@@deschaingames1851 Meh, melee is pretty bland in general. Most of the time you just see people going "I attack twice". Adding "I use GWM to attack twice" doesn't make it less bland, same thing for bonus action attacks. The problem goes deeper than just weapon types. But at least changing the feats to something more flavourful instead of just power creeping would be a good start.
@@andrewkennedy5946 probably more sensible than the +10/-5 tbh, i've seen people like the Dungeon Coach recommending that variant of the +10/-5 features
I like the idea of that rule, but I think it creates the inverse problem where i don't see any reason to go for a greatsword anymore. Imo, something like +10/-5 for 2h, and +7/-5 for 1h seems reasonable
@@chopcooey This might be getting carried away (which homebrew often does) but you could also use the house rule where you add 1.5x your Strength modifier to heavy weapon damage rolls. That would keep the "big-ass weapon" feel while still allowing the power attack house rule for all weapons, but does give a bit of overall power-creep
@@jthompson7024 1.5x isn't particularly overpowered, while having a good playfeel to it. That's only +1 or +2 damage in most cases with 5E's limit of 20 in an ability score without special higher level play exception options, and has been in previous generations of officially published rules.
I added a versatile weapon fighting style as an option in my games that when wielding a versatile weapon, gives a +1 to damage, +1 to AC if wielding it with 2 hands, and the ability to grapple or shove as a bonus action if wielding nothing else. This still leaves it non-optimal for damage as it's about tied with dueling, but gives a flavorful utility option (that shouldn't be broken as it's just a part of the shield master feat) to make using the weapon feel unique rather than just a strange unexciting middle ground
That seems like a bit of an inconsistent power boost compared to other fighting styles, especially gaining a new bonus action option. The most you get is a reaction feature like from Interception/Protection.
I kinda like this, actually! It would fit better in a game where encounters forced you to use the open hand more to climb, hold a portcullis open, pull a rope, and other such activities while fighting.
@@AnaseSkyrider I think it's definitely inconsistent in design but not quite in power. It was meant to give a unique experience and allow for characters that don't otherwise utilize their bonus action (which is all but required for a strong character) to do so without it being overly strong. Also keep in mind grapple and shove only work on creatures one size larger so unless you're a Rune Knight (and only some of the time), large creatures are the biggest this feature affects. The main goal was filling in a perceived gap and adding style and flavor for a fantasy that is iconic but somehow underutilized. The hero that wields a sword sometimes in two hands, sometimes with a shield, sometimes while holding an enemy back or knocking one down to finish them off or go for a more important target. You know, having a versatile weapon that's... versatile
@@jthompson7024 Perhaps instead of a bonus action, it could benefit grappling in a different way. A bonus to grapple checks, advantage, perhaps a grappling related reaction since reactions exist in Protection/Interception... Perhaps it could be said to be 'unique' to the longsword because it's a versatile weapon, but I feel like throwing in all these abilities depending on wielding shouldn't be the goal either. While not all that complicated on its own, it steals from a little bit of every fighting style in a way I don't quite like when all the other styles do something simpler but still unique. And ideally, the style should not try to compensate for the lack of supporting feats. I'd be more okay with bonus action grapples by itself or maybe a defensive reaction that works on yourself instead of others, reducing damage. 1d8+PB damage reduction, or 1d10+PB+STR if wielding with both hands.
The issue with the longsword, that in DND 5e it is a versatile weapon, that is not versatile. I played other systems, which are a bit more complicated, but put more weight on the properties of different weapons. Melee weapon range (Pike vs Dagger), weight and heaviness (for maneuvers which increase damage or accuracy) etc. had a much bigger impact on specific weapons. In such systems, the longsword is usually the most versatile weapon available, because you can swing it, stab with it, it is not too long but also not too short und you can use it more effectively to defend yourself than many other melee weapons. The result was that it became a generalist weapon. Were range matters, Pikes were good if one was severall feet away from the enemy, but terrible, if the Rogue already snuk up to you with his daggers, which are better in close range. On the other hand, light weapons like rapiers and shortswors are very swift and agile, while greataxes and greatswords are really heavy but therefore hitting harder. In most scenarios longswords were kinda the middleground weapon. There is always a weapon, that is better in certain scenarios, but the longsword just has the least weaknesses in all other scenarios. Now, I do not want DnDs combat system to become more complicated, because that would just extend lenghty combats even further. But it would be nice if the longsword would gain a property, that would make it truely versatile as a weapon.
I mean in terms of what is preventing longsword in one hand, shield in the other the real culprit is the existance of bonus action attack feats that completely outshine the dps and what that's done to the system Also i hate how in pf2e, a weapon being able to be used with either two or one hands means that it is worse at both, and same with multiple damage types
@@RobKinneySouthpaw That would barely change anything at all. In 5e slashing, piercing, and bludging are basically the same. The only difference is some obscure monsters that aren't used very often has resistances that matter. However, slashing, piercing, and bludging damage are all just lumped together as non-magical damage.
The sword nerds will tell you that the longsword was a sidearm used as a back up weapon or carried for self defense outside of battle and not a main battlefield weapon. That’s key to why adventurers might choose to use a longsword over other weapons. For the Exploration Pillar, a DM is well within his rights to ask a player to make Athletics checks at Disadvantage when the character is trying to climb, swim, or whatever while carrying a great sword in one hand. It might also affect the Social Pillar. Some cities or locations within cities might outlaw heavy weapons or at the vary least, openly carrying those sorts of weapons could attract unwanted attention.
As a sword nerd, that's exactly why my Paladin has a longsword. When fighting mounted with lance and shield it gives him the option to drop the lance and switch to a sword for closer combat. Fighting dismounted he also has the options of fighting sword and shield, longsword in two hands, or switching to a greatsword.
Depending on the era.* Migration era/viking era the frankish styled long swords were absolutely 1 handed main weapons. However thru were weighted differently(more weight to the end of the blade vs the hilt for later medieval long swords)and often were patern welded.(smarter way to achieve the same effect folder a sword over and over)
@@h347h Those aren't long swords. They are just swords, or "arming swords" if you need to put a name to it. Steel was folded a ridiculous amount of times to make up for it's inferior quality. An attempt to spread out/remove impurities/weak spots. A long sword is only a long sword because it is LONGER than the regular side arm. They came about as a combination of higher quality steel and forges and the improvements in armor so that you no longer NEEDED a shield. A long sword is a two handed weapon ALWAYS. A bastard sword is a "versatile" long sword.
@@h347h you can specify that sword A has a short hilt and cannot be used in both hands, so 1d8 only, and sword B has a long hilt and long crossguard and is difficult to use with a shield, so two hands only and 1d10
Sword nerds would be misinterpreting what “Longsword” means in DND. A DND Longsword is not long. It’s the weapon that was used with the shield for many centuries by many cultures
I am SO glad someone finally said “if you don’t like asking your dm for favours with home brew”! I came from 3.5 where there was a legit option for anything you could imagine and it can feel limiting in 5e sometimes
They removed so many fun options in this edition. Not mad about it just more curious as to why? and why focus on only heavy and ranged weapons of certain categories? I still play and enjoy myself though.
@@KnicKnac I only use a long sword. It’s the only weapon I use cuz I like shields. Shields are actually why long swords are good but their bonus isn’t to wage or action economy so optimizers over look it. I still regularly out damage my companions with a long sword. So I don’t actually think it’s as much of a problem as people act like it is
@@conradkorbol I'm more of a bow person, but yeah I enjoy a good one handed weapon and shield. Exception to this rule is my current paladin with a maul because smiting hammer.
@@KnicKnac yeah bows are awesome. I just don’t think optimizing is always optimal. My group doesn’t optimize. I my characters are usually way better than theirs. So I have learned to choose technically worse options.
@@KnicKnac I think that... 1: They removed a lot of options for simplicity's sake. They wanted to simplify the game so they did. (which is why most martial weapons seem nigh identicdal) 2: The focus on ranged and heavy weapons was probably completely accidental. Since Shield Master is supposed to be the PAM / GWM equivalent for sword and board fighters, but it just isn't.
I took a crack at this a while back. Here's my approach: The Board and Sword, or the Shield Master without Shield Master First, a Nov 17, 2015 Crawford tweet, a PHB Weapons excerpt, and the entry for Two-Weapon Fighting. Tweet: "An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such. A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise." PHB under Weapons: "Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance." Two-Weapon Fighting: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative." Custom Lineage 17 STR, 15 CHA, 15 CON, (CON can be 14 if a 10 WIS is desired) Dual Wielder feat for "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light." Class: Paladin. Level 12 will be our jumping point but 11 and 13 can also work. First we take the Attack action and make a melee weapon attack using our shield as an improvised weapon. In the moment of our attack, our shield is a melee weapon, satisfying the first condition for Two-Weapon Fighting because Dual Wielder has waived the Light requirement. Our other hand with our longsword is holding a melee weapon and thus can make a bonus action attack. Note that we cannot ever bonus action attack with the shield as it is only a melee weapon in the moment of an attack and not while just holding it. At level 1 our turn looks like this: Action: non-proficient Attack with Shield as improvised weapon. +3 to hit (because we still add our +3 Strength modifier) | 1d4+3 damage Bonus Action: proficient Longsword attack. +5 to hit | 1d8 damage (need the Fighting Style for TWF to add our Strength modifier to damage here, as a Paladin we get it at level 2) So level 2 we pick up the Two-Weapon Fighting style to make our bonus action attack damage a 1d8+3 At level 4 we pick Tavern Brawler to be proficient with our action attack and it bumps our strength up to 18 which means both our attacks have a +6 to hit and a +4 to damage. At level 5 we get extra attack. Note that only ONE of our attacks need to be made with the shield, so you can use one attack with the longsword and use the other with the shield to still use the bonus action attack. At level 8 we improve our strength to 20. At level 11 we get Improved Divine Smite for a +1d8 radiant damage every time we hit a creature with a melee weapon and we can look at our multiclassing options or we could take another level in Paladin to improve our Charisma score and a Paladin level after that would give us Find Greater Steed at level 13. If we're trying not to go too far below the baseline Treantmonk uses, we need these next 6 levels to put in some work. My choices are either 3 levels in Fighter for Rune Knight or dipping Genie Warlock. By level 17 I'll have both. Let's start with bumping up our Charisma and going Rune Knight for this example. At level 12 is a half-feat for +1 CHA. Fey-Touched can be picked up here for example which can be very advantageous. At level 13 1st level Fighter gives an extra fighting style. I would take Blind-Fighting as it can come into play more often at these higher levels. Dueling for the Longsword might work but I opt to bypass that conversation entirely. Level 14 gets us Action Surge and Level 15 gets us Rune Knight. Note that on rounds we first use our bonus action to activate Giant's Might we can skip using our shield to attack and just attack with our longsword as normal. This along with the extra d6 from Giant's Might if we land an attack helps offset the immediate loss of potential damage from not using our Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action attack and on our turn in the next round we can Two-Weapon Fight as normal while still benefiting from activating Giant's Might in the previous round. Level 16 1st level Genie Warlock gives us a short rest 1st level spell slot and the Dao's proficiency bonus bludgeoning damage to one of our attacks on our turn. That bonus is a +5 right now and will be a +6 next level. From here we could get another level of Warlock for invocations like Eldritch mind to protect our concentration which is not the best by any stretch, we could dip sorcerer for more slots. So the build ends up being roughly Paladin 11(12, or 13)/Rune Knight 3/Genie 1, and you can go up to Paladin 13 if you want your mount before jumping off as well as take more Warlock levels. A 4th Fighter level could give Resilient (Constitution) (good if 15 CON was chosen at char creation) and couple that with Genie 2 Eldritch Mind invocation to rapidly improve concentration albeit at a very late stage in the game. We attack two to three times a round, Rune Knight and Genie give us very reliable damage as we only need to hit once on our turn to apply affects such as Giant's Might, Fire Rune, and Dao's Genie Wrath and in the occasional case we miss all our attacks in a round, we have Action Surge in our back pocket as an insurance policy to still deliver that damage. Our smites also play a role in assisting our damage. From levels 2-4, we can save our smites for crits, generally using at least 1 or 2 on an adventuring day. Levels 5-7 we will be smiting a lot or finding ways our spells can be more effective than smites, even consider turning your Channel Divinity into a spell slot. Level 8 onwards about 4 smites with 1st level slots will be needed, maybe an extra one if the enemy succeeds on a save like the Rune Knight's Fire Rune Strength Saving Throw. All this assumes we are not fighting undead or fiends. If we're fighting those, then we're very happy as our smites are doing more, we don't have to use as many for the same amount of damage meaning more slots to use for our other spells. In summary, the answer to sword and board is Board and Sword.
@@Hidole555 I went to make this build straight after reading this as I thought it was super cool, still is awesome I've just got to figure out .y spin on it now
Just swap the paladin & fighter styles, maybe move the first level of fighter earlier in the build if you're really worried about it. Stad mod * hit percentage damage once per round, and even then only when you aren't using your action or bonus action on anything else, isn't that big a deal. Paladins are already arguably the best dual wielders, even without the fighting style (divine smite, improved divine smite, feat/asi starved, etc)
It's historical. Theives being one of the classes able to use magic swords was part of their early identity. 5e was afraid to remove anything 'iconic', so that vestigial proficiency remained.
I think there should be a rouge subclass that gets sneak attacks with any non-heavy weapon they are proficient in, something like a thug archetype. Maybe give them a bonus action frighten ability. If it’s to unbalanced, then any non two handed/heavy melee weapon would work fine.
In going through the classes, I feel like you glossed over Battle Smith, Beastmaster, and Drakewarden. All of these give us a Bonus Action attack via their companion. It's not the best damage in the world, but it puts those classes on the same level as a standard Polearm Master and you don't have to make extra investments. They don't work great for multiclass dips, but they're just fine for the primary class.
Clerics can also do something similar with spiritual weapon. And since the spiritual weapon can also be any form of the casters choosing, it can also be a longsword.
Something else worth mentioning that I left out of my original reply. Since there's no real drawback to using a small race with a longsword, you can also mount any of the companions the moment you get them(except the drake, which you can mount later on)
@@PedroHISilva Problem is; This is a level 11 feature. Basically every class gets something huge at level 11 If not access to 6th level spells; Its 33-50% increase in damage from a third attack (Fighter), +1d8 Damage to all attacks (Paladin), never rolling below 10 on skills (Rogue) Since your wolfs regular attack doesn't compete with an actual characters attack; Your Wolf getting a second attack is not very competitive Its attack does like, 10 Damage at this point - and isn't very accurate since you're either using classic Beast Master animal stats or relying on your spell attack modifier with the Primal Companion (Tashas)
In my opinion, the weapon and armor options in 5e are oversimplified. There is simply not enough complexity to justify the variety. And feats exacerbate the problem by making some weapons dramatically better than others. When I read the design, it seems to me that the original intent was to make one-handed melee weapons pair with a shield. In other words, give up some offense for extra defense. The shield master feat seems to support this concept. But in practice, this means that all one-handed melee weapons get the haft (pun intended).
I think Baldur's Gate 3 shows something that D&D 5 could adopt: each weapon type comes with abilities (like spells) that you can do with it, such as "pommel bash".
To me the appeal of the longsword isn't the damage it deals but the defence I get by taking a sword and shield. Sure I could take a spear and go polearm master, but if I'm already focusing on defence I might not want to devote a whole feat to increasing my damage when I could have taken something with other uses. Slasher might not deal damage but it does control the enemy to a degree. Healer, ritual caster, and the the various defensive fighting styles gives even more utility. All this while still doing better damage than a monk or a cantrip user, and with a higher AC and probably better hitpoints.
I agree with all of this except better damage than a wizard. Strictly single target damage a fighter might pull ahead, but especially at level 5 and up the wizard has options that can decimate entire encounters
@@jthompson7024 True a wizard built for damage does do more damage than a longsword. I was really only comparing it cantrip damage and assuming the wizard would use their spell slots for control spells. However that was a dumb assumption of me because a wizard could be using a spell like animate objects or dance macabre that deals significant single target damage. Longsword shield isn't a damage build like an evocation wizard. Its more for people who want to optimize damage with a one handed weapon while still taking tanking feats like tough and sentinel.
I agree, plus the cost of opportunity of getting a feat like PAM (to get a bonus 1d4+STR) is getting another feat (with defensive ability or other perks) or STR+2, which +5% to HIT and +1 to all attacks. So a Fighter with PAM at 5th level using a spear/quarterstaff with a STR=16, deals an extra 5.5 damage with the bonus action but uses a 1d6 for the 2 main attacks...If instead the fighter increase their STR by 2 (and use a sword), it increases their damage by 1 for the 2 attacks (hence +2), it already deals an extra 1 dmg per attack due to using 1d8 instead of 1d6 (for a total of +4) but it also increase both attacks chances to hit by 5%. So basically, by using a sword you're basically trading 1.5 damage per round for an extra 5% to hit...on top of that, if you use your 1st bonus action to cast Hunters' Mark, you'll deal an additional 2 damage on the 1st round using a sword, so it really takes more than 2 rounds to get even with a spear/quarterstaff with shield. Finally, good luck finding magical spears/quarterstaffs vs longswords...
