Man, this is amazing info. I’ve been struggling with this since learning to use my hips properly. I’ve had every problem you talked about at some point 😅😅
@@aylarue1536 let me know how it feels when you try it! I had to revisit it / put extra focus on it multiple times to feel like I really started taking advantage of it.
Don't know if this way is wrong or not but it has helped me to relax rest of the arm if I keep shoulder out and down. So it's very good to hear someone thinks the same, thank you. Maybe some day I'll understand what Coach said😂hope it happens sooner than later.
One tip/swing thought I've used to moderate success with regard to this is to think about pointing the back of the rear shoulder at the target during the coil. Focusing on the back shoulder seems to force scapular protraction while incorporating your line
Love the videos! It’s nice listening to some else that thinks the same way I do about disc golf. A super interesting biomechanical puzzle for making a disc go far and accurately. I would imagine that I’m dragging the disc next to an edge of a tall table infront of me for straight shots. I didn’t think that I was doing exactly what you explained.
This makes so much sense and I just recently noticed this without understanding exactly what it was. Luke Taylor has a recent slow mo video on his Instagram. The protraction he displays when he is pulling through is very pronounced. I knew when I saw it that it was something I was not doing but didn’t quite understand what I was looking at. Can’t wait to give this a try, I’m bad about swooping the disc.
@ Yea check it out and tell me what you think. I screen recorded it so I could slow it down even more. When you freeze it on his pull through you can really really see it.
Pleasure talking with you about all this out in the field the other day. Disc golf would benefit from a lot more bio mechanical explanation, Nick Krush touches on it here and there but these sorts of explanations could really help a lot of people. A lot of folks just don’t know what scapular protraction is so using the word without showing the meaning isn’t helpful. A lot of pro disc golfers probably couldn’t tell you what it is either even if they are actively doing it to power their throws.
Yeah that’s why I mentioned that bit about if you learn stuff intuitive you might not even realize you are doing it, which is probably the case with many pros. Definitely heard nick and blitz talk about it directly, but usually it seems like when it comes up it’s more indirect like ‘make space’ or a drill that may get you to do it but it’s usually not very directly focused on with a lot of attention.
You’re doing good stuff, Neil.. ty! I saw your very nose down video, and have been jealous of those throws since:) I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow.. I get it.. thanks!
Could just be me, but while I’ve found the conscious scapular protraction helpful at one stage of my form development, I think it’s a hinderance to throwing farther. I think the correct method to avoiding collapse of the pocket is keeping space between the elbow and the body, and learning how to prevent early rotation. The throw that can feel controlled and relaxed will always go further than a throw where you are consciously flexing a muscle.
If it’s true that you shouldn’t have as much of it later in advanced form I think it’s still a useful step for feeling how to create space, and like I said in the vid. I’ve focused on it a lot all the way up to 69.7mph so it’s been enough for 500 feet for me, but maybe beyond that I’d have not be so strict with it.
I agree this particular topic hasn't been focused on much, and I think for myself my scapula is somewhat retracted, on top of me throwing more upright (even when I am trying to hyzer tilt).
I need help and pretty sure I don't do any of this correct. I am pretty good with up shots because I have no power. This sounds like great advice for me thanks Neil.
Neil, scapula protraction happens at full reach back by nearly all good throwers. The initial force application is from scapula retraction at the instant of change of direction. There is nearly zero scapular protraction in good players as they enter the power pocket because of the initial retraction. This has been measured extensively. The power source, going into and out of the power pocket comes from horizontal abduction.
Maybe this issue is more present in players who aren't starting out protracted. As someone with a weak spot in this area, I think I'm not even doing that. So my arm never goes from protracted to retracted at the shoulder in any part of the throw. Maybe there needs to be that transition to make this work.
Coach: What is "change in direction" here? My apologies for not knowing the answer. Is that going from backswing to swing? Or is this something mid-swing. Say going from in to out. Thank you in advance!
@@NickCarroll what I’m trying to emphasize is to focus on the timing of upper arm horizontal abduction from the beginning of the pull. David Wiggins barely gets to even 90° from pull to power pocket. His horizontal abduction is happening from the instant he applies force. He goes from near 90° to 150° at release. GG is about 165°. Get your arm moving faster than your shoulders can rotate. Make it feel like it is leading your shoulders.
This is great stuff! I've been trying to work on this and the discussion and exercise here looks and feels like it'll help a lot. I think getting this right will also help in staying behind the brace. I seem to keep getting on top of my brace when I retract (pull) my shoulder but when I protract that just doesn't seem possible and I naturally try to stay behind my brace more to get power. Thanks!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
I have been aware of this for a long time and I can do all this without the disk and even with rubber bands, against a tree and when I practice swing. It still can't do it well as soon as I get a disk in my hand and try to throw. I think my problem is timing, I think I have to throw "faster" than I actually need to and this just immediately leads to collapse. When I focus on throwing slow, that's when things start to come together.
