COULD GUILLIMAN'S DARK SECRET BE CELEBRATED IF REVEALED?
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Hi all Rho here! Today we discuss the dark past of Roboute Guilliman, as we ask if there could be a twist in the tale... with the Imperium Secundus being celebrated if revealed?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
Games Workshop does not endorse or support this video. All views and opinions expressed in this video belong to Wolf Lord Rho and in no way reflect the views or opinions of Games Workshop Ltd.
All art used in this video belongs to the artists.
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This is literally one of the dumbest "secrets" in 40K. For the life of me, I cannot figure out what Roboute, Sanguinius, and the Lion did wrong. They tried to keep the Imperium's dream alive because they had no idea what was happening and the moment they determined that the Imperium still stood, they dropped everything and made their way back to Imperium as fast as possible.
Yes but all the primarchs were shit scared of daddy , he would have murdered them all
The Emperor himself didn't buy into the divinity thing back in the day. To him, Terra was simply the homeworld, not a "holy" place. Ultramar fit neatly into his plans for the Imperium, as Guilliman's expertise at administration had built the kind of efficient and orderly society that the Emperor wanted for all of mankind. But in the superstitious present, Guilliman could simply argue that at the time he had believed that it was inappropriate for him and his brothers to rule from Terra while the Emperor was enthroned there. So they tried to stabilize the Imperium from Macragge instead. That way if the Emperor got up from the Golden Throne unexpectedly he could simply resume his rule from Terra and Ultramar would follow, as it had already done before.
@Jon Doe And, arguably, what the Lion, Sanguinius and Roboute did may have saved the Imperium. It allowed those three legions to recover and reinforce themselves. The Red Tear was nearly destroyed when it go to Macragge and it was fully repaired by Macragge. After Calth, the 13th Legion was devastated. Roboute had the time to rebuild his legion to the point where the traitors (who had at least 4 legions) feared his arrival.
Where is the treason?
You have to remember that Big E found no fault in it. But this is 40k the reaction could be extreme to any direction. They could embrace it because they were demigod sons of the emperor or they might start a fucking war about it because it doesnt stay strictly within the imperial creed religion. And they all get branded heretic. 40k imperiumnis heavily indoctrinated religious cult that treats talks with xenos 9 out of 10 times to be heretical.
With all due respect, Bobby G conversed with the emperor upon his Re animation. The emperor knows everything that happened.Whether it's mentioned in the books or not
I have to agree, the question is how will the politicians and chapter masters react without the Emperor being able to speak directly to everyone to calm them down.
@@chrisleonard2066 agreed
In the Godblight novel when they're reliving that experience the Emperor calls Guilliman "traitor" or something to that effect as well as "failure", "last hope" etc(paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me rn) implying that The Emperor knew all about Imperium Secundus.
@@doomguy9049 i think the emps is still collecting his thoughts at that moment, it may be the effect of being fed a thousand psykers a day but when he finally collected his mind, he didn't say Guilliman is traitor, its quite the opposite actually. If anything, the word traitor may be directed at Mortarion because he knows Morty and other demon primarchs will peak through Guilliman's memory. Or he is just talking about primarchs in general whom some are betrayers.
Its mentioned ina book that the emperor even know of guillimans empire an the imperial secundus the emperor mentioned it an says he's doing what he was created to do he is doing what he should.
People seem to forget that Sang and the Lion were JUST AS guilty of the "heresy" of Imperium Secundus by the mere fact of them participating in it.
I dont understand why Gulliman gets all the blame. Especialy when even at the time he REFUSED to appoint himself as the Emperor Regent because of the implications such an action would have.
Secundus implies continuation not replacement. He did not name it Imperium Ultima. Its time to stop the absurd theories that clearly contradict the facts.
I think it's because you can't blamed dead people
While it is true sang and lion did participate in the second imperium. They are not there at the moment either because sang is dead and lion is in a coma. Also Guilleman coming back and did major changing in the imperium like killing off the high lord does show some concern about other trying to hold on there power in any way they could try.
I don't understand what's heretical on continuing theyr father's dream. When they thing Emperor is death and Terra too. And his actions after he found just a hint of theyr farher be alive. He emidietly disband thet a rush help the Emperor.
The real key is the notion of "Girlyman set up his Empire without helping Terra" I think bias, missing infomation and lack of context builds up to the point where he IS Guilty in there eye.
