This may come across as overly blunt (because tone is hard to “hear” in text); but I’d say the main difference between the expression of American vs Canadian nationalism boils down to the “root”. Canada wasn’t born of a war for independence from the mother country. It didn’t emancipate itself quite so early nor so … emphatically. The USA was more like the “strong willed youth” that separated from their parents with mixed feelings and therefore went out of their way to “forge an identity” and then dig deep into that constructed identity to distance themselves from all the other European nations … while still behaving exactly like a European nation where imperialism was concerned. As for the “Christian” element-I have to concur with the first commenter. We were never a Christian nation. Many of the first colonists were Christian, sure. Many weren’t. Much of what we know from those early years has been mythologized-which means it’s a mix of fact and fiction (neither all fact as the right hold sacrosanct, nor all fiction as the leftists insist). A good majority of the Declaration signers were deists, not Christians by Biblical standards (John Adams was one of the outliers in this as he was an actual Christ-follower, as far as we can tell-and as a result, he was constantly butting heads with his peers). Also, there is something to be said for unpacking the differences between what is “culturally Christian” and what actually defines a follower of Christ.
Awesome as usual. Such an important topic. Glad you got the guy to repeat the point about disengagement and privilege. Respect for your humility at the end too. I feel echoes in this of the discussion you touched on a week or to ago about how the use of the word 'Gospel' had shifted in the Southern Baptist church specifically, and would love to hear more analysing where that shift has come from. I think the 'christian nationalism' movement is very much alongside that (I use the phrase in quotes as I see it as an oxymoron), and it overflows in all sorts of areas.
What a heartfelt, timely and perhaps long overdue discussion! As a citizen of the United States, an attorney and Constitutional scholar for the past thirty years, I must chime in and support it! The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. If you're not an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants, you must be Native American and that is indeed a sad history for which we have yet to make amends. along with our Canadian brothers and sisters. Although the way of Jesus is an exemplary one as practiced by those on this podcast, truly good and faithful Christians, the U.S. was never founded as a Christian nation and in fact our founding fathers expressly designed our government, as stated in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, to include all faiths--including the absence of faith--and expressly forbids favoring one religion over another. Thus, while it would be lovely if everyone followed in the steps of Jesus, the United States cannot be Christian any more than it can be Muslim or Jewish or atheist or any other religion. The separation of church and state is there for a reason, so that we wouldn't be dragged down by zealots of one religion or another to follow only its teachings and fight one another as many are doing today over issues of faith which can never be solved except by love, respect and acceptance of and for all.
I came across a short reel by an American living in Germany. She compared the English language wikipedia about the Pilgrim Fathers - people seeking a refuge from religious persecution - with the translation of the German wiki - religious extremists travelled to the new world. Just an interesting thought. The stories told about any group of people of faith is always a spin. The truth being in the muddy middle
28:40 I would like to point out that the Three-Fifths Compromise wasn't about assigning humanity, but was a practical issue regarding whether slaveholders could use their slaves to inflate their influence in the House of Representatives (and by extension, the Electoral College) without giving them the ability to vote. (At the time, Northern and Southern states had similar populations, but Southern states had a much larger proportion of their populations enslaved. However, lest anyone think this is the misreading of modern liberals, Jefferson Davis made the same claim in defense of slavery and secession in his farewell address to the Senate in 1861: "When our Constitution was formed, the same idea was rendered more palpable, for there we find provision made for that very class of persons as property; they were not put upon the footing of equality with white men--not even upon that of paupers and convicts; but, so far as representation was concerned, were discriminated against as a lower caste, only to be represented in the numerical proportion of three fifths."
Well, and if you got taught from BJU curriculum, there were probably a number of factual errors (there were when I saw that stuff years ago and I don’t know if they’ve bothered to fix them.)
