STOLEN GTO? FAKE? TAG JOB? PHS SAYS - 1965 GTO REVIVAL
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
- The PHS report is in on the 1965 Pontiac GTO. Is this GTO the real deal or just another clone? Or worse is this a tag job , stolen hodge podge of a car? Our friend Mustie1 stopped by to see the new shop and gives us his take on the story of this iconic muscle car. Join in on this cars journey as the revival continues with a first start in years !
Mustie1 YT channel - / mustie1 - Авто та транспорт
What is your take on this car? Drop a comment and let me know.
The "experts" say it isn't a GTO, you say it is, and I say hopefully it's not stolen, either way. When you finish deciphering the codes, you can either restore it (true GTO), or build a tribute car (LeMans). Make it what you want.😁👍
I hope you find a number on the frame that matches the other tags. Would be less valuable but better than a stolen GTO that gets you into trouble…
Personally I think it is a GTO, at least the body. Even if it isn’t you should build a killer replica. I mean, who really cares if you are keeping it? You could find a much more trashed GTO, is that better? Great series J!
Jason.... i left you a message in your initial GTO video.....did you pull the back seat out, and see if you can find a build sheet? Second possible places - in the back seat window panels, and on top of your gas tank. Long shot, but if you can find the remnants of one, you'll know what it was originally built to be!
Otherwise, you have a "Le Goat" !🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐
Nice car Jason , You live up north. Could of been rusted, Hot Rodded or wrecked down in a ditch .Engine blown at some point Who knows ? . Two guys or a guy got together put his car back on the road . Swapped out tags. Great find for you and surely you can get it going. Killer shop !
Stolen cars and rolled odometers were ABSOLUTELY common place in the 60s and 70s.
So much time has passed that many of these old cars and trucks have been wrecked, stolen, rebuilt or whatever. I think we're long past the point of there being many hidden gems left.
Have had these cars for over 45 years. Gto was an option on the lemans and shared the same rear ribbed panel. Only the base Tempest had the 9 ribs. Also, the checkered flag speedo only came when the Rally Dash was ordered with the tach. Most GTOs had the cluster you have. My take: this is a real GTO and not a LeMans. The quarter holes, the pedals, the Fontaine Blue, it all adds up to a GTO with swapped plates. Probably due to theft decades ago. But take heart: it’s now a lemans with the GTO option 382!
Exactly right.
Yep it clicked when he mentioned the checkered flags because I've been in quite a few that had the same cluster
Yes...The GTO has 3 holes in the rear quarter panel for the GTO emblem. The Lemans has 12 holes in the rear quarter panel for the seperate letters. I just went out in the garage and looked in my 1965 Lemans trunk.
I hate to say this but YOU GOT IT BACKWARDS....That car was Stolen and Lemans Tags were put on it so it could be titled...Look and see if it has a Limited Slip. My 65 GTO came with a 3-speed . they were avalable with both 3 and 4 speeds. Insurance was cheaper with the 3 speed. Check teh engine numbers and see if it is a 389. The Frame has a Vin Stamped on it but you need to lift the body off to read it!
I agree he should lift the body off.
It looks like you might be right.
That was exactly what I was thinking from early on too. Good call!
Actually, a bore scope,or even a mirror and a light will reveal the numbers... There is no need to waste time removing the body from the chassis...
It’s a No Freaking Brainer 🧠 … Don’t be stupid, Definitely stolen car and good vin and body tag to title !!! 🤪 😂 🤪
I can tell you right now without any question that the vin tag you showed has been swapped out. GM NEVER affixed these tags with a standard rivet. The rivet used was a rossette style, or in other words, it had a flower shaped head. Someone pulled the tag and riveted this with a standard rivet. Also, the data tag on the firewall was a hollow rivet, I couldn't see in your video, but at the factory, these rivets were filled in with body sealant when they sealed the firewall. Look to see how these are presented. Also look at PHS, the serial numbers on the build sheet will have the engine serial number and the transmission number. The transmission will have a metal tag mounted on the side. Also, when the body is lifted off the frame on the rear drivers side, another serial number will be stamped on the frame. It can really only be seen with the body taken off. All these numbers should correspond with the build sheet provided they have not been swapped out. I firmly believe that you have GTO that, as you have said, someone stole the tags. As someone else mentioned, look under the rear seat and under the gas tank between the trunk. All cars had these build sheets placed in these locations during assembly, and these sheets should match your PHS and provide you with more clarity to what you truly have. It's pretty sickening that this was done should it turn out these tags were swapped. Do you have any ownership history that you could trace? Im sorta on the confused side as to why you didn't look deeper into obtaining PHS prior to purchasing, or maybe I'm missing the timeline sequence of events leading uo to discovering all this. I wish you good luck and hope you can get the answers from some of the things I have suggested to look for.