@@revenanlone8974 it's not about his true intentions, but the public view of his actions witout knowing their context. This is precisely how his political opponents might want to use it.
That won't stop his enemies in the Imperium from misconstruing the facts or trying to use it against him. They'll paint him as a power hungry traitor and open the door to chaos while he has to fight rebellions on a hundred Imperial worlds all trying to be more loyal to the Emperor because the Emperor doesn't seem capable of talking to mere mortals, therefore the only source anyone has is Guilliman's word, and they have personal motivations to not believe him and try to make themselves more important.
Chaos will help this happen, Nurgle's new #2 guy revealed all of this on purpose to get to these ends. He pushed a domino for a reason, and that reason is that Guilliman is the single largest threat to their current strength in reality, and if he keeps moving he might turn the tides back against them with the Emperor's power channelled through him.
Still unsure how this is a secret apart from the fact that it happened ten thousand years ago, all those in the sector would know, from the citizens, the military, the fleets, and of course the legions. Even if it was just a line or two in a report which could have survived. Also, the fact that the Ultra Marines and all the others immediately left for Terra proves that they remained loyal. To be honest to me it seems a non-secret and a meh but I guess the authors need hooks. I don't see the making of Secundas as a heresy more a logical military strategy but 40k is a weird place and politics is a nasty business.
The fact that the DARK ANGELS ... kept NO records of the events that happened there ... like bruh. OR no art from the Blood Angels showing Sang as Regent Emperor with The Lion and Gulliman as his advisors? CMOOOON
@@MrFallenone As far as i understand it. Imperium Secundus was never announced public. Hell, i dont think it went outside of even the three primarchs.
It was just an emergency idea, and the handfull of people that knew kept it as that. Just an idea.
I can totally see the High Lords or someone like that finding a scrap here and chaos whisper there or just "why didnt he INSTANTLY go to Terra" without the context we have, going on the warpath and ralling allies to outmanuver Girlyman.
@@bidu2331324 would Big E intervene like he did in Godblight? Sending a prophet to advocate for Guilliman?
After 10 000 years alot of information gets lost. This in particular was never shown to the wider public. Not ot mention in 40K biurocracy and ignorance reign supreme so I wouldn't bet on many records surviving to the current day.
The last time I was this early, Magnus' spine was still intact
Guilleman is a natural-born statesman. Statesmen gonna state.
But seriously, which other Primarch could have pulled this off? Russ? Hah!
Id Argue Rogal could have, Vulkan less so but he has quite the chance
@@oreo-postraphe Rogal is portrayed as being more likely to build a castle than rule from it, likewise even though Vulkan would love to sow and reap crops on a farmstead after defending it, he would be ill suited in the taxation and doling out of resources of such an enterprise.
Simple as.
Perty if he weren't a filthy traitor
As a Guillaman fan, I really hope that most embrace or at least understand the history of Imperium Secundus.
As a fan of the Lion, I hope the same. It was done to help ensure the continued survival of the Imperium rather than as an opposition to the actual Imperium
I'll simplify it for people -
Since Bobby G and his chapter were purposely cut off from the events of the horus heresy, the G man thought that horus had indeed won and started imperium secondus to continue the fight against horus. This was a display of loyalty to the emperor and his vision, not a renegade deviation from it.
They won't. That's not how the theme of the setting works. Remember the whole chain of events was set in motion by Chaos. They need to slow him down and keep him fighting delaying actions to keep the Imperium together so they can capitalize on their gains in reality, their new reach and power.
Guilliman’s enemies: Papa Smurf, Jonson and Sanguinius declared their own imperium when they thought Big E was dead. The regent is a heretic!
Everyone else: *crickets*
Guilliman: Azrael, ‘take care’ of this…
Azrael: Gladly, my lord
As it should be
Azrael: Asmodai. Help me make them repent.
@@HTWW if only Grimaldus was still around. He'd berate them into being suicidal, before smiting them anyway lol
@@HTWW And 2 days later, the subsector was scoured clean of all life.
