A Military Analysis of the Battle of the B*****ds
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
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In the wildling attack on the Wall in season 4, there was a giant who used a massive bow that catapults a watchman on the wall half way to Winterfell, so they did have weapons.
So D&D happened in this episode.
Guess giant kinda forgot he can use a weapon.
Ginat with a bow, or an atilery weapon
Scythe, game over...
@@trauko1388 him throwing rocks would already be devastating
When a regular battle in Total War games more strategically sound, than in a 10million $ episode of GoT.
If I ever write a fantasy battle I'm testing it out on Total war first to make sure it isn't ridicules.
@@jackcohen4931 To be fair, I don't think Total War is that good either, but I suppose it's not too bad if you want to make sure it's not totally and utterly _ridiculous_
ridicules
@@aloadofbollocks988 It's the best franchise of the genre we currently got so I'm fine with that.
GoT pretended to be smart, many simply fell for it.
Me a total war player: I'm something of general myself
Jess Agpaoa yeah but you know, pulling cavalry through spearmen, letting two flanks change position, shooting into an ongoing melee without inflicting friendly fire, this all works pretty easy in total war. In “real” battle there are so many new difficulties a general needs to consider that total war doesnt teach you.
Nevertheless... artillery in the frontline?? .... I still dont get how any commander can be so dumb XD
Early 16th century cannons where often put on the frontlines, small 3-4lb ones that were just about as effective as a big musket.
@@seaghan6412 But catapults and trebuchets are firing in much greater arch, so they can fire over infantry, and can be positioned behind it without risk.
@@aristodemosii.1980
total war at least teaches to have your giant critter swing a club or somethibg.
Melvin Gehteuchdochnixan honestly I think even a very dumb giant would prefer to pick up a club or something. And use his feet. What would you do when a dog assaults you? Bow down and punch it with your hand? I would definitely rather kick it with my feet, already out of pure instincts.
Jon: All women are QUEENS!
Ramsay: If she breathes she's a THOT!
The Battle of the Extremes.
Oh look another xeno to purge!
...yes definitely
Biluan drone
ramsay: chaotic evil
jon:lawful good
*QUEEN MEDB: TRUE NEUTRAL*
In that kind of battle, I’d root for Ramsay ⚔️
It’s not that the armor matters. They regularly cut through it like paper in this show
Not the first season. Jorah vs a dothraki that was the best duel in the series for me!
Jorah wore plate armor, but he should have invested in some plot armor.
jorah explaining to the dothraki guy why the longsword was better than the arakh was both awesome and cringy: awesome because finally a mainstream production kinda recognizes armor and its purpose (so many use armor just as a decoration); but cringy because jorah is implying that a sword is built to "pierce" armor. Well you can't have everything can't you.
Edit: of course after some seasons they just said fuck it and went full stereotypical, so armor became useless and swords op. (cough cough assault of siege landing in season 8)
@@fuhduh2544 I think you can actually pierce mail with a sword.
@@eugenefrolov1396 yes in some instances you can, even if a spear is still the best option, but in that scene he kinda implies a sword could pierce plate armor (he was using his armor as an example if i remember correctly).
Jon ,,insert bad season 8 quote here'' Snow.
Jon "IDunWanId" Snow.
MUH QUEEN!
All they needed was a few days of Shogun 2 Total War. Then they can do much better battles.
Jon "Muh Queen" Snow had his entire character arc ruined by the final few seasons, so yeah, he is eternally tied to that abomination of a season.
At least Ramsey was already dead before Season 8, so we didn't have to see how he would have gone to shit.
@@nadrewod999 yeah, Ramsay in season 8 would somehow win Sansa's heart probably
As far as the filmakers are concerned killing as many people as quickly as possible is what constitutes good action, which is exactly what this battle sequence is.
Cue Daenerys going AWOL at King's Landing. All spectacle, no substance.
Also you know help is coming sooooo rip tension
>missile infantry on the front
>cavalry on the front
>charges that don't make much sense
Okay, I'm noticing a pattern here.
GoT was written by Total War AI?
@Nur ein weiterer Mann im Internet. Shogun 2 Yari Ki AI
Total war AI is more competent than the directors
Charge on medieval peroid is usual on war
@@sekarpertiwi4077 Contrary to popular belief, nope, not as often as u think
Giants have used weapons (clubs) in other episodes, such as the undead giant (presumably less intelligent) in the later battle of winterfell. I think that he just "kind of forgot about it" that he can use weapons.
Don't forget the giant with the huge bow that yeets a nights watch dude off the wall with the giant arrow
Forget about freacking weapons! Dun Dun could easily throw corpses as projectiles against pikemen Jon got a freacking war elephant/living catapult and he wasn't able to use him well. What a dumbass he was.
Giving wun wun a weapon would have made the battle too easy
@@Cz82 >Giving wun wun a weapon would have made the battle too easy
Correction, making wunwun a reasonable force multiplier for John's army like it should have been, would have made it hard for DandD to write around forcing Littlefinger to come to the rescue after Ramsay almost wins.
They had the end goal planned, that is John owing littlefinger 1... but no idea on how to get there.
The giant had levels in Monk, so wearing weapons would cost him bonus actions.
Scouts basically don't exist in GoT. I think they used them once or twice in 8 years. Same with the show Vikings... scouts just don't exist.
They used them in the early seasons when the writing was still good. Military competency seems to have died with Tywin Lannister though. You'll notice that's also the point at which the show takes a nosedive in overall quality.
@wearealltubes Uh... wat?
Tywin literally sat there in Harrenhal getting pissed off at unconvincing-basic-bitch false reports coming back to the Lannister forces about ''discontent'' in the Northern armies. He even quipped about discontent probably being reported by the Northern scouts and spies. Tywin spoke of how nobody was content in war. Scouts and spies do exist in Game of Thrones, but I get that in later seasons it just became too rushed and sloppy to care about that matter too much.
The Wildlings had scouts. They even had Wargs (the Greenseer kind, not the Tolkienian kind lol those borrowed names though :/ and yes I think GRR Martin definitely got ''Valar'' from, ''Valar Morgulis'' from the Valar Ainur in Tolkien -.- *coincidence? I think not!* )
This allowed them to scout ahead with birds of prey etc. They even show another group, the Thenns (I fucking hate Thenns) using a different Warg to use the same trick with another bird.
