moderation work.
Finally, on top of that, it is deliberately against people of a specific group. Which still makes it worse I think, but on top of the already bad basics.
@@GemmstoneA Oy vey, my rabbi said it's hate speech!
Teenagers drama at its best
Incredible how basic human rights and decency are equated to politics - or even require to be the topic of any discussion whatsoever.
Shame about Hyprland, let's just hope Vaxry does indeed learn from this.
Guess I'm sticking with KDE for a little longer then!
What is there to learn?
@@dankenhaus 2 things:
1) don't be an (intolerant) asshole, and
2) expect consequences if you fail n°1
@@Elristan "Intolerance" is subjective. "Hate speech" does not legally exist in the US.
@@dankenhaus you're the only one invoking any legalese right now. The first amendment does *not* shield you from consequences and that is the exact point.
I'm not even a huge political/social person and I think this is messed up. You're allowed to have your opinions but just let people be, this is just making this worse for everyone.
I feel being yourself shouldn't be political. It's people who are against opinions that make it look like politics. Messy world we live in 🫂
@@duckrinium, except that half the population does not think the pronoun person was "being himself". They think he's pretending to be something he's not.
@@seriouscat2231 you have 0 respect toward person who have not done anything harmful to anyone in any way and get treated like a joke or something. You even keep misgendering them even after learning their pronouns, on purpose. Why are people so mean without reason? 😭
@@duckrinium, actually I've heard that the pronoun person was a difficult person too, so this did not come out of nowhere.
I do not buy into the belief that a man can turn himself into a woman. You need to understand that without any intended disrespect or any ill intention, that does not leave me much choice.
@@seriouscat2231 You know, they could've just banned the person if they were like real troublesome. But instead they started publicly harassing them. And that's IF, from what Oro said, they never intended anything bad and they got bullied by mods and Vaxry said some very rude things about trans people.
Well, research the topic more, but regardless, this is about respecting person the way they are, they did not do anything harmful to be treated like this, especially by the moderation team of the server.
We're at least getting a fork of hyprcursor taken seriously, right? Like, people aren't gonna just bin the idea of having a vector based cursor because of internet drama, _...right?_
Calling it "internet drama" is a bit disingenuous, but given how rapidly hypr\* development happens, KDE should be limiting themselves to adopting a static version of the *protocol* (as opposed to the project) anyway.
hyprcursor will never take off now. You know how it is, "We don't like this guy so everything he touches must be burned to the ground!"
Internet drama rules the world. Or at least the US.
@@GSBarlevBut it is just internet drama. It's fake problems because usernames got mad other usernames.
@@GSBarlev I _do_ think that Vaxry acted like an asshole, but to burn down the idea of a genuine improvement to the way cursors are handled just because people don't like his behavior thus want to burn anything related to his creation, even the idea itself, when it's open source and can be forked and worked on without him would be _incredibly petty_ and frustrating and make people mad at the people involved with banning him too, because it's punishing people who aren't even involved with this controversy with a regression in genuine innovation.
I have no stake in this event, I don't have a "side", I just know I'm against whoever doesn't put innovation in software first before politics and drama. You can add vector based cursors without having to _literally use Vaxry's project,_ it can be a fork, or a different implementation of the same idea. I don't care _where_ vector based cursors come from, I would just like them to happen. If it doesn't happen now as an _idea_ just because vaxry proposed it, yeah, it's frustrating petty internet drama to most of us because again, we're being punished for something we're not even involved with.
I earnestly don't understand why people wouldn't see why that's a bad look and cause people to "both sides" an issue that would otherwise be pretty cut and dry as "Vaxry is highly unpleasant and we don't want to work with him."
@@GSBarlev I don't like how vaxry acted, and don't approve of their behavior, but if we're ALL getting punished by not having vector based cursors when the project is open source and can be forked and worked on without them, then that does actually make this dumb internet drama to most of us, because it's putting politics and internal bickering first over the health of the software we're actually using. Like, not having vector based cursors is something that affects everyone, not just specific people.
