Wow, the amount of effort to model and then build all these enclosures is phenomenal. You did an excellent job of both. I have always wondered what the differences would be in real life and not just computer software modeling, now I know. Thank you VERY MUCH for your effort and time and $$$$$$ spent on this educational exercise. The Best video on this subject by far!
Great video! This is the first time I’ve actually seen someone model, build, and measure so many different enclosures. I’d love to see how a t-line compares!
There are a few videos. My own experiences with TLines were favorable. Put a 15” Skar VVX in one. That enclosure was somewhere around the +10 cu ft mark. Very flat response but nowhere near the output of a ported design 1/3 its size. I prefer other designs in car audio but my computer speakers are TQWT that I built. I get compliments on them often.
At one point in my life I worked at wholesale car audio Warehouse. I had a ball playing with every single speaker, box, crossover, amplifier, head unit, Gadget that came into that place for the too years that I was there. It was a great learning experience, When I was ready to install my own system I knew exactly what I wanted made things a lot easier for me they would even let me borrow equipment and install it in my car. couldn't ask for anything more. Out of all the sales people that were there nobody really knew what was going on or was even into the equipment so when people would come into buy ,they would always come over to me.
Cool. Those must have been the good old days where you could get a job about having a link the amount of experience and credentials in a field. I put in an application at a local car audio and window tinting shop and they said they're looking for people with 3 years of experience. Like couldn't they just teach me? Is it that hard to teach somebody the ropes and pointers with car audio or is it just there being lazy? Because like yeah they might want somebody with 3 years of experience but if somebody has 3 years of experience then why aren't they currently doing car audio? It seems like they're just keeping the same amount of people in the trade or keeping the circle very small because I really believe I would excel at this type of work and I'm a quick learner and this is geared right toward how my mind works but when you walk into a shop to apply and they scoff at you when you tell them you don't have experience but you want to learn on the job then screw that type of arrogance. Like I just need the opportunity to learn in person and hands on because there's only so much you can really relate to and comprehend out of a UA-cam video.
Have any of you tryed the Earthquake Slap's passive radiator's? The 10s, and 12s Slap's unit's, have 4 inches= 100 mm of Total= Peak to peak X Max, and the 15 inch Slap's, has 4 and a half inches= 112.5 mm of Total X Max! Plus the Slap's unit's, are designed to perform best in the active/powered subwoofer's mfg. rec. sealed enclosure size= not the ported size, like most people think. Also less cancellation will occur with the active driver(s), NOT on the same plane as the passive(s). The guy in this video did a great job, thank you very much, for taking the time, to do this video for us all❤️
Great explanation! Mostly confirmed what I thought I already knew, the thing I came to realize from this presentation is that I've never appreciated passive radiators enough. I've been building and installing car audio systems since the late 80s until the early 2000's (before I had to get a real job lol), and I was mainly trained by Orion and Pioneer (not a big pioneer fan, but boy, is their technical training ever good!) and to a lesser extent by the other companies that the various stores I worked for carried like MTX, Sony, SAS, Coustic, Eclipse, Nakamichi, Dennon, Clarion, etc. etc. etc... I even owned my own upholstery and car audio shop for a few years (super fun, but didn't make much money at it, turns out you cant charge for the full 37 hours you have into a pair of super custom, factory looking, leather wrapped Audi door pods that fit three 6" speakers and tweeters each). I understood that there were those vehicles out there that allowed you to have enclosure choices, that you needed the driver's TS parameters to calculate and design the optimal enclosure for that driver. My reality was that 99% of my customers wanted to put 10's and 12's (even 15's and 18's) behind and under seats where they would physically fit but there was nowhere near enough air space. So my reality was that I was almost always building enclosures for the vehicle not the driver. I mean, I really tried to get as much airspace as I could possibly get, I often used fibreglass bottoms and backs on my enclosures to conform as tightly as possible to the curvatures of the vehicle. There was some really impressive bass from small spaces and it was tight and clean and those customers rarely blew their subs and were usually pretty happy. When you sell and install the same gear over and over, you get a really good sense of what it should or can sound like in an optimal enclosure vs a small sealed enclosure. I always knew the sub woofers were limited by their small sealed airspace but that was the sacrifice that had to be made. Now that I understand passive radiators more, I really regret not having used them years ago in those small sealed enclosures that severely limited their sub woofers. My systems could have been so much better... So much better...
In the old days hanging your amps upside down caused them to run hot! I was taught that any position except upside down was ok. You spent a lot of time here,good job.
Great information! Very concise and well thought out. Love it when people can model AND build AND be extremely well spoken. Keep up the good work my friend!
What I've been looking for many years has been explained in this video very explicitly.Great Job Marcus.Looking for more loudspeaker/enclosure related videos
I've just recently come across your channel and I must say it is awesome. Thanks for making these great, informative videos. The amount of time you put into the videos is incredible! I have two comments on the video. First is that most people tune their ported boxes higher. 22.5 is crazy low for car audio. I know you were going for the flat response, but most people would tune in the 28-34 range in favor of output. Second thing is that these boxes all have different group delay so they will sound different. Output and box size isn't the whole story IMO.
Wow! best enclosure video on youtube. You got my subscribe. From all boxes, passive radiator is most satisfying. Its small efficient and have a nice low end and SQ. Really impressed!
I have a 10" subwoofer that I built a box for, about 1.13 ft³, and it sounded great and everything but decided to build a ported box, about 1.58 ft³, and I used a flared 3" port tuned to about 37Hz, and MAN what a difference that made in volume! I was able to maintain great sound quality in terms of listening to metal music and I get even lower lows, super happy with it!
Fantastic video! You actually explained many concepts that I've been struggling to understand for a while now. Very nice presentation and editing as well. I appreciate the little bits of humor here and there also. You just got a new sub (scriber, not woofer, lol) from this video. ;)
I’ve been a huge fan of Audio Judgement, your website and blog, and have learned so much there. I’m really glad to see you with a UA-cam channel. Much love and respect from a huge fan and colleague.
