Sounds logical if all the frets and the slots are exact then why wouldn't it be level it's like laying tile u don't sand down tile after u install it u install it flat to begin with
The guitar wood expands and contracts with its surroundings and the frets never stay completely level over time. It is just wood. There are a myriad of changes that can happen. What if when you adjust the truss rod, it doesn't bend exactly straight. For players that use extremely low action, it's quite easy to see where the issues occur. You can get a perfect fret level job done and years later the frets may not be perfectly level without even playing it. Add into the fact that when playing, fret wire is being worn away by the strings all of the time. In extreme cases you will see the dents on the wire but even then when doing bends you are wearing them away slowly over time. Going back to your tiling analogy, think of a new tile job in a brand new house, when the house settles over the next few years, is the tile job going to remain exact on a wood subfloor that has shifted?
+ - @@deans.4705 To get rid of BS with the surroundings, laquer for guitar, neck and fretboard were invented. Stainless steel frets were invented for resistance of wearing.
@@iridios6127 For some that live in a stable climate you may not notice. I live in Toronto where the summers are 85-95F and humid and the winters are 20-40F and dry. Lacquers won't help you. I can have a fret level done, not play it and 6 months later I can use a fret rocker and there will be frets misaligned. I keep the house between 40 and 50 percent humidity to combat this and it still happens. I keep them in cases when not played as well. Stainless steel frets will help with wear portion.
Even with CNC and plec machines there are very minute differences,,,to most of us,the cost of the machinery prohibits the luxury of not having to level frets,,for me ? My realistic target is having a 1 to 1,5mm flat spot so re crowning isn't a big deal.
Chris… I’m a guitar builder. Your videos are like the morning news to me. I replay them over and over just to focus myself. Really appreciate the time you put into making them. You’re hella cool brother. 🤜🏻💥🤛🏻
Interesting stuff but description should read "when building the guitar". I'd imagine that for most of us who came here we simply saw it and thought we could avoid fret-levelling on all our old guitars. Thanks for listening.
Specially in those cases you've mentioned.. If you realize the way for a perfect fretboard leveling (after quit the old frets set) then you'll get the chance of a charmly refret. Very important to get the perfect & exact radius in those frets before install them just in the same exact radius of your fixed fretboard. That's why 2 PERFECT jigs are needed (i've made almost all of my tools); one for for get the wood radius & the adjustable bender for the radius frets. Going a little far away right now i'm doing individual fret shapers of brass to get perfect fret radius in each fret of a compound radius. A press for frets is needed, two pieces of brass (concave & convex) with the exact radius of each fret, the whole fret set entirely bended in a little exceeded radius, then cuted, & a little bit of heat from a heat gun or solder station. Tryin' to modify the radius of an already cuted fret is not easy even with a press & the brass shapers, but the hot air do the trick, taking in count the necessary temperature for each possible fret alloy, avoiding deform the crown & tang of them.
I cant count the # of times I have tried to tell people this good to finally hear someone with the same ideas . if you start with a perfectly level fretboard and press the frets in properly you should have almost no fret work to do
@ john Mcdonnell : I have never tried to build a guitar and I thought about it I've also thought about having to we fret a guitar not that bringing a to a guy Would be a bad idea. They deserve the business and what they get paid. But this idea about banging in frets I just couldn't understand that it And I've never touched a single raw fret. Fretboard ever. Why not press them in .
Yes, thank you! I’ve noticed over the years that leveled frets wear much quicker.. many have argued with me but it has to be due to surface hardening from the manufacture proses... The biggest key to me is leveling the fretboard prior to re-fretting... Also I hammer frets with a RUBBER MALLET glueing the ends and clamping ONE AT A TIME... However, this is how I get perfect fret Jobs on my bench on a good day... individual results may vary
@ my jizz ureye : I completely agree with you and IC would give me because I'm saying the same thing and I have said this before watching of the videos. It's amazing when you come to think about listening to these guys and the things that you've thought about and wondered if they were correct or if anybody else has thought about them and either it validates what you been thinking or a kind of Downs it either or just a whole idea of thinking about what goes on is it is it really is good for the brain seriously it could also drive you crazy. This little idea that little idea what if this what if that try this try that This worked that didn't work lots of head games Even if you never tried them and never will. It's the sort of stuff taken keep you up at night Or just simply occupy thoughts and energy that you might need for something else or even if you just put it away and don't think about it it always nags you At some point. Mad scientist delirium ha ha ha ....
I will be doing my first custom rebuild of an 80's Fender Strat neck-through I scalloped, and was thinking this very same Concept a few days ago, while preparing to install the frets - Your Awareness confirms my Understanding! Truth in Common Sense! Nice video... 🌎✌🌿🎶
I am at the start of my guitar building career(5 guitars in) and this video answered/confirmed a lot of things I have noticed. On the most recent build I have used stainless frets with an arbor press and I have had the stellar results you talk about. I did do some beam leveling, but like you said, it was probably not necessary as I only noted 4 high spots across the entire board.
when i see your videos i can see all the passion you put in making this instruments. The way you talk about all the little details on making a perfect build on the first try is just amazing and inspiring to me. For me you're a true genius that loves making guitars and translates all his knowledge to a high quality craft. You're inspiring.
I'm not particularly skilled at fret leveling but I've used your technique here to refret multiple guitars and they have come out perfect every time. I've learned more from your videos than any other youtube channel.
I followed your advice and got great (to me) results. I went up and down the fret board with a rocker and tapped down any high frets until I couldn't detect anymore. I also adjusted the truss rod and installed a new bridge saddle. Even though I tapped the frets in with a hard plastic faced hammer the cheap old ($50 used - 20 years ago) Alvarez plays great - as good as a Taylor I recently acquired. Which was the goal. This is the second fret job that I have done on this same guitar - the first time (done pre youtube) I botched it 3 different ways including by grinding the tops all down. Nonetheless, I learned to play on it. You know what they say - try try again...
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your method. I have built guitars using similar methods with great success. I have learned that it is important to clean fret slots before installing frets to avoid high spots. Another advantage to your method is that it decreases the chance of accidentally damaging a beautiful guitar with a metal file.
Great vid, Chris. I combined your approach with Kent Everett's (Fret slots precisely milled to tang width except barbs, then hammer, and wick superglue) on my last build (I'm strictly an amateur) and had no problems with hammering nickel frets - 3 high spots in the whole board. Thanks very much.
Great video! You are 100% on-the-money here. I use a similar method where I first slot the board, then radius it with a router/jig set up. Next, it's sanded dead flat using a long radius block, then I pre-radius the fret wire using a bender and press them in with a matching caul. The key, in my experience, is to use plenty of double sided tape to secure the board to a very flat surface such as the top of my tablesaw and use a jig or rails to control the sanding block as it must remain perfectly aligned with the fingerboard. If the prep work is done accurately the frets will be so close to level that they only need a bit of polishing. Thanks for the vid!
This video will save me a ton of work! Doing my first build, making a replica of a fender j-bass and have learned a ton from your recent bass series, as well as from these one-offs. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!
I was fretting with stainless steel fret wire in the 2000 already and I was the only one in Australia I think...no fret level needed with my fretting jobs..those were amazing frets..less buzzing and less strings wearing ,opposite of what one would think.
As the neck is wider at the base than at the end, the frets at the base are longer. Given that the frets have a constant radius, but at the base are longer, this results in those fretends having more total bend. As such the fretboardedge at the base has to be thinner than the fretboard edge at the end.
Re-watching this video, it still makes sense. I always felt like we should focus a lot more energy into making the fretboard as perfect as possible before installing frets. When I first learned, it felt more like « well, we’ll level the frets anyway… ». So amen to a good fretboard prep, stainless steel and fretting press! Your explanation of the apparent fretboard thickness makes sense, and that’s not easy to explain without any visual cues. I have always been seduced by compound radiuses, but with stainless steel fretwire, I wonder how to radius it perfectly in an efficient manner for each fret. That must be quite headache to solve… Maybe in case you make quite a lot of instrument you can make batches of fretwire of each fret position.
