Data Driven Fret Leveling Process
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- Data Driven Fret Process.
Please keep in mind, I use a CNC to machine the neck, the conical radius fretboard and the fret slots. I don't require a full fret level. My frets after installation are already level to each other. My "high" spots are actually not that high. They are microns high. I'm not taking off much material. This method is no different that spot leveling an already leveled board.
I also do a final check with the rocker during the polishing stage. If I detect any tiny rocking, I remove it with the Dremel and cutting polish. That is how tiny the "high" spots are, they can be removed with polishing compound.
Color high frets Red, color non-high frets black.
Step 1. Spot level the red frets.
Step 2. Re-check with the rocker on the adjacent frets. The black frets are either low or correct. Adjust the As-Is color coding and spot level the black frets if necessary.
Step 3. Continue down the board spot leveling.
Step 4. Crown only the portions that were spot leveled.
Step 5. Re-check with the rocker
Step 6. Polish with Dremel. Remove any minor rocking with the Dremel.
Step 7 Liquid polish.
00:00 - Star Trek, time travel, invasive procedures, there has to be a better way
4:36 - Fret installation
9:43 - Data Driven Fret Leveling explanation
15:50 - Fret tolerances theory
17:29 - Grinding, crowning, sanding, polishing
19:19 - Tools and polishing explanation
22:59 - Final polish and reveal under magnification
25:11 - Outro
Thanks for watching. Take it easy.
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A lot of times you can tap down the fret with a fret hammer as well. This is usually the first thing I attempt before doing a complete leveling.
It's all I do. Unless forced to do otherwise.
If your fret rocker actually rocks when placed over three frets, is the middle fret too high, or is one of the outer frets too low? Both situations will produce the same 'rocking' condition. If you then reduce the height of the middle fret, and the problem was actually with one of the outer frets being too low, then you could be introducing a slight 'wave' of height variation as you move along the fretboard: not good when you are fretting the strings in different positions! Yes, I know that string tension will tend to pull a slight amount of relief into the neck, but for accurate, consistent fret heights, they must all have their tops originally in a straight line. After making sure that the fretboard is as straight as possible using the truss rod and a slotted straight edge, and marking ALL of the fret tops in the accepted way, a very light pass with a levelling beam which has 400 grit sandpaper will quickly show the condition of all of the frets: if only a few frets (or parts of frets) have their tops cleaned by the sandpaper, then these are obviously the high ones, which can quickly be reduced to the correct height. If only a few frets are left untouched, then these are the lowest ones: all of the other frets then need to be reduced in height. Either way, when you are finished with the levelling beam, you can then be sure that all of the fret tops are in line, without the risk of introducing the 'wave' height problem which seems to be a real risk when using your method.
I'm with you on this. If you think the frets are level and don't want to over-sand anything, start with1000 with all the frets marker'ed. If the frets are right, you'll unmark them all at the same time, equally. Confirmation that you're good and at worst, you just polished your frets a little. If it isn't level, well, then you know what to do.
Agreed, good points. Considering how many frets needed leveling, he should have just used a beam to begin with. And then did spot leveling if needed afterward.
Agreed. Ironically, thinking you can level a fretboard in groups of 3 up and down the board - if done systematically and repeatedly (because you are changing adjacent readings each time you lower a fret) can take the same amount of time as judiciously using a long beam in the first place. Of course that will never happen because in the end you can simply raise the string height to avoid all the pockets of varying fret height.
Very cool ideas and beautiful work!
Buffing wheel on the dremel is much easier and more consistent than the cone shape. Flitz is the only compound I use. It’s my last step after fine sandpapers. The wheel conforms to the fret shape and polishes the whole thing. One pass each direction and you’ve got a mirror finish.
I always start for leveling in the middle of the neck and then work towards either end that way I'm sure that the second fret isn't off when you do it starting at the second fret you're never really sure it's like laying a tile floor you want to make sure that everything's level at the highest point in the room
Just curious if one fret is higher than the others and you mark it, then precede down the neck using the fret rocker, won't the high fret cause an inaccurate read of the next fret?
I've been playing since 1988.. it's only been the last few years that I've actively been doing my own set-ups.. thanks for imparting your knowledge and skill! Loved the relaxing music too!