Also Polearm master doesn't help at all if you already have a better use of your bonus action. Many Rangers (other than gloomstalker) utilize their bonus actions for spells, and subclass features. So Polearm master's Bonus action attack isn't great. Unfortunately they still fall off hard after level 10 because, like the monk, they only get their subclass features at level 11 while other classes are usually getting some sort of big boost (Barbarians are in this sad boy list as getting crap at that next tier of play).
@@Herbalizer28 Almost. Polarm master with the dueling fighting style is actually 7.5 damage with bonus action (they are still utilizing the weapon in 1 hand so they still get the +2 damage from dueling, this is the real issue and trick, damage add ons.)
Our table just lets PAM work with Sword and Board too, with the Bonus Action attack being flavored as a shield slam. Its still not optimal, but it does make it a lot more viable and fun.
You could also look at the Shield Master feat. It works with longsword really well, and I think @Treantmonk's Temple missed that in his Feat reviews here.
@@aquamarinerose5405 Its... • If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you using your shield. • If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity save made against a spell or other effect that affects only you. • If you are subjected to an effect which allows you to make a Dexterity save for half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage, interposing you shield between you and the effect. . The issue is when the Bonus Action shove happens. It's been Sage Advice'd to happen AFTER the Attack, but it's a bit mixed on of this can happen between multiple Attacks. It's not bad, as Shove can make the target Prone. It can be good for shield and sword builds.
Would've liked some more discussion on the smite spells that can be cast as a bonus action, but this was a great video for outlining the general options a longsword user has.
I think I would focus on the Shield Master feat if I was trying to make the Longsword work, and that requires finding a way to make the Prone condition stick. Maybe a Net to get restrained, then draw and hit with a Longsword? Hex could be used to give disadvantage on Strength rolls both to resist the shove and the Net. This requires more thought. Edit: I'm an idiot. Prone would be wholly redundant with Restrained. Also, Prone movement cost doesn't seem to work the way I thought it did.
I am surprised Shield Master never came up since Sword and Board is the iconic duo. Shove on BA means potentially free advantage attempt (maybe, see a certain sage advice) but at least if we've got another melee friend they can potentially get that advantage even if we don't. A 2-5 boost to all dex saves which is nice on it's own, coupled with the weaker evasion means we can be a fair bit tankier than most other melee builds.
I definitely agree that this video didn't really go over the benefit of having that extra 2 ac from the shield and the uses of the shield master. if I need to be the front line for my party, I probably don't want to take a polearm (except spear, but that is stupid and I cannot be fought on this) or gwm, because I want that extra ac. Certainly is also very useful in a game where feats are not allowed, and while our assumption is that feats are allowed, that is not every table.
I'd honestly go with shield master being focused on party tanking over the whole shove prone thing. 5e sorely lacks effective ability to actually use your defense to benefit your allies. Something like a taunt or a reliable attack interception is really what it needs over better personal defense and a so-so shield bash. Also I think they could expand on just one handed with an empty hand. A feat supporting it could give like thief fast hands, letting the empty hand do utility things with your bonus action to up your utility in combat. In this way sword and board and one handed solo fighting both have unique niches that don't just compete with heavy weapons for dps.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa One benefit of sword-and-empty-hand is that you can pretty easily try to grapple, without needing to stow a shield or sheathe a weapon or anything.
@@Hitlinemoss Sure, though I think you can do the same with most two handed weapons, as you can take one hand off like a polearm to grapple with and not have to also be stuck with just a long sword when not grappling.
I get that you start with "I want my character to use a longsword. How can I boost my damage?" But I would much rather look at character concepts that ask "what is the best weapon for this character concept?" And arrive at the longsword. Grapple based barbarian is a classic one. Attacking with a d10 while not grappling and a d8 when you are grappling is something only the longsword can do. If you go for a heavy weapon you would only be able to use it as an improvised weapon if you are grappling. The longsword is also the two handed weapon of choice for small races.
Attacking with a d10 while not grappling and a d8 when you are grappling is something only the longsword can do Warhammer and battleaxe would like a word
But a spear or quarterstaff gives up only one damage on this concept, which they will more than make up for with polearm master. You're still picking longsword for aesthetics & trying to make the most of it.
@@Malisteen you only get 1d4 once per turn; for 2 attacks per turn, 2d8 averages at 9 whereas 2d6 + 1d4 averages at 9.5; they're pretty similar at level 5 and longsword gets better at higher levels
@@vlungu You're leaving out the opportunity attack part of PAM, which will typically add a couple attacks per combat. Also, how does longsword get better at higher levels on a barbarian? If anything, spear/quarterstaff gets better at higher levels because you'll probably eventually have access to a magic weapon and PAM will multiply its effect - though admittedly if the DM rolls treasure at random you're more likely to bump into magic longswords than spears, so there is that.
I love when you make videos that are about how to make things like spells and weapons work best. There are a million channels reviewing latest books and ranking subclasses. Very few channels put together these kinds of videos that are actually useful as a player.
I like the magic item point, I think it's also good to know that your DM can sometimes offer magic items that aren't just straight upgrades or require a choice, like giving someone a worse type of armor but +2 or something can be kind of interesting. But on longswords I guess it makes even more sense if you are playing a module, because that way you aren't likely to change a characters sword that it wields into a cross bow or quarter staff (which tbh I wouldn't typically anyway, it feels weird for a weapon that in canon is a bit niche to be magical over the common and trusty sword).
I get what you mean, but this armour example won't work, since in the end you compare ac, not just armour types most of the time (so just slapping a +2 on armour will literally be either an upgrade, equal, or a downgrade, not a sidegrade) xd
@@АлександрСудаков-с2и yeah tbh not my best was somewhat off the top of my head, I just think the way to encourage build diversity is to offer benefits for taking alternative routes from the typical, meaning those changing stuff feel good, but those building traditional still get the options.
Idk but I prefer working to optimise characters (if I can obviously, I'm not the best) on the fly following benefits and options for the moment rather than always building to a specific goal and ignoring interesting opportunities for challenge in build making
This is coming from someone who played a paladin up to level 20 who focus on sword and shield. I don’t think focusing on damage is the best way to optimized characters. I think focusing on team work is a much more fun and interesting way to optimized.While my paladin didn’t have gwm like that fighter he did have something’s the fighter didn’t like the shield master feat. We had a lot of fun seeing the champion fighter used every thing he had on a prone boss. Crits on 19s even on 18s at higher levels,action surge, and gmw really melted bosses. Even our warlock joined in by casting hex giving them disadvantage to not be knocked prone. Dnd is a team game
You're correct, the best optimization is optimizing as a party rather than as individual damage output. Treating 5e as a combat mini game is a mistake.
This runs into another structural problem with the dedicated martial classes (fighters and barbarians, rangers to some extent).....they have diddly squat other than combat. They have no subclasses that make use of Charisma God Stat, or even Wisdom, just some shades on Intelligence, and no magic, so they universally suck compared to practically everyone else if you want to do something absolutely crazy and unreasonable like....open your mouth. So because the martial classes don't give you any way to more meaningfully engage with RP, you pretty much get railroaded into building on top of what you do get, which is combat. The whole game becomes a combat minigame because the megabrains at WotC loaded damn near everything into charisma, and gave you absolutely nothing to work with in your class features and other stats (because as we all know, Matthew Mercer with his huge charisma stat is definitely effortlessly more intimidating than *Mike Tyson* is). I can only do combat. Therefore, I should be the most combatty combat combatter who ever combatted. The way 5e is built to give the martial classes absolutely nothing to work with in terms of the RP aspects of the game creates a psychological hole for people to fall into, where they build on what they have instead of spending perks mashing social features into a character who will be frustratingly worse at it regardless. And so....the focus on doing as much damage as superhumanly possible.
Something I realized watching this video. Not relevant to most tables, but the longsword becomes much better if you're playing at a table that doesn't use the Feats rules, which are TECHNICALLY optional. So I guess if your table ever decides to try a no feats game, longsword becomes much more viable.
They are technically optional, but playing a martial character without any feats is incredibly boring. Feats are (almost) what balances martial and casters, it’s why fighters get so many. Personally I can’t imagine playing 5e without any feats, they are a big part of the game even if they are *technically* optional
@@bleddynwolf8463 there are also ways to get dex to damage in pathfinder 1e, either feats or being an unchained rouge. Although rouges can also sneak attack with any weapon in pathfinder, which made my barbarian rouge with a Lucerne hammer (basically a bludgeoning/piercing glaive mechanically) an absolutely machine in a fight. I made zombies explode
ב"ה With cleric domains you also have the death domain with the channel divinity that increase melee damage. Actually, I've seen a pretty powerfull Eldritch Knight 6/Death domain Cleric that did pretty well with a longsword (eldrtitch knight was for the shield spell and higher spell slots). At level 11 he got spirit shroud, at level 12 he got a second channel divinity, at level 13 he could upcast spirit shroud, at level 14 he got divine strike and at level 15 he got holy sword, so these were levels he got some decent things (though when facing multiple opponent he still used spirit guardians for his concentration, and the spiritual weapon did contribute to his damage too). Tough at our table, when we have 7-8 encounters in a day there are at least 3 options for a short rest (sometimes even more), so the channel divinity was probably more effective than it could have at your table where you run only 1 short rest in a day of 8 encounters (or at least how you calculate damage if you don't actually play this way).
I fully believe the math you ran on it, but as a player I'll never take GWM over sword and board. -2 AC from no shield? -5 to hit to gain the main benefit of the feat? Giving up an ASI for a feature that only effects your attacks? That said, everyone I play with has preferred a much more RP-heavy game and we rarely have more than one combat per session (in fact we've gone multiple sessions with no combat at all). It's always interesting to me how many different perspectives there can be on d&d and that all of them are valid.
I don't think I heard it in the video, but an upside of versatile weapons is that they can be used with grapplers. Two hand attack for more damage, then switch to one hand when grappling someone. Not sure if that helps though
If that longsword was a holy avenger then I might be tempted. Even then I'd ask myself if I couldn't trade it in for a holy avenger greatsword instead...
Great timing - I was just thinking about how to make a decent longsword build for a set of characters I'm writing up that are a group of adolescent monstrous kung-fu tortles. Looking forward to watching this after work
Baldur's Gate 3 went with the homebrew route. Different weapons have different extra abilities you can utilize with them and the longsword absolutely has a pommel strike option. I agree that reskinning is just... it just doesn't feel right. Great solutions offered here overall though
Thank you so much for delving into this! For the last week I’ve been wondering how to make a sword and shield type character in an effective manner, maybe doing something else, like tanking, enemy movement etc. while still doing at least a decent amount of damage.
I’ve been very vocal about the Trident in the past. It’s a damn shame it was left out of the Polearm Master feat. It doesn’t have anything unique to it whatsoever. I figured the Triton race would’ve been proficient with it and maybe even increased the damage die? Nope! Lol. You can throw it and pair it with the Artificer Infusion, the Eldritch Knight BA ability, or even the BattleMaster Quick Toss maneuver, but still very lackluster all together. I just wish there was a dedicated Retiarius subclass - the classic trident and net gladiator. So, please Chris would you mind dedicating a video to our boy the 🔱?
The trident is literally a step down from the spear, same damage, same range, same properties, but you need martial weapon proficiency and it weighs more if your DM is taking encumbrance seriously.
The trident was never an effective weapon. That's why it was used in sports entertainment- it looks cool, but it's not actually as deadly as a real spear.
@@aetherkid If you look at the way it was used in East Asia, like Korea, China etc they used it to hunt tigers. It's an area denial weapon and meant to make it harder to close the distance. It's also used in the Mandarin duck formation, try looking up the Muyedobotongji (historical Korean weapon martial arts manuscript).
On the point of magic swords tending to be longswords, I found it surprising as a player how many magic swords in 5e are greatswords, including some that historically are longswords.
considering greatswords in 5e don't have reach (they tended to be about the same height as their WIELDER), i'm about 90% sure wizards thinks greatswords are longswords
Optimization is not only all about damage and doing the most optimal damage. The longsword is just as viable a pretty much any other d8 weapon for characters that cannot or do not want to use 2 handed weapons. GWM is not an option for small races, as they cannot wield heavy weapons without disadvantage. So 1h Versatile weapons are great choices for them. Choosing a d8 weapon in order to gain the advantage of +2 or more armor class if your role is to draw attacks away from your allies, choosing a longsword is pretty optimal. Spear or Quarterstaff are valid options for sword/board characters and do allow you to take PAM for the bonus action attack; but attacking with your bonus action is not universally the optimal choice. It you are optimizing for damage it may be, but as I said, optimization doesn't always mean maximum damage. I don't think you make it clear enough that you are only referring to the longsword only being a problem when talking about its damage capabilities vs other options. Longsword + ShieldMaster can be very effective and potentially a more optimal choice, as it gives that ability to get the bigger damage die if you want/need to (assuming you don't have Dueling fighting style). Even with dueling fighting style, on a critical hit versatile > dueling.
You can also do a Shadowblade Bladesinger or Warlock. Flavoring Shadowblade as a Longsword is less of a stretch than reflavoring a Spear as a Longsword, for example.
I think the way to go is a custom lineage battle master with the slasher feat, 18 Strength, 13 Constitution, and 13 Dexterity at level 1 and the shield master feat at level 4. You could use a combination of trip attack followed by a shove to move them back 5ft. and run back out of range of their reduced movement or attack normally, use the bonus action to shove prone, then action surge to use pushing attack to knock them back 15ft. Get 20 Strength at level 6 to make sure you're hitting often and pick up Skill Expert at level 8 to get +11 on the Athletics checks (+13 starting at level 9) and round out the Constitution score. At level 12, pick up Resilient Dexterity to round out the Dexterity score and pair with the 0 damage on a Dex save feature of shield master. From there, you've got 3 more feats to choose from (maybe Lucky, Tough, and Alert, but there are a bunch of other good options) and other than that it's just more attacks and better bonuses on everything. You're not going to outdamage other fighters, but you're not going to get hit as much and you can keep enemies away from the rest of your party pretty well.
I definitely made a house rule for the Dual Wielder feat, so that it was playable, and people could wield longswords. It still falls behind GWM and PAM as far as damage. But I modified it so Dual Wielding doesn't take the bonus action anymore, and that allowed more flexibility for their builds, so what they lack in damage, they make up in versatility. It also allowed them to attune to 2 weapons as though they were only attuned to one, so they wouldn't fall behind on an attunement slot just because they dual wielded.
I think you missed three key advantages to Longsword that likely won't make their use top-tier, but they will do contribute to making a much better PC than you portray. 1) Using a shield - a shield is +2 to AC. This is basically "give your opponents a -10% chance to hit debuff". It's always on, and it uses no additional resources. This should get some recognition, because as you have said in the past, a dead PC does 0 DPR. 2) Shield Master Feat - in addition to bonus to Dex saves (+2 typically ... and you usually say that you like to make your saving throws, and Dex is a very common saving throw to have to make) and the ability to use your reaction to take half damage on a failed Dex save (no limitation on number of times you can use, beyond having or not having a reaction to use), the feat allows you to make the shove action as a bonus action. On a successful check, you basically can knock your opponent prone and gain advantage on your attacks. You touted the Archery fighting style over Dueling as +2 to hit is better than +2 to damage, and I agree. Advantage, simplistically, is +5 to hit. Yes, you do have to win an ability check, but you're a strength-focused character. You will be winning this check with the same consistency as spell casters using a spell vs any other DC check. 3) No dependency on Short/Long Rest features - The benefit of this is going to be campaign/DM dependent. I'm use to playing in situations in which you generally get 1 long rest per day, and 1-2 short rests per day ... and occasionally you come across scenarios where you go for a long time without resting, or you get the "you can rest here, but it's not really all that safe" from the DM resulting in the possibility of the rest being interrupted with a combat. At high levels, this usually isn't much of a problem for many rest-dependent classes (as you typically have enough resources to budget them out for most combats). But, at low or the bottom half of mid-level characters (which, as you often say, is where most people play their games), this can (often? depending on your DM) come into play. Yes, a Shield spell give you +5 to AC compared to a +2 AC with the shield, but you're burning a spell slot for that. It's not uncommon to see spell casters whittle their slots on defensive actions, only to be turned into a cantrip caster for the rest of the combat. Then after combat, their asking to take a rest, while your warrior roles his eyes and wonders why ... we just rested two combats ago. I know you often have the conversation between optimization and role play or fun ... but, I think sometimes you down-play survive-ability. Not always. You definitely have made some survive-ability builds, some which outshine the out-of-the-box fighter. But, if you're going sword-and-board, your top focus isn't on DPR; it's on survive-ability. I'm sure we've all seen a player at our table, whose character just died, and they're like F*** it, I'm getting plate and a shield on my next PC. Another great feat to consider for the longsword + shield user is Healer ... that way they can stabilize and wake up the rest of the party after the fight is over. At the end of the day, if spell casters aren't being force to expend spell slots on defensive mechanics, and the party can just rest whenever and where ever they want, then the DM isn't really doing their job (they're not making any challenges), and the types of benefits that come with a sword-and-board character become basically pointless.