Wow, I dont think most people understand the amount of work and knowledge you put into making that video. Great comparison and awsome editing. To the "know it all commenters".....make your own video.
awesome. for the next video, cover 5th, 7th, and 8th order boxes to see what was missed. I remember an audio shop in TX where the owner made and sold (single) 10" 5th order boxes that he made along side all of the other home audio gear. He didn't do the installing, he just sold the raw 5th order box with and w/o the driver...
way back in 1999, i had 1 12" pheonix gold xmax in a 1cubic foot sealed box running off a 400watt mtx amp, mtx crossover and a kenwood excelon head unit and that 1 sub absolutely hammered, i mean i could be heard over 1/4 mile away across a field according to my friends, it was sick!
so far i think im either going to go for a full size sealed, or a passive small, i dont like messing with ports because i seem to always mess up ports.
How would a transmission line (T-line) box fit in to all this. Its main goal is to have a wide frequency band like a sealed enclosure, but with higher output due to being a ported enclosure
I don’t think you would see a higher output. That’s just based on my personal experience with them. You can achieve a very wide and frequency band that is very linear. If it was built properly and stuffed and remeasured and adjusted until optimal, I think you’d see response that is similar but more favorable to the sealed box. BUT the enclosure would be larger.
@@TheLayinLo Yes, that would make sense, as you need a lot of space to make up the line. So, for small spaces, sealed or passive radiators is the better option
wow wow wow.. Truly awesome work!! Great explanation. I hope you get a lot more views and can share this knowledge because it will help many people. Awesome 👍🏼 Thank you!!
well remember the cabin gains, that is almost the exact gains added to the 4th order. I was hoping you would catch that. Overlaying the car gain and the 4th order.
I really want to learn more about passive radiators.. It just seems like there is a huge lack of knowledge about them except for the super top secret labs of major audio brands. How do you tune them? What size do you need? What does the suspension compliance do? Can you just tack some radiators on to the side of an already built sealed box?
passive radiator does a great job as opposed to using a port if you have the room it does an amazing job although a lot of people just add another woofer as opposed to a passive radiator when it comes to a car I had some home speakers that look like they had two 10-in woofers in each box until one of them blew when I took them apart to repair that's when I found out that it had one 10-in woofer and one passive that speaker had tremendous sound coming out of it considering it was only one 10-in woofer thing sounded great and it was an off-brand piece of junk
Typically u need twice the surface area worth of PR as the active driver. You tune the PR by adding weight (steel washers) to the rear suspension section of the PR
@@Forcefed2002 Why do you need twice the surface area? I mean what would happen if you added let's say hypothetically, 2 12 inch PR's to a sealed box with 2 15's. Would the tuning be so far off that it would sound bad? would they just over extend? Can you compensate with extra weight?
@@trev6783 I don't know - it's just the most common alignment used when enlisting PR's. It's just how it's modeled for a satisfactory freq response curve.
would be interesting to see a `small` plugged ported box freq response and db. ive done some testing with different density plugs with good results. so a happy(?) medium of sealed and bassreflex
In terms of clarity, or accuracy, or transient responce or fast bass for instrumentals drum beats which enclosure is better ??? Sealed is popular opinion and then bass reflex, and then remaining designs. Hope this is right ??
I'm talking about the box size, not the port diameter. If the box get's smaller and the port diameter stays the same, then you need a longer port to maintain the tuning frequency.
1.)What is it about 6th order enclosure box design that everyone says the formulas are prone to error? 2.) What does the formula look like? 3.) Where/how does this error occur? 4.) How do you recalculate to fix the error? Thank you for your time.👋😄👍☮
It's not that there is an error in the formula. It's the fact that when you build the box, there will be differences. Either you have some small leakages that you are not aware. Maybe you are using flared ports and flare approximation in not accurate. There are a number of things that will make your finished box have a slight difference compared to the modeled box. And for a BP6 enclosure, small differences have a larger impact on the frequency response compared to a sealed or bass reflex box.
Ports or passive radiators do not extend frequency response. Ports supply a” drone tone” at the tuning frequency. This means if I apply a 25 Hz test tone, the speaker will emit that frequency, but the port will emit the box tuning frequency. A microphone only measures pressure, so it adds the drone tone pressure of the “wrong frequency” with the speaker driver output of the correct frequency. The box is a helmholtz resonator.
What about porting the ported enclosures through the "ski pass-through"? I'm trying to do something like this with my GS400, where the port would be located and fire directly under the 10" hole in the rear deck, where the factory subwoofer was removed, so that those soothing pressure waves can travel into the car. The sealed box I built sounds great when the trunk is open, and I'm standing behind the car, but not much bass makes it into the cabin space.
You know you can make the port stick out of the enclosure, right? We don't do that because it looks awkward, but in this case it's perfect. Also, if the port is not inside the box, the box can be smaller. Furthermore, I suggest a 4th order bandpass enclosure where you have just the port radiating sound.
I've always loved my bandpass box it really had a intense Thump in my suv. And my subs at home are passive I get really crazy lows for movies. I am throwing my sub in a ported box tomorrow in the suv as an experiment I know my mirrors are gonna shift like crazy...
what if a dual active sub push pull sealed design ? mutliple drivers ported ? / mutliple driver sealed ?/ mutliple drivers with bass radiator as thicc or larger surface and heavier cone ? or basiclly made the same thing as this but with 2 or more active drivers ? looking foward to see more about mutliple drivers n passive radiators
the more i learn, the more i dont want to invest any more into building boxes. too many variables and unaccounted engineering to spoil the party. good thing space is always my leading constraint. GREAT video and presentation!
I'm really learning. Thanks a bunch Got Morel Ultimo SC 12" inch sub 10hz-900 range. Can I build a 6th order for 16-20hz low & 30-34hz high ? Wonder if to big for truck of car? 40"x18"x 24" is about as big as I can go. Thanks brother
Awesome vid! Cleared up a few misconceptions fur me. But I really want to know more about passive radiator xes, how do u determine size of radiators, how many radiators and size of box vs free respiratory nose. Since they are small boxes, I imagine many times we have wiggle room to make a box bigger, how does that affect response/output?
22hz from a 65 ltr (2.3 cu ft) closure?!! Please reply w/make & model driver?! Dayton sell an 8 ohm 12” in their reference series that models to 21hz in a ported 4.6-4.7 cu ft closure though probably more efficient Isobaric* side note - how do I determine the correct PR? This* alignment requires half the closure size as appropriate for sealed or ported**. The same** requires the same diameter & length as a regular**. Does that mean the same size PR?
