LIZZIE BORDEN PART V: THE MOTIVE
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- Опубліковано 7 лис 2023
- Timothy ‘ Big Pretty’ Crowe once again tackles the case Lizzie Borden and the Borden murders, and explores what may be Lizzie Borden’s often overlooked true motive.
#lizzieborden #bordenmurders - Навчання та стиль
I love watching these, you are the most accurate I’ve seen on this case. Thank you so much!
Love your theory about Lizzie’s motive. It really makes sense. Looking forward to installment #6!
I did not know some of those things such as the will or the pigeons. It does surprise me that Andrew had no will. People try and take today's morals etc and try to apply them to days gone by which I say is incorrect.
Extremely interesting. I enjoyed listening... :)
Nice to see a video from you again! Love hearing your thoughts on this case :)
Love the Lizzie series would like to see more true crime topics especially the black dahlia a case I think that also gets surrounded by more rumor than facts and misinformation.
"He wrung their necks"...🙄
My little barely 5 foot tall great-grandmother would kill and butcher her chickens daily. She would snatch them up and wring their necks. It was just how things were done for most people.
As did mine. My grandparents lived on a farm and had a whole mess of chickens. Wringing a chicken’s neck is very common. My grandma also had geese…mean ole nasty things, in reality. When they would fight with each other, my tiny 5’2” German grandma would go out in the middle of the flock and kick them until they stopped fighting and injured each other. There are things you do because there is no other way. She was in no way a cruel woman, these are all things you just did on a farm.
@@heatherharrington2563Yep. I grew up on a farm, we raised our own animals, and the small ones like birds we killed and butchered ourselves, the larger ones (pigs and cows) were done by a professional. There is nothing cruel about it, we raised them lovingly (yes, with talking to them and all), they had a very good life, and when their time was up there was no stinking slaughterhouse, it happened before they realised it. No stress whatsoever. And it learned me to respect the meat I eat. Don't spoil it, don't throw it away, an animal died for it.
A part of me feels that if you can't kill and butcher an animal, it is quite hypocritical to eat meat. But then I would become as extreme as evangelising veganists....
@@TinkerTaylor-zv1ml yeah, I used to be a vegan. But it didn’t do well with my system. My skin turned grey and my hair started falling out. And I did the complete protein thing, supplements and all. But - it had nothing to do with the way my grandparents treated their animals. They were kind and gentle to them, just when we had to eat a chicken for dinner, there were just certain things you had to do. Anything larger, like your family, was done professionally.
You have a great way of words.
Enjoy your borden videos. Hope there are more.👍💚👍
I think this is a very sound theory. Thanks for the update!
I enjoyed your vid. I'm going to watch the other parts.
By the way, I love your Lizzy series! ❤
lol. Thank you.
*Excellent view points!*
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Many thanks!
@@bigprettyman3795
You're welcome!!
Chapter 5!! Yay!
Another thing about the dresses... the fabric would be re-used, so why would she burn a dress with a couple of stains on it, if it wasn't blood?
I am familiar with antique clothing, and if something could be shaped by folding, the fabric would not be cut, so the seams of a dress could be opened and the fabric would be as square as possible, making re-use easier.
So burning clothes was not done. They would be sold, given away or made into something else by themselves. If the fabric was damaged it could even be used for the monthly rags, especially in a house with 3! women.
I’ve always found that odd as well. Very good and historically valid point. Such a rarity here. Thank you.
@@bigprettyman3795thank you sir! I am a bit of a textile-nut, so that fact stood out for me.
Absolutely! I recreate historical clothing, and when you said this, I thought…”Why did I not mention that to Big Pretty?” (I’m his wife) You are absolutely correct, fabric was a precious commodity, they would have not wasted a single square inch. Wonderfully awesome comment!
@@heatherharrington2563Oh I am honoured by your reaction ms Big Pretty! It is so amazing to see antique clothes and how they are constructed. The V&A has a series of books with a lot of pictures, even x-rays to better see the gold-thread and the boning to shape the costume. Edit: if you search Susan North, you should find 2 of them.
@@TinkerTaylor-zv1ml yes! I love the V&A collection! Wonderful!
I like the theory you've presented, and it makes sense.
Do you think if Andrew would have had a will leaving them money to live on it wouldn't have happened? Was Abby being supported by her father until Andrew married her? That was a very interesting theory.
