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330: What is the 30.52 Winchester?
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- Опубліковано 23 жов 2023
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! Well, guess what, folks, the 6.5 Creedmoor is laden down with bullet flaws, and the 308 Winchester is superior. And anyone who likes the 308 should not listen to this podcast... according to one of our commenters. Others are commenting about the absolute best all-around cartridge. They're arguing that it's not a 22 Long Rifle like I suggested, and someone wants to know what cartridge has taken the most game around the world? And what is the 30.52 Winchester? We're going to see if we can figure all of that out on this episode of Ron's Spomer Outdoors podcast.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media...
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
The complaints of the Vietnam vets about the "jam-o-matic" M-16 were all true - BUT they were caused by the Army. The Army insisted on using up its supplies of powder left over from WW2 and Korea EVEN THOUGH Stoner told them repeatedly that the rifle wouldn't run right with that surplus powder. It took a whole bunch of battlefield failure reports (far too many) before things got straightened out.
Hearing the stories of soldiers finding their brothers dead, shot while trying to unjam their M-16’s is heartbreaking. And yes, absolutely it was a powder issue. Stoner didn’t produce a dud… the army cheaped out.
Truth.
The M-16 didn't get your buddy killed, THE ARMY DID.
McNamara, the Sec Def was the problem. He wanted to cut corners on nickel and dime issues, while wasting billions on projects like the F111 and trying to make it a fighter for all services. (imagine how few of those would fit on an aircraft carrier). McNamara Ok'd non chrome lining. In the jungle that was a bad move. The powder was also a bad move. A penny wise and a pound foolish comes to mind.
@kirkboswell2575 ---> The Mattel-16 was/is a piece of junk. Pot metal and plastic. Don't blame gun powder, blame the purchasing idjits at the Pentagon that never fired the thing but played golf with the makers of it.
I'm Vietnam-Era U.S.M.C. (never in country) and shot expert with the Mattel-16 several times in the Corps and later in the ARNG. Not because it was good gun, but because I learned to shoot firearms as a 13/14 year-old and joined the NRA Junior program and learned well. {[ What a silly gun,,, we had to adjust the front sight with a 10 penny nail. 🤯🤕🥵 The M-1 Garand and M-14 had the sight adjusts for windage & elevation in the rear sight area.]}
My instructor in M-60 machine gun class at I.T.S. Camp Pendleton had been "in-country" and he said several times the ONLY weapon still returning fire at the V.C./ N.V.A. was the platoon machine-gunner using the M-60 (7.62 NATO cartridge) and the guys with .45 M1911a1 Colts. The water in the rice paddies would jam the Mattel-16.
@@gusloader123my dad is a Vietnam Vet. He was a Green Beret over there between 65 and 67. Do you think Special Forces were supplied with different munitions? The reason why I ask is because my dad absolutely LOVED his M16, and claimed his unit never had an issue with them (even thought a lot of them carried captured AK's). My dad mentioned he shot expert with a 1911, which he reloaded for his company C.O., and expert with his M16, which he attributed to the ease with which he could shoot a 5.56mm versus a 30-06 in the M1 Garand he had in Basic. Mind you, my dad was 5'9", 115lbs when he joined, and 95lb. when he was discharged. I know I have heard the stories, and I don't dispute them (given the cheapness of the defense dept.), but has your opinion ever changed since the modifications were made? What about modern AR 15s? I really like the ease of operation and "shootability" of my M&P 15.
I would say the 22 long rifle has killed more animals for sure than any other round. And that’s due to its use in slaughterhouses for decades that may not be the same as game animals but adding that to the total has to push it over the top.
Good point
I'd say the compressed air bolt gun has killed more than every firearm since the invention of gunpowder. I have a friend who used to kill an average of 700 hogs a day with one in a slaughterhouse.
The pure volume and the low cost of ammo you can carry in 22 long rifle makes it the most practical caliber to keep.
31:34
moman is right, and has been for a long time.
My parents owned a dairy farm in central Alabama for many years. There was a 40 acre plot that was mostly separated from the rest, but had an access road on the back side.
A few days before Christmas one year, back during the 70s, my dad, a couple of Bro-in-laws and I went in there looking for a Christmas Tree (it was mostly just woods and overgrown scrub cut stuff ).
To our surprise, we found several unknown people and vehicles there.
Without letting on who we were, dad asked one of them “Are you boys killing a lot of deer?”
Guy says “Nah, I think we’ve already driven all of them out of here.”
At that time there were almost zero deer in this part of the state and, having lived here 20 years, I had never even seen one on this farm. It’s all houses now and, thanks to new game management policies, there are lots of deer. You just can’t hunt for all the houses.
Boy, I was p*ssed off, but they all had guns, and we didn’t.
At times, we also had people cutting our fences and stealing timber. To a dairy farmer, a fence protects his livelihood. Those people didn’t give a damn.
And, the county wasn’t crowded at all then.