I had a 1993 US standard Fender Blackie strat that was ruined because the shop owner recommended a fret level which was unnecessary since all it needed was simple set up, so he had some guy completely level the frets to half the height it originally came with, so really it felt very uncomfortable and worn out feel to the neck and I barely had it for a year till this day I still regretted to give permission for them to do that my first real good quality guitar
If they took half the fret height down, they either let an absolute newb do the job with way too much force on the beam. Or the frets were way out of level and it did need a level. Though i do hear you about aggressive sales pitches in shops pushing products you don't need that end up doing more harm than good.
Parker guitars are made this way but at higher level, they had graphite fretboard, perfectly leveled with perfect consistency, and then glued stainless steel frets :)
I have a specific question: So I've done only a few refrets in my life (7-8) - both on my own and on my friends' guitars. On one occasion I was refretting a very dense and hard maple neck. I should probably have widened the fret slots eversoslightly, but I thought removing rests of glue, sawdust/debris would be enough. What happened was that the new frets were perhaps sligly thicker at the "stem" and forced the neck into a slight backbow. Now I was lucky.. stringing her up with .10s countered this and I got a pretty astoundingly straight neck (with everso slightly let-off), because relaxing the trussrod had pretty much no effect from the set-off, as this neck was already pretty straight. I have a similar neck on a tele that is also naturally dead straight - even 35 years of string pull has not pulled the neck into much of a relief, which means I have no tension on the truss rod at all. It is now in need of new frets and I am afraid the same situation will occur but that this time I will end up with a backbow with no way of loosening the truss to acquire relief, and that 'natural' string pull wont be enough.. My question is: Is there a way to add relief to a neck that is already straight (with a loose trussrod)? How do I go about this? Any tricks? I am afraid to force the neck into relief and not sure how to do it? Are there special tools?
I've learned that if I were to have to replace the frets, I would use fretwire size 6105 regardless if I had to do a fret leveling. But, I'm just now learning about all of this. Baby steps.
Great tips. It all comes down to how well you build the guitar in first place doesn't it? The better the prep, the less work to get everything right. Best money I ever spent was on a Stewmac fret press jig, makes fretting and refretting so much quicker and more consistent instead of hammering away.
I am certainly no luthier, although I have levelled my frets with somewhat decent results, but I agree it's a pain in the neck, especially the recrowning and polishing. I'd certainly avoid it all if possible. Another point in favour of your argument, is if one likes tall frets. I do. I don't want the frets to get lower.
I'm with Chris in that I absolutely HATE having to level and crown guitars. I almost always just opt for a complete refret. It's an incredibly valuable skill to have, although I do understand not everyone will be capable of doing it. But the fact of the matter is that if you're building a guitar or installing new frets, there shouldn't be any reason to have to level. The key is preparation, obviously. Ensuring the board is level is really 90% of it. That means having good tools, using proper technique on the fingerboard (sanding a perfect radius), carving a nut according to the fret height (as opposed to the other way around), and never taking a hammer to the frets.
Fall away is tremendously under appreciated, especially on low radius boards, 9.5/7.25, yes you can get away without levelling (I've done it before to great results) but fallaway cannot be understated and I see no one mentioning it here
@@joesharpe7685 it's much more important on bolt on necks IMO. Most Gibsons and the like tend not to really need it as much. When I refret a Fender, I actually sand down the last few inches of the board a bit lower after leveling everything. It allows me to get away with not having to do fall away on the frets themselves. But if I'm doing a regular leveling and crowning, I almost always do some fall away unless I'm told not to. I know there can be issues with pitch and intonation if not done properly, but I personally think it's a good thing more often than not.
This makes completely sense for new neck builds, and it is quite logical that leveling and 'radiusing' the fretboard itself as close as possible prior to adding the frets will massively reduce the need to remove fret material in the finishing stages.. but.. ...for many seasoned amateurs, like myself, the job is not building a neck from scratch but rather refretting a vintage guitar.. and then other practical problems may add to the gig. I n my case i.e. I am refretting a 40 year old really nice neck.. it has lots of trussrod action left and it is remarkably straigth for it's age, but sports a really thin, beautiful, tight grained veneer rosewood fretboard, and this board is s l i g h t l y wavy between fret 14 and 19. Now I dont want to remove any wood from the board as it is thin as is, so I am pretty much left with the option of compensating for the subtle wavyness by removing fret material. To get this done I go for narrow&tall frets, and rather than doing adjustments fret to fret, I will do a very careful full fret level job, as I think this is the most practical solution. If I had a thicker slab rose (or ebony) fret board I would not hesitate to sand the board straight and touch up fret slots where needed, but I can think of other quite common situations where preparing a perfect radius/perfectly straight fretboard might not be a practical solution. A slightly wavy fretboard is not an uncommon condition for older guitars at all, and there may be several practical and good reasons for not attacking the fretboard with radius plane sander: Maybe you don't want to start a prosess that includes refinishing parts of the (if not the whole) neck. Stripping down and refinishing a one piece maple neck is very time consuming compared to a plain refret. Not all finishes allow for a partial refinish. Then there are historic pieces, pre-CBS stuff etc. where you neither want to remove laquer nor plane/sand away material.. perhaps you want the board to show the wear of the fingers etc.. If the neck has only minor waves/kinks, then compensation through fret removal might be the best option. There are of course ways to straighten out a neck, by using heat and special tools to force the wood, but this for experts and I wouldn't even let experts do it if a proper fretleveling and truss adjustment would be enough.. So I'm gonna disagree with an expert (which I rarely do as an amateur haha) and say "Leveling guitar frets are not seldomly completely OK and even your best option)..
Another reason for the edges of a fretboard to be thinner at the heel end (on a "store bought" neck at least) can be because the neck has a compound radius and due to lack of quality control when sanding the board, the builder fails to change the sanding block to a larger radius as he/she works his way down the neck. Sanding the heel end, which would have a larger radius, with the same block that was used in the middle or at the nut end where the radius is tighter, will remove considerably more material on the edges before it ever touches the center of the fretboard at the heel. However, I do completely agree with you that if frets are installed correctly in the beginning, very little and even zero leveling is entirely possible.
I have refretted all of my guitars myself with jumbo and super jumbo SS fretwire(jescar, preradiused to my boards).....apart from the fact that they are super slick, vibrato and bending wise, and ll most likely never need a fretjob at least in your lifetime,there is simply no difference in sound.......so basically its all pros no cons.
Back in the old days when I was building a couple of 100 guitars ( not 10 , 20 , 30 a couple of hundred , when i was a human guitsr factory lol . I love hearing Some these guitar builders , luthiers And the things that they do and the things they have done . If its not the arsenal of tools , cutom tweaked or straight out bought its the skill and the ease ehich they do things it is a huge accomplishment . The years of knowledge and diddling with this that the other different woods glues paints Additives metals measurements overall ideas ).
Thats how I levelled the frets on my first build , I didnt know about levelling in those days . It worked well also because the tension of the strings adds to the result . Also I found it best to work down the fret board ,ie towards the body from the head
Yeah it's a great workaround, for SS, because filing all the frets will take about 1 file as well. And you need expensive files, so. I'd have stainless steel fretwork done by a pro. I did my first fret leveling today. Worked out nice. Started on a cheap neck.
If you look at the heel of the neck from the "guitar" side and you look at the fretboard, just imagine cutting some material left and right to make it the same width as the nut. At those places where it's "nut wide", the fretboard is thick than at the edges of the heel. That's that thickness Chris is talking about.
I understand exactly what your saying, the better I got at refretting the less leveling I did, you have to have a very level or radius fretboard and the frets have to be pressed in hammering has too much recoil, also getting the frets ends to seat is crucial.
Exactly! I always said the same thing... Aren't you destroying your frets when sanding them? I also always thought that all guitar frets came level from the factory...NOT! Thank you for posting this.
