I've long known that I was much more expressive and outgoing as a child and that I learned to tamp that down due to bullying at school. I went from talkative to silent after going into grade school. After hearing you share your experience, I suddenly realized just how much of it also came from my parents and how damaging that was. Which is surprising to feel as a revelation, given the years of therapy I've done trying to untangle the trauma they dealt me. Guess I blocked this particular thing out and this helped me feel it again. Thank you. I'm sorry you were taught to hide your feelings that way too. Thank you for sharing about it and helping myself and others feel more seen and understood about it.
Yes, yes, yes!! Add to this the neurotypical penchant for deliberately putting on an expression contrary to how they feel due to peer pressure or trying to impress someone and it's horrible trying to work out what they think. And when we ask, we're punished for not just "knowing". Thanks for another great video! 💜
@@michaellemmen All people mask. Being polite or formal in certain situations is masking. But there are, imo, two levels to it, one is what I mentioned and the other, the one associated with being ND, is to mask to fit in with the majority of communications.
Why is their a Mystery to life? I have always been extremely expressive, but by being overly expressive in my emotions I got into trouble & picked on a lot. This is Masking made the normal by society. Now I often don’t tell people or let them see how I’m struggling because it’s stereotyped as being a week. I got really bad about not asking for help & I would just zone out or freak out. Zone out= flat face or melt down. Sometimes I would be so flat faced that I would freak people out. I regularly would then daze off in my mind for a while as I was trying to figure out the world. I was trying to configure why & how I was supposed to react. What I was expected to do, but also why others acted the way they did or thought the way they told me they thought. My family found this very creepy & told me repeatedly to stop dazing off. From this, I learned to compensate. If I don’t know how to react I ask questions. If I don’t know what is happening I ask what is happening & why. Often as an adult, folks just take it upon themselves to tell you even when you don’t ask. However, due to lying you still have to pay very close attention. Hence I have had to make myself hyper focused on learning how others express their emotions. I realized I had navigate through them. They don’t like feeling as awkward as I do in any moment, so I learned to suppress my own awkwardness, but it only stays down so long. I have learned to adjust to people around me, but it simply doesn’t work all the time & never works to an efficient constant. I don’t think or feel how others want me to necessarily & I also don’t regularly know how they want me to feel anyway! That being said, I shouldn’t have to feel or think in any manner that is beyond the levels of my comfort zone or energy capabilities. I can only do what I can consciously & physical manage. I also understand many individuals don’t quite get this themselves, so I have also learned to compensate through logical & meaningful speech. Issues being, this only works if I am not overwhelmed by other people’s emotional state or physical activity. I figured out early that understanding others is highly important. Hence, I’m continually adjusting to everyone as much as I can, so they feel comfortable & heard. Problematical, this negates my own difficulties. I have been told repeatedly, I have to understand better than I am. I was told this when I couldn’t read well. I was told this when I couldn’t do mathematics well. I was reminded of this when I had trouble with names & dates. I was mandated to do better! Although, if I stressed my difficulty with learning then I’m told I should already know better, while then simultaneously told to figure it out on my own some how. Why? That doesn’t make since if the other person doesn’t know any better either or can’t answer any of my questions. I might be hyper observant via necessary navigation of others, but the expectations of being self a taught is beyond reasonable mental congruency in society. Frankly, it quite pisses me off. Which I have recently discovered my anger is really just a cover up for my sadness. For some reason society likes angry people not sad people. Figure that one out! This in itself overwhelms me. I have gotten to the point where I just don’t want to be around people because I feel like my brain is fracturing through their psyche & still trying to elicit mine to them. Then people don’t seem to get how I don’t want to be touched! Why??? How do people not get that? Touching doesn’t make me feel better a mid overwhelming trying strain every possible part of myself to understand! It just makes me want to freak out!!! Trying to navigate people’s expectations & social cognitive bias is hard enough. Yet, people get how they don’t want to be touched if their overloaded. It makes my mind pop! It’s not difficult to understand Autistics people. People just don’t want to try because it’s outside of what they consider easy, while constantly expecting Autistic folks to understand the whole time & adhere to the status quo. Everyone knows that Society doesn’t make any logical since! Answer to Why their is a Mystery to life: Society masks that it doesn’t understand itself. It’s overwhelmed. Due to this, society refuses to admit that it simply doesn’t know enough of itself. That it doesn’t know enough of it’s own people without trying to get them to mask them selves. Society is logic inside of an illogical algorithm. You can’t figure it out within it or without it.