Trespassing a-holes 🤬
I've read articles about long range shooting during the civil war. Some shooters would whittle wooden extensions for their rear sights so they could extend their range. I used to own a Zuoave .58 caliber that had the pop up sights numbered 1, 2, and 3. I assumed the 3 was for 300 yards. When I used it I felt I was hunting for airplanes because the muzzle was pointed to the sky. The mini ball bullets I used were cast by me and I got 14 from a pound of lead so at long distance I could hear the bullet flying through the air like a artillary round.
That .58 caliber was a brute.
I’m a .308 Win fan . I am also a BIG fan of Ron Spomer. Keep up the good work Ron.
Thanks Steven.
Waited for the answer, still waiting
I would have to go 22lr as well. A fun fact, the Louisiana state record typical whitetail was killed with one. The record stands as there was no law against using one for taking deer at the time.
It is legal in Mississippi now
I would guess the 22LR has taken everything from squirrels to Grizzly Bears, keep in mind the largest Grizzly every killed, was killed by a 22 Long, as the Indian woman that killed the Grizzly, bought 22 Longs as they were less expensive than 22LR. This took place in the 1950's. I also read that back in the Great Depression the 22LR killed a lot of Deer.
The woman who shot that bear lived 50 miles from were I live today the bear is in a museum in kinuso Alberta
@@wilmamcdermott3065 I would like to see that Grizzly skin, it must be huge!
@@anthonybonavia2570 it's a full amount12 foot tall my name is Dennis
So the fight at Adobe WALLS was made famous by Billy Dixon. He later commented that the shot and hit were/was purely luck.having said this there are shooters who can make a mile long shot with the magnificent sharps easily and daily
Great work as always
Wasn't that the fight where they couldn't kill Quanta Parker?
(Bren Hill has a song about that).
Making mile long shots with the sharps "easily"? I highly doubt how "easily" it is done.
@fedup3582 I didn't say any shooter could make such a shot ,but a person who has devoted themselves to their sharps can make such a shot .they would have to work very hard to get there.once dialed in they do make such shots easily.they are out there on UA-cam. Ps Dixons rifle was a sharps big 50.not nearly as long range rig as say a 45/120. Have a great day
@@dinoquintana4319 we all know utube videos are never edited.
I see that it has already been mentioned many times that the early problems with the M16 were mainly due to the ordinance department insisting on using old stores of WWII ball powder before making new M16 ammunition with the stick powder Stoner and Remington designed the cartridge around, and that the military is now adopting a new rifle - which is ironically based on Stoner's AR-10 they refused in favor of the M14 - which is chambered for the 6.8 Fury/ 6.8 x 51.
For starters, if I was a veteran in the Vietnam War who had trained with the M1 or M14 then handed a rifle with a plastic butt stock and forend and chambering for a round literally half the size I might have been very displeased to say it mildly. In my opinion the 5.56x45 has always been too small and outside the realm of what an "intermediate" cartridge should be. For as long as I've known about the M16 I've asked, why didn't they design the rifle around a cartridge similar to the 8mm Kurz or the .280 British? Of course being the ordinance dept of the U.S. it's understandable that it's not going to be a cartridge adopted by a foreign service but my thinking was always that the cartridge should have a powder capacity of about 30gr and a bullet of about 100 to 115gr. When the 6.8 SPC came out I thought they had hit the nail on the head and the military would surely adopt it. But, Noooo... WT...?
Secondly, I think the military leadership has lost their collective minds! It's not bad enough that they are adopting a new rifle made by Sig - a foreign weapons maker - but chambering the gun for a combat cartridge with ~80,000 psi is NUTZ!
If they wanted an AR-10 rifle platform there are plenty of weapons manufacturers right here in the U.S. who would be more than willing to take on the task. And as for the 80,000 psi cartridge? Again, they're NUTZ!!! I cannot perceive any scenarios where a rifle with a 16" or 18" barrel could make full use of that much pressure. (As far as I have learned, that is the barrel lengths of the new rifles). Something just does NOT smell right about this whole new combat weapon deal.
I like listening to you Ron. You are very like the gun writers of yesteryear, 30, 40, 50 and 60 years ago. You speak truth, no new fangled whiz bang go with what every one else is or because it looks cool. Much respect and Thank You!!!
Ron, I trained and qualified on both the M14 and the M16 in 1968 before going to VietNam the following year. I found both to be reliable weapons but the M16 felt like a Mattel toy compared to the M14. However I have some experience with the M14 prior to my army service. In 1964 I graduated from a high school in Chicopee, Mass. As an honor student I was privileged to spend a day visiting at the Springfield Armory. The QC manager I spent the day with described the feeding problems they were experiencing with the new M14 rifles, which they were then testing. There were frequent stoppages with that firearm until the problem was somehow solved. We shouldn't be surprised that a new firearm may have some flaws that need fixing. I am aware of the initial problems with the M16 due to the change to ball powder and the lack of instruction given the troops initially on properly cleaning that rifle. Those problems were solved before I enlisted.
The 22 hands down.back in the old days ,the bad old days dad would hand out a couple of those ohhhh so valuable shells and at the end of your hunt you'd better have some game ,the shells, or a very good (it was never good enough )reason why you missed.there was never a pigeon problem I n the 30s.they called them squab
Dad's .22 LR Single shot took HUNDREDS of deer in the 50s to 70s.... how millions of .22s did that.