@@AudioJudgement I don't think you're wrong, it's a cell phone app. I have seen the same app read others higher, then again I went with 28"2 of port area. I have great depth but the numbers aren't there. I guess this is beauty of car audio. Build, test, repeat.
You can't measure SPL with a phone. Even specialized measurement microphones cap out at 130 dB. Some fancy ones can measure above 130 dB but not by much. You will need a sound pressure sensor to measure. Your setup probably exceeds 140 dB. Stop using your phone. You're better off judging the SPL using you ears.
@@AudioJudgement this makes me feel much better. After watching you do 127db on 256 watts, I was shattered. Thanks for the feedback. Thank you for the knowledge.
That sub that u choose for the demo is perfect for a sealed enclosure because the Qts is greater then 0.4 and smaller then 0.7! Otherwise this is a great video
You are absolutely right! And my next video will be about that : Which enclosure is best suited for my driver. But, then again, don't get hung up on these intervals. The extremes are always right. For example a Qts of 0.25 is definitely not good for infinite baffle and a Qts of 1.1 is very bad for a bass reflex. But numbers in the middle can work well with most enclosures. These intervals are guidelines, not strict rules.
Your videos are absolutely wonderful, I admire your effort and understanding of the physics involved. Bose had, as usual, an ingenious way of supplementing bass in a tiny enclosure. Dr Bose was a true goddamn genius, check out his MIT acoustics course free online. I hope it is still there. I can't imagine adding to the nasty honk the car is already giving you.. 😁. Annoying comment follows: After living with Quad 57s for over 40 years (I have been in the audio industry this long) almost every box sounds horrible. Best having no box at all. ProAc Response 4s were one of my favourite 'boxes' that spring to mind. Stanley Lipschitz is someone anyone interested in speakers and audio should be aware of if they share the view cabinets are a (un) necessary evil. He can elevate your understanding of speakers, boxes and drive units, filtering etc to somewhere well beyond the norm. Bose is the pragmatic, physics based genius. Not sure I like the sound of his speakers though.
Great video. Shame the testing was hampered by the opening to the car cabin area. Would it be worth testing indoors for a closer comparison now the ca test is done?
It would be nice to see a part 2 where you do the same test again with the same subwoofer in the same boxes now that the speaker has been fully broken in. I’ve heard 6th order enclosures and some 4th order types can come out of tune with the box after use. I understand it depends on the sub how long it takes to age and there are other variables, but it’s still a concern for me.
Indeed when the speaker is broken-in, the resonant frequency of the speaker goes down a bit. However, this speaker was playing in my car for years, before I did this comparison.
Apart from the consideration of being able to access the subwoofer, is there any difference which part of the subwoofer is in the sealed chamber of the 4th order?
It doesn't make any difference. Only thing you need to worry about is that you need to add the volume displaced by the magnet to the corresponding chamber.
@@AudioJudgement i did im still confused. that vid brought me here. i just feel like unless all the variable and constants and equations are labeled it becomes extremely hard to follow. i'll try watching it again. but i dont like using these online calculators and spreadsheets because the hide what is going on and i cant get a feel for how one this affects the other. I kinda understand that if you change one aspect of the design other parts will change in relation to it, but i need so see how the proportions relate to each other. Ill watch the other vid again.
@@-IE_it_yourself The equation is long and difficult to follow. With experience you will better understand the effect of each parameter. Right now, your best bet is to use the excel spreadsheet and play with each parameter and see how that affects the result.
@@AudioJudgement TBH i think ill make a test box one where i can add stuff inside to decrease the volume and change the port size. this is more an adventure in woodworking and hearing different types of speakers rather than creating something ideal. i already have a pair of Monitor Audio MA9, and they unfortunately sound great, so i doubt i will ever get to that point. Ill try and get back to you when i can come up with a proper question. thanks for the reply. and i look forward to checking out your online courses too.
VERY HELPFUL DATA - THANK YOU - but I'm having trouble understanding the 'In Car' frequency response, because there does not seem to be any Cabin Gain... In fact, there seems to be a 'cabin loss', because the frequency response of the 'flat' curve ported version falls as said frequency gets lower... O.O But I may have an idea as to the cause... When modelling a subwoofer, the Transfer Function Magnitude Graph doesn't give you all the facts - at least not as much as the SPL Graph, which shows you the theoretical output of the sub, whilst catering to the MAXIMUM EXCURSION of the driver... With that in mind, if the xmax is reached at a relatively high frequency - say 45Hz in regards to the ported version - then the projected 'flat' response will fall short\decline as the frequencies being played get lower, & either the amp runs out of the power needed to maintain the same volume with those frequencies(I know that's not the case - just saying), or, the sub's ability to play any louder diminishes as it's xmax is exceeded... >.> So which is it? Why is there no indication of cabin gain? & why isn't there a bump in the response curve at the car's resonance frequency with all enclosure versions? O.O
How would you capture that in a UA-cam video? Would require one helluva microphone and also your own setup would have to accommodate it. When then, compression would likely remove any accuracy or noticeable difference.
@@inkmonster0u812 The transmission line and horn are more efficient and more bass effective enclosures. ua-cam.com/video/aV1wSLTrX4g/v-deo.html This may explain abit more.... Try to build and when you hear the difference you understand this by your ears....
@@igor2030ign Thank you for linking these videos. I just finished watching both of them. For me it's a perfect example of "you don't know what you've been looking for until you've found it." I'm really interested in learning about more efficient builds, and horn style builds is something that just hadn't caught my attention yet. I've seen HexiBase talk about them before, but so far 6th order and 8th order enclosures are all that really stood out to me more before now. THIS is cool.
@@igor2030ign Just so you know, I've been hooked on watching MBEnclosures videos ever since you linked his videos above. Haha. Dude knows his stuff about box building for sure.
I’m trying to understand your statement about placement of passive radiators in relation to the driver. Kicker and other companies have been making ‘truck boxes’ with the driver and PR on the same surface for many years. Theirs seem to work just fine set up this way.
It doesn’t matter where you place it if you have one PR. But if you have 2, it’s best the place them on opposite panels. The active speaker can be wherever.
Don't forget to factor Le into the response graphs, and reducing port volume increases enclosure net volume, which is something that has to be factored to tweak tuning by modding the ports on already built enclosures. It's also worth noting that horns cause horn resonance. Also the parameters of a driver will control it's ability to play below fs, and ebp will determine which enclosure type is needed for the flattest amplitude in bandwidth.