Precisely... would be the smurfs, blood angels and dark angels and ALL of their successors, NOT to mention the Primaris Marines w/ Bobby G
Easy defense: (Nearly) everyone believes that the Emperor is a god. So obviously he knew about Ultramar all along. He never sought to suppress it, because it was designed in such a way that it fit in well with the Emperor's plans for humanity overall. Terra will certainly object to Mccragge becoming the Constantinople to their Rome. But what about the rest of humanity? It's not as if Terra has done such a great job protecting them. The Emperor may sit upon the Golden Throne there, but that could just raise the argument that Terra should be treated as sacred place, whereas Mccragge could be a secular political/military capital.
That would actually be an interesting idea that Terra could become the Imperium's religious and cultural center, while Macragge might form the political/economic/military capital. It certainly would lend itself well towards Roboute's desire to separate church and state affairs.
@@LordCommander-ui2fw - Exactly. Guilliman is tolerating the religious stuff because he has to. But if he can just let Terra be the Ecclesiarchy's playground and cite it as the sacred homeworld of Mankind where the Big E sits on his throne - great.
Guilliman himself has no great attachment to Terra and he would be happy to leave it as a planet-sized Vatican City to his father while he moves the secular government to Macragge where he can reimpose his meritocratic system of people getting key government jobs based on their ability to actually do them properly.
@@daniels7907 There is some historical precedence for this in real life-when Justinian I led the Byzantine armies to retake Italy, he didn’t move the capital of his empire back to Rome, but restored it as a cultural center while keeping Constantinople as the seat of Imperial power. This left an opening for the Catholic Church to claim the city later on as the Papal State, which laid down the first foundations for the modern Vatican City.
I reckon this will be used for a minor lore plotline, maybe a trilogy where some Lords of Terra try to foster a rebellion against Guelliman (again), and get wreckt (again)
Guilliman wasn't Emperor, Sanguineous was and Sanguineous died defending Terra and Big E. The idea that this will be used against Guilliman is just baffling to me.
While I appreciate a plotline build on something we the readers might not think is a big deal would be dumb, for Guillemans many, many political enemies in the Imperium, this would be confirmation of all their worst fears. Reported in-delicately, this could creat a political storm against Him.
And while he is a named Primarch and they are nameless nobody's, in universe they are more than capable of if not toppling Guilleman, than at the very least bringing the Imperium to a massive and sustained Crisis.
And the worst part; They are right! Guilleman is an extra-legal tyrant that unlawfully took power and is consolidating unlawfully power in his own hands. We might think him right in this, but it is objectively against the very imperial law, that he created 10.000 years ago.
They had already tried that, the deposed High Lords and political objectors bringing the Minotaurs, assembling a traitor Imperial Fleet with weapons trained on vital military installations of loyalists, scores of traitor guard, paid mercenaries, holding the Imperial Fists and the Phalanx and Terra at gunpoint, airing out Guilliman's own law created 10,000 years ago by he himself, stating it was an unlawful acquisition of power. Trying to force the Custodes, Imperial Fists, and Inquisition into siding with one or the other. Only for Guilliman to have already predicted such an outcome and planned alongside the Custodes and Grand Master of the Assassins, once he had gotten far enough away with the Indomitus Crusade to be unable to prevent it.
@@Doku71 The Hexarki in the Regent’s shadow was a minor tread, compared to the shit shown it would be for sitting high lords to oppose Guilleman in council legally. He wouldn't be able to just kill them.
Here’s what I see happening:
The Imperium Secundus comes to light.
Guilliman’s detractors try to use it as political leverage.
The Lion returns & immediately takes Guilliman’s side.
People get real cool about Imperium Secundus real quick.
The Imperium grinds ever onwards.
I will go with that, especially The Lions return !!!!!
The Imperium Secundus was necessary, Guilliman had to make sure to keep a stable base of goverment, in case Terra had fallen already.
And the fact that he desolved everything, right after he knew Terra stood fast, makes clear that he never intended to betray the Emperor.
But I'm just a grumpy old firstborn Ultramarine Veteran, guess that I'm a bit biased.
Courage and honour battle brother Rho.
If someone as skeptical and paranoid as Lion'el Johnson saw it for himself and approved it couldn't be treason IMO(unless THE LION was secretly a traitor all along and Luther was the loyalist!)
@@doomguy9049
Secundus revealed...
Guilliman thought the throne was lost and tried to maintain the Imperium...
Then discovering it wasn't, he dropped everything and battled across the galaxy to reach Terra...