I'm not saying that Vaxry's work _specifically_ should be used, however, if FD excommunicating them is going to lead to losing a genuine innovation in how cursors are handled, that does, in fact, make this into a "both sides" thing, because then it just becomes petty that they're not at least using the _idea_ of a vector based cursor but implemented by someone else, just because hyprcursor was the merge request to present the idea. We're getting punished for things we weren't even involved with, you have to see how that feels pretty bad, and might not cast the best light on the people who (rightfully) punished Vaxry, right?
Due to the fact that it can be forked, or modified, yet still implemented without vaxry, it's not really a context where one can just say "Well if you wanted it, then go get mad at Vaxry, not us". Because people would be making the conscious decision to take a scorched earth approach to this.
These people really do need to go outside and learn some social skills smh...
man, ur talking about linux devs
@@NeftisIsHere Nah, there is two types of linux devs: 1. chad og ultra-liberal, writes some obscure lib* package to overthrow the desktop duopoly that powers half the ecosystem using only vim, man and c, finds out about his project having issues on hacker news because he hates the privacy intrusive capitalists at social media platforms
2. 19 year old high functioning "thinker" without social skills, writes some gui in electron that takes 23 GB of RAM to launch, spends his free time (which he has too much of) on 4chan and in the twitter trends to complain about liberals because he doesn't know what liberalism means
@@ahsokaincognito You do realise social media platforms are run by shitlibs, right? Something something twitter something something censorship. Thankfully a man with a functional brain took over that shitlib mess.
@@ahsokaincognito " _on hacker news because he hates the privacy intrusive capitalists_ " -- The problem with that, though, that HN is run by a venture-capital firm (or "startup accelerator", as they call themselves), so it's not a particularly FOSS-friendly forum itself.
@@ahsokaincognito Those right-wing libertarians are closer to the center socially. Neoliberalism and everything to the left of it is a disease that must be contained.
Oh well, heard good things about Sway
I really hope he will change, I think he's in his early 20s so there's still hope for him.
Would be a shame to lose such a nice project because the lead dev's immaturity.
Or we stop caring about people's personal opinions when it comes to their work. For example, I think Tom Cruise's scientology affiliation is bad, but I still respect him as an actor.
I think separating these things is the healthiest thing you can do. We're all different and have different values and we all deserve to be able to live and work without repression.
Thank you for keeping the community informed, and for exposing the deplorable attitudes often found in this kind of online spaces
Deplorable attitudes? Dunno about you buddy, but castrating pre-teens sounds more deplorable to me than any attitude.
Is there a fork of hyprland I could use that's mega gay?
But like seriously, with the recent news about him Vaxry wanting to step away from the work load, and being quite a gross human, maybe we let him fade into irrelevance.
seriously where's my gay compositor? my OS is ready
GDE (Gay Desktop Environment)
We should fork hyprland and call it hypergay
someone already tried a fork, its called poly-land
@@kubakakaukowhere is the hate speech? Is it in the room with us right now?
aw man, stuff like this is always really hard to watch :c
im really sorry for the victim that any of this happened to them, as a non binary person myself, i really wish so many people weren't like this :(
You're on the internet. As far as other people are concerned you're the same as everyone else - an avatar and a user name. Your gender, ethnicity, your looks and your beliefs are literally not an issue unless you yourself choose to make it one.
@@Xaito you probably have many friends and get invited to a lot of parties
@@max782_ Any more personal attacks you want to get out of your system?