Autistamatic I appreciate your enthusiasm. 👍I really want to do a few different UA-cam channels, but I need a better lighting set up & a designated area for the videos. I also need to learn to script & write down my thought lines more.
Hearing flat affect described as a form of masking rather than an intrinsic part of the condition certainly explains why I certainly feel like I can sometimes be much more expressive than is usually described for an autistic person. These moments of expressiveness are usually when I'm speaking very passionately about something, or when I'm alone, where as in most social situations I adopt a more neutral face. This also has implications for what I've been thinking about how a hypothetical all or majority autistic population would be like, and more specifically if there was never a need to mask as neurotypical. Without being taught to tone down our body language and facial expressions, such a population could possibly be even more expressive than the general neurotypical population, rather than being like Vulcans.
I remember when I was younger and realized I needed to tone down my expressions. Very heartbreaking as a 7 year old. But since then I haven't really been able to be very expressive outside of my special interests. I'm trying to learn how to care again though
As so often I relate to a whole lot here. This is the first time I hear someone besides myself talk about their experience of how they recall becoming muted in their facial expression as a child. I can't quite pinpoint how it happened other than getting the sense that I was smiling too much, excitable etc. Luckily I slowly began reclaiming my famous smile since high-school 😀 Also mindfulness meditation as well as supportive relationships have helped but I still often feel like I'm wearing a wax mask. I finally got into the diagnostic process, but it seems that I'm not as an adult, with decades of learning to compensate and mask, such a clear cut case. One of the tests I did too good at was recognizing with fairly high accuracy the facial expressions in a couple of photos. I could with no hurry figure out those still pictures of faces with rather extreme expressions. Even a list of the basic emotions was provided for easy reference. If only in real life people would freeze into their expression, stop talking for a few moments and provide a list of possible emotions in play... Any suggestions for reading on facial expression and recognition in autism? Something that goes into the subtlety and variance of the theme.
The downside is that I had the same experience of having to learn to hide my emotions when I was a child, but the upside is that, like you, I also have a wonderful spouse with whom I can be myself now. :-) Yay for us! It's very difficult to work under people (NTs) who *think* they can read you by your expressions, especially when they read ill-intent or a bad attitude into the situation. A former manager insisted I smile more, deal with others face to face instead of via email, and "never have any complaints". She was a nut - but NT, like all the other nuts - so she got away with her bias while I had to leave (due to the migraines I developed, I finally quit).
Bravo! Fantastic! I had to get tested to realise i I rarely appreciate “normal” humour- i get cues to think it’s funny from the laugh t track, or other people around me. I am however a great dry comedianne at times. people be like “oh you so dry/witty”. I am too embarrassed to admit i wasn’t trying to tell a joke .... 😳
Hello, this is another video I must share with my family. All of us are guilty of being too quick to assume about each other, based on our family "repressiveness" and how people have treated us. I rarely consciously "shape" my face, except in the known expectation that you "smile" for the camera and when you first meet someone. (Although I have a huge struggle with maintaining eye contact and this causes problems as well.) Unfortunately, my family often misinterpret my "flat" face as reflecting a "negative" emotion and if I speak passionately, sometimes I am accused of "shouting" or of being "upset", when I was just being more emotional than they are used to. (School & other social groups are the main cause of my "selective mutism" & "flatness", though.) You're right that I need to grow my confidence about asking questions and I have made some baby steps. It does feel awkward though and I can still be misunderstood easily. Sometimes I choose to write how I feel instead or I show them a helpful video. Thanks again.
Thank you again Rowena and for sharing your feelings too. The more we talk to each other about our lives as autistic people, the less of us will feel alone.
You literally described me and my brother! I feel so connected with the way you think and with the way you were brought up too! I had a very strict dad so it was very a hard upbringing 🥺 I absolutely love your channel, I will be making choosing some topics from my favorite channels to comment on and to ad my own experience examples into then! I will be picking a few from your channel! 😊
Wow.. yours are the first videos I have seen in all my years searching UA-cam that make sense. I am subscribed ow and this is second video watched the first one was on lying. So true, my memory doesn't allow me to stick to a lie and I tell too much. I still have to find your video on talking too much.
