Autistic Black & White Thinking... Autism & Relationships 9 * Morality & Justice *
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- Опубліковано 22 вер 2020
- How DO you change an autist's mind? Autism is associated with black & white thinking - but it's not quite what most people think. Where did the idea of autistic rigid, black & white thinking come from? What does it look like? Could it be a GOOD thing?
Article:
"Very Grand Emotions: How Autistics and Neurotypicals Experience Emotions Differently" by Terra Vance
neuroclastic.com/2019/03/23/v...
Find more at
autistamatic.com
#Actually Autistic #AllAutistics #AskingAutistics #Autism
Part 1: Dealing with Diagnosis
• Dealing with Diagnosis...
Part 2: "You've Changed"
• Does Autism Diagnosis ...
Part 3: "Mind Reading" - Theory of Mind
• "Mind Reading" - (Theo...
Part 4: "Face Value" (Expressions & Flat Affect)
• "Face Value" (Expressi...
Part 5: Honesty
• Honesty (Is Autistic H...
Part 6: Being Blunt
• Being Blunt (and how n...
Part 7: The BIG Picture
• The BIG Picture... Aut...
Part 8: Special Interests
• Special Interests.... ...
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SO MUCH THIS!!!!!!! Almost every time I've been accused of black & white thinking, it's either been because I was trying to get an answer to one of the clarifying questions he lists here, or I've been trying to get an honest answer from someone who's prevaricating or giving vague, propagandic non-answers, and have resorted to phrasing my questions in either/or formulas. That's not an inability to think dialectically, it's a communication issue.
I've often noticed that those who insist they are "right" turn out to be often "wrong"!
I have the tendency to “enforce” my moral guide on others, simply because I see how they lie to avoid conflict. I see now that the only times I’ve been able to “group think” is when seeking for acceptance from others, but now as a 20 year old in too many friendships that end up with me lying/agreeing for the sake of not creating problems that it only creates more problems internally. I now recognize that friend groups are self destructive for that reason, at least for me
This has been my biggest problem with being able to be around people. I hit a wall. I just can’t deal with unfair treatment of others & the lies people uphold. I just don’t want it & can’t be around it at all anymore.
It’s like being back in grade school with the yard bullies & the clicks who are liars or manipulators. I use to find ways to stay home from school becuz I just couldn’t deal with it. Now I can’t bring myself to work around anyone.
I don’t understand why people don’t want to be truthful, logical & fair. People get angry at me when I ask questions about their behavior. The get mad when I won’t lie for them. They dislike me when I won’t agree to the hatred of groups of people.
Then I become the lesser & the outsider. I just can’t group think! It’s not within me. If it doesn’t make since I can’t do willfully. I have to ask why! I cant lie! I have to point out unfairness! I can’t uphold illogical behavior intentionally! I have to question! People get so irritated when I want to know why! These are the morals people told us to have. Now they say forget them if you want in the group? They keep their your group. I’ll stay home 😞
You're definitely far from the only one of us who has retreated from life for such reasons 😢
Autistamatic thank you for understanding. I know I’m not the only one, bt it’s financially overwhelming for my wife. I had a burn out about 4- 5 yrs ago & now I just can’t keep a job to save my life. Which puts even more strain on my wife. She tries so hard for me bt I can’t work in a lot of environments. Every time I’m around people who are negative it exhaust me & I start having several meltdowns. I just can’t burn myself out the way I did before 4-5 years ago. I won’t make it back this time.
If we had the money so I could go get diagnosed maybe it would help, bt then I would need to have a stable job that pays more than 10 an hour. Which just puts me right back in the same catch loop. It’s like I’m living in a a time paradox & I’m paralyzed by it.
I keep trying to find ways to fix the paradox but everything I try just loops back around to create a bigger thought problem. The algorithm keeps resetting to compensate for my variant solution. Technically, Schrodingers cat never makes it out of the box dead or alive. It’s trapped inside either way. The only way out of the box is to have never been in it, bt the cat doesn’t get a choice. Who’s to say their even is a cat in the box? Could be a dog or nothing at all.
I guess I have to just let it be what it is & pretend the problem doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t solve the issue especially if I’m the trapped cat. Hence, the paradox repeats itself.