When Jesus talks about the end times he says these things must happen. Then talks about wickedness of the world causing many peoples love to grow cold. But those who.keep the faith will be saved. That mens to continue to love. We don't fight the wicked, fear the wicked, we love and try to spread the good news of freedom to the poor, oppressed. To those who Jesus would hang out. Love is always the greatest
just starting the video - the whole Christian Nationalism stuff, especially in US is scary. Mainfest destiny, plus the inherited British Israelism idea (apologies from this side of the pond) and a racial aspect leading to 'Christian nationalism' . The idolatry of the 'Pilgrim fathers' - despite that they were only a small proportion of early colonists - and promoting myths that Washington dedicated the nation to the Christian God (despite the number of deists signing the declaration of independence) I think that when people can claim that their Christianity can support political leaders using profane language, admitting to morally inappropriate behaviour, as 'they are for our values' then we are in dangerous territory. Even here in the UK , where it used to be that a politician caught out in a lie would have to resign, now has them defending their stance. Once we get a polarised situation whereby 'our guy' can commit all sorts but because on our side is good; and believe no-one with faith can possible support the 'other side', then it is dangerous territory. In the UK I see left wing politics as a more natural fit with the challenges Jesus gave us; but I have to learn that conservatives also can have faith and see different ways to respond to national and world issues. I can argue my politics but cannot claim that people of faith with a different view are in some way unchristian. And that is with a state affirmed church, but where politicians claiming faith are seen as partisan. A totally different context. What I see in the last 10 years in US is that it has become Christian right and evil leftists as being of the devil. When we reach the stage of no longer merely disagreeing about how to manage a society, to labelling the other side as evil devil worshippers (and the Qanon claims against the left are old world blood libel in new clothes) then I get very scared for the future of my fellow humans across the pond but also the impact on world affairs. And 80 yr old Biden vs 78 yr old Trump in 2024, and the apparent lack of of other viable options, is not encouraging.
I had one thought that i wanted to share about the assertion that people who opt out of politics are able to from a position of privilege because the system is working for them. That may very well be some people's reality. I'm not disagreeing that that happens. In my experience, i tend to opt out due to feeling hopeless in regards to politics. Neither side will serve me, and I don't see any point in getting too worked up over it. I know a lot of people in lower socioeconomic levels that dont participate in politics because it doesn't matter who gets in power, those people arent there with altruistic ideals they're there to help themselves and their buddies. As an American, I identify as neither democrat or republican. When you're poor, neither will help you. I do still vote, but i always struggle with that because neither candidate is going to make a positive difference for me or anyone in my class. I remember when Obama was elected. He did more to hurt black people than some of the white republican presidents 🤦♀️ it feels pointless and nearly everyone i speak to about it thats in a similar socioeconomic class as myself says the same. As an upper class white man, I can totally see how opting out is done out of privilege. However, as an any colored person of lower socioeconomic class, opting out just makes sense because your vote doesn't matter and the candidates are not going to do good things for you anyways. It sounds bleak as i write it out, but the Bible does say we will always have poor people in this world. My hope is in Jesus not in politics or some man people vote for. I loved this episode, and it really made me think. I am going to read the book!
Loved this discussion! As a side note, my admiration for you only increased when you apologized for teasing the reviewer’s grammar. I used to be a huge judger of grammar as a teenager since I’m a writer and I’ve had to relearn those lines of thinking, too. Poor grammar isn’t an indication of poor character or low intelligence!
James 1:27 in Other Translations 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Totally against Christian nationalism however situations we encounter are hard to handle. Franklin and Billy Graham may have said what you said they did. However, I know some of the story of Billy Graham and the civil rights movement. When he was put under pressure to have segregated seating he refused. He could not preach the gospel and have people separated. Billy also asked Martin Luther King Jr. if he wanted him to march with him. Pastor King told him to keep preaching the gospel. Franklin Graham may have said what he did when Floyd was murdered, but who among Christians has done more for the marginalized people across the world. This just means that it is hard for any of us always to speak to all the hard situations we encounter and express the totality of what we actually believe. Right now you are having to apologize for your own response last week. I have had to do that in my life too.
