I was reminded by Amber's final thought, of the quote from NT Wright that if Paul was alive today he would be most concerned that not only is the church divided, but we don't seem to have a problem with that... Thank you Amber for working to sit in a space encouraging christians to remember what we have in common, rather than what divides us. I look forward to that project. God bless D
Around minute 24 Amber outlines the abstract vs lived experience understanding in the Hebrew mind, and tying it to faith vs works, and how they are one and the same in the Hebrew mind. So good.
@@PaulKruse-dd2xw She is probably getting that idea from reading the old testament itself, along with 2nd temple literature. And it makes sense. Most of the bible was written over 2000 years ago on another continent(for me), It makes sense that the audience that the Bible was written to would have a different worldview as us.
I’m concerned that the faith plus works deal is an example of invalid thinking that’s illogical and therefore irrational. We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith so that our minds and hearts are transformed to DO the works of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Emotions are a rational category subject to the Laws of Logic, which are an essential part of the God’s character, His mind, heart, power, and will.
I’m concerned that the faith plus works deal is an example of invalid thinking that’s illogical and therefore irrational. We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith so that our minds and hearts are transformed to DO the works of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Emotions are a rational category subject to the Laws of Logic, which are an essential part of the God’s character, His mind, heart, power, and will.
I loved this discussion. I’m currently in a Calvinist church and don’t understand how people cannot see that from the beginning of creation, God has been calling us to Himself and grieves over our continual refusal. It seems so obvious to me. 🤷♀️ I pray daily for God to open their eyes. 🙏🏻
Here’s good stuff: God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals ONLY, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue these verses, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8
@@jjphank What precisely do you believe that a person must do in order to be eternally saved ? I ask you this because after reading your comment I am unsure of your position on this. Blessings
This was absolutely fabulous and what the church needs to focus on today. Just subscribed to her channel. The church really needs to move away from "propositional" knowledge or head knowledge being the end all be all. Our God is amazing! Thank you Amber!!!!
Please more discussion along these lines. Forgive me if this is harsh to say, but the whole Calvinism v Arminianism v provisionism discussion is exhausting and exhausted. That horse has been beat to death
Great discussion! Amber is talking about the discipline of biblical theology which is studying the development of the Bible’s themes and attempts to understand these themes holistically within the entire framework of the story. This focuses on reading the Bible the way it was intended. Unfortunately, we read it in a highly disjointed way and fail to see the continuity of its themes. For example, the imagery and themes of the garden of Eden are woven throughout the whole story. The OT prophets use this Edenic imagery and use highly metaphorical and hyperbolic language. Then when this symbolic language comes up in the NT like in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, we over-literalize it and grossly misinterpret it. Failing to understand the prophets’ metaphorical language and failing to see the continuity of the Bible’s themes are the reasons why our eschatology is such a mess. The fulfillment of God’s prophecies in the new covenant IS the story of the Bible. Restoring the condition of God dwelling with his people and heaven coming down to earth (Eph. 1:10; Rev. 21:3) and restoring man’s capacity to renew creation (Rom. 8) IS the story of the Bible. Systematic theologies must always take a backseat to biblical theology.
i love the OT, i honestly don't understand the Christians' love for the NT. I don't know how NT would make sense without OT but i have met NT Christians/ those who pretend OT is irrelevant. I am grateful to see someone speak of OT
Not loving the new testament would make someone as blind as someone who doesn't love the old testament. There's no understanding the old testament without the new, and there's no understanding the new testament without the old.
But you can't really understand what God is doing in His eternal redemption plan without the OT infolding into the NT. All of it is God's Word. Why would anyone do away with either
@ There were those who had a vague understanindg, but not a complete understanding. There were then those who thought they understood the old testament, but in reality they didn't understand it at all. Paul was in the later category until God revealed Himself to Paul. Paul went from misunderstanding the old testament to such a degree that he was persectuing the Christian church to then having a great understanding of the old testament afterwards.