Wildlings aside, the Northerners, Lannisters and others from the Seven Kingdoms, certainly use scouts. Depending on your interpretation of the word, you could include outer pickets and watchmen observing a defensive position, in front of the main defences. This could include those Men of the Vale at the Bloody Gate. I know you're thinking more in a tactical sense, in the field, than staying in static defences, but that can involve raising the alarm before it is too late. For instance, if a guard is concealed behind a guard tower, and falls asleep on duty, they won't see what is coming and this can have a detrimental cause and effect result. Maybe the enemy get that little bit closer to the walls in the darkness of night, and cause more damage than they should before someone notices what is happening.
Back in Season 4, Yara/Asha attacked the Dreadfort in a ballsy move (30 Ironborn going after the 2nd greatest castle in the North, occupied by a psycho hobbit with hounds and hundreds of soldiers; what could go wrong?!) She caused confusion by taking out guards on the walls and battlements with her Ironborn, and bought enough time to find Theon.
Now, not to confuse the role of scout with sentry, I know that they are different; I'm just drawing parallels between the field strategy and defence strategy of field warfare and castle defence.
In other words, the sentries are the fortified position's eyes and ears, in a static defence.
Meanwhile, scouts of field armies are supposed to picket the area so that enemies trying to sneak up on the main force, aren't simply allowed through unchecked or unreported.
Then you have the whole issue about Varys the Spider, and his little birds; or Lady Olenna Tyrell, who had her own spy network third largest in Westeros behind Varys and Littlefinger's. Remember Ser Davos Seaworth saying that, ''Lord Varys knows what you had for breakfast'' to Matthos his ill-fated son back in Season 2? Implying that Varys knew everything that was happening and it had to be factored into their strategic planning.
Extending this beyond Westeros, the Dothraki certainly used scouts and outriders to scout out the way ahead and to screen their main advance. I don't think any army would be able to sneak up on Vaes Dothrak, lets just put it that way.
If we consider the Sons of the Harpy in Mereen to include spies who report on Unsullied troop movements and infiltrate public areas, sort of like terrorists and insurrectionists, that could be regarded as having tactical consequences.
For example, the Sons of the Harpy launched a wave of premeditated attacks on Unsullied patrols and guards all over Mereen, killing many (though as usual, the Unsullied respawned eh)
They didn't just blindly charge after Daenerys without first sneaking around and finding the best moments to try to use their more limited numbers to greater effect (like most rebellious insurrections play out) There was also that prostitute who worked for the Sons of the Harpy as a spy, luring Unsullied and Second Sons into honey traps to murder them, and misleading and throwing off Unsullied patrols with her innocent act.
Then we could cast our eye back to Westeros and consider the Dornish. Little if anything will pass their deserts and rocky canyons, without being seen. When Jaime and Bronn went to Dorne, they were betrayed by the ship captain that took them, and he tried to get a reward for the information of the hated Jaime Lannister being in Dorne (the Sand Snakes just killed him anyway) But on that information, which he'd been telling to soldiers first, a patrol was sent out. It soon scouted out the area where Jaime and Bronn had come ashore, and tracked their footprints in the dunes. Considering the patrol consisted of four light cavalrymen on fast Dornish stallions, I think it is safe to assume that they would use such units to scout ahead of their main forces.
During the First Dornish War, the Dornish were a fucking nightmare for the Targaryens and their bannermen (including the Baratheons and Tyrells; both of whom suffered appalling defeats to the Dornish when they tried to move on Sunspear) Orys Baratheon's army of the Stormlands got pinned down by two armies in the rocky Boneway through the Dornish Marches (think, Tatooine and the Jundland Wastes)
Dornishmen had clearly been spying on them and tracking their progress, allowing them to advance seemingly unopposed for days, before harassing them for days and days to follow with hit and run attacks using javelins, slinger stones and arrows to rain death on the marching columns. Melting away, the Stormlanders struggled to even make contact with the enemy and could only defend themselves as best they could. But then the Dornish formed up in front of and behind the depleted Stormlanders, trapping them on the narrow roads, and forcing them to surrender. Orys was captured and tortured with his men to the brink of sanity, and eventually ransomed back to Aegon the Conqueror (his reputed half-brother) for his own weight in gold.
Most others who survived the battle to be captured, were not so fortunate, never being seen again.
Speaking of which; the army of Harlan Tyrell, marching into Dorne from the Reach, intended to do what Orys could not and take the capital of Dorne after going from town to town. But clearly, the Dornish knew they were coming and fell back, deserting every single town. On they marched, and still nothing. No food, no sign of the people, nothing of note save for the Tyrell soldiers getting increasingly tired and thirsty even while barely beginning their ordeal.
At that point they tried to cross the Dornish deserts *proper* in the interior, en route to Sunspear; they were never seen (alive) again, vanishing wholesale like a ghost army.
The marching sand dunes occasionally reveal the bones of long fallen Tyrell troops, though. A combination of extreme exhaustion, exposure and being outclassed in desert warfare (unsurprisingly) would have been the cause of their deaths. Clearly, at every single step of the way, the Dornish had Harlan's forces well under control and they literally would have ran rings around them in the deserts. It is basically the GoT answer to the Battle of the Horns of Hattin.
Then we can look at the Brotherhood Without Banners, whom certainly used scouts to stay one step ahead of their hunters (not always successfully, considering the Mountain was after them half the time)
Speaking of the Lannisters, when the 8,000 Lannister army contingent commanded by Jaime and Bronn arrived at Riverrun, even as late as Season 6, they scolded the slovenly and ineffective Freys for not only their shoody and pathetic attempts at siege warfare, but their lack of scouts to screen for approaching armies. In Bronn's eloquent prose, ''You'd be getting fooked in the arse now if we weren't on the same side" or something like that (I paraphrase) Jaime was also pissed off with the incompetent Freys for not even posting sentries/scouts to cover their rear. It is just basic military tactics 101 of course and the Freys didn't know fuck all about it.
Lastly, I think it is fair to consider the Night King and Bran. Their scouting is, well, next level obviously lol and all the Three Eyed Ravens before Bran too, including Bryden Rivers of course. All insanely omnipresent. So there is that.
Remember, now that Bran is King, Westeros is basically a surveillance state nightmare lol Bran don't need to worry about scouts (he sees all)
But yes I agree GoT went downhill in many ways, including this one.
