If you level the frets with relief you are removing the relief!! Absolutely correct to level with neck flat. As always there at exceptions to the rules.
I’ve watched a guy called Sam Deeks I think it is who basically uses a diy I think it was called the katana system. Basically it has a truss rod so say your fingerboard relief is 10’000 you set the level to the exact amount of relief as the board and it’s usually done with the strings on. I know he’s taken some significant flack for his none traditional method but he swears by it after hundreds of levels and refrets. I’m not going to say his method is right nor would I say it’s wrong, but I will say it goes against traditional methods. I also see as he is basically using a trussrod with abrasive paper the width is very narrow and I can see how he could easily do more under two strings than the adjacent strings. Therefor that is the issue I see vs a decent beam which does much more in one go on a perfectly flat board. Then run a fret rocker over it after to correct any outstanding problem areas. I tend to take Chris’s side, if a guitar he’s fretted and level and crowned is reported as no action needed on a pleck machine. I would still stick with the traditional methods. Sometimes you just don’t need to re invent the wheel just because you can
I had the same thought. So if you believe in some neck relief THEN you have to fret level in a flat state. If you can't adjust the neck anymore (for whatever reason) you may have to level in a non-flat state.
Yes! What's the point in going to the trouble of creating some relief in the fretboard if you are just going to level the frets afterward? (I'm assuming that by "relief" we mean a tiny gap between string and fret (about fret 8) when caop'ing at fret 1 and holding string down at the highest fret.)
I’m an amateur, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought the idea of relief was to kind of compensate for imperfection and allow the strings to play without buzzing. If you level your frets with the neck perfectly flat, then you should be able to set the guitar up and try to achieve a perfectly flat neck with no relief when the neck is under string tension. You wouldn’t need any relief at that point. Or is there another reason people would want relief? Do they want different spacing between the string and fret at different points on the neck? Does that make a difference in their playing style/technique or something? Again, forgive my ignorance. I’m just trying to learn.
It is simple for me. The neck should be straight when leveling the frets. If you level the fret that gives the relief you actually play, there will be no relief on the fret even if there is a relief on the neck. This is nonsense, isn't it?
Totally agree Hisashi SASAKI, the neck should be 100% straight when leveling the frets. Not even sure why this question is even asked as related to a full fret leveling procedure. Only reason I could ever imagine you would deviate from the accepted practice would be to remove a bit more fret material from the upper frets to possibly induce a "fall-off" with the upper frets having a touch more material removed to prevent "fretting-out" on the higher notes. The relief induced into the neck through the truss rod for normal playing setup maybe isn't as pronounced in the upper frets, thus the reason to sometimes using the "falling-off" of the upper frets. I guess I need to watch this video again, and maybe a third time to be clear of it's purpose.
@@jeffbosch1697 Correct, on a single cut guitar the Bass side of the neck is glued in and making contact with the body (as a guess, up to the 14th Fret area). Often times the Truss Rod will only bow towards the end of the neck, but not always, designs differ, however I can't imagine the entire neck bowing. That said, it doesn't take much movement at all (bow) to greatly change how the guitar performs and feels to the Player.
Leveling a neck with string tension (a bowed neck) makes no sense to me when your using a straight leveling beam. Personally I get the neck straight as possible and make sure the neck is well supported to prevent any flexing while leveling.
I've done it once. I saw no reason to simulate the bow. Just do straight totally. Here is another question that is a big debate that I cannot get a straight answer....do you use a flat beam to level or one with a radius to match the fretboard?
My luthier has the neck dead straight when leveling the frets. He ads a little fallaway at the end of the fretboard. Every guitar he set up for me plays like a dream. I guess there is no more to say. Flat. Deffinetely flat.
The fallaway is there to provide room for the strings to vibrate at the fundamental frequency (first harmonic) for which maximum displacement occurs in the middle of the freely vibrating part of the string. The relief in the neck is there to provide room for vibration at the second and third harmonics which occur 1/3 and 1/4 of the distance from the point where it’s fretted.
Even if you want to level the frets under string tension, like on the Erlewine neck jig, you still have to adjust the truss rod for a straight neck. Before the advent of double action truss rods I used to built some relief into my necks. But would adjust them straight for leveling.
Hi, recently I started to setup my own guitar, all the frets are in good condition except e string , fret 10-11, it's buzzing like crazy, I believe maybe because I sand it too much, or anyone else knows the causes? I also adjust all nut slots. Should I sanding all frets again or anyone have any suggestions?
Some people play hard (I did when I was learning) and can get the buzz. Easy enough to add some relief. And people play every way in between. Most acoustic’s have a bit of relief. Totally agree with your approach. I think the neck jig is good for folks that don’t have your skill set.
Chris, I found that most players don't know squat about the mechanics of their instrument. That's why we can make a living keeping their instruments in top playing condition. Luthiers use to trust their eye but now they need all the expensive tools because the tool salesman said so. Hell, for years I used an old credit card to check for a high fret!
I think leveling frets with some relief on the neck would only be right if you could simulate the exact relief the neck has with strings on. And even in this case I admit I'm not sure if it would the best option... Mmmm, it makes me think... 🤔
but if you level the frets with bow in the neck then you end up with all the frets level when the guitar is strung and that negates the point of having bow in the neck in the first place. the reason for putting bow in the neck is so that the strings can vibrate more freely, but the frets are the only part of the neck close enough to the strings to effect this, so having a bowed neck with completely levelled frets doesn't perform the required task.
So players who like a heavier attack on strings, perhaps metal players, rock, maybe even funk rhythm players may have a slightly more attacking style, plus atmospheric temperatures high humidity areas, may require, higher actions as too low of an action then can induce too much buzz.😮
Totally agree,99% of the time leveling with a neck flat works perfectly fine, BUT very rarely you get a neck that doesn't behave evenly under string tension. Got a Yamaha BB5000(neck through 24frets) that without string tension, the frets were perfectly leveled. Once I strung it up to pitch , it got a bow between fret 2 and 9 and the rest of the neck was dead straight. Same with a Godin electric. What a headache trying explaining that to the customer. Maybe I should give it some more relief and call it a day. Malfunctioning trussrod? Uneven wood strength? Send it for PLEK treatment? I wouldn't even think of removing the ebony board of the Yamaha to replace the trussrod or add stiffening rods..
It SEEMS to me that slight relief lets you get lower action with less fret buzz because it ever so slightly changes the angle the string leaves the fret passing over the rest of the frets, but it also seems the lighter you play the less its necessary, harder playing induces a taller/fatter "football" of string vibration. At least that's my perception.
Yea, i agree. I always have a lot of buzzing on my SG without any relief, I need around 8 thousands relief to have low action and no horrendous buzzing, still have a little though, but I can live with that
Is it easier to have frets too flat or too radiused? I ask because for example an owner buys 12" radius for a 14" radius guitar versus owner buys 16" radius frets for a 14" radius guitar. It has me wondering 🤔 I guess the question should be, is it easier to flatten or bend frets to the correct radius.
человек рассказывает 15 минут о том, что и так понятно. Прогиб грифа необходим для того, чтобы уместить веретено колебаний струн. Какой же умник станет шлифовать лады при натянутых струнах, если в этом случае мы не даем им место для колебания?
ive torchered my share of bent necked cheapies from used stores. mostly cure intonation first by redoing the bridge. that may only mean easy or worse, but also set basic string height. to really have it easy, and moveable tail pieces make it so. best to get all that cured first, then string 'er up and play some. best i read was that when a string vibrates, a very stretched pointy ended cone forms that measures fattest at the 1/2 span. so clearance beyond the 12th fret adds dissonance, but a bit of bow to there gives air. so i often prefer to work a partially finished inst. strung and tuned; then detune/prop strings away and finish the buzzy frets and stuff. l guess its really about paralleling an ellipse but heavier strings take more room too. closest reasonable action basis starts here.
Relief, to me, seems to be extra space between the string and the fretboard that is unnecessary. This wouldn’t be an issue if it were not for the fact that that means the strings intonation will change more dramatically by having to push it farther through the relief. I’ve always wanted my necks as straight as possible.
After watching several videos, I see that some people level the fretboard (not the frets) with strings and some without. It seems to me that it would be better without strings because if the fretboard is level without strings, when you string the guitar, the tension should produce a natural relief. Is this correct?
I've tried dialing in a slight bow from the truss rod to try it and all I found was the higher frets 20 21 22 etc get taken down too much,,straight is the way for me !
Hi Chris, I see your point. The testing after-ward doesn't make a difference - because I think we would always test. But if we level "frets" when the neck is under tension, we take off more metal on some frets than necessary. To level frets while the neck is under tension, is to only use a truss-rod to keep the neck straight. Taking off more material than necessary renders the neck with less life-time. Truss-rods are for setting up necks. If you start with a level (straight) neck, you can work in the fall off if you want things like that to be factored. I prefer your method.
Love your videos. So justified and clearly explained. I’d love to know your approach to straightening necks ready for a fret dress, where they won’t straighten properly.
No way can you level the frets with any relief (positive or negative) in the neck. It's impossible. If you do level the frets you will effectively remove the relief! It's not rocket science. Set up the neck straight using a proper luthier's straightedge (it has indentations for the frets), then level the frets, then restring and set up the relief. 1,2,3. You do occasionally meet a neck that just will not straighten, as in a 70's Aria Jazz Bass I once had. In that case the neck had a double bow and I just had to make the best compromise I could, then level the frets. In the end it played sweetly, but there was a fair bit of blue air generated in the process. I've also encountered necks that were twisted such that the nut and the bridge were not parallel. Again, make the best compromise, nothing else to do.