I was excited to see Ben Guptill's question at 58:30, but not satisfied with Amber's answer. I'd really like her to think about it further and readdress it. You, too, Leighton! (❤u both.)
I was taught, Jesus gave us the entire Canon in Jewish order from the first and last person to be murdered in the OT Matthew 23:35 "so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" Also the Jewish OT ends with the Jews going back to their land 2 Chronicles 36:23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up. Are Christian Bibles OT order has changed to reveal the Pre-Millennial return of Jesus Christ And our Old testament books are written in that order to recognize Jesus return. And our new testament ends with that promise Revelation 22:20-21 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. ((Even so, come, Lord Jesus.)) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
I am so sad that it's actually so remarkable to see a conservative Evangelical theologian engage so respectfully and so admiringly with a woman, a woman he clearly sees as his equal in the Kingdom. So few conservative men seem to be willing to engage with female scholars. Just last week on social media I was discussing theology, and a guy interrupted and told me to "get back into the kitchen cuz the dishes weren't finished." Even if I weren't already a provisionist, I would find your channel well worth my time.
I experienced this as a Jewish believer and we left that church. Stoneage!!! The baptists seem to not have a problem with women learning and doing theology, yet conservative. Jewish orthodoxy women are so educated we can run our own services!! Where do believer get this from? !!!
Teaching within the church, as in with a local body of fellow believers that includes men, is outside the realm of what a woman is allowed to do. However, there's nothing wrong with a woman doing so in a scholarly environment or really any environment outside of a local body of believers. As an example, if I, as a man, had some kind of misconception about theology and a woman knew more than me about it and she pointed out to me where I was wrong then that would be a good thing. As another example, it would be wrong for that same woman to stand up on a stage and teach at a local church about theology to a group that included men.
I agree with you. At the age of 76 and after 40 plus years as a believer, I now find myself feeling completely censored in the High Calvinist church I am currently a part of. It’s terribly troubling.
@@LawlessNateI don’t agree with women pastors and am very uncomfortable with women teaching men within formal settings but some of these hardcore complementarian types take it much too far.
Paul makes it very clear in Galatians and Romans that no one has ever been saved by anything but faith. Systems either ignore this or invent the concept of APPROPRIATION, and place that in the way of faith. The ONLY thing new in the NT is the indwelling of the Spirit.
As we are talking about things Christian tradition teaches that the Bible never mentions, let me add three more. Eternal conscious torment, the end of the world, and a physical 1,000 year earthly kingdom. These are Christian presuppositions, but do they emerge from the story itself?
Star War movies come out in the wrong order because people would not sit and watch Darth Vader grow up and become. So they jump in at an action point and then go back afterward because people are hooked on the storys.
The prequels weren't even in George Lucas' mind when the originals came out. He decided to write a backstory after the originals were finished, which is why there are so many discrepancies between the originals and the prequels.
I like her comment that we should try more to find things that we agree on with other christians as opposed to differences. Unfortunately, the vast majority of christians cannot agree on the most important question.... What must a person do to be saved? Ugh
Leighton, you may find this useful in your ministry: We can know "when" we are on God's prophetic calendar. It is written in the book of 2nd Esdras. Chapter 11 contains a prophecy that describes a line of American presidents, four of whom are still alive, and two of them are being kept until "the end." All of them are old men. "The end" is fast approaching. Ezra wrote Second Esdras, chapters 11, 12, and 13 many centuries ago, long before the United States existed, yet he accurately describes a line of 15 US presidents starting with Hoover. This 100-year-long prophecy began fulfilling on March 4, 1929. It is now 95% complete. Its perfect fulfillment to this point has established its credibility. Ezra was not guessing. I have condensed the prophecy into a series of short lessons - my gift to you. Please allow me to guide you through them, step by step, and into understanding. Blessings to you and your loved ones.