P.S - Also remember when Robb Stark deliberately let a captured Lannister spy, who'd been counting the approximate number of men in Robb Stark's army, go free back to Tywin's forces. This was massively controversial to Robb's own Lords who chided him (particularly the Greatjon Umber) Even Catelyn was visibly shocked at letting him go (Umber was loudly talking about him not leaving with his head) Instead, partly out of mercy and partly out of strategy (more the latter) Robb, let him go.
This was done deliberately to make Tywin very sure that his forces were definitely going one way. It was misdirection; making the Lannisters think Robb a fool for bragging about his intentions to go after Tywin (basically, acting like a predictable young fool while actually tricking them and diverting forces)
beayn. Yeah, remember in season 6 when Bronn made fun of the Freys for not having scouts watching their rear saying that they'd be getting screwed if they weren't allies? Then next season he's leading the Lannister army and he doesn't hear about the Dothraki ambush until he can physically hear their horses hoof beats...
Great job BRONN.
@@ThePalaeontologist warg is just anglo-saxon for wolf
In the books, Ramsay wears plate armor with red color. It would have been nice for him to wear something like that in the show.
I think the reason why was to represent a skinned man. Aslo it would be call for jon to wear a wolf based armour painted white
@@tylerghersinich576 Indeed. Jon could have had some decent armor. Heck, in my rewrite of Game of Thrones, Dany had a set of black Valyrian Steel armor designed after the Kingsguard armor only with a Targaryen red dragon on the chest made out of rubies, and when Jaime Lannister becomes Azor Ahai in my story(I chose him to be the Chosen One instead of Arya or Jon), his Lannister armor gets transformed into gold-colored armor similar to the 40K Emperor of Mankind to go along with Lightbringer.
@@HolyknightVader999 Sounds better than we got last season. Though my rewrite involves my homebrew 40K Space Wolf successor chapter taking over the planet during season 5, using Northmen and Wildlings aspirants as they are compatible with our geneseed, making Jon a battle brother (represented on tabletop as a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf a.k.a Ghost with a power sword and storm shield), and then purging all the stupidity of D&D.
The reason why i think he should have a wolf based armour was to show the north that he has accepted the responsibility of being a stark but showing he is a bastard as well. It would have been nice for the lord of white harbour to push jon to take up the armor he was making for robb and have the crown of winter reforged into a helmet shape like a wolf
They stopped using real plate armor after the first season. It was probably too expensive for their costuming department. Which is why we're stuck with weird fetish leather and pseudo-brigandine.
The guy telling you the story doesn't remember things well enough. Sansa didn't tell Jon to ask for help from the Vale. She was bitching that they didn't have enough men and when Jon asked for an alternative she said she didn't have any. She withheld information from Jon, which lead to the death of Rikkon and many of Jon's men. D&D turned Sansa into a terrible person because in their little minds this is how a strong character plays the game.
I was confused for a second when he said that Sansa suggested to get help from the Vale and Jon refused. I was thinking: "wait, Sansa never even mentions the Vale could help she just withholds that information like the cunt she is which leads to the countless Northmen and Free Folk dying along with her own brother and possibly Jon- if the battle went South."
This is another reason why Sansa didn't deserve to be queen of the North and should have been usurped or assassinated by the Northern lords at the end of the show because her claim to the thrown makes no sense.
Ya pretty much much my second biggest complaint about this battle is Sansa’s hinderance behind Jon’s men allowing themselves to get surrounded for no apparent reason. I mean most are blood thirsty wildlyings who probably just engage whatever they saw not let them walk around them
In their little minds the game is won by doing jackshit and being the least involved member. Just ask Bran.
@@alexman378 Watch Preston Jackobs' season 8 re-write to see how an intelligent person writes the story. I think you will like it. Bran does stuff in this version. Imagine that.
@@ΓιάννηςΝικολάου-η5ω I've seen many fan written versions of the end, they're all significantly better. I've never been a huge fan of the show but most of these endings caused me goosebumps. Hell, I'm sure I could come up with a better ending, based solely on satisfactory narrative, even though I'm not an expert or a big fan on the show.
It never makes sense when the villain's minions just shrug their shoulders when he kills one of their comrades. Like is the pay really that good that you'll stick around and fight till the death to defend such a mad man?
With Ramsay it's probably a culture of fear. It's like North Korea. Why do the people not revolt when they're starving to death and their homes only have electricity for 50% of the year? It's because they can't organize such a thing. Why can't they organize such a thing? Because to organize such a thing you have to tell of your intention to revolt to other people, but there's an enormous danger that one of those people will run to the authorities and snitch on you, at which point you get to watch your entire family tied to wooden stakes and executed by firing squad, then you get tortured to death.
Same with Ramsay's men. You tell a fellow soldier you're organizing a coup because you're sick of his brutality. There's a 75% chance that guy is going to think "Huh, if I tell Ramsay about this he'll reward me, but if I go along with the coup the next person we try to recruit will go to Ramsay and tell him, then I get flayed along with the first guy".
It’s not even that, who is to tell you that you’re not next?
They just got to say "I am disappointed" in an epic enough manner so that every minon secretly looks forward to the next execution as long as it's not their own.
@@Aethelhald yeah but in Norh Korea, there are very few times where you're standing right next to Kim Jon Un and he tells you to shoot your own men. Whilst you're also 100m from the south Korean army.
@@Aethelhald still, you would expect the desertion rate from Ramsey's army to be pretty high .
At least Ramsay isn't saying fire when ordering his archers to loose their arrows
In Season 8 during Episode 5 where Drogon attacked Kings Landing, the Lannister Soldiers with the Scorpions fucking said "Fire!".
The Cringe i felt during that, was not from this world.
@@user-mc6nm1ru3o just another reason to be disappointed in season 8
It's frustrating how whenever a fantasy movie has some kind of massive creature, such as giants, they always make the same mistake, and fall into the same trap: Adding in unintentionally world breaking concepts because it's "fantasy."
They seem to think, "Hey, giants are cool, and they're a fantasy trope, lets throw those in. Build them up to be really powerful and dangerous. They are incredibly large after all."
But when it comes to actually showcase how dangerous a giant can be, they suddenly realize that giants represent a massive (pun intended) power imbalance, and instead opt to handicap them for no reason that makes sense in the story.