This was a breath of fresh air with your soft spoken delivery and the lack of guitar-based music! Kudos for not following the herd! Subscribed!
wasn't that a guitar synth?
What the hell is this? He's the Bob Ross of luthiers. Happy little frets!
Great info! Thank you! Your guitar frets put be like heaven to play.
Seems like worth a try. ..creative technique.thank you very much
excellent video all wood made for guitars has a mind of its own to stabilize fret arc height gives the player there tone/sound total enjoyed your passion and expertise thankyou for your time
This video is so great. Best overview of fret leveling I've found, with careful explanation and mentioning ALL THE GRITS IN ORDER. Thanks!
Thanks for the awesome comment. And thanks for watching.
That fret rocker rocking in that position could also indicate the 2nd fret being lower. If the 2nd fret was too low, the fret rocker wouldn't detect that in the first checking position. If the 3rd and 4th frets were correct, the fret rocker would still rock the same way as in the video.
So what would you do if you needed to grind down neighboring frets? Wouldn't that change the whole, overall reading all the way down after the neighboring frets?
Great video man! i was thinking the same idea, thanks and keep up the good work.
I DON'T LEVEL FRETS(proceeds to level frets). Glad I read comments before I wasted 25 minutes of my life.
So, you level frets with a fret kisser? Oops. **Spoiler alert** He levels frets with abrasive. Same as anyone else. He's doing nothing special in the slightest. And if the negative comments are irksome - don't drag people here with the 'I don't level frets tagline' and then babble on about Star Trek and proceed to level frets with sanding. People feel cheated and won't ever come back. There's meant to be a level of trust between viewer and creator. I came here excited to see a new guy working new methods and had my time wasted, left with a bad taste and won't be back. I was a definite potential new subscriber and repeat viewer. That being said, your final board was very nice and I like the inlay work. I just won't return is all and that will be typical of a lot of viewers I imagine.
Way too serious and too much misery....lighten up.
Haha! Nice! Can't beat them hog knuckles. But, I slightly edited, deleted and reposted a comment made on the same viewing due to UA-cam not letting me edit and post it, for some reason. Also, there was some absolute weapon babbling like a lunatic in the replies, so it was a win/win. And you leave little Billy out of this! Also, I clearly meant I won't be back as a channel viewer and subscriber. It's this type of logic that my son exhibited that made me abandon young Billy in the first place. :) @@BryanClark-gk6ie
@@matthewstephens6848LOL!
This video sucks. I'm tapping out 7 minutes in.
Cry babies to the right please --->
Good info. I always look for different more wise ways to do my thing. I was just doing black where I saw it was high.
Basically spot leveling. I did this on my current build. Fret rocker and red Sharpie for the high spots. You have to take special care that leveling a fret doesn't make an adjacent fret high by comparison.
I'd normally be mad at this level of clickbait, but the inlays in that fretboard are so cool I couldn't click away.
I laughed out loud at the time travel stuff box. Good luck on your journey.
Thanks Matt. The box was my nod to Rick and Morty.
Fret leveling asmr…brilliant!
Thanks for posting, smart solution!
The background music and low voiceover made me feel like I was working on guitars and on a mission to some moon orbiting Jupiter. I will buy the Fret Kisser because of this video. Thanks bud. Nice teaching and coaching.
Wow. I am deeply researching this topic. Your vid was awesome thankyou. Imagine trying to get this info 25 years ago.
The more I watch fret work vids the more I'm convinced that I'll certainly f up with such a task
You won't. Leveling frets is not hard nor is crowning them with the right tools. Don't let all this technical mumbo-jumbo doubt yourself.
I do that in the same way!!! I even mark the tape as you do LOL. I didn´t know about the fret kisser though, that will make my life way easier. Thanks for the video!!!
I do all my refrets exactly the same , the best way to do it !
I can see this being a benefit for stainless steel frets because the sanding marks are so hard to polish out.
Agreed! Does not make sense to grind down new frets. Makes me cringe just thinking about it. Thanks so much for this info!
interesting technique, i will give it a try since one of the selling points of Jescar SS wire is to potentially have a very long lived initial setup and possibly never needing a refret. It doesn't make sense to erode your wire material thickness from day 1. Do you check level with a beam as the last step? From an engineering standpoint, it would seem if you use only a rocker over a few frets that you could have a compounding error once you get 12 os so frets away?