This may come across as overly blunt (because tone is hard to “hear” in text); but I’d say the main difference between the expression of American vs Canadian nationalism boils down to the “root”. Canada wasn’t born of a war for independence from the mother country. It didn’t emancipate itself quite so early nor so … emphatically. The USA was more like the “strong willed youth” that separated from their parents with mixed feelings and therefore went out of their way to “forge an identity” and then dig deep into that constructed identity to distance themselves from all the other European nations … while still behaving exactly like a European nation where imperialism was concerned.
As for the “Christian” element-I have to concur with the first commenter. We were never a Christian nation. Many of the first colonists were Christian, sure. Many weren’t. Much of what we know from those early years has been mythologized-which means it’s a mix of fact and fiction (neither all fact as the right hold sacrosanct, nor all fiction as the leftists insist). A good majority of the Declaration signers were deists, not Christians by Biblical standards (John Adams was one of the outliers in this as he was an actual Christ-follower, as far as we can tell-and as a result, he was constantly butting heads with his peers).
Also, there is something to be said for unpacking the differences between what is “culturally Christian” and what actually defines a follower of Christ.
Awesome as usual. Such an important topic. Glad you got the guy to repeat the point about disengagement and privilege. Respect for your humility at the end too. I feel echoes in this of the discussion you touched on a week or to ago about how the use of the word 'Gospel' had shifted in the Southern Baptist church specifically, and would love to hear more analysing where that shift has come from. I think the 'christian nationalism' movement is very much alongside that (I use the phrase in quotes as I see it as an oxymoron), and it overflows in all sorts of areas.
What a heartfelt, timely and perhaps long overdue discussion! As a citizen of the United States, an attorney and Constitutional scholar for the past thirty years, I must chime in and support it! The U.S. is a nation of immigrants. If you're not an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants, you must be Native American and that is indeed a sad history for which we have yet to make amends. along with our Canadian brothers and sisters. Although the way of Jesus is an exemplary one as practiced by those on this podcast, truly good and faithful Christians, the U.S. was never founded as a Christian nation and in fact our founding fathers expressly designed our government, as stated in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, to include all faiths--including the absence of faith--and expressly forbids favoring one religion over another. Thus, while it would be lovely if everyone followed in the steps of Jesus, the United States cannot be Christian any more than it can be Muslim or Jewish or atheist or any other religion. The separation of church and state is there for a reason, so that we wouldn't be dragged down by zealots of one religion or another to follow only its teachings and fight one another as many are doing today over issues of faith which can never be solved except by love, respect and acceptance of and for all.
I came across a short reel by an American living in Germany. She compared the English language wikipedia about the Pilgrim Fathers - people seeking a refuge from religious persecution - with the translation of the German wiki - religious extremists travelled to the new world.
Just an interesting thought.
The stories told about any group of people of faith is always a spin. The truth being in the muddy middle
28:40 I would like to point out that the Three-Fifths Compromise wasn't about assigning humanity, but was a practical issue regarding whether slaveholders could use their slaves to inflate their influence in the House of Representatives (and by extension, the Electoral College) without giving them the ability to vote. (At the time, Northern and Southern states had similar populations, but Southern states had a much larger proportion of their populations enslaved.
However, lest anyone think this is the misreading of modern liberals, Jefferson Davis made the same claim in defense of slavery and secession in his farewell address to the Senate in 1861:
"When our Constitution was formed, the same idea was rendered more palpable, for there we find provision made for that very class of persons as property; they were not put upon the footing of equality with white men--not even upon that of paupers and convicts; but, so far as representation was concerned, were discriminated against as a lower caste, only to be represented in the numerical proportion of three fifths."
Exactly! It is sad to keep hearing the misinterpretation proclaimed as true.
I got taught the American mythology instead of history. Thanks Bob Jones Uni.
Well, and if you got taught from BJU curriculum, there were probably a number of factual errors (there were when I saw that stuff years ago and I don’t know if they’ve bothered to fix them.)
@lisajohnson4744 Thank goodness my late husband was a real history buff. I learned so much from him.