Lots of people are saying that a neck jig is pointless, but my understanding is the main reason they exist is because some necks will twist / warp slightly under string tension, so using the neck jig means the tops of the frets will be level when the guitar is strung up and under tension (i.e. when it really matters) as opposed to when it's not under tension. As far as I know (I don't own one), you would typically still adjust the truss rod to get the neck as straight as possible before levelling; the only difference would be any small variations in the contour of the fingerboard between "flat and no tension" vs. "flat and tension". In cases where there's a difference between the two, you want to level for the latter as that's how the guitar will be played. Of course, as Chris said, he builds guitars and so knows the necks he is working on are consistent. If you run a repair shop though, that's not always going to be the case.
Not sure if this has been explained here properly. In a neck jig, you’re setting the neck dead straight while under string tension using the truss rod while it is still strung up. You are not simulating neck relief due to string tension. Removing the strings and then using the jig to get the neck back to its dead straight position without the strings on allows for fretwork that won’t bring up surprises when it’s restrung. Any quirks that the neck exhibits under string tension will be literally flattened out. When the guitar is strung up again off the jig, you set the relief you want as part of the guitar setup and get repeatable and predictable results. I’ve levelled/crowned/polished necks without a neck jig that very rarely but sometimes end up with an awkward spot somewhere on the fretboard. This can fret out because of a tiny quirk in the neck when the neck comes back under tension with strings. Any talk of levelling frets while simulating neck relief is misleading. This can’t be done or at least if you tried, you’d have no reference point to take any measurements from. Of course you can dress fall away into the upper frets to allow lower action/bigger bends up there, but you have to start with a completely level fretboard each time.
Stewmac’s website claims the jig is intended to simulate string tension and its affect on neck curvature (aka relief). From their website: “With the strings on, the neck's curvature is zeroed-in with dial calipers. When the strings come off, the Jig holds the neck in the same position as when it was strung up in the playing position.”
A few years ago A friend and I built 2 neck jigs patterned after the StewMac one for our personal use as hobbyists. I've done refrets and dresses with and without the jig. The jigs we built weren't too difficult to set up and on an expensive guitar I'll use the jig; but while under string tension I keep the neck as flat as it will allow and when finished I'll use the truss rod for any relief. This was a very informative video. Keep up the good work:0)
Can we define “dead flat” to encompass measurements with a common automotive feeler gage? The thinnest on my feeler gage is .0015”. So if my .0015” gage barely goes in under a straight edge with friction, can we define that as “the high side of being flat”? Or would you restrict it to mean that not even a .0015” feeler gage should fit under a flat edge?
To me, it makes NO sense to level under string tension. This completely negates the reason why some relief is put back into the neck in the first place....which is to give a string space to vibrate. If a luthier sands the frets perfectly straight while there is bow in the neck....then he's negating the relief. Does that make sense to you? Am I thinking of this wrong?
@@supernoobsmith5718 the idea is to level under string tension but with the truss rod holding things straight. Then you back off the truss rod and reintroduce relief.
So right on this one . Let’s go full robot with The PLEK . I have worked on hundreds of PLEKED guitars, and guess what They’re so inconsistent All over the place. All the top Gibsons are PLEKED but some are horrible some are good.
I will bow the neck slightly if I’m getting too much buzz. I’m a drummer first and guitarist second so I have a heavy hand. That’s why I’m learning to refret my own guitars! I go through frets like coffee filters. 😂
Plek is way overrated. It is just a mass production tool, not a quality improving tool. Don't get me wrong, the Plek machine result may be better than 80% of poorly skilled "luthiers" could do , but it is not better than skilled luthiers. Guitar companies don't/can't pay for skilled luthiers, even in a custom shop situation. I bought a 2014 1959 Les Paul reissue, new, that had been Plek-ed. The nut slot of the third string was cut too deep and the string buzzed. A ridiculous problem for the amount of money paid. I ended up replacing the nut myself and got a perfect result. I am not even a Luthier. Not a fan of Plek. Also, I prefer neck relief because it allows me to have a lower action overall. Without neck relief (straight), the strings are a lot higher above the upper frets, which, to me, makes for more difficulty in playing the upper frets, which are already more difficult to play due to the close fret spacing. With neck relief, the strings are highest (not nearly as high as a straight neck set-up) near the 12th fret, with the strings lower above the upper and lower frets. To me, the lower the overall action the better.
Hi. I am new to the channel and love it. I have a question I haven´t found an aswer for. I have two compound radious guitars with richlite fretboards. I had noticed too much fretbuzz with low action and wanted to improve that. I am almost sure the frets need some levelling as when they were installed there was virtually no fretwork done to them. I tried to streighten up the neck using the trussrod and a notched straight edge to check it but I never get a straight fretboard, that's on any of the two guitars. It seems the only way the notched straight edge won't rock over the fretboard is if it has a lot of relief. If a try to get no space between the fretboard and the notched straight edge, it can only make contact with more or less half the neck ( form frets one to tweleve more or less) and then you can see a gap that increases beyond that point. Can a notched straight edge be used with compound radius guitars? Is it possible both necks are warped? Sorry if my English is a little rusty. Greetings from Colombia.
Thanks for the video. I've come to the same conclusion - level while the neck is flat. I have a neck jig, and I still use it, but with a slightly different aim: I first adjust the guitar's neck as straight as possible with the truss rod while the strings are on. Then, strap the guitar into the jig, zero the dials, bring the jack and rods up so they're supporting the neck. Then remove the strings. After the strings are off, there is usually some small adjusting that has to be done with the jack. But it's pretty easy getting the neck back to flat, rather than recreating some curve. I check with a straightedge that the neck is flat. The advantage to having the guitar in the jig while working is that it's super solidly mounted. I have the support rods up against the neck and they hold it flat all along the length. If you do not have the support rods up, you can actually see the dials moving by a few thousandths as you run a sanding block up and down the length of the neck, so I feel it's better to have the neck solidly supported all along. The other thing is that, on an older guitar, having the truss rod in a tightened position is a more accurate representation of the condition of the neck. Sometimes the truss tension does some weird things, like cause slight S curves (as viewed from the side). If you work in the jig, with the truss under tension, you can better compensate for these issues. So, I like working under truss rod tension, but on a flat neck.
yeah I totally agree, I have always set my guitars up with no relief, the good ones set up beautifully with the lowest action in the world and dead on perfect intonation, the slightly less good ones would start to struggle right around 0.003 mm of relief and that's literally the thickness of a paper. relief is over rated if your builder made sure your neck and frets are perfectly level you shouldn't need any.
I am a tech, not yet a full-blown luthier, and in the last year have gotten heavy into fret work (fortunately with really good results so far). I was considering building or buying the Erlewine Neck Jig thinking it will increase my accuracy specifically in the leveling process; I have been leveling frets by setting the truss rod to a dead flat neck up to now. This video answered a lot of questions for me, and I think I will simply build a table to stabilize the guitar and neck while I work. Right now I rest the neck on a sand bag to stabilize. Thank you for your informative and engaging videos, and thank you for real talk about the many hype and industry induced mysteries surrounding guitar work, and showing us your real-world processes. Awesome Plek story too!
I have a Les Paul that has very good frets but I think that the previous owner hammered the high frets to bring them into place because had a buzz in that area and I think he hammered the strings on top of the frets causing dents on the frets, I plan to do a level and neck is completely flat but at the 5th fret there is a little gap where I can see the light on the other side. would this cause problems?
I have a question about intonation. I see a lot of videos where people set string height and then do the intonation. But when intonating, doesn't that change string height? So I wonder if it makes more sense to intonate first, and then adjust string height but even at that it seems that one cancels the other, but I'd like to know what real luthiers think?
String height first followed by intonation. If you intonate first, you’ll have to do it over after setting the string height because changing the string height throws off intonation more than intonation throws off string height.
Nah. This dude was flexing when he told that story. But I don’t blame him. If I got that phone call, I’d be telling that story too. “I’m as accurate at a f’ing computer”
All you say seems very sensible. It seems logical to me to set the neck (well the fretboard surface) to be straight and then level the frets so they are as straight and level as the neck. In fact if the neck/fretboard on a newly built guitar is flat and the frets are properly installed it should hardly be necessary to level the frets at all. I think the argument about levelling under tension is that most necks don't simply curve under string tension but tend to form a S curve. They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. I think that, assuming that does happen, the idea is that levelling under tension, with the neck set as straight as possible, allows smoothing out some of that hump. However there are a number of demonstrations of the Plek machine on UA-cam that show the neck profile on-screen and I don't remember any of them showing a hump. In any case the hump is supposed to be the result of compressive force along the neck and I don't see how a neck jig, which only bends a neck forwards, is going to simulate that compression. I didn't think there was any mystery about relief - the idea is to approximate the vibrational path of the strings so a lower overall buzz free action can be achieved, than if the neck is dead straight.
[They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. ] Yes! And this is what many refer to as the area needing "fall-away". It's a trade-off, and a whole separate topic really.
@@stephensaines7100 I've come back to this video after some time so excuse the delayed comment. I personally don't like the idea of a fall away on an electric guitar. In any case my point was that I have seen the - compression results in an S curve - theory propounded in a few places, and maybe it does happen in some guitars. BUT I have seen several UA-cam videos of the PLEK machine mapping the fret board and they NEVER show an S curve. All I have seen is a smooth and simple forward bow under string tension when the truss rod is set for a small amount of relief.
hi, interesting point about different neck construction..i was taught to introduce a tiny backbow into the neck with the trussrod then clamp the body to the bench and put a wedge under the headstock.. push the wedge until the neck is straightish, then skim it. this way you replicate string tension and you also have a bit on truss rod for any future backbow problems. another way to replicate string tension is clamp the body to a bench( guitar fully strung and in tune ) gently put a wedge under the headstock and two wedges under the middle of neck , dont push the wedges tight, undo strings and skim..thats a way of replicating string tension without any fancy expensive machines or jigs.. ive worked for two different well known guitar manufactures.. one did it that way and the other did it your way..as you said, the way the neck is put together affects the strenghth and bendabilitity(new word)ha ha of the wood. for instance multilaminated necks.