1)Actually he talked about the shield... and as he said you could use a shield and a spear for example. 2) this is not a point for the long sword, its for the shield, like a shield and an axe (used by the "Vikings") shield and spear (Greeks and Roman armies used this all the time) or shield and mace (used in medieval times by priests and poor fighters when plate armor started getting more popular and cheap) or any 1 handed weapon + shield 3) again a shield argument, you haven't talked about the sword at all, just the shield that just to reinforce the point CAN BE USED WITH OTHER WEAPON THAT CAN BE USED WITH ONE HAND
0:28 I would say the problem is that he's using a shield and spear in the same hand. Either he forgot it when he calculated his AC or he's trying to slip something past his DM.
I’m currently trying to optimize the first D&D character I made about three and a half years ago. The game is a real slow burn, we’re level 4. I recently found out the magic Longsword my DM gave me at chargen is a Moonblade and I’ve just unlocked one of its four or five abilities. I’m a half-elf Hexblade. I’m thinking of making it my hex weapon, keeping my pact weapon (as a Longsword as well). I already have the dual Wielder feat (which I know is not as great as having a great weapon, but here we are). Next level I get Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite, then I’m gonna jump over to Fighter and pick up Two Weapon Fighting, Action Surge, (maybe) Battle Master with trip attack and then get Elven Accuracy. No one else in the group is very optimized, either and I think this will eventually make me an all right crit fisher, allowing me to do some burst damage with my smite. Can’t really think of a better use for my longswords, at least until I know what else my moonblade can do.
A character wielding a whip has 2 ranges for provoking opportunity attacks [both 10’ from the whip and 5’ for an unarmed strike or a non-reach weapon] -which could be put to good use on a rogue, paladin, war caster or sentinel build.
Great vid and lots of good ideas. You missed battle rager for barbarian sunclasses. Bonus action attack that can be made while sword and boarding. It's not a great subclass but it does synergise with sword and board, and does increase DPR. Shield master gives you a bonus action control option, and potentially increased damage to target if you or the party can take advantage of prone. Not optimal but it is control you can use every turn that isn't available with great weapons. As you've stated before, DPR is a blunt tool and misses a lot of the actual ebb and flow of combat. The minimum +2AC from shields increases time to die in many combats. In some situations one can do lower DPR but more damage per combat by staying on your feet another round or two of a 4 round combat.
The vid seems to define optimization as the ability to do damage but you can optimize in many different ways. You can optimize for social encounters, for exploration, and for Defense rather than offense. The longsword user is normally going for Tank options/defense with the shield. So the optimization should not be focused on how to improve their damage but on how to improve their defense and other tank related options: Sentinel, Slasher, Shield Master, and appropriate subclasses, etc.
Tanking in the traditional way we think of the term from video games is simply not a thing in D&D. There are various reasons for this: 1. Sentinel is bad because it only effects one creature. Holding down a single creature does not a tank make. If 1 creature is somehow strong enough to challenge an entire party, then the "tank" will not last long in melee with it. 2. Shield master is simply a poor feat. Shoving creatures prone as a bonus actions means your damage dealers with SS now have disadvantage. Simply halving a creatures speed isn't enough to stop it from getting up and continuing targeting party members that pose a threat. Which certainly excludes this "tank" as they do not deal an intimidating amount of damage via opportunity attack. If the attack does it, then the feat is still useless as it is redundant with sentinel. 3. The party members in the backline tend to have better defenses than the "tank", as shields, medium armor, the shield spell, absorb Elements, and the dodge action all easily out weight the benefits of a few more hit points a level.
@@Saikool64 your second point assumes the ranged allies have 0 other targets to hit like lol. also plate armor and a shield is 20ac far more then mage armor or medium armor will get you and absorb elements etc. require spell slots a resource which the shield item doesn't require. not to mention shieldmaster makes you amazing at dex saves one of the most common saves in the game. also high ac is the best way to face high dmg single enemies so your first point is weird. the dodge action being better then a shield is funny what a joke of a comment you lack a fundamental understanding of combat. another thing people dont realize is the dex addition from shieldmaster scales with +'s on your shield so a +2 shield gives +4 to dex saves its a super good feat.
If you want to be a defensive weapon user build, you could just use a one-handed polearm (quarterstaff or spear) with a shield and still take polearm master for the bonus action attack and occasional reaction attack while still getting the benefits of dueling if you didn't take defense. The longsword still wouldn't be close to the best choices for a build using a shield since it only does 1 more average damage on a hit (so it's 0.65 extra damage with a 65% chance to hit) and comes with neither of the two possible attacks that can allow you to kill the enemy much faster. Treantmonk actually did a spear paladin build one time: it's a pretty cool video outlining how polearm master and dueling and improved divine smite can combine pretty well to do great damage. ua-cam.com/video/nC3A76XahTo/v-deo.html
Polearm Master with a Spear or Quarterstaff is probably the best defensive option. PaM, Sentinel, and Crusher for use with the bonus attack are pretty obnoxious for overall defensive presence. The problem with most Strength 1h options is that Polearm Master works with Spears.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 and @Elizabeth Violet These are excellent suggestions but I limited my comments to the longsword cause that's what the video was about. Tho I would say that polearm master is better for the Sentinel/Reach attack combo than for the bonus action attack. That bonus action attack conflicts with the Shield Master bonus action shove, which can potentially be better for battlefield control for your tank. But it is nice to have the option for an attack if a shove isn't going to be useful.
An elegant solution for longsword is to take one of the "pet" classes. The BA attack by the pet, which generally scales well, solves much of the damage gap, and then together with the base classes (ranger and arti) give us a lot of little damage boosts and powerful utility that aid us contribute much more that just damage
I would have loved to see proper support for versatile weapons including the longsword, in both feats and combat styles. Oh, well. Maybe we'll see something in 5.5.
Ok, I thought about it a bit more, and here is my version of a Sword Master feat: When using a sword type (short sword, long sword, rapier, scimitar) weapon in making an Attack Action, you can make a pommel strike as a bonus action for 1d4 damage. Longswords are considered a finesse weapon for you. Once per round you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the damage of a sword type weapon. This bonus damage is doubled if using a longsword with both hands. I don't think that breaks anything, but would allow sword weilders to feel some love.
I think you might have overlooked one Feat/Fighting Style. Duel Wielding. The feat remove the restriction of only light weapons, so you can then duel wield Long Swords, and the Two Weapon Fighting style adds ability mod to Bonus Off-hand Attack. So, there you are, a Fighter in Full plate, with two long swords, possibly magical at that (Paladin can wield a Holy Avenger with a second magic long sword, or two holy avengers if DM feeling overly/insanely generous) with one or both possibly coated in poison.
Great information, I look forward to the followup. I optimize, my party not as much. For balance, I gave my tank a sword and shield to mitigate his damage until other characters catch up. I'm sure he'll end up with a glaive or some two handed weapon eventually.
Chris, while watching this video i dont believe youve said the words, "there's an obvious trade off here..." Dgmw Chris. I think what you do is highly admirable, I do! What i find over & over in your videos tho is the lack of reasons given why there's trade-offs in these rules. That said, i still enjoy & appreciate your efforts to find reason in a very vague ruleset.
Bring back an old favorite, Cleave, "On a successful attack you may use your bonus action to attack another opponent within 5 feet", or since people are using a Longsword to use a shield (usually), have a house rule that you can use your shield to make an off hand attack using your bonus action, without losing the AC bonus, so something like "You may use your STR or DEX to make an of hand attack with your shield, this inflicts 1D4 bludgeoning damage unless the shield is modified to do other forms of damage, shield bonuses apply to the attack and damage but you do not gain the stat bonus to damage without the 2 weapon fighting style, if you have the Shield Mastery feat you may attempt the push as part of this attack".
The problem with that is that lots of classes, subclasses, and feats give you access to bonus action features. Hell, even TWF would be identical. Cleaves really need to be free EXTRA, but lower, damage that is only applicable in AoE to give it actual power. I've been working on a homebrew for all the PHB weapons, and I gave this to a bunch of slashing weapons: Sweep: When making a melee attack with a weapon that has this property, choose another creature within 5 feet of the initial target that is also within your reach. You deal damage to that creature if the attack also would hit it. The damage value in parentheses appears with the property. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage, unless that modifier is negative. The values I gave were 1d4s and 1d6s. No ability damage, no bonus action, it's not another attack, just some extra die damage to another adjacent creature.
Thank you for talking about poison. Even if I think there were details missed or you downplayed certain parts. At least it was more than most youtubers would do.
I would like to make a small correction--yes, archery is the best fighting style, but ONLY if you have something like Sharpshooter to take -5 to hit and +10 to damage. If you aren't using sharpshooter or GWM, dueling is arguably better than archery. Here's some numbers: 5 str + d8 with 70% accuracy: 6.65 damage 5 str + d8 + 2 dueling with 60% accuracy: 6.9 damage If you get advantage, obviously it tips more towards the +2 to damage (8.65 damage for +2 to hit, and 9.66 for +2 to damage).
When I looked at making a longsword character, I did put together a 1 fighter/X undead warlock that, using grave touched and spells like spirit shroud, was mathematically able to consistently perform at that 50%+ above "baseline" damage benchmark with a longsword while still having the complement of warlock spells and invocations for fun party tricks in and out of combat, though the stat split undeniably complicated matters. Top damage, no, but a perfectly worthwhile and reliable combatant.
Looking forward to the follow up. I'd suggest making the comparisons to optimised options clear to set up a potential discussion about why longswords and by proxy other unoptimised choices are bad and what would need to happen to bring them more in line, especially while keeping the flavour of the weapons. I understand that most of the issue with other options is the lack of +10 damage feats and bonus action attacks, but other homebrew feat options for a different feel could also be interesting. Maybe an opposite, -5 damage +10 to hit, or things like doubling strength modifier or applying a debuff or extra damage, perhaps with certain conditions. I think that would make an interesting topic as part of this.
One of the most important parts of optimization, IMO, is to talk to your DM about how they're going to handle magic items and weapons. Please don't try to make them do it your way if they don't feel like it, but *do* pay attention and make your plans accordingly. I would argue that Polearm Master + GWM, for instance, is rarely the most optimal choice, because it is based on assumptions on what you're going to get. I'd roughly categorize the possibilities as: A) If they roll for magic items, or they just give out whatever is in the module they're running: go for whatever options are the most versatile. Chances are slim that the best weapon you're going to have is a hand crossbow or a glaive. And magic weapons are very, very powerful. A +2 longsword is going to give your optimized polearm master build a run for its money, even on a less optimized character. B) If they prefer to give out magic items that work with the choices you've made, but still like to vary it up, consider not pidgeon-holing yourself too much. If you choose Polearm Master, you might get a glaive, but you might also get a spear or a quarterstaff. If you throw on Great Weapon Master, only a few weapons will work with both, but you might also be pushing your DM's goodwill. C) If they let you pick your own magic items, or trade for them in magic shops, go nuts. Don't expect this, though, unless you've cleared it with your DM.
Yeah, I found myself in a similar situation, I planned on taking GWM, but luck gave me a magic shield and a +1 rapier, it doesn’t clash with my character concept so I’m rocking those instead.
@@alexinfinite7142 Hexadins do really well in particular, since the bonus action smite spells mean your bonus action can be used meaningfully anyways, you really want Warcaster for your early feats, and you aren't hurting for Pact of the Blade to get a 2 hander, so you can either bail out of Warlock early, or snag Talisman or Tome or something.
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I had a Sorcadin character Paladin 6/Sorcerer X that I wanted to be tanky (leaverage heavy armor and shield and the shield spell) as well as hard hitting (smites, dueling style and quicken spell on top of that for a bonus action booming blade from time to time). It worked out fairly well, and while multiclass options might not be in the remit, I think it was the first time I was legitimately 100% satisfied with my choice of longsword as a weapon (doesn't hurt for damage that I upgraded it later to a Flametongue).
usually i'm more of a lurker but since i was litterally working on something similar lately here's where i am (hope this can help and sorry for the long comment) this build takes time to actually "fix" the longsword (the earliest you can go is lvl 16, maybe 13 depending on how much you want to be nitpicking but you won't be useless in the meantime) the trick is all about being a hexblade and reach lvl 12 for the juicy lifedrinker invocation, this by itself gives you at least baseline dmg since...well hexblade IS the baseline dmg and eventually will grow to be on par if not better than a GWM by using lifedrinker+duelling+hex BA for a total of +10.5 without the -5 to hit and without having to spend ASI on feats (boosting our dmg and accuracy), so warlock 12 and fighter 1 is where you officially come online, at this point if you compare to a greatsword paladin you litterally don't miss anything, you got your extra attack, your smite and your extra on-hit (ofc you deal 1D8 vs 2D6), another level in fighter gives you action surge and 3 levels in sorcerer will quicken your booming blade (with 3 warlock 5th lvl slots you shouldn't run out of sorcery point anytime soon) even tho it comes online superlate at that point the DPR for your longsword is comparable if not better than your average GWM and untill then you can just play it cool by EB from range and flavor it like "you're not worthy of my blade" or whatever you like. the way i'm laying out the build (even tho i'm certain it can be widely improved) is: Harengon Race (we gonna use medium armor so proficiency to initiative and 1d4 to dex save is juicy, also nice bonus action usage) Urchin BG (i just like Urchin cause it let's you rogue without being a rogue, you can pick what you want tbh) STR 8 DEX 16 (or 14) CON 14 (or 16) INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16 (more on the weird DEX and CON numbers later) lvl 1-2: fighter (con prof, fighting style, action surge) untill level 3 you're bound to suck ass (unless you took the 16 DEX and use a rapier untill the moment is right), just take help and dodge actions in combat, use your CHA stat to be the party face and move to lvl 3, you could think of starting with sorcerer 3 (clockwork?) but imo if you want to get your hands on a sword before lvl 14 you want to start fighter lvl 3-15: hexblade (invocations) pretty self explanatory, it automatically gives you baseline dmg at range and duelling+hex is +5.5 "featfree" dmg for no accuracy penalty when in melee, reaching hexblade 12 is your goal lvl 15-20: at this point you can really do whatever you want, i like going sorcerer 6 for metamagic,spellslots and stuff but you do you ASI management: 6. +cha 10. +cha 14 and 18 you can really jerk off and do what you want, that's why i assigned weird DEX and CON stats, you could bring CON to 20 (starting with a 16) or you could bring it to 18 and take the tough feat, what i like tho (even tho it might not be "optimal") is to take the 16 in DEX early and take Medium Armor Master and Shield Master, this feats are not great but paired with our harengon traits and urchin BG (+cha based PG with good ranged and melee DMG) makes us one of (if not THE) most versatile builds in the game (if you want to do the 18 con+tough feat thing hill dwarf is nice too as a race)
At that higher level, one hexblade dip build I had most fun comes on at 7 sorc/1 warlock with elven accuracy. The thing I found key was just bonus action greater invis (which you can twin). In most fights, it gives you full time advantage on all hits (triggering elven accuracy) and gives everyone disadvantage to hit you (letting you stay in melee longer). You attack with the melee cantrips and since you can burn warlock slots for sorcery points you can have 2 per round (and with the high hit chance your DPR is pretty respectable). It feels gish to cast a spell and then move into melee with my sword and swing for another hit. It's not a build that will probably last 8 combats but in a campaign where we were only doing 1-4 fights a day this felt really dynamic and powerful. Bonus action haste added a lot too.
@@farsticks the build keeps respectable dpr but that doesn't make the longsword better, you could do the same build and eventually take GWM and use a greatsword while the way i'm proposing the build makes it so that GWM -5 penalty is a detriment because of the high on-hit dmg (basically in my build if you substitute a greatsword and take GWM your dpr actually drops lower when using the -5/+10 unless against super low AC) i know the way i wrote it sounds cocky af but english is not my first language and i don't know how to explain this properly
I once played around in a pvp server and I made a longsword wielding hexsorcadin and it was the strongest characteron the server. I was able to smite much more than a real character would be able to but I had a very strong ac and quickened booming blade filled my bonus action. And with smites my damage was comparable to a gwm character all while using elven accuracy
I need a weapon and shield fighter for a game a few years ago. He was going to be the ONLY front liner, so his ability to survive was crucial, hence the shield. I asked the GM if I could take the UA Brute as a subclass. He allowed it. In the game we were also allowed to commission enchantments on items (for an exorbitant cost). I got flaming put on my weapon. So I had my 1d8 base damage, a 1d6 for flaming and an extra damage die from brute (die depending on level). I got my strength to 20 quickly. The end result was that with my bonus attacks added, I was easily out damaging anyone else in the party.