I must not be western minded because I would not immediately think, let's kill it and take it apart to see how it works. I would put it down and watch it. I'm not sure that's eastern and western minded as much as male and female minded. I get a thing that works good, I just keep using it until it doesn't anymore and then I find a man who will take it apart and figure out what went wrong. Sometimes boys will take stuff apart before it even breaks just to, like you said, see how it works. Not me though
😂😂😂and I'm sure it's equally clear that it was determined by God for your pastor not to know that he wasn't a Calvinist when he claimed to be one, but then God determined for your pastor to know that he really wasn't when it became obvious that he wasn't one now 😂😂😂
@@Unknown.servant I know you're not. But my point is what you are describing is a hyper viewpoint of Calvinism. Unfortunately they happen to be the loudest among the Calvinists so they get all the attention despite being grossly wrong about their views. They also tend to believe since the elect are elect there's no need to evangelize. It truly is disgusting.
I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding how Amber came up with her interpretation of the Torah. The bulk of the Torah involves the Mosaic Covenant which was a conditional covenant. There is a strong emphasis throughout on God's holiness and justice. And in the NT when Paul uses refers to "the law" he is almost always referring to the Torah, and speaks of it in negative terms. Because it was a conditional covenant its blessings were conditioned on Israel's obedience, and therefore was bound to fail at the outset. The Old Covenant's failure then set the stage for the redemptive work of Christ and the New Covenant.
I’m not a scholar, so this is just my 2¢. The Mosaic Covenant was conditional, but that is how covenants work. There are blessings (benefits) and curses (consequences). God’s holiness and Justice are not incongruous with His love. His love is not indifference, but seeks the greatest good for us. Sometimes that means pruning behaviors and thought patterns. When a person becomes so wedded to destructive thoughts and actions that they can not be extricated from them, God ratifies their choice and brings destruction upon them, and in so doing protects the greater community from the wickedness metastasizing. Paul’s emphasis on his writings were on the weakness of the Law to do what we need, not that the Law itself was bad. Romans 3:31 (ESV) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 7:7 (ESV) What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” Romans 7:12 (ESV) So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
@@shaunschulte2258 I would agree with most of what you said, except that the New Covenant, strictly speaking, is not conditional in that it is based on our works. It's God's promises to us in His grace. And yes, the las in itself is good, but as a conditional covenant with Israel it was a failure.
What makes one human able to say yes and one human not able?? Let’s say all is equal..social status, education, health, exact same effective Gospel presentation, etc. Both see God’s goodness and both understand it is a free gift that must be received. Question: What makes the one who “chooses” God able to do so?? Smarter, better/cleaner heart, wanted it more, more human effort…??? Without God intentionally touching the one who chooses and sovereignly not touching the one who did not choose…what made the difference??
Why assume that the will is a mechanism rather than a personal faculty? Why couldn't the difference be the actual person deciding rather than assuming they lack some ability that others have?
Your questions are inherently flawed as you're demanding something besides the agent to be the cause of their choice. That's it, that's all there is to it. An individual chooses for themselves. There may be factors that could influence a person, but nothing is causing or determining them what to choose except the individual themselves. Their choice could be rational or irrational, so it's not A+B=C. It's just a self determining choice.
Ability is granted to all by the Creator. You're acting like ability and the actual decision made are one and the same. No, prove that before you assert that cart before the horse. True free will IS the default basis for Old Testament Hebrew thought. That's a very large part of what Amber drove at in this discussion. You sound like you didn't listen.
Great question. Answer: free will. The mindset of your question suggests that people are just products of their surroundings. Recognizing that you need God doesn't make you a better person. God holds us all accountable for what we do with the gospel. Accept it or reject it. That decision is not a work that merits anything, but God has told us that the people who accept are the ones He has mercy on. That is the gift from God, not the ability to accept the gospel.