Totally agree with your method! I did my first fretboard by sanding the whole fretboard and thought there had to be a better way. My next one I came up with the same process as you. It’s easier, quicker, and 90% of the frets remain untouched and full height.
This guy had us valved off waiting to release for 14 whole minutes before revealing the dirty deep secret - the fret kisser... lol nice.
really interesting vid, thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it
Same process I use and get amazing results
An additional factor that comes to mind regarding this process is that once a high fret has been lowered, it will then affect how adjacent frets may then rocker test with its neighbors.
Adjacent frets will likely test differently after an adjustment than before.
I wonder if it might be best to start at the bridge end of the neck and work towards the nut.
When a high fret is encountered, adjust it down to its proper height before moving onward, testing and adjusting as you go, one fret at a time until you get to the nut.
I've heard stories of people spot-leveling frets starting at the nut end of the neck and ending up with a nightmare of "chasing" high frets all the way down the fretboard, with each subsequent fret adjustment causing the next fret to then test high.
By starting at the bridge end of the neck, I would think that such a problem would be eliminated.
One may say that it shouldn't make any difference, but think of it this way as a player.
Which high frets give us trouble when playing?
The answer is the high frets that are towards the bridge from the location where we are attempting to fret.
Take care of those, then see what else may be problematic working back towards the nut.
The fact that the "fret kisser" can even be used with the guitar under string tension, not only so the results of an adjustment can be immediately tested, but also that the guitar is in its true "living conditions" while you work and test, is a big plus.
It may be easier for an experienced guitar tech to simply do a traditional leveling of the entire board, but for a guy like me who likes to work on my own guitars, but shies away from extensive fret work, I'm a fan of this spot-leveling method.
I've yet to actually attempt to do it, but I'm going to buy one of these Stewmac fret kissers and give it a try.
nice work
I like your leveling process, have you, or an owner of one of your guitars, ever had one of your necks scanned on the Plek to see how accurate your process is?
Hey.like your video . I am Amsata . I am the inventer of ftrekisser .i use it also like this. I use stainless frets and dont think also that You need to level all the frets,but i wanted i tool that wil level just the high spot, so made this tool and work with stewmac to make it.it started in 2013 and 2018 it was ready. Nice frets work
Never saw him make sure the fingerboard was level.
But he said he did
Nice to see I'm not the only one working on a time machine.
When you set the frets, use a clamping jig to make them all level before the glue sets.
How the fret bending machine is calibrated? Trial and error? Also using a bigger template with the radius maybe gives more precision than the small radius? Just questions...
Did 3 different electrics, two regular stainless, one jumbo stainless, did only marking on the masking tape with a similar fret rocker. Lots of iterations, great results. The most demanding is working the fret ends.
I love the soundtrack. It has some very Blade Runner era Vangelis parts.
You sir are a mad genius 👏
What about an attachment on a hydraulic-press that can press in all the frets evenly at the same time, for a fret leveling result?
Incredible incredible incredible
So you measured off a fret that needs leveling ? Why do you glue them in? I’m not aware of any manufacturer doing it. Do you clean matching oil off the fret tang before you Install to keep them from creeping out ? Do you level the board on a refret first ?
I like the approach and the rationale to it, now could it be better to do this under string tension, that changes significantly the geometry of the neck, especially around the fall away zone (e.g. typical issues around the 12 fret?) Then using something like a stewmac Fretbar understring Leveler partially taped in the center with abrasive and ordinary tape on the side ? kind of home made fret rocker
Thats the best fretwire out there by the way....the jescar super jumbo..i have installed it in all my guitars...its the biz....i find it funny that we still have guitars nowadays that go for thousands of dollars and still have that crapware puny nickel silver ones.....even my squier bullet wears it...instant high end neck when its all crowned and polished properly....very cool video by the way and nice approach to fret work....
I actually like your tip about adding the marker information to the tape, I generally use the butt end depth gauge of a micrometer towards the end of the crowning process along with the fret rocker to keep everything super consistent. As I can see how your method here is basically spot leveling, and would be just OK on new frets. An already played guitar that would possibly have string wear divets in the fret's up towards the cowboy chords generally, you'd want to take all the frets down to a certain level and need to recrown everything to get rid of those and keep everything level.... I won't even go into the price of the fret kisser, considering the same can be done with 2 tools you probably already own if doing any amount of fret leveling or fret maintenance.....