In a campaign I'm in now I'm using a sorcerer/hexlock. Even with those classes I'm still focusing on my weapon. Buffs, invocations, bonus action booming blade. I'm doing my all to deal damage. And with the decent defense of medium armor, I do well.
Using a long sword and shield with the dueling fighting style gives you an extra 10% chance to be missed and an average damage of 6.5 plus whatever other pluses you get. Using a great sword with great weapon fighting style makes your average damage 8.33, and a greataxe averages 7.33, plus whatever other pluses you get. Great Weapon Master might be a big boost, if you can hit with the -5 to attack. That's an extra 25% miss chance, though. If straight up damage is the only thing you care about, then yeah, using a sword and shield isn't the best option, but you can't land hits if you're knocked out, and once you get into magical items, every plus on that shield is an extra 5% chance you're not getting hit, while every plus on the weapon is the same whether it's a longsword or two-handed weapon.
I don't think it's accurate to say that every +1 on the weapon is the same for a one-handed and two-handed weapon, though. Yes the extra damage is +1 either way but the +5% hit chance equals more average damage for a heavy-hitting weapon than a ligher one (what happens when you DO hit is different, and this changes the likelihood that happens.) But I do agree with you that people are too focused on pure damage-per-round and ignore all other factors. Shields are really nice and that is meant to be what you are giving up to use a bigger weapon.
Here's the thing about Poisoner that you weren't thinking on. Because it's a bonus action to apply, and only applies to the first hit after applying it, it is effectively capped at once around. So you don't need enough for every hit. Just enough for once a round. Pretty paltry addition to damage though, being once a round, especially because they also need to fail a con save or it's just wasted.
Quick points to help feed The Algorithm. Poison also can be done with plants so you can make a case for herbalism and using it can be a Poisoner Kit use. That means you can off load that onto a background as standard. (DM agreement as always). Kensai do use a sword as an option even if they are a monk and getting dueling is painful outside of a dip but a 2 level dip would really need to be done. (Mention that for completeness not optimization because I have a feeling it is not going to be great). Lastly and slightly off topic (but there is a point at the end), you could go two weapon long swords. Admittedly this requires a feat (Dual Wielder) and a fighting style to have any chance of being nearly effective and for it to be survivable you may need second defensive feat. But for completeness I have to mention it because the Drizzt in everyone’s head is saying what about just using two. And that is why there was no way to really use a long sword in the game as well as you can other weapons (IMHO). They expected this to be the power option for the long sword. I have a lot I want to say about two weapon fighting and dueling combat but I am not a UA-camr and better (and better looking) folk can do that. See you next week and all the people that are traditional Bladesingers and followers of Eilistraee sing for your success to redeem the most iconic weapon in history in D&D.
The best idea I have is an old errata that got undone. Shield Master (Which we sometimes reflavor as just a larger gauntlet on the arm or a dueling cloak.) Using that bonus action to shove (ie knock prone) before the attack action. Used to be you could just take the bonus action before and that get advantage on melee attack rolls, but then it got changed around by an Errata. My table ignores that. You can use the bonus action to shove, but you are locked into the attack action too.
A rogue with the dual wielder feat can attack with a long sword, then sneak attack with a finess weapon in the other hand, (optimally a rapier, but a short sword or knife isn't that much worse). It's an interesting build option, (if not exactly optimal) especially since it means building into strength. I like the idea of pairing it with lizardfolk since, as a race, lizardfolk dont provide all their features to any PC that uses armor and doesn't have both stength *and* dexterity. I mean the only real reason to use a longsword instead of two rapiers is to have access to more magical weapons, but maybe lean into that. Go with thief, get use magic device at 13 so you can ignore class restrictions, steal a paladin's holy avenger, and now you're the holy avenger swordmaster thief who occasionally bites people. Now there's a character concept!
Thanks a bunch for this video. As a huge fan of martial shield using classes I am really saddened that it's damage options are as poor as they are. Really looking forward to the next video and see which combos work and how.
Also worth mentioning for war cleric is getting divine favor. Bonus action cast, don't need to move to new targets after leaving bonus action for those extra bonus attacks
@@virplexer1428 you are then left unarmed for opportunity attacks. Additionally, there’s an issues with reaction spells. With no time to stash an object, even with war caster or a weapon/shield spellcasting focus, you still need a free hand for the somatic components if there’s no material component. So almost any reaction spell (other than silvery barbs) is out.
@@virplexer1428 sadly, doffing a shield takes an action. It's a little sticky to cast spells even with warcaster as you will need to constantly drop your sword for the material component.
I know it's not stellar damage or anything, but a source of poison is the poisonous snake familiar: just a 2d4, CON DC 10 halves, so it can add a d4 to the weapon. Far from being worth a feat, but it's useful on a thief build, as a rogue enjoys a familiar anyway and can use the poisoner's kit as a bonus action without needing the feat
We're kind of missing the forest for the trees. If you are using a long sword it's not because you aren't optimized, it's because you aren't optimized around weapon damage. To me the obvious use case is paladin (especially vengeance): wearing a shield lets you get a very high AC when combined with haste (even better with a hexblade splash for shield spell and cha to damage), you don't get a lot of feats anyway for GWF/PAM (elvin accuracy must be first, with a splash you aren't getting another feat until 9th or 10th, which you probably want to use on CHA), and your weapon damage is secondary to your smite damage. Using a longsword here makes sense.
Hex blade dip and swords bard could be worth a look. Both use charisma and seem to complement each other well and you get a lot of spells to bolster your fighting
I think you missed some major points here: 1- most of the options you are talking about can also apply to greatsword users and polearm masters, so there is no advantage to using a longsword over a greatsword. 2- The longsword allows you to wear a shield that a greatsword won't allows. This is the strenght of the longsword that needs to be exploited. So already here we are building a tankier character than a greatsword wielder Since you are wearing a shield, you could use the feat shield master • If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield. • If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you. • If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect. So bonus action shove the target prone on the ground (nowhere does it says you need to do your attack action before the bonus action shove, it simply says you need to use the attack action during the turn, and we'll use the attack action after the bonus action shove during the same turn. Since the target is prone, and a longsword is a melee weapon, you have the advantage to attack the target. Bonus, all other melee allies will have advantage to attack your target. if you manage to switch your attack stat to Dex, Int, wis or Cha, you can even benefit from elvan accuracy on the prone target The other 2 dots increase your defence furthermore, making you even tankier. So pushing the target prone, you are controlling one target, giving advantage to all your melee friends (including yourself) Of course, it is dependent on you having an initiative order where the target isn't right after you so your ally can benefit from it. It also relies on your allies to have decent melee options, but if you are trying to convince your DM to allow you to share your sprite poison, I think you can try to convince him to allow the good old "delay action" from the previous edition so you can place yourself right after the target. SO yeah if your concept is a strong longsword user, sure take duelling, grab a hexblade level so you can pick up elven accuracy and the hex spell, but all those thing are just mechanical boost that do not really apply to the concept per say. But Shield Master, the ongsword warrior ramming into melee in front of his allies, bashing the target with his shield shoving it to the ground so himself with his allies can gang up on the target and shred it to pieces...
the shield master feat can turn a sword and board warrior into a great tank and team player, allowing you to turn ennemies prone to give advantage to your friends to hit them with your bonus action , take less damage from stuff like traps or dragons breath weapons etc... if you decide to mostly tank and not focus to much on damages, it can be really awesome
as a HEMA nerd there has always been some confusion in dnd as the "longsword" is often more representative of an arming sword. Even the examples you give near the start of this video contain a mix of one and two handed swords.
5e oversimplifies a lot of shit. A longsword is the buzzword for anything that includes a katana, falchion, etc. I’m not a weapon’s expert, but the simplicity of 5e’s weapons drive me crazy. Especially when you consider how older editions had a shit ton of properties on their weapons.
@@Iceblade269 It's not just that. the rules for attacks of opportunity are retarded too. I can walk in a circle around you and that's fine but if I break and run you get a free shot. When I played with my HEMA club we basically re wrote the whole melee combat rules and just brought back power attack as a feat.
Artificer: Armorer Armor Model Beginning at 3rd level, you can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it. Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls.
My personal HB for weapons is as follows Vicious (Battle Axe, Greataxe, Flail, Glaive, Halberd) - - On a critical hit the target becomes frightened until they take an disengage action to steady themselves, or an inspiration, including bardic, can be spent to end this effect. Destructive (Flails, Maces, Hammers) - narrative armour damage, on a critical hit the target becomes stunned until end of their next turn, they may take a level of exhaustion to end this effect. Balanced (Swords, Scimitar) - Once per round you may give Disadvantage to an Opportunity Attack against you, that is within your equipped balanced weapons reach. (Defensive) Unbalanced(Axes, Hammers, Maces) - harder to deflect, gain advantage to Disarming Attack (Manoeuvre) and Disarm Actions (optional DMG rule I allow). Close Quarters (Daggers, Shortsword, Hand Axe, Light Hammer) - Melee Attacks made with these weapons gain advantage against grappled targets and whilst grappled Close Quarter attacks have advantage against the grappler. Lunge (Rapier, Greatsword, Pike, Quarterstaff, Spear) - additional non-consistent reach, you may treat your weapons reach during opportunity attacks as an additional +5 ft. Polearm (Glaive, Halberd, Pike, Quarterstaff, Spear) - better area control, while wielding a Polearm, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon. (If you choose Polearm Mastery you have advantage when you make an attack in this way) Up Front (Shields) - once per round whilst you wield a shield you may negate a single opportunity non-critical weapon attack, delivered by a creature of no more than one size category larger than you; that targets only you; - In addition you may sacrifice your shield to negate the non-damage effects of a weapon attack (natural, equipped, and other). A shield sacrificed in this way is considered damaged and cannot be equipped for the AC bonus, but can be fixed with the mending spell or smithy tool skill check. ... I also have a HB Longsword called the Bastard Sword, when wielded with Two Hands the Bastard Sword has the Finese property.
I honestly feel like a Longsword should be treated as having the Finesse property when it's used with two hands. As someone who practices longsword fighting irl I can say that it's absolutely possible to wield one effectively despite being relatively weak, and that's even with the "real" longswords that are supposed to be two-handed; those in D&D would be even lighter. In fact, it's probably even better suited for weaker individuals than many other dex-based weapons like shortswords, daggers and longbows since the two-handed grip gives you more than enough extra control to overcome the weight difference compared to something like a shortsword, while the relative reach makes it far safer than a dagger. This would also solve the discrepancy pointed out elsewhere in the comments about Rogues and Elves both explicitly gaining longsword profciency, clearly because it's supposed to fit their themes, while neither of them is well-suited to using it. Sadly since Bladesingers can't use a weapon two-handed during bladesong it doesn't solve the issue of many weapons specifically associated with Bladesinger styles in the SCAG being terrible options for them.
I generally go for longsword on support paladin. Damage isn't your main thing so low damage doesn't hurt ~as~ bad, you're feat/asi starved so not having a good weapon feat frees up a slot for other stuff you need anyway (or lets you play a race other than vuman or custom origin), and duelist/divine smite/improved divine smite lets your longsword deal some damage, when you need it to at least. Also dips/multiclasses well with either hexblade for hexblade's curse or sorcerer for quickened booming blade, which can help.
One point. Unless I am mistaken, Feats are an optional rule. I know that almost everyone does use them, but the fact that they are not in the default rule set makes the longsword’s shortcomings less egregious. In fact, I am in a campaign right now with significantly restricted access to feats. They probably included Feats for other weapons because, prior to those, almost everyone would only use longswords, if they could. They just overcorrected.
For me, longsword is nice because of versatile. I like keeping track of components, and it means I can do a two-handed grip on my longsword while still getting access to spells.
Really, I think PAM would still be a really fair Feat choice if you removed the BA attack. Opportunity attacks on an enemy entering your weapon’s range is still a solid boost. You could then make a “Medium Weapon Master” Feat with a BA pommel attack for 1d4 and maybe add in a Parry ability because 1) The Parry feat sucks, I have never seen it used and 2) It only works on Finesse weapons. This expands it to work on Longswords, Battle Axes, and Warhammers to make them work better. It also makes Dueling better since that +2 damage will apply to your BA attack while not removing or negating the power of SS or GWM. PAM takes a hit, but I think it’ll survive as it combos EXTREMELY well with both Sentinel and GWM.
Can you explain why darkness has its own problems? Sure, it might interfere with your party, but there are workarounds for that. You can stow the darkened object in a bowl after your attack. You can make sure your entire party has blind sense or Devil’s Sight. You can only cast Darkness when you’re in an open area and it won’t fall on your teammates’s position. Just like any spell, you need to know the right time and situation to cast it, but when used in the right context, it can shift the balance of a fight.
Going back a couple of decades, when DnD gave us weapon specialization/mastery, fighters were able to do some pretty nice things when attacking with a melee weapon, but that was across the board. When DnD got rid of weapon specialization/mastery rapiers came in to play. Giving players a dex based long bladed option. Personally, I would love it if weapon specialization/mastery was brought back into the game. It would need to be fixed, but the game needs it. At my table fighters of a certain strength or higher can wield heavy weapons with a single hand. Hey, it's a Fantasy Role Playing Game. As long as home rules are applied in a constant manner and maintain game continuity, then go for it.
![[Find the Difference] Puzzle Game - Part 359](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OzIcHarWZ3I/mqdefault.jpg)
I blame GWM, Sharpshooter, CBE and PAM for making people focus too much on which weapon to use instead of just enjoying what they like.
Yes, definitely.
Yeah, but if they all played the same and didn’t have supporting feats, that would be pretty bland.
Need a feat for long sword
@@deschaingames1851 Meh, melee is pretty bland in general. Most of the time you just see people going "I attack twice". Adding "I use GWM to attack twice" doesn't make it less bland, same thing for bonus action attacks. The problem goes deeper than just weapon types.
But at least changing the feats to something more flavourful instead of just power creeping would be a good start.
@@Blueneoh I kinda disagree. Nothing is bland for me when my character charges into melee and just brutalizes my foes.
If only there were a convenient houserule that let us apply the +10/-5 to all attacks made with the attack action... hey wait a second
I prefer +2xProfBonus/-ProfBonus
@@andrewkennedy5946 probably more sensible than the +10/-5 tbh, i've seen people like the Dungeon Coach recommending that variant of the +10/-5 features
I like the idea of that rule, but I think it creates the inverse problem where i don't see any reason to go for a greatsword anymore. Imo, something like +10/-5 for 2h, and +7/-5 for 1h seems reasonable
@@chopcooey This might be getting carried away (which homebrew often does) but you could also use the house rule where you add 1.5x your Strength modifier to heavy weapon damage rolls. That would keep the "big-ass weapon" feel while still allowing the power attack house rule for all weapons, but does give a bit of overall power-creep
@@jthompson7024 1.5x isn't particularly overpowered, while having a good playfeel to it.
That's only +1 or +2 damage in most cases with 5E's limit of 20 in an ability score without special higher level play exception options, and has been in previous generations of officially published rules.
I added a versatile weapon fighting style as an option in my games that when wielding a versatile weapon, gives a +1 to damage, +1 to AC if wielding it with 2 hands, and the ability to grapple or shove as a bonus action if wielding nothing else.
This still leaves it non-optimal for damage as it's about tied with dueling, but gives a flavorful utility option (that shouldn't be broken as it's just a part of the shield master feat) to make using the weapon feel unique rather than just a strange unexciting middle ground
That seems like a bit of an inconsistent power boost compared to other fighting styles, especially gaining a new bonus action option. The most you get is a reaction feature like from Interception/Protection.
I kinda like this, actually! It would fit better in a game where encounters forced you to use the open hand more to climb, hold a portcullis open, pull a rope, and other such activities while fighting.
@@AnaseSkyrider Having a bonus action shove isn't that amazing beyond the earliest levels, though, since it abuts with other bonus actions.
@@AnaseSkyrider I think it's definitely inconsistent in design but not quite in power. It was meant to give a unique experience and allow for characters that don't otherwise utilize their bonus action (which is all but required for a strong character) to do so without it being overly strong.
Also keep in mind grapple and shove only work on creatures one size larger so unless you're a Rune Knight (and only some of the time), large creatures are the biggest this feature affects.