Yeah, well, these are subwoofers so I don't particularly care about Le effect. You can see on the measured responses, at the end, that the graphs are up until 135 Hz and there is no roll-off happening. What happens to the frequencies above that point doesn't really concerns this test.
As a drummer I am, I think the 4th and 6th order boxes are not for me, because I like to hear all the frecuencies of music, you know, I like to feel the deep sound of the 20 herz that the bass drum produces. What do you think?
Okay, Jesus F J, I am not a scientist but I heard some people said (or may be from what I had read in the past) that most people cannot hear the low-end of frequency range like near 20 Hz, but they can feel the vibrations, with their skin or their body. Moreover, most people can enjoy the base as low as 30 Hz and above, so most likely they will enjoy between 30 Hz to 50 Hz, and that most woofers can produce those frequencies very efficiently.
@@pvosoccer1585 thanks. Is the 6th order box able to reproduce the 20 Hz better than the ported box? If it is so, I would like to make one 6th order box for my Dbxi 15 Wich has a free air resonance of 20 hz. O just tell me please if the 6th order is good for jazz music, I think we are talking about the best SQ box, but let tell you that I am not fan of the sealed boxes.
I'm a drummer too and trust me the number one enclosure for feeling the impact and keeping up with the notes properly is a horn 3rd order. It's just a sealed compartment that fires into a horn structure that gradually expands into the listening area.
Mostly yes. And tune it to a higher frequency, so the peak is even larger. It will play a narrow band of frequencies very loud, but you will miss the rest of the frequencies. Good for high spl, very bad for music listening.
Hi. Great experiment. I have an 43L enclosure but driver I have ask for optimum volumes of 55L sealed and 161L vented. The resonant frequency of the driver in 24hz. What’s my best option if I use that speaker in that enclosure? Can I just make a port tuned to lets say 28hz and get decent results even when not optimal or what? Thanks.
I haven’t understod WINisd entirely. Is a ported box of lets say 16Liters , is that WITH the port or Without the port? So one and the external volume of the port on top of the 16L? Thank you
@@AudioJudgement perfect:) as I suspected. Just that some calculations needs a yard long port and similar so that got me thinking… will give it a try tomorrow! Thank you for the quick answer!
@@AudioJudgement i built a vented box today since the db was way higher than the 4 bandpass box as WinISD showed. Otherwise the bandpass had its own rolloff in frequenzy so one didn’t a filter. In theory…
Great work thank you for your video....I would like to hear your opinion on which box sounded best in your vehicle and which you would run with in your personal situation?
Depends on what you are after. To me the sealed box sounded best. If you are a basshead the 6th order BP sounded loud but still linear in its playable range.
@@AudioJudgement Just curious, but how do you upscale the volume of an enclosure when making a 6th order bandpass? Is there a calculation adjustment that specifies "what the difference between a 4th and 6th order should be"? If the Vas of a sub was, for example, 25.50 L, what would then be the "ideal" enclosure size for a 6th order? Furthermore, what dictates or specifies where to put a baffle in a 6th order? I've seen them anything from nearly a 1:1 to a 3:1 ratio...
@@RAW_Reality There is no such thing as volume ratios when it comes to BP4 and BP6 enclosures. This is probably something invented on some forum a long time ago, and passed on. To calculate the volumes you use a modeling software, like WinISD, input the speaker parameters and adjust the box parameters until you find a satisfactory response. The resulting volumes don’t follow any ratio.
Wow, the amount of effort to model and then build all these enclosures is phenomenal. You did an excellent job of both. I have always wondered what the differences would be in real life and not just computer software modeling, now I know. Thank you VERY MUCH for your effort and time and $$$$$$ spent on this educational exercise. The Best video on this subject by far!
Great video! This is the first time I’ve actually seen someone model, build, and measure so many different enclosures. I’d love to see how a t-line compares!
Tttttttt lllliiinnnneeee .. Oh man .. I cant find nothing on youtube r any .. Thing than. Theory I swear . but i bet it sounds so dope
There are a few videos. My own experiences with TLines were favorable. Put a 15” Skar VVX in one. That enclosure was somewhere around the +10 cu ft mark. Very flat response but nowhere near the output of a ported design 1/3 its size. I prefer other designs in car audio but my computer speakers are TQWT that I built. I get compliments on them often.
@@TheLayinLo what is TQWT
At one point in my life I worked at wholesale car audio Warehouse. I had a ball playing with every single speaker, box, crossover, amplifier, head unit, Gadget that came into that place for the too years that I was there. It was a great learning experience, When I was ready to install my own system I knew exactly what I wanted made things a lot easier for me they would even let me borrow equipment and install it in my car. couldn't ask for anything more. Out of all the sales people that were there nobody really knew what was going on or was even into the equipment so when people would come into buy ,they would always come over to me.
So, what’s your go to setup for subs? Bouncing between building a 4th order setup or passive radiator with a 10 and 15” setup
Cool. Those must have been the good old days where you could get a job about having a link the amount of experience and credentials in a field. I put in an application at a local car audio and window tinting shop and they said they're looking for people with 3 years of experience. Like couldn't they just teach me? Is it that hard to teach somebody the ropes and pointers with car audio or is it just there being lazy? Because like yeah they might want somebody with 3 years of experience but if somebody has 3 years of experience then why aren't they currently doing car audio? It seems like they're just keeping the same amount of people in the trade or keeping the circle very small because I really believe I would excel at this type of work and I'm a quick learner and this is geared right toward how my mind works but when you walk into a shop to apply and they scoff at you when you tell them you don't have experience but you want to learn on the job then screw that type of arrogance. Like I just need the opportunity to learn in person and hands on because there's only so much you can really relate to and comprehend out of a UA-cam video.
Have any of you tryed the Earthquake Slap's passive radiator's? The 10s, and 12s Slap's unit's, have 4 inches= 100 mm of Total= Peak to peak X Max, and the 15 inch Slap's, has 4 and a half inches= 112.5 mm of Total X Max! Plus the Slap's unit's, are designed to perform best in the active/powered subwoofer's mfg. rec. sealed enclosure size= not the ported size, like most people think. Also less cancellation will occur with the active driver(s), NOT on the same plane as the passive(s). The guy in this video did a great job, thank you very much, for taking the time, to do this video for us all❤️
Great explanation!