The thing that kinda stands out to me about this situation is that if none of the communications became public and people didn’t hear about it all first, I really don’t think anyone would’ve come to the conclusions everyone seems to be coming to here about the discord moderation and peoples behavior. I absolutely disagree with vaxry’s views on some things and think he handled a lot the situation poorly - but as someone who’s spent some time in the discord and is very much a queer ally, the events and behaviors are being blown way, way out of proportion. In fact, I’d call what Drew Devault has said about it borderline outrageous - the server does not need a “come to Jesus moment” nor is it filled with hatred and nazis.
if all you have to say is that "the bullying, abuse, and harassment wasn't THAT bad" then stop calling yourself an ally because you are not one, you are a bigotry enabler
Just out of curiosity, In which channels do you usually look in the discord? I very quickly learned to stay away from # general and other non-tech channels, because the general atmosphere just seemed at best very immature and at worst toxic and hostile towards certain groups and made me pretty uncomfortable.
The hyprland-* channels for the most part were fine though.
@@AbsusRex I guess I have spent more time in the hyprland-* channels, but some general too. I do see a lot of cursing and banter (the description “like a highschool boys locker room” that drew gave isn’t that far off), just that actual transphobia/bigotry/asshole behavior doesn’t seem to be tolerated. Though I am open to being corrected on this!
@@BvngeeCord I think the locker room comparison is very apt, i would also describe the community mostly immature. But especially (but not exclusively) the last 2 days there's been a lot of hostile comments towards basically everything LGBTQ+ and left-wing, which are still mostly tolerated. But it also might simply be due to a lack of moderators tbf
@@AbsusRex I don't think lack of moderation in such big server is an excuse.
Vaxry is gonna have to learn how to adapt to expectations as hyprland grows as a project.. i think a lot of the comments here are a bit insane tho 💀
No the terminally online mastodon users are going to have to learn to touch grass.
@@happygofishing let's be real, Vaxry and the hyprland community is just as terminally online
Behind every pronoun person there are countless lynch mobs waiting to spring into action. They will destroy everything they can and then sanctimoniously gloat about it, quoting such things as "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences".
Honestly, I find both parties equally insufferable on an interpersonal level, but I would also 100% throw out of my house anyone spewing hateful words against someone else.
This right here. I find both parties to be equally insufferable.
But instead of joining about the pronouns, just do like most people do: ignore them.
Instead of trying to apologize for hateful content, block them.
It’s not that hard to be a decent human being
Which both parties? A person who thinks they should be afforded the same right of not being subjected to barrages of slurs, bile and attacks because of who they are, that is extended to the majority on the Discord server they are part of - that person is as "insufferable" as the people doing that to them?
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrictyou are literally describing what happened to the banned person, though. He was attacked here, and he gets a lot of hate thrown around in the comments, despite being explicitly 100% completely accepting of all people.
I don't get why you would defend the cry-bully here.
@@Mankepanke I've no idea what you're talking about. What "cry-bully" did I defend? And which "banned person" was "completely accepting of all people"? Did both of us watch the same video?
@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict where did Vexry do anything of what you listed?
Which part of "Hyprland is not a place where you will be denied contributions based solely on your race, gender, religion or any other traits." is offensive to you?
Or was it this part?
"Now, actual discrimination is definitely not cool. Harassment, targeted bullying, and the alikes are a total asshole behavior, and should not be accepted."
I don't see what's wrong here. Help me to find it.
Welp, being a good developer doesn't mean you didn't grow up on 4chan values and knowledge, go figure
River WM looking real good right now
i literally switched to sway from hyprland earlier today without even knowing of this
Real good if you like unfinished projects.
No it doesnt 💀
if he doesn't want to make an effort to run his project professionally then he can't complain getting banned from a professional project. Not to mention his recent whining about being the only dev on his project: when he pushes people away like this with transphobic, right wing BS.
Good riddance. Dont care if you do good work for the open source community we have enough shitty people who ruin their communities whilst getting upset that they dont get more credit for the privilege.
Kudos Niccolo, I know it cant have been easy to make this video while also not getting EXTREMELY pissed off.
Don't worry, you're next on politburo's list.
He did not care to run his project progressively. I honestly read it first like that.