Squab refers to the unlatched embryo in the egg.
Squab on toast referred to pan fried embryos sautéed in butter, served on toast. A breakfast delicacy from the late 1800’s to early 1900’s.
The 300 Ham'r is different from what Ron remembered. The 300 Ham'r is .30 cal hunting cartridge based on the .223 case from Wilson Combat. It is optimized for supersonic bullets and can fit into an AR15. Compared to the 300 Blackout, the Ham'r has a longer, blown out case for more propellant. This allows it to shoot 95grain - 150 grain bullets 150 to 300 fps faster. Bill Wilson has touted it as giving 30-30 performance from an AR15. It can even use some of the 30-30 bullets, but also can use ones with more streamlined, pointed tips.
This sounds exactly right, jfess. Thanks!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors No problem. There are a lot of cartridges out there and new ones being introduced frequently. Its hard to keep track of everything! Now that AR15's are being called "Modern Sporting Rifles", there is an increasing amount of interest in hunting cartridges designed for them.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors You should do a comparison video of the 300 HAM'R vs the 300 Blackout vs the 30-30 assuming same length barrels. It would give people an idea of where the new cartridge falls.
An awful lot of MN deer hunters used war surplus rifles when I was young and they sold them out of barrels at Sears Roebuck. Lots of 7 and 8mm Mausers even Swiss and Mosins.
Well, even though I am 308 man, I still love Ron. So we can all live together. Plus that is more 308 for me.
The 308 is still a perfectly good cartridge. It is not really surprising, though, that after 70 years, people have figured out how to make cartridges that exceed it in certain aspects. Heck, the improvements in bullets and propellants have made the 308 better than it was in 1952 as well!
A big change in the last 20 years has been affordable laser range finders. This has made guessing at elevation settings a thing of the past for longer range shooters. It makes sense that many newer cartridges are designed more around long-range energy and reduced wind-drift than a cartridge from 1952.
If you have ever hunted with the first generation Remington model 7 you know how sweet a light accurate rifle can be. I always got my game with the 18.5 inch barrel. You don't need that extra weight.
One thing to consider for the 22lr for game kills, places like Mexico where it’s the only thing they most can get so it’s used for everything including deer. The ammunition for larger rifles, if they can even get the permit, is absurdly expensive as it has to be purchased through the government making 22lr the only thing they can afford for the rural folk that are out meat hunting.
Qualified Expert with M14, get to Nam, they hand me an automatic groundhog gun. Though having improved both gun and ammo, I still can’t bring myself to use one. M1A is my go to even until today.
I would think in places like Canada the British 303 just might be number one.
Missed the pod cast again. But, the tail end of it sounded like it was a great show! (as always, Ron!) Art
The 6.5 Creedmoor is not being adopted by the armed forces. Sig sauer came out with a 6.8x51mm rifle platform.
Which Remington did 25 years ago, but...
@@jacobmccandles1767give or take 20,000 psi
@@clinthultgren5269 I thought it was a sig. But I'll check it out for sure!
@@jacobmccandles17676.8spc has a 43mm case length, not 51mm.
Yeah, I got confused w/the military’s “requirements”, then they’d change their mind then want this caliber, length, etc. It was hard for manufacturers to keep up. The “new”, caliber the 6.8x51mm Fury(?), with a bi-metal case, they hollow out the inside of the case, 80,000p.s.i., which standard “civilian”, rifles won’t be made to handle those pressures unless they use the “CC-6.8x51mm or .277 Fury”? I think it’s a bad move & it was a way to cut civilian truly out of the mix in re-creating it by the “average”, hand loader due to the bi-metal case, thinning interior case for increased case capacity. It’s just too complicated for it to be a TRUE Civilian cartridge as used by the Military. We’ll never see true .277 Fury’s in hunting camps & IF you do they’ll be few & far between. The rifles will most likely never be produced in such numbers to make them affordable for the average hunter. The “Common Cartridge”, 6.8x51mm will be 100% military or ammo producers for military that will make brass (so to speak), & as the last few decades have proven anything, we better not count on an ammo company or the Fed Gov going out of their way to help arm & load the average Joe Civilian. True? Afraid so. Guys I’ve talked to that have shot the “.277 Fury”, says it’s got PLENTY of Recoil”, and they seriously doubt ALL recruits will be able to handle it across the board. I say “who cares?”. Go get a .270 Rem if you want a proven 6.8mm! Makes it rather simple put that way, huh?
Billy Dixon was at the Adobe walls fight along with Bat Masterson,and the range 1538 yards.
That's about 4615'... damn near 9/10ths of a mile
I don't care what someone's shooting.... if they can hit that, I'll call it a mile hahaha
The US .30 cartridge was actually introduced in 1903 with a round nosed 220 grain bullet. However due to Mauser success with spitzer type bullets the US Army soon adopted a 150 grain Spitzer for the US .30 cartridge in 1906, hence the moniker 30-06! Cartridge science and history is fascinating stuff! Great videos Ron, well researched and informative.
I appreciate you Ron, thank you for your awesome videos.