@@why2goatdagame if you’re still not able to work, I just wanted to let you know that I applied for vocational rehab with my state and they paid for the neuropsychological evaluation that diagnosed me with autism. They will also help find you a job that works for you, even if that means working from home where you can control your sensory environment. They can also pay for you to go to school for a career that pays more. Good luck! I have similar problems and I’m working on solving them. Vocational rehab has been a huge help. Also the center for independent living gave me a disability advocate that also helps with things like this. I highly recommend signing up for that. You can also apply for disability and I think they can pay for the autism evaluation.
@@chooseaname1423 are you in US? UK? Wondering what country has programs & resources like this. I know how hard it can be to land & keep a job!
For me, I mostly feel like I can recognize and appreciate the grey areas, but my gut feelings are much less nuanced. At my core I tend to think that everything is more black and white and in our control than people think, and that the claim of things being grey is just an excuse not to work the problem. I know in my logical brain that that’s not the case, but I can’t shake the feeling.
I do think things are more black and white but the black and the white are all over the place. They are mixed but the black stays black, and the white stays white.
Kind of like a oil and water situation, you can mix them but they won't unite with each other.
I’m just ADHD but my moral compass is so freaking consistent (not always a good thing when trying to socialize), that I’m always seen as a person who overthinks every step of life. If there’s no logic or pattern to it then it has no place in my surroundings. People are so incomprehensible I swear.
YESSS!! The way we think isn’t flawed or too rigid, society wants us to conform to their mutable and corrupt moral ways and when we point that out, people get so mad at us! Society teaches people to self abandon authenticity for external validation and group acceptance. Y’all can keep it! I’ll keep looking for genuine, kind, moral people that don’t immediately jump to “It’s not that deep”. Like no, the world is an ocean and neurotypical people refuse to go past their ankles and then demand that everyone accept that as the true depth. People are drowning and they’re more worried about soothing their own guilt for not helping them than being real and true.
I was looking on ways to stop being this way! Unfairness infuriates me but working in childcare it’s impossible to avoid. Recently I tried to send a boy home for a dress code violation more commonly applied to girls. I was ridiculed for this. I’m still mad.
Innapropriate is inappropriate regardless. Sorry that happened.
This explains so much of my childhood/youth as well as so many personal experiences in the workplace. I wish I had understood this earlier.
I could be biased (full disclosure, I'm a socialist anarchist) but if the advice you give to non-autists were more consistently followed, the result would be a democratic political revolution in which many of the institutions we take for granted would be reformed beyond recognition or eliminated entirely.
Sometimes it’s like everyone is running on a script they all share… but they don’t, and they aren’t… which makes it all the more terrifying
This is incredibly insightful, thank you. We need more people to talk about this aspect of autism.
Gotta remember that we arent morally superior, we're less loose with our values. We have a growing group of yt supremacists in the autistic community which is very troubling.
Wow I did not realize this😮 thank you for sharing thats concerning news.
Please just write out the word "white". It takes some real effort in the brain to figure out that yt doesn't mean UA-cam.
youtube supremacists are pretty bad...
@@sarahdanon7336 I've never seen a single one. They're pretty rare, I'd say. Unless your definition of supremacist includes people that don't give a darn about race.
@@vedinthorn lol, nope
This is brilliant. Also, thank you. Now I know why I have been on a rampage since I was 5 years old.
Great video!
I do wanna point out another reason that autistic people can be in the "wrong"
1. When we distort our feelings as fact - equating how we feel when someone says something (assuming judgement or someone is trying to create a certain emotion by force)
2. When our definition of what counts as evidence is limited -
For example, relying on one dictionary definition of a word as correct (prescriptivism) rather than a consensus definition {disability is a great example of how many dictionaries dont mention disability community and disability as neutral}. If sowmone asks you to work together to come to a consensus on a definition --> that's not fighting your definition (necessarily), its usually creating a foundation where everyone can be on the same page.
Yes, this is essential to do for things we feel certain about, like defining what autistic means.
3. Not double checking our own work or relying on minimal or one souce.
4. Buying into systemic injustice -- looking up the tenants of white supremacy is one example. Another issue is relying on the written word or only considering "experts" as people who have studied something - meaning discounting lived experiences.
Yes, there are lots of times that we as autistic people aren't being rigid, we just arent bending to someone else's ideas. And we need to be able to self reflect and examine information from a multifaceted lens
This video really warmed my autistic+cultural anthropologist heart 💜
Yes! Yes! Yes!
If you haven't already done so, have a read of Terra's article linked in the description. It'll likely warm your heart a little bit more 💜
Autistamatic I stumbled upon Terra’s amazing article that you mentioned a few months ago and it led me to watch the film “RBG”... Justice and fairness all the way please!
