James Bulger Murder | Mental Health & Personality
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- Опубліковано 11 сер 2020
- This video answers the questions: Can I analyze the mental health and personality factors at work in the James Bulger murder? James Bulger was murdered in 1993 by Robert Thompson and Jon Venables.
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American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). Arlington, VA: Author.
www.crimeandinvestigation.co....
www.crimeandinvestigation.co....
thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/di...
www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...
www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/...
Hay, C. (1995). Mobilization Through Interpellation : James Bulger, Juvenile Crime and the Construction of a Moral Panic. Social & Legal Studies, 4(2), 197-223. doi:10.1177/096466399500400203
King, M. (1995). The James Bulger murder trial: Moral dilemmas, and social solutions. The International Journal of Children’s Rights, 3(2), 167-187. doi:10.1163/157181895x00014
Levine, M. (1999). Rethinking Bystander Nonintervention: Social Categorization and the Evidence of Witnesses at the James Bulger Murder Trial. Human Relations, 52(9), 1133-1155. doi:10.1177/001872679905200902
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This case is so shocking. I feel so sorry for James' mother, that she has to live with the memories of what happened to her darling baby.
What's even more awful is that she had apparently just recently lost a child due to stillbirth. So, essentially, she lost two children in apeeiod of only a few years. I literally cannot even imagine the nightmarish hell that he life must have been, and likely still is today.
She also either became pregnant almost immediately after James' murder or was already in the very early stages of pregnancy at the time. Her surviving child was born in the midst of the Court proceedings against Thompson and Venables. The stress she must have endured from being pregnant and caring for an infant in the immediate aftermath of such a horrific, high-profile tragedy is truly beyond comprehension.
What a cute baby he was! Unfortunately, the child abusers really go for the cute ones including the child-age child abusers, I guess. I bet the mother wishes she never let go of her child's hand.
His mother to this day does not know the horrendous details of what was done to him. She couldn't take it. She avoided that part of the trial and has never read any articles other than what she herself has said in interviews. I know exactly what they did and if I were his mother, I would not want to know them either. Both parents nearly lost their sanity as it was.
Dawn Sutton I remember reading about that, and at the time (as a kid) I didn't understand how she wouldn't want to know everything. Now, as a parent myself, I can absolutely 100% understand why she wouldn't want to torture herself any with any more than the unbearable torment she was already suffering.
Alsl, after reading the details of the Moors Murders, (committed by Ian Brady & Myra Hindley) and seeing how Lesley Anne Downey's mother was apparently totally and permanently mentally/emotionally destroyed after seeing and hearing the evidence of her child's torture, I respect and understand James's mother's decision even more. She had just given birth to a brand new baby around the time of the Thompson/Venables trial, and I absolutely respect her making her new baby's welfare her #1 priority...and I don't think there's a mother alive who could simultaneously bear the stress of a new infant AND being subjected to the full horror of how her other baby had been murdered.
Roseanne S She's said so many countless times that she would give her life without a second thought, if she could just go back in time and change that few seconds that she took to get her money out.
But I think it's very important to always make clear that she did *nothing* wrong; she literally let go of her toddlers hand for no more than a few seconds...and no parent (especially in that time & place) would ever expect that a couple of 10yo boys hanging around would actually be vicious, inhuman predators, circling like sharks whilst hoping to take advantage of just such an opportunity. In fact, it wasn't so long before this horrific incident happened that mums regularly left their prams (with babies sleeping inside) lined up on the sidewalk outside the shops whilst they were inside...and nobody ever considered that this was inappropriate!
This case still makes me sick.
Every time I hear it - I want to throw up. They're not human.
Were was the mom when her kid got stolen is what I want to know
@1980Punk That's interesting, I didn't know that psycho's were born that way. I've just googled it -and apparently some research suggests that it's a combo of nature (neurological disorder) & nurture (upbringing). So interesting! Thanks for sharing that.
@@stealthchopper54 I don't know the details of how exactly this happened - but I think someone only needs a few seconds to steal a child & then run.
@@siennamay3281 unfortunately they're all to human.
“Or maybe I just don’t recall the homicidal stage during my time studying human development.” As always, the commentary is on point, Dr Grande!
It appears none of them did. I mean nobody retains everything from their field of study, but darn one would think the abnormal behavior would've stood out.
Btw, yes! When he slipped that in, I had to crack a smile, which was tough given the nature of the topic.
Always a pleasure to hear those jokes! Such a great time with sometimes horrible cases.
Don't know how he keeps it serious as he goes.
It's part of Grande's hidden charm hahah
I love Dr Grande, don't get me wrong. But I feel that in this video humor should have been left out (two children kidnapped, tortured and murdered another child). It was a disgusting case that shocked my part of the world. His humor was in bad taste to me in this case.
@@themurrrr I get that it wasn't directed at the victim or killers. But I think given the seriousness of the case, he shouldn't have used humor. TBH I'd prefer if he just didn't make jokes that involve real people. It just seems so inappropriate. Like not making assumptions about a person's mental health is a line he draws, but jokes are ok..... IDK, just seems distasteful for a professional. Again, really like the good Dr, but lay off the jokes.
@@themurrrr Yup, for me he's never out of bounds for being so serious and centering on not pre-judging but correct treatment and assess which are the ones to blame a tragedy for.
Plus we alredy know his intentions are not cynical or bad really. I see it as a gift for the audience.
Wouldn't get so PC about it, but it's personal I guess.
Which kind of humor genres you tolerate and don't, what is your limit on how far to take a joke and I never really saw him step out of line as some comedians do which is understandable, 'cos free speech and tastes.
And humor is pretty rare around the YT genre of psychoanalitic videos, which makes this channel unique 😉🤟🏻
It's very painful to imagine how helpless and terrified little James felt. Rest in peace baby boy. 💔
@fari es I have a 6 year old... it's so odd how I care so much more about this case than b4 he was born... it may be one of the sadder crimes I have ever heard about... I'm crying now. I cant imagine holding that little boys hand and torturing him... I just dont get it.