I'm having a guitar leveled now on a simulated tension jig. I thought about it and don't like that idea. If you level the frets on a straight plane, the frets will be on a straight plane whether there is neck bow or not. So a neck slightly bowed in a jig will still have a flat fret plane. So if you want relief you have to bow the neck even more. The only advantage to simulated tension while leveling is if you can't get the neck 100 percent straight. This is all assuming your using a long fret level like 18" or so. It's better to be able to set the neck straight and level, and keep it level after strung up. If more bow is necessary give more bow. The fret plane is something nobody ever thinks about, level is level, regardless of what the neck is doing. And you'll wear down the first and last frets unnecessarily by simulating tension.
"[W]e tend to overanalyze and ovethink things into oblivion, because it really isn't that complicated." If truer words about guitar matters were ever uttered, I don't know what they would be. Nicely said, sir.
I loved this video, for the same reason I like your other videos - you go in depth into the reasoning behind your thinking. That's extremely valuable. Too often, guitar youtubers give you their opinions on why something is right or wrong, but they don't explain why, or offer any kind of evidence. In your case, you offer the Plek machine as evidence that leveling the frets with a flat neck is probably the optimal approach.
I love your videos, but think you are missing the point here. You should of course always level the frets with the fretboard perfectly flat.If not, you will remove a lot of material from the frets at either end of the fretboard and make them flat anyway. So you should always adjust the truss rod to have a flat fretboard, string tension or not. The aim of simulating string tension (ideally in playing position) or even levelling with the strings on is to make sure that whatever bumps or twists are created by the various forces applying to the neck in playing condition will be levelled. It is not to create a bow in the neck before levelling. The difference of tension across strings could also be a factor, as a higher tension string can pull more on one side of the neck, making it bow a little bit while the other side is dead flat. This can be quite obvious on bass guitars, where the highest strings often have way more tension that the lowest ones. This is a bummer, because if anything, the lower strings are the ones that would need more relief, but they end up with the least. By levelling with the strings on, you make sure that everything is flat across the board. I am not sure about this last part with string tension simulating jigs though. It seems to me that they will not be able to simulate that, only the overall tension. I hope this is clear and makes sense.
It's clear, but it doesn't make sense. Sorry! The only thing a string tension simulating neck jig does is simulate neck bow. When the jig is set up according to its design and the instructions, it is applying support only to the back of the neck along the center line. If there are bumps on either side of the center line or the neck twists, the jig can't simulate that. When the strings are removed, the jig holds the neck in the strung up position, but only along the center line. It cannot simulate any deviations on either side of the center line toward the outer width of the neck.
@@HighlineGuitars Hi Chris, thanks for taking the time to answer! Yes, we agree that theses jigs (at least the ones I've seen so far) don't simulate variations across the width of the fretboard. That is reserved for levelling with the strings on. However, the assumption is that, as you said in the beginning of the video, a fretboard that is perfectly flat without any tension applied to it will not necessarily be able to remain as flat when under string and trussrod tension, no matter how you adjust the trussrod. I mean flat along the length of the fretboard. So a tensioned neck may develop a slight S shape along its length, or maybe a ski jump at the end of the fretboard for example. These neck jigs are designed to be able to take that into account when levelling. The trussrod should be adjusted so that the fretboard is as flat as possible, they are not designed to level frets with any relief in the neck as you seem to imply in this video, and this has nothing to do with the player's setup preferences. If it was just a matter of simulating relief in the neck, we could just do that with the trussrod. If you haven't, I would encourage you to check out Stewmac's video about their jig, it shows the process very clearly. I just wanted to clear that up, and hopefully we can all have a better understanding how these work and when and how they are supposed to be useful, or at least how they are supposed to be used. Whether or not they are worth using, as you said, it depends.
Only reason I’ve found that you need neck relief IMO is uneven frets or it’s set up for slide! Keep in mind neck relief throws the intonation out... Any change in the truss changes the scale of guitar. On some vintage guitars this is necessary for easy intonation
Michael Hamerin absolutely.. Your average player that does their own string change and truss adj don’t have a clue as to why.. that your actually shortening and Lengthening the scale
Excellent video mate I also level the frets with the neck flat then string the guitar up with the gauge of strings that will be used let it sit for a few days play it check again play it some more seems to work very well. I like my neck to be flat even under string tension not every one does some players like a small amount of relief. Love your Chanel mate have good good one!
And the elephant in the room is-every guitar is totally different. The same kind of wood doesn’t mean it’s going to bow the same. There is no way you can get the frets exactly right. The strings are constantly stretching and the wood continues changing. A steel beam changes constantly. Pretty close is good enough.
If I'm unable to close the gap between the fretboard and notched straight edge, "dead straight" for me would just mean tightening the truss rod as much as I can before the straight edge rocks, right? I've noticed it's fulcrum is around the 12th fret, rather than the 8th fret where the truss rod should bend most. I also want to know how fretboard leveling, using a radius beam, is decided with regards to fret replacements?
Trying to level under tension just adds another variable that is unnecessary to the set up. Different string gauge, different playing styles, different truss rod tension -- all affect the neck. Just level with the neck perfectly flat and then adjust from there. At least you know the frets are level.
@ConManliness No. The level of the frets is different from neck relief. You want the frets absolutely level when the neck is absolutely straight. Neck relief (created by the string tension) then allows space for the sting to vibrate. If you put relief in the neck and then level the frets -- well first of all you'd have to do it a LOT since neck relief changes over time/temperature/humidity/string gauge, and secondly you would (unnecessarily) remove a lot of fret material on the upper and lower frets just to get back to level. If you want your frets heights to provide zero relief when the neck is under tension, just tighten the truss rod and play with a straight neck. Hope I explained that effectively.
Oh gosh! I love the way you explain things and the subjects you touch. One thing I've never done is fret leveled a scalloped fretboard. If you've done it, would you be so kind and share with us/me how you check the fretboard's flatness in this case? Thanks. 😊
It's not possible to reliably test a scalloped fretboard for flatness that I am aware of. You can, however, use a precision straightedge to check how flat the frets are. Unfortunately, this approach has limited usefulness since the frets themselves probably aren't level yet. If the fretboard was glued to the neck, you can use a precision straightedge to check how flat the glue seam is. Again, this approach has limited usefulness since the scalloped surface may not be consistent from fret to fret.
Understring levelling beams (short, medium, long) make his a moot argument. They are low cost and don't require any time to set up, like a neck jig. As mentioned in this video, the undulations of some necks do not reveal themselves until placed under tension. In those odd instances, the apparently sacred-to-some practice of levelling with no strings and neck dead straight accomplishes nothing but lower frets. Also, using a medium-length understring levelling beam and a light hand will allow for any relief to be maintained. My comments are from the vantage point of someone repairing instruments of various ages & quality levels, not from that of a new builder.
When I first started learning about guitar setups from books back in the late 80's/early 90's there was even a lot of differing opinions back then on the best setup techniques. Some even suggested having fretboards with built-in relief. I like to just set the neck flat and level that way. It also depends on what condition the fretboard is in too. Personally on relief, I think it depends on how the guitarist plays. If they're a light player, you can probably get away with a straight neck and no relief. If you're the type that likes to bash away (like many rhythm players), then a little relief to counter the string buzz is good. That's how I set all of mine up. But every guitarist is different.
@@HighlineGuitars haha. I'll have to try suck in my gut next time. But seriously, have you ever recorded a guitar with a straight neck and then added relief and heard the tonal difference? I like electrics with a straight neck because they're punchy, acoustics with relief because they don't get choked out (thin)
Don't ever level frets with a forward neck bow (simulating the string tension) or you will create the hip in the middle of the neck by shaving the neck ends more. The dead straight neck or with a tiny back bow, if you can't make it straight all across the board, is the right way to do it.
Thanks for the info, but what to do if you can not get the neck perfectly flat and it has a pinch of warp in it and you do not want to level and refret the neck?
@@HighlineGuitars I would if I had all the tools, the materials and the knowhow … and if my friend had the patience to wait ;) This is my first real full guitar service. I leveled the frets as much as I dared, recrowned and polished them. Now I’ll try to make a new nut, change the electronics, replace the strings, tune, intonate and play … hope he’ll be happy.
Love your videos, Thanks for sharing your hard earned knowledge. In the case of non professionals like myself, might a neck that’s not completely supported deflect slightly during leveling throwing the level job off slightly? Where a neck jig would hold it straight during leveling even if a but too much downward force we’re applied with the beam or file, resulting in a better job?
I like the KISS method. Keep it simple and take all the rocket science out of it. This is exactly what you are doing with your videos. Thank you for making these videos.
The purpose of relief is to allow space for the strings to vibrate freely along their entire length. Without it, the strings will buzz against the frets at the point on the neck where the first and second harmonics produce maximum displacement.
I definitely think leveling the frets on a level neck that is straight and flat, is the only way to go. The idea of leveling with any type of curve on the fret board is wacky. I've watched a few videos of these techniques, and came away speechless and confused... I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that it makes no sense. As far as relief goes, the ideal situation for me is a dead flat neck. I believe you will always get your best action across the fretboard. Since the neck is wood, the only reason I would add a small amount of relief is to protect against front-bow, which could happen transporting the guitar to a gig, or even during the gig. It's just a little bit of insurance that it stays playable. A small change of temperature, the next thing you know it's choking out all over the place. Of course, if you like higher action, then this entire conversation / thread might not concern you.