@@Autistamatic Terra's always on the nose!
Excellent…you just laid out my thinking process clearly. I understand myself better having this put into a logical frame. I’m going to share this.
Thank you alys😁
❤ 100
Thank you so much for being a voice for us!!!! And thank you for helping me better understand myself and my place in the world. I could never thank you enough for the work you do on behalf of all of us. You are my personal hero frankly. I love your ability to put so of my innermost thoughts into words for all to easily understand. Kudos!😊
Well-reasoned and well explained. Thanks for the recommendation to Terra Vance’s article.
I think a lot of naysayers would dismiss this video as self-congratulatory “cope”, but frankly I agree with it 100%. Whenever I am accused of “black and white thinking”, I ask my interlocutors to explain what important detail/nuance I’m failing to consider. Cue silence.
I think autistic people are a lot like Boxer from Animal Farm when he challenged Napoleon’s propaganda. He wasn’t trying to be contrarian; he was just calling a spade a spade and failing to “read the room”.
Great production values here Quinn, im immersed!
Awesome video, thank you! :)
Thank you for making me feel less alone. I appreciate this video and your thorough rhetoric
I have been described as the most stubborn person because I do not believe in gossip & the accepted drivel small-talk that most use. Good video, good points - I out grew carrots & sticks around 12 when I was described as sullen.
Good points, well made. Thanks for commenting 👍
When i overhear NT females gossiping about work colleagues, criticizing their hair colour for example i feel physically agitated and i have to supress the need to intervene and correct moral transgressions. I've often been accused as trying to save the world and interferring
@@DrLisaDeG I know, I used to be a teacher & I could not stand the horrible ongoing commentary in the staff room. People are fickle. Just breathe & practice your dark arts, have you a decent cursing wand? I have - my curses work.
@@robertjohnburton9775 lol. I'm a slytherin so yes 🤪
@@DrLisaDeG Good, look around for at least one supportive work colleague. I am watching Autistamatic's latest, it really hits home with this topic too.
I subscribe to each and every word you said on this video.
Thank you, @Autistamatic
So many of us DO relate to this it's surprising so few representations of autism have actually picked up on it. I've seen a few documents that acknowledge it but not yet enough. Thanks very much for commenting 😊
Holy shit. Great job! Thanks!
I get so exited with all you videos 🤩
Thank you 💜
I remember being a young undx'd kid and hearing those 'peer pressure' PSAs in elementary school and being TERRIFIED of the day my peer pressure was going to kick in and suddenly I'm going to start acting unlike myself or being mind-controlled by my friends. I'm 34 (Today! My bday!) and it still hasn't showed up haha. Ironically enough, I was scared as hell to do any drugs before they were legal and was always worried for the day I was finally going to get peer pressured and this chain was going to fly out of hell and wrap itself around my brain, tugging me towards the bad influence against my will. (Being in the social outgroups except the turbonerds probably helps you avoid the pressure-ful parties lol. Never understood why people wanted to go stand around in a room with a bunch of people on the stranger-spectrum either TBH.)
Once they were legal though, the only person that decided to try them was myself with no outside influence. I now realize I may not be particularly vulnerable to peer pressure. The only real pressure I feel is to conform to societal pressures and literally every single day is a 24 hour battle against them. So I have nothing (additional at least) to worry about from my so called 'peers' lol
Weird how the NT society tried to steel me against itself though. Guess it worked and jokes on them!
Happy Birthday! 🎂
I keep looping back with one of the caregiving guys. He keeps telling me I keep thinking in black and white. I told him everyone does that. And the only reason "grey" areas exist is because people will hypocritically let their values go if they believe it grants them more money or social peace.
To me that type of behavior falls into the black area. They are completely untrustworthy, they will change their mind on a dime. You can't rely on them.
They think I'm in the black for being too inflexible and demanding they suffer more while not flipflopping around.
To an outsider that wants to appease both or doesn't agree with either point might call it grey as well.
It is a ridiculous term.
Yup. I’d rather make an enemy drawing a hardline than keep a friend around that I know is gonna flip on me as soon as it can benefit them.
Speaking on a personal level the frustrating thing is lack of clarity or lack of evidence for making judgements. What are the criteria? Are they clear or are they ambiguous? Judgements may involve weighing up lots of different kinds of evidence but there need to be criteria and process, not just making decisions based on impressions, feelings or some other vague basis. Vagueness can not only lead to wrong decisions but also inconsistency and unfairness and the latter two often cause more discontent than making mistakes.