When I see a giant, I see the ultimate trump card;
-Give him something big to throw, like a log or some large rocks, and it will devastate massed infantry from close range, creating a gap that can be exploited.
-Give him a massive shield, and archers are mostly useless, with a similar result.
-As for cavalry, he's much bigger than the horses, they are hardly a threat to him. All he needs is a big club to make him a walking deterrent to a charge.
He is literally a hard counter to every basic military tactic.
This is SO UNBELIEVABLY OBVIOUS it creates the impression that either the characters are stupid and incompetent, or the writers are stupid and incompetent. Probably both. And now you've lost the audience.
Edit: This is an old comment, but it's been getting a lot of traffic lately, so I think I'll clarify.
I did not mean to say that a giant would be some sort of unstoppable killing machine. Of course there are ways to bring it down (Pike's, etc).
My point is, that a logical tactician would deploy them in a way that would maximize their effectiveness, but there was apparently no thought given to this by the writers.
The first thing would be to equip them with some sort of weaponry and armor. There would certainly be cost limitations, but even a tree branch could be very effective against massed infantry. A single swing could injury a half dozen men or more.
The second thing would be to deploy them to do a specific job.
Breaking a massed infantry formation with logs or boulders so that your infantry can exploit the breach is a simple enough tactic.
A skilled tactician would also consider how valuable the giant is, and try to protect it. Personally, I would keep it in reserve, and then bring it in to hit a vulnerable flank, or break an enemy formation.
The way the giant was used in this show was largely ineffective, and completely illogical. And to me, that indicates that the writers did not fully consider the implications of introducing it to the battle.
Poison Arrows would have been a clever tactic i think. The series could have shown how Ramsey ordered his personal alchemist to collect the most poisonous plants and make a tincture out of it. There could have also been a scene, where Ramsey tested the dosage on a normal human to know how much to apply to the arrows to kill WunWun (it also shows again how ruthless this mf is).
Ballistae could probably do some big damage on giants like Wun Wun
How is a massive giant with a shield standing above everyone sticking out like a sore thumb a harder target a regular joe with a shield? Especially while it's trying to throw rocks. Really though, all you'd need is a few pikes to kill a giant.
I feel like the best thing to do would be to give the giant a halberd or a bardiche sized for him, I'd imagine a giant could swing it with sufficient force to cleave through a man in armor and the horse he was riding on for good measure.
@@Jacob-ge1py unless he breaks the pikes with his big club, that wouldnt be hard, you would need to surround the giant but Wun Wun never separates himself from Jon's army, and a guant with a shield (even a wooden door with leather straps works) can block a lot of arrows and protect many men behind him, arrows cant penetrate a wooden door easily so you dont even need to make him a proper shield that would take time
Wun Wun should have had a giant hockey stick.
A giant schyte
Should have given him a sling, just fill it with 50 pounds of fist sized stones, and you have the fantasy equivalent of a rapid fire grape-shot cannon.
I see someone has read up on GRRM's inside joke.
First.
NO!!!
third
15th lol
Sir, I do think thou art stream sniping
936th.
"This will be difficult if the citizenry thinks you're an evil madman" - Understatement of the millenium. This is why some 'evil' characters are just too evil to be decent characters
Even in the TV version the Northerners knew Ramsay was evil and insane. They hated him. The key difference between the TV adaptation and books, being that the Northerners were way more proactive in their resistance to Ramsay in the books, whereas in the show Jon struggles to find support (Stannis faced the same situation prior; even though, this won't be fully explained until Winds of Winter is finished and that the book version will differ wildly most likely)
Sticking just with the TV version, the Northerners have already seen Ramsay do the following, prior to the Battle of the Bastards:
- Skin people alive and hang their bloodied corpses from the walls of Winterfell on public display (strung up, nailed up or even just left piled around on wooden carts)
- Demand taxes harshly e.g. at Castle Cerywn. Basically treating them like filth.
- Brutally skinning the entire family alive bar one son who was left visibly traumatised.
- Keep the broken wreck of Theon Greyjoy as ''Reek'' as a servant/slave walking around looking traumatised and sleeping in the kennels.
- Marry the daughter of the beloved Ned Stark (the very suggestion that Ramsay was reportedly raping Arya in the books - long story, wasn't her - was a major reason for the growing hatred for him, understandably) i.e. in the messed up events in the show, Sansa being the victim.
- Openly threaten to feed the Lords and Lady on Jon's side to his hounds.
- Clearly rule the North with an iron fist using cruel methods with no concern for other houses.
- Form an alliance with traitors to House Stark (Smalljon Umber and Harald Karstark) which was extra contentious and resented by Northerners because those houses, Umber and Karstark, were formerly strongly loyal to House Stark (making their betrayal, egged on by Ramsay, all the more disgusting for them)
Additionally, let us not forget that Roose Bolton himself had a reputation even in the TV show and basically nobody particularly liked the Boltons. Even Smalljon Umber called Roose a cunt.
Plus, lest we forget, the Bolton's role in the Red Wedding had pissed off half of Westeros.
Clearly, the Northerners didn't *think* that Ramsay was evil and crazy; they downright *knew* he was. Which is why the TV version is a bit disappointing. The whole Manderly thing, the Northern conspiracy against the Boltons etc. It all got brushed under the carpet for D&D's fixation on Jon Snow and Daenerys. Shame.
P.S - Stannis was robbed too :p *never forget never forgive*
Coming back to this vid (and therefore this comment), I can now say we have an irl example of an inexplicable lack-of a-mutany with Trump despite how loudly reviled he was /is by so many. Nobody did anything. Or anything effective, at least, that know of. *shrug* So I guess it's no longer entirely unbelievable in GoT, just suspect and poorly written. But that's redundant to say of one part of GoT when we all already know that that applies to most if not all of the show anyway depending on in which season one feels it grasped the idiot-ball and refused to let go.
To be fair, at least the stupidity in this battle was relatively character-driven compared to the next season
"If you put a helmet on a main character in a film, the audience won't be able to recognize him." Apparently people forgot about Darth Vader, Boba Fett, Master Chief, Isildur, Iron Man, and many other dudes with helmets in movies and other media.