Mostly confirmed what I thought I already knew, the thing I came to realize from this presentation is that I've never appreciated passive radiators enough.
I've been building and installing car audio systems since the late 80s until the early 2000's (before I had to get a real job lol), and I was mainly trained by Orion and Pioneer (not a big pioneer fan, but boy, is their technical training ever good!) and to a lesser extent by the other companies that the various stores I worked for carried like MTX, Sony, SAS, Coustic, Eclipse, Nakamichi, Dennon, Clarion, etc. etc. etc...
I even owned my own upholstery and car audio shop for a few years (super fun, but didn't make much money at it, turns out you cant charge for the full 37 hours you have into a pair of super custom, factory looking, leather wrapped Audi door pods that fit three 6" speakers and tweeters each).
I understood that there were those vehicles out there that allowed you to have enclosure choices, that you needed the driver's TS parameters to calculate and design the optimal enclosure for that driver.
My reality was that 99% of my customers wanted to put 10's and 12's (even 15's and 18's) behind and under seats where they would physically fit but there was nowhere near enough air space.
So my reality was that I was almost always building enclosures for the vehicle not the driver. I mean, I really tried to get as much airspace as I could possibly get, I often used fibreglass bottoms and backs on my enclosures to conform as tightly as possible to the curvatures of the vehicle.
There was some really impressive bass from small spaces and it was tight and clean and those customers rarely blew their subs and were usually pretty happy.
When you sell and install the same gear over and over, you get a really good sense of what it should or can sound like in an optimal enclosure vs a small sealed enclosure. I always knew the sub woofers were limited by their small sealed airspace but that was the sacrifice that had to be made.
Now that I understand passive radiators more, I really regret not having used them years ago in those small sealed enclosures that severely limited their sub woofers.
My systems could have been so much better... So much better...
that was of the greatest comparsion in the last decade. big thank you
Very very scientific. I can also appreciate the effort, preparation, hours and expenses that would've gone into creating this video. Kudos
Great video!
Absolutely love the attention to detail and time taken to explain every aspect of the tests - A+
In the old days hanging your amps upside down caused them to run hot! I was taught that any position except upside down was ok. You spent a lot of time here,good job.
Man head down .Best video on this topic
Great information! Very concise and well thought out. Love it when people can model AND build AND be extremely well spoken. Keep up the good work my friend!
What I've been looking for many years has been explained in this video very explicitly.Great Job Marcus.Looking for more loudspeaker/enclosure related videos
I've just recently come across your channel and I must say it is awesome. Thanks for making these great, informative videos. The amount of time you put into the videos is incredible! I have two comments on the video. First is that most people tune their ported boxes higher. 22.5 is crazy low for car audio. I know you were going for the flat response, but most people would tune in the 28-34 range in favor of output. Second thing is that these boxes all have different group delay so they will sound different. Output and box size isn't the whole story IMO.
Super! Ai explicat foarte bine diferențele dintre respectivele tipuri de boxe. Foarte folositoare lecția!
Wow! best enclosure video on youtube. You got my subscribe.
From all boxes, passive radiator is most satisfying. Its small efficient and have a nice low end and SQ. Really impressed!
Great video, just note that not only does the passive radiator allow for a smaller box, but it also eliminates chuffing if you have a large xmax.
I have a 10" subwoofer that I built a box for, about 1.13 ft³, and it sounded great and everything but decided to build a ported box, about 1.58 ft³, and I used a flared 3" port tuned to about 37Hz, and MAN what a difference that made in volume! I was able to maintain great sound quality in terms of listening to metal music and I get even lower lows, super happy with it!
Fantastic video! You actually explained many concepts that I've been struggling to understand for a while now. Very nice presentation and editing as well. I appreciate the little bits of humor here and there also. You just got a new sub (scriber, not woofer, lol) from this video. ;)
I’ve been a huge fan of Audio Judgement, your website and blog, and have learned so much there. I’m really glad to see you with a UA-cam channel. Much love and respect from a huge fan and colleague.
That was fun and informative, I've never seen all those different boxes or had them explained very carefully. Thanks
What a great video, editing, time spent and all the work with the boxes! Helpful and informative!!
Great job testing and providing so much data, this is really helpful for over-analytical types like us to come to decisions.
Wow, I dont think most people understand the amount of work and knowledge you put into making that video. Great comparison and awsome editing.
To the "know it all commenters".....make your own video.
This video is enclosure heaven! 🙏 Very informative, pleasure to watch 👏
Very detailed explanation. Answered most of my questions..
Ive been looking so hard for some info/comparisons like this for a while! thanks a heap, epic work!
this is the comparison video i looking for. glad u explained it all in here. thanks
awesome. for the next video, cover 5th, 7th, and 8th order boxes to see what was missed. I remember an audio shop in TX where the owner made and sold (single) 10" 5th order boxes that he made along side all of the other home audio gear. He didn't do the installing, he just sold the raw 5th order box with and w/o the driver...
Hi, this is awesome !!!! waiting for new course, it has been very long since last 201.
THANKS FOR EXPLAINING ISOBARIK SPEAKERS AND DECIDING HOW TO ASCERTAIN SPEAKER BOX CONFIGURATIONS !
way back in 1999, i had 1 12" pheonix gold xmax in a 1cubic foot sealed box running off a 400watt mtx amp, mtx crossover and a kenwood excelon head unit and that 1 sub absolutely hammered, i mean i could be heard over 1/4 mile away across a field according to my friends, it was sick!
very interesting video, i didn't even know about bandpass enclosures. your explanations are very clear and easy to understand
That's awesome man you put a lot of time into that it's appreciated
Awesome video! I've watched all your courses on Udemy you've helped me a lot :)
Cheers from Texas!
🤘😎🤘
Thank you for doing this. My son and I have always been interested in cabinet design.
Fascinating!
All the best
M
so far i think im either going to go for a full size sealed, or a passive small, i dont like messing with ports because i seem to always mess up ports.
Thanks for information.
how would be in transmission line enclosure??
Excellent job on this video! Info was presented perfectly!
How would a transmission line (T-line) box fit in to all this. Its main goal is to have a wide frequency band like a sealed enclosure, but with higher output due to being a ported enclosure
I don’t think you would see a higher output. That’s just based on my personal experience with them. You can achieve a very wide and frequency band that is very linear. If it was built properly and stuffed and remeasured and adjusted until optimal, I think you’d see response that is similar but more favorable to the sealed box. BUT the enclosure would be larger.