I am from Alberta Edmonton, very proud to be here
When Jesus talks about the end times he says these things must happen. Then talks about wickedness of the world causing many peoples love to grow cold. But those who.keep the faith will be saved. That mens to continue to love. We don't fight the wicked, fear the wicked, we love and try to spread the good news of freedom to the poor, oppressed. To those who Jesus would hang out. Love is always the greatest
just starting the video - the whole Christian Nationalism stuff, especially in US is scary. Mainfest destiny, plus the inherited British Israelism idea (apologies from this side of the pond) and a racial aspect leading to 'Christian nationalism' .
The idolatry of the 'Pilgrim fathers' - despite that they were only a small proportion of early colonists - and promoting myths that Washington dedicated the nation to the Christian God (despite the number of deists signing the declaration of independence)
I think that when people can claim that their Christianity can support political leaders using profane language, admitting to morally inappropriate behaviour, as 'they are for our values' then we are in dangerous territory.
Even here in the UK , where it used to be that a politician caught out in a lie would have to resign, now has them defending their stance.
Once we get a polarised situation whereby 'our guy' can commit all sorts but because on our side is good; and believe no-one with faith can possible support the 'other side', then it is dangerous territory.
In the UK I see left wing politics as a more natural fit with the challenges Jesus gave us; but I have to learn that conservatives also can have faith and see different ways to respond to national and world issues. I can argue my politics but cannot claim that people of faith with a different view are in some way unchristian. And that is with a state affirmed church, but where politicians claiming faith are seen as partisan. A totally different context.
What I see in the last 10 years in US is that it has become Christian right and evil leftists as being of the devil. When we reach the stage of no longer merely disagreeing about how to manage a society, to labelling the other side as evil devil worshippers (and the Qanon claims against the left are old world blood libel in new clothes) then I get very scared for the future of my fellow humans across the pond but also the impact on world affairs. And 80 yr old Biden vs 78 yr old Trump in 2024, and the apparent lack of of other viable options, is not encouraging.
I had one thought that i wanted to share about the assertion that people who opt out of politics are able to from a position of privilege because the system is working for them. That may very well be some people's reality. I'm not disagreeing that that happens. In my experience, i tend to opt out due to feeling hopeless in regards to politics. Neither side will serve me, and I don't see any point in getting too worked up over it. I know a lot of people in lower socioeconomic levels that dont participate in politics because it doesn't matter who gets in power, those people arent there with altruistic ideals they're there to help themselves and their buddies. As an American, I identify as neither democrat or republican. When you're poor, neither will help you. I do still vote, but i always struggle with that because neither candidate is going to make a positive difference for me or anyone in my class. I remember when Obama was elected. He did more to hurt black people than some of the white republican presidents 🤦♀️ it feels pointless and nearly everyone i speak to about it thats in a similar socioeconomic class as myself says the same. As an upper class white man, I can totally see how opting out is done out of privilege. However, as an any colored person of lower socioeconomic class, opting out just makes sense because your vote doesn't matter and the candidates are not going to do good things for you anyways. It sounds bleak as i write it out, but the Bible does say we will always have poor people in this world. My hope is in Jesus not in politics or some man people vote for. I loved this episode, and it really made me think. I am going to read the book!
Loved this discussion! As a side note, my admiration for you only increased when you apologized for teasing the reviewer’s grammar. I used to be a huge judger of grammar as a teenager since I’m a writer and I’ve had to relearn those lines of thinking, too. Poor grammar isn’t an indication of poor character or low intelligence!
At 42:25 . 🎶Everyone talking ‘bout Heaven ain’t going there !
James 1:27 in Other Translations
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Totally against Christian nationalism however situations we encounter are hard to handle. Franklin and Billy Graham may have said what you said they did. However, I know some of the story of Billy Graham and the civil rights movement. When he was put under pressure to have segregated seating he refused. He could not preach the gospel and have people separated. Billy also asked Martin Luther King Jr. if he wanted him to march with him. Pastor King told him to keep preaching the gospel. Franklin Graham may have said what he did when Floyd was murdered, but who among Christians has done more for the marginalized people across the world. This just means that it is hard for any of us always to speak to all the hard situations we encounter and express the totality of what we actually believe. Right now you are having to apologize for your own response last week. I have had to do that in my life too.