There are two things that are being overlooked in this situation:
The first is that it costs to produce armor, as well as time to figure out the designs that look unique for each character.
the other is that you have to put your stars in probably bulky and heavy armor for long shoots, and the stars are probably refusing because they would have to work out and such to actually wear that armor.
@@hariman7727 Are you kidding? Main characters in movies wear armor all the time. Heck, Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, all wear armor. All you need is to give them helmets like what Gregor Clegane or Sandor Clegane had. Sandor even had a unique dog-motif helmet that was emblematic of his house.
@@HolyknightVader999 it depends on the actor. Some of them are utter prima donnas.
in this case, it's much more likely that the showrunners just didn't care enough to put Jon Snow and Ramsay in armor.
...
Great. now I'm imagining game of thrones of Gordon Ramsay were somehow starring an isekai anime set in the game of thrones universe.
@@hariman7727 Probably that. Actors love having their faces shown.
@@hariman7727 actual medieval armour was never heavy.
I have seen poorly-led/undisciplined troops react exactly how Jon's army did when surrounded in LARP battles. We call it the doughnut of death, and it continues until a ref makes us back off 'cause they're crushing each other. When people start to panic, the herd instincts take over and they all try to back away from the scary weapons (yes, even if they're made of foam). So to me it looks pretty realistic, as all it needs to happen is for the surrounded side not to have good commanders and aggressive troops to push flanking attempts back before they can close. That said, in Ramsay's situation I would have used my archers a lot more, as a tight, penned-in foe is about the best target you can get.
Ramsey had The high ground, and if not in that ironic referencing revenge of the sith way, but in that actual major battle advantage way.
He gave those advantage up when he charged his troops down the hill.
one thinks of cannae where the roman veterans (3 legions worth) broke out of the encirclement but the less experienced legionnaires were slaughtered.
spineyrequiem But the wall itself is just stupid
Would you be using archers even when the armies clashed? Wouldn’t that put your own people in danger?
@@alexman378 Yeah, but there's a big blob of people in the way to absorb arrows. you're unlikely to hit your own side if you're shooting flat. Barring exceptionally bad luck.
To be fair, the Bolton men and banners would probably mutiny in the books so good job! :)
There's a slim chance that GRRM finally writes the books, but I don't want to get your hopes up.
Your Imperial Majesty: Concerning the knight question at c. ~14:10
The idea of knights in Westeros is a firmly southern idea which the North doesn't really subscribe to. I'm uncertain if the otherwise very feudal system in which the North runs on simply has knight-analogues by a different name or if the idea is discounted entirely; but, whatever the reason, knights are very rare in the North, and significant numbers of them are only present at the port city of White Harbor, which isn't as culturally Northern as the rest of the... well, North. The cavalry present at this battle are almost certainly all men-at-arms and mounted yeomanry.
Furthermore, I'm uncertain if this particular detail made it into the show (I don't watch the show), but in the books, Ramsay's position is extremely tenuous. Most of the major and moderate nobility of the North (at least, in the books) are conspiring against House Bolton (which has a not-unfounded reputation for ruthlessness and cruelty), which usurped the position as Lords of the North away from the very beloved and respected House Stark; furthermore, Ramsay himself is both a bit of an idiot and a hardcore psychopath - or at least a sadist. Killing off his own soldiers in a shortsighted attempt to ensure that those same soldiers don't turn on him after the battle is won is completely in-character for Ramsay Snow. It's bad tactics, but it's completely in-character.
In a SoIaF knighthood has to do with the Faith of the Seven so very few Northerners are knighted, however the North does have cavalrymen who are said to be knights in all but name.
When someone turns my Total war tactic of running disloyal generals bodyguard units at 20 stack enemy forces (when I can't bribe them) to get rid of them into a tactic.
Rodrick Cassel master at arms at winterfell was a Knight training knights. so there are at least a few in the North
To be a knight you have to be anointed with the holy oils of the seven so, since most northern houses follow the old gods, knights are rare in the North. It is mentioned that in Robb Stark's army of 14,000 Northern soldiers there are around 4000 mounted soldiers but only 300ish knights. I think that knights basically run a "holdfast" so the North still has "knights" nut they just aren't actually knighted and probably have some other name.
@@9822703 he was a knight because he likely extinguished himself in a previous battle of war (I don't think it's ever stated when he was knighted), and he trained people to fight as knights would, not necessarily training them to BE knights.
You didnt mention ramsays archers dissapeared while jons army was pushed together, when they wouldve killed SOOO many soldiers
They probably ran away if u see your comrades crushed in 2 seconds and those who crushed them are cavalry they would run the shit away before gettin killed by cavalru
12:25 This was actually utilized in medieval times and trained by knights, at least as far as we can trust medieval literature and texts. Usually some knights would crash into each other while another portion would ride through and then make the most important maneuver of knightship: a turn. The goal was to stay as long as possible on your horse and hold your momentum, while knocking the other knights out of their seats.
So from a historical perspective: Yes, this could be a sound military tactic in a medieval setting. However, medieval knights were also usually better armored than your typical fantasy horseman. This kind of military maneuver is the reason why knights would ride into each other on tournaments as well.
you know the tourney thing with lances? yeah that what they were training for. of course they didn't directly crash their horses into the other but to try to unseat the opposing knight with the lance as they cross.
Stannis Baratheon: "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
Stannis the Mannis would have crushed Ramsay Snow and taken Winterfell if the writers didn't have their heads shoved up their ass.
Truth brother, you know dae wae
It's a shame that TV Stannis kind of forgot to use scouts to monitor Winterfell before he marched there.
3:44 You saying we can craft obsidian and skip cobblestone, iron and diamond
Hollywood tactics for at least half the battle, but also some good tactics, and good character work. Not bad, but could be better.
You know what I wish screenwriters would do more? Play tabletop games. Like make up some rules (or use Warhammer), fit the units you want to use in the movie into the game, and play a few rounds. Logical strategies will come naturally as you get a feel for the battle. Afterwards write it up a bit, add some epic scenes and you have an epic, but logical battle.
Question will you ever review the
Battle of the wall season 4 episode 9 which is a amazing episode or review battle of black water which season 2 episode 9 and if you do review these 2 might as well do the long night season 8 episode 3
in books most of soldiers in nights watch had chainmail so the show could have shown some commanders be better armoured than the average soldier Lotr portrayed it greatly with Theoden
D&D have absolutely no comprehension of medieval warfare and didn't bother asking.