While they're banning people over grammar they should also get rid of anybody who writes "would of" instead of the correct "would have"
Your English is very good for a German
I'm not German
@@niccoloveslinux (: I know :D. We all know how much the french love the Germans ;)
@@MarcelPeters-wx5he Yep, France and Germany have always been allies. 😅
I don't get people that go out of their way to hate on others about things like race, sexuality, gender, sex, politics, beliefs or even generic things a person likes. I also do not understand people who get hurt by words they see written online, if a community is harassing you just leave, there are millions of communities online that would treat you better. You can't change people in the real world, you cannot change people online.
"y'all sensitive", alright, if someone, who misgendered the person in question apologized and moved on with using correct pronouns, it would've been okay, everyone makes mistakes. But no they took it to the next level by misgendering on purpose and then have the audacity to set their nickname to have "who/cares" and then also making fun of trans people on server. That's the problem here, a completely disrespectful behavior. Using slurs is bad too. Racial slurs are not good, but why do some people think transgender slurs are fine? Btw, I never seen someone saying t-slur with no ill intentions, usually sticking with words trans or transgender, but not slur. In the context he used it is to make fun of them.
about FDO actions, its their place to decide who can contribute, they don't police any other places and they based it on behavior in public. I think you can and want to close a door on someone who is yelling slurs and curses at the street if you don't like it. They did not ban them from anywhere else but their own platform. I don't see a problem with that, they done it based on actions, not anything arbitrary. Though, I would say they should've done it 2 years ago honestly, it's very late in general to do it only now.
would you say that Hyprland's community is an echo chamber?
@@yag-yet_another_gamer I can't really tell because I haven't seen the server but it seems quite edgy and toxic
🌬❄
To me it's quite sad that things had to turn this way. Some people need to learn their lessons the hard way, I just hope that Vaxry has the resilience to learn from this fiasco and get back on his feet, or the FOSS community might loose a very talented developer in the long run. I will continue to use Hyprland as I've done in the last 2 years because it's a fantastic project, I just hope to see its communty get better over time.
Edit: after reading all of the documents and posts and learning about the relation between Drew and Vaxry, I came to the conclusion that both parties acted very childish, and that both should know better how to behave, considering their position. Honestly, I'm embarrassed by how this situation was managed by FDO. I do not condone what happened in the Hyprland community, nor the toxicity that still permeate to this day, but to me it is quite clear that this situation was handled quite unprofessionally to say the least, because the FDO person was too involved. To everyone involved I'd say "Grew up and start acting as adults"
I wouldn't label these controversies "political". They are a matter of culture war. Culture war is a matter of maintaining the status quo. They do not affect the things that truly matter: economy, military spending, housing crisis, geopolitical alliances, etc.
Banning the discussion of politics, especially LGBT makes absolute sense. It never goes well, and always ends with some massive schism in the community. Your status among, or without even, the LGBT community is irrelevant to open source. It's best to just leave it to the relevant discussion boards and servers.
Heshe has no place in computing sorry, it’s the wrong interest group
based
Don't stress yourself too much. Some peeps aren't even worth mentioning. Love your work, don't stress too much over some jerks who live from drama.
Of course people disagree on which side in this issue lives from drama.
Well it clear what must be done. Time to rewrite it in Rust.
I'm in 2 minds on the subject, on the whole I think politics should not really be included in FOSS software or its spaces.
On one hand hand I definitely agree that Vaxry seems like a massive asshole when it comes to the moderation of his project and other projects don't have to interact with him if they don't want, on the other hand I have seen screenshots of Lyude actively saying that they bully people who disagree with them on LGBT issues and I also think that's wrong too.
Also for clarity, the reason people are putting redhat into the mix is because they used their redhat email address to send these emails, if I used my employer email account to send emails to someone I would definitely think that would be tied to my employer. If I didn't want their clout or them to be involved I would use my personal email account.