The main goal was filling in a perceived gap and adding style and flavor for a fantasy that is iconic but somehow underutilized. The hero that wields a sword sometimes in two hands, sometimes with a shield, sometimes while holding an enemy back or knocking one down to finish them off or go for a more important target. You know, having a versatile weapon that's... versatile
@@jthompson7024 Perhaps instead of a bonus action, it could benefit grappling in a different way. A bonus to grapple checks, advantage, perhaps a grappling related reaction since reactions exist in Protection/Interception...
Perhaps it could be said to be 'unique' to the longsword because it's a versatile weapon, but I feel like throwing in all these abilities depending on wielding shouldn't be the goal either. While not all that complicated on its own, it steals from a little bit of every fighting style in a way I don't quite like when all the other styles do something simpler but still unique. And ideally, the style should not try to compensate for the lack of supporting feats.
I'd be more okay with bonus action grapples by itself or maybe a defensive reaction that works on yourself instead of others, reducing damage. 1d8+PB damage reduction, or 1d10+PB+STR if wielding with both hands.
The issue with the longsword, that in DND 5e it is a versatile weapon, that is not versatile.
I played other systems, which are a bit more complicated, but put more weight on the properties of different weapons. Melee weapon range (Pike vs Dagger), weight and heaviness (for maneuvers which increase damage or accuracy) etc. had a much bigger impact on specific weapons. In such systems, the longsword is usually the most versatile weapon available, because you can swing it, stab with it, it is not too long but also not too short und you can use it more effectively to defend yourself than many other melee weapons. The result was that it became a generalist weapon. Were range matters, Pikes were good if one was severall feet away from the enemy, but terrible, if the Rogue already snuk up to you with his daggers, which are better in close range. On the other hand, light weapons like rapiers and shortswors are very swift and agile, while greataxes and greatswords are really heavy but therefore hitting harder. In most scenarios longswords were kinda the middleground weapon. There is always a weapon, that is better in certain scenarios, but the longsword just has the least weaknesses in all other scenarios.
Now, I do not want DnDs combat system to become more complicated, because that would just extend lenghty combats even further. But it would be nice if the longsword would gain a property, that would make it truely versatile as a weapon.
Riddle of Steel, Blade of the Iron Throne or something else?
If anyone is looking to add more weapon mechanics to their 5e game, I recommend looking at the Duels module from Five Torches Deep.
Maybe make the longsword the only sword that can do either slashing or piercing as part of it's versatility
I mean in terms of what is preventing longsword in one hand, shield in the other the real culprit is the existance of bonus action attack feats that completely outshine the dps and what that's done to the system
Also i hate how in pf2e, a weapon being able to be used with either two or one hands means that it is worse at both, and same with multiple damage types
@@RobKinneySouthpaw That would barely change anything at all. In 5e slashing, piercing, and bludging are basically the same. The only difference is some obscure monsters that aren't used very often has resistances that matter. However, slashing, piercing, and bludging damage are all just lumped together as non-magical damage.
The sword nerds will tell you that the longsword was a sidearm used as a back up weapon or carried for self defense outside of battle and not a main battlefield weapon. That’s key to why adventurers might choose to use a longsword over other weapons. For the Exploration Pillar, a DM is well within his rights to ask a player to make Athletics checks at Disadvantage when the character is trying to climb, swim, or whatever while carrying a great sword in one hand. It might also affect the Social Pillar. Some cities or locations within cities might outlaw heavy weapons or at the vary least, openly carrying those sorts of weapons could attract unwanted attention.
As a sword nerd, that's exactly why my Paladin has a longsword. When fighting mounted with lance and shield it gives him the option to drop the lance and switch to a sword for closer combat. Fighting dismounted he also has the options of fighting sword and shield, longsword in two hands, or switching to a greatsword.
Depending on the era.* Migration era/viking era the frankish styled long swords were absolutely 1 handed main weapons. However thru were weighted differently(more weight to the end of the blade vs the hilt for later medieval long swords)and often were patern welded.(smarter way to achieve the same effect folder a sword over and over)
@@h347h Those aren't long swords. They are just swords, or "arming swords" if you need to put a name to it. Steel was folded a ridiculous amount of times to make up for it's inferior quality. An attempt to spread out/remove impurities/weak spots. A long sword is only a long sword because it is LONGER than the regular side arm. They came about as a combination of higher quality steel and forges and the improvements in armor so that you no longer NEEDED a shield. A long sword is a two handed weapon ALWAYS. A bastard sword is a "versatile" long sword.
@@h347h you can specify that sword A has a short hilt and cannot be used in both hands, so 1d8 only, and sword B has a long hilt and long crossguard and is difficult to use with a shield, so two hands only and 1d10
Sword nerds would be misinterpreting what “Longsword” means in DND. A DND Longsword is not long. It’s the weapon that was used with the shield for many centuries by many cultures
I am SO glad someone finally said “if you don’t like asking your dm for favours with home brew”! I came from 3.5 where there was a legit option for anything you could imagine and it can feel limiting in 5e sometimes
They removed so many fun options in this edition. Not mad about it just more curious as to why? and why focus on only heavy and ranged weapons of certain categories?
I still play and enjoy myself though.
@@KnicKnac I only use a long sword. It’s the only weapon I use cuz I like shields. Shields are actually why long swords are good but their bonus isn’t to wage or action economy so optimizers over look it.
I still regularly out damage my companions with a long sword. So I don’t actually think it’s as much of a problem as people act like it is
@@conradkorbol I'm more of a bow person, but yeah I enjoy a good one handed weapon and shield. Exception to this rule is my current paladin with a maul because smiting hammer.
@@KnicKnac yeah bows are awesome. I just don’t think optimizing is always optimal. My group doesn’t optimize. I my characters are usually way better than theirs. So I have learned to choose technically worse options.
@@KnicKnac I think that...
1: They removed a lot of options for simplicity's sake. They wanted to simplify the game so they did. (which is why most martial weapons seem nigh identicdal)
2: The focus on ranged and heavy weapons was probably completely accidental. Since Shield Master is supposed to be the PAM / GWM equivalent for sword and board fighters, but it just isn't.
I took a crack at this a while back. Here's my approach: The Board and Sword, or the Shield Master without Shield Master
First, a Nov 17, 2015 Crawford tweet, a PHB Weapons excerpt, and the entry for Two-Weapon Fighting.
Tweet: "An improvised weapon is, indeed, a weapon, but only the moment it's used as such. A chair/shield/etc isn't a weapon otherwise."
PHB under Weapons: "Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance."
Two-Weapon Fighting: "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative."
Custom Lineage 17 STR, 15 CHA, 15 CON, (CON can be 14 if a 10 WIS is desired) Dual Wielder feat for "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light."
Class: Paladin. Level 12 will be our jumping point but 11 and 13 can also work.
First we take the Attack action and make a melee weapon attack using our shield as an improvised weapon. In the moment of our attack, our shield is a melee weapon, satisfying the first condition for Two-Weapon Fighting because Dual Wielder has waived the Light requirement. Our other hand with our longsword is holding a melee weapon and thus can make a bonus action attack. Note that we cannot ever bonus action attack with the shield as it is only a melee weapon in the moment of an attack and not while just holding it.
At level 1 our turn looks like this:
Action: non-proficient Attack with Shield as improvised weapon. +3 to hit (because we still add our +3 Strength modifier) | 1d4+3 damage
Bonus Action: proficient Longsword attack. +5 to hit | 1d8 damage (need the Fighting Style for TWF to add our Strength modifier to damage here, as a Paladin we get it at level 2)
So level 2 we pick up the Two-Weapon Fighting style to make our bonus action attack damage a 1d8+3
At level 4 we pick Tavern Brawler to be proficient with our action attack and it bumps our strength up to 18 which means both our attacks have a +6 to hit and a +4 to damage.
At level 5 we get extra attack. Note that only ONE of our attacks need to be made with the shield, so you can use one attack with the longsword and use the other with the shield to still use the bonus action attack.
At level 8 we improve our strength to 20.
At level 11 we get Improved Divine Smite for a +1d8 radiant damage every time we hit a creature with a melee weapon and we can look at our multiclassing options or we could take another level in Paladin to improve our Charisma score and a Paladin level after that would give us Find Greater Steed at level 13. If we're trying not to go too far below the baseline Treantmonk uses, we need these next 6 levels to put in some work. My choices are either 3 levels in Fighter for Rune Knight or dipping Genie Warlock. By level 17 I'll have both. Let's start with bumping up our Charisma and going Rune Knight for this example.
At level 12 is a half-feat for +1 CHA. Fey-Touched can be picked up here for example which can be very advantageous.
At level 13 1st level Fighter gives an extra fighting style. I would take Blind-Fighting as it can come into play more often at these higher levels. Dueling for the Longsword might work but I opt to bypass that conversation entirely.
Level 14 gets us Action Surge and Level 15 gets us Rune Knight. Note that on rounds we first use our bonus action to activate Giant's Might we can skip using our shield to attack and just attack with our longsword as normal. This along with the extra d6 from Giant's Might if we land an attack helps offset the immediate loss of potential damage from not using our Two-Weapon Fighting bonus action attack and on our turn in the next round we can Two-Weapon Fight as normal while still benefiting from activating Giant's Might in the previous round.
Level 16 1st level Genie Warlock gives us a short rest 1st level spell slot and the Dao's proficiency bonus bludgeoning damage to one of our attacks on our turn. That bonus is a +5 right now and will be a +6 next level.
From here we could get another level of Warlock for invocations like Eldritch mind to protect our concentration which is not the best by any stretch, we could dip sorcerer for more slots.
So the build ends up being roughly Paladin 11(12, or 13)/Rune Knight 3/Genie 1, and you can go up to Paladin 13 if you want your mount before jumping off as well as take more Warlock levels. A 4th Fighter level could give Resilient (Constitution) (good if 15 CON was chosen at char creation) and couple that with Genie 2 Eldritch Mind invocation to rapidly improve concentration albeit at a very late stage in the game.
We attack two to three times a round, Rune Knight and Genie give us very reliable damage as we only need to hit once on our turn to apply affects such as Giant's Might, Fire Rune, and Dao's Genie Wrath and in the occasional case we miss all our attacks in a round, we have Action Surge in our back pocket as an insurance policy to still deliver that damage.
Our smites also play a role in assisting our damage. From levels 2-4, we can save our smites for crits, generally using at least 1 or 2 on an adventuring day. Levels 5-7 we will be smiting a lot or finding ways our spells can be more effective than smites, even consider turning your Channel Divinity into a spell slot. Level 8 onwards about 4 smites with 1st level slots will be needed, maybe an extra one if the enemy succeeds on a save like the Rune Knight's Fire Rune Strength Saving Throw. All this assumes we are not fighting undead or fiends. If we're fighting those, then we're very happy as our smites are doing more, we don't have to use as many for the same amount of damage meaning more slots to use for our other spells.
In summary, the answer to sword and board is Board and Sword.
Just so you know, paladins do not have access to the "Two-Weapon Fighting" fighting style
@@aidenauty9716 Good catch, ah well.
@@Hidole555 I went to make this build straight after reading this as I thought it was super cool, still is awesome I've just got to figure out .y spin on it now
Just swap the paladin & fighter styles, maybe move the first level of fighter earlier in the build if you're really worried about it. Stad mod * hit percentage damage once per round, and even then only when you aren't using your action or bonus action on anything else, isn't that big a deal. Paladins are already arguably the best dual wielders, even without the fighting style (divine smite, improved divine smite, feat/asi starved, etc)
I love the animated intro!
The most baffling design choice in the entire game to me is that Rogues start the game with longsword proficiency
It's historical. Theives being one of the classes able to use magic swords was part of their early identity. 5e was afraid to remove anything 'iconic', so that vestigial proficiency remained.
I think there should be a rouge subclass that gets sneak attacks with any non-heavy weapon they are proficient in, something like a thug archetype. Maybe give them a bonus action frighten ability. If it’s to unbalanced, then any non two handed/heavy melee weapon would work fine.
Don't forget elves!
@@micahiwaasa9304 the one with elves is because it’s a culture thing for the race, it makes a lot more sense then rouges with longswords
It's not baffling that they start with longsword proficiency, it's bafflling that Rogues can't sneak attack with longswords.
Not an optimizer myself as I tend to run more fun thematic builds but I love the channel! Great ideas and insights.
In going through the classes, I feel like you glossed over Battle Smith, Beastmaster, and Drakewarden. All of these give us a Bonus Action attack via their companion. It's not the best damage in the world, but it puts those classes on the same level as a standard Polearm Master and you don't have to make extra investments. They don't work great for multiclass dips, but they're just fine for the primary class.
Clerics can also do something similar with spiritual weapon. And since the spiritual weapon can also be any form of the casters choosing, it can also be a longsword.
Well not quite. You can't apply GWM to companion attacks.or basically any other damage bonus.
Something else worth mentioning that I left out of my original reply. Since there's no real drawback to using a small race with a longsword, you can also mount any of the companions the moment you get them(except the drake, which you can mount later on)
@@dragonboyjgh however, beast master companion gets extra attack at level 11, which is a decent damage upgrade.
@@PedroHISilva Problem is; This is a level 11 feature. Basically every class gets something huge at level 11
If not access to 6th level spells; Its 33-50% increase in damage from a third attack (Fighter), +1d8 Damage to all attacks (Paladin), never rolling below 10 on skills (Rogue)
Since your wolfs regular attack doesn't compete with an actual characters attack; Your Wolf getting a second attack is not very competitive
Its attack does like, 10 Damage at this point - and isn't very accurate since you're either using classic Beast Master animal stats or relying on your spell attack modifier with the Primal Companion (Tashas)
In my opinion, the weapon and armor options in 5e are oversimplified. There is simply not enough complexity to justify the variety. And feats exacerbate the problem by making some weapons dramatically better than others.
When I read the design, it seems to me that the original intent was to make one-handed melee weapons pair with a shield. In other words, give up some offense for extra defense. The shield master feat seems to support this concept. But in practice, this means that all one-handed melee weapons get the haft (pun intended).
I think Baldur's Gate 3 shows something that D&D 5 could adopt: each weapon type comes with abilities (like spells) that you can do with it, such as "pommel bash".
I really like the problem-solving/concept videos that preview your next build video. It’s an interesting format
To me the appeal of the longsword isn't the damage it deals but the defence I get by taking a sword and shield. Sure I could take a spear and go polearm master, but if I'm already focusing on defence I might not want to devote a whole feat to increasing my damage when I could have taken something with other uses. Slasher might not deal damage but it does control the enemy to a degree. Healer, ritual caster, and the the various defensive fighting styles gives even more utility. All this while still doing better damage than a monk or a cantrip user, and with a higher AC and probably better hitpoints.
I agree with all of this except better damage than a wizard. Strictly single target damage a fighter might pull ahead, but especially at level 5 and up the wizard has options that can decimate entire encounters
@@jthompson7024 True a wizard built for damage does do more damage than a longsword. I was really only comparing it cantrip damage and assuming the wizard would use their spell slots for control spells. However that was a dumb assumption of me because a wizard could be using a spell like animate objects or dance macabre that deals significant single target damage.
Longsword shield isn't a damage build like an evocation wizard. Its more for people who want to optimize damage with a one handed weapon while still taking tanking feats like tough and sentinel.
I agree, plus the cost of opportunity of getting a feat like PAM (to get a bonus 1d4+STR) is getting another feat (with defensive ability or other perks) or STR+2, which +5% to HIT and +1 to all attacks. So a Fighter with PAM at 5th level using a spear/quarterstaff with a STR=16, deals an extra 5.5 damage with the bonus action but uses a 1d6 for the 2 main attacks...If instead the fighter increase their STR by 2 (and use a sword), it increases their damage by 1 for the 2 attacks (hence +2), it already deals an extra 1 dmg per attack due to using 1d8 instead of 1d6 (for a total of +4) but it also increase both attacks chances to hit by 5%. So basically, by using a sword you're basically trading 1.5 damage per round for an extra 5% to hit...on top of that, if you use your 1st bonus action to cast Hunters' Mark, you'll deal an additional 2 damage on the 1st round using a sword, so it really takes more than 2 rounds to get even with a spear/quarterstaff with shield. Finally, good luck finding magical spears/quarterstaffs vs longswords...
Also Polearm master doesn't help at all if you already have a better use of your bonus action. Many Rangers (other than gloomstalker) utilize their bonus actions for spells, and subclass features. So Polearm master's Bonus action attack isn't great. Unfortunately they still fall off hard after level 10 because, like the monk, they only get their subclass features at level 11 while other classes are usually getting some sort of big boost (Barbarians are in this sad boy list as getting crap at that next tier of play).
@@Herbalizer28 Almost. Polarm master with the dueling fighting style is actually 7.5 damage with bonus action (they are still utilizing the weapon in 1 hand so they still get the +2 damage from dueling, this is the real issue and trick, damage add ons.)
Our table just lets PAM work with Sword and Board too, with the Bonus Action attack being flavored as a shield slam.