Assumption whether others or self takes our true voice away and can damage and even kill. No not exaggerating here, experience speaking. Never assume anything each human individual autistic or not has feelings and what we say, the way we say it or think can have such a long lasting impact…misunderstandings are many without even knowing misunderstanding has occurred at times and can fester and grow impacting on further relationships and sense of self. I’ve just found your work..and one year into the shocking yet not revelation I am autistic at 56 years old and I’m now actively and for the rest of my life will to do all I can to learn, accept and educate 🙏 fantastic work you are doing and have saved me many many units of energy and time…. Appreciated.
Kia ora Quinn As a blind person this is really interesting stuff. I often find I wish my face was less expressive of the truth when I'm trying to soften my honesty, or more expressive when I'm trying to perform. I know the muscles are moving in different ways, and that those have meanings attached, but I rarely have any idea what they are. There are times when I will confirm that I felt in the way my face indicated, but other times I'm asked whether I'm okay when I have no idea what my face has just told my neighbour - nor any idea that I'm feeling anything in particular just then. Awareness is a first step along a journey of discovery. Thank you once again for your invaluable insights and wisdom. PS: I emailed you as invited, but I used the contact on the website as I couldn't find the 'about tab' (until I discovered it was a link), and then I try not to deal with forms unless I must. Hope that was okay. K
There's an interesting conversation to be had in what sensory differences and disabilities can tell us about the workings of our minds and our social systems. I'm looking forward to that one.
What you refer to as *assumptions we must be careful about making concerning facial expressions we observe in others* are generally thought of as social signifiers that the owner of the face must be mindful of sending out to the observer. Opposite day again I see (said with a smile). And when a person's affect is incongruent, I believe it is their responsibility to explain themselves as often as needed that their gears don't always mesh. Codependency is putting the burden on the observer to monitor, probe and pay inordinate amounts of attention to what's going on with another person's protocol. Ick.
What you propose is entirely parallel to the concept of "victim blaming" and incompatible with the platform of mutual respect between differing neurotypes so many of us (both ND & NT) are working to create. To draw an analogy, your suggestion is akin to putting the burden of access on wheelchair users rather than the owners of the environments they are excluded from.
@@Autistamatic Except I can see the wheelchair. Mental processes are invisible. One way we discern them is via facial expressions which, we agree are open to interpretation by the observer. But smiling is universally recognized as a gesture of warmth and friendliness, which is what I leave you with today.
@@flawedplannot every smile is for warmth and friendliness, if you believe that, you're ignorant of all the reasons people smile, and I know this as an autistic individual.
Hi. Concise and informative all of your videos, I love it. I would say the most imformative among all I watched. you even give tips and advice, not just share experience I have a conundrum I can't crack for months. it's about workplace relations. except my acount is in my real name, so I could lose job just for asking a question on open channel, any advice?
It's both and more. The point of the video is to explain that flat affect is not necessarily what the observer believes it to be & encourage them to ask rather than presume the worst, as so often happens between allistic & autistic people. I know that I & most other autists I have spoken to have adopted elements of neutral or understated expression as a defence mechanism, but we all have instances where our affect simply doesn't match the observer's expectations. It could be because our mood doesn't match their cognitive bias, our cultural traditions, local taboos or family upbringing are stricter or more reserved, or we're just not very expressive in that particular emotional cohort, maybe even overall. Even that's a very brief sampling of all the possibilities. Most non-autists have no idea that we mask at all, let alone the lengths we go to or the stress/fatigue it causes, hence the narrower emphasis required in the context of a short UA-cam video.
There is much helpful information here, but it often feels like NT’s are seen as adversaries that aren’t equally invested in doing our part to ‘meet in the middle’.
I've long known that I was much more expressive and outgoing as a child and that I learned to tamp that down due to bullying at school. I went from talkative to silent after going into grade school. After hearing you share your experience, I suddenly realized just how much of it also came from my parents and how damaging that was. Which is surprising to feel as a revelation, given the years of therapy I've done trying to untangle the trauma they dealt me. Guess I blocked this particular thing out and this helped me feel it again. Thank you.
I'm sorry you were taught to hide your feelings that way too. Thank you for sharing about it and helping myself and others feel more seen and understood about it.