@@jeffersonott4357 i don't have kids of my own, and yet this story broke my heart into pieces. And you as a parent must be so terified of this. Take care of yourself and your precious beautiful child. ❤⚘
@@faries4794 oddly (and maybe wrongly) I'm not that scared... I posted on another comment(sorry, I watched this and cried my eyes out responding to a few comments,) this is just about the most uncommon crime humans have ever commited.... I said I've list my child for 30 seconds a few times, and by second 25, I was terrified, but could never ever ever imagine this would be his fate.
Omg don't do that 😬
James was a baby crying for his mum and them two bastards still tortured him and then laid him on a train track to be cut in half it's so tragic rip James Patrick Bulger
I wanted to vomit listening to what that little boy suffered.
He didn’t even mention that there was a sexual aspect of the crime.
@@Zei33 no way... really??? I thought this could not go worst... (I was 12 y.o. back then..)
One of the boys continued to commit crimes including having indecent images of kids. Laws need to be changed, he shouldn't have been let out of prison as many times as he was.
@@quotidian5077 The US learned this lesson several decades ago. There was a case involving a 13 yr old serial killer (Craig Price) from Rhode Island that was key in finally allowing some children to be charged as adults. I just remember that he crushed the skull of one neighbor girl and stabbed his victims so many times (40-60) and with such force that the blades broke off inside them. He was set to be released at 21 with his record expunged per the law, and he bragged that he would "make history" when free. As his release date approached, they slowly tacked on extra months/years every time there was any noncompliance including things like refusing to comply with a psych eval. I don't know if I fully believe every single prison crime that has been attributed to him, but I am certainly thankful that at 46 he is still in there. He was due for release again this year, but he just stabbed an inmate, so that buys us another couple of decades of safety. At 66 he will still be plenty fit to continue his killing spree though. The thought of putting a child in prison for life is awful, but at some point you just have to admit you have miscalculated the danger to society.
****
When the Rhode Island teen cannibal child killer (Michael Woodmansee) came due for release after serving 28 years of a 40 yr sentence (for being a model prisoner and not raping, killing and eating any more little boys in a ADULT prison), the victim's father went on the radio and declared that he would kill him once set free. There was a huge public uproar which prompted a review by independent forensic psychologists who declared he could be involuntarily committed indefinitely. Are there no such interventions allowed in the UK while laws are amended to protect society from dangerous people of all ages?
Me too, it's one of the worst of the worst. Truly horrific. It is the unfathomable phenomenon of evil. It ain't mental illness.
One of the saddest things about this, is that when James Bulgers mother seen the cctv footage of the 2 boys walking away with James, she told her husband something to the effect of 'oh good, he's with 2 other little boys, he's safe'
This whole situation is just heartbreaking and stomach turning, I can't imagine being the parent of any of these children
This is precisely why dozens of witnesses let them go on their way. Nobody was capable of imagining such a crime from such young children.
@@giabarrone7422 That's true. Also, for me personally, I probably would have assumed that one of the older boys was James brother, and they were taking him home to their mom or something. And depending on what the situation looked like at the moment, I might have asked if they were ok, or if they needed help. But certainly wouldn't have pushed it, as not to scare them, since most kids don't, or shouldn't, talk to strangers. Which, again, makes it that much worse for poor James.
@@MystiDawn If you "wouldn't have pushed it", you're part of the problem. No way in hell are conscientious people with common sense supposed to see a toddler in clear distress, and "not push it" because he's with two older kids.
That should be precisely when one does "push it", and if people had, that poor kid wouldn't have endured the horrors he did...
If that's what Jame's mother said, she's probably a f*cking idiot, I'm sorry. NOTHING good usually comes from strangers purposely leading a toddler away, no matter how young those strangers are.
What a shame...
@@elliota.1063 What actions would you have taken specifically?
James’ mum Denise fought for justice for her son for years and years. It’s still one of the most horrific crimes ever to be committed over here
Why did they let those demons out so soon? They should have gotten life imo being 10 years old should have only saved them from the death penalty, but in your country they barely even got punished at all..smh
@@marlowstanfield6815 um
Excuse me
The age of criminal responsibility should be 15 because and not a day less
These are kids ffs
@@Unbreakable245 i don't care, they knew what they were doing, they tortured that baby to death. Even life in prison is getting off easy after what they did to that poor baby. Personally if that was my baby I wouldn't want police to get involved, I would have took care of them myself..
@@marlowstanfield6815 ppi like you make me 🤮🤮🤮
You should be ashamed
They were 10 and their home lives were bad
@@Unbreakable245 yes, that has shocks every human still today, it’s disturbing, I can see kids accidentally play fighting and dying but thisss?! Wow they were early caught psychopaths and it’s better if they stayed in jail.
This case has disturbed me for years just due the pain and brutality that James Bulger had to endure. Very sad case.
Same as baby P.
Kill the bastards slowly rest in peace James
I followed this case back in the days - here in europe literally everybody was in shock over this horrible crime !
I'm in the states and this still haunts me.
I’m pretty sure anyone who has ever heard this story reacted in shock and horror. How could you not?
Canadian here 🇨🇦
Everyone here in Australia could not believe that could happen. It shocked our nation to the core.
I live in Britain, you only have to mention the word Bulger and it brings a taste of disgust. Especially seeing as Venables has been convicted of having indecent images of children on his computer.
Peppy - we were in shock here in Australia too 😞
This is one of those cases when I wish they had thrown away the key. That baby would have been screaming in pain and begging for them to let him go and they continued the torture plus desecrated his body. They didn't want to simply murder him, they wanted him to suffer. That case has always made me physically ill.
They were 10 years old. Obviously it is disgusting but 10 year olds don't have fully functional brains and shouldn't be held fully responsible for their actions.