That's hardly a damning indictment of treason or heresy. It literally just says he's willing to do whatever it takes to protect humanity.
The True Avenging Son!
Reactions to Guilliman in the Crusade and Heresy: He’s alright, pretty smart dude, definitely has his shit more organized than his brothers. Not a fan of his book though.
Reactions to Guilliman in the current timeline: ALL HAIL THE BIG G!!! DON’T YOU HURT MY BOY IN BLUE!!!
It’s laughable to think anyone in galaxy could out-politic , or use that history against him, Guilliman…… He could spin the unremembered empire however he wants…..
I'm sure The Ecclesiarch would try and use it against him, and fail!
The idea GW is going for is of a civil war of sorts, between supporters and opponents of Guilliman. The return of Lion would fit perfectly in that.
The most difficult part for Papa Smurf would be the reaction of the Custodes : it's flat out stated, several times, that Colquan, the Custodian representing the Captain-General in Guilliman's fleet, does not trust Guilliman at all.
It's strongly implied he's been chosen to stop (read : kill) Guilliman if it looks like he's trying to usurp his father's throne.
And if Guilliman loses the support of the Emperor's Companions, it's a massive blow to his legitimacy.
Idk, Coloquan seemed to have really warmed up to Guilliman in Godblight, being almost loyal to him. Plus, other custodes seem to have better opinion of him, like the main character in the Watchers of the Throne.
@@JonyTony2018 read the wolftime
@@JonyTony2018 In Dawn of Fire 2 - Gate of Bones, he's very much suspicious of Guilliman. Yes, it takes place years before Godblight but, if I'm not mistaken, it came out after. I think they might be course correcting there.
Anyway, even in Godblight, after fighting alongside Guilliman for years, if think Colquan says something like he's "starting to warm up" to him or something to that effect. Hardly a strong support.
And, yeah, the Custodian in Watcher of the Throne really likes Guillliman... but he's also shuned by other Custodes for that very reason, even by the Captain-General. He's viewed as Guilliman's "creature" by other Custodes.
I think if there's a civil war, even the Adeptus Custodes could be split.
Since the Emperor knows about Imperium secundus, wouldn't his Custodes have known as well? Aren't some of the Custodes old enough to remember the Heresy?
They also know no one else has a chance of fixing the Imperium.
Guilliman is the most crucial Primarch of all, his brothers knows this also even though they would never admit it - Dorn was even willing to relinquish his own command had his brother returned sooner. He is the embodiment of humanity, everyone should strive to be like him - every action performed by him, is the right one.
As a son of Dorn, I agree.
Nope sanguinas was as even roboute wanted him to be leader of imperium secundus also the lion even agreed to him being it and remember he was about to go to war with the ultramarines for it.
Ah shit I just wrote that and now he says it lol.
I honestly think that the Emperor would have been fine with learning about Imperium Secundus. I think he’s even be a little proud that Guilliman tried to keep the dream alive, and I think that’s what the emperor would have wanted if he’d died. He probably even wishes that it had happened since he’s literally half dead already, and the current imperium is almost not worth saving.
Let's play a game of Praise, Purge, or Pardon!
The Imperium = Praise
The Imperium Secundus = Purge
The Imperium Secundus when The Imperium was thought lost = Praise
The Imperium Secundus when The Imperium was found = Pardon
The Imperium Secundus continuing despite The Imperium being found = Purge
The Ecclesiarchy = Purge
The High Lords of Terra = Purge
I like all of your content, still my favorite 40k youtuber. However, I really miss the videos based on book excerpts where you would set the music and read, stopping to comment and then read again. You haven’t done one of those in a long time
I honestly dont see how this could be a bad thing. he thought his father was dead and they were all that was left and so tried to carry on his work. Im sure that Guilliman's enemies will spin it as he was power mad but the second the primarchs found out that the emperor was alive they disbanded their little empire and took off for earth. not the act of a traitor.
And Guilliman and The Lion named Sanguinius as The Emperor which shows it was not a power grab!
I think two things.
First - Guilliman Heresy,an interstellar separatist war within Imperium of Terra and Imperium of Ultramar.
Second - if that happens,that means one thing,Holy Terra has fallen,and the Imperium of Man is now on Ultramsr domain.
And third - two major factions.