It’s a very intriguing question, isn’t it?! We could never completely, but considering the situation I think it’s a yes. if he had made a Will providing for his daughters think about how much worry and desperation that would have removed from his daughters minds. I think it could have very well have saved Abby’s life, as well as the collateral damage of Andrews murder.
I've studied this since I was 12 and I know with today's forensics, she would have been on death row. The photos say alot. And the lies.. I mean it comes down to one person, however, Emma and Bridget had to know this after the fact and help cover up the crime.
No evidence of a cover-up. Speculation without evidence. We’ll never know how much Emma knew, but convinced by the timeline that Bridgette saw nothing.
excellent breakdown
You know, as I was watching this (I’m Big Pretty’s wife, for those reading this and don’t know) while I was in our bedroom, before you stated your theory on the motive, I began to think of a conversation Emma and Lizzie might have had in private. Basically, “OMG, what shall we do when Father dies? He’s advancing in years, he shall not live forever. What shall become of us?”
Followed by some unpleasant names for their step mom and "I'll bet she won't care for us..." Lizzies sister was absolutely in on it, no doubt in my mind.
@@TinkerTaylor-zv1mlmaybe, although not as people think. She may have just been talking about what was to become of them after their Father died, and that put the idea in Lizzie’s head. I don’t think Emma physically did anything.
No, Emma did not do anything, I agree, but she was very good in timing her absence, so Lizzie could do her thing 🤫. Makes me think a bit about my older sister, she is the plotting type, but she likes to delegate the dirty work. Don't worry, I escaped her clutches!
We’ll never know what Emma knew or her involvement. Could have been conspiracy, collusion, or simply don’t ask don’t tell. We really have no evidence to point us in any direction.
You Make Sense! 💙
Thank you. I try to stay within the evidence and weed out the rumors, wives-tales and crazy theories.
I went on the house tour and I've been to the Fall River Historical Society exhibit. Abby's body was moved a bit but mostly to put her skirt down to cover her bottom. She was exposed and it was manipulated for her dignity before the picture was taken. Her hair piece was also on display. It was found on the bed (I think) after the murder.
Yes, I’ve been there.
I guess my question is about Bridgette: she was able to marry after the murders. Was it more “relaxed” in her Irish culture to get married at her age than it was for an American woman in the Victorian era to be married at a certain time? And for Lizzie’s case, if she did try to get courted at a late age, would it have been possible for her to find someone even if it was taboo? Or would it be common for a man to totally “disregard” her given her age? Could she fake her age just to get a man back then? I know these are loaded questions, but my main question was the first one 😅
That’s a great question! I think it might have more to do with the region. She had moved to Montana, and it seems getting married was much easier. Might have to do with the low population and availability at the turn of the last century. There were many rumors and even ‘ gossip articles’ in the newspapers that Lizzie was going to marry. They were obviously misinformed. Whether she had suitors or this was just business men seen coming and going and busy-bodies making speculations is not known, but the latter is more likely in Fall River. Maybe Lizzie should have moved West. She might have become a real catch on the frontier. Lol
I read a lot of books written in the 18th and 19th century. It seems to me that men who wanted children, a huge incentive, married young women to increase their odds of healthy offspring. Widowers with children or men who didn't care to have kids would marry older women but their chances to be asked were limited.
The Step Mom got married late. so your answer is right there. She was overweight and not attractive but found a wealthy man. many women died in childbirth so the widower needed a woman to run the house. Having more children wasn't an issue in that case But it's always harder to find a partner later in life even today. And location does matter at times.
I love the way that you have deep dived into this fascinating case. Sorry if you have mentioned this before, but I don't believe that this was not all about Andrew's age. I believe that the luxurious trip to Europe that she was sent on and actually where she got a real taste of the life that she wanted to live was the straw that broke the camels back. I believe Briget did help cover for Lizzie. The door to the guest room stayed open that day open because no one in the house walking around on this day was afraid of the murder of Abby, would be discovered until later. After the murders, Bridget went from being basically a servent to buying a nice farmhouse and went on to living a relatively comfortable life. Explain how this could have been possible without some hush money. Emma also had to know that her sister committed these murders.
Wrong in all counts. Bridget wasn’t allowed in the bedrooms. It’s in her court testimony. Lizzie knew this, and knew Bridgett would never go into that room. Plus the way the house is structured you only go in that room if that’s your intention, Bridgett did not buy a farmhouse and worked as a maid for a judge in Montana after moving there. Her new husband owned a farmstead. Where are you getting this BS? . Bridgette savings at death were those of a servant. You need to re/check your bad and incorrect sources. There is no evidence for what you are proposing here. Just spreading more misinformation. Go read the authentic sources.