@@r.t.h.k.o when children are between 8-10 years old they develop a sense of right and wrong. They also make step-by-step plans to carry out complex plans... something very wrong happened during the development of those children... but who's to be responsible for it? They should have stayed in jail/ mental institution for life...
cal c BULLSHIT.
@@r.t.h.k.o which I why they served such little time.
Agree. If a child doing this kind of shit isn’t a danger to society idk what is.
The fact that they, got caught and found a second child and got stopped so many times is bone chilling scary to me. Thanks Dr. Grande 😉
If they spend their whole lives intensely anxious about being murdered, that's appropriate.
If they get to live then it would only be fair for them to suffer mentally, emotionally, spiritually whatever that everyone is out looking for them and can take them out any day. They dont deserve utmost protection.
I studied this case when I was at university doing my social work training. We got to see the full interrogation as part of our child protection training, it was truly horrific, but was pivotal in my decision to specialise in mental health social work
You know, Carol, I am SO glad that you are specializing in mental health social work; with input from someone like you, these boys might have turned out different. Thank you for working for the mental health of all!
Wow that's incredible. If I could repurpose my university fees, I'd abandon accounting science and do forensic science, specialising in art - drawing and creating busts and profiles of offenders.
@Haseeb 2 there are so many deplorable people on this list. Not mentioning one doesn't remove the validity of the pertaining case. Calm down 🙄
@@pensnme As an artist 🎨, I LOVE your comment!!!!!
@@pensnme you dont talk like that in real life lol
"He was particularly anxious about being identified and murdered"... well dont violently murder an innocent child then.
It goes way deeper than that. Not so simple. The lack of understanding people have for humanbeings who experience these conditions of livlihood is a big problem. Simply not doing it doesnt make the desire or need for it related go away. If people threatened to kill or rape me if I acted, I'd still have the need regardless. If being sexually abused or harmed in anyway was a deterrant by itself, once would've been enough. Being harmed doesn't make people better. It makes us sick people with only harm to give because we shouldnt get anything else according to people who are considered "real victims."
Pastel Panda Completely agree
Right! Smh, they may have escaped a harsh sentence in the UK but I think there’s a special place in hell for them.
Pastel Panda, I am pretty sure Catherine was not offering that as a real solution.
Your spelling is atrocious, btw.
Yeah, imagine a 10 year old who WOULDNT think that far ahead and with clarity for consequences....
I have a 10 yr old boy. He's so innocent and young. I can't imagine a child having this mentality. This is so unbelievably horrifying
Yes, just appalling. (Love ur name and pic BTW!)
Children don't get just born like that - someone or something shaped them into such monsters. And seems that one of them was not gone beyond recovery. Watch the Child of Rage documentary
@@miriam3848 some are born but it's rarer
It’s all depends on parents and family members mental emotional and all other support that they should provide children as much as they can
@@patrickbateman4541 no they’re not. It’s always due to something that gets revealed to them in childhood
My god - that poor little boy! This episode inspired me to intervene next time I see something sketchy going on. I'd rather be labeled a Karen and find out I misread the situation than do nothing when I was in the position to help.
This case was the most horrendous murder of a beautiful innocent child. James suffered and was needlessly taken and his life ending in the most despicable way. His parents ended up divorced,ruined their lives and heartache magnified and life long. These boys were guilty and needed to be put away for longer. My heart goes out to Denise and her former husband ,they have to go through life without their child.I often think not enough is done for the parents and plenty of excuses for the perpetrators. Really disturbing and extremely sad. They need to address what exactly they did wrong whilst releasing these boys who were obviously needing a proper diagnosis and not to suffer from excuses. They have their lives but James is not here,not fair at all. Especially when one of them returned to prison. Thank you so very much.
those of us in the UK who followed this case as it happened were all deeply shocked. a kind of collective trauma that we experienced in 93
It hurts no matter how much time passes.
kingkonut Those words are so true. The sheer shock and pain ricocheted throughout this country. The pain and suffering was most paramount. Denise and James Father plus relatives my heart goes out to all of them to this day. Extremely shocking and life changing. James will always be remembered. Thank you so very much for your reply.
Tara S Tara those words are on point. The hurt , trauma for Denise , James Father, relatives and all concerned suffered unimaginable heartache and it was indeed a shocking and heartbreaking. Thank you so very much for your reply.
May the dear Lord bless this poor little 2yo for the rest of eternity.
Hello Dr Grande. This is so utterly disturbing to me. I really don't care how old they were this was premeditated they treated this toddler brutally so very brutally. I think like you said they should have at least minimum had a twenty-year sentence each to let them go through the growing up stage.. I don't know what led professionals to think that one of them if not both of them would not reoffend that seems ludicrous to me. I can't believe 10 years old and your committing crimes knowingly and seeking it out. Thank you for bringing this case to light. It's so egregious I can't believe they did not have to serve way more time in prison.
@PrettyNeckslashes agreed!. If not longer.
Exactly. Just such a flop of justice and even attempt to help them. Seems like they really didn't care
@@AnnRiba seems like they could have cared less. They have criminal hearts
Isn't Britain known for their light judicial sentences.?
@@inproper3952 From what I have read, yes. At least for violent offenders. They seem to lead the pack for jailing certain non-violent crimes like speaking poorly of another on social media, or letting your neighbors know that a convicted child murderer has moved into town under an assumed name.
These children needed severeeeee therapy. And it’s very scary to think that there whereabouts are so secretive today. It makes me shudder.
RIP James. I hope his family is doing well.
I’m from the UK, and one of them was working in Pizza Hut (a family restaurant) but then his real identity was revealed and had to leave. He has also been re incarcerated for downloading child porn.
They don't deserve anything but rope after what they did to Jamie Bulger and their pattern of reoffending in heinous ways of as they did. The UK government is obsessed with the safety of criminals and flagrantly disregards the safety of victims and the public.
This case highlights a huge issue in the British justice system from murder down to less serious offences were the criminal is given many opportunities to create new victims, whether its a petty thief or the scum who killed this poor lad.
This is an especially emotional case for me because I live in the area this happened and it scarred the community.