At the end of the day I think it's wrong for people to be harassed in his project, but I also think it's wrong to exclude people for wrongthink in other projects too.
Why not? You already published the code in a way that anyone in the world can benefit, in a public or private space. Why should you hide your allegiances, and work with people that you don't like, when said people already has the liberty of doing their own think however they like, a liberty that you expressly endorsed in your license?
Seriously, we should, of course, let anyone have their own space. I'm against calling software with license clauses of "everyone except you" as Free Software. But why should I or anyone else have to restrain of expressing our true colors, so the rest can freely see and judge them?
Don't get me wrong, to learn to live and work along to people that you might or might not like is an essential human skill, but at the same time, every community in the history of mankind has adopted core tenants to function, even if they are few and weak, and personally I prefer when those tenants are explicit and enforced, and not simple dead letter, so I can know from the begging if I would be comfortable in said community.
apolitical is a fantasy thing that doesn't exist, and politics got involved the moment the hyperlandians decided to, guided by their poltical opinions, harass someone for political reasons based on them being a politically marginalized group
It's not about hiding allegiances though, it's FOSS should be about the software and freedom of the software and the politics can be discussed separately otherwise the software isn't really free. I'm just uncomfortable with politics on either side being brought into projects, i'd rather the software projects be focused on the software itself and not external factors that are irrelevant. An example is the Ukraine war, while I denounce Russia as a matter of principle and support Ukraine's' sovereignty, I don't know why software projects need to get involved or even ban Russians from the project as it makes the software less free and it introduces negativity where there doesn't need to be any. Sure support the cause as a person, but I don't know why open source software have become a way to politically grandstand for all of the causes you deem worthy these days.
I'm ok with rules of engagement in a project, in fact they're necessary, but my understanding is that this had nothing to do with him breaking the rules inside the walls of the project, this was based on stuff he said or did in his own project?
Like I said, sure they may not want to interact with him (and I don't know if he even contributed to the project) but to ban someone for something they did in another space just seems unreasonable, feels very anti-free honestly and more dictatorial.
Literally the reason why FOSS was created was political. Stop pretending that politics don't exist, it won't do anyone any good.
EDIT: this came off as pretty aggressive, I didn't meant to do that
It is not because wrongthink. It is because it is being mean and creating discourse around people's personal lives and ridiculing them. If he kept his opinions to non work related communities, this could be avoided. Varxy chose to engage. Out of his own volition he expressed contempt for everyone involved who did think he is wrong.
I don't think it is productive to keep him there, no matter what he does
Just my thoughts - he hasn't changed since the incidents from a couple of years ago. He's learned to deflect enough and whine about it. He isn't the first asshole in the Open Source Software community and this playbook is quite old now. The email he got only had words. Maybe he should grow stronger about dealing with words that form sentences and stop whining about things 🤷♂
As a Christian conservative, I don’t see eye to eye with most Linux projects on politics and social culture things. That doesn’t bother me. Use the project that you like the most, who cares if the dev is disagrees with you.
Yeah, nothing here affects you. Good for you. :)
@@alexandriap.3285 normal people dont get affected by mean words on the internet.
@@SilverSeleucidAnd that's why mean people are getting banned from FreeDesktop, but someone still doesn't like that.
@@alexandriap.3285, this is probably because he does not go around advertising his views and demanding acceptance for them.
I completely agree with the sentiment of keeping politics bs out, I do that in my discord channel too, I just don't care about it and if people want to discuss that there are many venues outside of the discord channel to do so. The difference is that Varxy ACTIVELY engaged in politics and then when people complained that he was talking about politics he came with "don't talk about politics here" LMAO
How do you keep politics out of an open source project? The entire concept of open source, the idea that we ultimately benefit more by sharing resources than hording them, is an inherently political one. It's a challenge to the status quo of the economic system we all live under.
@@masaufuku1735 true
except "no politics" effectively means "pro status quo ONLY" which is very much a political stance.