@@trebmaster I didn’t listen to this discussion but I’m on a journey of determining how to best grasp and then to lead others in terms of God’s sovereignty and salvation. I’m not an Armenian or Calvinist. I am a believer in all things Christ and in the Bible from start to finish. I am convinced no one can come to God on his own merits or by choice without help from God. I see God choose from beginning to end in Scripture and I also see God ask some to choose. My question is aimed at the “free will” in Salvation Christians bc I’m trying to see your viewpoint. What in your human effort or ability or circumstance gave you the ability to say yes and not your i.e. twin brother who experience life the same?? Why could you humble yourself but not they?
This sister is very brilliant in the scriptures and in teaching. It would be good to have her on the podcast a few times. God bless her.
I was reminded by Amber's final thought, of the quote from NT Wright that if Paul was alive today he would be most concerned that not only is the church divided, but we don't seem to have a problem with that...
Thank you Amber for working to sit in a space encouraging christians to remember what we have in common, rather than what divides us.
I look forward to that project.
God bless
D
This was excellent and I hope to hear more from her. Thanks for having her on.
Refreshingly interesting! Thank you Dr. Flowers, would love to see more similar content.
Around minute 24 Amber outlines the abstract vs lived experience understanding in the Hebrew mind, and tying it to faith vs works, and how they are one and the same in the Hebrew mind. So good.
I wish she would provide some references for that idea, because it was very intriguing to me as well!
@@PaulKruse-dd2xw She is probably getting that idea from reading the old testament itself, along with 2nd temple literature.
And it makes sense. Most of the bible was written over 2000 years ago on another continent(for me), It makes sense that the audience that the Bible was written to would have a different worldview as us.
@@PaulKruse-dd2xw start with the books I recommend at the end!
I’m concerned that the faith plus works deal is an example of invalid thinking that’s illogical and therefore irrational. We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith so that our minds and hearts are transformed to DO the works of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Emotions are a rational category subject to the Laws of Logic, which are an essential part of the God’s character, His mind, heart, power, and will.
I’m concerned that the faith plus works deal is an example of invalid thinking that’s illogical and therefore irrational. We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith so that our minds and hearts are transformed to DO the works of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Emotions are a rational category subject to the Laws of Logic, which are an essential part of the God’s character, His mind, heart, power, and will.
Thank you for having Amber on the show!
This was eye opening and I’m excited to learn more from Amber on her channel. Also, Amber, I’m with you on the icky-ness of shrimp 😂
Definitely would like more like this. I enjoyed it. Very helpful.
I loved this discussion. I’m currently in a Calvinist church and don’t understand how people cannot see that from the beginning of creation, God has been calling us to Himself and grieves over our continual refusal. It seems so obvious to me. 🤷♀️ I pray daily for God to open their eyes. 🙏🏻
I would encourage you to find a church that's not Calvinistic.
Here’s good stuff: God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9!
God, predestines groups or plurals ONLY, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined!
Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1!
Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright !
So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says !
Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue.
So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8!
But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“!
Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue these verses, let’s hear you try!
Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!
Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ?
So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination!
Revelation 13:8
@@jjphank What precisely do you believe that a person must do in order to be eternally saved ? I ask you this because after reading your comment I am unsure of your position on this. Blessings
@@timrockholt8782 for me, its 1hour 15min away by bus and or 20min by car i dont have a car. The calvinist is 10min walk with kids or 5min alone
@ Calvinism begins w a false reading of scripture!
I enjoyed this. Thank you.
This was absolutely fabulous and what the church needs to focus on today. Just subscribed to her channel. The church really needs to move away from "propositional" knowledge or head knowledge being the end all be all. Our God is amazing! Thank you Amber!!!!
More like this!!!!