I use 6 inch precision flat ground stone, sold through metalwork outlets (normally used to dress milling machines etc).
Similar technique, felt pen on all the frets, careful use of the stone to take down high frets.
I'm sure the die/draw plate was not designed to push through a perfectly shaped fret.
Also rolling the fret radius will change the shape.
Therefore it's always a good idea to take a bit of the top (uniform). So you have a flat spot on the top of all the frets.
That is why you keep a thin black line on the top of the fret when shaping it.
What kind of tip do you have on your Dremel?
In a used guitar scenario I do everything I can to only file the top material I need to after doing my best to tap down high spots. Once I have quadruple-checked after filing my way up the fret board and I am satisfied I will do my crowning, fret end dressing, sanding and polishing the frets. So far I have had good luck and not experienced low spots but I did buy radius sanding blocks rather than my between string flat level sander just in case. I am very new at this and still trying to acquire decent tools ( little by little) so if you have any suggestions feel free to let me know! Thank you for this awesome video!
What kind of tools do you use to dress the stainless frets???
awesome, Thank you.
You're welcome!
Would it be posible to grind the frets using the CNC and then polish?
A metal radiused "block" the length of the fretboard. Place frets in slots and clamp block down on them. CA into the ends. No leveling needed afterwards.
if there are inconsistence's in the wire material and crown surface then no this will not work
@@T0tenkampf Just use a mallet thereafter on the uneven frets and it's like magic.
@@T0tenkampf Actually the opposite would be true. If the metal radiused block is stiff and clamped evenly, not allowed to bend, the frets will only be able to follow the block. It actually would allow the frets to have some variance and the fret board to not be flat.
Theoretically, all PLEK machine does is scanning the fretboard with a z-level indicator and then chipping away the excess metal. It's tolerance is 25 microns. Cheap CNC machine has tolerance of 50 microns, so basically if one can rewrite its z-axis algorithm to scan over the fret board it will do the exact same thing, you just need the one that can be programmed.
Could you send a link to the background music?? .. I've heard it somewhere before and couldn't find it online
Fantastic technique. I have done similar, fret rock and spot level, but your method is next level. Great work. One tool I think would fit your method is the Hosco UFO, check it out if you aren’t familiar with it. How do you like the wide fret press from the UK? When (or if) you do mono-scale guitars do you use it to an arbor press?
oh, was already doing this.
Nothing wrong with spot leveling as long as you make sure your neck is straight first. Would this be correct?
I never saw a fret whisperer!! 😂
I essentially do this same thing, but I don't tape the board (make the notes with a pad and pencil) and then do the bulk of the levelling with a fret hammer. You still generally need a hit with a levelling with a beam of various sizes though. That's the step I came here to try and eradicate. I've got to get the Fret Kisser too - it's super expensive here in the UK, but the amount of time it can save you is 100% worth it.
Before leveling just try to hammer that fret in a little bit. Way easier to try than to start leveling brand new frets.
Necessity is the mother of invention. Im sure someone will find a remedy someday. Kudos to this guy for trying. BTW you should start your own ASMR channel 😊
Next he’ll be crunching down potato chips with the mic right next to his mouth.
I appreciate your detailed and exacting approach to guitar building. I’m a lot like that, however, I doubt if anyone could afford one of your guitars simple because of the time you’ve invested. I have tremendous respect for you, especially the Star Trek example. Big fan! I think you should pursue the “one mold press idea for pressing fret wire in a level way. This can and should be done.
I clamp a radius block on my frets and let them sit overnight, no leveling required. I don't like variable radius and I really prefer completely flat.
I see you got lucky with red frets in the middle of black ones. What happens if you have 2 or more red frets next to each other? How do you use the fret kisser when there are 2 uneven frets on either side? How do you choose which one is good to level?
I halfway agree with you. 100% you should check your frets with a rocker before leveling to see if it is even necessary. If you have properly cut fret slots and didn't use glue, you can often tap the high fret and get it level with a smooth brass or dead blow hammer. If you can't get uniform level with the hammer, if there are 5+ high frets, i'd rather do a whole level and crown and know it's right.
what brand/model cutters do you use for stainless steel wire? i noticed the red stewmac cutters are getting mangled jut trying to nip SS wire!