I've been a hunter since 1977., at 57 this year and have taken over 100 game head and 99% were whitetails.
I believe the top 3 cartridges are the following
30-06, 308, n 270.
You can do no better.
22 long rifle probably has taken the most game. Whitetails included.
Thank you for this video. Very interesting.
I do not know the reason for complaints about the Hornady ELD-X bullet. Here is one data-point: The 212-grain version in my Browning X-Bolt Stainless Stalker chambered in .300 Win Mag did a splendid job on a Muley at 300 yards.
The 6.5 cartridge has been around for many moon's! 6.5-55s Then 264-win mag also 6.5 Rem mag.
As an aside, I have a friend who just bought a new fire stick. He bought a Kel-Tek Forward ejecting Bull pup rifle in .308 Winchester. Using Barnes 150 grain bullets he gets 1.5 inch groups for an average of 5 shots and he plans on using it for Deer, antelope and Elk. It shoots groups that are twice as large as my .270 but still closer than needed for big game hunting. I thought it was really ugly but after shooting it, I decided it was a lot nicer looking after all. He bought it after stalking an elk in Idaho and his 7MM Rem mag with a 24 inch. By the way, he stalks in his stocking feet and always gets a monster elk! I can understand his reasoning, but this is a really uuuughly rifle, His statement is "Beauty is as beauty does". While it may not be as Handsome as my Remington 700BDL, I guess he has a point.,
“.30 caliber of (19)52” 😂 my guess before it starts.
Survival rifle, AR15. Take with you a 22lr conversion kit (cmmg) and now you have 2 great options 1 rifle
i like the barrel length conversation with 300blk when you get into sbr lengths you can gain fps because of the fast burning powder but this is a specific case...im not trying to pick apart anything. thank you for all the other info you provided.
As a handloader I agree with you that barrel length and gain/loss of velocity is not the same in all cases. As Ron mentioned as well, it depends a lot on case capacity and the type of cartridge. A large bottle necked rifle round that uses a very slow powder might be greatly affected by shortening the barrel by only 2 inches while a rifle cartridge like .300Blk or .300 H'MR that are essentially large pistol rounds using a fast burning powder may be less affected by a shorter barrel, and with some powders, may even achieve more velocity with a shorter barrel.
Black powder can equal almost any cartridge on the market today. The concept is pounds per square feet, so if you have a .75" chamber neck to .32" caliber bullet/barrel combination the velocity is over 3000 fps. This system is not used (but possible) because the powder charge is critical or you have a bomb.
For a survival gun, I think a combination gun like a Baikal MP94 or Savage 24 could be a good option. Chambered in 12g & your choice of centrefire, say, .308 you could hunt just about anything. Bird/rabbit shot for the smaller game (we found #3 rabbit shot best all round with decent range), buckshot, slugs, and a capable rifle.
Always liked those. Baikal made a 9.3x62 over 12 ga, plus 30-06, 308, and i think 7.62x54 (makes sense) and even 6.5x55. Baikal products were banned from importation by executive order i believe, due to political problems with Russia. Always wanted one, or a Savage in, most likely. 30-30 over 20 ga. Those seem to be the most common. Allegedly they made 308 over 12 ga, but i have never seen one. Second choice would probably be the 223.
One gun debate!
Mr. Spomer, you've probably shot more guns than I have but I've shot a lot and I own a lot and I mean a lot. I mean A LOT. (You would have fun in my gun room, some are OLD, REALLY OLD, and a dash of modern. Like BIG HORN ARMORY stuff. And a few customs.
But the one gun debate would have to go to the good Old 30-06. It can take any critter on North America and it doesn't have massive recoil. Apparently light recoil is a problem for the one gun debate.
Personally if I only had one gun it probably be either my 300 ultra mag or my 375 ultra mag. Even with mercury tubes. They aren't exactly recoil sensitive. Though, lately, I have had a lot of fun and success with my 270 WSM.
LOVE THE videos!
The difference between the different 38-40's, was between either grove or bore diameter in the nomenclature.
That sounds right, sir.
I really think the .22 is the hunting king of firearms.
Ron, such a meek spirit, thank you for blessing me and my family with all you offer. God bless you! Keep up the great work. 🤗👍
Better wipe that crap off your nose. 😅
@@jacktrout5807 Unnecessary!
@@ClanChapman super necessary. " Jorge Masvidal"
@@jacktrout5807 Wow! Was that a broadside using an obscure reference to an MMA artist who, I will bet, knows next to nothing about the subject of this video! Or are you just a troll?
@@ClanChapman I'm the troll? Your coming at me 9 months after the fact. Did it take you that long to come up with that response?
This week's Ron Spomer's Outdoors 308 vs the world, Ron never disappoints!
Never disappointed me for over 50 years.
I've been enjoying you for years. I'm glad you are on the net to inform the people like me who don't know everything about everything. I have been an outdoorsman for 30 plus years, but I still like hearing from someone who knows more than me. Keep up the good work, sir.
The 12 GA has been around since the 1700's . the Brown Bess was a 75 cal . Smooth bore . That could shoot a round ball or shot .