I installed some EVO frets in between nickel silver and stainless on a vintage japanese guitar. I bought a drill press and the radius caul to push pre radiused wire into the slota, and like you said, it came out very level. Maybe it was beginners luck, but I decided to leave it since I didn't have a crowing file or beam yet. It actually plays better than my other two guitars. The only thing wrong with it was someone had added shims at the front and back of the neck pocket as well as using electrical tape folded. I experimented some more to get a good back angle and made my own shim out of a moth repelling cedar block. That guitar is now my favorite and easiest to play. So I can definitely vouch for what you say. My guitar isn't perfect, but came out better than my other three guitars that I do need slight tweaks here and there. I have a crowning file and will be getting a beam next month. Will be interesting to see how true to level the guitar really is. I'm sure it's not perfect, but it does allow a lower action than is actually comfortable without buz or dead spots.
Nice work! I'll be trying the press technique too now. I've always wondered about the use of neck shims (at least front-back tilt ones) - how is the adjustment different from changing the string height at the bridge?
All my new guitars have stainless frets with semi-hemispherical ends. I've gone so far as to sell all my old guitars or have them changed to stainless frets. I recently had my brand new Epiphone Firebird frets redone this way and it now feels better than my old Gibson Firebird. I will probably sell it now.
It was hard though, frets were already pretty low on this one. I did skim the wood a few times. At least they're level. And I polished and oiled the fingerboard after, so I don't think it will be a biggie
If you could monitor the pressure you're applying when you're inserting the fret wire into the fretboard you can pretty much as you say get the frets perfectly level. As long as the fretboard is level.
If we're speaking in terms of ultimate precision, surely the difference in grain of the fingerboard could mean some frets require more/less pressure for an equal seating however, ultimately with wood there's only so far you can mechanise and objectively measure it.
When I was first dealing with the Gentleman who started Musikraft about 25 yeas ago (when you could call and actually talk to the owner) he guaranteed me that his necks would be perfect with no need to do a fret leveling
Great info passed on to others,your experience's over the years can help other like minded folks save a bunch of time.(I,ve got two guitars needing re frets but just don't have the tools so we'll check out a local luthier and save botching a 63 st & 68 twelve fg230 which is almost unplayable) your confidence is inspiring my friend.....👍
If the fret wire is consistent and installed evenly then you should have perfectly level frets off the bat. Just got a warmoth neck with stainless steel frets 6100 frets and they’re perfectly level right out of the box.
I believe that a compound radius is the way to go for all necks these days. For me, it just seems more comfortable (my opinion). Going from handmade to CNC isn't easy, but with a little time it can be accomplished. Also, if done right the first time, little adjustments will be needed later.
But you have to bend the fretwire piece by piece when it changes in radius to perfectly fit the neck...at least with stainless steel. That's a lot of extra work and it's much easier to radius a larger piece than the small bits.
I did a refret that was near perfect, then when the neck was under string tension and countering truss rod tension, the neck had that typical strat bump at the 15th, 16th, 17th frets so I had to do a slight fret level...pmo. I was learning though on a cheap neck. I leveled and radiused the fretboard, and checked the frets as I pressed them, if a fret was not perfectly level then I put more muscle into the drill press.
I can relate to that, I probably refreted 20 or 25 guitars in my life, (and I'm hammering them in with a plastic end hammer). I got to the point now that after installing the frets all I have to do is literally just kiss the frets with my leveling beam and then without the need to recrown them, I just go directly to polishing the frets, the result is superb.
Wish I'd have bought my pre radiused wire in stainless steel.... Would using a fretwire pressing caul with my nickel wire help with reducing dents and therefore minimise the need to do a full levelling?
The video mentioned you would need to level frets after hammering in nickel silver frets. It was also mentioned that you don't need to level frets when using stainless steel frets and installing them with a press. Two different metals with different installation methods. If you have a press to install nickel silver frets you would avoid the problems you get from hammering them in. It wasn't clear from the video whether you would not have to level stainless steel frets if they had been hammered in.
Now I'm using my Cnc Machine which I paid a nice buck for. In the past of course I did this by hand Which took incredible focus attention ( agsin another story to go wow about )
I favor one piece Fender maple necks over RW. The 88 MIJ Strat I have around my neck has never given me problems and the frets are still beautiful. The luthier who refretted my 1957 P bass knows what he is doing and didn't level them.
I have a question: Wen u ur adjusting nut n saddle for string height does the fretboard radius matter. U need more room for low e string than u do for high e because low e vibrates more. I think? N its just bigger than the high e. So now there r two measurements to consider. Three different heights for the high n low e the radius n the string height. Unless the bottom of the strings all follow the radius n that makes the low e higher just by virtue of its size. N y on some of my guitars i always know where the strings r in my picking hand n other guitars like the one im working on now, im constantly having to find the string or miss the string im trying to hit. It has to be string spacing at the saddle or the radius of the strings off the saddle doesnt match the radius of the fretboard. I have a mitchell that i never have any problem picking the right string everytime like it plays itself type of thing. If u can shed some light o this problem or direct me to a video that explains this problem id appreciate it. Ty.
Hi good day. I have seen a big mistake very common in many builders, if you use a sanding block for a 12 inch radius fingerboard for example and put sandpaper between the block and your fingerboard you will not get a 12 inch radius fingerboard but 12 inches minus the thickness of the sandpaper in question. The same is true if you intend to use a fret press and use radius inserts the insert radius should be 12 inches plus the height of the fret so that it can be pressed evenly and seat properly on the fingerboard, the same philosophy should apply. to nuts and bridges. Sorry, my English comes from the translator.
You're way overthinking this. With the amount of adjustability in the depth of the nut slots and the bridge saddle radius, what you describe is not an issue.
Just replace the couple of frets with the most egregious divots and THEN level those to the rest. Then if you are anal, level ALL of those perfectly. That way, you don't level all the good frets down to the two low ones. ? The 2nd fret, 5th and 7th are notorious for getting little divots where the strings are due to people playing those bends with a lot of pressure. 5 and 8 on the B string (A minor pentatonic spots) etc. So, just yank those really bad frets, install new, level THOSE, done. or level them all and so what?
I'm waiting on a custom tele neck I had made. The luthier had problems installing ss frets so I'll be doing it, as well as adding a decal, string tree & nut. Guess I'll be checking radius, slots etc...
It sounds like he just didn’t want to be bothered by taking the little extra time needed to install ss frets. Someone that calls themselves a luthier should have no problem installing ss frets. I am certainly no luthier but I installed a set on my old guitar and it came out great. I just took my time with the job.
Great video and a new subscriber. Reading the comments, I have to say that what you're talking about is a new build. Vintage stuff is another beast to tame. As for those looking to go on the cheap, go to guitar world. Serious players are willing to PAY!
I'm skeptikal. There are just so many variables. Good old fret leveling helps the machine be very playable despite inevitable small errors and inconsistencies in building materials wheter fabricated or grown wild. If you look at materials science books and databases for things like tension or compression strength or specific gravity of a species of wood, There's always a range of values given.
Any issues with back bow after pressing the frets in?? Maybe the slots too tight and after pressing in 20 odd frets, the surface of the fingerboard is bowed up... and the truss rod can't correct, and the string tension probably won't either. What cutter do you use to slot the fingerboard?
What your trying to say at about 10:10 (re thickness of the fretboard after radiusing) is that the arc of the radius subtended by the edges of the fret board (before radiusing) is longer near that bridge than at the nut because of the difference in width, therefore the angle at which the radius intersects the edge of the fretboard (before radiusing is more acute. I think. That's clear right?
It's also one reason why some people like a compound radius (apart from easier bending / lower action) - the angle at the edge of the fretboard can remain the same, so muscle memory allegedly works better.
I just finished my first Stratocaster copy, and I agree. Make sure the fingerboard is right and smooth, and put the frets in right and leveling is unnecessary. I also actually pounded in nickel-silver frets, which is something you point out as a potential source of problems, but I found driving them with a wooden punch prevents beating them up.
I radius my fretboards very carefully (router jig followed by Stew Mac aluminum leveling beam), then use an arbor press with Stew Mac cauls to press in Stainless fretwire like you, but I when I lay a straightedge over the tops of the frets, I always have one or two lower frets. Unfortunately because they are too low instead of too high, I need to do a whole fret level. Maybe I'm just pressing too hard??
The reason of sanding the top of frets is to have at least small area to lay down your strings to make it stabilize. If the top of your frets is perfectly round you its hard to maintain the normal sound of the note
And that is wrong because when the top of the fret is flat, its point of contact with the string moves away from the exact center, which is precisely located with respect to the scale length. As a result, the notes played are slightly out of tune.