It's a two step process for me. First I use the absolutely cheapest cutter I money can buy. They will get mangles but they are essentially disposable. Then I clean the cut end of the fret wire with the Summit cutter. These cutters cut through the SS with ease and they will last a long time. www.jescarguitar.com/product-category/summit-professional-tools/
@@MarkGutierrez ... and thats what I'll do too. thanks!
on the perfect world example, warwick has that machine but i still level them on repair jobs.great video btw
You are very detailed. How long does it take you to do this job? I ask because it must be a quite expensive cost. Is it?
Building guitars got me here, but, being a science fiction fan, Star Trek won my subscription. Great informative video
What is up with the comments hating on this guy? The title was clickbait? Big deal. Chill out, it's a video about fret leveling you donuts. That said, this is what I actually need. I just got stainless fret wires, and heard them being hard to work with, so I don't want to take off a lot of material and be pain in the ass to crown. Glad to hear that you don't need to level everything down.
It’s a video about fret levelling, but there’s nearly 5 minutes about Star Trek and other bullshit before the content described by the title. If you think that’s ok, it’s you who’s the donut.
What kind of fret radius tool is that ? I have ancient Stew Mac on on last legs and that one looks nicer
GMC Luthier Tools out of the UK. Nice company. Good tools.
You approach fretwork like a mechanical engineer, very methodical and meticulous and more than a little bit anally retentive about it, but the results validate your process. I've been building guitars and doing fretjobs since 1985 and I get results as good as yours or anybody's, but I'm a bit more "production oriented" about my process, meaning, I crank it out in a couple of hours. I've learned shortcuts that work for me. I'm certainly not afraid of running a levelling block over the whole fretjob, this is actually a necessary part of the process if you want ultimately low action.
I can routinely deliver fretwork that's better than the average results from a Plek job. Plek is not magic, it just automates the general process. It's no better than the skills of the guy setting up the machine. It is NOT the magic bullet some people make it out to be.
make frets out of something harder than nickel silver?
I endured your drithel for 2 minutes and I'm done. Thanks for that.
Thanks haha
THANK YOU! I made a video about 3 years ago, called "How NOT to be a fret leveling moron (and actually do it the right way)", in which I talk EXACTLY about this thing which pisses me off whenever I see all these big UA-camrs showing their extremely poor understanding of mechanics and physics, despite being super famous. Spot levelling is THE only way to level a fretboard! The only thing I do differently than you is 1) I check the fret along its entire length, not just in 3-4 spots, as you risk missing out small local bumps despite thinking they can't be THAT localized, but trust me, they can, 2) I don't have a Fret Kisser, but I'm using a regular diamond file, works perfectly and 3) no fall-off past the 12th fret since it's not needed, as I spoke about in my video. Again, I applaud you for the video!!! ♥
@ShawnHawkins33 I know that was meant to be both funny and on point, but it was really one of the worst analogies 😁 there are so many differences, both conceptual and practical, I'd have to write for hours on end... but really, it's not the same at all 🎸
Hi, very nice work! What kind of glue do you use to glue the frets?
Titebond 1. It is water soluble, so I can water it down slightly.
@@MarkGutierrez ok, thank you!!
What is this 'fall off' leveling of the highest frets? (that didn't need leveling?)
Ha, that fall off is something that most luthiers do out of habit or tradition. I actually stopped adding a fall off in my latest builds. It is supposed to help the strings have room to oscillate and provide slightly lower action at the high frets. I now believe it isn't necessary.
Is that $150 fret kisser still working well? I'm wondering how long it will work.
Works well, but SS shortens it's life
@@davekiddie4467 Ok.
Absolutely fantastic.. As a garage guitar builder (cigar box guitars) I haven't decided if the price of the fret kisser is within reach for what I do, but this really starts a chain of ideas! Thanks!!!
Hi Jon, I guild cigar box guitars too! Thanks for watching.
Great production! Camera work, music and style!
2 potential solutions theoretically.