@@TheLayinLo Yes, that would make sense, as you need a lot of space to make up the line.
So, for small spaces, sealed or passive radiators is the better option
Sounds like you need a third order horn enclosure like they use at concerts there's nothing like it.
wow wow wow.. Truly awesome work!! Great explanation. I hope you get a lot more views and can share this knowledge because it will help many people. Awesome 👍🏼 Thank you!!
well remember the cabin gains, that is almost the exact gains added to the 4th order. I was hoping you would catch that. Overlaying the car gain and the 4th order.
I really want to learn more about passive radiators.. It just seems like there is a huge lack of knowledge about them except for the super top secret labs of major audio brands. How do you tune them? What size do you need? What does the suspension compliance do? Can you just tack some radiators on to the side of an already built sealed box?
passive radiator does a great job as opposed to using a port if you have the room it does an amazing job although a lot of people just add another woofer as opposed to a passive radiator when it comes to a car I had some home speakers that look like they had two 10-in woofers in each box until one of them blew when I took them apart to repair that's when I found out that it had one 10-in woofer and one passive that speaker had tremendous sound coming out of it considering it was only one 10-in woofer thing sounded great and it was an off-brand piece of junk
Typically u need twice the surface area worth of PR as the active driver. You tune the PR by adding weight (steel washers) to the rear suspension section of the PR
@@Forcefed2002 Why do you need twice the surface area? I mean what would happen if you added let's say hypothetically, 2 12 inch PR's to a sealed box with 2 15's. Would the tuning be so far off that it would sound bad? would they just over extend? Can you compensate with extra weight?
@@trev6783 I don't know - it's just the most common alignment used when enlisting PR's. It's just how it's modeled for a satisfactory freq response curve.
i have a 10w6v3 its such an amazing speaker.
I need custom box like you have but need to be it smaller im looking at tops 8inch 600wrms or 6.5 400wrms i want loud and deep bass just for listening
would be interesting to see a `small` plugged ported box freq response and db. ive done some testing with different density plugs with good results. so a happy(?) medium of sealed and bassreflex
Awesome video and wonderful explanation !!!
incredible job, you deserve all the merits!
Greetings from Brazil
appreciated your work, you really work hard for this video.. great job sir
In terms of clarity, or accuracy, or transient responce or fast bass for instrumentals drum beats which enclosure is better ??? Sealed is popular opinion and then bass reflex, and then remaining designs. Hope this is right ??
8:29. How? Every single port calculator says that the wider the port, the longer it has to be as well.
I'm talking about the box size, not the port diameter. If the box get's smaller and the port diameter stays the same, then you need a longer port to maintain the tuning frequency.
good effort,appreciate your time and knowledge.
This is an awesome video...THANKS MAN!!
1.)What is it about 6th order
enclosure box design that
everyone says the formulas
are prone to error?
2.) What does the formula look
like?
3.) Where/how does this error
occur?
4.) How do you recalculate to fix
the error?
Thank you for your time.👋😄👍☮
It's not that there is an error in the formula. It's the fact that when you build the box, there will be differences. Either you have some small leakages that you are not aware. Maybe you are using flared ports and flare approximation in not accurate. There are a number of things that will make your finished box have a slight difference compared to the modeled box. And for a BP6 enclosure, small differences have a larger impact on the frequency response compared to a sealed or bass reflex box.
@@AudioJudgement Ahh, ok. Thank you very much. Any special box builds coming up? Maybe try one of those layered ones ?😁👍
Very interesting channel. Professionally and understandably presented information. Well done mate.👍🙂❤
Really great information, thank you!
Ola amigo que tan exacto es el winisd en un % de 0 a 100% cuanto le das gracias saludos desde Colombia
Nice video. Thanks for your efforts.
your video is very informative nd very interesting
Ports or passive radiators do not extend frequency response. Ports supply a” drone tone” at the tuning frequency. This means if I apply a 25 Hz test tone, the speaker will emit that frequency, but the port will emit the box tuning frequency. A microphone only measures pressure, so it adds the drone tone pressure of the “wrong frequency” with the speaker driver output of the correct frequency. The box is a helmholtz resonator.
I have exactly the same bmw 520d , mine is 2010 is that same ?, i have like 100% same, like its copyed and pasted
Amazing video. This is how you do it.
What about porting the ported enclosures through the "ski pass-through"? I'm trying to do something like this with my GS400, where the port would be located and fire directly under the 10" hole in the rear deck, where the factory subwoofer was removed, so that those soothing pressure waves can travel into the car. The sealed box I built sounds great when the trunk is open, and I'm standing behind the car, but not much bass makes it into the cabin space.
You know you can make the port stick out of the enclosure, right? We don't do that because it looks awkward, but in this case it's perfect. Also, if the port is not inside the box, the box can be smaller. Furthermore, I suggest a 4th order bandpass enclosure where you have just the port radiating sound.
I've always loved my bandpass box it really had a intense Thump in my suv.
And my subs at home are passive I get really crazy lows for movies.
I am throwing my sub in a ported box tomorrow in the suv as an experiment I know my mirrors are gonna shift like crazy...
I've always loved 4th order bandpass in the 90s and 2000s seem to make the sub hit lower and able to take more power from one sealed area
Excellent job bro
what if a dual active sub push pull sealed design ?
mutliple drivers ported ? / mutliple driver sealed ?/ mutliple drivers with bass radiator as thicc or larger surface and heavier cone ?
or basiclly made the same thing as this but with 2 or more active drivers ?
looking foward to see more about mutliple drivers n passive radiators
the more i learn, the more i dont want to invest any more into building boxes. too many variables and unaccounted engineering to spoil the party. good thing space is always my leading constraint. GREAT video and presentation!
Im about to do a bandpass on a hcca 12 dont think its the best box for it but the builder said it would be best 😅idk
I'm really learning. Thanks a bunch Got Morel Ultimo SC 12" inch sub 10hz-900 range. Can I build a 6th order for 16-20hz low & 30-34hz high ? Wonder if to big for truck of car? 40"x18"x 24" is about as big as I can go. Thanks brother
Awesome vid! Cleared up a few misconceptions fur me. But I really want to know more about passive radiator xes, how do u determine size of radiators, how many radiators and size of box vs free respiratory nose. Since they are small boxes, I imagine many times we have wiggle room to make a box bigger, how does that affect response/output?