Back in 65, all you had to do to steal a car was take a wire and connect to coil and battery roll the car and pop clutch in gear and go. By 65 everyone wanted one. Just find a wrecked leMans and take the vin and put on a stolen GTO. I was around at the time. GTOs wetr getting stolen soo often 🧐
Fenders on Lemans and GTO are the same. Just the GTO has an emblem and Lemans a Fenders fins emblem probably from the same car the vin and body tag came from 💁♂️
Cool building !
Needs a little sound deadening 😂 or he needs to use a mic when he's 20 ft from the camera 😖
thank you Dan....yes it had to really tweak the audio as the lights in there are sooo noisy . I have to change them to led
yea I was checking that out too....way bigger. but now he needs to get a LIFT in there.
@@Mikefngarage Nice to see you round here Mike!
In the early 80’s I had a 66 Tempest, Automatic. Sold it to a friend who also had a 67 GTO, manual. He wrecked the Tempest and we got a 4 door Lemans with a good Frame and swapped it out. Perfect fit, to be honest. Had parts all over the yard. This was a common thing. Will be fun to see what your frame numbers indicate.
It's tricky on these old cars. My mom had a 64 Tempest convertible with all the GTO stuff except the drivetrain, which was a straight six with a powerglide. I had a 70 Chevelle and the build sheet said 350 horse 396 with M22 transmission, 3.73 posi, bucket seats, console, SS gauges, the works. But it wasn't a SS, just optioned like one.
I was 100% sure my 1955 Chevy Nomad (in primer, empty rolling shell) had all original sheetmetal until I took off the front clip. Bent frame horns showed that frame had been in accident at some point. Obviously a front end crash would necessitate new sheetmetal. I’m not doing a restoration so not too upset about that. The interesting thing is the accident happened so long ago that the paint job on the front was completely faded and matched the rest of the car. My Nomad is 10 years older than your car, but both all old enough to have issues nobody is around to talk about any more.
Coming from the rust belt I am going with the frame rotted out and they swapped it. That's my best case. My gut tells me its stolen though.
I think it has been proven and documented that the majority of it is a GTO, and therefore, I do agree that it is, in fact, a GTO with wrong vin tags.
i like it Joseph
Stolen GTO 😂
@@davehotz7810 not necessarily could be a junk yard put together from random old parts
The new shop looks awesome buddy! Good to see you and M1 hanging out. I'll come up and help you remove the body! I'm a pro! hahah! 😆🤣😂
Digging the new shop btw,lots more space and sooo much quieter than the old cramped one was !!
Someone had a crashed GTO, bought a funky Le Man's and made one out of two
nah, car was never crashed , hood is OG
Looks like it just got relegated to future project status, one that can wait until AFTER you get the shop set up & functional.
Once the info came back from PHS, COMBINED with visibly incorrect rivets for vin/data plates, it means there's no legitimacy for it being GTO. Yet, it doesn't mean it couldn't be a fun project, but now you've revealed the issue, so how can you EVER get it LEGAL for registration/insurance??
Mustie makes an excellent point, that its something that happened years ago, when the car wasn't worth much. It's possible the project(then) never got finished, & here's the issue now 50 some yrs later.
I stupidly (I guess) built a one off car like this back in the late 1980’s. My ‘70 GTO got rear ended hard, way beyond my skills at the time. I bought a ‘70 lemans Sport as a parts car. They sat beside each other for almost a year and I got discouraged about fixing the GTO and decided to put ALL those parts on the LeMans. I had no idea of the value of the Goat at the time but it’s options were tinted glass, deluxe wheel covers, a console/floor shift, and …a 455. It had manual drum brakes all around, no power steering, no nuthin extra and a 3sp manual! Very low production numbers on 455/3sp manual cars.