@@TheLoneWanderererr 10 year olds deserves death? Are you out of your mind? Only one went on ti reoffend and from what I know, it was for NON VIOLENT crimes so idk where you got your info from
@@TheLoneWanderererr - hanging ten year olds? I think you're looking for vengeance not justice.
Incidentally only one has had a pattern of reoffending. The Govts so called obsession with the safety of criminals is purely a figment of your imagination.
This happened when I was pregnant with my first child, terrible story, heartbreaking , it helped me be more observent , as soon as he started toddling I got reigns for him. My poor baby couldn't escape if he tried.
@andy jonnson nope, luckily for him, I took the reigns off for his 18th 😂🤣
@@kaship98 Dr Grande, brings out the best in us all... Sometimes 🤣😂👍😘
@@ruthietube lol i love your sense of humor!!! 😂😂😂
I unapologeticly use a "leash" on my boy mainly because of this case.
@@nonnonbutlove1642 good, better have them laugh at you than cry with you.
This was a very disturbing case. I feel sorry for his family. I cannot imagine how they feel.
It's very confusing to hate someone you love. It hurts but you let it go because you can't live angry for too long. You love because you choose to love.
@@lorimiller4301 Wtf are you going on about?
I was 9 when this happened and remember it vividly as a Brit. One of the most hideous memories I can recall and more heinous in hindsight.
Same, (although I was 8, nearly 9). It shocked me so much to realise that even kids just a little older than me could do something like that. I thought if they're capable of that, then what does that say about humanity? I remember it was all over the news for a long time, (especially in Yorkshire where I lived, due to it taking place in Liverpool). Everyone was understandably shocked and shaken. Still completely shocking to this day. Hideous and terrifying stuff!
Me too, also a Brit and was 8. Just AWFUL my mum lost her mind with worry for a while after, think many parents did here in UK
@@anomalousoddity Especially seeing that all those demons got was a slap on the wrist. They should have at least got 30 or 40 years, they barely got any time at all
Dr. Grande,
I'd recommend analyzing the case of Suzanne Capper. She was a teenager from Manchester, England. She was brutally murdered by a group of people she thought were her "friends." According to a psychologist, the perpetrators had no discernible mental abnormalities despite the brutality used. This case happened around the same time as the James Bulger case and would have recieved more press had the Bulger case not occurred.
Sarah lancaster a similar such case
James Riley was 14 when he discovered the body of James Bulger, it gave him such bad PTSD that he spiraled into drug addiction shortly after finding Bulger's body. He died a few days ago in police custody, RIP James Bulger and RIP James Riley. What a horrible tragedy that has impacted so many people in such a horrible way. it's hard to believe two 10 year olds could do something so inhumane and brutal to an innocent baby.
It was so traumatic for so many including the detective inspector and coroner.
So sad that everything JAMES should have been looking forward to in life was brutally taken away!
fran mellor , to what extent is a two year old conscious of, let alone capable of looking forward to, all the things that may happen to him in his life ?
Yes, and yet the killers go free!
fran mellor What about the 30 odd people who saw the crying James with those two boys???
@@nottooherbal I immediately thought that too..
But he did miss out on living his life.
Several people did intervene but they told them that this was their brother and they were taking him home
That is what I was guessing. Smart and devious. Not good!
Did they? Stupid children.
Heidi Borter not to praise them or anything but that actually is pretty smart, if they were stupid they would’ve said, “Oh yeah, I’m abducting this child. He doesn’t know me at all! You should call the police.”
Anita Lassiter exactly it’s so sad
Couldn’t have hurt to still turn them in to the police. Better to have an annoyed mother having to pick them up at the station than a murdered toddler...
_"None of whom interviened to help him..."_ I think that tells you more about the psychology of how people see children more than it's a damning sign of their indifference. Seems wrong to imply those people were bad.
It's also factually inaccurate. Multiple people did intervene and stopped the kids to ask them what happened. They had an excuse ready. They said he was their little brother who had fallen down and that was why he was injured.
This case was sickening. I watched a documentary about the perps that was pretty sad. It’s good your title has the victim and not the perps. No jokes about this one. Glad you called out the British courts and mental health professionals on this. Thanks Dr. Grande
Surprisingly, a British court did slightly better in the case of Mary Bell, a 10 year old who killed two small boys in the 60s, a curious comparison. 2 other interesting cases from the UK and Fred and Rose West and Jimmy Savile, definitely worth analysis, Marianne.
You're certainly on a roll covering really interesting cases!
I really want him to do John List. I can’t believe he hasn’t.
@@leslie3933 Not yet.
Yeah, he found his niche
Literally the best youtube channel of all time 🙌
Leslie Ooh, wow! I hadn't even though of that, but now that you've brought it up I won't be able to stop wishing Dr. G will cover that case!
Dr. Grande, could you please analyze the behavior of Cindy Watts - Chris’ mother? I believe it is an interesting question of nature vs nurture when it comes to raising kids and there are many people (myself included), who believe that Mrs. Watts shows signs of narcissism and is completely desensitized. Hope all is well and thank you for your amazing work educating people about mental health!
Yes! Very interesting subject... Cindy Watts.
Was gonna suggest this topic as well. Seems so interesting.
@JustPaul bit harsh, have you watched the videos of her?
She wanted him to plead not guilty and put the family through a trial, she openly criticized her murdered daughter in law saying she never liked her anyway (it's not normal)
Prior to the murder shannan had stopped the girls staying with her un-attended because she gave nuts to the kids who had a but allergy, she refused to attend the wedding, and then after the family murder still spoke openly and highly of her son !
I would hazard a guess, that she raised a narcissistic son from being a narcissist herself
@@leeanncrowley-davies7628 we don't know all the details of that relationship from BOTH sides, bc those bits of hear say have only been shown from Shannans texts to friend. Everytime she (Cindy Watts) tries to speak for herself, she stomped on and people are ashamed for wanting to interview her.