Ron, thank you for being you. you have done wonders to my personal advancements in my understanding.
Thank you, Ron, for correctly pronouncing the word "long-lived". The "i" is long, like the word "eye" sounds, not short, like everybody else pronounces it.
A friend in AK who was in Vietnam said he loved his m16 , he oiled it liberally . He was tired of lugging the m14 & all that heavy ammo .
One of my choices for apocalyptic survival rifle would be 22mag over 22lr ..
1000 rounds only weighs like 2.5kg to carry …
The .22 rim fire has killed more deer and still kills a lot of deer and other game. For center fire the .303 has killed a lot of game. Think Australia, South Africa, Canada, and many other countries.
That's what my guess is - that widespread availability across the old British Empire and low cost military ammo.
@@mwb3984Late to the party, but I just commented almost exactly the same thing. At the time of its adoption, the British Empire covered 1/4 of the world's landmass. It's still relevant in most of those former colonies today.
No doubt it’s the 22 rim fire! As child growing up in western Washington I knew an old hermit who lived off the land.He carried an old Remington bolt action 22 rifle that he used to take what ever he encountered.Small game,black tail deer,elk,Black bear.You name it!
I agree, the 22lr probably has taken more game than any other cartridge
As a 308 user who doesn’t own a 6.5CM at all, it’s silly to say the 6.5 doesn’t have many advantages over the 308, especially at longer ranges.
Also, Ron was a little off on the 300 Ham’r. It was Bill Wilson’s attempt to get 30-30 performance out of a AR15. He succeeded.
As a long time 30-06 user the 6.5 Grendel is something special. Don’t know why so many hunters are stubborn on it
6.5 is a puny round that's fine if you want to hit paper at a distance. If you want to make a bigger hole and carry energy it's way more ethical to use the 308.
@@PeterOldschoolbeyond 400 yards the 6.5 creedmoor carries more energy and velocity than .308, the exact distance will of course vary a bit depending on bullet selection
@@lumpyzx2645 Thats my point. You take a 168 match 308 and lets say a 137 gr 6.5, the energy is about 1450 for both at 400... Id rather make a bigger hole at that range instead of shoot pencil holes and have to rely on punching bone for shock trauma. Now if you stretch out beyond 400, a nice 175 gr 308 will outshine. More ethical.
@@PeterOldschool what if you're shooting say 1000 yards? Also shooting any medium size game beyond 400 yards or so with either one is unethical, I shot a deer at 320 with a 243 (90gr ppu soft point muzzle velocity 2750 with 18" barrel), very clean shot and the deer made it 10 feet before it collapsed, heart and single lung, projectile expanded nicely, but that was further than I wanted to stretch that particular combo out. It was the last day of season and the sun was going down, I knew I could make the shot so I took it, but realistically speaking your best performance is going to happen with the projectile moving 2200+fps due to hydrostatic shock exceeding the elasticity of tissue. 6.5 creedmoor is going to be going that fast further out than 308, but at that distance the 308 will still be carrying more energy so it's kind of a toss up. They are both (well, all 3, 243 as well) fine cartridges and all more than enough to take medium size game such as deer at any reasonable distance. They all have their own advantages and disadvantages. As a 6.5 creedmoor guy I'm starting to lean more toward 243 and 308 myself, but that's mainly because both of those do what the 6.5 excels at pretty well yet have other advantages that I personally find more appealing. Yes, thinking back I think I would have preferred to go with a 308 instead of my 6.5 creedmoors, but I'm happy with the 6.5s as well and very happy with my 243. The argument between 6.5cm and 308 is pretty much all semantics unless you compare the actual important differences. 6.5 is better at long range but 308 is still very good at long range, and 308 has a much longer barrel life. A similar argument could be made between 308 and 3006, because a 300 win mag is to a 3006 what a 3006 is to a 308
I doubt that the perfect, all-around cartridge exists. While the .22LR has great utility, there are so many tasks for which it is just not suited. With appropriate hand loads, most .30 cal rifles can suit just about anything that North America has to offer.
Thank you for your great videos.
165 gr boat tail Hornady SST works great in my 280 Remington NEF rifle 1 in 10 twist.
Ron, please don't forget the venerable 6.5 Carcano. Can't discuss 6.5 mm cartridges without mentioning it. It has enough power to kill whitetails. My Uncle tells stories about that hunt. The deer died, but it wasn't from hydrostatic shock. The problem was that the front sights were knocked off of Surplus Italian rifles after their surrender in WWII. Soldering a replacement is problematic.
The M16 and its descendents were called Mattelamatics because they looked like toys.
I served with an honest BATTLE rifle called the M1 Garand and .30-06 cartridge. I was not impressed with either the M14 or the .308 Winchester cartridge.
Ron i have disagreed with you in the past. I like that you take it so well and dont get upset.
I do agree with you on the 22lr.
Powder is up to $50+/#. Primers are $100+/1000 and good luck finding any.
.303 British I have to say. It is already documented as the number one cartridge for animal counts in Africa and the fact that the cartridge is so old and EXTREMELY widespread WORLDWIDE with the British empire. I don't think that there is any other candidates to consider.