Yeah you probably just gotta do lots of reps at that slow speed where you are able to do it to build up the muscle memory and then only slightly increased the speed and do lots of reps again and keep repeating that progression until you start having problems, then go 1 step down in speed and do more reps. That’s the most reliable method I feel like to introduce a new form change, but sometimes you get lucky or have a good coach that can find a cue that really connects with you and get faster results. Check out my vid a few back ‘experimental collapse cues’ where I try some stuff related to this on a friend. Perhaps having the visual markers (discs lined up on floor to think about a wider protracted swing path line to follow) might help.
Hey Neil I’m traveling and can’t do field work with this yet. Eager to know if you or other subscribers think this can help overcome muscling the pull throw and straining the shoulder. I have been fighting this habit for years keeping my shoulder hurting and I fear injury if I don’t correct strong arming the disc. Thanks!
I think it could help with that but it all depends of course on what other issues you have and how you practice to break and form habits. For example, if you don’t coil or brace well, you might not feel like you get power without arming the disc, so this might not help a lot in that case since you don’t have power from other places. However, if your coiling and bracing is decent then I think this could help feel less need to arm the disc, but to actually break the habit you’d still need a lot of practice probably. Like throwing slow lots of reps with this scapular protraction feeling and gradually increasing the speed until you can do the new form at higher speeds. Side note, I think if the arm is in a good position, trying to arm the disc for BH isn’t all that dangerous if it’s not already damaged / limited. I don’t really feel that much added strain when I’ve tested more arming cues for a while, but if your elbow is pinned to down and to the side then arming the disc is cranking way too much on external rotation. And if your arm is injured / limited then you may still need PT and training even if you fix form.
Neil, I was always thinking why I have such a powerful one hand backhand in tennis and don’t seem to transfer to my disc golf backhand.. After watching your video it might be that with a heavier object the scapula protraction is done more naturally or by default ..have to watch some Wawrinka video to confirm ..
Seems to be diff in one hand bh topspin swings where horizontal collapse is pretty normal and doesn’t seem to be an issue. I have a short pickleball 1HBH topspin swing comparison a few vids back and I have some initial horizontal collapse in pickleball. When warming up with the pickleball paddle for DG though I try to swing more like my DG throw though.
Good luck! Let me know how it goes even if it’s a struggle. As always, when actually starting to throw with it, it will probably take lots of lower power reps to get used to it and build the new muscle memory depending on how used to changing form you are. This definitely helped me break 400 for the first time and then I felt like I had learned the lesson, but upon focusing extra on it again it helped again to get me more consistently throwing 400 and touching 450. Of course I’ve worked on many other things but it was one of the most important for me since the rest of my form was already decent.
@@disc-golf-neil I think this is really one crucial thing. The connection between the strong body muscles and the disc... Never really paid attention to this. I try to implement your nose down tips, too! I mean, somehow it has to be possible to throw 500..! Its insane, on how much thing you can concentrate, when u try to fix your form... your videos really give valuebale inspirations!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
@@julianseyal I think what I’m saying in this vid is can still be compatible with getting the arm ahead of the rotation. This mostly address how you can have some initial ‘lag’ that instead of collapsing and having the arm get stuck behind, you get a deeper stretch and no collapse and then after that initial rotation has happened and you are coming into a good spacious power pocket you can try aim to be more closed with the chest / shoulders not swinging open too far ahead and instead having the arm go ahead and focusing on abduction. I mentioned in the pulley exercise section that at higher weights you do have to start driving the elbow across the chest so that was kind of eluding to this. The biggest part to me is how to get a good stretch and survive the initial forces to get into a good pocket without collapse.
This is a great video. I can see now what others have tried to explain in the mechanics of the shoulder arm and torso.
Thanks, I knew some of this but not as in-depth as this. Very good.
This is the best discussion on power pocket I've ever seen.
Brilliant!
Man, this is amazing info. I’ve been struggling with this since learning to use my hips properly. I’ve had every problem you talked about at some point 😅😅
I have a feeling this is gonna help me out big time.
@@aylarue1536 let me know how it feels when you try it! I had to revisit it / put extra focus on it multiple times to feel like I really started taking advantage of it.
Great video. Very informative I will give it a try
I tried it and it was amazing. Looking forward to the exercises to help me stay in a proper position.
Good to hear. How did it feel different in your swings when you tried it?
Don't know if this way is wrong or not but it has helped me to relax rest of the arm if I keep shoulder out and down. So it's very good to hear someone thinks the same, thank you. Maybe some day I'll understand what Coach said😂hope it happens sooner than later.