@@HighlineGuitars Hi I hope you are very well * Your videos are very useful, I have some questions that I would like you to help me, they are the following: 1) When leveling the fretboard of a les paul custom to a 12" radius before fretting, should the level beam go through the entire fretboard including the binding on the sides? or just the wood part? 2) When putting the stainless frets, do you think it is not necessary to apply CA glue in the grooves before putting the frets on? And only after place the frets, apply a little bit of glue to the corners, lifting the fretboard and something minimal flowing in the grooves? I look forward to your prompt response. Thank you.
Hi. To my way of thinking the fbd sides MUST be thicker at the nut end simply because these sides are closer to the middle of the fbd which is always thicker than the sides for any given fret along the fbd. Think about it. And so, if you try to make them equal to the heel thicknesses the fretboard will not be uniform. And that will bring up new problems in setting the action and fret buzzes. I leave room for mistakes in my thinking... but I would be very careful with this.
I remember reading about how Hamer was adamant that the fretboard was dead flat before fretting... I wondered why other companies didn't seen to subscribe to this same idea.
Hi, you said hammering nickel silver frets puts dents in them and then jumped to SS frets and an arbor press. What about using the arbor press to seat nickel silver frets?
I only have one question. When you are doing precision work on a fret board do you make allowances for the thickness of the bandage on the thumb of your left hand? I would like to try doing what you do but I need some OCD. Do you have any left that you could sell me? A 5 gallon pail full should be enough to get me started. LOL
There is a fundamental problem with full-width "Vintage Fender" width bridges, vintage neck pocket specs, more modern, bigger frets, and trying to put a full "hotdog" rounding on the ends. It's a geometrical problem that causes strings to fall off the edge, a deal-killer to me! The usual "solution" is to simply move to a Gibson-width bridge, but I sure would like it if you could BUY bodies/necks with a wider POCKET without an extra-wide nut. Both Warmoth and USA Custon will sell you wider necks, but you still have to narrow the nut end down, a P.I.T.A. since they're (usually) fretted. You won't get a discount ordering them un-. There are a large number of VERY expensive Fender copy guitars which simply have E strings falling off the edge of the fretboard.
Have you ever tried taking a piece of narrow brass bar and toffee hammer and hitting a fret at the exact high point on a fret? I have done this lots of times on annoying high spots and it works a treat.
I fully believe that to be GREAT, it's going to have to settle through a full seaonal change - or a year. A smart maker would include a coupon for a Plekking (or such) AFTER you've played it, decided on strings, done it's winter and summer...NO brand new guitar is FINISHED, really.
I wouldn't say never lvl a fret board again but deff minimize the amount of work but that's anything in life of you prep properly then you do less work later on but leveling and crowning will always be a part of it .
Totally true. Why do you need to remove materiel from your frets when they are brand new? To me, you need to level the frets when your strings are installed and played for few days and only in case you end up with some buzz in few places. Anyway this is a job for professionals not for DIY.
Leveling should not be a 'have-to-do' upon initial installation of fret wire. I view leveling as a maintenance process for getting a blank slate after the player has done his job. If the fret board is radiused properly, and each fret is radiused to match it at every point, all you need to do is take a fret rocker and check them and make adjustments as you go. I'll bet that anyone with a good eye isn't gonna need to do a whole lot from there. A few spots might require a bit of attention, a tap here or there, but all you should need to do is crown them (to preference, generally shape and get the ends to preference as well) and then polish them. I've done it this way many times and have never had a complaint.
Of course if you jazz it up (the fretboard)with 12 layers of binding, ala the Hofner guitars of the 50's, (yes, 12) then it ain't no thing. I'm wondering how to measure my frets to determine if I need a medium or a large fret crowner, if I go the diamond crowner route. Especially since the diamond crowner will probably last me years.
Another great video Chris, so you don't need any 'fall away' on the last frets, going towards the bridge? I really like your ideas and approach to a 'more modern guitar build' method. Many thanks again mate.
Fall away can be very effective if it is necessary. I really feel a guitar should be strung, the action set, tuned, intonated and played before you decide what actually needs to be done with the frets. There's no sense in leveling and/or generating fall away if it isn't necessary.
I'm working on making my first guitar and I was wondering why leveling frets on a new guitar was necessary. Are you saying it's because of inconsistencies in the shaping of the fingerboard (and possibly hammering softer frets, like nickel) and if you can get rid of those by using a CNC machine and stainless steel frets with an arbor press that there will be close to no levelling required? This makes sense to me.
Remember wood will move and is not all the same hardness through out the fretboard. A fret can be pressed in more in a soft area than a hard area. But diligence as he has explained will make a difference in your amount of work involved.
It would be nice not to have to level. The evidence on how well the neck was made and frets pressed in is how much off the top that is actually removed. How do you polish your frets - what grit sandpapers and product or method for putting the final polish? Thanks! Glen
I'm pretty sure that Kiesel doesn't level their frets either. Great video! I do my fretboards and frets the same way so maybe I'll see how the next one plays before I go ahead and level the whole board.
Very good info, great objective, etc... no question. Everything was going so well ...... until the last 60 seconds. When considering the broad spectrum of guitar neck mechanics - all the variations of original quality, of age, of consistency and history (previous repairs), etc, not to mention economics., to suggest that this emphasis on "board vs fret" obsoletes traditional fret setup and leveling is misleading at best, and a tad arrogant at worst. No question it should be the objective of new builds - with new necks - but suggesting good guitar techs weren't already aware of this relationship reveals someone who spends a lot more time on new builds instead of repairs. I apologize if I missed the disclaimers or nuances.
In theory, it shouldn't be. In reality, changes in humidity from where the guitar was made to where it was shipped can cause the wood to move and that can result in a high fret or two. That's why it's a good idea to be able to spot level your own frets or have luthier friend do it for you if you have guitars shipped to you.
Wow thats awesome. I’ve gotten to were I can start leveling with 400 grit and sometimes just kiss the tops with 600 and then polish. I never thought it was possible to not have to level the frets. Great vids, keep up the great work.
Sounds logical if all the frets and the slots are exact then why wouldn't it be level it's like laying tile u don't sand down tile after u install it u install it flat to begin with
The guitar wood expands and contracts with its surroundings and the frets never stay completely level over time. It is just wood. There are a myriad of changes that can happen. What if when you adjust the truss rod, it doesn't bend exactly straight. For players that use extremely low action, it's quite easy to see where the issues occur. You can get a perfect fret level job done and years later the frets may not be perfectly level without even playing it. Add into the fact that when playing, fret wire is being worn away by the strings all of the time. In extreme cases you will see the dents on the wire but even then when doing bends you are wearing them away slowly over time. Going back to your tiling analogy, think of a new tile job in a brand new house, when the house settles over the next few years, is the tile job going to remain exact on a wood subfloor that has shifted?
+ - @@deans.4705
To get rid of BS with the surroundings, laquer for guitar, neck and fretboard were invented. Stainless steel frets were invented for resistance of wearing.
@@iridios6127 For some that live in a stable climate you may not notice. I live in Toronto where the summers are 85-95F and humid and the winters are 20-40F and dry. Lacquers won't help you. I can have a fret level done, not play it and 6 months later I can use a fret rocker and there will be frets misaligned. I keep the house between 40 and 50 percent humidity to combat this
and it still happens. I keep them in cases when not played as well. Stainless steel frets will help with wear portion.
Even with CNC and plec machines there are very minute differences,,,to most of us,the cost of the machinery prohibits the luxury of not having to level frets,,for me ? My realistic target is having a 1 to 1,5mm flat spot so re crowning isn't a big deal.
Tile doesn't produce dead strings or fret buzz.....
Chris… I’m a guitar builder. Your videos are like the morning news to me. I replay them over and over just to focus myself. Really appreciate the time you put into making them. You’re hella cool brother. 🤜🏻💥🤛🏻
Interesting stuff but description should read "when building the guitar". I'd imagine that for most of us who came here we simply saw it and thought we could avoid fret-levelling on all our old guitars. Thanks for listening.