Did you write this in the 50's 😂
.303 was and is ubiquitous throughout the 'commonwealth' so add to Africa, India and Australia
@@thisISaPENn just sit back and think about how expansive the british empire was and and how long all of those territories used those rifles in their military's and private use for many years after. the british empire covered one third of the entire planet remember.
If you limit it to game animals killed, 8 would not be surprised if the 303 British is near the top, due to the Empire in its heyday and its lingering influence after WW2. It's a good cartridge, ballistialcally much like a 308 with geavier bullets. I have heard stories of people eho were in British Army or otherwise in colonial areas doing cull hunts with SMLE's. The ammo was miltary ball with the tip simply filed off to expose some lead, and it worked well enough.
It was called Adobe Walls, so named for the roofless ruins of a house, trading post, or some sort of structure, so the walls gave pretty good cover.
300 Hamm'r is interesting as a somewhat specialized cartridge. In my AR-15 hating state of Kalifornia, i would be reluctant to put a diff caliber upper on mine, in case i got checked by a warden. The "assault rifle" rehistration includes chambering and barrel length, so I haven't even bought a 223 varmint upper for mine (16" Bushmaster). I was only able to buy it vecause i was a working cop for 21 years, and we had exemptions. But we still had to register it with DOJ and pay a fee. There was talk about making us surrender them when we quit or retired, but i think they realized we would probably win court challenges for deprivation of property. Plus retired or former cops are not going to be the troublemakers. They can and have stopped the troublemakers. STAY SAFE!
You got the .300 ham‘r confused with the .300 blackout. It is similar to the blackout in design (a .308 bullet in a shortened and necked up .223 case), but completely different in purpose. The blackout has the case shortened to 35mm and can go up to 220gr for subsonic fire (which it is designed for) with 110 - 150gr options for supersonic fire, while the ham‘r has the case shortened to 40mm and only has supersonis options from 110gr to 150gr and is meant to be equivalent in performance to the 30-30 Winchester in an AR-15.
funfact: .300 ham‘r barrels have twist rates from 1:13 to 1:15.
Also, designed so that you can convert your 5.56/.223 AR-15 with only a barrel change (and maybe a gas tube). ua-cam.com/video/u69ZzdZni28/v-deo.html is worth the watch.
Well I know this is 2 months old while I'm watching this video which I believe I already watched it because the thumbs up was already highlighted and I'm at the point where watching the video about primers and honestly I can't tell you. The last time I saw large rifle primers for sale anywhere. We have small rifle, small rifle magnum primers, some pistol primers which they just start coming about in the last four or five months. But I still can't find large rifle primers. Which I'm assuming. Well I guess I shouldn't assume because it's the 556 and that's a small rifle primer. So why are the small wife of primers available and not the large rifle primers are not available. Your guess is as good as mine. Like you said, the military comes first!
About most game taken… put me down for ~500 with a 20g, 10 with a 30-06, 10 with a 12g, 10 with a 22lr, 1 with a 450 marlin, 2 with a 270 weatherby. And I would count my 22lr as pest control more than “game”. The bow is probably the answer, even though it’s a different conversation.
High expansion ratio cartridges like the .338 Federal or .358 winchester do better in short barrels than the short magnum smaller bore ones.
Something about short barrels vs long.
With iron sights the longer the barrel the longer the sight radius. Its easier to be accurate at long range with a longer barrel..not all that important with the use of optics
Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls 👍😎
something a gun maker come up with. sends to gun sports writers so they give good reviews and gun makers can sell a bunch, 10 yrs they quit making them in that caliber, because people will keep buying, 308 win, 7mm08 rem, 270 WSM, 300 WSM
Yep, same old story, same old carousel.
I like how you included the WSM’s 😂
Billy Dixon. Recorded shot that was over 900 yards. Pretty good shot with a Sharps!
22 rimfire all day long. Predates most other cartriges used by most people most of the time for most animals and game.
I heard that you can fire a 6.5 Creedmoor blindfolded, and still kill elephants at 12,000 yards.
But who put that blindfold on the elephant?
What further shrouds getting good numbers on ammunition is the reloaders.. Not all 308 or 223 shot is factory made, yet all rimfire is so sales will be high with .22 lr. You can only guess with centerfire types.
It was Billy Dixon that shot the Indian off his horse. A medicine man got them riled up over a dream he had and they jumped the San Carlos rez. It was Kit Carson's crew of Hunters that they tried attacking at night but one of the roofs beams broke waking them up thinking it was a gun shot thus ruined their surprise attack. But I might've gotten that wrong as well because their was 2 battles fought at adobe walls. Anyway thank you for your entertaining channel about hunting and cartridges its a fun topic that some pople get way to serious about. Shoot and hunt with what you like as long as it's legal. It's more about the doing and memories than the equipment used.
38-40 or 38 WCF was a 40 caliber bullet. The 38-55 was a .379 inch bullet, I have one.