The LeMans got all of it, the brakes, engine/trans, clutch pedal and linkage, rear (3:55 gears), sway bars, control arms (boxed in the rear) the support braces for the rear control arm mounts, non A/C heater box, dash, front clip with the rad support and radiator, rear valance with the exhaust cut outs. Anything that was different on the GTO went on the LeMans and I had both cars apart side by side to compare even little stuff like rear bumper hardware.
What I did not do was swap the data tags or put GTO badges on it anywhere, I even put the LeMans badge in the grill and on the fenders with the Sport chevrons on the front fenders. I was kinda proud of it until I realized the value of the GTO 😳 a few years later (what was left of the GTO was long gone).
Divorce forced the sale of the car in 2003 and it went to N Florida, I have fantasized about tracking it down but I doubt that will ever happen. If it’s still a car, I bet more than one person has scratched their head over this odd collection of parts, I believe in ‘71 you could order a LeMans with the Endura nose on it but that wasn’t an option in ‘70 so this was an impossible car. It was a solid car with very little rust, never wrecked and sporting original red paint when I had it, the white vinyl top had rotted and I had cleaned all that off and painted the top black semigloss enamel. Anyway I’m rambling now but this car was part of the family for many years and I got to feelin a little nostalgic. It’s possible this car has an odd story like that also maybe.
Good to see you and Mustie..
thank you Glenn, always a good day when M1 comes to town. He wanted to help me work on something but I was cooked from the week of emptying the old shop and i just wanted to hang out
Man that is a nice shop.
thank you
Yes and he has to pay for it now so please subscribe, lol!
Idk what car is that, but what matters is that it couldnt be cooler
CORRECT! "Hard Top convertible " later known as "Sport coup" are my favorite. But the post cars are something around 150 pounds lighter.
That pretty crazy. It kinda adds up to stolen, but you never know. It will be interesting to see what the frame #s say. The new garage looks great!
Master cylinder is wrong for sure,1965 car would have single circuit. I'm thinking it was originally a three speed on the column car, hence the mismatch between steering column sleeve and steering wheel. Check the frame for the fork that holds one end of the z bar.
for sure! and if it's a posi.
@@yepyep340 having a posi , is not a sure sign of a GTO . You could order a Tempest with one .
@@bobbrinkerhoff3592 True. But lets check to see and add to the theory it's a GTO with Lemans tag.
Thought the master cylinder was wrong also? Swaping in pedal assemblies isn't hard. I bought a 64 Chevy truck,good runner ,nice stepside, cab was all kinds of messed up,bo I got a big back window truck took the cab and dog house and put it on the shortbed stepside , presto!!!!
See if you can find the build sheet behind the rear seat.
Cheers guys
Your stolen vin tags are probably on a restored le mans posing as a GTO in a museum, or a guys garage somewhere.
no matter how it turns out, that model, that make, that year, all encapsulates the mid 1960's kickass, balls out , pre epa era!
Call the State Police they can find out if it is stolen. I had a 67 Camaro that had hidden Vin # stamped on the firewall underneath the fan blower motor !
Just love your optimism so I reckon your right it's a GTO cause u deserve it
That building is beautiful!!! I'm so jealous!
thank you , I was in my old shop for the last time today with my son ....we were damn , this place sucks lol
Excellent video Jason :) , Darren :) also say think same you both saying about that car and big puzzle to find out to what is ! Also hope find out what it this car and be interesting to know!
So… could be a GTO with a replacement LeMans front clip & dash & they just used the LeMans’ tags? Any way to check the windshield for date codes too? Also are there differences in GTO/LeMans radiators you can check? Your friend’s idea of GTO body on a LeMans frame is also viable. Can’t wait till you ID the frame.
It's going to drive you nuts not knowing!