I just subscribed to your Channel and I have watched many of your videos. I tend to agree with most of your theories. I have a question did Lizzie Borden really burn a dress in the stove question mark and if she did in front of people was that to throw them off my device is not letting me question marks and commas sorry
Yes she did burn a dress she and her sister claimed was ruined by paint 3 days after the murders and in front of a visiting friend.It was odd and that was what she was originally arrested for doing. In court they had the dressmaker, her sister, and even the house painter testify to the incident where she got the dress ruined by fresh paint she rubbed against during the tailoring. Question is; where was this dress during the house regardless of whether paint or blood? Shows how well the house was searched by police. See my other videos where I went into the dress.
@@bigprettyman3795 thank you for answering my question so promptly. I'll have to go back and look at those videos again. What are you saying they had a painter in the house three days after the murders question mark who has someone come in and paint the house 3 days after a double murder, that seems strange explanation point again I really love your videos explanation point
No, you misunderstand. The housepainter and dress maker testified that the dress was indeed ruined by paint in a past incident. Hence not blood and why she burned it.
@@bigprettyman3795 oh I'm sorry I misunderstood. Thanks for clearing that up .
I find it interesting that the theory is Andrew would kill pigeons for crapping on hay, when the whole family were literally getting physically ill from eating unrefrigerated rotten meat - and kept eating it.
Because they weren’t eating rotted non-refrigerated meat. Thats another myth I covered in one of my videos. The mutton had been cooked the day before, not several days, and it’s right in Bridgett’s testimony that they had an icebox where the mutton was kept overnight.They had cold mutton, broth, pears,Johnnycakes, cookies and coffee for breakfast. Oatmeal was also found in the stomach contents of the autopsy.Bridgett, Abby and Mr Borden complained of a headache and upset stomach that morning that started the night before. Bridgett also said in the testimony she suspected the new milk from the day before as the culprit, which was a more likely and very common cause of food poisoning at the time, especially in the hot summer. I’ve seen this mis-info in both the movies and a few documentaries.
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I think these murders were driven by rage. Just because of the overkill. That shows rage. Actually, people from the Victorian age in the upper class lived long lives. He wasn't in the remosted bit ill.
Life expectancy was 45-50 across the board in 1890. . One good cold could turn to pneumonia ( common in the period and among the elderly. Lizzie herself died of pneumonia after a surgery in her late sixties) and that would be it. I’m sure frustration, animosity, and fear fueled most of those frantic swings.
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I suspect the defense attorney suggested to Bridget not to bring up the fact that Lizzie told her to go rest upstairs. And perhaps Lizzie was angry at her dad because he put her in that vulnerable position in the first place.
Both are very possible and even likely.
Hi Big, one thing about Bridgette going upstairs to take a nap, wouldn't she have seen into the bedroom where Abby was? Because as you climb the stairs you can see right into the bedroom? Right?
No. She used the back servant stairs, which is the back of the house. She wasn’t allowed in the upstairs front bedrooms of the family. Was right in her testimony in the transcripts.
@@bigprettyman3795 Ok ty!
Apparently this was the common practice for servants back then. They saw it as inappropriate for servants to be in their private bedrooms. That’s why Abby was upstairs making the guest bed where Uncle Morse had slept when she was attacked and murdered rather than have Bridgett do it.
I agree about Brown’s book. It’s crap and his theory has no basis in fact, especially regarding a complex conspiracy. However, sometimes the possible existence of a conspiracy actually satisfies Occam’s razor rather than negating it.
When? Example?
@@bigprettyman3795 I meant in the sense that the legal definition of conspiracy is very broad in most states. It's simply two or more people joining together, making a plan to violate the law and then acting on the plan. It happens all the time. Any criminal organization utilizes conspiracy to maintain itself. So, in that sense, conspiracies are everywhere. I wasn't referring to anything specific other than to agree with you about Brown's book. I enjoy your videos. Great work and unique presentation!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they about to move into a bigger house?
No. Lizzie claimed that in a newspaper interview. Financial forensics show no evidence of a pending house purchase.
Don't forget the ladies out here watching you.
I mentioned them in the video.
Lizzy loved animals .
Yes, she did.
Cut the BS & just get to the point .
Go fuck yourself. That to the point enough for you, Asshole?
Very interesting, indeed. 🪓