Yes, yes, yes!! Add to this the neurotypical penchant for deliberately putting on an expression contrary to how they feel due to peer pressure or trying to impress someone and it's horrible trying to work out what they think. And when we ask, we're punished for not just "knowing". Thanks for another great video! 💜
That's something we'll cover on another day 😉 Thanks again for all your comments & support 💜
This always leads me to wonder if there is really such thing as neurotypical though because if they are just masking isn’t that considered ND?
@@michaellemmen All people mask. Being polite or formal in certain situations is masking. But there are, imo, two levels to it, one is what I mentioned and the other, the one associated with being ND, is to mask to fit in with the majority of communications.
Why is their a Mystery to life?
I have always been extremely expressive, but by being overly expressive in my emotions I got into trouble & picked on a lot. This is Masking made the normal by society.
Now I often don’t tell people or let them see how I’m struggling because it’s stereotyped as being a week. I got really bad about not asking for help & I would just zone out or freak out. Zone out= flat face or melt down.
Sometimes I would be so flat faced that I would freak people out. I regularly would then daze off in my mind for a while as I was trying to figure out the world.
I was trying to configure why & how I was supposed to react. What I was expected to do, but also why others acted the way they did or thought the way they told me they thought.
My family found this very creepy & told me repeatedly to stop dazing off. From this, I learned to compensate.
If I don’t know how to react I ask questions. If I don’t know what is happening I ask what is happening & why. Often as an adult, folks just take it upon themselves to tell you even when you don’t ask. However, due to lying you still have to pay very close attention.
Hence I have had to make myself hyper focused on learning how others express their emotions. I realized I had navigate through them. They don’t like feeling as awkward as I do in any moment, so I learned to suppress my own awkwardness, but it only stays down so long.
I have learned to adjust to people around me, but it simply doesn’t work all the time & never works to an efficient constant. I don’t think or feel how others want me to necessarily & I also don’t regularly know how they want me to feel anyway! That being said, I shouldn’t have to feel or think in any manner that is beyond the levels of my comfort zone or energy capabilities. I can only do what I can consciously & physical manage.
I also understand many individuals don’t quite get this themselves, so I have also learned to compensate through logical & meaningful speech. Issues being, this only works if I am not overwhelmed by other people’s emotional state or physical activity.
I figured out early that understanding others is highly important. Hence, I’m continually adjusting to everyone as much as I can, so they feel comfortable & heard. Problematical, this negates my own difficulties. I have been told repeatedly, I have to understand better than I am.
I was told this when I couldn’t read well. I was told this when I couldn’t do mathematics well. I was reminded of this when I had trouble with names & dates. I was mandated to do better! Although, if I stressed my difficulty with learning then I’m told I should already know better, while then simultaneously told to figure it out on my own some how. Why?
That doesn’t make since if the other person doesn’t know any better either or can’t answer any of my questions.
I might be hyper observant via necessary navigation of others, but the expectations of being self a taught is beyond reasonable mental congruency in society. Frankly, it quite pisses me off. Which I have recently discovered my anger is really just a cover up for my sadness. For some reason society likes angry people not sad people. Figure that one out!
This in itself overwhelms me. I have gotten to the point where I just don’t want to be around people because I feel like my brain is fracturing through their psyche & still trying to elicit mine to them.
Then people don’t seem to get how I don’t want to be touched! Why??? How do people not get that? Touching doesn’t make me feel better a mid overwhelming trying strain every possible part of myself to understand! It just makes me want to freak out!!! Trying to navigate people’s expectations & social cognitive bias is hard enough. Yet, people get how they don’t want to be touched if their overloaded. It makes my mind pop!
It’s not difficult to understand Autistics people. People just don’t want to try because it’s outside of what they consider easy, while constantly expecting Autistic folks to understand the whole time & adhere to the status quo. Everyone knows that Society doesn’t make any logical since!
Answer to Why their is a Mystery to life:
Society masks that it doesn’t understand itself. It’s overwhelmed. Due to this, society refuses to admit that it simply doesn’t know enough of itself. That it doesn’t know enough of it’s own people without trying to get them to mask them selves. Society is logic inside of an illogical algorithm. You can’t figure it out within it or without it.