In my late teens had a friend who bought a 70 gto judge. Teal with orange trim, 3 speed in the floor. Had been wrecked. We found a farmer that had a 70 LeMans bad body good frame. He wanted it gone, so I was free. Motor was a Ram Air 3 noisy rods but it ran. I was riding in the back when he got on it. Pulled Hard! He pulled the motor to rebuild it. Put in a 400 out of a totaled 76 TA. Had the spoiler,trim over fenders and logo on glove box, as well as functional RA hood and in side pull for fresh air to hood. Very cool car. Back in that time most folks thought of it ugly and a gas hog. They moved away. And I lost track of them. Great memories.
Factory rivets should be kind os star shaped
yes 👍
I still love this car!!!
1965 is my all time favorite....🤗
me too , thank you Tony
Jason, I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but have you looked for a Build Sheet behind the rear seat or behind the door skins?
The Plot thickens!! Haha i loved this episode!! "Good cop, bad cop" with mustie1!! Haha
Dilemma!! But does it matter? Its cool, its old school, has the GTO badge, just rock it!
It is fun though... the theories and investigation. Congrats on the new place. No more headaches i hope?!
When your 53 and your dad had a 65 like mine you pay attention. Dad had a power brake booster in his that he had to change out. Circa 1975. Then the dash ribbing like this one. Dads was a two speed auto with white interior. His was red with a white hard top and have been looking for it the last 3 years. In California. Starting to be rare car!
OK, the engine number SHOULD match part of the VIN and the rear end numbers also would match to some of them. As for the frame numbers, there are several places it will be stamped , usually on the top of the rails halfway between the front and rear kick out. It's not easy to chase them down, but Mustie is right about it possibly being stolen ages ago.
Not always. GM didn't start stamping VIN numbers on engines and transmissions consistently until the 1968 model year.
Mustie1on the job ,,💯,, 👍
he wanted to turn some wrenches that day ...i was just like man, i've moving cars and stuff all week....lets just hang out :)
Awesome video!
We thank you
@@5150mxVW We want to confirm if sample is safety. wait for your reply via email.
Hey! A Mustie1 cameo appearance.
Great shop Jason! Stoked that you have a big space now…. Maybe get a lav mic as there is a big echo when you are at a distance from the camera
🤙
Thank you Jimmy , the lights on the shop are brutal noisy . I had to turn back round noise reduction to 50% and use hum reduction . Plus I only had my gopro when Mustie1 was there and GoPros are useless without a mic . I will look into the mic , thanks for the tip
@@5150mxVW Your welcome Jason. Keep up the great content!! 👍🇬🇧
I would never ever bet against Mustie! I hope you didn't pay GTO prices for it. In any case, I hope you are right. Glad to see you posting again! Is this your new shop?
Check the hidden VINs and the rivets holding the VIN plate on. If it is stolen be a good guy and return it to the true owner. A lot of ways to determine the month and year the body was made vs. the trim tag.
The checkered flag on speedo only came with the Rally Gauge package which I believe also came with a tach. Mine doesn't have either one. I put a Sun tach in far right pod which fit perfectly.
Gto in 65 didn't have a rear sway bar. Chassis was probably tempest. Some gto s were titled as tempests.
i believe pontiac never used a rear sway bar.
I just like the fact that the engine is in the front. Sure, bugs are fun or I wouldn’t watch the channel. But a rustored LeGoat is a nice build.
Great car and great story ! More to dixover I think !
thank you PsG
My guess is that someone's worrying too much about authenticity or if it is or isn't instead of getting it running and driving and fixed up and enjoying it as a GTO was a LeMans with special badging,engine performance enhancements,etc but still a LeMans GTO. Fix it and drive it or sell it and forget it...
when you've wanted a GTO as long as he has , authenticity does matter
I hear you WL and I'll roll it for what it is but when you pay GTO money you want a GTO....like Gen X said I've wanted a GTO for 40 years :)
@5150mxVW Ahhh,didn't realize that it was bought at genuine gto price J, in which case yeah I'd be ill as hell at someone along with myself ..
As a VW guy you should be well familiar with how hard it can be to figure out what you've got when dealing with vehicles that have easily interchangeable parts across many years and models. :p
It might be a long shot but if you pull the body off the frame check for a vin on the right rear of frame rail.might be one stamped on the frame.
Those VW bugs look so awesome behind this thing. Time to roll this thing out. LOL. Just giving you a poke in the ribs.