Please more discussion along these lines. Forgive me if this is harsh to say, but the whole Calvinism v Arminianism v provisionism discussion is exhausting and exhausted. That horse has been beat to death
Great discussion! Amber is talking about the discipline of biblical theology which is studying the development of the Bible’s themes and attempts to understand these themes holistically within the entire framework of the story. This focuses on reading the Bible the way it was intended. Unfortunately, we read it in a highly disjointed way and fail to see the continuity of its themes. For example, the imagery and themes of the garden of Eden are woven throughout the whole story. The OT prophets use this Edenic imagery and use highly metaphorical and hyperbolic language. Then when this symbolic language comes up in the NT like in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, we over-literalize it and grossly misinterpret it. Failing to understand the prophets’ metaphorical language and failing to see the continuity of the Bible’s themes are the reasons why our eschatology is such a mess. The fulfillment of God’s prophecies in the new covenant IS the story of the Bible. Restoring the condition of God dwelling with his people and heaven coming down to earth (Eph. 1:10; Rev. 21:3) and restoring man’s capacity to renew creation (Rom. 8) IS the story of the Bible. Systematic theologies must always take a backseat to biblical theology.
You should also invite Ronn Johnson and his articles on What is the Bible’s Big Story?
i love the OT, i honestly don't understand the Christians' love for the NT. I don't know how NT would make sense without OT but i have met NT Christians/ those who pretend OT is irrelevant. I am grateful to see someone speak of OT
Not loving the new testament would make someone as blind as someone who doesn't love the old testament. There's no understanding the old testament without the new, and there's no understanding the new testament without the old.
@@LawlessNate i disagree on one point, i do think you can understand the OT without new like PAUL the apostle and early Christians.
But you can't really understand what God is doing in His eternal redemption plan without the OT infolding into the NT. All of it is God's Word. Why would anyone do away with either
@Unknown.servant I don't get it but he (NT Christian) claims that OT was for Israel and NT is for us (gentiles).
@
There were those who had a vague understanindg, but not a complete understanding. There were then those who thought they understood the old testament, but in reality they didn't understand it at all. Paul was in the later category until God revealed Himself to Paul. Paul went from misunderstanding the old testament to such a degree that he was persectuing the Christian church to then having a great understanding of the old testament afterwards.
@29:42 “And if we don’t have a choice, that doesn’t make sense. And the entire Old Testament has nothing to say.”
BOOM!!!
The OT is the Promise
Anglicans use the same Bible as other protestants.
They don’t accept the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books as informing doctrine, but they do accept them and use them liturgically and devotionally.
I was excited to see Ben Guptill's question at 58:30, but not satisfied with Amber's answer. I'd really like her to think about it further and readdress it. You, too, Leighton! (❤u both.)
Seemed like a good answer to me. Unless one sees a severance between the Testaments, the BOSS had a solid answer.
AWKNG School of Theology is offering free courses in Hebrew if you want to try to keep up.
I was taught, Jesus gave us the entire Canon in Jewish order from the first and last person to be murdered in the OT Matthew 23:35 "so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" Also the Jewish OT ends with the Jews going back to their land 2 Chronicles 36:23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up. Are Christian Bibles OT order has changed to reveal the Pre-Millennial return of Jesus Christ And our Old testament books are written in that order to recognize Jesus return. And our new testament ends with that promise Revelation 22:20-21 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. ((Even so, come, Lord Jesus.)) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
I am so sad that it's actually so remarkable to see a conservative Evangelical theologian engage so respectfully and so admiringly with a woman, a woman he clearly sees as his equal in the Kingdom. So few conservative men seem to be willing to engage with female scholars. Just last week on social media I was discussing theology, and a guy interrupted and told me to "get back into the kitchen cuz the dishes weren't finished." Even if I weren't already a provisionist, I would find your channel well worth my time.
I am so sorry to hear that!!! Wow. What nerve.
I experienced this as a Jewish believer and we left that church. Stoneage!!! The baptists seem to not have a problem with women learning and doing theology, yet conservative. Jewish orthodoxy women are so educated we can run our own services!! Where do believer get this from? !!!