You just use a modeling software, like WinISD. Change the parameters you mentioned and see how that affects the response.
@@AudioJudgement Lol, already on it!
22hz from a 65 ltr (2.3 cu ft) closure?!! Please reply w/make & model driver?!
Dayton sell an 8 ohm 12” in their reference series that models to 21hz in a ported 4.6-4.7 cu ft closure though probably more efficient
Isobaric* side note - how do I determine the correct PR? This* alignment requires half the closure size as appropriate for sealed or ported**. The same** requires the same diameter & length as a regular**.
Does that mean the same size PR?
I'm running 1100watts through two 12's and can't pass 116... back to the drawing board.
Great video and info!!
my guess is that you're measurement equipment might be faulty. 116 dB can be reached with almost any subwoofer, let alone 2x12 with 1kw of power.
@@AudioJudgement I don't think you're wrong, it's a cell phone app. I have seen the same app read others higher, then again I went with 28"2 of port area. I have great depth but the numbers aren't there. I guess this is beauty of car audio. Build, test, repeat.
You can't measure SPL with a phone. Even specialized measurement microphones cap out at 130 dB. Some fancy ones can measure above 130 dB but not by much. You will need a sound pressure sensor to measure. Your setup probably exceeds 140 dB. Stop using your phone. You're better off judging the SPL using you ears.
@@AudioJudgement this makes me feel much better. After watching you do 127db on 256 watts, I was shattered.
Thanks for the feedback. Thank you for the knowledge.
That sub that u choose for the demo is perfect for a sealed enclosure because the Qts is greater then 0.4 and smaller then 0.7!
Otherwise this is a great video
You are absolutely right! And my next video will be about that : Which enclosure is best suited for my driver. But, then again, don't get hung up on these intervals. The extremes are always right. For example a Qts of 0.25 is definitely not good for infinite baffle and a Qts of 1.1 is very bad for a bass reflex. But numbers in the middle can work well with most enclosures. These intervals are guidelines, not strict rules.
Your videos are absolutely wonderful, I admire your effort and understanding of the physics involved.
Bose had, as usual, an ingenious way of supplementing bass in a tiny enclosure. Dr Bose was a true goddamn genius, check out his MIT acoustics course free online. I hope it is still there.
I can't imagine adding to the nasty honk the car is already giving you.. 😁.
Annoying comment follows:
After living with Quad 57s for over 40 years (I have been in the audio industry this long) almost every box sounds horrible. Best having no box at all. ProAc Response 4s were one of my favourite 'boxes' that spring to mind.
Stanley Lipschitz is someone anyone interested in speakers and audio should be aware of if they share the view cabinets are a (un) necessary evil. He can elevate your understanding of speakers, boxes and drive units, filtering etc to somewhere well beyond the norm. Bose is the pragmatic, physics based genius. Not sure I like the sound of his speakers though.
Great video. Shame the testing was hampered by the opening to the car cabin area. Would it be worth testing indoors for a closer comparison now the ca test is done?
Foarte interesant clipul :)
It would be nice to see a part 2 where you do the same test again with the same subwoofer in the same boxes now that the speaker has been fully broken in. I’ve heard 6th order enclosures and some 4th order types can come out of tune with the box after use. I understand it depends on the sub how long it takes to age and there are other variables, but it’s still a concern for me.
Indeed when the speaker is broken-in, the resonant frequency of the speaker goes down a bit. However, this speaker was playing in my car for years, before I did this comparison.
What about port area that makes a difference a low tuned small port won't be loud
Apart from the consideration of being able to access the subwoofer, is there any difference which part of the subwoofer is in the sealed chamber of the 4th order?
It doesn't make any difference. Only thing you need to worry about is that you need to add the volume displaced by the magnet to the corresponding chamber.
how do you "choose" a tuning frequency. i choose a tuning of 30hz, but how do i achieve that?
I have a video on how to design a ported subwoofer box. You can check that out
@@AudioJudgement i did im still confused. that vid brought me here. i just feel like unless all the variable and constants and equations are labeled it becomes extremely hard to follow. i'll try watching it again. but i dont like using these online calculators and spreadsheets because the hide what is going on and i cant get a feel for how one this affects the other.
I kinda understand that if you change one aspect of the design other parts will change in relation to it, but i need so see how the proportions relate to each other.
Ill watch the other vid again.
@@-IE_it_yourself The equation is long and difficult to follow. With experience you will better understand the effect of each parameter. Right now, your best bet is to use the excel spreadsheet and play with each parameter and see how that affects the result.
@@AudioJudgement TBH i think ill make a test box one where i can add stuff inside to decrease the volume and change the port size. this is more an adventure in woodworking and hearing different types of speakers rather than creating something ideal. i already have a pair of Monitor Audio MA9, and they unfortunately sound great, so i doubt i will ever get to that point.
Ill try and get back to you when i can come up with a proper question. thanks for the reply. and i look forward to checking out your online courses too.
Great video!!!! Thank you a lot!!
How many ampifire you use
2 amps: I got a mono channel for the subwoofer and 4 channel for the front speakers. I don't use rear speakers.
VERY HELPFUL DATA - THANK YOU - but I'm having trouble understanding the 'In Car' frequency response, because there does not seem to be any Cabin Gain... In fact, there seems to be a 'cabin loss', because the frequency response of the 'flat' curve ported version falls as said frequency gets lower... O.O But I may have an idea as to the cause... When modelling a subwoofer, the Transfer Function Magnitude Graph doesn't give you all the facts - at least not as much as the SPL Graph, which shows you the theoretical output of the sub, whilst catering to the MAXIMUM EXCURSION of the driver... With that in mind, if the xmax is reached at a relatively high frequency - say 45Hz in regards to the ported version - then the projected 'flat' response will fall short\decline as the frequencies being played get lower, & either the amp runs out of the power needed to maintain the same volume with those frequencies(I know that's not the case - just saying), or, the sub's ability to play any louder diminishes as it's xmax is exceeded... >.> So which is it? Why is there no indication of cabin gain? & why isn't there a bump in the response curve at the car's resonance frequency with all enclosure versions? O.O
So what’s the best box
Great explanation, it would be great if you include the sound of each enclosure so we can hear the difference
How would you capture that in a UA-cam video? Would require one helluva microphone and also your own setup would have to accommodate it. When then, compression would likely remove any accuracy or noticeable difference.