Possible split between the Imperium and Astartes? That'd be a BAD day for those poor guardsman. Not just Space Marines, but you and your flashlight vs. a PRIMARCH?!. Oof size, maximum
@@PopeMetallicus this would be a very hard day
Yep, they can bicker all they want, but without Guilliman Terra would have already fallen during the events of Gathering Storm.
Dante with imperium nihilus:
What the fuck
It's not just Gulliman , the Lion and sanguineous and 3 legions
40k takes so much inspiration from Rome it's so pleasing to see.
This video, and a lot of the reactions to Imperium Secundus, come down on whether people would believe Guilliman was actually wrong to do what he did. And like 90 percent of us readers and players think Guilliman was at least justifiable in his actions given what he knew. So we keep trying to project that into the Imperium's populace as a whole. But that's not really the question here.
The big issue isn't whether Guilliman was actually wrong, but whether his actions can be spun by old guard high lord wannabes that are LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE to come at Roboute and start this civil war. Can they use it to power up their propaganda engines and twist the minds of people under their control to support personal bids for power? The Imperium Secundus revelations are just a match. The real problem is all the gasoline of human corruption that riddles the Imperium.
My view is that the inquisition would declare him heretic as a way to get rid of him, war would happen, but many the big G would send message to all saying that when he believed the expirer dead that he and other primarch did this to build and save the work of there father. Also do I hear the sound of the wolves rushing to his aid, Russ and G were linked in saving the empire
Inquisition still has their bottoms hurting since last time they went down on aestartes, I don't see them placing all their poker chips on the same bet again and rise a primark. More to the point, the sons of Russ still have an argument left untold since Bjorn stood up and made the children shake hands and play nice
Id like to see this when the lion returns, how ironic would it be that lion el Johnson backs up his brother in this before he starts carving up the upstarts
I mean this would affect the dark angels and blood angels. I would also point out that the emporer saved Guilleman at the end of the Godblight. I think we will find that the Historian will confront Guilleman and then the book will be covered up.
The Big E has a brotherly reunion lined up, little Timmy’s everywhere going crazy
Strategic contingency not a heresy and whilst propaganda may say otherwise Roboute can also use propaganda.
As we found out in "Wolftime" at the very least the Top Command of the Custodian Guard knows about it fully.
HAIL GUILLIMEN! HAIL IMPERIUM TERTIUS!Creating Secundus was the only logical choice for The Big G with the info he had at the time. He and his brother's should have been applauded for providing social order in the face of Chaos. They shouldn't have kept it a secret, cuz now Secundus has the appearance of impropriety, will be taken out of context and used against him. THE BIG E IS AN ABSENTEE LANDLORD! That's right I said it. Y'all heard it!
To quote Gabriel Seth when it comes to Robby G, "He would make us all Ultra Marines in red armor!" & "If he is regent, why not Emperor?" - Devastation of Baal
Guilliman protected and governed what he could, when he could. When he found out he could re-unite with the Imperium and support the Emperor, he did. I see no shame.
I don’t see the problem with establishment of the Imperium Secundus in the first place. It was emergency actions due to disastrous events and lack of information. They was halted as soon as things were made clear. Even two of his brothers accepted the necessity of preserving Imperium. So what’s the problem?
Seems like it is time Lion el'Jonson came back and that the two brothers once again braced themselves against all accusations - maybe it is time that the Lion actually went to the fore as the "warmaster" he could and maybe should have been in the first place...
The Emperor and Malcador knew, the Five Hundred worlds knew. Not much of a secret.
Would make sense that people look back into Guillimans social media post and pull some BS up on him. The lef.... I mean Chaos is always pulling stuff like that.
He could once more use Sanguineous to passive everyone , Sanguineous aKa the second most worshiped figure in the imperium if they framed the empire as a restructuring of resources for the army of martyrdom his brother “led” it could work an imperium that was always Kent to sacrifice itself for the grater humanity. It worked the first time so in theory using the angelic figure gathering an army of sacrifice to take in the horde that beset terra itself should win most everyone over. Hell a book going into his guilt about continued usege of his sacrificed brother as a tool would be cool you could even have the parallel of the emperor and himself using the other primarchs as tool and not caring about then be a key aspect in the book itself
As with all Rho's videos, just watch it in 1.25 playback speed.
Did the Eldar help bring back RG to make bulwark with which to hide behind and regroup?