Its still not optimal, but it does make it a lot more viable and fun.
Really, Shield Master should've already done this, and I blame that for being part of the issue.
You could also look at the Shield Master feat. It works with longsword really well, and I think @Treantmonk's Temple missed that in his Feat reviews here.
@@NeilBeforeZod Had mentioned shield master and I've heard so many mixed reviews of the ability that I just quietly assume it's bad.
@@aquamarinerose5405 Its...
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you using your shield.
• If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity save made against a spell or other effect that affects only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect which allows you to make a Dexterity save for half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage, interposing you shield between you and the effect.
.
The issue is when the Bonus Action shove happens. It's been Sage Advice'd to happen AFTER the Attack, but it's a bit mixed on of this can happen between multiple Attacks.
It's not bad, as Shove can make the target Prone. It can be good for shield and sword builds.
I like that very much
I absolutely loved this video! Hearing a discussion of all the options, whether they’re good or bad, is just great!
Would've liked some more discussion on the smite spells that can be cast as a bonus action, but this was a great video for outlining the general options a longsword user has.
I love that you included a picture of the ulfberht!!!!! The lightsaber of long swords! A true +3 magical sword of ancient times!
This video is just a really nice video for how to do something other than polearm master + GWM with a melee character. Very useful.
I think I would focus on the Shield Master feat if I was trying to make the Longsword work, and that requires finding a way to make the Prone condition stick. Maybe a Net to get restrained, then draw and hit with a Longsword? Hex could be used to give disadvantage on Strength rolls both to resist the shove and the Net. This requires more thought.
Edit: I'm an idiot. Prone would be wholly redundant with Restrained. Also, Prone movement cost doesn't seem to work the way I thought it did.
I am surprised Shield Master never came up since Sword and Board is the iconic duo.
Shove on BA means potentially free advantage attempt (maybe, see a certain sage advice) but at least if we've got another melee friend they can potentially get that advantage even if we don't.
A 2-5 boost to all dex saves which is nice on it's own, coupled with the weaker evasion means we can be a fair bit tankier than most other melee builds.
I definitely agree that this video didn't really go over the benefit of having that extra 2 ac from the shield and the uses of the shield master. if I need to be the front line for my party, I probably don't want to take a polearm (except spear, but that is stupid and I cannot be fought on this) or gwm, because I want that extra ac.
Certainly is also very useful in a game where feats are not allowed, and while our assumption is that feats are allowed, that is not every table.
I'd honestly go with shield master being focused on party tanking over the whole shove prone thing. 5e sorely lacks effective ability to actually use your defense to benefit your allies. Something like a taunt or a reliable attack interception is really what it needs over better personal defense and a so-so shield bash.
Also I think they could expand on just one handed with an empty hand. A feat supporting it could give like thief fast hands, letting the empty hand do utility things with your bonus action to up your utility in combat.
In this way sword and board and one handed solo fighting both have unique niches that don't just compete with heavy weapons for dps.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa One benefit of sword-and-empty-hand is that you can pretty easily try to grapple, without needing to stow a shield or sheathe a weapon or anything.
@@Hitlinemoss Sure, though I think you can do the same with most two handed weapons, as you can take one hand off like a polearm to grapple with and not have to also be stuck with just a long sword when not grappling.
I get that you start with "I want my character to use a longsword. How can I boost my damage?"
But I would much rather look at character concepts that ask "what is the best weapon for this character concept?" And arrive at the longsword.
Grapple based barbarian is a classic one. Attacking with a d10 while not grappling and a d8 when you are grappling is something only the longsword can do. If you go for a heavy weapon you would only be able to use it as an improvised weapon if you are grappling.
The longsword is also the two handed weapon of choice for small races.
Attacking with a d10 while not grappling and a d8 when you are grappling is something only the longsword can do
Warhammer and battleaxe would like a word
@@goonuniversal981 and TreantMonk's tips in the video would also fit those weapons too.
But a spear or quarterstaff gives up only one damage on this concept, which they will more than make up for with polearm master. You're still picking longsword for aesthetics & trying to make the most of it.
@@Malisteen you only get 1d4 once per turn; for 2 attacks per turn, 2d8 averages at 9 whereas 2d6 + 1d4 averages at 9.5; they're pretty similar at level 5 and longsword gets better at higher levels
@@vlungu You're leaving out the opportunity attack part of PAM, which will typically add a couple attacks per combat. Also, how does longsword get better at higher levels on a barbarian? If anything, spear/quarterstaff gets better at higher levels because you'll probably eventually have access to a magic weapon and PAM will multiply its effect - though admittedly if the DM rolls treasure at random you're more likely to bump into magic longswords than spears, so there is that.
I love when you make videos that are about how to make things like spells and weapons work best. There are a million channels reviewing latest books and ranking subclasses. Very few channels put together these kinds of videos that are actually useful as a player.
I like the magic item point, I think it's also good to know that your DM can sometimes offer magic items that aren't just straight upgrades or require a choice, like giving someone a worse type of armor but +2 or something can be kind of interesting.
But on longswords I guess it makes even more sense if you are playing a module, because that way you aren't likely to change a characters sword that it wields into a cross bow or quarter staff (which tbh I wouldn't typically anyway, it feels weird for a weapon that in canon is a bit niche to be magical over the common and trusty sword).
I get what you mean, but this armour example won't work, since in the end you compare ac, not just armour types most of the time (so just slapping a +2 on armour will literally be either an upgrade, equal, or a downgrade, not a sidegrade) xd
@@АлександрСудаков-с2и yeah tbh not my best was somewhat off the top of my head, I just think the way to encourage build diversity is to offer benefits for taking alternative routes from the typical, meaning those changing stuff feel good, but those building traditional still get the options.
Idk but I prefer working to optimise characters (if I can obviously, I'm not the best) on the fly following benefits and options for the moment rather than always building to a specific goal and ignoring interesting opportunities for challenge in build making
@@mochristie5419 ye, I get what you mean, just thought it was funny
This is coming from someone who played a paladin up to level 20 who focus on sword and shield. I don’t think focusing on damage is the best way to optimized characters. I think focusing on team work is a much more fun and interesting way to optimized.While my paladin didn’t have gwm like that fighter he did have something’s the fighter didn’t like the shield master feat. We had a lot of fun seeing the champion fighter used every thing he had on a prone boss. Crits on 19s even on 18s at higher levels,action surge, and gmw really melted bosses. Even our warlock joined in by casting hex giving them disadvantage to not be knocked prone. Dnd is a team game
I agree D&D is a team storytelling game. I usually make characters that focus on team based efforts. That is how I optimize.
You're correct, the best optimization is optimizing as a party rather than as individual damage output.
Treating 5e as a combat mini game is a mistake.
Absolutely
This runs into another structural problem with the dedicated martial classes (fighters and barbarians, rangers to some extent).....they have diddly squat other than combat. They have no subclasses that make use of Charisma God Stat, or even Wisdom, just some shades on Intelligence, and no magic, so they universally suck compared to practically everyone else if you want to do something absolutely crazy and unreasonable like....open your mouth.
So because the martial classes don't give you any way to more meaningfully engage with RP, you pretty much get railroaded into building on top of what you do get, which is combat. The whole game becomes a combat minigame because the megabrains at WotC loaded damn near everything into charisma, and gave you absolutely nothing to work with in your class features and other stats (because as we all know, Matthew Mercer with his huge charisma stat is definitely effortlessly more intimidating than *Mike Tyson* is). I can only do combat. Therefore, I should be the most combatty combat combatter who ever combatted.
The way 5e is built to give the martial classes absolutely nothing to work with in terms of the RP aspects of the game creates a psychological hole for people to fall into, where they build on what they have instead of spending perks mashing social features into a character who will be frustratingly worse at it regardless.
And so....the focus on doing as much damage as superhumanly possible.
@@SaintDaisley hot take: your character stats don't define your RP options.
Something I realized watching this video. Not relevant to most tables, but the longsword becomes much better if you're playing at a table that doesn't use the Feats rules, which are TECHNICALLY optional.
So I guess if your table ever decides to try a no feats game, longsword becomes much more viable.
They are technically optional, but playing a martial character without any feats is incredibly boring. Feats are (almost) what balances martial and casters, it’s why fighters get so many. Personally I can’t imagine playing 5e without any feats, they are a big part of the game even if they are *technically* optional
@@thecharmer5981 same tables do do it, Dungeon craft doesn't, but he uses loads of weird house rules
@@bleddynwolf8463 well you know what they say, what ever makes the game more fun for their table
@@thecharmer5981 thats actually a thing that shows up in dungeons crafts comments loads, cuz some of his house rules are ODD
@@bleddynwolf8463 there are also ways to get dex to damage in pathfinder 1e, either feats or being an unchained rouge. Although rouges can also sneak attack with any weapon in pathfinder, which made my barbarian rouge with a Lucerne hammer (basically a bludgeoning/piercing glaive mechanically) an absolutely machine in a fight. I made zombies explode
ב"ה
With cleric domains you also have the death domain with the channel divinity that increase melee damage.
Actually, I've seen a pretty powerfull Eldritch Knight 6/Death domain Cleric that did pretty well with a longsword (eldrtitch knight was for the shield spell and higher spell slots). At level 11 he got spirit shroud, at level 12 he got a second channel divinity, at level 13 he could upcast spirit shroud, at level 14 he got divine strike and at level 15 he got holy sword, so these were levels he got some decent things (though when facing multiple opponent he still used spirit guardians for his concentration, and the spiritual weapon did contribute to his damage too).
Tough at our table, when we have 7-8 encounters in a day there are at least 3 options for a short rest (sometimes even more), so the channel divinity was probably more effective than it could have at your table where you run only 1 short rest in a day of 8 encounters (or at least how you calculate damage if you don't actually play this way).
I fully believe the math you ran on it, but as a player I'll never take GWM over sword and board. -2 AC from no shield? -5 to hit to gain the main benefit of the feat? Giving up an ASI for a feature that only effects your attacks?
That said, everyone I play with has preferred a much more RP-heavy game and we rarely have more than one combat per session (in fact we've gone multiple sessions with no combat at all). It's always interesting to me how many different perspectives there can be on d&d and that all of them are valid.
I don't think I heard it in the video, but an upside of versatile weapons is that they can be used with grapplers. Two hand attack for more damage, then switch to one hand when grappling someone. Not sure if that helps though
But so can a spear or a quarterstaff, and they benefit from Polearm Master
@@nessesaryschoolthing sure, but for lower damage dice each
Just realized that Poisoner could synergize really well with Grasping Arrow from Arcane Archers! Thx for that
If that longsword was a holy avenger then I might be tempted. Even then I'd ask myself if I couldn't trade it in for a holy avenger greatsword instead...
Great timing - I was just thinking about how to make a decent longsword build for a set of characters I'm writing up that are a group of adolescent monstrous kung-fu tortles. Looking forward to watching this after work
I like the reskin idea. In a recent one-shot, I played a fighter with a really long katana a la Sephiroth, but it was functionally a halberd.
Wow, I am playing my second session as a Shadar Kai Padlock on Monday and am really looking forward to your next video.
Baldur's Gate 3 went with the homebrew route. Different weapons have different extra abilities you can utilize with them and the longsword absolutely has a pommel strike option. I agree that reskinning is just... it just doesn't feel right.
Great solutions offered here overall though
I did a longsword Bladesinger so I was happy to see this included. Got around the strength issue by using a belt of hill giant strength.
Thank you so much for delving into this!
For the last week I’ve been wondering how to make a sword and shield type character in an effective manner, maybe doing something else, like tanking, enemy movement etc. while still doing at least a decent amount of damage.
I’ve been very vocal about the Trident in the past. It’s a damn shame it was left out of the Polearm Master feat. It doesn’t have anything unique to it whatsoever. I figured the Triton race would’ve been proficient with it and maybe even increased the damage die? Nope! Lol. You can throw it and pair it with the Artificer Infusion, the Eldritch Knight BA ability, or even the BattleMaster Quick Toss maneuver, but still very lackluster all together. I just wish there was a dedicated Retiarius subclass - the classic trident and net gladiator. So, please Chris would you mind dedicating a video to our boy the 🔱?
The trident is literally a step down from the spear, same damage, same range, same properties, but you need martial weapon proficiency and it weighs more if your DM is taking encumbrance seriously.
@@phelps6205
And no polearm master.
The trident was never an effective weapon. That's why it was used in sports entertainment- it looks cool, but it's not actually as deadly as a real spear.
@@aetherkid If you look at the way it was used in East Asia, like Korea, China etc they used it to hunt tigers. It's an area denial weapon and meant to make it harder to close the distance. It's also used in the Mandarin duck formation, try looking up the Muyedobotongji (historical Korean weapon martial arts manuscript).
@@aetherkid technically its three times as deadly ;)
On the point of magic swords tending to be longswords, I found it surprising as a player how many magic swords in 5e are greatswords, including some that historically are longswords.
considering greatswords in 5e don't have reach (they tended to be about the same height as their WIELDER), i'm about 90% sure wizards thinks greatswords are longswords
Optimization is not only all about damage and doing the most optimal damage. The longsword is just as viable a pretty much any other d8 weapon for characters that cannot or do not want to use 2 handed weapons. GWM is not an option for small races, as they cannot wield heavy weapons without disadvantage. So 1h Versatile weapons are great choices for them. Choosing a d8 weapon in order to gain the advantage of +2 or more armor class if your role is to draw attacks away from your allies, choosing a longsword is pretty optimal.
Spear or Quarterstaff are valid options for sword/board characters and do allow you to take PAM for the bonus action attack; but attacking with your bonus action is not universally the optimal choice. It you are optimizing for damage it may be, but as I said, optimization doesn't always mean maximum damage. I don't think you make it clear enough that you are only referring to the longsword only being a problem when talking about its damage capabilities vs other options. Longsword + ShieldMaster can be very effective and potentially a more optimal choice, as it gives that ability to get the bigger damage die if you want/need to (assuming you don't have Dueling fighting style). Even with dueling fighting style, on a critical hit versatile > dueling.
You can also do a Shadowblade Bladesinger or Warlock. Flavoring Shadowblade as a Longsword is less of a stretch than reflavoring a Spear as a Longsword, for example.
I think the way to go is a custom lineage battle master with the slasher feat, 18 Strength, 13 Constitution, and 13 Dexterity at level 1 and the shield master feat at level 4. You could use a combination of trip attack followed by a shove to move them back 5ft. and run back out of range of their reduced movement or attack normally, use the bonus action to shove prone, then action surge to use pushing attack to knock them back 15ft. Get 20 Strength at level 6 to make sure you're hitting often and pick up Skill Expert at level 8 to get +11 on the Athletics checks (+13 starting at level 9) and round out the Constitution score. At level 12, pick up Resilient Dexterity to round out the Dexterity score and pair with the 0 damage on a Dex save feature of shield master. From there, you've got 3 more feats to choose from (maybe Lucky, Tough, and Alert, but there are a bunch of other good options) and other than that it's just more attacks and better bonuses on everything. You're not going to outdamage other fighters, but you're not going to get hit as much and you can keep enemies away from the rest of your party pretty well.
One feat I feel you missed was Dual Wielder. It gives you a reliable bonus action attack with a longsword.
I definitely made a house rule for the Dual Wielder feat, so that it was playable, and people could wield longswords. It still falls behind GWM and PAM as far as damage. But I modified it so Dual Wielding doesn't take the bonus action anymore, and that allowed more flexibility for their builds, so what they lack in damage, they make up in versatility. It also allowed them to attune to 2 weapons as though they were only attuned to one, so they wouldn't fall behind on an attunement slot just because they dual wielded.
I think you missed three key advantages to Longsword that likely won't make their use top-tier, but they will do contribute to making a much better PC than you portray.
1) Using a shield - a shield is +2 to AC. This is basically "give your opponents a -10% chance to hit debuff". It's always on, and it uses no additional resources. This should get some recognition, because as you have said in the past, a dead PC does 0 DPR.
2) Shield Master Feat - in addition to bonus to Dex saves (+2 typically ... and you usually say that you like to make your saving throws, and Dex is a very common saving throw to have to make) and the ability to use your reaction to take half damage on a failed Dex save (no limitation on number of times you can use, beyond having or not having a reaction to use), the feat allows you to make the shove action as a bonus action. On a successful check, you basically can knock your opponent prone and gain advantage on your attacks. You touted the Archery fighting style over Dueling as +2 to hit is better than +2 to damage, and I agree. Advantage, simplistically, is +5 to hit. Yes, you do have to win an ability check, but you're a strength-focused character. You will be winning this check with the same consistency as spell casters using a spell vs any other DC check.