Knightstruth They act like they are the smartest people on earth. They are too arrogant to ask for advice.
@@user-uy1rg8td1v Very unfortunate. But fully believable.
To be fair almost no one does.
You are my Queef.
Jon actually didn't know about the Knights of the Vale at all. Sansa never told him. What she did tell him was that he should have requested aid from Lord Cerwyn, another Northern Lord who could at best contribute another few hundred men to Jon's cause. Jon didn't think the time it would take to contact Cerwyn and wait for Cerwyn to send him men was worth it, especially when he might not even answer the call, and in this time Bolton could grow even stronger.
Who needs plate armors when you've got plot armor
Since Ramsay generously built a mountain of corpses for the encirclement, I'm sad Wun Wun didn't use a corpse as a bat or at least try to hurl a couple of them into the formation to disrupt it.
The leather dress the Northerners wear is supposed to be leather with steel plates sown into it. Which is what the square bits are meant to represent.
Jon’s armour is leather but it has steel plates in between the front and back layers of leather
KingEmperorPenguin, I have to disagree with you on a few points.
1. At about 16 minutes when you say that Ramsay's infantry tactics are sound enough. I have to disagree because Ramsay is using pikes and the way the Pikemen are presented, they are not using Pikes the right way. First off let me clarify that there are two types of pike formations, the Macedonian phalanx, and the ones used during the 17th and 16th centuries with the Spanish Tercio's and Swiss pikemen. The one in here is almost certainly based on the Macedonian style and not the style of the Spanish and Swiss. This is where the problem begins and it's because that is not how a Macedonian pike phalanx works, the Macedonian Phalanx is supposed it has units of 128 men, 8x16 rows and the Boltons certainly do not have that, they have less than that and there are only perhaps 2-3 ranks of pikes which is not enough to stop an infantry charge. The point of the phalanx is to push all the momentum on the front, a Macedonian phalanx is supposed to be a moving wall of spears and a multilayered one that can have about 4-6 pikes in front of the frontline of pikes. this means they would have multiple attacks going on at once. Because Ramsay doesn't have this his line will collapse if it receives even the slightest bit of pressure.
2. Ramsay placing his Cavalry in the center is ok, Jon placing the Cavalry the center is not and this is because Ramsay has the cavalry, infantry, missile, and numbers advantage. Also assume the Bolton cavalry do charge, what group of people would historically be in the center of a medieval, classical, and Hellenistic army? The infantry. What does Jon have for infantry? Nothing but lightly armor wilding troops who have never been in an actual formation and would get crushed at the first charge of a heavy cavalry unit. What would Jon's cavalry be able to do if they charged the center? They would get killed by the infantry and skirmishers, who are in actual formations and have battlefield experience fighting other professional armies of the period. Now Jon could have used his apparent weakness to gain an advantage, mainly by training his troops weeks ahead to deal with a cavalry charge and train his troops how to slowly give ground. When the cavalry charged, Jon could have told his troops to give some ground and then his cavalry to rearcharge the enemy cavalry and wipe them off the field, giving him complete control of the battlefield.
3. I believe the battle is bad mainly because Ramsay's incompetence is too much to handle. I know he is not the smartest bird but his father should have taught him a thing or two about politics and commanding. Ramsay did not need to fight, Ramsay could have easily waited in his Castle or performed a night attack and his troops are professional enough to travel in the dark. Also, the battle has no tension because we already saw Jon die once and with DnD writing it, they are unlikely to kill everyone's favorite characters.
4. You can critique the heroes for doing incredible feats in this series, its GOT, the writer loves it when characters die.
Other than that; awesome video.
1. Ramsay likely doesn't have enough men for a proper phalanx of sufficient width.
4. No. GRRM loves it when characters die meaningfully. Dieing to a random peasant isn't meaningful.
@@Mike-ukr 1. Then why have them make a pike phalanx at all? If it's lacking it is inefficient so that is just worse than not making a phalanx, even a shield wall is possible and Ramsay has about 6k men he can always make a huge shieldwall or even a regular spear phalanx.
4. Im pretty sure he would rather see a person who is in a stupid situation die because of it rather than live due to plot.
This battle proved what an inept military commander Jon Snow is.
Damn right
He's a soldier,not a commander
*Battle of the Mustards.
I think it would've been a funnier title.
Or Custards; now there is a fight for the ages (I pick Ambrosia's personally lol)
If the giant had any kind of weapon (even some large rocks) the battle would "realistically" only last a few minutes unless it resulted in a seige...which could still end really quickly with a properly armed giant.
Yeah, seriously, one swing with a club like weapon from a creature of that size, and 15-20 men would go flying.
Rome VS Hannibal: Scouting is boring and undignified
Julius Caesar VS Everyone: Scouting is essential to winning wars and battles
Jon "I don't want it, she's my queen, I'm not a Stark" Stark
I'm sorry, but if even someone utterly removed from any real life military experience like me is screaming at the screen: "MOVE PEOPLE! WHY DON'T YOU FU***** MOVE!" something is wrong.
I was completely taken out of that battle at the point, where the spearmen easily surrounded John's troops. These are not non-combatants, that get surrounded at that point and the Onion Knight and John Snow were both able enough to make battlelines, dividing their forces into different groups (like archers, infantry and cavelary) making everyone who saw this believe, that they were depicted as generals leading a military force.
Watching them letting themselves be surrounded without any resistance and just watching baffled at what is happening was a shattering any suspension of disbelieve I had left.
...and it would not have been difficult to fix for the script writers.
For example: Ramsy could orders his spearmen to surround the fighting men, while his cavalery is fighting and dying, overwhelmed by the superior numbers of John's forces. It would be much more believable and in character for all involved and you could come to the same end of the scene with even more or less the same visuals.
Jon had no idea about the Knights of the Vale being there .
My memories of this show are that armor is literally useless. Characters easily get stabbed and sliced through armor and die.
The armor Jon is (supposedly) wearing is a coat of plates.
For those who don't know, a coat of plates is a form of segmented torso armor consisting of overlapping metal plates riveted inside a cloth or leather garment.
Only reason to fire into a melee is if you know for a fact your forces won't win on their own so now you have the "friendly fire bad" vs "can only get better by applying arrows to the situation" argument. Firing into an undecided fight, or even worse, one that looks good, it phenominally stupid.