Imperial secundus was a brace and noble act. I loved that he did it. There was nothing treacherous in planning to fight to the end
High Lords: Which side are the custodes on?
Custodes: Guillemans
High Lords: all hail Guilleman then I suppose
😅
In all seriousness, it all seems the perfect setting a civil war is coming, literally two imperium's
And I think it will be able to happen because Guilleman will be over dealing with Nihilus massively sidetracked by understanding the whole Fallen part. While the Custodes would have kept an eye on the high Lords, I think they will be distracted by the Genestealers. At which point the High Lords will take their moment to try and take Terra leading to utter chaos on the homeworld.
Eh high lords already rebelled and got murdered at this point only loyal ones to guiliman are in power if they rebel again its just nonsense
Reminder that Tallaran has a splinter cult worshipping Ciaphas Cain as a saint.
Honestly I think 40k should have a rule 34-1.
If it exists, someone is worshipping it.
we can start that right now
Gulliman: I was my idea, I will take responsible for it
Sanguinius: I stepped up as the regent, if you disagree with him you will have to disagree with me.
Lionel: If anyone disagree I will call the security. And by security, I mean Amodai will make you repent.
Lol. But seriously, now that the Lion has returned, I can totally see this as a plot point for Guiliman’s arc though. After he delegates his Lord Commander title to Lion so he can focus on administration of the Imperium (by using his ultra excel instinct), and do some reforms that will no doubt be opposed by lots of people (high lords, governors…), during that time, if the Imperium
Secundus was revealed, I can see this become a problem that he cannot ignore
If/when imperium secundus comes up in 40k, I want another watchers of the throne book tackling this issue and the politics that arise from it
Could a powerplay in the imperium against Guilliman be remotely successful? Also is it possible for him to be elevated to godhood due to widespread worship of him?
A few years of partial worship wouldn’t grant that much power in the warp.. considering the entire human race has been worshiping the emperor for 10,000 years and he just recently reached those levels.
Little food for thought:
If Rob hadn’t circled the wagons and saved what he could, most folks wouldn’t be around to judge him.
Ain’t but one guy who’s forcing, not asking, forcing improvement across the Imperium. Because it needs to happen and Rob knows it. Plus, Sandy and Lion are just as culpable in the Secundus gambit. No move is still a move. And only Rob had the Macragges to make his own. And it wasn’t even about him. He gained nothing from it.
Yes, the fact Gman and the Lion chose Sanguinius to become Emperor shows they had the Imperium in mind and it wasn't just a power grab!
😲 - "Oh no... Robot Gildoman buried his secrets deep inside Muh Crag!"
😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
And IM AN SAYING THIS ! AGAING ! .......SING MY CHEST HA HA HA all jokes aside ...please ...brother keep doing what you do ....sing though my ears ...and pierce my heart with out you Thier is no lore ...no story .........not legend's worth telling ......I'd rather listen to the crisp ebis of nothing than a day without my Primark .....#LotsOfLoveKeepItUpMyWolf
Celebrated?!?! Are you fucking insane. In the middle of the Horus Heresy another group of sons declared an independent empire with Sanguinius being the new Emperor. Lmao. How in the fuck would that EVER be celebrated in 40k? The Custodians are going to decapitate him when that historian puts it together.
Setting up a backup Imperium wasn't heresy. But questioning the immortality of the God Emperor of man is super heresy
Without Guilliman's return, Imperium would've been doomed earlier than it would have been. Lords of Terra ain't sh*t on that Invasion of All chaos plus Chaos tainted Primarch traitors.
The Emperor supports what's necessary. Back to progress, not regress
Even when I read the book about Imperial Secundus, I never figured out why it was such a "dark" secret. Kinda felt like the authors were just trying to make Guilliman appear more edgy than the straight-laced boy scout he appeared to be. Even now, I don't get why it's such a big deal. For all he and the other Primarchs knew, Terra had fallen. So form a new Imperium on paper and continue the fight. What's the problem?
Given that the Lion was party to the creation of Imperium: Part II would that help/hurt Bobby G with any pushback? Because the Lion wouldn't give a fuuuuuucccckkk what anybody, including his bro thought, so he would probably just tell everyone to fall in line or get a beat down.