Thanks for a great video
which type of enclosure is best for deep bass
please tell me ported ,band pass or passive radiator
does passive radiators are better for deep bass??
With a good driver, any of the 3 enclosures can reach deep bass. In most cases bass reflex is the way to go.
Nice work. Very appreciated. Fyi: TL sub and rear, front loaded horn or folded horn will easy kill all this kind of enclosures!
Site to explain? Not sure what you mean. I.m building a box for a single 18 in evl. 2 om.
@@inkmonster0u812 The transmission line and horn are more efficient and more bass effective enclosures.
ua-cam.com/video/aV1wSLTrX4g/v-deo.html
This may explain abit more.... Try to build and when you hear the difference you understand this by your ears....
ua-cam.com/video/KCZ9ZYqAS6U/v-deo.html
@@igor2030ign Thank you for linking these videos. I just finished watching both of them. For me it's a perfect example of "you don't know what you've been looking for until you've found it." I'm really interested in learning about more efficient builds, and horn style builds is something that just hadn't caught my attention yet. I've seen HexiBase talk about them before, but so far 6th order and 8th order enclosures are all that really stood out to me more before now. THIS is cool.
@@igor2030ign Just so you know, I've been hooked on watching MBEnclosures videos ever since you linked his videos above. Haha. Dude knows his stuff about box building for sure.
Salut,Cum pot sa iau legatura cu tine? Am nevoie de un proiect pentru o cutie , contra cost normal
Salutare! Din pacate nu ofer astfel de servicii
I’m trying to understand your statement about placement of passive radiators in relation to the driver. Kicker and other companies have been making ‘truck boxes’ with the driver and PR on the same surface for many years. Theirs seem to work just fine set up this way.
It doesn’t matter where you place it if you have one PR. But if you have 2, it’s best the place them on opposite panels. The active speaker can be wherever.
Ok, what about actual music listening? How does your 6th order bandpass sound compared to other boxes?
Don't forget to factor Le into the response graphs, and reducing port volume increases enclosure net volume, which is something that has to be factored to tweak tuning by modding the ports on already built enclosures. It's also worth noting that horns cause horn resonance. Also the parameters of a driver will control it's ability to play below fs, and ebp will determine which enclosure type is needed for the flattest amplitude in bandwidth.
Yeah, well, these are subwoofers so I don't particularly care about Le effect. You can see on the measured responses, at the end, that the graphs are up until 135 Hz and there is no roll-off happening. What happens to the frequencies above that point doesn't really concerns this test.
As a drummer I am, I think the 4th and 6th order boxes are not for me, because I like to hear all the frecuencies of music, you know, I like to feel the deep sound of the 20 herz that the bass drum produces.
What do you think?
Okay, Jesus F J, I am not a scientist but I heard some people said (or may be from what I had read in the past) that most people cannot hear the low-end of frequency range like near 20 Hz, but they can feel the vibrations, with their skin or their body. Moreover, most people can enjoy the base as low as 30 Hz and above, so most likely they will enjoy between 30 Hz to 50 Hz, and that most woofers can produce those frequencies very efficiently.
@@pvosoccer1585 thanks. Is the 6th order box able to reproduce the 20 Hz better than the ported box? If it is so, I would like to make one 6th order box for my Dbxi 15 Wich has a free air resonance of 20 hz.
O just tell me please if the 6th order is good for jazz music, I think we are talking about the best SQ box, but let tell you that I am not fan of the sealed boxes.
your bass drum is not making 20hz lol
I'm a drummer too and trust me the number one enclosure for feeling the impact and keeping up with the notes properly is a horn 3rd order. It's just a sealed compartment that fires into a horn structure that gradually expands into the listening area.
Very nice and funny presentation, thanks! :)
what constitute a high output bass reflex. is it as simple as building a larger box
Mostly yes. And tune it to a higher frequency, so the peak is even larger. It will play a narrow band of frequencies very loud, but you will miss the rest of the frequencies. Good for high spl, very bad for music listening.
Hi. Great experiment. I have an 43L enclosure but driver I have ask for optimum volumes of 55L sealed and 161L vented. The resonant frequency of the driver in 24hz. What’s my best option if I use that speaker in that enclosure? Can I just make a port tuned to lets say 28hz and get decent results even when not optimal or what? Thanks.
excellent video !
great video. what softwear do you use to design subwoofer boxes ?
I like using WinISD. It's free and it has all that you could ask for.
@@AudioJudgement awesome and thank you for the quick reply.
I haven’t understod WINisd entirely.
Is a ported box of lets say 16Liters , is that WITH the port or Without the port?
So one and the external volume of the port on top of the 16L? Thank you
That’s the net volume. You have to make the box bigger to account for anything that goes inside the box: port, speaker, bracing etc
@@AudioJudgement perfect:) as I suspected. Just that some calculations needs a yard long port and similar so that got me thinking… will give it a try tomorrow! Thank you for the quick answer!
@@AudioJudgement i built a vented box today since the db was way higher than the 4 bandpass box as WinISD showed. Otherwise the bandpass had its own rolloff in frequenzy so one didn’t a filter. In theory…
We need more videos on this
Great work thank you for your video....I would like to hear your opinion on which box sounded best in your vehicle and which you would run with in your personal situation?
Depends on what you are after. To me the sealed box sounded best. If you are a basshead the 6th order BP sounded loud but still linear in its playable range.
@@AudioJudgement Just curious, but how do you upscale the volume of an enclosure when making a 6th order bandpass? Is there a calculation adjustment that specifies "what the difference between a 4th and 6th order should be"? If the Vas of a sub was, for example, 25.50 L, what would then be the "ideal" enclosure size for a 6th order?
Furthermore, what dictates or specifies where to put a baffle in a 6th order? I've seen them anything from nearly a 1:1 to a 3:1 ratio...
@@RAW_Reality There is no such thing as volume ratios when it comes to BP4 and BP6 enclosures. This is probably something invented on some forum a long time ago, and passed on. To calculate the volumes you use a modeling software, like WinISD, input the speaker parameters and adjust the box parameters until you find a satisfactory response. The resulting volumes don’t follow any ratio.
@@AudioJudgement Thanks for the input, and good to know. 👍