Teaching within the church, as in with a local body of fellow believers that includes men, is outside the realm of what a woman is allowed to do. However, there's nothing wrong with a woman doing so in a scholarly environment or really any environment outside of a local body of believers. As an example, if I, as a man, had some kind of misconception about theology and a woman knew more than me about it and she pointed out to me where I was wrong then that would be a good thing. As another example, it would be wrong for that same woman to stand up on a stage and teach at a local church about theology to a group that included men.
I agree with you. At the age of 76 and after 40 plus years as a believer, I now find myself feeling completely censored in the High Calvinist church I am currently a part of. It’s terribly troubling.
@@LawlessNateI don’t agree with women pastors and am very uncomfortable with women teaching men within formal settings but some of these hardcore complementarian types take it much too far.
Walter C. Kaiser
Star wars, lord of the rings, but if I really want to hit it all you have to connect to the princess bride
I got to her web link.
More like this!!!!
When you’re talking about the Corporate and the Individual, you’re still using Logic.
Paul makes it very clear in Galatians and Romans that no one has ever been saved by anything but faith. Systems either ignore this or invent the concept of APPROPRIATION, and place that in the way of faith.
The ONLY thing new in the NT is the indwelling of the Spirit.
As we are talking about things Christian tradition teaches that the Bible never mentions, let me add three more. Eternal conscious torment, the end of the world, and a physical 1,000 year earthly kingdom. These are Christian presuppositions, but do they emerge from the story itself?
Star War movies come out in the wrong order because people would not sit and watch Darth Vader grow up and become. So they jump in at an action point and then go back afterward because people are hooked on the storys.
The prequels weren't even in George Lucas' mind when the originals came out. He decided to write a backstory after the originals were finished, which is why there are so many discrepancies between the originals and the prequels.
I like her comment that we should try more to find things that we agree on with other christians as opposed to differences. Unfortunately, the vast majority of christians cannot agree on the most important question.... What must a person do to be saved? Ugh
Leighton, you may find this useful in your ministry:
We can know "when" we are on God's prophetic calendar. It is written in the book of 2nd Esdras. Chapter 11 contains a prophecy that describes a line of American presidents, four of whom are still alive, and two of them are being kept until "the end." All of them are old men. "The end" is fast approaching.
Ezra wrote Second Esdras, chapters 11, 12, and 13 many centuries ago, long before the United States existed, yet he accurately describes a line of 15 US presidents starting with Hoover. This 100-year-long prophecy began fulfilling on March 4, 1929. It is now 95% complete. Its perfect fulfillment to this point has established its credibility. Ezra was not guessing.
I have condensed the prophecy into a series of short lessons - my gift to you. Please allow me to guide you through them, step by step, and into understanding. Blessings to you and your loved ones.
This would be even better without commercials
I must not be western minded because I would not immediately think, let's kill it and take it apart to see how it works. I would put it down and watch it. I'm not sure that's eastern and western minded as much as male and female minded. I get a thing that works good, I just keep using it until it doesn't anymore and then I find a man who will take it apart and figure out what went wrong. Sometimes boys will take stuff apart before it even breaks just to, like you said, see how it works. Not me though
Truethunedited see things in a Jewish way too.
When I say that God truly loves the world... I must be only referring to the elect. 😒
Drifting further Leighton…
"drifting" from what, exactly?
How so?
Towards truth
@@richardhammill8666 agreed. He's going in the right direction
My pastor knew LF back when he claimed to be a calvinist. He (my pastor) said "What is clear about LF is that he was never truly a Calvinist"
😂😂😂and I'm sure it's equally clear that it was determined by God for your pastor not to know that he wasn't a Calvinist when he claimed to be one, but then God determined for your pastor to know that he really wasn't when it became obvious that he wasn't one now 😂😂😂
@Unknown.servant wow... you're a hyper Calvinist. No bueno, my dude.