One tip/swing thought I've used to moderate success with regard to this is to think about pointing the back of the rear shoulder at the target during the coil. Focusing on the back shoulder seems to force scapular protraction while incorporating your line
This was beyond helpful! Thank you! Going to try this myself tomorrow
I was just slumping over lol. This really made a light go off and definitely felt it on the wall. Thanks man.
BTW: no I have not heard this explained so fundamentally.
Love the videos! It’s nice listening to some else that thinks the same way I do about disc golf. A super interesting biomechanical puzzle for making a disc go far and accurately.
I would imagine that I’m dragging the disc next to an edge of a tall table infront of me for straight shots. I didn’t think that I was doing exactly what you explained.
Excellent video! When i syarted to work on this i saw an immediate change in the results of my throws and the speed from my techdisc
This makes so much sense and I just recently noticed this without understanding exactly what it was. Luke Taylor has a recent slow mo video on his Instagram. The protraction he displays when he is pulling through is very pronounced. I knew when I saw it that it was something I was not doing but didn’t quite understand what I was looking at. Can’t wait to give this a try, I’m bad about swooping the disc.
Oh sick I’ll, check that Luke Taylor vid. Can’t wait to see more of him in the upcoming seasons.
@ Yea check it out and tell me what you think. I screen recorded it so I could slow it down even more. When you freeze it on his pull through you can really really see it.
Pleasure talking with you about all this out in the field the other day. Disc golf would benefit from a lot more bio mechanical explanation, Nick Krush touches on it here and there but these sorts of explanations could really help a lot of people. A lot of folks just don’t know what scapular protraction is so using the word without showing the meaning isn’t helpful. A lot of pro disc golfers probably couldn’t tell you what it is either even if they are actively doing it to power their throws.
Yeah that’s why I mentioned that bit about if you learn stuff intuitive you might not even realize you are doing it, which is probably the case with many pros.
Definitely heard nick and blitz talk about it directly, but usually it seems like when it comes up it’s more indirect like ‘make space’ or a drill that may get you to do it but it’s usually not very directly focused on with a lot of attention.
Cool video, definently trying this in the gym later
You’re doing good stuff, Neil.. ty!
I saw your very nose down video, and have been jealous of those throws since:)
I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow.. I get it.. thanks!
Thanks. “I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow” 🤣
Let me know how it feels.
Could just be me, but while I’ve found the conscious scapular protraction helpful at one stage of my form development, I think it’s a hinderance to throwing farther. I think the correct method to avoiding collapse of the pocket is keeping space between the elbow and the body, and learning how to prevent early rotation. The throw that can feel controlled and relaxed will always go further than a throw where you are consciously flexing a muscle.
If it’s true that you shouldn’t have as much of it later in advanced form I think it’s still a useful step for feeling how to create space, and like I said in the vid. I’ve focused on it a lot all the way up to 69.7mph so it’s been enough for 500 feet for me, but maybe beyond that I’d have not be so strict with it.
I agree this particular topic hasn't been focused on much, and I think for myself my scapula is somewhat retracted, on top of me throwing more upright (even when I am trying to hyzer tilt).
Excellent video.
I need help and pretty sure I don't do any of this correct. I am pretty good with up shots because I have no power. This sounds like great advice for me thanks Neil.
Neil, scapula protraction happens at full reach back by nearly all good throwers. The initial force application is from scapula retraction at the instant of change of direction. There is nearly zero scapular protraction in good players as they enter the power pocket because of the initial retraction. This has been measured extensively. The power source, going into and out of the power pocket comes from horizontal abduction.
Where does the appearance of a rounded upper back during the pocket come from if there's no protraction in the pocket?
Maybe this issue is more present in players who aren't starting out protracted. As someone with a weak spot in this area, I think I'm not even doing that. So my arm never goes from protracted to retracted at the shoulder in any part of the throw. Maybe there needs to be that transition to make this work.
Coach: What is "change in direction" here? My apologies for not knowing the answer. Is that going from backswing to swing? Or is this something mid-swing. Say going from in to out. Thank you in advance!
@@NickCarroll what I’m trying to emphasize is to focus on the timing of upper arm horizontal abduction from the beginning of the pull. David Wiggins barely gets to even 90° from pull to power pocket. His horizontal abduction is happening from the instant he applies force. He goes from near 90° to 150° at release. GG is about 165°. Get your arm moving faster than your shoulders can rotate. Make it feel like it is leading your shoulders.
@@coach_chris_taylor Awesome, thank you!