Kind of like when tuners became widely available. Suddenly, intonation was measurable and of primary importance. Even though people had played, recorded, and made hits with out of tune guitars. I like my neck with no relief. Here's why. If I set the relief about .010 +- before it plays well I will also have to induce fall away beyond the 12th fret. This,I believe, is because at mid neck the guitar is fingering in a trough, which rattles up the neck. Chet fans know he liked .008 relief, but what is less known is he preferred a high action. If that's his recipe, so be it. For me, my recipe is no relief, low action, no fall away. Since I haven't made 60 years worth of wonderful recordings, I doubt anyone would ask for my preferences. The point is, players should find their preference rather than copy something they heard or read about without getting the whole story. Great video.
It just doesn't make sense to level frets with string tension, necks are going to move some bit, also what if you change string guage? Another factor is won't you be taking more off the top of the frets near the nut because of relief? I'm not a Luthier but this is brillaint knowledge and advice..
I like your detail explanation...my thought is level on flat neck the bow would not produce high frets.. biggest issue we have with buzz and such...and u can also adjust truss rod after strings if the bow is significant.. Thanks for giving me the value of your experience.
Thanks for the video; I found it very interesting and detailed. What about leveling the fretboard flat (without frets) with the truss rod engaged by a quarter of a turn? Does it make any sense? This way, the player would still have the opportunity to add some relief. Thanks.
Enjoyed that vid thanks. You probably already know this but Dan Erlewine also advocates for a flat neck with no relief. It makes a lot of sense to me personally so I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject.
That’s the best question, and I think yes totally flat when leveling. The truss rod can always be adjusted after stringing . Just my take! I’m a self taught Luthier that has apprenticed under a very strict builder that has forgotten more about stringed instruments than most ever know!
Re: general relief preference (as a player) I find I need some relief rather than a flat fretboard with a 9.5” or especially a 7.25” radius so that I can set the action medium-low and have whole step bends that don’t choke out. Could just be that my frets aren’t completely level though!
Just subbed your channel - have enjoyed your videos. Reading the comments, it seems there's plenty of agreement to this being done dead level. With that the case, it seems to me the Erlewine jig is unnecessary although, if you have a single-action truss rod, you do need some sort of jig to straighten the neck from a backbow if it has one after the strings are off and it is on it's back. You can make something simple with wood and threaded rod. If you have a double-action truss rod then you can use that as you have shown here - no jig necessary. Straight is straight. Whether you are in "playing position" or the guitar is on it's back, straight (by the notched straight edge) is straight. Whether the strings are on or the strings are off, straight is straight. In my opinion this has been way over-thought as you note in the video. I would say, if you did want to level with slight relief in the neck, then the jig would help, but you could also use the notched straight edge with feeler gauges in the middle of the neck. Also, one commenter below noted that neck support during the leveling operation is important which I agree with - you could make an adjustable support for the middle of the neck fairly simply.
I made my own neck jig years ago and used it with great sucess. But I also found out years ago that it was a lot of unnecessary work. So I no longer use as a regular thing. However when using a jig the neck still needs to be flat/straight. You would not want to simulate relief in the neck and then sand it with a flat beam that would create a back bow once out of the jig. Also I started out using a dead flat neck on my first guitars but it's impossible to get a low, 4/64, string height without buzz without some relief in the neck. I don't use neck relief as a cop out for a bad set up. .080 as a rule. I do use the fret jig when doing compression fretting on old Martins that don't have adjustable truss rods. I agree a good fret job is miles ahead of the plek, not a fan.
and once in the jig. how is it flat/straight? as it is simulating string tension... is not the point of the jig to level th frets with simulated tension, therefor with a beam ,no matter what would happen if it was relased
@@dannyjonze, Hi Danny, the point is to flatten the neck out under string tension and then take the strings off and re-establish the flat neck with the head jack and the nut strap. Without changing the truss rod so when set the neck is still exerting the same stresses. Watch the Dan Erlewine video he explains it very well. Heck somewhere in my videos there's one showing how to use the jig.
Well my Les Paul needs leveling and the word "level" is right in the title... so I'm going to go with a level Nick to begin with. Thank you for the video
Too many things in play at once to use a tension jig like bridge/saddle height , the nut itself ( that's the most important part how the nut is cut ) . Too deep of nut slots can create fret buzz that usually can't be fixed without upsizing string gauge . Another is environment. Fret level a guitar in winter in Alberta Canada here can get you really nice low action with minimal fret buzz because it so dry . Along comes spring and it's a fret buzzing rollercoaster price of crap . Best way to fret level a guitar is the way the customer wants it or if it's your guitar the way you like it . Unless the necks warped beyond repair it's usually a simple straight forward process that takes a few hours .
Level the frets when the neck is flat. Action is more a result of the relationship between the nut and the saddles. Relief can achieve a similar result but as you said, isn't the ideal way to go.
I know why I like a bit of relief so I can better and more deliberately dampen or mute strings more easily and open string to hammer on but not an exaggeration of relief just an extra 2 or 3 thousands but as for neck radius is switch between acoustic and electric so the 16” and 9.5” and the grab a mandolin lol mental
Music man are leveling the fretboard (not the frets) with some back bow tension on the trussrod. That give a bit of adjustability to get a correct relief when you are using slinky strings. Otherwize the neck is to rigid to bend even if you loosen the trussrod all the way.
Re: general relief preference (as a player) I find I need some relief rather than a flat fretboard with a 9.5” or especially a 7.25” radius so that I can set the action medium-low and have whole step bends that don’t choke out. Could just be that my frets aren’t completely level though!
You set the guitar for playing wiith a perfectly straight neck and more importantly parallel to horizontally straight neck pocket bottom, hence it makes perfect sense to level it straight. What about leveling a straigh but angled neck?
@@HighlineGuitars In my limited experience the fall off if thats the term is needed for tilted necks. Or I’m doing something wrong. I guess you treat a strat neck the same as a les paul neck. Without fall off? Would you level the frets on a LP prior to gluing it in or after when it’s tilted?
@@3500ton Understand that from the saddles to the nut, the strings are straight. The angle of the neck doesn't matter. What matters is the string height over the upper frets. If the action is low, they'll buzz since the string's amplitude of oscillation is greatest over the upper frets. By adding fall off, you give the strings the room they need to vibrate without buzzing. The angle of the neck has no impact on this. I would never level the frets before gluing in the neck. If you level before, you're going to have to level again after if there's the slightest change in the neck's geometry.
@@HighlineGuitars Understood. Thank you very much on your precise explanation. It's a great help, like your entire channel. Like you explained, I like to set the neck as straight as possible (with the strings on) and address the action with the nut and bridge. Neck IMO should be straight, without relief if possible and it should be possible. I find the tension of the strings much less with a setup like that, therefore the playing is more comfortable. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge .
I like your straightforward approach to this problem. Sometimes YAGNI is the best approach (as in software development), "You Aren't Going to Need It".
Being a player as well as a builder, I prefer that a neck is as straight as possible during fret leveling, because that is also how I set up the guitars that I play. I have low, low action (1/16" under the high e at the nineteenth fret), super light strings (.008 to .038), do a lot of wide bending, and get no buzzing at all until the frets are quite worn down. My fret leveling tool is a 24" piece of hardrock maple with stick-it sandpaper, and after initial leveling along the length of the neck, all my sanding and polishing is done parallel to the frets. I feel that if I used this long tool to level frets on a bowed neck I would take more metal off the highest and lowest frets, leaving more metal on the frets in the middle. I can't see any advantage that would result from this. Thanks again for your well-considered, low key approach, the antithesis of some guys I will only refer to as "TTG."
I am 64 now and have been playing bass and guitar since 1972...but I have never done this leveling myself. So I bought a Notched Straightedge for bass...a Maxparts BF-AF16 Fret File...a crowning file I had already, also understring radius gauges - and look forward to it like a little boy! That it is best to do this with an absolutely straight neck, I strongly suspected and now got confirmation. Thanks a lot! 🙂
On the question of neck relief - I played with many "blues" guys in my day and their widely held belief is that the bow serves two purposes. 1) They prefer the higher action associated with that bow. 2) They believe that the bow creates a slightly "shorter" neck thus resulting in a slightly more "slack" string tension with the same tuning. I don't agree with either of those and prefer a dead flat board lol
If you level the frets with relief you are removing the relief!! Absolutely correct to level with neck flat. As always there at exceptions to the rules.
Very true!
I’ve watched a guy called Sam Deeks I think it is who basically uses a diy I think it was called the katana system. Basically it has a truss rod so say your fingerboard relief is 10’000 you set the level to the exact amount of relief as the board and it’s usually done with the strings on. I know he’s taken some significant flack for his none traditional method but he swears by it after hundreds of levels and refrets. I’m not going to say his method is right nor would I say it’s wrong, but I will say it goes against traditional methods. I also see as he is basically using a trussrod with abrasive paper the width is very narrow and I can see how he could easily do more under two strings than the adjacent strings. Therefor that is the issue I see vs a decent beam which does much more in one go on a perfectly flat board. Then run a fret rocker over it after to correct any outstanding problem areas.
I tend to take Chris’s side, if a guitar he’s fretted and level and crowned is reported as no action needed on a pleck machine. I would still stick with the traditional methods. Sometimes you just don’t need to re invent the wheel just because you can
I had the same thought. So if you believe in some neck relief THEN you have to fret level in a flat state. If you can't adjust the neck anymore (for whatever reason) you may have to level in a non-flat state.
Yes! What's the point in going to the trouble of creating some relief in the fretboard if you are just going to level the frets afterward?
(I'm assuming that by "relief" we mean a tiny gap between string and fret (about fret 8) when caop'ing at fret 1 and holding string down at the highest fret.)
I’m an amateur, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought the idea of relief was to kind of compensate for imperfection and allow the strings to play without buzzing. If you level your frets with the neck perfectly flat, then you should be able to set the guitar up and try to achieve a perfectly flat neck with no relief when the neck is under string tension. You wouldn’t need any relief at that point. Or is there another reason people would want relief? Do they want different spacing between the string and fret at different points on the neck? Does that make a difference in their playing style/technique or something? Again, forgive my ignorance. I’m just trying to learn.