Specially in those cases you've mentioned.. If you realize the way for a perfect fretboard leveling (after quit the old frets set) then you'll get the chance of a charmly refret. Very important to get the perfect & exact radius in those frets before install them just in the same exact radius of your fixed fretboard. That's why 2 PERFECT jigs are needed (i've made almost all of my tools); one for for get the wood radius & the adjustable bender for the radius frets. Going a little far away right now i'm doing individual fret shapers of brass to get perfect fret radius in each fret of a compound radius. A press for frets is needed, two pieces of brass (concave & convex) with the exact radius of each fret, the whole fret set entirely bended in a little exceeded radius, then cuted, & a little bit of heat from a heat gun or solder station. Tryin' to modify the radius of an already cuted fret is not easy even with a press & the brass shapers, but the hot air do the trick, taking in count the necessary temperature for each possible fret alloy, avoiding deform the crown & tang of them.
FINALLY someone who takes the time and care to install frets as they should be installed.
Well done Sir 👍
I cant count the # of times I have tried to tell people this good to finally hear someone with the same ideas . if you start with a perfectly level fretboard and press the frets in properly you should have almost no fret work to do
@ john Mcdonnell : I have never tried to build a guitar and I thought about it I've also thought about having to we fret a guitar not that bringing a to a guy Would be a bad idea. They deserve the business and what they get paid. But this idea about banging in frets I just couldn't understand that it And I've never touched a single raw fret. Fretboard ever. Why not press them in .
Yes, thank you! I’ve noticed over the years that leveled frets wear much quicker.. many have argued with me but it has to be due to surface hardening from the manufacture proses...
The biggest key to me is leveling the fretboard prior to re-fretting... Also I hammer frets with a RUBBER MALLET glueing the ends and clamping ONE AT A TIME... However, this is how I get perfect fret Jobs on my bench on a good day... individual results may vary
I never thought id be so fascinated to listen to a guy talking about thickness of his nut.
Good stuff, great information.
@ my jizz ureye : I completely agree with you and IC would give me because I'm saying the same thing and I have said this before watching of the videos. It's amazing when you come to think about listening to these guys and the things that you've thought about and wondered if they were correct or if anybody else has thought about them and either it validates what you been thinking or a kind of Downs it either or just a whole idea of thinking about what goes on is it is it really is good for the brain seriously it could also drive you crazy. This little idea that little idea what if this what if that try this try that This worked that didn't work lots of head games Even if you never tried them and never will. It's the sort of stuff taken keep you up at night Or just simply occupy thoughts and energy that you might need for something else or even if you just put it away and don't think about it it always nags you At some point. Mad scientist delirium ha ha ha ....
I will be doing my first custom rebuild of an 80's Fender Strat neck-through I scalloped, and was thinking this very same Concept a few days ago, while preparing to install the frets - Your Awareness confirms my Understanding! Truth in Common Sense! Nice video...
🌎✌🌿🎶
I am at the start of my guitar building career(5 guitars in) and this video answered/confirmed a lot of things I have noticed. On the most recent build I have used stainless frets with an arbor press and I have had the stellar results you talk about. I did do some beam leveling, but like you said, it was probably not necessary as I only noted 4 high spots across the entire board.
when i see your videos i can see all the passion you put in making this instruments. The way you talk about all the little details on making a perfect build on the first try is just amazing and inspiring to me. For me you're a true genius that loves making guitars and translates all his knowledge to a high quality craft. You're inspiring.
I'm not particularly skilled at fret leveling but I've used your technique here to refret multiple guitars and they have come out perfect every time. I've learned more from your videos than any other youtube channel.
I followed your advice and got great (to me) results. I went up and down the fret board with a rocker and tapped down any high frets until I couldn't detect anymore. I also adjusted the truss rod and installed a new bridge saddle. Even though I tapped the frets in with a hard plastic faced hammer the cheap old ($50 used - 20 years ago) Alvarez plays great - as good as a Taylor I recently acquired. Which was the goal.
This is the second fret job that I have done on this same guitar - the first time (done pre youtube) I botched it 3 different ways including by grinding the tops all down. Nonetheless, I learned to play on it. You know what they say - try try again...
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your method. I have built guitars using similar methods with great success. I have learned that it is important to clean fret slots before installing frets to avoid high spots. Another advantage to your method is that it decreases the chance of accidentally damaging a beautiful guitar with a metal file.
Great vid, Chris. I combined your approach with Kent Everett's (Fret slots precisely milled to tang width except barbs, then hammer, and wick superglue) on my last build (I'm strictly an amateur) and had no problems with hammering nickel frets - 3 high spots in the whole board. Thanks very much.
Great video! You are 100% on-the-money here. I use a similar method where I first slot the board, then radius it with a router/jig set up. Next, it's sanded dead flat using a long radius block, then I pre-radius the fret wire using a bender and press them in with a matching caul.
The key, in my experience, is to use plenty of double sided tape to secure the board to a very flat surface such as the top of my tablesaw and use a jig or rails to control the sanding block as it must remain perfectly aligned with the fingerboard. If the prep work is done accurately the frets will be so close to level that they only need a bit of polishing.
Thanks for the vid!
This video will save me a ton of work! Doing my first build, making a replica of a fender j-bass and have learned a ton from your recent bass series, as well as from these one-offs. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!
Glad I could help!
I was fretting with stainless steel fret wire in the 2000 already and I was the only one in Australia I think...no fret level needed with my fretting jobs..those were amazing frets..less buzzing and less strings wearing ,opposite of what one would think.
Could you elaborate on how it doesn't cause string wear? This is interesting, I've heard the opposite, that they accelerate string death
As the neck is wider at the base than at the end, the frets at the base are longer. Given that the frets have a constant radius, but at the base are longer, this results in those fretends having more total bend. As such the fretboardedge at the base has to be thinner than the fretboard edge at the end.
Re-watching this video, it still makes sense. I always felt like we should focus a lot more energy into making the fretboard as perfect as possible before installing frets. When I first learned, it felt more like « well, we’ll level the frets anyway… ». So amen to a good fretboard prep, stainless steel and fretting press!
Your explanation of the apparent fretboard thickness makes sense, and that’s not easy to explain without any visual cues.
I have always been seduced by compound radiuses, but with stainless steel fretwire, I wonder how to radius it perfectly in an efficient manner for each fret. That must be quite headache to solve… Maybe in case you make quite a lot of instrument you can make batches of fretwire of each fret position.
I had a 1993 US standard Fender Blackie strat that was ruined because the shop owner recommended a fret level which was unnecessary since all it needed was simple set up, so he had some guy completely level the frets to half the height it originally came with, so really it felt very uncomfortable and worn out feel to the neck and I barely had it for a year till this day I still regretted to give permission for them to do that my first real good quality guitar
If they took half the fret height down, they either let an absolute newb do the job with way too much force on the beam. Or the frets were way out of level and it did need a level. Though i do hear you about aggressive sales pitches in shops pushing products you don't need that end up doing more harm than good.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. I am in awe of your generosity!
You are so welcome!
Parker guitars are made this way but at higher level, they had graphite fretboard, perfectly leveled with perfect consistency, and then glued stainless steel frets :)
I have a specific question: So I've done only a few refrets in my life (7-8) - both on my own and on my friends' guitars. On one occasion I was refretting a very dense and hard maple neck. I should probably have widened the fret slots eversoslightly, but I thought removing rests of glue, sawdust/debris would be enough. What happened was that the new frets were perhaps sligly thicker at the "stem" and forced the neck into a slight backbow.
Now I was lucky.. stringing her up with .10s countered this and I got a pretty astoundingly straight neck (with everso slightly let-off), because relaxing the trussrod had pretty much no effect from the set-off, as this neck was already pretty straight.
I have a similar neck on a tele that is also naturally dead straight - even 35 years of string pull has not pulled the neck into much of a relief, which means I have no tension on the truss rod at all. It is now in need of new frets and I am afraid the same situation will occur but that this time I will end up with a backbow with no way of loosening the truss to acquire relief, and that 'natural' string pull wont be enough..