If the fret tolerance was the only issue. Which it most likely is a big part of it but not the only part, making a jig with a die or some other mechanical form of correction that you could pull the wire threw to eliminate the inconsistency in the wire before installation would be one method. This would probably be the least likely seeing as how it’s such a tight tolerance and SS doesn’t manipulate in that way without heat or abrasives.
The second would be a tool that could be run over the fret to produce a perfect height from the fret board to the crown however the radius of the fret board would make this extremely difficult by hand. I believe tools like this exist but more for getting the crown than a perfect height.
Unfortunately the fact that wood tends to adjust to all sorts of environmental factors it’s really more complicated than that. I remember watching a video on PRS and how the make up to 30 adjustments to the neck day over day bc each adjustment will cause a reaction from the wood and hence requiring another adjustment.
Maybe a better solution would be something other than frets? Not necessarily fret less but an alternative? Out of the box solution..?
Like a aluminum neck with the frets machined out of it, or possibly a processes of manufacturing that allows fret wire to be installed in a different fashion.
That's what I said too. No matter how good your CNC machine is in his example we're talking about wood. It's inherently unstable and constantly changes. You would have to use non natural materials to achieve better stability... However this would pose a problem for acoustic instruments since a lot of the sound characteristics come from the wood.
Excellent video! It was interesting for me to see that you and I ended up developing virtually the identical approach. Great minds think alike! 😆 Immediately leveling all the frets probably came out of luthiers’ desire to get things done very quickly. If you don’t care about some height loss, you don’t even need to check anything; just blast everything level, crown, and Bob’s your uncle. When I learned 45 years ago, that was somewhat the norm. It took me a long time before I decided to start by spot leveling first, and working to avoid touching any frets I didn’t have to. In my view your approach should be the expected standard in guitar repair, and it’s wonderful that you made this available for people starting out. There are so many “instructional” videos by nubes, and people with lower standards. So I guess you have high standards as a luthier, AND as a UA-cam contributor! Outstanding work.
The more perfectly level you get your fingerboard the less fret wire you have to file. A fret press also massively helps but for les Paul’s and any other glue in neck you refret you have to hammer in the last bunch
Yup. That's the way. One important addition is that the fret slots should be the same width as the fret tangs minus the barbs. Dental bits (used in a dremel) come in sizes to match tang width (see Kent Everett for more detail}. A similar approach crops up in Highline guitars. However, you describe the process in a slightly more organised and detailed way.
I love the box marked "time travel stuff", nice little Rick and Morty Easter egg for us there lol Of course though if we ever experienced "true level" we would need to destroy the guitar and wipe the memory from our brains or the world would be forever uninhabitable for us.... So don't get too crazy, let it be a little off... lol
True level is just too much for our tiny human brains to comprehend! Lol
Wich brand of masking tape are you using? Looks stronger than the normal masking tape found on most stores...
It is Scotch brand tape for fragile surfaces. Link in description.
Wow, talk about minimum effective dose! Weird star trek stuff aside, I totally appreciate your approach to fret leveling and will use the 2 color pens going fwd. What are your thoughts about tapping a high fret down with a non- metal jewelry hammer? What's happening when a formerly level fret board develops a high or low fret all of a sudden? Liked and subd.
I made my Judgement! all fret jobs are subjective! err-one has they own way of fretting! what works for you and your customer loves it? hey! just like making your recipe of pot roast.
this answered a question. It's the fret tolerances during extrusion that make perfectly seated frets imperfect all across the board. You can have a perfect board, perfect slots, and imperfect fretwire. I too asked, why are we leveling frets? Is most fretwire imperfect? Yes. Yes it is.
As someone pointed out in the comments - may not be the perfect method of establishing low/high frets using a fret rocker alone. I made the same mistake when doing my first spot leveling job on my own guitar. Relying on a fret rocker alone can be misleading, unless you are pretty good at ruling out all the "incorrect scenarios". I thought of using a digital caliper (with a height probe) - if in doubt which of the frets is high and which one is low, it's easy to figure out by double checking the height with a caliper. Make a "fret map" in Excel using the fret rocker + caliper and the just do the spot levelling. P.S. Not something one would do when time is money, but I think it's a good workaround when working on your own instrument
HAHAHAA I thought of a way as soon as you posed the question and you ended with the same idea I had. I had no idea the tolerances were so bad in fret wire.