It is simple for me.
The neck should be straight when leveling the frets.
If you level the fret that gives the relief you actually play, there will be no relief on the fret even if there is a relief on the neck. This is nonsense, isn't it?
Totally agree Hisashi SASAKI, the neck should be 100% straight when leveling the frets. Not even sure why this question is even asked as related to a full fret leveling procedure. Only reason I could ever imagine you would deviate from the accepted practice would be to remove a bit more fret material from the upper frets to possibly induce a "fall-off" with the upper frets having a touch more material removed to prevent "fretting-out" on the higher notes. The relief induced into the neck through the truss rod for normal playing setup maybe isn't as pronounced in the upper frets, thus the reason to sometimes using the "falling-off" of the upper frets. I guess I need to watch this video again, and maybe a third time to be clear of it's purpose.
Basic physics, the process of leveling indicates flatness or trueness on a certain length. You dont level a bow without affecting material removal
@@hkguitar1984 The upper frets are usually where the neck joins the body, so won't there will be zero bow there no matter the amount of relief?
@@jeffbosch1697 Correct, on a single cut guitar the Bass side of the neck is glued in and making contact with the body (as a guess, up to the 14th Fret area).
Often times the Truss Rod will only bow towards the end of the neck, but not always, designs differ, however I can't imagine the entire neck bowing.
That said, it doesn't take much movement at all (bow) to greatly change how the guitar performs and feels to the Player.
Leveling a neck with string tension (a bowed neck) makes no sense to me when your using a straight leveling beam. Personally I get the neck straight as possible and make sure the neck is well supported to prevent any flexing while leveling.
I've done it once. I saw no reason to simulate the bow. Just do straight totally. Here is another question that is a big debate that I cannot get a straight answer....do you use a flat beam to level or one with a radius to match the fretboard?
That is a luthiers dream. Send it to the PLEK guys... "yeah, this guitar is already perfect"
obsessive in my opinion, just play the guitar after the Luthier has done their tweaks and see if you like it lol
My luthier has the neck dead straight when leveling the frets. He ads a little fallaway at the end of the fretboard. Every guitar he set up for me plays like a dream. I guess there is no more to say. Flat. Deffinetely flat.
The fallaway is there to provide room for the strings to vibrate at the fundamental frequency (first harmonic) for which maximum displacement occurs in the middle of the freely vibrating part of the string. The relief in the neck is there to provide room for vibration at the second and third harmonics which occur 1/3 and 1/4 of the distance from the point where it’s fretted.
Even if you want to level the frets under string tension, like on the Erlewine neck jig, you still have to adjust the truss rod for a straight neck. Before the advent of double action truss rods I used to built some relief into my necks. But would adjust them straight for leveling.
Hi, recently I started to setup my own guitar, all the frets are in good condition except e string , fret 10-11, it's buzzing like crazy, I believe maybe because I sand it too much, or anyone else knows the causes? I also adjust all nut slots. Should I sanding all frets again or anyone have any suggestions?
Some people play hard (I did when I was learning) and can get the buzz. Easy enough to add some relief. And people play every way in between. Most acoustic’s have a bit of relief. Totally agree with your approach. I think the neck jig is good for folks that don’t have your skill set.
Chris, I found that most players don't know squat about the mechanics of their instrument. That's why we can make a living keeping their instruments in top playing condition. Luthiers use to trust their eye but now they need all the expensive tools because the tool salesman said so. Hell, for years I used an old credit card to check for a high fret!
hahahah I used credit cards!!!
Yeah. I use cutter blades. You can break them at appropiate lenghts.
Surely it's best to level the frets with the fingerboard level. Isn't the job of the truss rod to actually counteract the tension of the strings.
I think leveling frets with some relief on the neck would only be right if you could simulate the exact relief the neck has with strings on. And even in this case I admit I'm not sure if it would the best option... Mmmm, it makes me think... 🤔
but if you level the frets with bow in the neck then you end up with all the frets level when the guitar is strung and that negates the point of having bow in the neck in the first place. the reason for putting bow in the neck is so that the strings can vibrate more freely, but the frets are the only part of the neck close enough to the strings to effect this, so having a bowed neck with completely levelled frets doesn't perform the required task.
So players who like a heavier attack on strings, perhaps metal players, rock, maybe even funk rhythm players may have a slightly more attacking style, plus atmospheric temperatures high humidity areas, may require, higher actions as too low of an action then can induce too much buzz.😮
Totally agree,99% of the time leveling with a neck flat works perfectly fine, BUT very rarely you get a neck that doesn't behave evenly under string tension. Got a Yamaha BB5000(neck through 24frets) that without string tension, the frets were perfectly leveled. Once I strung it up to pitch , it got a bow between fret 2 and 9 and the rest of the neck was dead straight. Same with a Godin electric. What a headache trying explaining that to the customer. Maybe I should give it some more relief and call it a day. Malfunctioning trussrod? Uneven wood strength? Send it for PLEK treatment? I wouldn't even think of removing the ebony board of the Yamaha to replace the trussrod or add stiffening rods..
It SEEMS to me that slight relief lets you get lower action with less fret buzz because it ever so slightly changes the angle the string leaves the fret passing over the rest of the frets, but it also seems the lighter you play the less its necessary, harder playing induces a taller/fatter "football" of string vibration. At least that's my perception.
Yea, i agree. I always have a lot of buzzing on my SG without any relief, I need around 8 thousands relief to have low action and no horrendous buzzing, still have a little though, but I can live with that
Is it easier to have frets too flat or too radiused? I ask because for example an owner buys 12" radius for a 14" radius guitar versus owner buys 16" radius frets for a 14" radius guitar. It has me wondering 🤔 I guess the question should be, is it easier to flatten or bend frets to the correct radius.
человек рассказывает 15 минут о том, что и так понятно. Прогиб грифа необходим для того, чтобы уместить веретено колебаний струн. Какой же умник станет шлифовать лады при натянутых струнах, если в этом случае мы не даем им место для колебания?
ive torchered my share of bent necked cheapies from used stores. mostly cure intonation first by redoing the bridge. that may only mean easy or worse, but also set basic string height. to really have it easy, and moveable tail pieces make it so. best to get all that cured first, then string 'er up and play some.
best i read was that when a string vibrates, a very stretched pointy ended cone forms that measures fattest at the 1/2 span. so clearance beyond the 12th fret adds dissonance, but a bit of bow to there gives air. so i often prefer to work a partially finished inst. strung and tuned; then detune/prop strings away and finish the buzzy frets and stuff. l guess its really about paralleling an ellipse but heavier strings take more room too. closest reasonable action basis starts here.
Relief, to me, seems to be extra space between the string and the fretboard that is unnecessary. This wouldn’t be an issue if it were not for the fact that that means the strings intonation will change more dramatically by having to push it farther through the relief. I’ve always wanted my necks as straight as possible.
After watching several videos, I see that some people level the fretboard (not the frets) with strings and some without. It seems to me that it would be better without strings because if the fretboard is level without strings, when you string the guitar, the tension should produce a natural relief. Is this correct?
This is probably the best video I've seen explaining why a bit of neck relief might be desired: ua-cam.com/video/dRzPbAiR-mk/v-deo.html
I've tried dialing in a slight bow from the truss rod to try it and all I found was the higher frets 20 21 22 etc get taken down too much,,straight is the way for me !
I found the same conclusion about the the neck jig! When I was fretting 4-5 a year I used one. When doing 4-5 a month?? NO WAY ITS WORTH IT!
Hi Chris, I see your point. The testing after-ward doesn't make a difference - because I think we would always test. But if we level "frets" when the neck is under tension, we take off more metal on some frets than necessary. To level frets while the neck is under tension, is to only use a truss-rod to keep the neck straight. Taking off more material than necessary renders the neck with less life-time. Truss-rods are for setting up necks. If you start with a level (straight) neck, you can work in the fall off if you want things like that to be factored. I prefer your method.
Talk about overanalyzing... Geeesh
Love your videos. So justified and clearly explained. I’d love to know your approach to straightening necks ready for a fret dress, where they won’t straighten properly.
No way can you level the frets with any relief (positive or negative) in the neck. It's impossible. If you do level the frets you will effectively remove the relief! It's not rocket science. Set up the neck straight using a proper luthier's straightedge (it has indentations for the frets), then level the frets, then restring and set up the relief. 1,2,3. You do occasionally meet a neck that just will not straighten, as in a 70's Aria Jazz Bass I once had. In that case the neck had a double bow and I just had to make the best compromise I could, then level the frets. In the end it played sweetly, but there was a fair bit of blue air generated in the process. I've also encountered necks that were twisted such that the nut and the bridge were not parallel. Again, make the best compromise, nothing else to do.
Lots of people are saying that a neck jig is pointless, but my understanding is the main reason they exist is because some necks will twist / warp slightly under string tension, so using the neck jig means the tops of the frets will be level when the guitar is strung up and under tension (i.e. when it really matters) as opposed to when it's not under tension. As far as I know (I don't own one), you would typically still adjust the truss rod to get the neck as straight as possible before levelling; the only difference would be any small variations in the contour of the fingerboard between "flat and no tension" vs. "flat and tension". In cases where there's a difference between the two, you want to level for the latter as that's how the guitar will be played. Of course, as Chris said, he builds guitars and so knows the necks he is working on are consistent. If you run a repair shop though, that's not always going to be the case.
Not sure if this has been explained here properly. In a neck jig, you’re setting the neck dead straight while under string tension using the truss rod while it is still strung up. You are not simulating neck relief due to string tension.
Removing the strings and then using the jig to get the neck back to its dead straight position without the strings on allows for fretwork that won’t bring up surprises when it’s restrung. Any quirks that the neck exhibits under string tension will be literally flattened out.