In the book everyone in the nights watch has chainmail, and they have huge stockpiles due to their manpower shortage
none of the horsemen are knights, the north doesnt have knights however there are often lords in the northern cavalry, in the bolton cavalry the only lord present was lord karstark so yeah ramsey is pretty much murdering like the 4th most powerful lord in the north lol
They wrapped the metal plate in leather in the north because of the cold. He's actually wearing armor it is just done wrong in the show.
It's funny how your disclaimer mentions that characters can have extraordinary luck and such in generic fantasy. Yeah, remember when Game of Thrones WASN'T generic fantasy? I do.
You just remember the times when Martin’s material was adapted. After they got out of that territory, it just became fan fiction.
@@alexman378 You're right. In retrospect it feels like the problems started when they omitted the Tysha confession that should have gone at the end of S4, and made Tyrion into a bastion of pure-hearted goodness rather than a complex and morally grey character.
You ought to purchase one of the Total War games and do a Let’s Play. I think it’d be interesting and fun for you and the subscribers.
The creator of this video put in a lot of effort but ultimately went pretty easy on it. Could've been a lot more punishing.
It's basically a gambison with metal plates in it
Shirt plate 🤦♂️ 🤷♂️
Military Analysis of the hour long tank battle in girls und panzer der film
Never got why in a wide open plain did they have huge hills of bodies. Even in a pass battle like Thermopylae didnt have huge hills of bodies in the aftermath but still it was fun to watch
You know nothing about war horses, they kick and bite, never think a horse is nice
If Wun wun was in lord of the rings or the hobbit, for sure I can guarantee if he was on the orcs side, they would definitely be armoring him up and giving him a bludgeon weapon
The most important not said; those piles of bodies CANNOT be made. When someone dies, stays in the ground. Those piles can only be constructed when someone has time and not in the fury of the battle. Then the other that did not take part in the battle; THE FUCKING NUMBERS. Ramsay had over than half Jon’s army. It is mentioned that Jon has 2.500 people. 2 thousand were infantry of wildlings and lets say 100 archers northmen. That leaves us with approximately 400 cavalry men. Ramsay has 6.000 troops. So the cavalry would have 2.000 men. Jon’s men would have been a feast for the crows in one blow. But lets say that Ramsay only has 1.000 cavalry men and that the battle would have been matched with the blows of arrows. Then he could easily win sending 5.000 of infantry against the wildlings. Instead of this, in the upcoming battle with the spears, there a panoramic shot indicating that Ramsay even has least men. So so so pathetic...
War Counsel: Jon, Ramsay is going to try to bait you to abandon your advantageous position by manipulating your emotions, DONT FALL FOR IT!
Jon: Ok.
Counsel: SERIOUSLY, our only hope is to stick to our plan, we have fewer men and the only thing going for us is strategy. Don't let your emotions get ahead of you.
Jon: I heard you.
*cue actual battle and Rickon dies
Jon: LEEEERRROOYYYY JEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNKINS!
You have bought in to the basic fallacy that the writers on Game of Thrones were not stoned into high earth orbit whenever they were working on the scripts in question. After the first four or five episodes of season one the show runners, D & D were utterly inconsistent in the story lines/plots & they just got worse the farther one goes into the series. The show runners basically butchered a moderately coherent lot line from Martin "because it'll be cool on screen".
22:25 because you dont bring characters back to life for them to die again
*[Laughs in Muhammad Avdol]*
If a scout sees knights of the vale and they get seen by knights of the vail
Maybe just maybe the knights of the vale saw the scout chased the scout
My main issues with the battle are:
1. Where did Jon get all those cavalry? From what is mentioned, only a few minor northern lords support him (a couple of hundred men if I recall correctly) while the bulk of his army are wildlings who fight on foot). Meanwhile, the Boltons have a massive cavalry force, as shown in Season 5 (against Stannis) which is estimated to be 2000 strong (by some viewers). It's absurd then that he was able to match Ramsay's cavalry without all the lightly armoured and poorly equipped wildlings being steamrolled by Bolton horsemen.
2. How did the Vale forces make it past Moat Cailin and get to Winterfell so quickly? It's a near impenetrable crossing to the North - when the Ironborn took it, Robb Stark found himself cut off and trapped in the Riverlands. There's no way Littlefinger could have so rapidly taken it from the Boltons and made it to Winterfell in such a short amount of time.
These logistical issues are some of the reasons that earlier seasons of GoT are superior in quality, mainly because those are the seasons based on the actual writing of George RR Martin who tends to care about such details (unlike D&D who, by Season 6, where practically making up the story as they went along).
Nothing about the silliness of the huge pile of the dead bodies!!??
Judge Dredd: "I'm wondering when you'd remember you left your helmet behind."
This battle is the one of the most stupid military thing I’ve ever seen. I understand tension but this is clearly not understanding Medieval warfare. Well battles of season 7 and 8 are even worse.
What annoys me most is Sansa. She could have called up the Knights of the Vale at ANY time and they would have vastly outnumbered the Boltons and crushed them handedly. Or at least put Winterfell to siege. But she took till almost all the north forces were dead to show up. This made me think that she intentionally waited to intervene, maybe a Baelish-esq ploy to decimate the old guard of the north so she could seize control. But nope, she just took her time for dramatic visuals.
Can you make a Video about the final Battle in Narnia?
Commenting on your point at 12:30, the impact of the strike is the entire point of the charge. They would have been going at full tilt with lances, not swords or small Spears. The Frankish charge is supposed to take out one opponent per rider when done right. Given the superior forces, this does seem to be an appropriate tactic. Also, considering that the majority of the officers and nobility would be in the cavalry, it might make sense to preemptively destroy the horsemen while they were isolated rather than allow them to retreat where they can command the infantry. If he waited to take advantage of the slope, they could have swept up John and corrected his mistake by getting him back to their line
I do think Jon Snow is a near liability as a battlefield commander, but part of that is his arc; he's just a soldier who ends up on a pedestal. He has little tactical nouse (Because he is just a soldier) and so his moves are kind of predictable. Ramsay Bolton, being the shrewd, intelligent manipulator he is, plays Jon like a fiddle the entire time. It's a well done battle, and visually superb, but from the character point of view; Jon Snow ( to put it kindly) is not a military commander. I think it would be unfair to call him stupid, but he does need Admiral Ackbar to shout in his ear! Give that man a sword, put him at the front of an army and people will follow him from one hell to another. Ask him to devise a sound strategy and stick to it and everyone is going to die.