My question is: Is there a way to add relief to a neck that is already straight (with a loose trussrod)? How do I go about this? Any tricks? I am afraid to force the neck into relief and not sure how to do it? Are there special tools?
No.
I've learned that if I were to have to replace the frets, I would use fretwire size 6105 regardless if I had to do a fret leveling. But, I'm just now learning about all of this. Baby steps.
Great tips. It all comes down to how well you build the guitar in first place doesn't it? The better the prep, the less work to get everything right. Best money I ever spent was on a Stewmac fret press jig, makes fretting and refretting so much quicker and more consistent instead of hammering away.
I am certainly no luthier, although I have levelled my frets with somewhat decent results, but I agree it's a pain in the neck, especially the recrowning and polishing. I'd certainly avoid it all if possible. Another point in favour of your argument, is if one likes tall frets. I do. I don't want the frets to get lower.
I'm with Chris in that I absolutely HATE having to level and crown guitars. I almost always just opt for a complete refret. It's an incredibly valuable skill to have, although I do understand not everyone will be capable of doing it. But the fact of the matter is that if you're building a guitar or installing new frets, there shouldn't be any reason to have to level. The key is preparation, obviously. Ensuring the board is level is really 90% of it. That means having good tools, using proper technique on the fingerboard (sanding a perfect radius), carving a nut according to the fret height (as opposed to the other way around), and never taking a hammer to the frets.
Fall away is tremendously under appreciated, especially on low radius boards, 9.5/7.25, yes you can get away without levelling (I've done it before to great results) but fallaway cannot be understated and I see no one mentioning it here
@@joesharpe7685 it's much more important on bolt on necks IMO. Most Gibsons and the like tend not to really need it as much. When I refret a Fender, I actually sand down the last few inches of the board a bit lower after leveling everything. It allows me to get away with not having to do fall away on the frets themselves. But if I'm doing a regular leveling and crowning, I almost always do some fall away unless I'm told not to. I know there can be issues with pitch and intonation if not done properly, but I personally think it's a good thing more often than not.
This makes completely sense for new neck builds, and it is quite logical that leveling and 'radiusing' the fretboard itself as close as possible prior to adding the frets will massively reduce the need to remove fret material in the finishing stages.. but..
...for many seasoned amateurs, like myself, the job is not building a neck from scratch but rather refretting a vintage guitar.. and then other practical problems may add to the gig.
I
n my case i.e. I am refretting a 40 year old really nice neck.. it has lots of trussrod action left and it is remarkably straigth for it's age, but sports a really thin, beautiful, tight grained veneer rosewood fretboard, and this board is s l i g h t l y wavy between fret 14 and 19. Now I dont want to remove any wood from the board as it is thin as is, so I am pretty much left with the option of compensating for the subtle wavyness by removing fret material. To get this done I go for narrow&tall frets, and rather than doing adjustments fret to fret, I will do a very careful full fret level job, as I think this is the most practical solution.
If I had a thicker slab rose (or ebony) fret board I would not hesitate to sand the board straight and touch up fret slots where needed, but I can think of other quite common situations where preparing a perfect radius/perfectly straight fretboard might not be a practical solution. A slightly wavy fretboard is not an uncommon condition for older guitars at all, and there may be several practical and good reasons for not attacking the fretboard with radius plane sander:
Maybe you don't want to start a prosess that includes refinishing parts of the (if not the whole) neck. Stripping down and refinishing a one piece maple neck is very time consuming compared to a plain refret. Not all finishes allow for a partial refinish.
Then there are historic pieces, pre-CBS stuff etc. where you neither want to remove laquer nor plane/sand away material.. perhaps you want the board to show the wear of the fingers etc.. If the neck has only minor waves/kinks, then compensation through fret removal might be the best option. There are of course ways to straighten out a neck, by using heat and special tools to force the wood, but this for experts and I wouldn't even let experts do it if a proper fretleveling and truss adjustment would be enough..
So I'm gonna disagree with an expert (which I rarely do as an amateur haha) and say "Leveling guitar frets are not seldomly completely OK and even your best option)..
My channel is devoted to building brand new guitars from scratch, not repairing or refinishing. That's a whole different animal!
@@HighlineGuitars That makes sense:) I really enjoy your content and am a happy new subscriber! Thanks for sharing!!
Another reason for the edges of a fretboard to be thinner at the heel end (on a "store bought" neck at least) can be because the neck has a compound radius and due to lack of quality control when sanding the board, the builder fails to change the sanding block to a larger radius as he/she works his way down the neck. Sanding the heel end, which would have a larger radius, with the same block that was used in the middle or at the nut end where the radius is tighter, will remove considerably more material on the edges before it ever touches the center of the fretboard at the heel. However, I do completely agree with you that if frets are installed correctly in the beginning, very little and even zero leveling is entirely possible.
I'm not sure I'm sold on stainless steel frets yet, but I like the way you present your ideas and information. Nice video!
I have refretted all of my guitars myself with jumbo and super jumbo SS fretwire(jescar, preradiused to my boards).....apart from the fact that they are super slick, vibrato and bending wise, and ll most likely never need a fretjob at least in your lifetime,there is simply no difference in sound.......so basically its all pros no cons.
Back in the old days when I was building a couple of 100 guitars ( not 10 , 20 , 30 a couple of hundred , when i was a human guitsr factory lol . I love hearing Some these guitar builders , luthiers And the things that they do and the things they have done . If its not the arsenal of tools , cutom tweaked or straight out bought its the skill and the ease ehich they do things it is a huge accomplishment . The years of knowledge and diddling with this that the other different woods glues paints Additives metals measurements overall ideas ).
Thats how I levelled the frets on my first build , I didnt know about levelling in those days . It worked well also because the tension of the strings adds to the result . Also I found it best to work down the fret board ,ie towards the body from the head
Yeah it's a great workaround, for SS, because filing all the frets will take about 1 file as well. And you need expensive files, so. I'd have stainless steel fretwork done by a pro.
I did my first fret leveling today. Worked out nice. Started on a cheap neck.
If you look at the heel of the neck from the "guitar" side and you look at the fretboard, just imagine cutting some material left and right to make it the same width as the nut. At those places where it's "nut wide", the fretboard is thick than at the edges of the heel. That's that thickness Chris is talking about.
I understand exactly what your saying, the better I got at refretting the less leveling I did, you have to have a very level or radius fretboard and the frets have to be pressed in hammering has too much recoil, also getting the frets ends to seat is crucial.
Exactly! I always said the same thing... Aren't you destroying your frets when sanding them? I also always thought that all guitar frets came level from the factory...NOT! Thank you for posting this.
I installed some EVO frets in between nickel silver and stainless on a vintage japanese guitar. I bought a drill press and the radius caul to push pre radiused wire into the slota, and like you said, it came out very level. Maybe it was beginners luck, but I decided to leave it since I didn't have a crowing file or beam yet.
It actually plays better than my other two guitars. The only thing wrong with it was someone had added shims at the front and back of the neck pocket as well as using electrical tape folded. I experimented some more to get a good back angle and made my own shim out of a moth repelling cedar block. That guitar is now my favorite and easiest to play.
So I can definitely vouch for what you say. My guitar isn't perfect, but came out better than my other three guitars that I do need slight tweaks here and there. I have a crowning file and will be getting a beam next month. Will be interesting to see how true to level the guitar really is. I'm sure it's not perfect, but it does allow a lower action than is actually comfortable without buz or dead spots.
Nice work! I'll be trying the press technique too now.
I've always wondered about the use of neck shims (at least front-back tilt ones) - how is the adjustment different from changing the string height at the bridge?
if u can get low action without buzz or dead notes, it seems perfect to me
All my new guitars have stainless frets with semi-hemispherical ends. I've gone so far as to sell all my old guitars or have them changed to stainless frets. I recently had my brand new Epiphone Firebird frets redone this way and it now feels better than my old Gibson Firebird. I will probably sell it now.
It was hard though, frets were already pretty low on this one. I did skim the wood a few times. At least they're level. And I polished and oiled the fingerboard after, so I don't think it will be a biggie
If you could monitor the pressure you're applying when you're inserting the fret wire into the fretboard you can pretty much as you say get the frets perfectly level. As long as the fretboard is level.