When the guitar is strung up again off the jig, you set the relief you want as part of the guitar setup and get repeatable and predictable results.
I’ve levelled/crowned/polished necks without a neck jig that very rarely but sometimes end up with an awkward spot somewhere on the fretboard. This can fret out because of a tiny quirk in the neck when the neck comes back under tension with strings.
Any talk of levelling frets while simulating neck relief is misleading. This can’t be done or at least if you tried, you’d have no reference point to take any measurements from.
Of course you can dress fall away into the upper frets to allow lower action/bigger bends up there, but you have to start with a completely level fretboard each time.
Stewmac’s website claims the jig is intended to simulate string tension and its affect on neck curvature (aka relief). From their website: “With the strings on, the neck's curvature is zeroed-in with dial calipers. When the strings come off, the Jig holds the neck in the same position as when it was strung up in the playing position.”
A few years ago A friend and I built 2 neck jigs patterned after the StewMac one for our personal use as hobbyists. I've done refrets and dresses with and without the jig. The jigs we built weren't too difficult to set up and on an expensive guitar I'll use the jig; but while under string tension I keep the neck as flat as it will allow and when finished I'll use the truss rod for any relief. This was a very informative video. Keep up the good work:0)
Can we define “dead flat” to encompass measurements with a common automotive feeler gage? The thinnest on my feeler gage is .0015”. So if my .0015” gage barely goes in under a straight edge with friction, can we define that as “the high side of being flat”? Or would you restrict it to mean that not even a .0015” feeler gage should fit under a flat edge?
It’s wood. It’s a guitar. Don’t overthink it.
To me, it makes NO sense to level under string tension. This completely negates the reason why some relief is put back into the neck in the first place....which is to give a string space to vibrate. If a luthier sands the frets perfectly straight while there is bow in the neck....then he's negating the relief. Does that make sense to you? Am I thinking of this wrong?
@@supernoobsmith5718 the idea is to level under string tension but with the truss rod holding things straight. Then you back off the truss rod and reintroduce relief.
So right on this one . Let’s go full robot with The PLEK . I have worked on hundreds of PLEKED guitars, and guess what They’re so inconsistent All over the place. All the top Gibsons are PLEKED but some are horrible some are good.
I've heard that from other repair guys as well.
I agree with this approach also as level is level and straight is straight, especially on a new neck.
I will bow the neck slightly if I’m getting too much buzz. I’m a drummer first and guitarist second so I have a heavy hand. That’s why I’m learning to refret my own guitars! I go through frets like coffee filters. 😂
Self reliance always makes you a better player. I think I'll put that on a t-shirt!
Plek is way overrated. It is just a mass production tool, not a quality improving tool. Don't get me wrong, the Plek machine result may be better than 80% of poorly skilled "luthiers" could do , but it is not better than skilled luthiers. Guitar companies don't/can't pay for skilled luthiers, even in a custom shop situation. I bought a 2014 1959 Les Paul reissue, new, that had been Plek-ed. The nut slot of the third string was cut too deep and the string buzzed. A ridiculous problem for the amount of money paid. I ended up replacing the nut myself and got a perfect result. I am not even a Luthier. Not a fan of Plek.
Also, I prefer neck relief because it allows me to have a lower action overall. Without neck relief (straight), the strings are a lot higher above the upper frets, which, to me, makes for more difficulty in playing the upper frets, which are already more difficult to play due to the close fret spacing. With neck relief, the strings are highest (not nearly as high as a straight neck set-up) near the 12th fret, with the strings lower above the upper and lower frets. To me, the lower the overall action the better.
It depends on the operator.
Hi. I am new to the channel and love it. I have a question I haven´t found an aswer for. I have two compound radious guitars with richlite fretboards. I had noticed too much fretbuzz with low action and wanted to improve that. I am almost sure the frets need some levelling as when they were installed there was virtually no fretwork done to them. I tried to streighten up the neck using the trussrod and a notched straight edge to check it but I never get a straight fretboard, that's on any of the two guitars. It seems the only way the notched straight edge won't rock over the fretboard is if it has a lot of relief. If a try to get no space between the fretboard and the notched straight edge, it can only make contact with more or less half the neck ( form frets one to tweleve more or less) and then you can see a gap that increases beyond that point. Can a notched straight edge be used with compound radius guitars? Is it possible both necks are warped? Sorry if my English is a little rusty. Greetings from Colombia.
Sorry, but I don't know. I don't bother with compound radius fretboards.
Thanks for the video. I've come to the same conclusion - level while the neck is flat. I have a neck jig, and I still use it, but with a slightly different aim: I first adjust the guitar's neck as straight as possible with the truss rod while the strings are on. Then, strap the guitar into the jig, zero the dials, bring the jack and rods up so they're supporting the neck. Then remove the strings. After the strings are off, there is usually some small adjusting that has to be done with the jack. But it's pretty easy getting the neck back to flat, rather than recreating some curve. I check with a straightedge that the neck is flat.
The advantage to having the guitar in the jig while working is that it's super solidly mounted. I have the support rods up against the neck and they hold it flat all along the length. If you do not have the support rods up, you can actually see the dials moving by a few thousandths as you run a sanding block up and down the length of the neck, so I feel it's better to have the neck solidly supported all along. The other thing is that, on an older guitar, having the truss rod in a tightened position is a more accurate representation of the condition of the neck. Sometimes the truss tension does some weird things, like cause slight S curves (as viewed from the side). If you work in the jig, with the truss under tension, you can better compensate for these issues.
So, I like working under truss rod tension, but on a flat neck.
Thanks for sharing
yeah I totally agree, I have always set my guitars up with no relief, the good ones set up beautifully with the lowest action in the world and dead on perfect intonation, the slightly less good ones would start to struggle right around 0.003 mm of relief and that's literally the thickness of a paper. relief is over rated if your builder made sure your neck and frets are perfectly level you shouldn't need any.
I am a tech, not yet a full-blown luthier, and in the last year have gotten heavy into fret work (fortunately with really good results so far). I was considering building or buying the Erlewine Neck Jig thinking it will increase my accuracy specifically in the leveling process; I have been leveling frets by setting the truss rod to a dead flat neck up to now. This video answered a lot of questions for me, and I think I will simply build a table to stabilize the guitar and neck while I work. Right now I rest the neck on a sand bag to stabilize.
Thank you for your informative and engaging videos, and thank you for real talk about the many hype and industry induced mysteries surrounding guitar work, and showing us your real-world processes. Awesome Plek story too!
I have a Les Paul that has very good frets but I think that the previous owner hammered the high frets to bring them into place because had a buzz in that area and I think he hammered the strings on top of the frets causing dents on the frets, I plan to do a level and neck is completely flat but at the 5th fret there is a little gap where I can see the light on the other side. would this cause problems?
Yes. You need to fix it.
I have a question I’m you have the answer for, how do you level a scalloped fretboard?
The closest you can get is to level the glue seam if there is on. If there isn’t one, you’re out of luck.
I have a question about intonation.
I see a lot of videos where people set string height and then do the intonation. But when intonating, doesn't that change string height? So I wonder if it makes more sense to intonate first, and then adjust string height but even at that it seems that one cancels the other, but I'd like to know what real luthiers think?
String height first followed by intonation. If you intonate first, you’ll have to do it over after setting the string height because changing the string height throws off intonation more than intonation throws off string height.
Oh man, if I ever got a call from a PLEK company saying "your guitar is perfect", I'd feel pretty badass.
Just keep in mind it all depends on the skill of the PLEK operator.
Nah. This dude was flexing when he told that story. But I don’t blame him. If I got that phone call, I’d be telling that story too. “I’m as accurate at a f’ing computer”
All you say seems very sensible. It seems logical to me to set the neck (well the fretboard surface) to be straight and then level the frets so they are as straight and level as the neck. In fact if the neck/fretboard on a newly built guitar is flat and the frets are properly installed it should hardly be necessary to level the frets at all.
I think the argument about levelling under tension is that most necks don't simply curve under string tension but tend to form a S curve. They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. I think that, assuming that does happen, the idea is that levelling under tension, with the neck set as straight as possible, allows smoothing out some of that hump.
However there are a number of demonstrations of the Plek machine on UA-cam that show the neck profile on-screen and I don't remember any of them showing a hump. In any case the hump is supposed to be the result of compressive force along the neck and I don't see how a neck jig, which only bends a neck forwards, is going to simulate that compression.
I didn't think there was any mystery about relief - the idea is to approximate the vibrational path of the strings so a lower overall buzz free action can be achieved, than if the neck is dead straight.
[They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. ] Yes! And this is what many refer to as the area needing "fall-away". It's a trade-off, and a whole separate topic really.
@@stephensaines7100 I've come back to this video after some time so excuse the delayed comment. I personally don't like the idea of a fall away on an electric guitar. In any case my point was that I have seen the - compression results in an S curve - theory propounded in a few places, and maybe it does happen in some guitars. BUT I have seen several UA-cam videos of the PLEK machine mapping the fret board and they NEVER show an S curve. All I have seen is a smooth and simple forward bow under string tension when the truss rod is set for a small amount of relief.
My question is, can a fret wire be so inferior that it immediately begins to wear? Chinese made guitar question.
Yes, fret wire quality can vary.
How can I check if my neck is straight when it’s fully and deeply scalloped? Notched straight edge obviously won’t work.
Is there a glue seam between the fretboard and the neck? If so, line up a straight edge with the seam to check for straightness. Otherwise, you can’t.