Thanks again for commenting. Perhaps you should put some of your thoughts down in a blog? 👍
Autistamatic I appreciate your enthusiasm. 👍I really want to do a few different UA-cam channels, but I need a better lighting set up & a designated area for the videos. I also need to learn to script & write down my thought lines more.
Hearing flat affect described as a form of masking rather than an intrinsic part of the condition certainly explains why I certainly feel like I can sometimes be much more expressive than is usually described for an autistic person. These moments of expressiveness are usually when I'm speaking very passionately about something, or when I'm alone, where as in most social situations I adopt a more neutral face.
This also has implications for what I've been thinking about how a hypothetical all or majority autistic population would be like, and more specifically if there was never a need to mask as neurotypical. Without being taught to tone down our body language and facial expressions, such a population could possibly be even more expressive than the general neurotypical population, rather than being like Vulcans.
I remember when I was younger and realized I needed to tone down my expressions. Very heartbreaking as a 7 year old. But since then I haven't really been able to be very expressive outside of my special interests. I'm trying to learn how to care again though
As so often I relate to a whole lot here. This is the first time I hear someone besides myself talk about their experience of how they recall becoming muted in their facial expression as a child. I can't quite pinpoint how it happened other than getting the sense that I was smiling too much, excitable etc. Luckily I slowly began reclaiming my famous smile since high-school 😀 Also mindfulness meditation as well as supportive relationships have helped but I still often feel like I'm wearing a wax mask.
I finally got into the diagnostic process, but it seems that I'm not as an adult, with decades of learning to compensate and mask, such a clear cut case. One of the tests I did too good at was recognizing with fairly high accuracy the facial expressions in a couple of photos. I could with no hurry figure out those still pictures of faces with rather extreme expressions. Even a list of the basic emotions was provided for easy reference.
If only in real life people would freeze into their expression, stop talking for a few moments and provide a list of possible emotions in play...
Any suggestions for reading on facial expression and recognition in autism? Something that goes into the subtlety and variance of the theme.
A few, "ouches", and tears with this one. This is probably the best "therapy" i've had in years! Lots to think about. Thank you.
The downside is that I had the same experience of having to learn to hide my emotions when I was a child, but the upside is that, like you, I also have a wonderful spouse with whom I can be myself now. :-) Yay for us!
It's very difficult to work under people (NTs) who *think* they can read you by your expressions, especially when they read ill-intent or a bad attitude into the situation. A former manager insisted I smile more, deal with others face to face instead of via email, and "never have any complaints". She was a nut - but NT, like all the other nuts - so she got away with her bias while I had to leave (due to the migraines I developed, I finally quit).
Bravo! Fantastic!
I had to get tested to realise i I rarely appreciate “normal” humour- i get cues to think it’s funny from the laugh t track, or other people around me.
I am however a great dry comedianne at times. people be like “oh you so dry/witty”. I am too embarrassed to admit i wasn’t trying to tell a joke .... 😳
Hello, this is another video I must share with my family. All of us are guilty of being too quick to assume about each other, based on our family "repressiveness" and how people have treated us. I rarely consciously "shape" my face, except in the known expectation that you "smile" for the camera and when you first meet someone. (Although I have a huge struggle with maintaining eye contact and this causes problems as well.) Unfortunately, my family often misinterpret my "flat" face as reflecting a "negative" emotion and if I speak passionately, sometimes I am accused of "shouting" or of being "upset", when I was just being more emotional than they are used to. (School & other social groups are the main cause of my "selective mutism" & "flatness", though.)
You're right that I need to grow my confidence about asking questions and I have made some baby steps. It does feel awkward though and I can still be misunderstood easily. Sometimes I choose to write how I feel instead or I show them a helpful video. Thanks again.
Thank you again Rowena and for sharing your feelings too. The more we talk to each other about our lives as autistic people, the less of us will feel alone.
Very well explained again. Thank you. I personally have a very expressive face and I spend a lot of energy keeping my face straight.
Masking takes many forms, does it not? Thank you for watching & leaving a comment 😊
What a wonderful video. Great insights and great sense of self awareness. Thank you very much.