Knowing GW’s rather biased protection of Guilliman (fucking Primaris) he could go to Terra, kick the Emperor off the Golden Throne, grind up his bones, snort them and proclaim himself God, and everyone would think it genius. Must be nice being the favorite.
Its funny that for a character such as Guilliman who is meant to embody 'the pen is mightier than the sword' adage, that it's his own writings that could prove to be his downfall.
You have to feel sorry for Hawk boy.
Lion El Johnson, & Robute nearly full legions, Sanginius decimated legion
Lion & Robute bro your the new emperor
Sangiunus ffs it’s the bloody wings isn’t it
I have no doubt in my mind that guilliman was pure and honest with his intentions of making secundus. However in a world of power and politics, any weakness and/or suggestion of something fishy would be leveraged to full effect by people who dislike him. Talk about getting canceled for something you did 10.000 years ago... Thats cancel culture to the most extreme🤣🤣🤣
As soon as Konrad Cruze confirmed that the Emperor was alive and on Terra Guilliman the Lion and Sanguinus all embarked on fleets and made for Terra hardly a secret because Ultramar was 500 worlds I think you make way too much of this and way too little of the Lions dishonesty . Guilliam even told the Lion he couldn't rule Imperium Secondus as he'd be as bad as Horus but he sure didn't want Johnston's lying ass in charge. Also before Fulcrum killed Guilliman he was a high lord of terra himself and the loyalist primarchs didn't challenge it . Even the Sigillite guessed that Roubete was somewhere building a Empire it's his gift or oneness with the Emperor himself
Personal suspicion? Assuming that this isn't GW deciding to take a big, massive crap on the lore and fanbase from the roof of their HQ?
I don't think it'll change many opinions in the current 40K present, because anybody that didn't like Guilliman before now has even more reason to dislike him. Those that liked him now have even more reasons to like him.
Video Idea: Did the emperor kill sanquinious?
So if you look at the artwork for horus V the emperor and sanguinious dying on the ground, something has always stuck out to me. Sanquiniouss wounds. He's armor doesn't have the dmg that one would have from a power claw or a thunderhammer. His wound replicates a puncture wound more Akin to a sword thrust. And the way the metal is bending it appears to have been thrusted through his back. A video on this and maybe talking about why WOULD the emperor have done this would be very interesting
Emperium Secondus being used against Guilliman sounds stupid ngl. If WH40K is devoid of any common sense aside from Guilliman then that may be the case.
What if The Nighthaunter tells The inquisition about Imperium secundus?
The way I see it is that it's unlikely for only half of the Primarchs to have been touched by Chaos enough turn from the Emperor, only that it was only half who had been touched ENOUGH. ALL the Primarchs imo had some touch of Chaos that Big E stole from the Gods to make them and Gulliman seems almost like he'd be touched by Slaanesh for some reason
Bobby G has already created a new nearly independent empire of man. When he made Dante Regent of Imperium Nihilus, he effectively split the empire politically in two to match the rift' phisical separation. It is possible he seized power to separate from the dying Terra based Empire. Meeting his father could have been the proverbial last drop. But I don't think he will go that route. A civil war within the Imperium again would trully shatter it, they could not fight the aliens or chaos if they are also in open warfare against themselves like during the Herresy.
As an Eldar fan I don't have much love for the imperium. I would much prefer an alliance between the Eldar and the imperium. Both factions could benefit each other greatly. However my opinion on today's topic is that anyone who has seen what Guilliman has done since waking up, the perils he has faced and the battles he has fought to his dying breath all in the name of the imperium would be foolish and myopic to call Guilliman some kind of heretic or usurper. If Guilliman is judged harshly for the imperium secondus, the entire imperium deserves to be destroyed by its own hand (civil war).
The only way the revelation of ImpSec could truly hurt G with the Imperium at-large is if Matthieu turns against him. But given how the frater feels about RG, that seems unlikely.
Wow...
I need to get my hearing checked.
I initially heard the Frog World, not Throne World.
Please forgive the heresy.
Hey all, my theory of where the story is going is that, most of the non-compliant chapters to the codex astartes are in the imperium nhilius so there will end up being two competing human empires.
Since gw is trying to sell 40k in China and the communist gov doesnt like mystical shite like demons gods etc, chaos is being slowly memory wholed and we get "traitor forces" such as cultists being removed and traitor guard being brought in next year with that leak from heavy bolter being accurate so far.