Personally I think the battle is a good watch and the tactics while not the best work because they do fit the characters and mistakes are punished (on a strategic level).
The problem I have with this is the insane sheet of plot armour John is wearing. He didn't bother wearing proper armour because he legit doesn't have to. He has no shield because he knows he is perfectly fine without one.
The amount of certain death scenarios he got himself into (by making big mistakes himself) is incredible and completely breaks any immersion I had watching this, because he easily shrugs them all off, suffering no worse then a bruise!
GoT was once known for consequences. You made mistakes so you pay, often with your own life, even if you are a main character. This battle officially marks the end of that. GoT at this points was at a downwards trajectory but this battle marks the beginning of the real downwards spiral as characters become immortal by being important and mistakes no longer have any meaning. (the ever weaker dialogue and poor story telling (relative to earlier seasons) only worsened this problem)
The Bolton Phalanx is complete horseshit. There are way too few lances to create a meaningful effect. The Macadinian Phalanx didn't have rows of Pavis shield carrying dummys in front. You nicely pointed out how the lancers could not ever stab anyone but the giant because they don't see shit. Its so fucking stupid that any of Johns man could step between two spears and break them one after the other. It's just sad because the pike phalanx tactik is a great concept for the battle. But why did they think they had to reinvent the wheel? Just show me a classic fucking sarissa phalanx and I climb that mountain of body's faster than you can say Phillipp the second of Macedon.
14:02 The North don't actually have Knights, it's a southern practice tied to the south's religion (the Faith of the Seven / the New Gods, whereas the North still worships the Old Gods of the Forest). The exception being Jorah "the-Andal-but-not-really" Mormont, who isn't involved in this battle.
give the Giant a basic pike or somthing!!! he would just swing it around from a safe distance with plenty of force.
Just pick up bodies from the pile and toss them at the line, 80 kilos worth of man and armour can do a lot of damage.
So 2 main points I’d like to address. 1) Ramsey might not be entirely mad by loosing arrows on his own soldiers. One scenario I can see is that he put his rebellious and problem causing nobles in the cavalry charge and is taking out 2 birds with one arrow. Cruel? Totally. Senseless? Not really. And 2) Davos could have totally brought his archers forward so they’d be able to loose upon Ramsey’s archers instead of just sitting back and doing nothing. Also him charging forth with his archers is also stupid as archers typically aren’t equip to take out men at arms, and if he didn’t charge forth with them then the Starks would have had a group of forces outside of the medieval phalanx(???) horse shoe. And I’m sure we all know phalanx’s are slow, cumbersome, and really don’t like to be hit in the back.
I’m pretty sure Sansa didn’t actually suggest they ask the Vale for help she just said something like we don’t have enough men to win this. Jon said something like what would you have me do and she replied I don’t know I don’t know anything about war but we can’t win which was both confusing and stupid. The only reason I know Sansa didn’t mention the Vale is I’ve been complaining it since this episode came out because Sansa not saying anything probably got 50% or more of Jon’s army killed.
The cavalry of the North usually contained only a few "proper" anointed Knights (for religious reasons), but nonetheless they seem to have been nobles of some description.
As always, my good Sir, your points are well made and efectively explained. Good job. Oh, btw, the conquistador type helmet is called a Morion . Thought you might want to know.
Honestly they should've just found a tree cut it down and that could've been Wan Wan's weapon for the entire battle, can you imagine the devastation that could've inflicated on the Boltons
Stop it 😂I can’t bruh 🤣every single person has an extra name and it’s the best thing but I only have 15 minutes to drink this coffee and I keep laughing 😂
They make you censor bastard?
the North doesn't have knights, they don't follow religion of the seven, they worship the old gods, and there was no knights before the Andals invaded with their religion. The north typically wears leathers into battle, it's a poorer region and they fight better with the light leathers than bulky armor. Wun Wun could have had weapons, when the Nights Watch was attacked a giant killed a guy w/ a massive bow and arrow, and he has used a tree/log as a weapon at Hardholm.
Ramsey Bolton at least has the excuse that he is insane, John 'I whine all the time' Snow's only excuse is that he is an idiot, when Ygritte says 'you know nothing John Snow' it is the understatement of the century. I'm really sick of the Trope where the hero passes the entire story whining about what they want but can't have.
I'd also like to point out that Ramseys archers despawned after his infantry charged
To be fair I think that Ramsey wouldn't wear armor so he would not stand out in his army. They all know and fear him already and the enemy can't see who the commander is.
Downhill turn GoT. That's what you get when your writers are random fans on twitter/youtube/whatever the hell comment section.
I have it on good authority that Rickon learned his running away technique from Meredith Vickers.
Why did Hollywood decide medieval stuff can't look cool unless it's all black or brown? Can we get some f-ing color for once?
About Ramse firing arrows into is own men : I think the most important reason you never fire into you own ranks is because it will cause your men to panic and cause mass confusion within their ranks, this not only makes than easier for the enemy to kill but possibly cause your men to rout.
that completely unrealistic pile of bodies is so dumb i wana throw up the writers said that they were inspired by a battle in the napoleontic wars for that but in that battle the bodies were making hard to march and fight in formation not making hard to see the sun becose there is a huge mountain of bodies above you to have so many dead bodies in such a small area the armies must had a milion men each
I do believe that the Stark armor could be brigandine, tho it doesnt seem to matter.
yeah its fantasy brigandine, hence the gaps between the plates
Giant with no weapons: Lol prolly cuz the people making the set didnt wanna make a 20 foot long great sword.
Jon is wearing a type of brigandine, no idea what the internal plates are meant to be made of though
"sure you can copy my answer just change it slightly so the teacher doesnt notice on your test"
The show runner for this show doesn't know military formation. Just make it look good for tv.
You ruined the full pull and impact of the BOB "battle of bastards" thorough
think Jon is wearing Brigandine or coat of plates, the rivets and squares seem to suggest that.
We actually do see giants use weapons in the show. Watchers on the Wall had a giant shooting an arrow with a bow.
The giant can just throw dead bodies at the lancers, it's very affective.