I think I finally came up with theory that explained all the different name. It involved a lot of beer and liquor.😀
(as in.... "Let's start drinkin' while we come up with the name")
A quick internet search says that US SOCOM adopted 6.5 CM as a precision rifle option in 2018. Sig won the next squad auto contract with the 277 fury (6.8x51), but it has a proprietary case: “hybrid three-piece cartridge case has a steel case head and brass body connected by an aluminum locking washer to support the high chamber pressure of 80,000 psi.”
SIG has since switched to a two-piece case. They figured out how to get rid of the locking washer (they have an illustration of it on the side of hunting-ammo box). Although SIG's technology is proprietary, others are working on cases that can handle that pressure. If you look at the LICC 6.5 cartridge, you will see Shell Shock's case, which uses thin stainless steel steel walls to slightly increase propellant volume.
Call me old school. But bolt actions are suposed to get the most out of a cartridge. Carbine barels are for lever, pump and auto loaders. Thought they knew.
Love my 16” bolt actions great in the bush with a suppressor on the end
I don't think so, Doug. Bolt actions have been built with short barrels for many decades. And lever actions have often been built with 24" barrels. Regardless the action, the longest barrels are considered rifles, short are carbines. 20" is generally considered the dividing point. No hard and fast rules.
One of the limitations of black powder that I've heard about is a rifle's inability to ignite excessive quantities of black powder. . In other words unburned powder sprays out of the rifle barrel. So you would work up a load to regulate your rifle by observing how much unburned powder sprayed out over the snow. You then backed off the load until there was no more unburned power left on the snow.. Sounds reasonable.
By the knight 52 rifle with the power stem breach plug. It burns the powder from the front of charge to the back that's why it's such a Lethal heavy bored black powder. 150 g of 777 loose black powder, 375 grains Barnes X bullet equals 2,400 ft per second
30/06 is a real gun! 308 is junk! I am older now and have bad shoulders, so I went to the 6.5 creedmoor, that I love!
Millions of 1 shot killed plains game untold elk deer bear moose would beg to disagree with you about the .308 but they are well dead.
🤣Ron, don`t worry, we are all full of "IT ", but it is only trip to toilet to sort that out...!!! I like to learn more of all stuff about hunting and rifles, you never get over educated. Military brat from Finland...!!!👌👌👌
My father has a old reloading manual. That says. The 303brit has taken more big game around the world. More than any other cartridge . Then it explains. The 303brit has wounded more game than any other cartridge because of the sheer amount of rifles built than sold on the world market. Also the sheer amount of military rounds sold with them. So many people use the fmj rounds hunting. So that one has me wondering.
I've got that same old Manuel and have read that part myself
I think it's his old Hornady book but I may be wrong it's either Hornady or Speer. I can't remember which one.
Being from MS, i can confirm that public land in the SE is a headache. Luckily i have friends and family that have land.
Public land around here can be downright dangerous. You have the bullies, the idiots, the thieves, and everything in between.
The key is apparently to go WAAYYY BACK.
It's just not worth the risk of being shot by some idiot, or getting in a fight with some stranger in the woods. A lot of these guys think that they own the public land, and you are constantly having people walk up on you.
We have a problem with poachers on private land, but at least you know who is supposed to be there and who isnt.
I have a buddy in Bude (about 30 miles from Natchez), and he finds guys from Louisiana making themselves at home on his property every year. I'm talking stands, food plots...the whole nine.
300 Ham’r was developed by Bill Wilson at Wilson Combat Inc. It is more powerful than 300 Blackout and works in AR-15 rifles.
Straight-walled laws are perpetuating more of these designs, not just “more power over caliber-x”.
Well with vista outdoors selling of its ammunition production to the Chekzs we may experience more shortages according to some. And to those who might be up about my spelling or name of the company I say meh.
That’s exactly right. The powder was dirty, and it plugged the gas system up.
A .30-06 with a 20" barrel might as well be a .308
Closer to a 30-30
Depends on which powder I use.
Perhaps short guns with reasonable length of barrels leads one to a single, double or combination gun in Europe. You do not shorten the length of the barrel but the length behind the barrel. A Drilling with a 24 inch barrel is about as long as an repeater with a 20 inch barrel. My drilling has one 7x57 and 2 x 12 gauge. I have a mortise barrel for the right shotgun barrel, so I can go out with 2 x 7x57 and 1 x 12 gauge in a very handy gun. The whole length of the gun is 101 cm, or 40 inch.
Around the world? .303 British gets my vote. This cartridge was developed in the 1880's when the British Empire covered 1/4 of the Earth's landmass and is still relatively popular in Canada and other countries today.
Ron I suggest instead of your patron getting a 30-06 at 20 inch hed be better of with a .308 and a 18 inch barrel and then look at hand loading with a powder getting towards the burning rate for a .308 'hand rifle / pistol' with 16" barrel that will get you with a close to 140gr close to 3000ft / sec out performing the 30-06 with a 20" and the rifle will even be shorter... NOTE ! find a proffesional custom hand loader to advise on powders and loads ... densities etc !! Dont try it on you own at home .... well if you love your fingers and eyes that is ...