Those stories that Shannan spread about her MIL leaving razor blades out, and purposely giving her kids allergenic foods are denied by Mrs Watts. It does appear that Shannan was overly exaggerated/reactive when it came to her MIL's action. Sometimes I wonder if maybe Shannan herself was a borderline personality along with her OCPD. And no I'm not defending CW's criminal acts.
@@b52270 what we do know is cindy watts wanted a trial, she openly criticized a murdered mother of her grandchildren, and continued to speak poorly of someone who couldnt defend themselves.
Yes shannan said cindy gave food etc to her kids but we dont know if it's true, but equally we have no reason to disbelieve and given the way cindy has spoken about shannan, I'm inclined to lean towards shannan version because it takes a warped person to speak poorly of a murdered mother.
The details of how James sustained his injuries by the boys are truly sadistic.
What are the details of the crime?
@@Nicolasfdu92 Listen!!
I think your justification for a twenty year sentence is a very good one. I also was glad you addressed the 38 people who witnessed seeing them, were suspicious yet did nothing to have it further investigated. This is a tragedy all the way around.
38 people. Wow. That is shocking that no one did a thing to intervene.
@Danica Margarit It really isn't shocking. After some high profile murders of children in the preceding years by strangers, some of these bystanders said they didn't want to approach young kids in the street in Britain for fear of being labelled paedophiles.
@@crose7412 Not least as the Moors murders happened in the North-West of England, as did THIS horrific murder too.
@@crose7412 That's just a feeble excuse - the thing about not wanting to help because someone might label them a paedo. An excuse that no decent adult would ever use. Anyway, apparently in this case, the boys were approached by adults wanting to help. The older boys said the wee one was their brother and they were taking him home. Jamie was too little to make it known what was going on.
Recent documentary stated one woman did intervene & they told her he was their little brother &they were taking him home.
@@jonnylumberjack6223 It was a very valid reason rather than a feeble excuse at a time when a paediatrician had "paedo" spray painted on her house. Taking labelling one step further would be being beaten up by vigilantes for approaching little kids in the street. There was a very hostile atmosphere at the time of kids not speaking to strange adults and vice versa.
I remember this crime when it happen. It was very shocking. I am dismayed that those 2 criminals got out after only 8 years. How can anyone who was capable of such a heinous act be normal after that?
I know, it's well known that the UK justice system doesn't actually serve "justice".
If they were tried “as adults”, why did they only get eight years? Most adult murderers get life or beyond - sometimes they are executed.
It's because this happened in the UK, where the criminal & penal system is a joke. Even those who do get life sentences are often let out after about 10 years. There's no capital punishment either, (although I actually agree with that). I'm pretty sure that they don't keep them emprisoned for long because keeping people locked up costs a lot of money. Plus there's no space in the prisons due to them being full of petty criminals. It also doesn't help that the whole system encourages criminals to reoffend, (thus getting sent back to prison), instead of rehabilitating them. Lots of things that would need changing.
I was wondering the same thing!
If this were America, they'd get about 20 years, with a mandatory minimum of 15. Possible parole.
@@user-dq3ji2nl5f The UK system isn't that bad. Theres far worse systems around the world. Any of the Nordic countries are far more lenient.
Even in the U.S., being tried as an adult doesn't guarantee a harsh sentence. Sometimes it's done because juvenile records can be sealed or expunged. Thus, a conviction in an adult court can be a way for the courts to ensure that a child who commits a serious crime such as murder isn't legally able to buy firearms once they are an adult, or just to ensure that the record of their serious crime doesn't "disappear" when they turn 21.
This case was huge news in Australia as there were rumours the boys had been relocated hear, with several pretty crimes supposedly linked to one or both of the boys. There was no truth to it but it still sparked outrage nationwide. This was around 2002-3. This email detailing the crime with some extra grizzly fictions bits added or spice.
I later did a project on the case in 2009 for a college class: the boys displayed a history of antisocial behaviour throughout childhood and were feared by their pupils at school, which they often skipped, both from dysfunctional families in poorer suburbs; it is speculated that one or both were subject to physical abuse.
Thompson has since expressed remorse through writing apologetic letters to the mother, an ex-con claims to have assaults Venables a year into his sentence because he was bragging about the murder, claiming he was despised by the inmates (who were also minors).
I hate their defence lawyer! He produced a documentary about a Norwegian case, whereby a little girl was accidently killed by two boys playing when one jumped on her in the snow, how they were never punished, with care put towards re-entering the classroom (kindergarten) and community without feeling different. He interviewed Norwegian Police and those involved in the case comparing it to the Bulger Case as though they were the same and presenting British justice as cruel for not treating Thompson & Venables the same way, getting the disapproving reactions of the Norwegians after presenting the two cases as basically the same. He's an awful, duplicitous person: a radical humanitarian, claimly spoken who fights to get every criminal no matter how heinous treated gently and released into society, because "being locked up is not fair."
Yes, I saw that. What was the name of that documentary again?
Can’t even imagine being the mother of that poor murdered boy. I don’t think I could stand it. As for the mothers of the perpetrators, well, I can’t imagine that either.
@Sarah Min my background was rubbish too but I didn't murder anyone at 10-12 yo. Tease, yes, push and shove (and feel remorse afterwards 😢) yes but brutality like that is unimaginable. The parents played their part but these two may have siblings who are model citizens. I think they were born evil and meeting someone just like them exacerbated the situation. At least one hasn't gone on to reoffend. Let hope he doesn't because the public already are baying for their blood.
My heart is in pain every time I hear this story
Dr. Grande, your 20-year sentence comment made so much sense and frankly was refreshing to hear. That really would have protected people from them longer, and protected the boys from themselves. This senseless heartbreaking death really shook me and so many others. James couldn’t have been more adorable, and the kids that did this were so young it rattled us at an extraordinary level.
I love true crime, but this is one case that I can’t ever stomach seeing or reading about. I’m sorry Dr. Grande, I can’t watch this one. I’ll catch you next time.