@@HighlineGuitars thank for replying, it’s one piece neck YJM Strat maple, that needs fret work.
hi, interesting point about different neck construction..i was taught to introduce a tiny backbow into the neck with the trussrod then clamp the body to the bench and put a wedge under the headstock.. push the wedge until the neck is straightish, then skim it. this way you replicate string tension and you also have a bit on truss rod for any future backbow problems. another way to replicate string tension is clamp the body to a bench( guitar fully strung and in tune ) gently put a wedge under the headstock and two wedges under the middle of neck , dont push the wedges tight, undo strings and skim..thats a way of replicating string tension without any fancy expensive machines or jigs.. ive worked for two different well known guitar manufactures.. one did it that way and the other did it your way..as you said, the way the neck is put together affects the strenghth and bendabilitity(new word)ha ha of the wood. for instance multilaminated necks.
I've seen people use figure eight patterns and left to right, what do you prefer?
I go back and forth even though it doesn't matter at all.
Just found your channel. Just what I've been looking for! I hope your subscriptions continue to grow.
I'm having a guitar leveled now on a simulated tension jig. I thought about it and don't like that idea. If you level the frets on a straight plane, the frets will be on a straight plane whether there is neck bow or not. So a neck slightly bowed in a jig will still have a flat fret plane. So if you want relief you have to bow the neck even more. The only advantage to simulated tension while leveling is if you can't get the neck 100 percent straight. This is all assuming your using a long fret level like 18" or so. It's better to be able to set the neck straight and level, and keep it level after strung up. If more bow is necessary give more bow. The fret plane is something nobody ever thinks about, level is level, regardless of what the neck is doing. And you'll wear down the first and last frets unnecessarily by simulating tension.
"[W]e tend to overanalyze and ovethink things into oblivion, because it really isn't that complicated." If truer words about guitar matters were ever uttered, I don't know what they would be. Nicely said, sir.
I loved this video, for the same reason I like your other videos - you go in depth into the reasoning behind your thinking. That's extremely valuable. Too often, guitar youtubers give you their opinions on why something is right or wrong, but they don't explain why, or offer any kind of evidence. In your case, you offer the Plek machine as evidence that leveling the frets with a flat neck is probably the optimal approach.
I love your videos, but think you are missing the point here. You should of course always level the frets with the fretboard perfectly flat.If not, you will remove a lot of material from the frets at either end of the fretboard and make them flat anyway. So you should always adjust the truss rod to have a flat fretboard, string tension or not.
The aim of simulating string tension (ideally in playing position) or even levelling with the strings on is to make sure that whatever bumps or twists are created by the various forces applying to the neck in playing condition will be levelled. It is not to create a bow in the neck before levelling.
The difference of tension across strings could also be a factor, as a higher tension string can pull more on one side of the neck, making it bow a little bit while the other side is dead flat. This can be quite obvious on bass guitars, where the highest strings often have way more tension that the lowest ones. This is a bummer, because if anything, the lower strings are the ones that would need more relief, but they end up with the least. By levelling with the strings on, you make sure that everything is flat across the board. I am not sure about this last part with string tension simulating jigs though. It seems to me that they will not be able to simulate that, only the overall tension. I hope this is clear and makes sense.
It's clear, but it doesn't make sense. Sorry! The only thing a string tension simulating neck jig does is simulate neck bow. When the jig is set up according to its design and the instructions, it is applying support only to the back of the neck along the center line. If there are bumps on either side of the center line or the neck twists, the jig can't simulate that. When the strings are removed, the jig holds the neck in the strung up position, but only along the center line. It cannot simulate any deviations on either side of the center line toward the outer width of the neck.
@@HighlineGuitars Hi Chris, thanks for taking the time to answer!
Yes, we agree that theses jigs (at least the ones I've seen so far) don't simulate variations across the width of the fretboard. That is reserved for levelling with the strings on.
However, the assumption is that, as you said in the beginning of the video, a fretboard that is perfectly flat without any tension applied to it will not necessarily be able to remain as flat when under string and trussrod tension, no matter how you adjust the trussrod. I mean flat along the length of the fretboard.
So a tensioned neck may develop a slight S shape along its length, or maybe a ski jump at the end of the fretboard for example. These neck jigs are designed to be able to take that into account when levelling. The trussrod should be adjusted so that the fretboard is as flat as possible, they are not designed to level frets with any relief in the neck as you seem to imply in this video, and this has nothing to do with the player's setup preferences. If it was just a matter of simulating relief in the neck, we could just do that with the trussrod. If you haven't, I would encourage you to check out Stewmac's video about their jig, it shows the process very clearly.
I just wanted to clear that up, and hopefully we can all have a better understanding how these work and when and how they are supposed to be useful, or at least how they are supposed to be used. Whether or not they are worth using, as you said, it depends.
The answer s yes. That is why they make notched straight edges.
LOL. They also make notched straightedges so you can measure relief with a feeler gauge.
Only reason I’ve found that you need neck relief IMO is uneven frets or it’s set up for slide! Keep in mind neck relief throws the intonation out... Any change in the truss changes the scale of guitar. On some vintage guitars this is necessary for easy intonation
That's why u intonate as a last step to a setup.
Michael Hamerin absolutely.. Your average player that does their own string change and truss adj don’t have a clue as to why.. that your actually shortening and Lengthening the scale
Excellent video mate I also level the frets with the neck flat then string the guitar up with the gauge of strings that will be used let it sit for a few days play it check again play it some more seems to work very well. I like my neck to be flat even under string tension not every one does some players like a small amount of relief. Love your Chanel mate have good good one!
And the elephant in the room is-every guitar is totally different. The same kind of wood doesn’t mean it’s going to bow the same. There is no way you can get the frets exactly right. The strings are constantly stretching and the wood continues changing. A steel beam changes constantly. Pretty close is good enough.
If I'm unable to close the gap between the fretboard and notched straight edge, "dead straight" for me would just mean tightening the truss rod as much as I can before the straight edge rocks, right? I've noticed it's fulcrum is around the 12th fret, rather than the 8th fret where the truss rod should bend most.
I also want to know how fretboard leveling, using a radius beam, is decided with regards to fret replacements?
Trying to level under tension just adds another variable that is unnecessary to the set up. Different string gauge, different playing styles, different truss rod tension -- all affect the neck. Just level with the neck perfectly flat and then adjust from there. At least you know the frets are level.
@ConManliness No. The level of the frets is different from neck relief. You want the frets absolutely level when the neck is absolutely straight. Neck relief (created by the string tension) then allows space for the sting to vibrate. If you put relief in the neck and then level the frets -- well first of all you'd have to do it a LOT since neck relief changes over time/temperature/humidity/string gauge, and secondly you would (unnecessarily) remove a lot of fret material on the upper and lower frets just to get back to level. If you want your frets heights to provide zero relief when the neck is under tension, just tighten the truss rod and play with a straight neck. Hope I explained that effectively.
Being a luthier myself and having tried the many approaches to this job. I have also found lvl neck equals a quality fret lvl and polish
I totally agree with you on this great videos keep them coming.
Oh gosh! I love the way you explain things and the subjects you touch.
One thing I've never done is fret leveled a scalloped fretboard.
If you've done it, would you be so kind and share with us/me how you check the fretboard's flatness in this case?
Thanks. 😊
It's not possible to reliably test a scalloped fretboard for flatness that I am aware of. You can, however, use a precision straightedge to check how flat the frets are. Unfortunately, this approach has limited usefulness since the frets themselves probably aren't level yet. If the fretboard was glued to the neck, you can use a precision straightedge to check how flat the glue seam is. Again, this approach has limited usefulness since the scalloped surface may not be consistent from fret to fret.
Understring levelling beams (short, medium, long) make his a moot argument. They are low cost and don't require any time to set up, like a neck jig. As mentioned in this video, the undulations of some necks do not reveal themselves until placed under tension. In those odd instances, the apparently sacred-to-some practice of levelling with no strings and neck dead straight accomplishes nothing but lower frets. Also, using a medium-length understring levelling beam and a light hand will allow for any relief to be maintained. My comments are from the vantage point of someone repairing instruments of various ages & quality levels, not from that of a new builder.
When I first started learning about guitar setups from books back in the late 80's/early 90's there was even a lot of differing opinions back then on the best setup techniques. Some even suggested having fretboards with built-in relief. I like to just set the neck flat and level that way. It also depends on what condition the fretboard is in too.
Personally on relief, I think it depends on how the guitarist plays. If they're a light player, you can probably get away with a straight neck and no relief. If you're the type that likes to bash away (like many rhythm players), then a little relief to counter the string buzz is good. That's how I set all of mine up. But every guitarist is different.
I've found that acoustic guitars sound way fuller and richer with relief.
I find they sound fuller and richer when played by a fat person.
@@HighlineGuitars haha. I'll have to try suck in my gut next time. But seriously, have you ever recorded a guitar with a straight neck and then added relief and heard the tonal difference? I like electrics with a straight neck because they're punchy, acoustics with relief because they don't get choked out (thin)
Don't ever level frets with a forward neck bow (simulating the string tension) or you will create the hip in the middle of the neck by shaving the neck ends more. The dead straight neck or with a tiny back bow, if you can't make it straight all across the board, is the right way to do it.
Thanks for the info, but what to do if you can not get the neck perfectly flat and it has a pinch of warp in it and you do not want to level and refret the neck?
Make a new neck.
@@HighlineGuitars I would if I had all the tools, the materials and the knowhow … and if my friend had the patience to wait ;) This is my first real full guitar service.
I leveled the frets as much as I dared, recrowned and polished them. Now I’ll try to make a new nut, change the electronics, replace the strings, tune, intonate and play … hope he’ll be happy.
Love your videos, Thanks for sharing your hard earned knowledge. In the case of non professionals like myself, might a neck that’s not completely supported deflect slightly during leveling throwing the level job off slightly? Where a neck jig would hold it straight during leveling even if a but too much downward force we’re applied with the beam or file, resulting in a better job?