So guilliman rebuilds the imperium as the imperium secundus and either dante or the lion will probs proclaim, the imperium nova or something and the to sides will war over the "border zone" of the retreating warp storm (warp storms will still be a thing but more practical instead of evil mystical etc)
I've never understood the conjecture around Imperium Secundus. It was objectively the best thing to do at the time with the information they had.
Could Guilliman not end all this by finding evidence of the high lords' will to further their own end as well as the plotting and scheming against him...his talk with the emperor (that he was allowed to be there due to the grace of the emps himself) will help solidify his position.
This would be a minor case against all he has done with his years of loyalty ....keeping his fathers' ideals alive and appointing sanguinius as the figurehead discounts all argument ...he then came to terra and helped with the eradication of chaos forces .....that is a loyal move, after his imperium secundus was made and broken.......
Against a primarchs acuity ...i cant realistically see anyone else winning against him .....and what if they win ....would guilliman and all of his forces be imprisioned? it certainly wouldnt help if that is so or if there is another civil war especially with the spread of chaos........you could argue those who are opposing him are actually doing the work of chaos, trying to weaken their position.
Look, there is only one loyal son of the Imperium. One who didn't have secrets, grudges, mutation, or emotional baggage that manifested itself to the forefront. Primarch Progenitor, to your glory and the glory of him on Earth!
Well, have the Imperium split into two parts, Ultramar and Solar. That would make sense lore wise in regards to a decaying Imperium and fit into the theme of unreasonable imperial dogmatism wasting ressources on internecine wars.
Guliman is a heretic, he willingly brakes the codex astartes which he wrote himself (no one should command more than 1k marines).
Well it was the right call. Simce dorn failed an the imperial forces where going to lose its litterly only because the ultras an the 1st where on the way other wise the traitors win an ultimately crush them.
Its the smart move an the right move. The reason guilliman was able to successfully win the scouring is because he had the 500 world's back an operating.
I never saw this as a problem. If the Lion signed off on it, the Emperor would as well, as seen in the novel Vengeful Spirit.
Come over to the Battletech verse. So far the buisness doesn't ignore fans and the lore is better! They even sell plastic and books way cheaper then Hyposhop.
Lionel already showed up to check up on g man once already to make sure he wasn't trying to start a new empire right? I could see him being the next primarch to come back and fuck up alot of what guilleman has done. Seems like a good way to keep the story goin
Anyone think Abbadon might unknowingly be under the control of the Emperor
I give thanks to wolf lord rho . Otherwise we would be stuck with shillrak and his ronald mcdonald marines .
Admit it or not we all know holy terra is already been lost and corrupted long ago and only by the emperor's presence that it remained so. Boby G did nothing wrong on making ultramar as imperium secondus with sanguinius and lion as contingent, so if you want to charge boby G and the ultra marines with heresy then blood angels and dark angels are guilty as well.
If gulliman declared a 2nd imperium secundus then the wiff of heresy would be strong
No!
All the hate directed at the Dark Angels because they "Sat on the Fence to see who won". Now just remember that Robute did not even wait to see who won he Assumed.
We are not talking about Rowboat's Big Tiddy Eldar GF?
I trust RG
If they do follow this story line then it cements with me that they will bring Russ back next before the lion. The lion could clear up the issue since he was there and part of it, Russ had nothing to do with it and they will want to story tell it for it while so bringing back the lion would limit how long they can drag out that story line
The fact demons wanted dude to find that book means they know nothing good will come of it being known. There will be strife from it.
A rebellion surrounding the unremembered empire would be a great time to bring back the lion considering how they were both there to crown Sanguinus as emperor
They need to bring back the Lion already. All signs are pointing to him.
The imperium secundus was just a backup plan in case the wider imperium had fallen.
i can here from listening gulliman's lament and going," did the imperium find out he has a death korp mind set?"
if i was in G man shoes at that time im also think the same they got horus the perfect charismatic leader & perty the big brain dude..
For Russ and the Allfather!! Papa Smurf has my vote!
Maybe the fact the beacon called the tyranids will come out...
Wait there were *three* primarchs & their legions involved in this, how could be a secret?
I think it will make cool political issues for Guilliman if done right.
Well the plot twist is that imperium secundus is only the 4th reich
Does anyone even care that they tried to make a successor Imperium?