You're correct about the quarters looking to be GTO body. I believe that the Tempest is the one with 10 ribs and the Lemans tail panel was identical to GTO. Those rivets aren't rosette.
It is the entire VIN number on the frame I believe.
I think that was a standard shift GTO that was Fontaine Blue with black interior.
There's a partial vin# in the trunk drip rail !!! & a partial vin# on the cowl too
This isn't a MOPAR!!!!
Clutch z bar bracket was welded onto the frame on the early a bodys (64-67). But only on the manual cars.. so that should tell you what the frame is. EDIT: just rewatched and I can see the z bar bracket on your frame, so unless someone welded it on at some point that is a manual trans chassis.
Not all GTOs had the rally gages with the tach and checkered flag on the speedometer. A lot came with gages like yours but they did have chrome around the inside on each side. The brake booster was just a single master cylinder. The BEST way is to cut in the trunk and find the vin number on the drivers side upper frame rail under where you were looking.
I’m with Mustie on this one, think it may be a Lemans or a Tempest frame underneath a GTO body. Or at least from the front clip back
the original was totalled and they stuck the tags and the hardware onto a Lemans.
😏
Lemans tags put on a GTO body.
@@kevinstufflebeam2753 yup, sure could be.
does the floor have the original bucket seat mounts to fit bucket seats or are they shimmed up because it had a bench seat?
3.90 was the popular rear end for the GTO.
Don't feel bad, I was ripped off with a 68 Pontiac GTO convertable that turned out to be a Lemans. But hey, it was still a fun car. I have also seen 65 Lemans with the 389 tripower from the factory.
Very cool 🤙 I just bid on a 65 Leman. I'll see if I have it soon
good luck !
One other detail, check the numbers on the block, and the numbers on the passenger side of the transmission near the bottom lip where the vacuum module goes. The numbers should match each other if they are original and they should match the last digits or the vin.
There is no VIN number stamped on a 1965 block, is it a 65 block???
I don't care if it's original or not. Just build it into a tribute and enjoy😀
It's a good car. I wouldn't bogged down if it's a real GTO or not. At this point in time it's just a good car that needs some work to be a driver. If you're keeping it, just enjoy it and fix her up here and there as you go. As long as the frame is solid, you're good to go forward with repairs/restorations of the various systems, etc. Also get the VIN tag(s) issues figured out so you can register/title it.
Well at least you rescued it. Someone out here would love to have that car no matter if it's a GTO Or LeMans. A fully restored GTO will cost a fortune. You got something you can work with
They only things we know for sure are that those tags do not belong to that car....and its a pretty cool car :)
The Lemans didn't have 10 ribs on the tail lights--it was the same piece that the GTO got.
The Tempest had a 10 rib center panel and tail light lenses with 5 molded ribs.
Might also be a partial vin on the cowl area near the heater box. Good luck.
thank you
I agree with Mustie1. Its half of a GTO.
Does the car have an ID dealer delivery paper behind the rear seat or under the gas tank?
I gotta agree w Mustie. I’m thinking 1970s backyard swap a roo. Either way it’s a cool car. Build it up!
thank you DwP
I'm going with your theory Jason someone took off your GTO VINs and added them to their LeMans. The PHS is just going by the VINs that are on the car now saying it's not a GTO.
I hope it's a Goat for your sake but if you like it,it doesn't matter. Run with it!
GTL! LOL! that is cold!
nice job.
Hi Jim
It was not the 70's I did it in the early 80's😂🤣😂 One of my 1965 GTOs was stollen 3 times. Damn wind wing is easy access.
It's a Lemans if the frame is a Lemans. A good body doesn't make the car in total a good, it's a lemans.
Well buddy, crossing my fingers you've got an actual GTO, but either way it's still a pretty bad ass looking car I'd be happy to build up and drive. I think you're still in a good spot with it.
thank you , i agree ...just trying to figure out it's history
The master cylinder is a later model. The 67 model year was the first year for the dual pot design. How many volts does the water pump have? If it's 8 it's a 1968 or older engine or at least they changed the timing cover. GTO's could have single wheel peel. Check under the rear seat. There might be a build sheet.