For those sensitive to the disturbing nature of graphic details of child murder, after 2:30 no more discussions of James Buglers harm or suffering is made.
It is just a discussion of the two perpetrators behaviour and history in custody and incarceration.
Dr Grande makes a good example of keeping the horrible details brief, factual, and even leaving out some of the torture methods used.
Thankfully he didn’t go into detail or mention the most horrific parts that is still so distressing to remember
@@KayosHybrid Thank you
I would say this is one of those "triggering" cases where the outcome is so outrageous and unfair it's painful to watch. I usually skip anything on James Bulger or Casey Anthony cases but its Dr Grande so I knew it would be a great analysis. Thank you!
Agreed, Jan Jan! I'm the same way, but, just as you said, Dr. Grande delivered a classy, respectful analysis!
Same here... I'm still debating with my inner child (I was 12 y old when this happened) wether to make an exception for Dr. Grande. 😔
This was such a tragic case. I can’t believe they released those kids. Anyone that could murder at that age, especially murder a child, is clearly a danger to society.
"Of mice and men"
Why is that line stuck in my head now.
I searched up the inspiration to the title of the story, it's an even older poem from 1795 about a man who upends a mouse's nest when ploughing his field.
The farmer humanizes the mouse, and sympathizes. But in the end expresses that the mouse feels for the moment and cannot know the grief, fear, and anticipation he does.
In my opinion, these 2 young humans commited the crime with complete intent. Even 20 years with supervision and analysis is generous. I have no doubts their release came at the cost of others. Terrifying. If it were up to me, I couldn't tolerate their existence. It just seems pragmatic.
Thank you for your hard work and interesting cases. I have the highest respect for people like you who work to counsel and help people who want to change for the better.
A video like this about Mary Bell would be really interesting considering some of the similarities in the two cases!
Yes, she was a psychopath. She did not torture her victims. There’s a whole different level of sadism involved with James Bulger
The beginning of this was hard to listen to. I can't imagine what would have to be in someone's mind to make them want to do such horrible things to, basically, a baby. Luckily the incomparable Dr. G sheds some interesting light on the subject...
Dr. Grande, I would love it if you could do an analysis of the novel/movie “We Need to Talk about Kevin” in the future.
That film is utterly amazing!
I've never heard of it! Thanks for the suggestion; I've been stuck at home nearly 24/7 since March, and at this point I'm constantly and desperately searching for movies, videos, books, podcasts, etc. to fill the time and (hopefully?) keep me sane..,
OMG OMG!! Just looked it up, and it apparently stars Tilda Swinton!?!? She's been my absolute #1 favorite actress since I was a teenager!! Thank you even *more* for that suggestion!!
@@maneckineckbeard1749 you are in for a treat it's an awesome film 👌😉
Claire Yay! Thank you! It does look like a treat...even without the Tilda Swinton factor! 😁😁😁
James Bulger’s torture and death still holds anger and extreme sadness for me, although I never met him. One thing that I still can’t come to terms with is the lightness of the sentences imposed on Thompson and Venables and the fact they were mollycoddled by the justice system, never properly punished, which made a mockery of James’ terrible death. The second is that, of the 38 people who witnessed James, bloody and crying with the 2 boys, yet not one bothered to intervene. Children deserve and require all adults to notice if something is amiss or suspicious with them. James’ death taught me to be more aware of youngsters, even if not my own, and to notice anything out of the ordinary. Better to look like a busybody than to know you may have missed a chance to help protect an innocent child
Dr. Grande, I'm disappointed that you didn't go into the backgrounds of the offenders at all. Both grew up in poor and abusive families, both had a badly alcoholic and neglectful parent, one was one of seven young brothers who all acted out, fought, and bullied their juniors and younger siblings. What's more, both missed so much time in school that they were held back a year, and one of them was such a source of trouble that he was moved to another school, where they met. It's quite obvious that two troubled children, one year older than the rest of their classmates, with such similar situations, would end up sticking together. A psychologic insight into the case should not miss all of this background info. It's not as if these boys were normal kids in normal circumstances until they horrifically murdered a baby.
There are thousands of troubled kids and those in situations far worse than those little cunts yet haven't killed anyone. Having a troubled past is not an excuse.
And normal kids don't just suddently murder a kid.
I remember this case in the early nineties. That was the first time I heard of very young boys committing such heinous crime...And then, I heard about Mary Bell (at age 10 she strangled to death 2 little boys in 1968).
oh wow, i forgot about that one! thank you, Germania.
In the 1860s there was Jesse Pomeroy (Boston, MA) who kidnapped and tortured a few victims at a young age (12), was released early at age 14, due to intercession by a powerful official, and then killed again (victims age 4 and 10).
@@evelynwaugh4053 oh wow! Interesting!
@@cindyrhodes Whenever I get discouraged about modern man, I stumble upon an example from history that makes me suspect that we haven't changed that much since ancient times, to quote Dire Straits.
@@evelynwaugh4053 omg Dire Straits is one of my MOST favorite groups! ANd OMG Mark Knopfler is one of the BEST guitarists in the history of stringed instruments!
Thank you so much Dr Todd Grande for covering this case. James Bulgers mother was called Denise Bulger at the time, it is now Denise Fergus (look her up on youtube, she is a truly amazing lady). Jamie Bulgers parents NEVER gave up campaigning for a tougher sentence for the children who comment this despicable crime. She campaigned for years for the boys that murdered her gorgeous little man to do time in an adult prison (The only thing she ever asked for was that the boys do time in an adult prison). It went on deaf ears. The thinking at the time was 'they are only children, they didnt mean to do it really, they had a hard start in life, sure a few years in a juvenile prison will see them right'. The boys were let out when they both turned 18!. You remarked on the 38 people who saw Jamie distressed with the boys and did nothing. One lady even held Jamie Bulgers hand and questioned the boys but was satisfied when they told her he was their brother and was taking him home. In 1993 it was acceptable to see older siblings minding (even for the whole day) younger siblings. It was not strange to see two 10 year old boys walking out and about with a younger child, and a lot of the thinking of the time was 'mind your own business' Thank you for covering it. I was only 13 when the story broke, I couldnt then and I still cant to this day understand how those animals for boys did what they did to poor Jamie Bulger. He was not even 3 years old yet. Horrific what they done to him over the course of 2 hours. As a child even if I stood on a worm, I was crying for the day, for them to do what they did, is a special kind of fucked up.