@ElwinRansom-r4z 😂😂😂......I guess I should have put a sarcasm note on my previous comment
@@Unknown.servant I know you're not. But my point is what you are describing is a hyper viewpoint of Calvinism. Unfortunately they happen to be the loudest among the Calvinists so they get all the attention despite being grossly wrong about their views. They also tend to believe since the elect are elect there's no need to evangelize. It truly is disgusting.
Once a calvanist always a calvanist?😂😂😂😂
I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding how Amber came up with her interpretation of the Torah. The bulk of the Torah involves the Mosaic Covenant which was a conditional covenant. There is a strong emphasis throughout on God's holiness and justice. And in the NT when Paul uses refers to "the law" he is almost always referring to the Torah, and speaks of it in negative terms. Because it was a conditional covenant its blessings were conditioned on Israel's obedience, and therefore was bound to fail at the outset. The Old Covenant's failure then set the stage for the redemptive work of Christ and the New Covenant.
I’m not a scholar, so this is just my 2¢.
The Mosaic Covenant was conditional, but that is how covenants work. There are blessings (benefits) and curses (consequences).
God’s holiness and Justice are not incongruous with His love. His love is not indifference, but seeks the greatest good for us. Sometimes that means pruning behaviors and thought patterns. When a person becomes so wedded to destructive thoughts and actions that they can not be extricated from them, God ratifies their choice and brings destruction upon them, and in so doing protects the greater community from the wickedness metastasizing.
Paul’s emphasis on his writings were on the weakness of the Law to do what we need, not that the Law itself was bad.
Romans 3:31 (ESV) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Romans 7:7 (ESV) What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 7:12 (ESV) So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
@@shaunschulte2258 I would agree with most of what you said, except that the New Covenant, strictly speaking, is not conditional in that it is based on our works. It's God's promises to us in His grace.
And yes, the las in itself is good, but as a conditional covenant with Israel it was a failure.
What makes one human able to say yes and one human not able?? Let’s say all is equal..social status, education, health, exact same effective Gospel presentation, etc. Both see God’s goodness and both understand it is a free gift that must be received. Question: What makes the one who “chooses” God able to do so?? Smarter, better/cleaner heart, wanted it more, more human effort…??? Without God intentionally touching the one who chooses and sovereignly not touching the one who did not choose…what made the difference??
Why assume that the will is a mechanism rather than a personal faculty? Why couldn't the difference be the actual person deciding rather than assuming they lack some ability that others have?
Your questions are inherently flawed as you're demanding something besides the agent to be the cause of their choice.
That's it, that's all there is to it. An individual chooses for themselves. There may be factors that could influence a person, but nothing is causing or determining them what to choose except the individual themselves. Their choice could be rational or irrational, so it's not A+B=C. It's just a self determining choice.
Ability is granted to all by the Creator. You're acting like ability and the actual decision made are one and the same. No, prove that before you assert that cart before the horse. True free will IS the default basis for Old Testament Hebrew thought. That's a very large part of what Amber drove at in this discussion. You sound like you didn't listen.
Great question. Answer: free will. The mindset of your question suggests that people are just products of their surroundings. Recognizing that you need God doesn't make you a better person. God holds us all accountable for what we do with the gospel. Accept it or reject it. That decision is not a work that merits anything, but God has told us that the people who accept are the ones He has mercy on. That is the gift from God, not the ability to accept the gospel.
@@trebmaster
I didn’t listen to this discussion but I’m on a journey of determining how to best grasp and then to lead others in terms of God’s sovereignty and salvation. I’m not an Armenian or Calvinist. I am a believer in all things Christ and in the Bible from start to finish. I am convinced no one can come to God on his own merits or by choice without help from God. I see God choose from beginning to end in Scripture and I also see God ask some to choose. My question is aimed at the “free will” in Salvation Christians bc I’m trying to see your viewpoint. What in your human effort or ability or circumstance gave you the ability to say yes and not your i.e. twin brother who experience life the same?? Why could you humble yourself but not they?
When you’re talking about the Corporate and the Individual, you’re still using Logic.