3) No dependency on Short/Long Rest features - The benefit of this is going to be campaign/DM dependent. I'm use to playing in situations in which you generally get 1 long rest per day, and 1-2 short rests per day ... and occasionally you come across scenarios where you go for a long time without resting, or you get the "you can rest here, but it's not really all that safe" from the DM resulting in the possibility of the rest being interrupted with a combat. At high levels, this usually isn't much of a problem for many rest-dependent classes (as you typically have enough resources to budget them out for most combats). But, at low or the bottom half of mid-level characters (which, as you often say, is where most people play their games), this can (often? depending on your DM) come into play. Yes, a Shield spell give you +5 to AC compared to a +2 AC with the shield, but you're burning a spell slot for that. It's not uncommon to see spell casters whittle their slots on defensive actions, only to be turned into a cantrip caster for the rest of the combat. Then after combat, their asking to take a rest, while your warrior roles his eyes and wonders why ... we just rested two combats ago.
I know you often have the conversation between optimization and role play or fun ... but, I think sometimes you down-play survive-ability. Not always. You definitely have made some survive-ability builds, some which outshine the out-of-the-box fighter. But, if you're going sword-and-board, your top focus isn't on DPR; it's on survive-ability. I'm sure we've all seen a player at our table, whose character just died, and they're like F*** it, I'm getting plate and a shield on my next PC.
Another great feat to consider for the longsword + shield user is Healer ... that way they can stabilize and wake up the rest of the party after the fight is over.
At the end of the day, if spell casters aren't being force to expend spell slots on defensive mechanics, and the party can just rest whenever and where ever they want, then the DM isn't really doing their job (they're not making any challenges), and the types of benefits that come with a sword-and-board character become basically pointless.
1)Actually he talked about the shield... and as he said you could use a shield and a spear for example.
2) this is not a point for the long sword, its for the shield, like a shield and an axe (used by the "Vikings") shield and spear (Greeks and Roman armies used this all the time) or shield and mace (used in medieval times by priests and poor fighters when plate armor started getting more popular and cheap) or any 1 handed weapon + shield
3) again a shield argument, you haven't talked about the sword at all, just the shield that just to reinforce the point CAN BE USED WITH OTHER WEAPON THAT CAN BE USED WITH ONE HAND
enjoyable breakdown, thanks!
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I would say the problem is that he's using a shield and spear in the same hand. Either he forgot it when he calculated his AC or he's trying to slip something past his DM.
I’m currently trying to optimize the first D&D character I made about three and a half years ago. The game is a real slow burn, we’re level 4. I recently found out the magic Longsword my DM gave me at chargen is a Moonblade and I’ve just unlocked one of its four or five abilities. I’m a half-elf Hexblade. I’m thinking of making it my hex weapon, keeping my pact weapon (as a Longsword as well). I already have the dual Wielder feat (which I know is not as great as having a great weapon, but here we are). Next level I get Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite, then I’m gonna jump over to Fighter and pick up Two Weapon Fighting, Action Surge, (maybe) Battle Master with trip attack and then get Elven Accuracy. No one else in the group is very optimized, either and I think this will eventually make me an all right crit fisher, allowing me to do some burst damage with my smite. Can’t really think of a better use for my longswords, at least until I know what else my moonblade can do.
Can we get a follow-up to this on the Whip? I keep watching Castlevania and it REALLLYYYYY makes me want to use a good whip build
If you don't mind removing the word good, technically a monk can make a whip a d10.
The Dungeon Dudes touched on this in one of their streams. Short answer? Rogues and Monks (specifically Kensai) are your best bet.
You could maybe do some Dedicated Weapon/Kensei Hijinks with it to, the solutions here work with the whip
A character wielding a whip has 2 ranges for provoking opportunity attacks [both 10’ from the whip and 5’ for an unarmed strike or a non-reach weapon] -which could be put to good use on a rogue, paladin, war caster or sentinel build.
Wow, they need to put out longsword content and I did not even realize.
Great vid and lots of good ideas.
You missed battle rager for barbarian sunclasses. Bonus action attack that can be made while sword and boarding.
It's not a great subclass but it does synergise with sword and board, and does increase DPR.
Shield master gives you a bonus action control option, and potentially increased damage to target if you or the party can take advantage of prone. Not optimal but it is control you can use every turn that isn't available with great weapons.
As you've stated before, DPR is a blunt tool and misses a lot of the actual ebb and flow of combat. The minimum +2AC from shields increases time to die in many combats. In some situations one can do lower DPR but more damage per combat by staying on your feet another round or two of a 4 round combat.
You channel character and background just make me think of Elden Ring now.
The vid seems to define optimization as the ability to do damage but you can optimize in many different ways. You can optimize for social encounters, for exploration, and for Defense rather than offense. The longsword user is normally going for Tank options/defense with the shield. So the optimization should not be focused on how to improve their damage but on how to improve their defense and other tank related options: Sentinel, Slasher, Shield Master, and appropriate subclasses, etc.
Tanking in the traditional way we think of the term from video games is simply not a thing in D&D. There are various reasons for this:
1. Sentinel is bad because it only effects one creature. Holding down a single creature does not a tank make. If 1 creature is somehow strong enough to challenge an entire party, then the "tank" will not last long in melee with it.
2. Shield master is simply a poor feat. Shoving creatures prone as a bonus actions means your damage dealers with SS now have disadvantage. Simply halving a creatures speed isn't enough to stop it from getting up and continuing targeting party members that pose a threat. Which certainly excludes this "tank" as they do not deal an intimidating amount of damage via opportunity attack. If the attack does it, then the feat is still useless as it is redundant with sentinel.
3. The party members in the backline tend to have better defenses than the "tank", as shields, medium armor, the shield spell, absorb Elements, and the dodge action all easily out weight the benefits of a few more hit points a level.
@@Saikool64 your second point assumes the ranged allies have 0 other targets to hit like lol. also plate armor and a shield is 20ac far more then mage armor or medium armor will get you and absorb elements etc. require spell slots a resource which the shield item doesn't require. not to mention shieldmaster makes you amazing at dex saves one of the most common saves in the game. also high ac is the best way to face high dmg single enemies so your first point is weird. the dodge action being better then a shield is funny what a joke of a comment you lack a fundamental understanding of combat. another thing people dont realize is the dex addition from shieldmaster scales with +'s on your shield so a +2 shield gives +4 to dex saves its a super good feat.
If you want to be a defensive weapon user build, you could just use a one-handed polearm (quarterstaff or spear) with a shield and still take polearm master for the bonus action attack and occasional reaction attack while still getting the benefits of dueling if you didn't take defense. The longsword still wouldn't be close to the best choices for a build using a shield since it only does 1 more average damage on a hit (so it's 0.65 extra damage with a 65% chance to hit) and comes with neither of the two possible attacks that can allow you to kill the enemy much faster.
Treantmonk actually did a spear paladin build one time: it's a pretty cool video outlining how polearm master and dueling and improved divine smite can combine pretty well to do great damage. ua-cam.com/video/nC3A76XahTo/v-deo.html
Polearm Master with a Spear or Quarterstaff is probably the best defensive option. PaM, Sentinel, and Crusher for use with the bonus attack are pretty obnoxious for overall defensive presence.
The problem with most Strength 1h options is that Polearm Master works with Spears.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 and @Elizabeth Violet These are excellent suggestions but I limited my comments to the longsword cause that's what the video was about. Tho I would say that polearm master is better for the Sentinel/Reach attack combo than for the bonus action attack. That bonus action attack conflicts with the Shield Master bonus action shove, which can potentially be better for battlefield control for your tank. But it is nice to have the option for an attack if a shove isn't going to be useful.
An elegant solution for longsword is to take one of the "pet" classes. The BA attack by the pet, which generally scales well, solves much of the damage gap, and then together with the base classes (ranger and arti) give us a lot of little damage boosts and powerful utility that aid us contribute much more that just damage
I had to homebrew GWM for longswords. Makes it better for me. Excited to hear your ideas.
IRL combat optimizers: HALBERD!
This series has my full support
I would have loved to see proper support for versatile weapons including the longsword, in both feats and combat styles. Oh, well. Maybe we'll see something in 5.5.
I think they should have there own feat or fighting style
@@andromedastormcrow3288 you have duel style
What game really needs is a sword master feat, bonus action attack with a pommel and extra damage once per round would go a long way to my mind.
Ok, I thought about it a bit more, and here is my version of a Sword Master feat:
When using a sword type (short sword, long sword, rapier, scimitar) weapon in making an Attack Action, you can make a pommel strike as a bonus action for 1d4 damage.
Longswords are considered a finesse weapon for you.
Once per round you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the damage of a sword type weapon. This bonus damage is doubled if using a longsword with both hands.
I don't think that breaks anything, but would allow sword weilders to feel some love.
I think you might have overlooked one Feat/Fighting Style. Duel Wielding. The feat remove the restriction of only light weapons, so you can then duel wield Long Swords, and the Two Weapon Fighting style adds ability mod to Bonus Off-hand Attack. So, there you are, a Fighter in Full plate, with two long swords, possibly magical at that (Paladin can wield a Holy Avenger with a second magic long sword, or two holy avengers if DM feeling overly/insanely generous) with one or both possibly coated in poison.
Great information, I look forward to the followup.
I optimize, my party not as much. For balance, I gave my tank a sword and shield to mitigate his damage until other characters catch up. I'm sure he'll end up with a glaive or some two handed weapon eventually.
Chris, while watching this video i dont believe youve said the words, "there's an obvious trade off here..."
Dgmw Chris. I think what you do is highly admirable, I do! What i find over & over in your videos tho is the lack of reasons given why there's trade-offs in these rules. That said, i still enjoy & appreciate your efforts to find reason in a very vague ruleset.
Love the video as always! Interested to see how you end up making this work in the next video
Bring back an old favorite, Cleave, "On a successful attack you may use your bonus action to attack another opponent within 5 feet", or since people are using a Longsword to use a shield (usually), have a house rule that you can use your shield to make an off hand attack using your bonus action, without losing the AC bonus, so something like "You may use your STR or DEX to make an of hand attack with your shield, this inflicts 1D4 bludgeoning damage unless the shield is modified to do other forms of damage, shield bonuses apply to the attack and damage but you do not gain the stat bonus to damage without the 2 weapon fighting style, if you have the Shield Mastery feat you may attempt the push as part of this attack".
The problem with that is that lots of classes, subclasses, and feats give you access to bonus action features. Hell, even TWF would be identical. Cleaves really need to be free EXTRA, but lower, damage that is only applicable in AoE to give it actual power. I've been working on a homebrew for all the PHB weapons, and I gave this to a bunch of slashing weapons:
Sweep: When making a melee attack with a weapon that has this property, choose another creature within 5 feet of the initial target that is also within your reach. You deal damage to that creature if the attack also would hit it. The damage value in parentheses appears with the property. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage, unless that modifier is negative.
The values I gave were 1d4s and 1d6s. No ability damage, no bonus action, it's not another attack, just some extra die damage to another adjacent creature.
@@AnaseSkyrider I was basing it off polearm master and crossbow expert, both of which use the bonus action.
Thank you for talking about poison. Even if I think there were details missed or you downplayed certain parts. At least it was more than most youtubers would do.
I would like to make a small correction--yes, archery is the best fighting style, but ONLY if you have something like Sharpshooter to take -5 to hit and +10 to damage.
If you aren't using sharpshooter or GWM, dueling is arguably better than archery. Here's some numbers:
5 str + d8 with 70% accuracy: 6.65 damage
5 str + d8 + 2 dueling with 60% accuracy: 6.9 damage
If you get advantage, obviously it tips more towards the +2 to damage (8.65 damage for +2 to hit, and 9.66 for +2 to damage).
When I looked at making a longsword character, I did put together a 1 fighter/X undead warlock that, using grave touched and spells like spirit shroud, was mathematically able to consistently perform at that 50%+ above "baseline" damage benchmark with a longsword while still having the complement of warlock spells and invocations for fun party tricks in and out of combat, though the stat split undeniably complicated matters. Top damage, no, but a perfectly worthwhile and reliable combatant.
Looking forward to the follow up. I'd suggest making the comparisons to optimised options clear to set up a potential discussion about why longswords and by proxy other unoptimised choices are bad and what would need to happen to bring them more in line, especially while keeping the flavour of the weapons. I understand that most of the issue with other options is the lack of +10 damage feats and bonus action attacks, but other homebrew feat options for a different feel could also be interesting. Maybe an opposite, -5 damage +10 to hit, or things like doubling strength modifier or applying a debuff or extra damage, perhaps with certain conditions. I think that would make an interesting topic as part of this.
I really like the idea of optimizing suboptimal builds. Longswords and melee Halflings are two of my favorites.
One of the most important parts of optimization, IMO, is to talk to your DM about how they're going to handle magic items and weapons. Please don't try to make them do it your way if they don't feel like it, but *do* pay attention and make your plans accordingly. I would argue that Polearm Master + GWM, for instance, is rarely the most optimal choice, because it is based on assumptions on what you're going to get. I'd roughly categorize the possibilities as:
A) If they roll for magic items, or they just give out whatever is in the module they're running: go for whatever options are the most versatile. Chances are slim that the best weapon you're going to have is a hand crossbow or a glaive. And magic weapons are very, very powerful. A +2 longsword is going to give your optimized polearm master build a run for its money, even on a less optimized character.
B) If they prefer to give out magic items that work with the choices you've made, but still like to vary it up, consider not pidgeon-holing yourself too much. If you choose Polearm Master, you might get a glaive, but you might also get a spear or a quarterstaff. If you throw on Great Weapon Master, only a few weapons will work with both, but you might also be pushing your DM's goodwill.
C) If they let you pick your own magic items, or trade for them in magic shops, go nuts. Don't expect this, though, unless you've cleared it with your DM.
This. In the campaign I’m in now, I haven’t locked in PAM because I don’t know if I’m going to a different magical weapon.
Yeah, I found myself in a similar situation, I planned on taking GWM, but luck gave me a magic shield and a +1 rapier, it doesn’t clash with my character concept so I’m rocking those instead.
The Hexblade is the only character that really can, and might even want to pull off Sword & Board.
This amuses me greatly.
Oh I want to do this now. The possibilities are really fun. And the multi class potential is great
@@alexinfinite7142
Hexadins do really well in particular, since the bonus action smite spells mean your bonus action can be used meaningfully anyways, you really want Warcaster for your early feats, and you aren't hurting for Pact of the Blade to get a 2 hander, so you can either bail out of Warlock early, or snag Talisman or Tome or something.
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I had a Sorcadin character Paladin 6/Sorcerer X that I wanted to be tanky (leaverage heavy armor and shield and the shield spell) as well as hard hitting (smites, dueling style and quicken spell on top of that for a bonus action booming blade from time to time). It worked out fairly well, and while multiclass options might not be in the remit, I think it was the first time I was legitimately 100% satisfied with my choice of longsword as a weapon (doesn't hurt for damage that I upgraded it later to a Flametongue).
usually i'm more of a lurker but since i was litterally working on something similar lately here's where i am (hope this can help and sorry for the long comment)
this build takes time to actually "fix" the longsword (the earliest you can go is lvl 16, maybe 13 depending on how much you want to be nitpicking but you won't be useless in the meantime)
the trick is all about being a hexblade and reach lvl 12 for the juicy lifedrinker invocation, this by itself gives you at least baseline dmg since...well hexblade IS the baseline dmg and eventually will grow to be on par if not better than a GWM by using lifedrinker+duelling+hex BA for a total of +10.5 without the -5 to hit and without having to spend ASI on feats (boosting our dmg and accuracy), so warlock 12 and fighter 1 is where you officially come online, at this point if you compare to a greatsword paladin you litterally don't miss anything, you got your extra attack, your smite and your extra on-hit (ofc you deal 1D8 vs 2D6), another level in fighter gives you action surge and 3 levels in sorcerer will quicken your booming blade (with 3 warlock 5th lvl slots you shouldn't run out of sorcery point anytime soon)
even tho it comes online superlate at that point the DPR for your longsword is comparable if not better than your average GWM and untill then you can just play it cool by EB from range and flavor it like "you're not worthy of my blade" or whatever you like.
the way i'm laying out the build (even tho i'm certain it can be widely improved) is:
Harengon Race (we gonna use medium armor so proficiency to initiative and 1d4 to dex save is juicy, also nice bonus action usage)
Urchin BG (i just like Urchin cause it let's you rogue without being a rogue, you can pick what you want tbh)
STR 8
DEX 16 (or 14)
CON 14 (or 16)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
(more on the weird DEX and CON numbers later)
lvl 1-2: fighter (con prof, fighting style, action surge)
untill level 3 you're bound to suck ass (unless you took the 16 DEX and use a rapier untill the moment is right), just take help and dodge actions in combat, use your CHA stat to be the party face and move to lvl 3, you could think of starting with sorcerer 3 (clockwork?) but imo if you want to get your hands on a sword before lvl 14 you want to start fighter
lvl 3-15: hexblade (invocations) pretty self explanatory, it automatically gives you baseline dmg at range and duelling+hex is +5.5 "featfree" dmg for no accuracy penalty when in melee, reaching hexblade 12 is your goal
lvl 15-20: at this point you can really do whatever you want, i like going sorcerer 6 for metamagic,spellslots and stuff but you do you
ASI management:
6. +cha
10. +cha
14 and 18 you can really jerk off and do what you want, that's why i assigned weird DEX and CON stats, you could bring CON to 20 (starting with a 16) or you could bring it to 18 and take the tough feat, what i like tho (even tho it might not be "optimal") is to take the 16 in DEX early and take Medium Armor Master and Shield Master, this feats are not great but paired with our harengon traits and urchin BG (+cha based PG with good ranged and melee DMG) makes us one of (if not THE) most versatile builds in the game (if you want to do the 18 con+tough feat thing hill dwarf is nice too as a race)
At that higher level, one hexblade dip build I had most fun comes on at 7 sorc/1 warlock with elven accuracy. The thing I found key was just bonus action greater invis (which you can twin). In most fights, it gives you full time advantage on all hits (triggering elven accuracy) and gives everyone disadvantage to hit you (letting you stay in melee longer). You attack with the melee cantrips and since you can burn warlock slots for sorcery points you can have 2 per round (and with the high hit chance your DPR is pretty respectable). It feels gish to cast a spell and then move into melee with my sword and swing for another hit. It's not a build that will probably last 8 combats but in a campaign where we were only doing 1-4 fights a day this felt really dynamic and powerful. Bonus action haste added a lot too.