You literally described me and my brother! I feel so connected with the way you think and with the way you were brought up too! I had a very strict dad so it was very a hard upbringing 🥺 I absolutely love your channel, I will be making choosing some topics from my favorite channels to comment on and to ad my own experience examples into then! I will be picking a few from your channel! 😊
Wow.. yours are the first videos I have seen in all my years searching UA-cam that make sense. I am subscribed ow and this is second video watched the first one was on lying. So true, my memory doesn't allow me to stick to a lie and I tell too much. I still have to find your video on talking too much.
Assumption whether others or self takes our true voice away and can damage and even kill. No not exaggerating here, experience speaking.
Never assume anything each human individual autistic or not has feelings and what we say, the way we say it or think can have such a long lasting impact…misunderstandings are many without even knowing misunderstanding has occurred at times and can fester and grow impacting on further relationships and sense of self.
I’ve just found your work..and one year into the shocking yet not revelation I am autistic at 56 years old and I’m now actively and for the rest of my life will to do all I can to learn, accept and educate 🙏 fantastic work you are doing and have saved me many many units of energy and time…. Appreciated.
Brilliant 👏😍
Kia ora Quinn
As a blind person this is really interesting stuff. I often find I wish my face was less expressive of the truth when I'm trying to soften my honesty, or more expressive when I'm trying to perform. I know the muscles are moving in different ways, and that those have meanings attached, but I rarely have any idea what they are. There are times when I will confirm that I felt in the way my face indicated, but other times I'm asked whether I'm okay when I have no idea what my face has just told my neighbour - nor any idea that I'm feeling anything in particular just then.
Awareness is a first step along a journey of discovery. Thank you once again for your invaluable insights and wisdom.
PS: I emailed you as invited, but I used the contact on the website as I couldn't find the 'about tab' (until I discovered it was a link), and then I try not to deal with forms unless I must. Hope that was okay.
K
There's an interesting conversation to be had in what sensory differences and disabilities can tell us about the workings of our minds and our social systems. I'm looking forward to that one.
What you refer to as *assumptions we must be careful about making concerning facial expressions we observe in others* are generally thought of as social signifiers that the owner of the face must be mindful of sending out to the observer. Opposite day again I see (said with a smile). And when a person's affect is incongruent, I believe it is their responsibility to explain themselves as often as needed that their gears don't always mesh. Codependency is putting the burden on the observer to monitor, probe and pay inordinate amounts of attention to what's going on with another person's protocol. Ick.
What you propose is entirely parallel to the concept of "victim blaming" and incompatible with the platform of mutual respect between differing neurotypes so many of us (both ND & NT) are working to create. To draw an analogy, your suggestion is akin to putting the burden of access on wheelchair users rather than the owners of the environments they are excluded from.
@@Autistamatic Except I can see the wheelchair. Mental processes are invisible. One way we discern them is via facial expressions which, we agree are open to interpretation by the observer. But smiling is universally recognized as a gesture of warmth and friendliness, which is what I leave you with today.
@@flawedplannot every smile is for warmth and friendliness, if you believe that, you're ignorant of all the reasons people smile, and I know this as an autistic individual.
@@strictnonconformist7369 Nope, I certainly don't believe that nonsense, and have given you no reason to presume I do.
Hi. Concise and informative all of your videos, I love it. I would say the most imformative among all I watched. you even give tips and advice, not just share experience
I have a conundrum I can't crack for months. it's about workplace relations. except my acount is in my real name, so I could lose job just for asking a question on open channel, any advice?
Interesting that it seems like you consider flat affect as a mask, while for me I think today affect is my natural expression.
It's both and more. The point of the video is to explain that flat affect is not necessarily what the observer believes it to be & encourage them to ask rather than presume the worst, as so often happens between allistic & autistic people. I know that I & most other autists I have spoken to have adopted elements of neutral or understated expression as a defence mechanism, but we all have instances where our affect simply doesn't match the observer's expectations. It could be because our mood doesn't match their cognitive bias, our cultural traditions, local taboos or family upbringing are stricter or more reserved, or we're just not very expressive in that particular emotional cohort, maybe even overall. Even that's a very brief sampling of all the possibilities.
Most non-autists have no idea that we mask at all, let alone the lengths we go to or the stress/fatigue it causes, hence the narrower emphasis required in the context of a short UA-cam video.
Xddd
There is much helpful information here, but it often feels like NT’s are seen as adversaries that aren’t equally invested in doing our part to ‘meet in the middle’.