Thank you very much for covering this, Dr. Grande. I saw a documentary a few years back and could never wrap my head around how such psychopathy could exist in anyone so young - as you said, getting to that level usually takes years. It came back to me recently and inspired my question. The update on their lives was appreciated too.
thank you! I've been waiting to the Bulger analysis for a while now. Excellent as always.
I've consumed everything I can find on this case. Child on child crime to this level is tragic on so many levels both immediately and over time for all involved. Especially the victim. Just ugh.
I'm new to this story. Do you have Amy book titles to recommend ? I can't seem to find anything here in the States. Thanks
@@stratigraphymajor8196 "the sleep of reason" by David James Smith
This infuriates me to no end. I couldn’t
Imagine what his mother lives with day to day.
May her son Rest In Peace ☮️
How can you not love Dr. Grande... By far the most interesting and informative channel on UA-cam... Keep up the great work Doc. 🙏💙
Thank you for all of the hard work you put into these videos. Love the frequency of the uploads.
I remember this crime so vividly, living in the UK and being 12/13 when this horrific crime occured. Almost feels strange to hear you talking of it Dr Grande. Would love to hear your analysis of more British crimes.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Sylvia Liken case, particularly the group dynamic when people collectively take part in such horrendous acts. What happened there? Nobody said anything, nobody helped and several individuals tortured a girl to death over a period of 3 weeks. How did they all get so aligned in their cruelty? I wonder if there was more going on psychologically in that group. Thank you.
I just can't have enough of your videos in general.
Never lose that touch. Fam!
Wow what perfect timing I just watched his interview. Thanks for condensing everything down love all your videos keep up the great work
This case is so tragic and disturbing.
Thank you for your insight Dr. Grande
Thanks for covering this Dr. Grande. It's a particularly emotive case and I appreciate your effort in researching such a case which must not have been your most enjoyable work experience. In defense of the mental health professionals and bystanders who reacted in a less than adequate way, it was such an unprecedented case that it was hard to know how to react. As you say, you are glad the responsibility of dealing with such crimes was not yours. Many Liverpudlians who walked past those three children must have assumed that all was relatively well, that they were all friends or relatives, because who could possibly imagine such actions from ten year olds until it happens? My experience of boys that age from teaching is that they are capable of being thoughtful moral actors and none of my interactions with normal 10 year olds has given me any insight into the egregious behaviour of those two. A very disturbing and inexplicable case to all of us who remember it from the early 90s.
I appreciated that you gave your opinion on sentencing. It's a very important discussion to have if we are to improve our handling of extreme cases, and I think a lot of commentators would avoid giving a direct or specific opinion.
First of all, I find your content fascinating! I want to make that clear, haha. I am also an insomniac who sometimes stays up 48 hours at a time. I have trouble with sleeping pills, some seem to keep me awake, some make me sleep for 20+ hours, etc. I’ve tried all of the “fall asleep” type videos on YT but they kind of stress me out. However, I find your voice so soothing, it can knock me right out. What I do at bedtime now is put on a video of yours I’ve already watched and that will usually zonk me out on the first round (I just listen). Falling asleep to some of the subject matter creeps me out a little but I swear it’s your voice! So, double thanks to you Dr. Grande!
Skipping school wouldn’t be a big deal in the UK if you were of secondary school age, 13, 14, 15 etc. But to be skipping school and wandering the streets at 10 years of age whilst you are still in primary school wasn’t common at all, and was in fact seriously abnormal behaviour even back in 1993! The fact that they had done it repeatedly is an indicator of the neglectful environment they were living in, by their primary school, by their family, and by their local community.
Tragic and terrifying case. I remember the crime vividly - I'm not much older than Venables and Thompson. Their mugshots and the community reaction also made a huge impression. Thank you, Dr.
Thank you Dr Grande, for being both honest and respectful of the victim and his family. This remains one of the cases that utterly haunt me, thinking of all the circumstances and what that poor child went through. I appreciate your balanced discussion and that your videos don’t rely on shock value. God knows there’s enough of that in this case as it is. Thank you ❤️
What a tragic story. I never heard of this case before. I’m at a loss for words.
Great analysis and video!
Thank you for covering this case 💜 It's one that's always haunted me given the age of the offenders & the brutality of their crimes.
I've been waiting for this one! Very heartbreaking case 💔
It’s still shocking hearing what happened to James. It’s heartbreaking that he died in such an horrific and senseless way. Hearing the description of James’ injuries, I am enraged and sickened to me stomach.
Dr. Grande, you handled this subject matter with the utmost respect and professionalism 💙💙💙
Dr. G, I just wish someone would have saved that little boy. I have no compassion for the killer kids. I agree about your take on their sentencing, though maybe even longer would be better. I have less compassion about them getting new identities and being protected. No one protected that little boy and it would be just if they should have to live in fear for their lives, just like that little boy did.
I remember this case when it first happened... I live around 40 miles from Liverpool on the news coverage was intense. I also read the court transcripts during a class for the forensic diploma I did..... The things they subjected that child to, is just unimaginable and it was kind of scarring just to hear what they did... That I just cannot imagine how his parents feel... Its possibly the most disturbing case I ever read through in all honesty.... just beyond horrific.
Thompson did not venture too far from home post release and has apparently been living for a few years in my area and is still receiving long term intense mental health treatment.
This is one of the cases I left a comment about! I'm not sure how many others asked about it but I personally thank you for your insight here. It's so hard to understand what could make this happen to begin with, and as you said, if this is where they started their criminal careers, what next? Thanks for your thoughtful response, I really enjoyed it, even though the subject matter was rough.