I like the KISS method. Keep it simple and take all the rocket science out of it. This is exactly what you are doing with your videos. Thank you for making these videos.
The purpose of relief is to allow space for the strings to vibrate freely along their entire length. Without it, the strings will buzz against the frets at the point on the neck where the first and second harmonics produce maximum displacement.
Only if the frets are tall and the action is low.
@@HighlineGuitars everybody seems to want the action as low as they can get it so this is always going to be the limiting factor
I definitely think leveling the frets on a level neck that is straight and flat, is the only way to go. The idea of leveling with any type of curve on the fret board is wacky. I've watched a few videos of these techniques, and came away speechless and confused... I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that it makes no sense.
As far as relief goes, the ideal situation for me is a dead flat neck. I believe you will always get your best action across the fretboard. Since the neck is wood, the only reason I would add a small amount of relief is to protect against front-bow, which could happen transporting the guitar to a gig, or even during the gig. It's just a little bit of insurance that it stays playable. A small change of temperature, the next thing you know it's choking out all over the place. Of course, if you like higher action, then this entire conversation / thread might not concern you.
Kind of like when tuners became widely available. Suddenly, intonation was measurable and of primary importance. Even though people had played, recorded, and made hits with out of tune guitars.
I like my neck with no relief. Here's why. If I set the relief about .010 +- before it plays well I will also have to induce fall away beyond the 12th fret. This,I believe, is because at mid neck the guitar is fingering in a trough, which rattles up the neck.
Chet fans know he liked .008 relief, but what is less known is he preferred a high action. If that's his recipe, so be it. For me, my recipe is no relief, low action, no fall away. Since I haven't made 60 years worth of wonderful recordings, I doubt anyone would ask for my preferences. The point is, players should find their preference rather than copy something they heard or read about without getting the whole story. Great video.
It just doesn't make sense to level frets with string tension, necks are going to move some bit, also what if you change string guage?
Another factor is won't you be taking more off the top of the frets near the nut because of relief?
I'm not a Luthier but this is brillaint knowledge and advice..
I like your detail explanation...my thought is level on flat neck the bow would not produce high frets.. biggest issue we have with buzz and such...and u can also adjust truss rod after strings if the bow is significant..
Thanks for giving me the value of your experience.
Thanks for the video; I found it very interesting and detailed. What about leveling the fretboard flat (without frets) with the truss rod engaged by a quarter of a turn? Does it make any sense? This way, the player would still have the opportunity to add some relief. Thanks.
Enjoyed that vid thanks. You probably already know this but Dan Erlewine also advocates for a flat neck with no relief. It makes a lot of sense to me personally so I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject.
That’s the best question, and I think yes totally flat when leveling. The truss rod can always be adjusted after stringing . Just my take! I’m a self taught Luthier that has apprenticed under a very strict builder that has forgotten more about stringed instruments than most ever know!
Re: general relief preference (as a player) I find I need some relief rather than a flat fretboard with a 9.5” or especially a 7.25” radius so that I can set the action medium-low and have whole step bends that don’t choke out. Could just be that my frets aren’t completely level though!
Just subbed your channel - have enjoyed your videos. Reading the comments, it seems there's plenty of agreement to this being done dead level. With that the case, it seems to me the Erlewine jig is unnecessary although, if you have a single-action truss rod, you do need some sort of jig to straighten the neck from a backbow if it has one after the strings are off and it is on it's back. You can make something simple with wood and threaded rod. If you have a double-action truss rod then you can use that as you have shown here - no jig necessary. Straight is straight. Whether you are in "playing position" or the guitar is on it's back, straight (by the notched straight edge) is straight. Whether the strings are on or the strings are off, straight is straight. In my opinion this has been way over-thought as you note in the video.
I would say, if you did want to level with slight relief in the neck, then the jig would help, but you could also use the notched straight edge with feeler gauges in the middle of the neck. Also, one commenter below noted that neck support during the leveling operation is important which I agree with - you could make an adjustable support for the middle of the neck fairly simply.
I made my own neck jig years ago and used it with great sucess. But I also found out years ago that it was a lot of unnecessary work. So I no longer use as a regular thing. However when using a jig the neck still needs to be flat/straight. You would not want to simulate relief in the neck and then sand it with a flat beam that would create a back bow once out of the jig. Also I started out using a dead flat neck on my first guitars but it's impossible to get a low, 4/64, string height without buzz without some relief in the neck. I don't use neck relief as a cop out for a bad set up. .080 as a rule. I do use the fret jig when doing compression fretting on old Martins that don't have adjustable truss rods. I agree a good fret job is miles ahead of the plek, not a fan.
and once in the jig. how is it flat/straight? as it is simulating string tension... is not the point of the jig to level th frets with simulated tension, therefor with a beam ,no matter what would happen if it was relased
@@dannyjonze, Hi Danny, the point is to flatten the neck out under string tension and then take the strings off and re-establish the flat neck with the head jack and the nut strap. Without changing the truss rod so when set the neck is still exerting the same stresses. Watch the Dan Erlewine video he explains it very well. Heck somewhere in my videos there's one showing how to use the jig.
Do you use radius blocks to level ?
Sometimes.
Well my Les Paul needs leveling and the word "level" is right in the title... so I'm going to go with a level Nick to begin with. Thank you for the video
Too many things in play at once to use a tension jig like bridge/saddle height , the nut itself ( that's the most important part how the nut is cut ) . Too deep of nut slots can create fret buzz that usually can't be fixed without upsizing string gauge . Another is environment. Fret level a guitar in winter in Alberta Canada here can get you really nice low action with minimal fret buzz because it so dry . Along comes spring and it's a fret buzzing rollercoaster price of crap . Best way to fret level a guitar is the way the customer wants it or if it's your guitar the way you like it . Unless the necks warped beyond repair it's usually a simple straight forward process that takes a few hours .
Level the frets when the neck is flat. Action is more a result of the relationship between the nut and the saddles. Relief can achieve a similar result but as you said, isn't the ideal way to go.
I know why I like a bit of relief so I can better and more deliberately dampen or mute strings more easily and open string to hammer on but not an exaggeration of relief just an extra 2 or 3 thousands but as for neck radius is switch between acoustic and electric so the 16” and 9.5” and the grab a mandolin lol mental
Music man are leveling the fretboard (not the frets) with some back bow tension on the trussrod.
That give a bit of adjustability to get a correct relief when you are using slinky strings.
Otherwize the neck is to rigid to bend even if you loosen the trussrod all the way.
always level flat
Re: general relief preference (as a player) I find I need some relief rather than a flat fretboard with a 9.5” or especially a 7.25” radius so that I can set the action medium-low and have whole step bends that don’t choke out. Could just be that my frets aren’t completely level though!
I agree 100 percent ur gonna tune,intonate&play it anyway. Each person can add there own Tweeks,bow,relief etc.
K.I.S.S.`...like he said it's a stick"..level thinking flat like that"😀.
You set the guitar for playing wiith a perfectly straight neck and more importantly parallel to horizontally straight neck pocket bottom, hence it makes perfect sense to level it straight. What about leveling a straigh but angled neck?
Same process.
@@HighlineGuitars In my limited experience the fall off if thats the term is needed for tilted necks. Or I’m doing something wrong. I guess you treat a strat neck the same as a les paul neck. Without fall off? Would you level the frets on a LP prior to gluing it in or after when it’s tilted?
@@3500ton Understand that from the saddles to the nut, the strings are straight. The angle of the neck doesn't matter. What matters is the string height over the upper frets. If the action is low, they'll buzz since the string's amplitude of oscillation is greatest over the upper frets. By adding fall off, you give the strings the room they need to vibrate without buzzing. The angle of the neck has no impact on this. I would never level the frets before gluing in the neck. If you level before, you're going to have to level again after if there's the slightest change in the neck's geometry.
@@HighlineGuitars Understood. Thank you very much on your precise explanation. It's a great help, like your entire channel. Like you explained, I like to set the neck as straight as possible (with the strings on) and address the action with the nut and bridge. Neck IMO should be straight, without relief if possible and it should be possible. I find the tension of the strings much less with a setup like that, therefore the playing is more comfortable. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge .
I like your straightforward approach to this problem. Sometimes YAGNI is the best approach (as in software development), "You Aren't Going to Need It".
Why to simulate the string tension when you can do understring leveling while there is the actual string tension?
I subscribed because of the “bumper music”…. Heavy riffage!! Calming voice!!! This guy is dead level on point!!! YessssSir!!!!
👍
Being a player as well as a builder, I prefer that a neck is as straight as possible during fret leveling, because that is also how I set up the guitars that I play. I have low, low action (1/16" under the high e at the nineteenth fret), super light strings (.008 to .038), do a lot of wide bending, and get no buzzing at all until the frets are quite worn down. My fret leveling tool is a 24" piece of hardrock maple with stick-it sandpaper, and after initial leveling along the length of the neck, all my sanding and polishing is done parallel to the frets. I feel that if I used this long tool to level frets on a bowed neck I would take more metal off the highest and lowest frets, leaving more metal on the frets in the middle. I can't see any advantage that would result from this. Thanks again for your well-considered, low key approach, the antithesis of some guys I will only refer to as "TTG."
I am 64 now and have been playing bass and guitar since 1972...but I have never done this leveling myself. So I bought a Notched Straightedge for bass...a Maxparts BF-AF16 Fret File...a crowning file I had already, also understring radius gauges - and look forward to it like a little boy! That it is best to do this with an absolutely straight neck, I strongly suspected and now got confirmation. Thanks a lot! 🙂
On the question of neck relief - I played with many "blues" guys in my day and their widely held belief is that the bow serves two purposes. 1) They prefer the higher action associated with that bow. 2) They believe that the bow creates a slightly "shorter" neck thus resulting in a slightly more "slack" string tension with the same tuning. I don't agree with either of those and prefer a dead flat board lol