If we're speaking in terms of ultimate precision, surely the difference in grain of the fingerboard could mean some frets require more/less pressure for an equal seating however, ultimately with wood there's only so far you can mechanise and objectively measure it.
When I was first dealing with the Gentleman who started Musikraft about 25 yeas ago (when you could call and actually talk to the owner) he guaranteed me that his necks would be perfect with no need to do a fret leveling
Hallelujah brother. Finally a machinist approach. No more hammers please folks.
Great info passed on to others,your experience's over the years can help other like minded folks save a bunch of time.(I,ve got two guitars needing re frets but just don't have the tools so we'll check out a local luthier and save botching a 63 st & 68 twelve fg230 which is almost unplayable) your confidence is inspiring my friend.....👍
Great video. You touch on a good point. What qualifies as workmanship/craftsmanship versus just rework ( one of the biggest forms of waste).
If the fret wire is consistent and installed evenly then you should have perfectly level frets off the bat. Just got a warmoth neck with stainless steel frets 6100 frets and they’re perfectly level right out of the box.
I believe that a compound radius is the way to go for all necks these days. For me, it just seems more comfortable (my opinion). Going from handmade to CNC isn't easy, but with a little time it can be accomplished. Also, if done right the first time, little adjustments will be needed later.
But you have to bend the fretwire piece by piece when it changes in radius to perfectly fit the neck...at least with stainless steel.
That's a lot of extra work and it's much easier to radius a larger piece than the small bits.
Fascinating insights. Thank you for sharing.
I did a refret that was near perfect, then when the neck was under string tension and countering truss rod tension, the neck had that typical strat bump at the 15th, 16th, 17th frets so I had to do a slight fret level...pmo. I was learning though on a cheap neck. I leveled and radiused the fretboard, and checked the frets as I pressed them, if a fret was not perfectly level then I put more muscle into the drill press.
Thanks with all that guru tech I can now be on my way to becoming a rock star
thanks for such a real video on that subject...like to see those fret ends get dealt with.
yrulooknatme he already has a few older videos on how he does the ball end fret
is that the best way to finish stainless fret ends?
ty i'll checkemout
I can relate to that, I probably refreted 20 or 25 guitars in my life, (and I'm hammering them in with a plastic end hammer).
I got to the point now that after installing the frets all I have to do is literally just kiss the frets with my leveling beam and then without the need to recrown them, I just go directly to polishing the frets, the result is superb.
One more thing,, unlike many vloggers this fella really knows his shit... note @11:00 very true, took me years to figure this out
of course he knows his s**t, he's NOT a 'vlogger'. He's a pro who's making videos of his work
Luigi Pati ya ya ya
Wish I'd have bought my pre radiused wire in stainless steel.... Would using a fretwire pressing caul with my nickel wire help with reducing dents and therefore minimise the need to do a full levelling?
The video mentioned you would need to level frets after hammering in nickel silver frets. It was also mentioned that you don't need to level frets when using stainless steel frets and installing them with a press. Two different metals with different installation methods. If you have a press to install nickel silver frets you would avoid the problems you get from hammering them in. It wasn't clear from the video whether you would not have to level stainless steel frets if they had been hammered in.
Stainless is less prone to damage than regular fret wire.
Now I'm using my Cnc Machine which I paid a nice buck for. In the past of course I did this by hand Which took incredible focus attention ( agsin another story to go wow about )
I favor one piece Fender maple necks over RW. The 88 MIJ Strat I have around my neck has never given me problems and the frets are still beautiful. The luthier who refretted my 1957 P bass knows what he is doing and didn't level them.
Love your videos mate always very true and informative, can't wait for next video of the floyd rose build! Have a great day mate
I have a question: Wen u ur adjusting nut n saddle for string height does the fretboard radius matter. U need more room for low e string than u do for high e because low e vibrates more. I think? N its just bigger than the high e. So now there r two measurements to consider. Three different heights for the high n low e the radius n the string height. Unless the bottom of the strings all follow the radius n that makes the low e higher just by virtue of its size. N y on some of my guitars i always know where the strings r in my picking hand n other guitars like the one im working on now, im constantly having to find the string or miss the string im trying to hit. It has to be string spacing at the saddle or the radius of the strings off the saddle doesnt match the radius of the fretboard. I have a mitchell that i never have any problem picking the right string everytime like it plays itself type of thing. If u can shed some light o this problem or direct me to a video that explains this problem id appreciate it. Ty.
Hi good day.
I have seen a big mistake very common in many builders, if you use a sanding block for a 12 inch radius fingerboard for example and put sandpaper between the block and your fingerboard you will not get a 12 inch radius fingerboard but 12 inches minus the thickness of the sandpaper in question. The same is true if you intend to use a fret press and use radius inserts the insert radius should be 12 inches plus the height of the fret so that it can be pressed evenly and seat properly on the fingerboard, the same philosophy should apply. to nuts and bridges. Sorry, my English comes from the translator.
You're way overthinking this. With the amount of adjustability in the depth of the nut slots and the bridge saddle radius, what you describe is not an issue.
Great information and thinking outside the box, will be trying this out. Thank you!
Just replace the couple of frets with the most egregious divots and THEN level those to the rest. Then if you are anal, level ALL of those perfectly. That way, you don't level all the good frets down to the two low ones. ? The 2nd fret, 5th and 7th are notorious for getting little divots where the strings are due to people playing those bends with a lot of pressure. 5 and 8 on the B string (A minor pentatonic spots) etc. So, just yank those really bad frets, install new, level THOSE, done. or level them all and so what?
I'm waiting on a custom tele neck I had made. The luthier had problems installing ss frets so I'll be doing it, as well as adding a decal, string tree & nut. Guess I'll be checking radius, slots etc...
It sounds like he just didn’t want to be bothered by taking the little extra time needed to install ss frets. Someone that calls themselves a luthier should have no problem installing ss frets. I am certainly no luthier but I installed a set on my old guitar and it came out great. I just took my time with the job.
Great video and a new subscriber. Reading the comments, I have to say that what you're talking about is a new build. Vintage stuff is another beast to tame. As for those looking to go on the cheap, go to guitar world. Serious players are willing to PAY!
I'm skeptikal. There are just so many variables. Good old fret leveling helps the machine be very playable despite inevitable small errors and inconsistencies in building materials wheter fabricated or grown wild. If you look at materials science books and databases for things like tension or compression strength or specific gravity of a species of wood, There's always a range of values given.
Any issues with back bow after pressing the frets in?? Maybe the slots too tight and after pressing in 20 odd frets, the surface of the fingerboard is bowed up... and the truss rod can't correct, and the string tension probably won't either. What cutter do you use to slot the fingerboard?
I cut my slots slightly wide with a .024" 2 flute spiral upcut bit so there is no issue of backbow. The frets are glued in with water-thin CA glue.
@@HighlineGuitars Thanks for the reply... Precision Bits?? What feed rate do you use with that small of a bit? Just curious
@@joem6859 20ipm, .01" DOC. www.ebay.com/itm/5-73-0240-2-FLUTE-MICRO-CARBIDE-ENDMILLS-LONG-FLUTE/151008250845?hash=item2328cb0bdd:g:Y-4AAOxy7rdREJQT
@@HighlineGuitars thank you Chris, very nice of you to share with me
What your trying to say at about 10:10 (re thickness of the fretboard after radiusing) is that the arc of the radius subtended by the edges of the fret board (before radiusing) is longer near that bridge than at the nut because of the difference in width, therefore the angle at which the radius intersects the edge of the fretboard (before radiusing is more acute. I think. That's clear right?
Bingo!
It's also one reason why some people like a compound radius (apart from easier bending / lower action) - the angle at the edge of the fretboard can remain the same, so muscle memory allegedly works better.
Clear as mud!
I just finished my first Stratocaster copy, and I agree. Make sure the fingerboard is right and smooth, and put the frets in right and leveling is unnecessary. I also actually pounded in nickel-silver frets, which is something you point out as a potential source of problems, but I found driving them with a wooden punch prevents beating them up.