This may explain why I'm the one who always ends up with the 'black-and-white' label; yet, I am also the one who can successfully argue their case - a skill which most around me seem neither willing or able to cultivate. they end up shutting me down by saying 'It doesn't matter'. That phrase makes me grind my teeth.
Wow what a Great video
Please explain more about nuances and social cues because I think I can easily read these.
Thanks for sharing this. I'm new to learning about the autistic experience but I'm also fascinated. As a gifted person, I hold similar ideals for truth and justice. Haphazard reasoning doesn't bode well with us either. I'm curious how people with autism reconcile the fact that much of our lives is based on imperfect human-created constructs. For example, there are scientific classifications for animals and plants but there are also myriad exceptions to those rules (platypus and "fish don't exist" etc). Similarly in science, the "laws" of nature or physics always allow for even an infinitesimal possibility that what we've already experienced won't be true on the next attempt. I'm genuinely curious how the mechanics of the autistic mind reconcile these things and how similar thinking is applied to relationships and other aspects of life.
My mom accused me of black & white thinking many times throughout my life when I was bullied or taken advantage of, and she would tell me to "maybe look at things from the other person's point of view/have empathy". Excuse me, what the fuck? I AM OBJECTIVELY THE VICTIM HERE!!! Meanwhile if ANY of the fucked up shit that happened to me ever happened to my NT sister, my dad would go absolutely berserk.
Since I'm enraged about war, ecocide, racism and greed, this does not help me in any way.
I’ve pretty much got to the point where I don’t really care what the muggles think of me. I’m me, I have my ways and opinions. You expect me to accept you and I do but if you won’t extend me the same courtesy I don’t care, I just won’t bother with you unless it’s unavoidable. I have my friends who do accept me so why should I care if you do. If you don’t like like it you can just do one! 👍🤘
Black or white and all or nothing thinking, in terms of autism, probably results from limited cognitive empathy. It's a difficulty in seeing from other's viewpoint and hence a difficulty in seeing new perspectives and multiple perspectives. To not understand another's mind is to be entirely oblivious to an entire different worldview. Because of this, many autistics are maybe more likely to see everything through their own viewpoint and falsely assume that it is the only viewpoint or the right viewpoint. So, it's not so much dogmatism, absolutism, or dualism but a rigidity of thought process, a constraint to cognitive fluidity on a psycho-social level.
That means an autistic might be more likely to feel strongly that they are right. The weakness is that, in not seeing other sides, it's harder to assess a balanced view. It does make for independent-thinking which has it's value, if it is also isolating and off-putting to many non-autistics. Even autistics will butt heads for this reason since each probably has a different sense of what is right with less ability to find middle ground, compromise, or even simply agreeing to disagree. That isn't to say autistics can't change their minds but that they can't as easily do so through cognitive empathy. It's all the more important that autistics learn critical thinking, including self-criticism.
Black and white thinking would be easier and less stimulating, less vague,less freezing out oneself from action. These could be possible reason s
Its not black or white its an intolerance of bs. We dont dance around with the truth. It is what it is. Most people dont like when you call out their bs so they lash out at us.
Wouw
I definitely agree with this. The challenge I've often faced with my ASD partner is his challenge with long term planning, and being able to value things in the future. For example. I can explain how he can benefit from engaging in polite conversation with coworkers/boss. How this results in nonqualtifiable favors such as a coworker being willing to cover for you when needed, or a boss agreeing to give you a raise. But in THIS moment he only sees the annoying superficial interaction, and will then complain later on about not getting a raise, or not having anyone willing to cover for him. He will agree with me "on paper" of the long term benefits, but I truly think his prefrontal cortex didn't develop to its fullest potential due to his great difficulties in long term planning.
This presents as ' I tell him that if he does the thing he can't do he will benefit in the long run ' and ' because he doesn't do the thing he can't do, it presents a challenge for me and represents a planning deficit for him ' .
@@dmperrithats what i read too
I don't think that these short comings apply to all Autistic people.
Like to me are utterly ridiculous like for instance or mother was doing a surprise party for my dad and lied to him about something else I asked why she lied and she said it's a white lie the bible don't call for any type of lies. If this was me in the situation and my mom did throw me a surprise party I would be so angry. I am 13 so when I was 10 she told me santa was not real and I just got mad because she lied my mom is the she.