A lot of the information in the comments is not totally correct. A Lemans and GTO tail panel and tail lights are the same. Look for squared off end on sway bar , if so it's a GTO bar , if round it's Lemans. If you don't want to lift body, what is the date code on frame behind left rear wheel on side of frame rail.
One question.....is the engine a 326 or 400. did you check the numbers? If I recall correct Lemans came with 326 and GTO came with 400. Run the engine numbers.
I stand corrected 326 or 389....they look the same on the outside. again I am doing this from memory. They should look the same but 326 was lemans and 389 was gto.........
A couple things I noticed - Pontiac didn't use dual chamber master brake cylinders until 1967, so the brake cylinder in your car was swapped in; it originally would have had a single chamber type. Second, I can't say for sure about GTOs and Tempests but the hole in the floor for shifter wouldn't necessarily be a nice neat hole. I have a '61 Bonneville with a factory four speed, and the hole in the floor looked like it had been chopped out with an ax - workers on the production line would just punch a hole when it was needed. Having said that it's possible that GTOs had a more uniform hole since so many of them were equipped with a manual transmission. Finally, I wonder if there may be a VIN stamped somewhere else on the body...for instance, I've heard of some cars having it stamped on the firewall behind where the heater assembly bolts on, but again I don't know if this was the case with a GTO.
Like Durwood said,I'd prefer a matching numbers whatever vehicle over a frankensteined non matching anything,however if I ran across this Lemans and the price was right I'd have jumped on it,and worked on getting it running,stopping,handling,driving,looking good and to hell with if it is or isn't because a person either wants a LeMans/Tempest or they just want a GTO to say they have a GTO... 🙄
My guess is since you guys live in the Rust Belt the frame rotted out and somebody replaced the frame with a junkyard frame
It's a mix of stolen parts. Mustie is probably right.
You could have a GTO body with a Lemans cowl and frame.
It’s possible
So GTO were tideled as Tempist to lower the Insurance CT Thing in the 60's and 70's
if by some crazy chance the motor is correct to the body there is a partial vin on the front of the block
Definitely a Goat body. Can't wait to see what the hidden Vin reveals. I think just the tags were switched.
thank you , myself as well
Being British I don't know all the variables I confess but Musti 1's take on this car seems to make sense to me. I know you want a GTO but I am not convinced you have the real deal there I am sorry to say. Someone has hacked that car about for whatever reason, possibly criminal? Things like that were easy to do back then. It happened here too, the cars were cheap so people did questionable things even 'cut & shut' (this is not a 'cut & shut). I will look forward to the 'will it run' video and I wont mind if I am proved wrong but I am getting old and I would like to think some experience counts. Take care Jason and thanks for the detective video. 😁👍👍
It will be nice to know if you can locate the hidden VIN numbers on the vehicle at some point. I'm interested to see if it reveals it's a LeMans or GTO. I owned a 65 GTO before I was drafted into the Army back in 1972. At the time I was like the 5th or 6th owner of the car.
The original 389 was gone and replaced by a 400 out of a Firebird.
Someone had put a tripower carb set-up on it. From what I found out the car was raced a lot on the streets of Allentown Pa. I got rid of it in 1973 I had my father sell it for me after I got to Ft. Carson Colorado.
Out there I bought a 68 Nova SS with a tired 327 that I rebuilt. Then later trade even up for a tired 70 Cuba 440 six pack car that needed a ton of work. Those were the days. I hope your ride is a GTO great story and I'm looking forward to the next part of the saga 😁
My 65 is a Lemans and I cloned it to look like a GTO. I have had 3 1965 Lemans and 2 true 1965 GTOs. The one I have is solid. I just put a Ls2 and a Currie 9" in my clone. So blame me. I do not give 1/4 shit. IT'S MINE!
OH is the rear a posi?
Did the PHS tell you what Zone and Dealer this car was sold out of, if not what is the code in the upper left corner of the car billing history card they sent you.
When he's right, he's right, sometimes.
It’s a GT-Nooooooo
Asa teenager in 60’s I remember a friend Gary had a LeMans he converted to a GTO. It was very common back then. But only his friends knew the difference. His buddy Carl converted his Falcon 6cyl to a 289 with a badge and hood locks. We were poor teenagers!