Hey. It's George McFly I always wondered how Marty played guitar so well
I love your videos. As a machinist I couldn’t figure out why people have to do so much leveling. I just got a feet arbor press. Love it. Thanks!
I radius my fretboards very carefully (router jig followed by Stew Mac aluminum leveling beam), then use an arbor press with Stew Mac cauls to press in Stainless fretwire like you, but I when I lay a straightedge over the tops of the frets, I always have one or two lower frets. Unfortunately because they are too low instead of too high, I need to do a whole fret level. Maybe I'm just pressing too hard??
The reason of sanding the top of frets is to have at least small area to lay down your strings to make it stabilize. If the top of your frets is perfectly round you its hard to maintain the normal sound of the note
And that is wrong because when the top of the fret is flat, its point of contact with the string moves away from the exact center, which is precisely located with respect to the scale length. As a result, the notes played are slightly out of tune.
@@HighlineGuitars interesting
@@HighlineGuitars
Hi I hope you are very well
* Your videos are very useful, I have some questions that I would like you to help me, they are the following:
1) When leveling the fretboard of a les paul custom to a 12" radius before fretting, should the level beam go through the entire fretboard including the binding on the sides? or just the wood part?
2) When putting the stainless frets, do you think it is not necessary to apply CA glue in the grooves before putting the frets on? And only after place the frets, apply a little bit of glue to the corners, lifting the fretboard and something minimal flowing in the grooves?
I look forward to your prompt response. Thank you.
Excellent tips, Chris, Thanks.
I see you're wearing a mic, which is good, but, FYI, the audio level is still very low.
I see it, but what I hear sounds like the camera mic. yes, normalise in your video edit program.
It hasn't been mastered by Bob Ludwig yet.
Thank you for this video! Very insightful! You are an inspiration!I learn a lot with your videos!
Hi. To my way of thinking the fbd sides MUST be thicker at the nut end simply because these sides are closer to the middle of the fbd which is always thicker than the sides for any given fret along the fbd. Think about it.
And so, if you try to make them equal to the heel thicknesses the fretboard will not be uniform. And that will bring up new problems in setting the action and fret buzzes.
I leave room for mistakes in my thinking... but I would be very careful with this.
I remember reading about how Hamer was adamant that the fretboard was dead flat before fretting... I wondered why other companies didn't seen to subscribe to this same idea.
Hi, you said hammering nickel silver frets puts dents in them and then jumped to SS frets and an arbor press. What about using the arbor press to seat nickel silver frets?
… to avoid dents
Goes without saying.
as always you're full of great tips man
I only have one question. When you are doing precision work on a fret board do you make allowances for the thickness of the bandage on the thumb of your left hand? I would like to try doing what you do but I need some OCD. Do you have any left that you could sell me? A 5 gallon pail full should be enough to get me started. LOL
You need at least a gallon to mess with frets any which way.
You rock! Thank you for all your videos.
There is a fundamental problem with full-width "Vintage Fender" width bridges, vintage neck pocket specs, more modern, bigger frets, and trying to put a full "hotdog" rounding on the ends. It's a geometrical problem that causes strings to fall off the edge, a deal-killer to me! The usual "solution" is to simply move to a Gibson-width bridge, but I sure would like it if you could BUY bodies/necks with a wider POCKET without an extra-wide nut. Both Warmoth and USA Custon will sell you wider necks, but you still have to narrow the nut end down, a P.I.T.A. since they're (usually) fretted. You won't get a discount ordering them un-. There are a large number of VERY expensive Fender copy guitars which simply have E strings falling off the edge of the fretboard.
Cool! Thanks! Everything made perfect sense!
Have you ever tried taking a piece of narrow brass bar and toffee hammer and hitting a fret at the exact high point on a fret? I have done this lots of times on annoying high spots and it works a treat.
Anyways.....nice talking to ya.
Compund radius lol that is sheer batsht lunacy.
I fully believe that to be GREAT, it's going to have to settle through a full seaonal change - or a year. A smart maker would include a coupon for a Plekking (or such) AFTER you've played it, decided on strings, done it's winter and summer...NO brand new guitar is FINISHED, really.
I wouldn't say never lvl a fret board again but deff minimize the amount of work but that's anything in life of you prep properly then you do less work later on but leveling and crowning will always be a part of it .
Totally true. Why do you need to remove materiel from your frets when they are brand new? To me, you need to level the frets when your strings are installed and played for few days and only in case you end up with some buzz in few places. Anyway this is a job for professionals not for DIY.
Nicely put
Leveling should not be a 'have-to-do' upon initial installation of fret wire. I view leveling as a maintenance process for getting a blank slate after the player has done his job. If the fret board is radiused properly, and each fret is radiused to match it at every point, all you need to do is take a fret rocker and check them and make adjustments as you go. I'll bet that anyone with a good eye isn't gonna need to do a whole lot from there. A few spots might require a bit of attention, a tap here or there, but all you should need to do is crown them (to preference, generally shape and get the ends to preference as well) and then polish them. I've done it this way many times and have never had a complaint.
how about a completely flat fretboard like a classical guitar? do they make those on electric guitars? i would like to try one to see how it feels.
Of course if you jazz it up (the fretboard)with 12 layers of binding, ala the Hofner guitars of the 50's, (yes, 12) then it ain't no thing. I'm wondering how to measure my frets to determine if I need a medium or a large fret crowner, if I go the diamond crowner route. Especially since the diamond crowner will probably last me years.
The only comment i have is you didn’t shows us how it all works. Maybe it’s in another video?
Another great video Chris, so you don't need any 'fall away' on the last frets, going towards the bridge? I really like your ideas and approach to a 'more modern guitar build' method. Many thanks again mate.
Fall away can be very effective if it is necessary. I really feel a guitar should be strung, the action set, tuned, intonated and played before you decide what actually needs to be done with the frets. There's no sense in leveling and/or generating fall away if it isn't necessary.
Thanks Chris, I thought your method seemed the best and logical way to go.
I'm working on making my first guitar and I was wondering why leveling frets on a new guitar was necessary. Are you saying it's because of inconsistencies in the shaping of the fingerboard (and possibly hammering softer frets, like nickel) and if you can get rid of those by using a CNC machine and stainless steel frets with an arbor press that there will be close to no levelling required? This makes sense to me.
Remember wood will move and is not all the same hardness through out the fretboard. A fret can be pressed in more in a soft area than a hard area. But diligence as he has explained will make a difference in your amount of work involved.
I see I'm not the only one who loves Cafe Bustelo.
It would be nice not to have to level. The evidence on how well the neck was made and frets pressed in is how much off the top that is actually removed. How do you polish your frets - what grit sandpapers and product or method for putting the final polish? Thanks! Glen
I'm pretty sure that Kiesel doesn't level their frets either. Great video! I do my fretboards and frets the same way so maybe I'll see how the next one plays before I go ahead and level the whole board.
The Keisel family is like this guy. Enormous attention to detail! Excellent instruments!
You could bind the fretboard to cover up the thickness discrepancy end to end and it looks good ? Thanks for the videos.
Very good info, great objective, etc... no question. Everything was going so well ...... until the last 60 seconds. When considering the broad spectrum of guitar neck mechanics - all the variations of original quality, of age, of consistency and history (previous repairs), etc, not to mention economics., to suggest that this emphasis on "board vs fret" obsoletes traditional fret setup and leveling is misleading at best, and a tad arrogant at worst. No question it should be the objective of new builds - with new necks - but suggesting good guitar techs weren't already aware of this relationship reveals someone who spends a lot more time on new builds instead of repairs. I apologize if I missed the disclaimers or nuances.
Your apology is accepted.
Is it acceptable for a $2300 guitar to have frets that aren't level out of the box?
In theory, it shouldn't be. In reality, changes in humidity from where the guitar was made to where it was shipped can cause the wood to move and that can result in a high fret or two. That's why it's a good idea to be able to spot level your own frets or have luthier friend do it for you if you have guitars shipped to you.
Wow thats awesome. I’ve gotten to were I can start leveling with 400 grit and sometimes just kiss the tops with 600 and then polish. I never thought it was possible to not have to level the frets. Great vids, keep up the great work.