@@masaufuku1735 keep politics out of an open source project by not discussing politics? Its fine if a particular part of politics is directly affecting the project, but there are other venues to have unrelated conversations. Especially seeing as political discussions are about as productive as KDE vs Gnome.
@@ThatBoogieman you can just... not talk about politics?
Nothing I've read about Vaxerski statements seems like serious stuff, it was just juvenile banter... A ban seems completely unmotivated.
i haven't heard of all this, but why should i care about the person's pronouns.... can they code? yes? thats the important thing as a coder.
As we can see here, Vaxry cared so much about someone's pronouns that they had the audacity to change them to (who/cares) and retract to ability to change the nickname and make fun of the person among other mods.
@@duckrinium vaxry literally did not do this. Moderator changed the nickname, and the restriction for changing it back was for everyone in the server, not just for this person.
@@dshindov He's just as responsible as if he would do himself in that case. It doesn't make it less sour to also acknowledge usage of slurs and saying stuff like "we just shitting on them". That still hurts just as much, even if it's the mod who did it. I am very upset at whoever did it.
@@duckrinium So what? You act as if you made a point.
@@duckrinium You're right, and he took responsibility for it, and things has changed over these 1.5 years (!), but it was long time ago and the quotes are even older. So
> As we can see here
no, we can't
I agree that people can be real a*holes online and that bullying people based on the way people look or who they are is not right and should be dealt with but some people also need to grow a thicker skin and stop being offended by anything.
any pics of who/cares ? i'd like to decide for myself
He did show them in the first 5 minutes
Plenty. Both vaxry and Drew DeVault include or link to screenshots in their blogs.
He's making changes and doing a little bit better but tbh idc about the situation. Vaxei should end the conversation with instating a rule that EVERYONE must use "they/them" and there is no further discussion about this stuff.. so we can focus on code
Or just a rule that people try to respect each other's pronouns? Why the hell is that so hard? Especially when someone puts them in their username.
@@masaufuku1735 Because not everyone even agrees with the validity, and all it it's going to do is involve relitigating discussion over and over again. Vaxry clearly doesn't want to keep an eye on this, so in the meantime force everyone use they/them and auto ban any further discussion
@@masaufuku1735that is already the rule, though? He was banned for not implementing the rule fast enough 2 years ago, remember? It was still implemented 2 years ago.
Is it wrong to ask to keep your politics, beliefs, and personal interests out of any community? Not toking in relation to this video/topic, but in general. Not only we have double standards, but things change all the time to whatever is popular for the day. Just don't talk about things that might be controversial, don't insult other people for any reason whatsoever, and don't demand for others to treat you are their friend.
I agree. We are here to make this corner of the world a better place for everyone, and such controversial topics are not helpful
The problem happens when people's existence and lives are redefined as political, making them unable to exist in those spaces in the same way others can.
@@TavishMcEwen “Political” is the wrong word for it. The correct one would be “off-topic”. I guess people use “political” exactly to get around being called “off-topic”
@@Arvigeus Yes, but "off-topic" isn't what was being banned, from what nico says atleast
@@TavishMcEwen The dev was an asshole. Doesn't matter on which side you stand in.
Okay i was in the process of writing my hyprland config. I will not continue and search for another one.
This is not an airport, you don't need to announce your departure.
Same energy as those who announce stop learning Rust because Rust foundation this and that. Very cringe.
@@khai96x nope there is a big difference the rust foundatiin just sucks and is not hostile against it's comunity members because of there Identifikation. But being hostile to people because they are different is not okay. You dont need to like it just tolarate it, they are humans to.
@@dustsucker4704
1. Is the author of hypr the one that actively does the harassment? Or is he just an incompetence community leader?
2. Should the world stop exporting products to the US because the US had created a lot of wars and suffering?
@@khai96x A fork of the Rust toolchain without the Jewish CoC would be nice...