The M-16 is a good rifle, the problem with it was Robert Strange McNamara- Springfield Armory told him that the gun needed some tweaking before being issued, though he knew better and well they shut down the Armory for budget reasons. Yes, there were some issues with the ammo and training. but all of that was pretty much sorted out by 1968. The Rifle was fielded a bit too soon. It's a good rifle once all issues are worked out. Robert Strange McNamara was an incompetent boob that was a numbers guy and would not listen to anybody that knew more that he did. He should have been jailed but LBJ sent him over to the World Bank to screw that up too.
Ron I have 30" barrel 25/06 I hunt yotes with but I'm 6"10 and 400lbs that gun feels like a match stick in my hands
Good point Donn ha ha ha. Thats why I can't understand the naming of the 7mm-08. It should be 7x51 or just 7mm Remington
The 7mm-08 was a popular wildcat before Remington got it SAAMI certified. For wildcats, it is common to name the bullet caliber, then refer to the parent case, like .25-06 or 6.5-284.
The conservation statement. Yes, deer like a particular type of habitat. However, the rat deer (whitetail) is taking over the mule deer habitat. Muley’s are bigger and taste much better. It’s sad that we are losing them to whitetails.
Three Zero Eight has a nice ring to it 😹😹😹
That was a good point! The .3 Zero 8 was the civvie version of the military 7.62 NATO cartridge. I think I shall start calling it by the correct digit instead of letter. 🙂
To be honest I think the 12 gauge has taken the most game because of the versatile
30.52 sounds like a 308 Winchester....
Here I thought it was some kind weird wild at that never took off.
@@hammerheadms ... The letter c is on the bottom row, just above the space bar.
Writing competently requires paying attention to what you're doing, whether it be with a keyboard, pen or pencil.
I had to put unnecessary effort into reading your entry because you didn't take the appropriate steps to be clear.
I won't be much surprised if you pull the old arrogance of saying that I understood it. Well, I didn't understand the gibberish from reading it, so it became necessary to analyze what you might have meant from the possibilities and the overall subject matter. Maybe some readers who are new to firearms won't be remotely familiar with the term "wildcat" as applied to cartridges. As such, your words would only come off as gibberish or "word salad."
@@JW...-oj5iw hey, English major, why don't you write me a book about texting on my device with fat fingers? I would encode another message you can't you "can't understand" but that would be futile, so I'll just say go back under your bridge, and mind your own business because I clearly wasn't writing to YOU anyway.
303 British has to be up there for animals harvisted , used for over 100 years in all over the Commonwealth, was very popular hunting cartridge in Canada , Britain, Australia and many African countries.
Ron, is it pronounced “Adobe Walls”, or “Adobe Wells”. I’ve heard it pronounced “Adobe Walls”. Just being curious. Thanks! Keep up the good stuff! Also I’m tickled PINK the military is actually using the .260 Rem versus the 6.5 Creedmoor as the Remington cartridge has more case capacity, headspace, bullet leads, head space, etc. I was on the .260 Rem before I’d ever heard of the Creedmoor. Yeah, it does everything Hornady claims but you better stick to “X”, bullet weights, powder charges or it won’t do it. Also you just can’t get a large enough group of usable rounds to justify having it & the .260 Rem. Just get the .260 Rem & enjoy a much broader use of bullet weights, powder charges, etc. Imagine if the .260 Rem had a name like “the .260 Richter”, or the .260 ARC & so on.
Yes, Scott, it's Adobe Walls. And the shooter was Billy Dixon. No matter how many times I read that I fail to remember.
What is with the “nature (or function) of the trigger argument? If I pull the trigger once and ONE round fires, and I have learned to wiggle the rifle such that I can fire it more rapidly, did I just create an imaginary bump stock?
Unless you’re a practice range fanatic. IMO just buy earplugs. I’ve used them my entire life (70) on not only guns but carrier flight decks; airport tarmacs and production line machinery. My ears are fine and the FBI/ATF isn’t watching me.(I think?) At $1.00 a day/week it does it well.
Keep it simple, eh? I agree, but sometimes a shooting opportunity arises quickly and one has all he can do to set up and make a solid shot. Digging for and inserting ear plugs results in missed opportunities. At least has for me. And wearing plugs all the time dampens the hearing of everything except your heart and breath! No perfect solution.
Carbine length barrels add muzzle flash problems to the noise in your ears... 22" is "Safari" length... & short-action Ammo helps keeping things "compact": 30.06 does not offer a great advantage over 308 up to 300 yards shots...
To Mo-Man,
If rifle season in your area gets "Geeked Out"...
I recommend muzzleloader and/or bow season. Most people that you encounter are likely serious hunters. (and much fewer of them)
Charles doesn’t know his history very well, the issues the m16 had were caused by colt and the government cheeping out on the chrome lining and ammunition. The extra energy at 1500 yards is also a load of BS as the military consideres the 308 a 700m cartridge and moves to thinks like the 300 Norma and 50 big for the extended engagements. The 6.5 creed does see some military use in specialized units in place of the 308, because it’s better in every applicable way at the ranges it’s being used.
We use .300 Win Mag
Another great pod cast...👍❤️👍
The fact that our 2 biggest Primer manufacturers aren't even US owned now probably will not help.