This is an incomprehensible criminal act. There are no words...it brought me close to tears thinking about what this young child endured and the unfathomable terror he must have experienced. It causes me to question evil, morality, nature vs. nurture, the bystander effect and the diagnosis of conduct disorder vs. psychopathy in children etc. etc. I also wonder what the thought process was of some of those involved in the case namely the professionals in mental health, the criminal justice system and corrections. Thank you, Dr. Grande, for a fantastic analysis on an important and difficult case.
“Or maybe I just don’t recall the Homicidal stage from my time studying human development.” Word
Thank you, Dr. Grnde for covering this case. I was really curious how a crime like this could ever have happened... My heart goes out to the family of the victim. And I have to say, I totally agree that the punishment was definitely not enough.
I appreciate how you talk about sensitive material. You never glorify it. But you do help to explain the question of why. Thank you for your continued professionalism Doctor. 💞
I requested this a while ago, thank you Dr. Grande! This was super interesting, seeing as they’re just kids when they committed this crime. I’ve always wondered what could have been their drive to do something this atrocity at such a young age.
Thankyou Dr Grande. I'm British and was 13 at the time of this murder. The British justice system is incredibly weak and loaded in favour of the perpetrators. Sentences are so short in relation to the crimes.
This is a case that’s never left Britain (I’m Scottish). It’s one of the worst cases I think we’ve ever faced and James’ mother is quite frankly, an amazing individual. I won’t go in to detail about what those boys did to that baby but it’s far worse than reported here. There is mitigating evidence that these boys grew up in such deprivation that this was inevitable. I don’t think so. I think this is one of these horrific situations where 2 unstable individuals meet and influence one another. That’s just my opinion but I did grow up with this situation and it was hard for everyone to understand.
I'm Scottish too and the amount of time spent on this freakish horror story is well beyond its level of importance. There's a thousand and one things we could, as a society, be turning out attention to with more fruitful results.
Love your views and putting things in perspective.
Thank you for this one. Fantastic. Being British I remember when this happened so clearly. It's still talked about all these years later. It was and still is so shocking. Still so much anger, even to this day. Thank you, love your channel!
I live in England UK, and remember this sickening case. I was surprised that the sentencing was so lenient considering what had taken place.
I just found out yesterday that I had taught Venables in 2001 or 2. It was a shock to find out. He was to me another of my vulnerable learners, young teens who had been expelled from school usually and we don't get given background info, I thought he was one of those. Such a long time ago but I am chilled. Since I lived overseas at the time the crime happened I really didn't recognise him or even think about it. My thoughts, he was unpleasant with no friends or interest in being part of the class - not much interest in anything, sneaky (always sneaky) and I felt he was devious. My colleague (who was the one who knew his I.D.) told me yesterday she felt he was manipulative, I would have to agree. Of course he had a different name and of course I won't say what it was. Anyway he has had multiple new ID's since anyway. Such a shock. I doubt I could have taught him if I had known at the time.
The initial details, were so difficult to listen to 💔
You handle everything so well, Dr Grande. I believe every victim deserves to have their story told. Thank you for covering this.
I watched their short film and was hoping you cover this! Liked before watching! 🙌🏻♥️
Reminds me of the film decades ago called "The Bad Seed". Dr Grande may like to do an analysis of this fictional child character.
I read this horrendous story and I listened to what Denise(James mom) was saying and she said that when she would take James out she would usually have him in the buggy but on that day she didn't bring the buggy and James was crying to go home it's a pity that they didn't leave and go home before though perverted psychopaths kidnapped him what evil was in them pure evil they should have gone to prison for the rest of their lives, they knew what they were doing was very wrong, the justice system is a joke 😠😠😠
I just watched a documentary on this case. Great timing! Thank you.
i always enjoy the various topics that you cover
Great video! Could you please do a video about Fred & Rose West.
OMG This has to be the most horrendous case that I have ever heard of. What horrible boys. HORRIBLE. HORRIBLE HORRIBLE.
Yes, I can't listen to it as it is too distressing.
@andy jonnson indeed! Systemic systematic abuse CAN cause that type of psychological disorder in kids, but not all of them behave this way. Did that happen to you? If so, I feel sad for you.
@andy jonnson I am sure the boys had been abused treated badly ect but it wasnt nowhere near as bad as the harm they caused to james, so why they go so overboard and do things so extreme
Dr. Grande is very comforting.
I admire you for taking this one on, I remember when this happened and the details of this case are utterly harrowing.
So harrowing on this occasion I don't think I can bring myself to watch it.
Thank you, Dr. Grande. This is unbelievable, all the way around. Were there reports of behavior problems with these two by the schools or their parents? It's hard to imagine that there would have been no warning sigbs.
Yes, you would have to look up some of the videos. With parents separating, hyperactivity at school. One of the boys had about 6 siblings and an alcoholic mother. The other boy had a sibling with autism I think etc...although know one would ever have predicted something like this happening.
I'm connected to 3 of the biggest murder cases in the UK from this millennium. I live 10 houses up the road from where Meredith Kercher used to live before she got murdered in Italy. I used to work with Mark Dixie, who murdered Sally Anne Bowman, he's been in my car. And me and a friend got hijacked in my friends car by Stuart Hazell who murdered Tia Sharpe, about 10 years before he murdered her. I'm connected to the craziest stuff, I really am.
Bulbous also tapered
That's Right!
ok...
Thanks for covering this case, Doc! I knew about it vaguely, but not the extent of the torture inflicted on the witness. It kind of reminds me of the murder of Sylvia Likens, except that case had an adult encouraging the torture. Truly horrific and it's heartbreaking that no adults intervened when they saw the child victim injured and crying.
I really enjoy your videos and your sense of humor! Has anyone ever requested you analyze the Delphi Murders case? There is not much to go on but I would be so interested to hear your take on who the culprit is and your analysis.