This is great stuff! I've been trying to work on this and the discussion and exercise here looks and feels like it'll help a lot. I think getting this right will also help in staying behind the brace. I seem to keep getting on top of my brace when I retract (pull) my shoulder but when I protract that just doesn't seem possible and I naturally try to stay behind my brace more to get power. Thanks!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
I have been aware of this for a long time and I can do all this without the disk and even with rubber bands, against a tree and when I practice swing. It still can't do it well as soon as I get a disk in my hand and try to throw. I think my problem is timing, I think I have to throw "faster" than I actually need to and this just immediately leads to collapse. When I focus on throwing slow, that's when things start to come together.
Yeah you probably just gotta do lots of reps at that slow speed where you are able to do it to build up the muscle memory and then only slightly increased the speed and do lots of reps again and keep repeating that progression until you start having problems, then go 1 step down in speed and do more reps.
That’s the most reliable method I feel like to introduce a new form change, but sometimes you get lucky or have a good coach that can find a cue that really connects with you and get faster results.
Check out my vid a few back ‘experimental collapse cues’ where I try some stuff related to this on a friend. Perhaps having the visual markers (discs lined up on floor to think about a wider protracted swing path line to follow) might help.
Hey Neil I’m traveling and can’t do field work with this yet. Eager to know if you or other subscribers think this can help overcome muscling the pull throw and straining the shoulder. I have been fighting this habit for years keeping my shoulder hurting and I fear injury if I don’t correct strong arming the disc. Thanks!
I think it could help with that but it all depends of course on what other issues you have and how you practice to break and form habits.
For example, if you don’t coil or brace well, you might not feel like you get power without arming the disc, so this might not help a lot in that case since you don’t have power from other places.
However, if your coiling and bracing is decent then I think this could help feel less need to arm the disc, but to actually break the habit you’d still need a lot of practice probably. Like throwing slow lots of reps with this scapular protraction feeling and gradually increasing the speed until you can do the new form at higher speeds.
Side note, I think if the arm is in a good position, trying to arm the disc for BH isn’t all that dangerous if it’s not already damaged / limited. I don’t really feel that much added strain when I’ve tested more arming cues for a while, but if your elbow is pinned to down and to the side then arming the disc is cranking way too much on external rotation.
And if your arm is injured / limited then you may still need PT and training even if you fix form.
Thank you for the very thoughtful and thorough response. It gives me some things to consider!
Neil, I was always thinking why I have such a powerful one hand backhand in tennis and don’t seem to transfer to my disc golf backhand.. After watching your video it might be that with a heavier object the scapula protraction is done more naturally or by default ..have to watch some Wawrinka video to confirm ..
Seems to be diff in one hand bh topspin swings where horizontal collapse is pretty normal and doesn’t seem to be an issue.
I have a short pickleball 1HBH topspin swing comparison a few vids back and I have some initial horizontal collapse in pickleball. When warming up with the pickleball paddle for DG though I try to swing more like my DG throw though.
Hey, off topic, but what desk do you have?
Also, lol @ 3:57 😂
It’s from ikea. Large sit stand electric. Not sure if they still have this model. Not seeing it.
I haven't seen this much. I do think that I saw a pro mention this. I want to say it was Lucky, but I could be wrong.
Found it. Her first tip.
m.ua-cam.com/video/foYvNx5XozY/v-deo.html
@@brianc1651 holyn handley has a protiptuesday reel on IG mentioning to ‘bear hug’ in the pocket.
best d
I´m gonna try this tomorrow. When this helps me to throw consistant over 400 I will paypal you 50 bucks!
Good luck! Let me know how it goes even if it’s a struggle. As always, when actually starting to throw with it, it will probably take lots of lower power reps to get used to it and build the new muscle memory depending on how used to changing form you are.
This definitely helped me break 400 for the first time and then I felt like I had learned the lesson, but upon focusing extra on it again it helped again to get me more consistently throwing 400 and touching 450. Of course I’ve worked on many other things but it was one of the most important for me since the rest of my form was already decent.
@@disc-golf-neil I think this is really one crucial thing. The connection between the strong body muscles and the disc... Never really paid attention to this. I try to implement your nose down tips, too! I mean, somehow it has to be possible to throw 500..! Its insane, on how much thing you can concentrate, when u try to fix your form... your videos really give valuebale inspirations!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
@@julianseyal I think what I’m saying in this vid is can still be compatible with getting the arm ahead of the rotation.
This mostly address how you can have some initial ‘lag’ that instead of collapsing and having the arm get stuck behind, you get a deeper stretch and no collapse and then after that initial rotation has happened and you are coming into a good spacious power pocket you can try aim to be more closed with the chest / shoulders not swinging open too far ahead and instead having the arm go ahead and focusing on abduction.
I mentioned in the pulley exercise section that at higher weights you do have to start driving the elbow across the chest so that was kind of eluding to this.
The biggest part to me is how to get a good stretch and survive the initial forces to get into a good pocket without collapse.
I sent you a email, nice video btw!