@@farsticks the build keeps respectable dpr but that doesn't make the longsword better, you could do the same build and eventually take GWM and use a greatsword while the way i'm proposing the build makes it so that GWM -5 penalty is a detriment because of the high on-hit dmg (basically in my build if you substitute a greatsword and take GWM your dpr actually drops lower when using the -5/+10 unless against super low AC)
i know the way i wrote it sounds cocky af but english is not my first language and i don't know how to explain this properly
I once played around in a pvp server and I made a longsword wielding hexsorcadin and it was the strongest characteron the server. I was able to smite much more than a real character would be able to but I had a very strong ac and quickened booming blade filled my bonus action. And with smites my damage was comparable to a gwm character all while using elven accuracy
Tell me more about this pvp server?
@@Thorgard360 it was on r20 "isn't around anymore sadly" but it was fun
I need a weapon and shield fighter for a game a few years ago. He was going to be the ONLY front liner, so his ability to survive was crucial, hence the shield. I asked the GM if I could take the UA Brute as a subclass. He allowed it. In the game we were also allowed to commission enchantments on items (for an exorbitant cost). I got flaming put on my weapon. So I had my 1d8 base damage, a 1d6 for flaming and an extra damage die from brute (die depending on level). I got my strength to 20 quickly. The end result was that with my bonus attacks added, I was easily out damaging anyone else in the party.
"Long" sword SHOULD be among the most versatile (not just the mechanical feature for d10 damage) weapon in the game.
In a campaign I'm in now I'm using a sorcerer/hexlock. Even with those classes I'm still focusing on my weapon. Buffs, invocations, bonus action booming blade. I'm doing my all to deal damage. And with the decent defense of medium armor, I do well.
Using a long sword and shield with the dueling fighting style gives you an extra 10% chance to be missed and an average damage of 6.5 plus whatever other pluses you get. Using a great sword with great weapon fighting style makes your average damage 8.33, and a greataxe averages 7.33, plus whatever other pluses you get. Great Weapon Master might be a big boost, if you can hit with the -5 to attack. That's an extra 25% miss chance, though.
If straight up damage is the only thing you care about, then yeah, using a sword and shield isn't the best option, but you can't land hits if you're knocked out, and once you get into magical items, every plus on that shield is an extra 5% chance you're not getting hit, while every plus on the weapon is the same whether it's a longsword or two-handed weapon.
I don't think it's accurate to say that every +1 on the weapon is the same for a one-handed and two-handed weapon, though. Yes the extra damage is +1 either way but the +5% hit chance equals more average damage for a heavy-hitting weapon than a ligher one (what happens when you DO hit is different, and this changes the likelihood that happens.)
But I do agree with you that people are too focused on pure damage-per-round and ignore all other factors. Shields are really nice and that is meant to be what you are giving up to use a bigger weapon.
Here's the thing about Poisoner that you weren't thinking on. Because it's a bonus action to apply, and only applies to the first hit after applying it, it is effectively capped at once around. So you don't need enough for every hit. Just enough for once a round. Pretty paltry addition to damage though, being once a round, especially because they also need to fail a con save or it's just wasted.
Quick points to help feed The Algorithm.
Poison also can be done with plants so you can make a case for herbalism and using it can be a Poisoner Kit use. That means you can off load that onto a background as standard. (DM agreement as always).
Kensai do use a sword as an option even if they are a monk and getting dueling is painful outside of a dip but a 2 level dip would really need to be done. (Mention that for completeness not optimization because I have a feeling it is not going to be great).
Lastly and slightly off topic (but there is a point at the end), you could go two weapon long swords. Admittedly this requires a feat (Dual Wielder) and a fighting style to have any chance of being nearly effective and for it to be survivable you may need second defensive feat. But for completeness I have to mention it because the Drizzt in everyone’s head is saying what about just using two. And that is why there was no way to really use a long sword in the game as well as you can other weapons (IMHO). They expected this to be the power option for the long sword. I have a lot I want to say about two weapon fighting and dueling combat but I am not a UA-camr and better (and better looking) folk can do that.
See you next week and all the people that are traditional Bladesingers and followers of Eilistraee sing for your success to redeem the most iconic weapon in history in D&D.
The best idea I have is an old errata that got undone. Shield Master (Which we sometimes reflavor as just a larger gauntlet on the arm or a dueling cloak.) Using that bonus action to shove (ie knock prone) before the attack action. Used to be you could just take the bonus action before and that get advantage on melee attack rolls, but then it got changed around by an Errata. My table ignores that. You can use the bonus action to shove, but you are locked into the attack action too.
Re-skinning for flavor is always welcome at the table. I reference that gnome sorcerer with magic missile chickens all the time.
The other thing about Battle Smith is your steel defender offering a decent BA option, with the homunculus as a backup.
It’s decent at low levels. But by level 9 or so it’s probably going to feel pretty minor
A rogue with the dual wielder feat can attack with a long sword, then sneak attack with a finess weapon in the other hand, (optimally a rapier, but a short sword or knife isn't that much worse). It's an interesting build option, (if not exactly optimal) especially since it means building into strength.
I like the idea of pairing it with lizardfolk since, as a race, lizardfolk dont provide all their features to any PC that uses armor and doesn't have both stength *and* dexterity.
I mean the only real reason to use a longsword instead of two rapiers is to have access to more magical weapons, but maybe lean into that. Go with thief, get use magic device at 13 so you can ignore class restrictions, steal a paladin's holy avenger, and now you're the holy avenger swordmaster thief who occasionally bites people. Now there's a character concept!
Thanks a bunch for this video.
As a huge fan of martial shield using classes I am really saddened that it's damage options are as poor as they are.
Really looking forward to the next video and see which combos work and how.
Also worth mentioning for war cleric is getting divine favor. Bonus action cast, don't need to move to new targets after leaving bonus action for those extra bonus attacks
The biggest issue I've run into with sword and board builds is spellcasting. Unless you take warcaster it becomes a real issue to cast V,S,M spells
well only if you are casting and attacking in the same turn, otherwise you can just stow or draw your sword as necessary.
@@virplexer1428 you are then left unarmed for opportunity attacks. Additionally, there’s an issues with reaction spells. With no time to stash an object, even with war caster or a weapon/shield spellcasting focus, you still need a free hand for the somatic components if there’s no material component. So almost any reaction spell (other than silvery barbs) is out.
@@virplexer1428 sadly, doffing a shield takes an action. It's a little sticky to cast spells even with warcaster as you will need to constantly drop your sword for the material component.
I know it's not stellar damage or anything, but a source of poison is the poisonous snake familiar: just a 2d4, CON DC 10 halves, so it can add a d4 to the weapon. Far from being worth a feat, but it's useful on a thief build, as a rogue enjoys a familiar anyway and can use the poisoner's kit as a bonus action without needing the feat
We're kind of missing the forest for the trees. If you are using a long sword it's not because you aren't optimized, it's because you aren't optimized around weapon damage. To me the obvious use case is paladin (especially vengeance): wearing a shield lets you get a very high AC when combined with haste (even better with a hexblade splash for shield spell and cha to damage), you don't get a lot of feats anyway for GWF/PAM (elvin accuracy must be first, with a splash you aren't getting another feat until 9th or 10th, which you probably want to use on CHA), and your weapon damage is secondary to your smite damage. Using a longsword here makes sense.
Hex blade dip and swords bard could be worth a look. Both use charisma and seem to complement each other well and you get a lot of spells to bolster your fighting
I think you missed some major points here:
1- most of the options you are talking about can also apply to greatsword users and polearm masters, so there is no advantage to using a longsword over a greatsword.
2- The longsword allows you to wear a shield that a greatsword won't allows. This is the strenght of the longsword that needs to be exploited. So already here we are building a tankier character than a greatsword wielder
Since you are wearing a shield, you could use the feat shield master
• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
• If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.
So bonus action shove the target prone on the ground (nowhere does it says you need to do your attack action before the bonus action shove, it simply says you need to use the attack action during the turn, and we'll use the attack action after the bonus action shove during the same turn.
Since the target is prone, and a longsword is a melee weapon, you have the advantage to attack the target.
Bonus, all other melee allies will have advantage to attack your target.
if you manage to switch your attack stat to Dex, Int, wis or Cha, you can even benefit from elvan accuracy on the prone target
The other 2 dots increase your defence furthermore, making you even tankier.
So pushing the target prone, you are controlling one target, giving advantage to all your melee friends (including yourself)
Of course, it is dependent on you having an initiative order where the target isn't right after you so your ally can benefit from it.
It also relies on your allies to have decent melee options, but if you are trying to convince your DM to allow you to share your sprite poison, I think you can try to convince him to allow the good old "delay action" from the previous edition so you can place yourself right after the target.
SO yeah if your concept is a strong longsword user, sure take duelling, grab a hexblade level so you can pick up elven accuracy and the hex spell, but all those thing are just mechanical boost that do not really apply to the concept per say. But Shield Master, the ongsword warrior ramming into melee in front of his allies, bashing the target with his shield shoving it to the ground so himself with his allies can gang up on the target and shred it to pieces...
the shield master feat can turn a sword and board warrior into a great tank and team player, allowing you to turn ennemies prone to give advantage to your friends to hit them with your bonus action , take less damage from stuff like traps or dragons breath weapons etc... if you decide to mostly tank and not focus to much on damages, it can be really awesome
as a HEMA nerd there has always been some confusion in dnd as the "longsword" is often more representative of an arming sword. Even the examples you give near the start of this video contain a mix of one and two handed swords.
5e oversimplifies a lot of shit. A longsword is the buzzword for anything that includes a katana, falchion, etc.
I’m not a weapon’s expert, but the simplicity of 5e’s weapons drive me crazy. Especially when you consider how older editions had a shit ton of properties on their weapons.
@@Iceblade269 It's not just that. the rules for attacks of opportunity are retarded too. I can walk in a circle around you and that's fine but if I break and run you get a free shot. When I played with my HEMA club we basically re wrote the whole melee combat rules and just brought back power attack as a feat.
Artificer: Armorer
Armor Model
Beginning at 3rd level, you can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it.
Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls.
My personal HB for weapons is as follows
Vicious (Battle Axe, Greataxe, Flail, Glaive, Halberd) -
- On a critical hit the target becomes frightened until they take an disengage action to steady themselves, or an inspiration, including bardic, can be spent to end this effect.
Destructive (Flails, Maces, Hammers)
- narrative armour damage, on a critical hit the target becomes stunned until end of their next turn, they may take a level of exhaustion to end this effect.
Balanced (Swords, Scimitar)
- Once per round you may give Disadvantage to an Opportunity Attack against you, that is within your equipped balanced weapons reach. (Defensive)
Unbalanced(Axes, Hammers, Maces)
- harder to deflect, gain advantage to Disarming Attack (Manoeuvre) and Disarm Actions (optional DMG rule I allow).
Close Quarters (Daggers, Shortsword, Hand Axe, Light Hammer)
- Melee Attacks made with these weapons gain advantage against grappled targets and whilst grappled Close Quarter attacks have advantage against the grappler.
Lunge (Rapier, Greatsword, Pike, Quarterstaff, Spear)
- additional non-consistent reach, you may treat your weapons reach during opportunity attacks as an additional +5 ft.
Polearm (Glaive, Halberd, Pike, Quarterstaff, Spear)
- better area control, while wielding a Polearm, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon.
(If you choose Polearm Mastery you have advantage when you make an attack in this way)
Up Front (Shields)
- once per round whilst you wield a shield you may negate a single opportunity non-critical weapon attack, delivered by a creature of no more than one size category larger than you; that targets only you;
- In addition you may sacrifice your shield to negate the non-damage effects of a weapon attack (natural, equipped, and other). A shield sacrificed in this way is considered damaged and cannot be equipped for the AC bonus, but can be fixed with the mending spell or smithy tool skill check.
... I also have a HB Longsword called the Bastard Sword, when wielded with Two Hands the Bastard Sword has the Finese property.
I honestly feel like a Longsword should be treated as having the Finesse property when it's used with two hands. As someone who practices longsword fighting irl I can say that it's absolutely possible to wield one effectively despite being relatively weak, and that's even with the "real" longswords that are supposed to be two-handed; those in D&D would be even lighter. In fact, it's probably even better suited for weaker individuals than many other dex-based weapons like shortswords, daggers and longbows since the two-handed grip gives you more than enough extra control to overcome the weight difference compared to something like a shortsword, while the relative reach makes it far safer than a dagger.
This would also solve the discrepancy pointed out elsewhere in the comments about Rogues and Elves both explicitly gaining longsword profciency, clearly because it's supposed to fit their themes, while neither of them is well-suited to using it. Sadly since Bladesingers can't use a weapon two-handed during bladesong it doesn't solve the issue of many weapons specifically associated with Bladesinger styles in the SCAG being terrible options for them.
I generally go for longsword on support paladin. Damage isn't your main thing so low damage doesn't hurt ~as~ bad, you're feat/asi starved so not having a good weapon feat frees up a slot for other stuff you need anyway (or lets you play a race other than vuman or custom origin), and duelist/divine smite/improved divine smite lets your longsword deal some damage, when you need it to at least. Also dips/multiclasses well with either hexblade for hexblade's curse or sorcerer for quickened booming blade, which can help.
One point. Unless I am mistaken, Feats are an optional rule. I know that almost everyone does use them, but the fact that they are not in the default rule set makes the longsword’s shortcomings less egregious. In fact, I am in a campaign right now with significantly restricted access to feats. They probably included Feats for other weapons because, prior to those, almost everyone would only use longswords, if they could. They just overcorrected.
For me, longsword is nice because of versatile. I like keeping track of components, and it means I can do a two-handed grip on my longsword while still getting access to spells.
Really, I think PAM would still be a really fair Feat choice if you removed the BA attack. Opportunity attacks on an enemy entering your weapon’s range is still a solid boost. You could then make a “Medium Weapon Master” Feat with a BA pommel attack for 1d4 and maybe add in a Parry ability because 1) The Parry feat sucks, I have never seen it used and 2) It only works on Finesse weapons. This expands it to work on Longswords, Battle Axes, and Warhammers to make them work better. It also makes Dueling better since that +2 damage will apply to your BA attack while not removing or negating the power of SS or GWM. PAM takes a hit, but I think it’ll survive as it combos EXTREMELY well with both Sentinel and GWM.
Can you explain why darkness has its own problems? Sure, it might interfere with your party, but there are workarounds for that. You can stow the darkened object in a bowl after your attack. You can make sure your entire party has blind sense or Devil’s Sight. You can only cast Darkness when you’re in an open area and it won’t fall on your teammates’s position. Just like any spell, you need to know the right time and situation to cast it, but when used in the right context, it can shift the balance of a fight.
Going back a couple of decades, when DnD gave us weapon specialization/mastery, fighters were able to do some pretty nice things when attacking with a melee weapon, but that was across the board. When DnD got rid of weapon specialization/mastery rapiers came in to play. Giving players a dex based long bladed option. Personally, I would love it if weapon specialization/mastery was brought back into the game. It would need to be fixed, but the game needs it.
At my table fighters of a certain strength or higher can wield heavy weapons with a single hand. Hey, it's a Fantasy Role Playing Game. As long as home rules are applied in a constant manner and maintain game continuity, then go for it.